I agree with you, Daniel. As a person who spent their life as a musician, (drummer/arranger) the lure for this sort of work seems to be that the young photographers should do it "for the exposure". That phrase strikes a nerve with most musicians I know, and triggers a "Hell, no", response in most of us. I also agree about the precedent... that the client apparently has no trust in the photographer, if they're possibly only going to buy a percentage of the work. No, no, no! If you do the work, you should be paid properly, according to the the quality levels you produce. Part of this learning experience is tough, when you're young and broke, or "looking for your big break", and that is the willingness to say no, and seek better opportunities.
You do such a nice job of presenting this type of “controversial” topic. No histrionics. Just a nice delivery of your experienced perspective. Really well done.
Daniel - Holy Shit! Seriously you are addressing a niche that really needs attention. I am a (somewhat new) commercial photographer doing many of the kinds of shoots you describe. I have clients that are literally "on the fence" because they see me as kind of expensive, yet they see my work and know they need that level of quality. They face a dilemma - do I go cheap and settle for cheap images, or do step up and pay a fair price for top notch results? I deal with this often and I try to stay strong. There are times when I'm tempted to do the cheap work for cheap prices, but I resist. Man its hard sometimes! Daniel - I cant tell you how important it is to me to have you share your professional experience with us. This is huge for me - Thank You! Seriously, this is gold!
Oh - and also - I owe you at least a beer. If you ever get to Halifax NS, Canada you seriously need to look me up. I'll have you quickly at a table of photographers at a local pub talking about all the cool shit we love to talk about and the first round (maybe single malt?) is on me! www.ktrudeauphotography.com Send me a note - let's connect!
People are trying to find the next Uber and AirBnB and become billionaires. People with little understanding of photography believe that just like ride sharing where you "share" your car and driving skills, you can do the same with photography. The problem is that driving isn't as much of a learning curve as photography is even forgetting the artistic flair needed. Yes cameras are getting more easy to shoot with, but looking at industry sales, cameras sold per year is decreasing. So this means reduced supply that would only increase the price for work. The argument with Uber and such is that you are creating a new network bring new buyers and sellers who would never been without that market. But as you said, an influx of millions from Wall St to put DSLRs into the hands of thousands of amateurs isn't going to give new clients expecting professional work satisfaction.
Fantastic content and delivery in your videos! I live in a small Canadian city where we don't have catalog/fashion industry so it's fascinating to hear and see it straight from a pro in New York, as well as your talented models. I really appreciate your content that goes beyond the technical and gear. The real goods such as expression, mood, perspective, philosophy, etc are gold and learning the 'why' is always appreciated. Too many youtubers just repeat the same content and don't explain the 'why' they're doing what they're doing. You give great insight and look forward to more of it. Fantastic work!
Great stuff. In addition to your new 6-8 minute one-subject tutotials, these new 15-20 minute philosophy sessions are really great as well. You cover the topics well.
I shot professionally for several agencies in Southern California 25+ years ago and for a time made a decent living. Then auto-focus, auto-exposure came along and 1 agency stopped calling me because the ADs started shooting all the catalog stuff that needed nothing more than a correct exposure and to be in focus. Then digital came along, a couple more agencies stopped calling because the owner's kid could point a camera in the right direction, auto focus, shoot and chimp until they had a usable image. Most of the pros I know left town, went broke or just changed occupation. Today you tell someone you're a photographer and they ask how much you charge for a wedding, assuming that's what you shoot, because that's all most do shoot. I watch all your videos Daniel and wonder who actually thinks they're going to make a living at it. I hope they're really talented and business savvy because the business model you worked with Daniel rarely exists anymore. The best car shooters have lost a major segment of their business to CGI, they shoot the locations with no cars and the CGI artist uses the background environment's light to model the reflections on the CGI car. The same thing is being done with models in Europe, no need to retouch, perfect skin, exact fit of the clothes every time. TTL on the B1X and the Elinchroms just make it so a monkey can shoot. Yes you can use it to get close and then go manual, but that's not what I see happening. B10 has a video light and it's ultra compact, no assistant needed at the weeding, flip the Nikon Z6/7 between stills and video mode and it keeps your set up for each, app to control the B10 light between continuous and flash, or use both and drag the shutter to add some warmth, upload your images from the Wi-Fi in the camera to a dropbox account. Use an app the get paid and go home. AI in the new phone cameras to assist, UHD with every shot, 12MP and more to come. Should I continue... ? Profoto academy, TH-cam category Education, #bts #education #flash_mates. That's what I see. $19 a photo will get you nowhere but there's a line out the door for the gig.
