One must agree with Steve Jobs. They make amazing things but they can't sell them. The only things got close to object orientation are NeXT and OS/2 years later. Imagine saying "You will pay extra for a clock and bold capability"
@@DandyDon1 You need to be in a very specific geography with a very special job to have access to them. It could be wrongfully considered a toy compared to these workstations but I still miss my ease of interaction with Amiga Workbench.
@@compu85 They also did a 386 'Compainion' box which replaced the emulation board. Two variants, 16Mhz & 20Mhz 386 processors. Used to know most of the VP boot codes & error codes off by heart. The dreaded 0951 = failed disk scavenge. If the machine goes into a scavenge (0950) to repair the disk pages, it can take a long time. If it results in an 0951, this means the scavenge failed and requires either a new disk or manual intervention. Network boot into expert mode, ( you need to know the special password ;-) ) you can then get bad disk pages and assign them to the bad page list. Once done, scavenge the scavenger volume, this provides more space for the main scavenge operation. Then run the main scavenge again (0950), it if is successful, VP will start up, recommend that you then log out and save desktop to a remote network file server. Change the disk, Install VP (we used to boot from net and install from an install server), boot and recover desktop from file server. The other one that was popular was 0149 - this is the disk not loading the microcode, often it was the 40Mb half-height Seagate disk where it's heads had 'stuck' to the platters, known as "sticktion". Pull the drive and give it a sharp rotation movement with the disk in it's verticle plane, you hear the heads go clunk, then re-insert and it'll boot up. The boards were quite robust, but sometimes they would fail. IO and Memory borads were the most common. Great video, brought back so many memories, looking after 1,000+ of these machines was a continuous task along with all the network storage, removable disks, clearing house and routing servers.
I think it is also because normal people never saw these things. Speaking of unknown systems one should demo/document Burroughs MCP. I was totally amazed the way it works and still current in 2023.
This is a great demo of a very rare system in working order! But next time, please shoot video in 1080p or 4k, so that the demonstration can represent the screen and have less/no compression artifacts. It is unfortunate that the printing on some chips is blurry, and the screen heavily aliased, because this video is 720p.
Very interesting to see the little UI kludges and rough spots (e.g. the warning about waiting for a specific status code before power off; manual repagination hidden in a menu; slow graphics drawing at least compared to the Mac which was highly optimized for the 68k and other Macintosh hardware only) that, one assumes, might have been eventually improved in future versions if the product had been more successful. (Or, at Apple, Steve Jobs would have yelled at people until it was fixed before release.)
Many! The most changed item were the screens. We’d change 3-4 a week. You can have fun with the screens, you can flip the X and Y plate connections, it’ll turn the image upside down and back to front. The air inlets would get clogged with dust. Heads in the disks would get stuck, a shake of the disk is required. Saved a few desktops data from loss by using the advanced tools to add bad pages and scavenge the volume. All the systems were connected to a network, big thick co-ax where you had to tap a new connection live. If you got it wrong that entire network segment would go down. We also had the 386 companion boxes. Could be run independently or attached to a 6085. Used to know most of the boot codes off by heart. Keyboards were another issue, usually coffee, but there was a trend for metallic nail varnish, flakes of it would get into the keyboard and short circuit keys.
Also used to maintain the 8010 systems file servers and removable storage systems. Changing and realigning the heads by hand, all 20 of them. Also saw some of the newer 8090 systems and Sparc IPX boxes. Trained on all of the aspects of XNS, clearing house servers, routers etc. It was a great grounding for networking. We also introduced 10Base-T, Cat 3 and fibre networking. Dec VMS, MS-Dos all co-existing.
I've come back to this video multiple times and have an irrational love for Xerox (how on earth did you find one!). I'd really love 3D models of the case, monitor, and mouse, but I might have to make them myself. I subscribed and hope you'll cover it still more.
@@tommythorn I couldn't make it out this year :( had a schedule conflict. But will next year for sure! I just got a 2nd 6085, so that should make the display even better!
Xerox corporate sure didn't. But there blame to go around. If Parc, SDD, sales, and Corp could've been on the same page things would be very different today.
