I think pre exhaustion is more of an activation set. It’s getting that mind muscle connection so you can sort of feel that particular muscle working and that does work. Doing one arm lat pull downs and pull overs before a pull down. You activate your lats so you know what you’re stimulating. But if you go straight into a pull down especially if you’re not experienced you can’t feel it working as much. Same with shoulder press. So lateral raise before then shoulder press I bet more people will say they feel there shoulders working more. Hasn’t really worked for me on chest tho. It works the other way round as well. Doing a compound first then an isolation can do the same effect. That’s why I like mountain dog training because you have an activation phase, compound phase then a burn out phase.
The image at 5:00 suggests preexhaust changes the nature of the exercise from a monoarticular one to a more biarticular by recruiting the rectus femoris distally, along with the vastus lateralis to help out. Considering there are less convoluted ways to favor the rectus femoris, that don't involve loading your spine, such as with sissy squats with the hips extended, pre-exhausting squats with leg extensions seems a laborious way to accomplish the same, and one with a higher injury risk, since you're coming to a compound exercise with prior accumulated fatigue. There are also studies looking at flies before barbell bench showing lessening of prime mover participation, pecs, by having the secondary movers, triceps and front delts, take more of the work, precisely what your squats preexhaust graph suggests. There are easier more direct ways to work the triceps and delts. It seems to me that preexhaust is a fool's errand, an archaic strategy from a primitive time in training history. And I say this as someone who preformed it faithfully for years. Personally, I think, and I did also try this, post exhaust a more meaningful investment, especially tacked on to the last compound set, that is only if you feel it's not your pecs that give out on the bench, for instance. But prior to that, I'd rethink exercise selection and or look into exercise modification to fit individual biomechanics before resorting to any super-setting modality, since in this regard pre and post exhausting are just band aid solutions for bad programming.
@@FlowHighPerformance1 such as working around an injury, as you suggest in the video? Can't see why sissy squats wouldn't lend themselves to that too, and at a less injury risk, as well as more practical seeing you wouodnt be hogging 2 work stations. But I suppose preexhaust might be of benefit, if you don't want to lose neural efficiency on the squat pattern, but this video is about hypertrophy not powerlifting. Besides, hypertrophy is a forgiving adaptation, and lacks a specificity component, as you've pointed out, I'm sure many times.
Exactly right, sissy squat would be another alternative. What if you don't have a sissy squat machine at your gym? Point is that it is a potential strategy to use at your disposal, but there are many other strategies you can use too. If you don't want to use Pre-Fatigue, then don't do it 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 well, i see your point but on the chance of being pedantic you don't need a machine for sissy squats. True sissy squats are performed without equipment on the floor. Still, it's just a tool, albeit not one I can see myself using or suggesting, but perhaps some scenario might pop up where I can use it.
I like that the target muscle is already pumped and the following compound movement can be done with lighter weight, increasing stability - like example you gave about lower back and squats.
Excellent video. I've been disappointed with the "anti" pre-fatigue information that's out there which greatly misinterprets the data. You are the first to do the subject justice. Pre-fatigue makes so much intuitive sense. It definitely has its place over a muscle building journey. How many pre-sets would you recommend?
Thanks, glad the video was useful. 1-2 Pre-Fatigue sets should be sufficient I'd say. You could also just change the order of exercises in a session to naturally experience some pre fatigue. Eg. Do all you working sets of leg extensions before squats 👍
How about method "back to back" eg single joint- , compound, single joint. Flys-press-flys. Got that from late Mr America Don Ross. Works like a dream.
Fatigue training is bread and butter for explosive athletes. Having heavy legs but still being able to produce the same power is what I’ve gotten out of it. As a goalkeeper it helps keep ur legs fresh during high intensity training allowing you to focus more Instead of thinking Ab ur heavy legs.
I have hard times activating quads during squats, no matter how controlled the reps are, I will not feel my quads as activated as I would like it to be. That's why I pre exhaust them with leg extensions. I don't do too much volume, just like 2 sets with a 10 isometric for a few reps just to get some blood on my quads and then I feel them very well during my squats. That's the only time I use this strategy.
True. Renaissance Periodization, Flow High Performance, JM7thlevel and elitefts are some of the best strength and fitness channels on TH-cam in my opinion...