You make some solid points but I’ll also say that even when I was working my way up, fee people made it. Only those who really stick with it and mix business sense with skill. This those working these jobs IMO are likely to not reach beyond.
Thank you Daniel! Great job! I would rather carry the equipment as an assistant 100 a day then have a non creative job with minimal learning making 150 a day. I believe these jobs have their value though for those that do not have the equipment and or confidence to go it alone. They could also be a transitional place for some and a place for the less experienced. I do agree that higher end projects will go to higher end photographers. I am a new photographer and I am beating the streets and knocking on doors so to speak to get business. For myself, the passion for photography is not only the art itself, but also in the freedoms it provides to express and explore the world.
These sit down chats are very informative. I used to work as an assistant back in the mid 80’s, and the studio I worked at pretty much ran on catalog work. The industry has changed so much since then.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys. If you want monkeys that's fine - as you say Daniel there is always a place for a 'budget' photo business... The risk however is that these cheaper 'photo grinder' businesses can tarnish the reputation of all pro photographers, which makes it even more essential to differentiate your brand from theirs. Good, well reasoned comments - thanks.
Captain Malcolm Reynolds FireFly (TV Show): "Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. ->> I do the job. And then I get paid." Great video, thanks!!!
I made a huge mistake about 8 years ago when I slowed down and virtually stopped doing shoots. Now as I try to re-enter the industry I'm seeing clients that don't want to pay and "Instagram models" who don't want to show up to a scheduled shoot. I know I need to rebuild my book again and so I'm willing to do some trade work for the shots I want. That being said, I am actively avoiding the $19 photo gigs because history has taught me that once you start at a discounted rate, it's unbelievably difficult to raise the fee once people are used to the already been set rate. Thank you Daniel for all these videos you keep putting out. They are definitely inspirational and get my creative juices flowing again! Would you have any advice and or tips for someone getting back into the industry?
This is super interesting. I have a background in carpentry, specifically renovations in the mid to high price bracket. Other than working with a technically competent team of craftspeople, the biggest difference between us and the budget options was that we could deliver something that had the right “feel” for the client, we took the time to understand their specific needs and wants and could build that for them. Photography really is a trade, that continually surprises me.
Daniel. I have shot for a photo library, on film 20 years ago. Not people but cars. He supplied the film and developed it.and sold these images to magazines, like hot rod, hot car. I did this for 3 years on an ad hoch basis. Every month some film would arive, with a list of cars he wanted. Every now and again i would get a checque in the post for £300.00 For the images he sold and used.
Very interesting topic Daniel. I own a tee shirt printing business and I see a fair amount of that stuff. There will always be the customer who doesn't know or care about how good your work is. The only thing that matters is that the shirt says "Happy birthday grandpa! and there are plenty of people working out of their basements that can do that kind of work all day long. But when someone needs a really spectacular shirt for their big trade show they need us professionals to pull it off. Keep up the great videos.
Really enjoying these series of videos - thanks. Competing on price is a race to the bottom - there will always be someone who'll underbid you. Competing on quality of images and customer service is much harder and few are prepared to put in the effort, so they'll stay in the 'competing by price' bracket (and always be unhappy) At best, your happy 'cheap' client will recommend you to their cheap friends - there are many markets and levels in photography and each person must make their own decision where they want to fit in. For $15/hr, I could do casual work at the local supermarket with no expertise or risk&cost regarding gear etc.
$20 would barely cover my travel expenses(what's a GWB toll these days? $15?), let alone my insurance. As soon as one of these "photographers" drops a strobe on someones head or a client trips over a cord we'll see how long this lasts. If I were already in the city on a job it might make some sense to pick up 1 of those jobs to cover lunch, but for most budding photographers it's a negative sum business model. If by chance you manage to pick up 4-5 $20 jobs in one day(unlikely since they would be spread out around the city and there are only so many hours in the day for travel/setup/shoot/teardown/upload photos/travel/setup...etc), after the company takes their cut, how much are you really making? The only way it would make sense for a budding photographer is as a way to build a portfolio.
I remember shooting engagement photos that the bride to be the top one because she said they were bad photos. They were bad because she had stop dying her hair because she was pregnant and she had a dark streak in her part.
