I logged 6hrs in the first 8hrs of the demo. This is the first platform fighter I’ve enjoyed since melee. (Ult was good for a bit but the DLC ruined it)
Ult is also ruined by terrible online. Lots of people still play Ult but imagine just how popular it'd be if people could queue up stable games 24/7 and not have to deal with toaster connections and ridiculous input lag. The transition from offline to online feels so terrible in comparison to basically every other relevant fighting game right now it's embarrassing. It discourages people from grinding unlike Slippi does for Melee.
As a zetter main for 9 years, maypul's never getting less annoying let me tell you LMAO Fleet DEFINITELY has kill power. She's a solid S tier. At the last in person major, 4 of top 8 were fleet mains. She's nuts. The fleet mu is also hard for zet. Yes you want to get in and pressure her but that's easier said than done against top fleets. Then you factor in fleet's punish game being absurdly easy against zet and you can't take any risks.
Orcane is heavier than lox!? I was under the impression lox was the heaviest after the recent patch. Upon further investigation to the patch lox is indeed the heaviest, orcane is the 3rd heaviest
I entirely agree about recoveries being too good. Similarly to Ultimate, recoveries are so strong and hard to contest that you usually see good players just hold center and try to ledge trap their opponent because the risk/reward for attempting off-stage edge guards is so bad. In particular, I would like to single out wall jumps and the fact that you can cancel certain recovery moves into them for making going low way too safe when recovering. It feels like Rivals 1 recovery mechanics got grandfathered in without enough thought put into how they would interact with the changes made for Rivals 2, such as introducing ledges.
I think there's a sweetspot between melee and ult recoveries that should be the goal, especially since this game has the potential to bring melee and ult players together like PM3.0 did for brawl. I also like certain characters having some walljump mixups similar to PM Ike. But Ranno's walljump out of up-b's divekick is utter horseshit.
@@Scorpio3002 I feel like this game is much closer to Ultimate than this sweetspot you mention. Even the heavyweights have good recoveries in this game, and I can't think of a single character where having a bad recovery is an identifiable weakness the way it is for Melee Falcon or even Melee Shiek.
@@carlschrappen9712 I'll agree with the premise that it's currently closer to Ultimate, and that recoveries should be tuned down. I just worry about this game catering its balance patches exclusively to the melee crowd. It's okay for recoveries to be stronger overall than melee, especially with the way that airdodges function as an actionable but non-renewable resource.
tbh I think this is just natural for how new the game is. I imagine offstage game is not people's priority when starting the game so as a result the offstage pressure just isn't present at the moment.
Clairen is made to appeal to newer characters. I think making her hard is a bad idea for that very reason, because the sword fighting style is supposed to be functionally transcendent of game, unless you have a fully sword based fighting game. The recovery issue will definitely come up more and more, given that there wasn't a ledge in Rivals so a lot of these characters are going to not translate perfectly. A lot of the recoveries were meant to be shorter range or more free form in certain ways, like how Orcane's puddle works. He wasn't the only one who could teleport straight onto the stage with the right setup, and on most stages, Sylvanos could do so freely. Adding a ledge makes me really interested to see how they approach Sylvanos, if they plan to, but overall, I'm sure a lot of characters could do with serious redesigns in this form. Same question about Sylvanos stands with the flier Elliana. But for now, all we can do is wait and see
As a very average melee enjoyer playing peach... I god damn LOVE Orcane. Loved him in Rivals 1 and love him even more here. The fact that you get to be tanky and actually survive the stupid fire fthrow feels so good xD (sorry I hate that killing forwardthrow sooooo much omg)
You people should look how the roa 1 meta evolved. Characters in roa always felt overtuned / op (ex : clairen with an anti projectile mechanic whilst she is a swordie). But matchupwise the game is really well balanced imho
As someone that doesn't have 5000 hours in previous platform fighters, I find clairen kinda hard. The tippers aren't too hard to hit, but hitfalling them into a smash attack but only on tipper is pretty hard for me to do consistently against human opponents. Sometimes they miss a tech or don't DI or break the throw right and I can get kills at like 90 ish, but sometimes they don't let those things happen and I find em at 150+% and they just won't die.
