Deb, I love how you get to the core of the issue! No BS, no extraneous fluff, just the physics of it. Yet, you are able to translate those physics into understandable, applicable, actions. Keep up the great work!!!
Sing it sister! About time someone who has real experience on old and new skis tells it like is. I for one who started in the early 70’s , appreciates someone who knows the touchstones ( like the C-4’s!) and intimately understands the difference between those and a modern ski. New skis are different, but not a new species, just a product of evolution.
Great video! On the topic of older styles of skis and turning techniques, it would be really awesome to see another video of you and Franz, in which Franz gives some tips for his classic short turns / wedeln technique. In the video you did with him and Bode Miller a couple of years ago, those snappy short turns from Franz were a thing of beauty! I have watched that video many times and can't seem to get enough of those turns. A deeper discussion about that style would be awesome! Love all of your videos!
Well considered, in-depth discussion on the nuance of the effects of shaped skis, camber, gravity and pressure! This turned me into a ski dork (I’ve never been one to get sucked into the tech side but this may have changed me)
Thank you for another great video. C4 comps made my day as well. Torsional stiffness improvement is hand in hand with the shaped skis of today helping translate your pressure efforts with instant and accurate results. :-)
Maaaan. I still find it amaaaaaazing people that should know better still talk about 'inside ski' or 'outside ski'. Modern skiing is equal pressure on both at all times. Only now it is one foot in front of the other as you commit to the turn and during the turn.
Bro what are you talking about? The outside ski should have 80 - 90% of your weight on it. Everyone who knows anything about skiing knows this. If you put equal weight on both skiis and you're ripping down a steep pitch, you're just going to fall uphill. I've done it many times. Weight on the downhill/outside ski. Always. This is not to say you do nothing with the inside ski. Quite the opposite actually. You have to manage edge pressure on that one as well, but you have to apply different techniques to get it to tip up on edge. Your inside ski has a lot less weight on it which makes it prone to wondering around during your turns. It's essental to manage the inside ski just as much as the outside one. It's about shifting that weight from turn to turn. Edge to edge. Finding that rhythm. I can understand the sentiment behind your statement. It IS about equilibrium, but only during transition between turns. I think it's important to make that distinction.
Great info for a lot of skiers out there !! Always great to be able to use G forces to be able to pressure the ski from tip to tail. ( Skis with a lot of tip and tail rocker are not a favorite of mine ) Thanks for sharing !!
Love the ongoing conversation on this Deb. In the context of "managing forces", I'll also toss out the importance of ski stiffness as another factor along side camber and sidecut that impacts the forces we're dealing with. The strong rebound of coming out of a deep carve on a stiffer ski (the few times my weak old legs can actually do it) can be thrilling when I'm not caught completely off guard by the power of it.
I feel like my 50+ year old technique still works on today's modern ski equipment. I would not take a new skier on my technique journey, but I can still arc a pretty nice turn even using that power step in transition - setting the new edge. Ol' Dogs I guess.
Why camber though? I never really thought about it but this video prompted me to. Why not a flat ski that gives you instant access to the full direct without having to produce the ski? Doesn’t have to do with the ability to unweight the ski in the transition? Great video as always.
Camber shape is necessary to maintain even pressure along the whole ski length while the whole load stands in the middle. Without it, the tip and the tail will never bite into the snow. If you ever tried carving turns on the so-called "easily turning" rocker-shaped skis, you'd instantly understand. The idea of camber predates alpine skis as such.
Love your videos Deb. I do question the concept of the skis returning substantial energy when the edges are released. My understanding is that the skis will only generate a force of 10 to 15 pounds when they are unloaded. The large force that we feel and love when we unload our skis comes from our body’s loaded soft tissues, like our tendons and muscles. If you put your skis across two saw horses and bend them into a reverse camber and then unweight them you will notice that they don’t return to their original camber with high forces. Sprinters do not propel themselves with rapid muscle contraction. They propel themselves with loaded tendons (with the load derived from contracting muscles). I’ve been educating myself on this concept over the last few years. I previously believed the rebound of the ski was the primary force during the transition. Now I believe it is from our loaded tissues.