Shame on you for letting that 6085-1 controller get up on the table.... ;) There was the 15" version monitor as well, but.... The later 19" monitor (of which I own one) has a power switch-volume control as well as the brightness control, and a green led in the front with three right angle grooves/slots. Personally, I'd wear a anti-static wrist strap handling those PWBs. There was also memory and firmware/software expansion to upgrade the 6085-1 to be a XPIW (Xerox Publishing Illustrators Workstation). The XPIW Logo was drawn from dots until completely visible which was superimposed over the bouncing keyboard. The 40mb HDDs were notorious for not starting up! Curious there is a LED on the C7 slot back plate. The 80Mb Micropolis did not have those. I have few of the those TRW Systems power supplies. The HACK version of Quick Restart would also freeze the time and date, sigh.... Cold start up time which depends on how many software modules were set to auto-start could be up to 20 minutes. The practice around Xerox USMG in El Segundo was to reboot the workstations when we all went to lunch at noon. This was done to recover page space. Too bad you could get your hands View Point version 2.2. It had many additional features. At the time I was trained it was the current version installed in 1989. On floppy I have the templates for Xerox inter office correspondence and the Xerox logo font. Place about 10 clocks on the desktop all with second hands showing to see how much the screen refresh slows the system down, hehe! I used the PC emulator in my 6085 for online dial-up chat. For some reason it would randomly freeze then requiring a full system restart. When you login, if you watch the icons appear in alphabetical order :) Basic Graphics and Free hand are always drawn upon opening in the same order as original. You could also do simple animations as well. Paginate cleans up the edits (making the file contingent) and reduces it's overall file size. There was a System Loader HACK which took you one level deeper into the system. You could then remove system only software modules.
Actually the software keys can be entered manually. I have a list of all the last keys which were available which also included GVWIN 1.0 for the IBM PC.
I have many of the Xerox HACKS for the 6085 including VP Aquarium, the Brush DMTs, a messaging software module which resembles AOL AIM for sending text messages to co-workers. There was one additional HACKS software module which upon start-up showed the progress of the software modules as they loaded from the bouncing keyboard screen. With each hop of the bouncing keyboard you would see a text message superimposed over it showing "Loading *application* Starting *application* Done. I would then move to the next application start up progress. Xerox sold MANY of these systems to US Government and Education. USC had many 6085s. I was working at USC when the first 6085 model 2 was delivered. I don't know about you but I saw diagnostic code 0938 just before you powered if off. I wonder what the difference is between 0938 and 0939. Not sure if I have those codes explained my documentation anywhere.... Some of the diagnostic codes you always remember.
I was going to email you the complete Xerox View Point/GVWin Product Factoring Passwords, but I do see an email address in your contact info..... The passwords are for VP1.1/Services 10.0, VP2.0/Services 11.0, GV3.x (Sun Microsystems) and GlobalView 3.x (6085, XGV-PC) I also have a copy of the official Xerox instructions on How To Use Global Passwords.
@@JeffTiberend you would need a token ring MAU with an AUI port, and hook up an Ethernet transceiver. That would get you hooked up at the physical layer.
Wonderful presentation of a rare piece of computer history. These Xerox systems led the way to so much technology in the following decades.
Thank you!
One must agree with Steve Jobs. They make amazing things but they can't sell them. The only things got close to object orientation are NeXT and OS/2 years later. Imagine saying "You will pay extra for a clock and bold capability"
@@Olgasys That really isn't fair. If you were trained on and used Xerox View Point/Global View on a day to day basis, you might think differently.
@@DandyDon1 You need to be in a very specific geography with a very special job to have access to them. It could be wrongfully considered a toy compared to these workstations but I still miss my ease of interaction with Amiga Workbench.
A machine I used frequently... except loaded with different microcode, running Interlisp.
I just got the extra RAM for the control store, I hope to get Smalltalk running on it soon!
I used to work on these in the UK main EU HQ, 1,000 people in one building, all with a machine, all networked.
@@compu85 They also did a 386 'Compainion' box which replaced the emulation board. Two variants, 16Mhz & 20Mhz 386 processors.
Used to know most of the VP boot codes & error codes off by heart.
The dreaded 0951 = failed disk scavenge. If the machine goes into a scavenge (0950) to repair the disk pages, it can take a long time. If it results in an 0951, this means the scavenge failed and requires either a new disk or manual intervention.