Don't let a player that plays Zetterburn deter you from saying Clairen is "easy" lol. She has very slow hitboxes and no projectile to play with in a game where every other character can apply pressure from midrange and does not have to be precise on their hitboxes when trying to kill. It is not easy to tipper opponents that have so much freedom as to how they DI, very few kill confirms actually ARE confirms, you just gotta get good at freestyling most of the time. Most Zetter or Maypul players outside of the Pro scene are literally just spamming lots of moves at you with no regard... and the WILL kill you doing it. You can't do that with Clairen, both because of how slow her whole kit is compared to a lot of the cast (especially the S tiers) and because a badly spaced ANYTHING fails to kill before 150%. You really need to master tippers, parrying, spacing and patience to win against the rest of the cast. Do that and it feels like you are getting away with destroying the rest of the cast without giving yourself Carpal Tunnel from Waveshining non-stop for 2 hours (and the reason why they mald about her being "easy").
Dude just because I have seen so many of your matches and your insane recoveries I gotta agree with you. Like the amount of skill you got in Melee with recovery is insane and maybe Rivals 2 doesn't have to be that hard to get back into stage but I agree that it's really easy.
Clairen really benefits from what MKLeo saw in Ike in the first months of competitive Smash Ultimate: It is a character that has incredible rewards from having your fundamentals on point (dash dancing, spacing, confirms, grab game and generally everything related to winning neutral). She's S tier because she's beating out all of the people that are trying to do more complicated stuff on Day 1 instead of locking in on the fundies. Clairen doesn't ask the player to learn float cancels, waveshines, item play, complicated recovery options, etc. to be able to properly be picked up and played, but that does not mean that she has no depth. She has slower startups and more endlag on all her moves compared to the rest of the rushdown characters of the cast, she has no projectile to play keepaway with, her recovery is super gimpable, and she SUCKS at killing if you are not landing your tippers and just generally throwing your hitboxes at the right times. She works smarter, not harder, and is therefore the bane of all sweaty players that labbed Zetterburn's shield pressure for 20 hours just to get parried and/or kept away by tilts. I love beating crayon-eating spammers like Zetterburn, Maypul, Ranno and every other charcter that just aboslutely shits on Clairen's frame data by just being better at spacing, parrying and being patient for my turn to go on the offensive.
If it makes you really mad about Maypul. Just know that in rivals 1 she was combo food for days. I'm disappointed that that is not true in rivals 2. I would be happy to take maples moves being a bit more busted if she was combo food as compensation
Another note: I might be blind rivals 2 edge guarding has a problem. Because the reason I dropped rivals one is I hated the edge guarding. All the things you're talking about with wall teching and reversals were so much easier in rivals 1. I've played since April and I think the new edge guarding system feels so much better. Down smashing and pairing at the ledge are huge tools to decimate opponents. As well as of course ledge hogging with s. If you Parry somebody's recovery at the ledge they get no s on the ledge so you can downsmash them immediately
I have seen like 4 tier lists, most of them from smash players, 1 from a rivals 1 player, and they are almost all completely different. The only thing people kinda agree on is that Zetter and wrastor are good Loxodont is bad. Some people put orcane in high tier others put them in bottom. Fleet is another that is either S or D. Seeing tier lists like this is a good thing and I hope tier lists stay this mixed a year from now or even longer. It just means every character is capable. in guilty Gear Strive this is also sort of the case. Yes there are some characters that are insanely good but its not like Fox in melee where they are clearly the best. There aren't any Fox vs Kirby or Bowser differences the gap is more like sheik or marth to fox. Anyways Super excited to see where this game is in a year. I havent been this excited for a new game in a very long time.
I stand by wrastor being top 3 long term. I think the vast majority of wrastor players don’t know what to do with him (myself included cause I swapped to ranno day 3 of the demo). Just seeing his buttons and air drift makes me a believer
@@Nobody-yj8yq Well, you can't grab ledge when someone else is on it, and you even retain invincibility when letting go, similar to Melee. Maybe you meant trumping like in Smash 4 and Ultimate?