For decades now, Corporations have been looking to cut cost with no regard to the consequences or loss of quality. This sounds like more of this mind set.
A couple of things you have to realize , 1 customer still have a high expectation , and because you work for the company , 2 you don't have copyright , you need to ask permission to show your own work , 3 You still have to provide your own camera and lights .
Photo mills don't really bother me. I truly believe that I don't compete with them. The point of what kind of client is going to hire this company hits the nail on the head.
I keep getting friends and relatives talking in concerned tones about the headshot factory in the mall - honestly they aren't my competition. I won't do what they do, and they can't provide the service that I can, so it's really not a worry 😄
Hey Daniel! Am I the friend you mentioned in the beginning asking you about the $15 photo service?! /flattered/ Thanks for a really good, detailed answer to what I was wondering about. I'm still very curious about how these services possibly make money or even break even. Or maybe they're just VC-backed and bleeding money. While I agree with you that, of course, for a catalog or big company, paying a seasoned photographer / profession is absolutely necessary, what about for businesses like the one I work for where a beautiful, artistic photo that fully captures a commercial need just isn't necessary? Are those $15, $19 dollar "pay for what you keep" services at all filling a needed niche, or are they simply making it even harder for newbie photographers to make a sustainable living and delegitimizing the industry as a whole?
You are indeed! I would say this, if a you take the time from your day to be photographed and the results are not usable, is the time that was wasted worth the difference in price for a more “sure thing”? I think this is simply looking to replace the $100 headshot level and likely will not impact the industry greatly at any level higher than that.
This is a great video - I appreciate your insight and your willingness to share your experience. It seems that many people devalue what a photographer produces. Many young photogs are being brainwashed into thinking that photography isn't valuable. I think young photogs need to be aware that there is a wide range in the photographic market with a variety of price points. Knowing the market means not being taken advantage of. Again thanks for your insights.
For photographers fresh out of school while that work arrangement doesn't allow them to really show what they're capable of producing, it is a great way to get their feet wet with a regular stream of recognizable client brands.
@@DanielNortonPhotographer I've seen people doing this a lot - claiming to have shot for big brands when really they were an associate photographer or camera operator. I worked on movie sets during my late teens but I can't claim to have been hired by George Lucas or Andrew Adamson. Did I work on some films? Yes, but did I *make* them? Debatable.
It's probably going to allow companies that would have used stock before to get unique images made just for them, they may not be amazing - but they'd be custom.
I've just had a wee look at the Naked Poppy web site (one of the clients featured on their web site). I think they are setting the bar at "slightly better than the office junior with their phone" or "more relevant than a stock image that we can download for free". If I can reference Fstoppers, I kept hearing Lee and Patrick voice in my head giving the shots 2, maybe 2.5 stars. -Rory-
There is a local photographer that does something similar. When a local school has a prom he will announce a location at a park and kids can come get a nice prom photo taken for a small fee. Then the purchase whatever photos or prints they want at an additional cost.
One of my college jobs was working as a photographer for a national portrait company shooting family portraits in random grocery store that moved around. It was just freelancing. This was back in the late 80s. We would have a team of photographers and salesmen. I had probably the best team because the average photographer was making about $60 each portrait sitting and our team was making almost triple that. We would shoot a whole bunch of family portraits in the middle of the grocery store then they would come pick them up the following week and the sales team would try to sell them large packages. My biggest weapon was I had a makeup artist/fellow student who mostly powdered everyone so they wouldn't be shiny. I also brought some basic wardrobe for everyone to use. Great memories and I learned a lot about handling people and sales. We all start somewhere. I don't have any hate for these companies that hire young photographers. Thanks for a great video.
Good morning, I'm not sure if you've mentioned this in other videos, but how do you 'show' clients the product aside from shutting tethered? Is there a way to let them preview the image without letting how of useable files, raw for instance?
As an older (mid 40's) changing careers. Sales/Sales management to Photography (Real Estate/ Head Shots).... Hell No. My case is semi unusual in that I have a minor in photography I just didn't use it professionally for a few years but stayed current as a hobbyist. I'm fully in the camp of a fair price for a fair service. I decide if I want to lower my price. example: multiple bookings from 1 agent, that's good business. But there is zero chance of me doing a free shoot for anyone. They are NOT paying just for my time at the shoot. They are paying for all the time I've spent learning this craft. They are paying for my equipment that can get a beautiful interior while not having blown out windows so you see the view. The fact that my lens does not distort the room like their I-Phone. ....on and on. So while I can see some... kids still in school doing this, not for me or my peers. But like you said, "the $19.00 customer is not the same one as the $10,000". In my case its $500-$1000. But same difference.