I take it you have never been trampolined off the snow and hill by your skis? Like a bucking bronco, this happens. It never happened to my in the 80s, I was never able to generate that kind of rebound, but it has happened to me enough times in modern equipment to scare the s..t out of me😉
Would it be accurate to say that your average skier would lack the leg strength (because of the energy drain & fatigue truly loading a ski generates, effects the rest of the day, also to fully commitment to loading the Ski in fear of losing the edge? Then not being able to experience that true unloading of the Ski that powers you into the next movement?
Gauged pressure manipulation is the only fundamental. All other descriptions of tasks, skill, force or action are defined by gauge pressure manipulation. edging, steering, turning, rotating are affects of pressure management/ gauged pressure manipulation. Inertial frames of reference acrobatics not included in gauge pressure, Special Relativity was made for that.
Deb: "... you apply a little more pressure now we're going to start bending an arc, apply more pressure you're going to bend the ski more and you are going to bend a deeper arc, it's like the difference between a big C and a little C..." Me: "Well, it may feel that way, but in reality, the situation is somewhat different." As soon as the bent edge of the ski touches the snow completely-not just the tip and tail, but also the section under the binding-the ski cannot be bent any further, no matter how much additional pressure is applied to it. The pressure required to bend a ski far enough is usually not particularly high; body weight, i.e., 1g, or even less is completely sufficient. If you put the ski on its tail, hold the tip with one hand, and press against the binding plate with the other hand, you can bend a ski very far, and you would hardly be able to press more than, for example, 70 kg with one arm. To bend a ski more during the turn, you have to increase the edge angle instead. This creates free space under the middle section of the ski edge, allowing the ski to bend further under sufficient load than before with the lower edge angle. This is possible up to the point where the edge is in contact with the snow again along its entire length. Thus, for every ski, depending on its sidecut, there is a corresponding curve radius for each edge angle, always assuming that the entire curve is exclusively carved, with no drift. But it is not just the gravitational force of the COM that bends an edged ski. During a turn, a centrifugal force is created due to the inertia of the COM, which acts towards the outside of the turn. The ski is always bent by a force that is perpendicular to the ski surface, partly due to the body's weight and partly due to the effect of the centrifugal force. The greater the edge angle, the greater the proportion of centrifugal force and the smaller the proportion of weight. The higher the speed and the smaller the turn radius, the greater the centrifugal force will be. However, the centrifugal force also balances the significant inclination necessary for a high edge angle and the associated short turn radius. The steeper the incline, the higher the centrifugal force must be to achieve this dynamic balance, preventing the skier from falling over or at least having to support themselves on the inside ski. Accordingly, high edge angles always result in high centrifugal forces and thus strong forces that can bend the ski. In giant slalom, this can be two to three times the body weight, which the leg of the outside ski alone essentially must hold. So, it feels as if you are pressing extremely hard against the ski during tight turns, but this is not actually necessary to bend the ski. Rather, these forces arise automatically when you make a tight turn at high speed, with a high edge angle and the necessary high inclination of the body. You could also describe it the other way around: When you make a tight turn at high speed, large centrifugal forces arise. To avoid tipping over and being thrown out of the turn, it is necessary to shift the COM significantly to the inside of the turn, i.e., a strong incline. This is the only way to balance out the forces that arise. And, usefully, the incline and the associated high edge angle are exactly what you need to bend the ski so far that a small turn radius is even possible. Or, here is a third way of looking at it: The high inclination provokes the necessary centrifugal force to maintain dynamic balance. This body position is essential to create a correspondingly high edge angle, which in turn is a prerequisite for significantly bending the ski. The resulting tight turn generates the high centrifugal forces needed to balance the body position. A bit like a cat that keeps turning in circles because it is chasing its tail.