Edgeguarding just isn't feasible when most recoveries that aren't a teleport have hitboxes too big to challenge. The counter to this in 1 was parry, but parrying at the ledge is not helpful when they can just grab ledge and either regrab or ledge dash before you can take advantage of the parry. Wrastor and fleet are the only characters that can even think of really edgeguarding against up specials, and even then it might not work. Trying to do so on any other character is a waste of time.
i know its content but making a tier list even as a half joke when u havent even played against some of the roster is questionable, i personally wouldn’t but your channel ofc :p also think that when rating/critiquing, your rating would be more logical to me if you first primarily weighed the game based on how fun it is and if you see yourself playing more rather than specific points about game mechanics that will obviously be adjusted if they turn out to be over/underperforming when the game is released
I logged 6hrs in the first 8hrs of the demo. This is the first platform fighter I’ve enjoyed since melee. (Ult was good for a bit but the DLC ruined it)
Ult is also ruined by terrible online. Lots of people still play Ult but imagine just how popular it'd be if people could queue up stable games 24/7 and not have to deal with toaster connections and ridiculous input lag. The transition from offline to online feels so terrible in comparison to basically every other relevant fighting game right now it's embarrassing. It discourages people from grinding unlike Slippi does for Melee.
@@Forged4War206 true I'd honestly still deal with Kazuya Steve and G&W if the online wasn't so awful compared to playing offline
The fox player hates the marth stand-in
interesting
LOL
(about maypul) "you get a really obnoxious character with the energy of swiper from dora" lol
Literally fox lol
fire fuckin bar lmao
@@darkmoon137 true same species but he doesn't have swiper energy he has more cop energy
@darkmoon137 she is a ringtail/raccoon, but yeah high energy.
@@hahahalala-i1x fox pulling you over like "GET OFF THE ROAD" *BLIPBLIP*
i love the og rivals of aether, my main is Jerma
Mama Coco ftw
As a zetter main for 9 years, maypul's never getting less annoying let me tell you LMAO
Fleet DEFINITELY has kill power. She's a solid S tier. At the last in person major, 4 of top 8 were fleet mains. She's nuts.
The fleet mu is also hard for zet. Yes you want to get in and pressure her but that's easier said than done against top fleets. Then you factor in fleet's punish game being absurdly easy against zet and you can't take any risks.
Cody's dog is a Fleet main lol, as soon as he started talking about Fleet's downsides the dog started barking
Orcane is heavier than lox!? I was under the impression lox was the heaviest after the recent patch.
Upon further investigation to the patch lox is indeed the heaviest, orcane is the 3rd heaviest
Orcane is waaayyyy too fast to be the third heaviest
kragg is even heavier
@@Kiba114 no Kragg is the second heaviest
I entirely agree about recoveries being too good. Similarly to Ultimate, recoveries are so strong and hard to contest that you usually see good players just hold center and try to ledge trap their opponent because the risk/reward for attempting off-stage edge guards is so bad.
In particular, I would like to single out wall jumps and the fact that you can cancel certain recovery moves into them for making going low way too safe when recovering. It feels like Rivals 1 recovery mechanics got grandfathered in without enough thought put into how they would interact with the changes made for Rivals 2, such as introducing ledges.
To be fair I think recoveries are good but they’re not as broken or brain dead as ultimates recoveries.
I think there's a sweetspot between melee and ult recoveries that should be the goal, especially since this game has the potential to bring melee and ult players together like PM3.0 did for brawl. I also like certain characters having some walljump mixups similar to PM Ike. But Ranno's walljump out of up-b's divekick is utter horseshit.
@@Scorpio3002 I feel like this game is much closer to Ultimate than this sweetspot you mention. Even the heavyweights have good recoveries in this game, and I can't think of a single character where having a bad recovery is an identifiable weakness the way it is for Melee Falcon or even Melee Shiek.
@@carlschrappen9712 I'll agree with the premise that it's currently closer to Ultimate, and that recoveries should be tuned down. I just worry about this game catering its balance patches exclusively to the melee crowd. It's okay for recoveries to be stronger overall than melee, especially with the way that airdodges function as an actionable but non-renewable resource.
tbh I think this is just natural for how new the game is. I imagine offstage game is not people's priority when starting the game so as a result the offstage pressure just isn't present at the moment.