Network boot into expert mode, ( you need to know the special password ;-) ) you can then get bad disk pages and assign them to the bad page list.
Once done, scavenge the scavenger volume, this provides more space for the main scavenge operation.
Then run the main scavenge again (0950), it if is successful, VP will start up, recommend that you then log out and save desktop to a remote network file server.
Change the disk, Install VP (we used to boot from net and install from an install server), boot and recover desktop from file server.
The other one that was popular was 0149 - this is the disk not loading the microcode, often it was the 40Mb half-height Seagate disk where it's heads had 'stuck' to the platters, known as "sticktion". Pull the drive and give it a sharp rotation movement with the disk in it's verticle plane, you hear the heads go clunk, then re-insert and it'll boot up.
The boards were quite robust, but sometimes they would fail. IO and Memory borads were the most common.
Great video, brought back so many memories, looking after 1,000+ of these machines was a continuous task along with all the network storage, removable disks, clearing house and routing servers.
Thanks for this, really fascinating system. Also glad to see you setting the record straight on what Apple did borrow and what they didn't.
I hope to get Smalltalk going on this system for a good demo of what Apple did see on the PARC visit.
I think it is also because normal people never saw these things. Speaking of unknown systems one should demo/document Burroughs MCP. I was totally amazed the way it works and still current in 2023.
This is a great demo of a very rare system in working order! But next time, please shoot video in 1080p or 4k, so that the demonstration can represent the screen and have less/no compression artifacts. It is unfortunate that the printing on some chips is blurry, and the screen heavily aliased, because this video is 720p.
I'd love to have shot it at a higher resolution - annoyingly, I only have a 720p camera at present!
I need to rectify that....
Very interesting to see the little UI kludges and rough spots (e.g. the warning about waiting for a specific status code before power off; manual repagination hidden in a menu; slow graphics drawing at least compared to the Mac which was highly optimized for the 68k and other Macintosh hardware only) that, one assumes, might have been eventually improved in future versions if the product had been more successful. (Or, at Apple, Steve Jobs would have yelled at people until it was fixed before release.)
The 6085 II is quite a bit faster from what I've read. And this machine is quicker than an 8010 Star!
Seeing that many chips on a single PCB is always my favorite part of these breakdowns.
The boards in an 8010 Star are even crazier. Bigger boards, more chips, and connectors on both sides!
I used to fix these, I worked for Xerox in the late eighties, early 90's.
Any good stories? :)
Many! The most changed item were the screens. We’d change 3-4 a week. You can have fun with the screens, you can flip the X and Y plate connections, it’ll turn the image upside down and back to front.
The air inlets would get clogged with dust. Heads in the disks would get stuck, a shake of the disk is required. Saved a few desktops data from loss by using the advanced tools to add bad pages and scavenge the volume. All the systems were connected to a network, big thick co-ax where you had to tap a new connection live. If you got it wrong that entire network segment would go down. We also had the 386 companion boxes. Could be run independently or attached to a 6085. Used to know most of the boot codes off by heart.
Keyboards were another issue, usually coffee, but there was a trend for metallic nail varnish, flakes of it would get into the keyboard and short circuit keys.
Also used to maintain the 8010 systems file servers and removable storage systems. Changing and realigning the heads by hand, all 20 of them. Also saw some of the newer 8090 systems and Sparc IPX boxes. Trained on all of the aspects of XNS, clearing house servers, routers etc. It was a great grounding for networking. We also introduced 10Base-T, Cat 3 and fibre networking. Dec VMS, MS-Dos all co-existing.
@@AdrianMoir Wow so they had you actually swapping CRTs out, not just replacing the whole monitor?
@@compu85 We swapped out the entire monitors, but you could play with to a certain extent. Focus, brightness etc.
35:30 Xerox, the inventor of microtransactions
I've come back to this video multiple times and have an irrational love for Xerox (how on earth did you find one!). I'd really love 3D models of the case, monitor, and mouse, but I might have to make them myself.
I subscribed and hope you'll cover it still more.
I plan to! I got a 2nd unit that has problems, so there'll be more to dive into.
I'm also going to show this system at VCF West later this year!
@@compu85I’ll be there with camera and calipers:)
@@compu85 I just came back from VCF West, but I didn't see you :(
@@tommythorn I couldn't make it out this year :( had a schedule conflict. But will next year for sure! I just got a 2nd 6085, so that should make the display even better!