@@FlowHighPerformance1 I competed in bodybuilding decades ago and we (pros and top amateurs) never did supersets. The same with pre exhaust sets, however your points were well taken and well presented re pre exhausted sets. They absolutely make sense when you’re battling injuries. I do leg extensions prior to squats, especially due to my training age.
5:02 not really different? Am I reading this graph incorrectly? What about the rectus femoris (distal) and vastus lateralis (distal)? Genuine question.
Yes, you could make the argument that regional hypertrophy was different in some cases, but overall, there was not a significant benefit for either training method
Have you seen the other type of pre exhaustive sets where You might perform a dumbell shoulder press before a bench press to pre exhaust the anterior delt The idea being that the subsequent bench press would rely more on the chest due to its ‘fresher’ state
@@kamprikorn bro your limiting factor is delt so your shoulder fatiuge causes failure. But if you pre exhoust chest your chest will going to failure before your delt. It is a chest exercise. Not delt. Delt shouldnt failure
Great video. I would love to know how pre-exhaustion factors in when you isolate a muscle first (curls/ biceps) so you can force isolation in a muscle in the next exercise (back rows/lats)
Yes, this is an interesting thought. I would assume this may have a negative effect on muscle growth, as it may limit overall workout for the back muscles 🤔
For some movements, I’ve found pre fatigue to do the opposite. For example, on pull days I may pre fatigue my biceps before doing rows. That helps me move the weight with my back instead of my arms since they’re already whooped.
my old account was deleted so I forgot your channel name and couldn't find it for months....IM SO GLAD I FOUND IT. RESUBBED. I love your presentation and art style of information!
I use pre exhaustion for chest because it definitely helps. I don’t know the parameters of these studies? Studies are usually so absurd when you actually read them. But in my experience the pectoral muscles is very strong, and quite hard to target without so much deltoid and tricep activation taking over especially in people without such great mind muscle connections. So if you isolate the pec before a pressing movement, even without the mind muscle connection being up to par, you can still get the pec to work enough to make it grow. And in doing so create more of a mind connection. These studies are silly really, they have a few people, either complete beginners or very advanced lifters and they do some lifts and compare rails using odd ways of testing them. No long term stuff and no follow ups. New techniques usually help advanced lifter for example, changing something slightly from the norm. But yeah, pre exhaustion does work, I know it does from experience. I’ve trained a few people that couldn’t grow their pecs at all, very rarely felt them during or after exercise. When I started to pre exhaustion them, they instantly felt the pecs activate and got muscle soreness afterwards. There were a few tweaks in form as well, but that’s with everyone. Pre exhaustion particularly with the chest is a must, it really is. I don’t use it in any other muscle group, the pec is the only one because it’s hard to target and has weaker muscle around sit that will fail before it gets enough work.
In 1986 I had an opportunity to train with late Mr America Don Ross. He had the method which he called "back to back ". We would do single joint exercise following compound movement and than again single joint exercise. Eg flys-chest press- flyes. All nonstop. Method is amazing for hypertrophy doesn't matter what research says. The amazing thing is that after that I haven't seen anyone who would do that or even heard about it. I use it for myself and my clients for years.
Hmm... I could see this being useful in a calisthenics context. I don't have access to much all beyond my body weight when I'm forced to work out at home. Would it be good then, for example, to pre-fatigue quads by doing AMRAP body weight squats before proceeding to do working sets of pistol squats? Or doing a set of push ups to failure before doing tricep sets?
It definitely does. I do it and have done it for 6 months as of this comment and before I did it my glutes barely got sore from exercises that involved glutes. Now I squeeze my cheeks as hard as I can 3 sets for 15 to 20 seconds beforehand and now they get sore
Isn’t this kind of method affecting badly at force production? I would say it’s good for hypertrophy, but it could generate force deficit due to accumulate a high volume of training with a low speed execution due to high muscular fatigue .