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I hope you're not annoyed, I definitely didn't mean to lecture you here, my long text with over-explanation is ment to be more of a question disguised as an assertion. Until not so long ago I always assumed that you could actually bend the ski even further by putting more pressure on it, and especially on the front part of the ski. Until the algorithm threw the following at me: - "HOW TO BEND A SKI | More pressure or more edge?", Paul Lorenz - "Tom Gellie. Indoor lecture, Wanaka NZ", Rookie Academy - Ski Camps and Instructor Training - Know your skis to be a better pilot. Tom Gellie Indoor Lecture.- "Hand Drag Drill For High Edge Angle Carving", Tom Gellie - Big Picture Skiing - "How to Ski Groomers - with Performance", Joshua Duncan-Smith It definitely works brilliantly and puts a big grin on my face every time😎
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Thanks for calling me out. What I'm attempting (unsuccessfully) to describe; I have more edge I can carve using a 181 or 184 modern shaped ski - a good skier has more edge carving into the snow than say...a vintage 207 or 210 Rossi SM or Acryglass. I keep several vintage pairs of race skis, and find that the sweet spots for carving are shorter than modern skis. It's like the top end and bottom ends aren't able to hold equally in edge pressure compared to the edge pressure you can drive underfoot .
@@franzalaska9512 the technology differs in significant ways allowing for a completely different type of turn as I referred to in the video. However old and new skis have camber and side cut which means we are dealing with forces in both cases. The new skis are far superior that’s for sure😉
Deb, in my humble opinion, the camber has a little to do with the propelling energy directly... the camber helps with bending the ski for a smaller arc. And it is the edging and releasing the edges that propels you. Similar to lipping out a putt when golfing. The ball accelerates as it lips out of the hole (edging and releasing). Thoughts?
Deb, I love how you get to the core of the issue! No BS, no extraneous fluff, just the physics of it. Yet, you are able to translate those physics into understandable, applicable, actions. Keep up the great work!!!
Thank you
Best informational / instructional videos on the web. Like a good coach at anything - don’t over complicated it. Brilliant vid
Thanks! Spread the word😉
Sing it sister!
About time someone who has real experience on old and new skis tells it like is. I for one who started in the early 70’s , appreciates someone who knows the touchstones ( like the C-4’s!) and intimately understands the difference between those and a modern ski. New skis are different, but not a new species, just a product of evolution.
Nice💪👍
One of your better technical videos.
What a great video, as usual Deb, thanks a lot, indeed, for giving up this great thiking and debating of the ski forces, appreciated 🙏🏽
Great video! On the topic of older styles of skis and turning techniques, it would be really awesome to see another video of you and Franz, in which Franz gives some tips for his classic short turns / wedeln technique. In the video you did with him and Bode Miller a couple of years ago, those snappy short turns from Franz were a thing of beauty! I have watched that video many times and can't seem to get enough of those turns. A deeper discussion about that style would be awesome! Love all of your videos!
Here is another one for ya😉
Skiing with Legends and the White Pass Turn
th-cam.com/video/TY76J-50QPA/w-d-xo.html
@ Amazing! I could watch him ski all day!
Well considered, in-depth discussion on the nuance of the effects of shaped skis, camber, gravity and pressure! This turned me into a ski dork (I’ve never been one to get sucked into the tech side but this may have changed me)
Love it
Brilliant video Deb- force mgmt : gravity - physics - camber - sidecut 💥💥💥🚀
Pressure is so easy to use yet improved my skiing more than anything else. Your ski lesson videos are great.
Great opening about bold statements :)
“Sweeping generalizations make for the best conversations”
this is world changing content. keep it up!
Thank you for another great video. C4 comps made my day as well.
Torsional stiffness improvement is hand in hand with the shaped skis of today helping translate your pressure efforts with instant and accurate results.
:-)
One of your best videos! Simply said, Forces 🎿
Maaaan. I still find it amaaaaaazing people that should know better still talk about 'inside ski' or 'outside ski'. Modern skiing is equal pressure on both at all times. Only now it is one foot in front of the other as you commit to the turn and during the turn.
Wow
Bro what are you talking about? The outside ski should have 80 - 90% of your weight on it. Everyone who knows anything about skiing knows this. If you put equal weight on both skiis and you're ripping down a steep pitch, you're just going to fall uphill. I've done it many times. Weight on the downhill/outside ski. Always.
This is not to say you do nothing with the inside ski. Quite the opposite actually. You have to manage edge pressure on that one as well, but you have to apply different techniques to get it to tip up on edge. Your inside ski has a lot less weight on it which makes it prone to wondering around during your turns. It's essental to manage the inside ski just as much as the outside one. It's about shifting that weight from turn to turn. Edge to edge. Finding that rhythm. I can understand the sentiment behind your statement. It IS about equilibrium, but only during transition between turns. I think it's important to make that distinction.