Cody Schwab
Clairen is made to appeal to newer characters. I think making her hard is a bad idea for that very reason, because the sword fighting style is supposed to be functionally transcendent of game, unless you have a fully sword based fighting game. The recovery issue will definitely come up more and more, given that there wasn't a ledge in Rivals so a lot of these characters are going to not translate perfectly. A lot of the recoveries were meant to be shorter range or more free form in certain ways, like how Orcane's puddle works. He wasn't the only one who could teleport straight onto the stage with the right setup, and on most stages, Sylvanos could do so freely. Adding a ledge makes me really interested to see how they approach Sylvanos, if they plan to, but overall, I'm sure a lot of characters could do with serious redesigns in this form. Same question about Sylvanos stands with the flier Elliana. But for now, all we can do is wait and see
As a very average melee enjoyer playing peach... I god damn LOVE Orcane. Loved him in Rivals 1 and love him even more here. The fact that you get to be tanky and actually survive the stupid fire fthrow feels so good xD (sorry I hate that killing forwardthrow sooooo much omg)
You people should look how the roa 1 meta evolved.
Characters in roa always felt overtuned / op (ex : clairen with an anti projectile mechanic whilst she is a swordie). But matchupwise the game is really well balanced imho
If he has lava charges, he can use down special OOS. He can attack during the upward movement too.
i really enjoy these kind of recap videos
As someone that doesn't have 5000 hours in previous platform fighters, I find clairen kinda hard. The tippers aren't too hard to hit, but hitfalling them into a smash attack but only on tipper is pretty hard for me to do consistently against human opponents. Sometimes they miss a tech or don't DI or break the throw right and I can get kills at like 90 ish, but sometimes they don't let those things happen and I find em at 150+% and they just won't die.
Don't let a player that plays Zetterburn deter you from saying Clairen is "easy" lol. She has very slow hitboxes and no projectile to play with in a game where every other character can apply pressure from midrange and does not have to be precise on their hitboxes when trying to kill. It is not easy to tipper opponents that have so much freedom as to how they DI, very few kill confirms actually ARE confirms, you just gotta get good at freestyling most of the time.
Most Zetter or Maypul players outside of the Pro scene are literally just spamming lots of moves at you with no regard... and the WILL kill you doing it. You can't do that with Clairen, both because of how slow her whole kit is compared to a lot of the cast (especially the S tiers) and because a badly spaced ANYTHING fails to kill before 150%. You really need to master tippers, parrying, spacing and patience to win against the rest of the cast. Do that and it feels like you are getting away with destroying the rest of the cast without giving yourself Carpal Tunnel from Waveshining non-stop for 2 hours (and the reason why they mald about her being "easy").
Dude just because I have seen so many of your matches and your insane recoveries I gotta agree with you. Like the amount of skill you got in Melee with recovery is insane and maybe Rivals 2 doesn't have to be that hard to get back into stage but I agree that it's really easy.
Clairen really benefits from what MKLeo saw in Ike in the first months of competitive Smash Ultimate: It is a character that has incredible rewards from having your fundamentals on point (dash dancing, spacing, confirms, grab game and generally everything related to winning neutral). She's S tier because she's beating out all of the people that are trying to do more complicated stuff on Day 1 instead of locking in on the fundies.
Clairen doesn't ask the player to learn float cancels, waveshines, item play, complicated recovery options, etc. to be able to properly be picked up and played, but that does not mean that she has no depth. She has slower startups and more endlag on all her moves compared to the rest of the rushdown characters of the cast, she has no projectile to play keepaway with, her recovery is super gimpable, and she SUCKS at killing if you are not landing your tippers and just generally throwing your hitboxes at the right times.
She works smarter, not harder, and is therefore the bane of all sweaty players that labbed Zetterburn's shield pressure for 20 hours just to get parried and/or kept away by tilts. I love beating crayon-eating spammers like Zetterburn, Maypul, Ranno and every other charcter that just aboslutely shits on Clairen's frame data by just being better at spacing, parrying and being patient for my turn to go on the offensive.
If it makes you really mad about Maypul. Just know that in rivals 1 she was combo food for days. I'm disappointed that that is not true in rivals 2.