EVERYONE DOES THIS, AND ITS NOT NESSESARY. YOU DONT NEED TO BRING THE SCIENCE JUST SAY THE THING. OTHER WISE PEOPLES MINDS WONDER INSTEAD OF UNDERSTANDING THE POINT. SORRY FOR CAPS, I DO DATA ENTRY
@@FlowHighPerformance1 it’s proven to reduce activation of the target muscle. Also makes you use less load, less reps , less technical ability, lesss proximity to true failure(not just fatigue)( you could run 10k before legs and be fatigued…
@@danwright658 listen boy. If you fatigue your triceps and do bench presses, you will find that your chest has not grown at all. because when you go to failure, there are maybe 7 more reps before your chests go to failure. so this is a triceps exercise because your triceps failure. It shouldn't be this hard to understand bro.
I think pre exhaustion is more of an activation set. It’s getting that mind muscle connection so you can sort of feel that particular muscle working and that does work. Doing one arm lat pull downs and pull overs before a pull down. You activate your lats so you know what you’re stimulating. But if you go straight into a pull down especially if you’re not experienced you can’t feel it working as much. Same with shoulder press. So lateral raise before then shoulder press I bet more people will say they feel there shoulders working more. Hasn’t really worked for me on chest tho. It works the other way round as well. Doing a compound first then an isolation can do the same effect. That’s why I like mountain dog training because you have an activation phase, compound phase then a burn out phase.
The image at 5:00 suggests preexhaust changes the nature of the exercise from a monoarticular one to a more biarticular by recruiting the rectus femoris distally, along with the vastus lateralis to help out.
Considering there are less convoluted ways to favor the rectus femoris, that don't involve loading your spine, such as with sissy squats with the hips extended, pre-exhausting squats with leg extensions seems a laborious way to accomplish the same, and one with a higher injury risk, since you're coming to a compound exercise with prior accumulated fatigue.
There are also studies looking at flies before barbell bench showing lessening of prime mover participation, pecs, by having the secondary movers, triceps and front delts, take more of the work, precisely what your squats preexhaust graph suggests. There are easier more direct ways to work the triceps and delts.
It seems to me that preexhaust is a fool's errand, an archaic strategy from a primitive time in training history. And I say this as someone who preformed it faithfully for years.
Personally, I think, and I did also try this, post exhaust a more meaningful investment, especially tacked on to the last compound set, that is only if you feel it's not your pecs that give out on the bench, for instance.
But prior to that, I'd rethink exercise selection and or look into exercise modification to fit individual biomechanics before resorting to any super-setting modality, since in this regard pre and post exhausting are just band aid solutions for bad programming.
It may be useful in certain contexts, that's all 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 such as working around an injury, as you suggest in the video? Can't see why sissy squats wouldn't lend themselves to that too, and at a less injury risk, as well as more practical seeing you wouodnt be hogging 2 work stations.
But I suppose preexhaust might be of benefit, if you don't want to lose neural efficiency on the squat pattern, but this video is about hypertrophy not powerlifting. Besides, hypertrophy is a forgiving adaptation, and lacks a specificity component, as you've pointed out, I'm sure many times.
Exactly right, sissy squat would be another alternative. What if you don't have a sissy squat machine at your gym? Point is that it is a potential strategy to use at your disposal, but there are many other strategies you can use too. If you don't want to use Pre-Fatigue, then don't do it 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 well, i see your point but on the chance of being pedantic you don't need a machine for sissy squats. True sissy squats are performed without equipment on the floor.
Still, it's just a tool, albeit not one I can see myself using or suggesting, but perhaps some scenario might pop up where I can use it.
@@boxerfencer exactly right 👍
I like that the target muscle is already pumped and the following compound movement can be done with lighter weight, increasing stability - like example you gave about lower back and squats.
exactly right 👍
Very informative
Glad it was useful 👍
Excellent video. I've been disappointed with the "anti" pre-fatigue information that's out there which greatly misinterprets the data. You are the first to do the subject justice. Pre-fatigue makes so much intuitive sense. It definitely has its place over a muscle building journey. How many pre-sets would you recommend?
Thanks, glad the video was useful. 1-2 Pre-Fatigue sets should be sufficient I'd say. You could also just change the order of exercises in a session to naturally experience some pre fatigue. Eg. Do all you working sets of leg extensions before squats 👍
How about method "back to back" eg single joint- , compound, single joint. Flys-press-flys. Got that from late Mr America Don Ross. Works like a dream.