Great info for a lot of skiers out there !!
Always great to be able to use G forces to be able to pressure the ski from tip to tail. ( Skis with a lot of tip and tail rocker are not a favorite of mine )
Thanks for sharing !!
Love the ongoing conversation on this Deb. In the context of "managing forces", I'll also toss out the importance of ski stiffness as another factor along side camber and sidecut that impacts the forces we're dealing with. The strong rebound of coming out of a deep carve on a stiffer ski (the few times my weak old legs can actually do it) can be thrilling when I'm not caught completely off guard by the power of it.
Yes construction materials and stiffness are definitely part of the equation. Thanks for the comment
Deb, you rock!
Amazing! Thank you!!
I feel like my 50+ year old technique still works on today's modern ski equipment. I would not take a new skier on my technique journey, but I can still arc a pretty nice turn even using that power step in transition - setting the new edge. Ol' Dogs I guess.
Why camber though? I never really thought about it but this video prompted me to. Why not a flat ski that gives you instant access to the full direct without having to produce the ski? Doesn’t have to do with the ability to unweight the ski in the transition?
Great video as always.
Camber shape is necessary to maintain even pressure along the whole ski length while the whole load stands in the middle. Without it, the tip and the tail will never bite into the snow. If you ever tried carving turns on the so-called "easily turning" rocker-shaped skis, you'd instantly understand. The idea of camber predates alpine skis as such.
Very informative video.
Love your videos Deb. I do question the concept of the skis returning substantial energy when the edges are released. My understanding is that the skis will only generate a force of 10 to 15 pounds when they are unloaded. The large force that we feel and love when we unload our skis comes from our body’s loaded soft tissues, like our tendons and muscles. If you put your skis across two saw horses and bend them into a reverse camber and then unweight them you will notice that they don’t return to their original camber with high forces. Sprinters do not propel themselves with rapid muscle contraction. They propel themselves with loaded tendons (with the load derived from contracting muscles). I’ve been educating myself on this concept over the last few years. I previously believed the rebound of the ski was the primary force during the transition. Now I believe it is from our loaded tissues.
I take it you have never been trampolined off the snow and hill by your skis? Like a bucking bronco, this happens. It never happened to my in the 80s, I was never able to generate that kind of rebound, but it has happened to me enough times in modern equipment to scare the s..t out of me😉
Would it be accurate to say that your average skier would lack the leg strength (because of the energy drain & fatigue truly loading a ski generates, effects the rest of the day, also to fully commitment to loading the Ski in fear of losing the edge? Then not being able to experience that true unloading of the Ski that powers you into the next movement?
Awesome thumbnail graphic.
Similarities? You still need 2 skis 😁 Cheers Deb have a snowy season 😁
Gauged pressure manipulation is the only fundamental. All other descriptions of tasks, skill, force or action are defined by gauge pressure manipulation. edging, steering, turning, rotating are affects of pressure management/ gauged pressure manipulation. Inertial frames of reference acrobatics not included in gauge pressure, Special Relativity was made for that.
Flex.
Deb: "... you apply a little more pressure now we're going to start bending an arc, apply more pressure you're going to bend the ski more and you are going to bend a deeper arc, it's like the difference between a big C and a little C..."
Me: "Well, it may feel that way, but in reality, the situation is somewhat different."
As soon as the bent edge of the ski touches the snow completely-not just the tip and tail, but also the section under the binding-the ski cannot be bent any further, no matter how much additional pressure is applied to it.
The pressure required to bend a ski far enough is usually not particularly high; body weight, i.e., 1g, or even less is completely sufficient. If you put the ski on its tail, hold the tip with one hand, and press against the binding plate with the other hand, you can bend a ski very far, and you would hardly be able to press more than, for example, 70 kg with one arm.
To bend a ski more during the turn, you have to increase the edge angle instead. This creates free space under the middle section of the ski edge, allowing the ski to bend further under sufficient load than before with the lower edge angle. This is possible up to the point where the edge is in contact with the snow again along its entire length. Thus, for every ski, depending on its sidecut, there is a corresponding curve radius for each edge angle, always assuming that the entire curve is exclusively carved, with no drift.