I totally agree , shoot if there is going to be reasonable payment because later on it will harder to push prices up and on the basis of if they like the photos definitely not even if you are starting your time and equipment has a value.
This sounds similar to Zero Hours Contract Employment which is plaguing the UK. You have a job but only get paid for the hours you work and some days you might not work any hours at all. It sucks. If you can possibly avoid it do so. The idea that you might get some exposure for shooting for Vogue is totally undermined by the fact that if the company doesn't like what you produce, then you don't get paid. That's like saying 'I sat in a Ferrari once... but it wasn't mine'. A lot of industries are trying to maximise profitability/reduce overheads by coming up with schemes that might initially sound attractive but inevitably cause heartbreak. As a photographer you should be paid for producing what is required and on time. If you fail then your reputation goes down the spout. I guess that a lot of young people new to the photographic industry would be naive enough to embark upon such things but long term, the results are going to speak for themselves. Sooner or later it will probably go back to the old tried and trusted way of doing things and life will be good again.
I headed to the local drug store to have the high school employee earning minimum wage who normally stocks shelves to take my 2”x2” passport photo on a camera with less image definition than a Samsung phone. It’s outrageous to pay $20.00 for a bad photo with bad lighting of me sitting against the wall in an office chair. With almost no outlay in equipment and store space the upper executives and stock holders will benefit handsomely from the stock clerk’s labor.
Too many art Directors or Companies have contempt for the skills of a professional photographer and think it just needs a mindless unskilled button presser...
I’m not sure I would use the word contempt, but I do think people don’t necessarily understand what is involved in making a professional quality photograph.
I would love to do photography as a job but as I have serious sight loss so I get tired way too quickly. Also I would have to do weddings etc to make money
You know I am watching this a couple of years after you put this out and I do photography just as a hobby and I will do a few senior pictures once in a while for some friends but just to watch and listen to what your saying I see there's a few issues, which is how much is your time really worth? because you still have to take the pictures and set up, and maybe there's a few hours and then you still have to process all the images, then to only get $20 or $30 for the pictures they like just isn't worth it, even in my eyes as a hobbyist. I get the the fact of saving money, but not like that. Now if I shoot them from my phone...well maybe 🤔
Good day Daniel. A great editorial but I also enjoyed this personal retrospective. Just wondering if that company you described is still in operation? Also, possible topic for another day, how did you come to work for Adorama?
I don’t know.. perhaps I will look through my files to find the name and see. I suspect they are on some level. How I came to Adorama is a video in an of itself lol
UberEats is actually already doing it. Working "freelance" style for them and another company from France. ShutterStock Custom is another company that 'eats' most of the photographer's cut.And there are several more.
I can't see this working for long. Around 5-8 years ago the agency I worked for stopped getting as many of the small to medium pr jobs. What was happening was "Allen in accounts" at the or firm had a decent DSLR and he'd do it for half a day out the office. This lasted a while but they came back in the end because the quality just wasn't their and the same will happen here.
I'd complain about the 480P if Marisa was in the video but since it's "just" Daniel ;-), and it's all about the audio anyway, I don't mind the 480P. I had a Canon 5DMk II whose video would randomly have a blue, red or yellow cast over the whole image like I'd gelled it that way. That was a problem. It'd also do that to photos, but only maybe 1 out of 100.
Only about the audio,.... and Marisa barely speaks in these vids. :D Maybe Daniel can shoot some 'models point of view' pieces, where the models can explain what they expect on shoots - pay conditions, behaviour, building client contact libraries..
Its "Weekly Imogen's" format in many ways, but it'd be good to get the US viewpoint, as I'm sure there are differences in the ways of working due to the different cultures.
I kinda do this but only because I'm there anyway. Have show dogs that gets around and since I'm already there I shoot winner photos. JPEGs straight out of camera, $10 and it's starting to cover entry fees and additional costs. It's not like a day job but I get the most out of time already spent by shooting "may sell" photos at a low price!