It actually very helpful with small muscles. It lets you grow without puhsing heavier loads. Which is great.
No it doesn’t. Pre fatigue is ineffective at best. And very detrimental at worst
Pre fatigue makes 0 logical sense
Fatigue training is bread and butter for explosive athletes. Having heavy legs but still being able to produce the same power is what I’ve gotten out of it. As a goalkeeper it helps keep ur legs fresh during high intensity training allowing you to focus more Instead of thinking Ab ur heavy legs.
No
I have hard times activating quads during squats, no matter how controlled the reps are, I will not feel my quads as activated as I would like it to be. That's why I pre exhaust them with leg extensions. I don't do too much volume, just like 2 sets with a 10 isometric for a few reps just to get some blood on my quads and then I feel them very well during my squats. That's the only time I use this strategy.
Nice, sounds like a good use for pre-fatigue 👍
same here. i feel more of my hamstrings in squats lol
Another reason for pre-fatigue could be the increasing of mind-muscle-connection for a specific muscle.
Yes, this could be another potential use 👍
No
Good stuff. I like mike Israetel’s sandwich idea. Compound lift-isolation-compound. Gives the best of both worlds
Interesting, never knew Mike uses this approach. Thanks for sharing 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Saw a few years back on one of his older videos. If I remember right, I think it was on his chest hypertrophy video
Thanks, will have a look at it 👍
True. Renaissance Periodization, Flow High Performance, JM7thlevel and elitefts are some of the best strength and fitness channels on TH-cam in my opinion...
Glad to hear Flow High Performance in the mix 💪
Good stuff! Maybe you could do a video about the efficacy of supersets.
Good suggestion. Will definitely consider it for a future video 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 I competed in bodybuilding decades ago and we (pros and top amateurs) never did supersets. The same with pre exhaust sets, however your points were well taken and well presented re pre exhausted sets. They absolutely make sense when you’re battling injuries. I do leg extensions prior to squats, especially due to my training age.
Yes, different strategies can have their place in certain contexts 👍
Very interesting.. thank you 👍🏼
5:02 not really different? Am I reading this graph incorrectly? What about the rectus femoris (distal) and vastus lateralis (distal)? Genuine question.
Yes, you could make the argument that regional hypertrophy was different in some cases, but overall, there was not a significant benefit for either training method
Have you seen the other type of pre exhaustive sets where
You might perform a dumbell shoulder press before a bench press to pre exhaust the anterior delt
The idea being that the subsequent bench press would rely more on the chest due to its ‘fresher’ state
Good question. Yes I have heard of such strategies but I don't think we have much solid evidence to support it 👍
this would actually make sense because your body would recruit more of the chest muscles if your delts are fatigued
@@kamprikorn bro your limiting factor is delt so your shoulder fatiuge causes failure. But if you pre exhoust chest your chest will going to failure before your delt. It is a chest exercise. Not delt. Delt shouldnt failure
Great video. I would love to know how pre-exhaustion factors in when you isolate a muscle first (curls/ biceps) so you can force isolation in a muscle in the next exercise (back rows/lats)
Yes, this is an interesting thought. I would assume this may have a negative effect on muscle growth, as it may limit overall workout for the back muscles 🤔
@@FlowHighPerformance1 depends on your goal mate
For some movements, I’ve found pre fatigue to do the opposite. For example, on pull days I may pre fatigue my biceps before doing rows. That helps me move the weight with my back instead of my arms since they’re already whooped.
ayo. same
Wrong, your limiting factor is biceps. Not your back. Because the elbow path is same angel.
my old account was deleted so I forgot your channel name and couldn't find it for months....IM SO GLAD I FOUND IT. RESUBBED.
I love your presentation and art style of information!
Welcome back 👍
I use pre exhaustion for chest because it definitely helps. I don’t know the parameters of these studies? Studies are usually so absurd when you actually read them.
But in my experience the pectoral muscles is very strong, and quite hard to target without so much deltoid and tricep activation taking over especially in people without such great mind muscle connections. So if you isolate the pec before a pressing movement, even without the mind muscle connection being up to par, you can still get the pec to work enough to make it grow. And in doing so create more of a mind connection.