But it is not just the gravitational force of the COM that bends an edged ski. During a turn, a centrifugal force is created due to the inertia of the COM, which acts towards the outside of the turn. The ski is always bent by a force that is perpendicular to the ski surface, partly due to the body's weight and partly due to the effect of the centrifugal force. The greater the edge angle, the greater the proportion of centrifugal force and the smaller the proportion of weight.
The higher the speed and the smaller the turn radius, the greater the centrifugal force will be. However, the centrifugal force also balances the significant inclination necessary for a high edge angle and the associated short turn radius. The steeper the incline, the higher the centrifugal force must be to achieve this dynamic balance, preventing the skier from falling over or at least having to support themselves on the inside ski.
Accordingly, high edge angles always result in high centrifugal forces and thus strong forces that can bend the ski. In giant slalom, this can be two to three times the body weight, which the leg of the outside ski alone essentially must hold. So, it feels as if you are pressing extremely hard against the ski during tight turns, but this is not actually necessary to bend the ski. Rather, these forces arise automatically when you make a tight turn at high speed, with a high edge angle and the necessary high inclination of the body.
You could also describe it the other way around: When you make a tight turn at high speed, large centrifugal forces arise. To avoid tipping over and being thrown out of the turn, it is necessary to shift the COM significantly to the inside of the turn, i.e., a strong incline. This is the only way to balance out the forces that arise. And, usefully, the incline and the associated high edge angle are exactly what you need to bend the ski so far that a small turn radius is even possible.
Or, here is a third way of looking at it: The high inclination provokes the necessary centrifugal force to maintain dynamic balance. This body position is essential to create a correspondingly high edge angle, which in turn is a prerequisite for significantly bending the ski. The resulting tight turn generates the high centrifugal forces needed to balance the body position.
A bit like a cat that keeps turning in circles because it is chasing its tail.
Thank you
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I hope you're not annoyed, I definitely didn't mean to lecture you here, my long text with over-explanation is ment to be more of a question disguised as an assertion. Until not so long ago I always assumed that you could actually bend the ski even further by putting more pressure on it, and especially on the front part of the ski. Until the algorithm threw the following at me:
- "HOW TO BEND A SKI | More pressure or more edge?", Paul Lorenz
- "Tom Gellie. Indoor lecture, Wanaka NZ", Rookie Academy - Ski Camps and Instructor Training
- Know your skis to be a better pilot. Tom Gellie Indoor Lecture.- "Hand Drag Drill For High Edge Angle Carving", Tom Gellie - Big Picture Skiing
- "How to Ski Groomers - with Performance", Joshua Duncan-Smith
It definitely works brilliantly and puts a big grin on my face every time😎
Who’s that badass at 2:10?
Ha!!!!!!! 💪💪
You mean yours truly 😉
Of course there's a difference - from what I see, today's ski doesn't have bindings.
HA!!!!!! 💪💪
Skiing is the most fun you can have with your clothes still on.
Ha!!!!!!!
The older skis don't give you carve at the very tip or tail. The length of the carve is actually longer than vintage non shaped skis.
What you wrote is confusing? What are you saying? That vintage skis don’t carve, don’t have sidecut? That is not so.
@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Thanks for calling me out. What I'm attempting (unsuccessfully) to describe; I have more edge I can carve using a 181 or 184 modern shaped ski - a good skier has more edge carving into the snow than say...a vintage 207 or 210 Rossi SM or Acryglass. I keep several vintage pairs of race skis, and find that the sweet spots for carving are shorter than modern skis. It's like the top end and bottom ends aren't able to hold equally in edge pressure compared to the edge pressure you can drive underfoot .
More edge=Longer edge
@@franzalaska9512 the technology differs in significant ways allowing for a completely different type of turn as I referred to in the video. However old and new skis have camber and side cut which means we are dealing with forces in both cases. The new skis are far superior that’s for sure😉
Deb, in my humble opinion, the camber has a little to do with the propelling energy directly... the camber helps with bending the ski for a smaller arc. And it is the edging and releasing the edges that propels you. Similar to lipping out a putt when golfing. The ball accelerates as it lips out of the hole (edging and releasing). Thoughts?
Yes, camber would have to do with bending a deeper arc.