Xerox didn't have a clue about the significance of what they had brought to life.
Xerox corporate sure didn't. But there blame to go around.
If Parc, SDD, sales, and Corp could've been on the same page things would be very different today.
Exactly! Apple, Microsoft, and IBM wouldn't have had a chance. Till this could have been reverse engineered.
how is your 350sdl doing? Always loved vids of that car! Marlon
Sadly it blew the head gasket. It's been parked for 6 months... too many projects.
Awesome system - well done!
Shame on you for letting that 6085-1 controller get up on the table.... ;)
There was the 15" version monitor as well, but....
The later 19" monitor (of which I own one) has a power switch-volume control as well as the brightness control, and a green led in the front with three right angle grooves/slots.
Personally, I'd wear a anti-static wrist strap handling those PWBs.
There was also memory and firmware/software expansion to upgrade the 6085-1 to be a XPIW (Xerox Publishing Illustrators Workstation). The XPIW Logo was drawn from dots until completely visible which was superimposed over the bouncing keyboard.
The 40mb HDDs were notorious for not starting up! Curious there is a LED on the C7 slot back plate. The 80Mb Micropolis did not have those.
I have few of the those TRW Systems power supplies.
The HACK version of Quick Restart would also freeze the time and date, sigh....
Cold start up time which depends on how many software modules were set to auto-start could be up to 20 minutes. The practice around Xerox USMG in El Segundo was to reboot the workstations when we all went to lunch at noon. This was done to recover page space.
Too bad you could get your hands View Point version 2.2. It had many additional features. At the time I was trained it was the current version installed in 1989.
On floppy I have the templates for Xerox inter office correspondence and the Xerox logo font.
Place about 10 clocks on the desktop all with second hands showing to see how much the screen refresh slows the system down, hehe!
I used the PC emulator in my 6085 for online dial-up chat. For some reason it would randomly freeze then requiring a full system restart.
When you login, if you watch the icons appear in alphabetical order :)
Basic Graphics and Free hand are always drawn upon opening in the same order as original. You could also do simple animations as well.
Paginate cleans up the edits (making the file contingent) and reduces it's overall file size.
There was a System Loader HACK which took you one level deeper into the system. You could then remove system only software modules.
Actually the software keys can be entered manually. I have a list of all the last keys which were available which also included GVWIN 1.0 for the IBM PC.
I have many of the Xerox HACKS for the 6085 including VP Aquarium, the Brush DMTs, a messaging software module which resembles AOL AIM for sending text messages to co-workers.
There was one additional HACKS software module which upon start-up showed the progress of the software modules as they loaded from the bouncing keyboard screen. With each hop of the bouncing keyboard you would see a text message superimposed over it showing "Loading *application* Starting *application* Done. I would then move to the next application start up progress.
Xerox sold MANY of these systems to US Government and Education. USC had many 6085s. I was working at USC when the first 6085 model 2 was delivered.
I don't know about you but I saw diagnostic code 0938 just before you powered if off. I wonder what the difference is between 0938 and 0939. Not sure if I have those codes explained my documentation anywhere....
Some of the diagnostic codes you always remember.
I was going to email you the complete Xerox View Point/GVWin Product Factoring Passwords, but I do see an email address in your contact info..... The passwords are for VP1.1/Services 10.0, VP2.0/Services 11.0, GV3.x (Sun Microsystems) and GlobalView 3.x (6085, XGV-PC) I also have a copy of the official Xerox instructions on How To Use Global Passwords.
So, did this system offer terminal emulation so that you would be able to access IBM mainframes and datastores?
Yes! And you could connect either locally, or to a terminal concentrator over Ethernet.
@@compu85 Now, I’m wondering if token ring was directly supported or if you had to have something to translate between token ring and Ethernet.
@@JeffTiberend you would need a token ring MAU with an AUI port, and hook up an Ethernet transceiver. That would get you hooked up at the physical layer.
Los nuevos nunca entenderán esta parte de la historia de la computación. Ahora son auténticos dinosaurios pero en su época eran lo más cool
It is good to know the past so we can put today in context!
The activation password for software is aaaaaaaaaah58
Oh ya? Does it care about the date?