I would be happy to take maples moves being a bit more busted if she was combo food as compensation
Another note: I might be blind rivals 2 edge guarding has a problem. Because the reason I dropped rivals one is I hated the edge guarding. All the things you're talking about with wall teching and reversals were so much easier in rivals 1.
I've played since April and I think the new edge guarding system feels so much better.
Down smashing and pairing at the ledge are huge tools to decimate opponents. As well as of course ledge hogging with s.
If you Parry somebody's recovery at the ledge they get no s on the ledge so you can downsmash them immediately
I have seen like 4 tier lists, most of them from smash players, 1 from a rivals 1 player, and they are almost all completely different. The only thing people kinda agree on is that Zetter and wrastor are good Loxodont is bad. Some people put orcane in high tier others put them in bottom. Fleet is another that is either S or D. Seeing tier lists like this is a good thing and I hope tier lists stay this mixed a year from now or even longer. It just means every character is capable. in guilty Gear Strive this is also sort of the case. Yes there are some characters that are insanely good but its not like Fox in melee where they are clearly the best. There aren't any Fox vs Kirby or Bowser differences the gap is more like sheik or marth to fox.
Anyways Super excited to see where this game is in a year. I havent been this excited for a new game in a very long time.
I stand by wrastor being top 3 long term. I think the vast majority of wrastor players don’t know what to do with him (myself included cause I swapped to ranno day 3 of the demo). Just seeing his buttons and air drift makes me a believer
forsburn recovery is really good once you mix in smoke/clone
Yessss. Recovery is freaking easy.
I like this game more than Melee. I'm eating so good.
I wonder why maypul’s s d doesn’t have a charge like Ranno
Wow, you called me out so accurately. I play Clairen because I suck and Lox pissed me off lol
What defines a good or bad dash dance
did anybody tell him yet that orcane is heavy off the sides but not off the top (assuming that carried over from r1)
clairen's arent even walk mod pivoting yet
They took recoveries from a game with no edges to a game with edges lol. The few up Bs that have to go into wall are f***ed tho
Clairen being braindead is insane to say when i cant land a tipper to save my life on her smash attacks but can always land marth tippers no issue.
bro Clairen's tipper is waaaaaay to big
You probably have thousands of hours on marth if you are a competitive player so its much more second nature.
That's crazy tbh, i feel like clairens tipper is 70% of the sword and non tipper hits are actually rare to see lol
@@Dato.Richard its only the fsmash i struggle with landing tippers on tbh outside of guaranteed setups, any other move is easy
@@mrrfun6 i actually main zetter cus i was a falco main lol
Honestly I don’t think recoveries are super good in this game, I think we don’t know how to edge guard in this game
Orcane's recovery has entered the chat
@@Nobody-yj8yqledge hogging works similar to melee though?
@@Nobody-yj8yq Well, you can't grab ledge when someone else is on it, and you even retain invincibility when letting go, similar to Melee.
Maybe you meant trumping like in Smash 4 and Ultimate?
Edgeguarding just isn't feasible when most recoveries that aren't a teleport have hitboxes too big to challenge. The counter to this in 1 was parry, but parrying at the ledge is not helpful when they can just grab ledge and either regrab or ledge dash before you can take advantage of the parry.
Wrastor and fleet are the only characters that can even think of really edgeguarding against up specials, and even then it might not work. Trying to do so on any other character is a waste of time.
Definitely agree with the S tier, those characters have so much sauce
I love clairen
yo
i know its content but making a tier list even as a half joke when u havent even played against some of the roster is questionable, i personally wouldn’t but your channel ofc :p
also think that when rating/critiquing, your rating would be more logical to me if you first primarily weighed the game based on how fun it is and if you see yourself playing more rather than specific points about game mechanics that will obviously be adjusted if they turn out to be over/underperforming when the game is released
It's more just a way to guide a discussion about his experience with the game. No one should be taking any tier lists seriously rn
Have you seen leffen's forsburn? Lmfao
The clairen hate is justified. Her tipper hitboxes are bigger than Starfield's day 1 patch and her throws into fsmash are kinda goo goo gaa gaa-esque.
I never hit tippers. I suck so much.
Algo comment #5
Everything is too easy in this game, that's the biggest turn-off for me.
second comment lol
Power creep the game