These studies are silly really, they have a few people, either complete beginners or very advanced lifters and they do some lifts and compare rails using odd ways of testing them. No long term stuff and no follow ups. New techniques usually help advanced lifter for example, changing something slightly from the norm.
But yeah, pre exhaustion does work, I know it does from experience. I’ve trained a few people that couldn’t grow their pecs at all, very rarely felt them during or after exercise. When I started to pre exhaustion them, they instantly felt the pecs activate and got muscle soreness afterwards. There were a few tweaks in form as well, but that’s with everyone.
Pre exhaustion particularly with the chest is a must, it really is. I don’t use it in any other muscle group, the pec is the only one because it’s hard to target and has weaker muscle around sit that will fail before it gets enough work.
Yes, technique has a big influence on which muscles are worked the most. Pre-exhaust is definitely a tool that can be used where helpful 👍
Your content is good.
Cheers 👍
GREAT INFORMATION !!!
Cheers 👍
In 1986 I had an opportunity to train with late Mr America Don Ross. He had the method which he called "back to back ". We would do single joint exercise following compound movement and than again single joint exercise. Eg flys-chest press- flyes. All nonstop. Method is amazing for hypertrophy doesn't matter what research says. The amazing thing is that after that I haven't seen anyone who would do that or even heard about it. I use it for myself and my clients for years.
Interesting. I have never heard of that method either 🤔
Thank you great content
Cheers, no problem 👍
Hmm... I could see this being useful in a calisthenics context. I don't have access to much all beyond my body weight when I'm forced to work out at home. Would it be good then, for example, to pre-fatigue quads by doing AMRAP body weight squats before proceeding to do working sets of pistol squats? Or doing a set of push ups to failure before doing tricep sets?
Yes, exactly. This would be a perfect use for pre-fatigue 👍
Hello can I ask you how do you use those tabs for sets and reps and on what app
What tabs?
Muscles don’t know how much weight you are lifting only how much they are working. Hypertrophy is all about working the muscle.
exactly right 👍
I wonder if the glutes would benefit from pre-Fatigue when focusing on glute size and growth..
Possibly. Not enough data to say it could be effective or not 🤔
It definitely does. I do it and have done it for 6 months as of this comment and before I did it my glutes barely got sore from exercises that involved glutes. Now I squeeze my cheeks as hard as I can 3 sets for 15 to 20 seconds beforehand and now they get sore
i like to use pre-exhaust techniques to warm up my chest and quads, so that I feel ready to complete the DB incline bench and the leg press.
Nice, I often use a similar strategy for heavy compound lifts too 👍
This is Genius
Isn’t this kind of method affecting badly at force production? I would say it’s good for hypertrophy, but it could generate force deficit due to accumulate a high volume of training with a low speed execution due to high muscular fatigue .
Yes, you're exactly right. This is not a good method for strength/power development, but it can be useful for hypertrophy training 👍
So its just as good as lifting heavy but with out the injuries.
From the evidence we have, it seems so 👍
If you are not getting more hypertrophy with a pre-exhaust routine you are not training hard enough!
I've got tendinitis, so the less weight I can lift, the better!
Exactly right, pre-fatigue can allow you to train with lighter loads, reducing joint stress 💪
Pre exhaust saved my joints.
Nice, definitely helps to reduce joint stress 👍
EVERYONE DOES THIS, AND ITS NOT NESSESARY. YOU DONT NEED TO BRING THE SCIENCE JUST SAY THE THING. OTHER WISE PEOPLES MINDS WONDER INSTEAD OF UNDERSTANDING THE POINT. SORRY FOR CAPS, I DO DATA ENTRY
Never use pre fatigue. Doesn’t work
🤔
@@FlowHighPerformance1 it’s proven to reduce activation of the target muscle. Also makes you use less load, less reps , less technical ability, lesss proximity to true failure(not just fatigue)( you could run 10k before legs and be fatigued…
@@FlowHighPerformance1 so if you want less hypertrophy or strength, yeah go for it
@@danwright658 can you link a study to your claim? im interested
@@danwright658 listen boy. If you fatigue your triceps and do bench presses, you will find that your chest has not grown at all. because when you go to failure, there are maybe 7 more reps before your chests go to failure. so this is a triceps exercise because your triceps failure. It shouldn't be this hard to understand bro.