Working for Exposure,.... People die of exposure. For a young photog just getting started, if they're doing this work and getting paid a fair hourly wage, go for it, get the experience, and use it as a learning opportunity. If they're only getting a cut of the sales, Eff that right off, that's like working for tips at places too cheap to pay a proper respectful wage. (Tipping doesn't exist the same way here in Australia, thanks to labor laws that prevent people being under-paid. Some places have a tipping jar, but the staff still have to be paid 'Award Wages') The bigger question will be, how long will these businesses be open, with what would appear to be an unsustainable business model. The only thing I can think of the would sustain it, is if the business is a deliberate money pit, to write down it's expenditures as a loss to a larger business, to use that for taxation minimization.
Good points. I’m guessing the company providing the photography keeps the rights to all images in an attempt to build a larger stock library. But that is just me guessing
There is the old saying "The cream always rises to the top". As I see this I think of wedding photographers. In that aspect of the business, there have always been the better/main wedding photographers and the GWCs that will shoot a wedding for $500.00. No father that has means would hire a $500.00 photographer to shoot his precious daughter's wedding. If the family has no means then they might have no other choice. But the top wedding photographers never lose business to the GWCs.
I'm new to photography but I wouldn't do that for a company. A company would have the necessary budget to pay me minimum 500$ for an event photography gig. But I would do that for anyone who just wants to have a personal photoshoot for their portfolio. Like say a model who wants to have more portrait shot of themself.
Feels like they are trying to turn photography into a one size fits all big box store product. Next there will be a pop-up headshot studio in a box - You roll out the backdrop and it has an X marks the spot for subject, lights, tri-pod, and so on. All the lights are preset to one power setting and you set your camera to what the instructions tell you and fire a-way. Very sad that the talent and know how in so many industries is being lost.
im in the UK & ive seen recently some large online retailers / fashion houses advertising photography jobs again & again .. all very low wages . im tempted to try out for the job to get my foot in the door & to gain experience but nervous as if they keep advertising the same job ,they must have a very high turn over of photographers... seems like they are using up & coming togs working on very low salary ... ?
Hi everyone. Just wandering, how those who are new to photography, still learning and gaining experience, should charge for their services. Well, it is obvious that high level outputs will not be delivered, but still working for free doesn't make any sense. Charging per produced photography, or per working hour? What about editing hours? Have no idea... Many thanks in advance! Greetings!
It is human nature that when a precedent exists like offering such a cheap rate, there will be a following on both sides ( the photographer and client). Another huge issue is the advancement of software and what is possible in post.... the average photograph these days gets turned into 'works of art' for 5 bucks! Sad but true :(
I must be a little fuzzy on how this stuff works. If the client ends up only liking one image, they only pay $19 and that would have to pay for the photographer's time, the studio's time, the stylist and makeup artist, etc? How many people would be out of pocket if the client didn't want many of the images? Or do they also have to cover the basic costs and it's only the photographer that is out of pocket if they don't like the images? For most things, people really only need a single photograph out of the set. For example, you're shooting a band for the cover of their album. Really, they only need one image for it.
I see this problem in two parts; first, photographers are a dime a dozen now... Good experienced photographers on the other hand, that's another story. I even know people who shoot documentaries on their phone and think they're the next J.J. Abrams..... Second; the customers (at least 80% of them anyway) do not know the difference and don't care... until they receive the photos. How often do you see people getting married and it's the nephew or the uncle who's taking the photos because it's way cheaper that way... until the photos are delivered and then it's another story... but getting married is a one shot deal. You have to deliver because there is no reshoot. There will always be a market for cheap, low quality stuff... the dollar stores make a fortune for that reason. On the other hand, if you want quality gear or services, there's that too. I did 10 years as a school photographer only to be told in the end that it's way cheaper to hire photographers with no experience for minimum wage to get the same results. Really? After going that way, the place I was working for lost half their customers (schools) in only 1 year because the photos they received were total crap. Bad lighting, bad framing, no white balance (on green screen), you name it... I now work for another place who understand that there is a market out there for quality product and 10 years experience is worth something. We now have more schools than the other place and the photos are selling like hotcakes. So don't despair, there is work out there for good photographers who know what they are doing. Thank you Daniel for another super interesting video. You rock! :-)
It’s not a good thing if it results in people booking them for speculative projects, tying the photographer up for the day and then going ‘no, really don’t like any of those’ and not paying. Nobody wins in that model; but it’s just ‘zero hours contracts’ by another name.
Nice conversation about the low end of photography payments. I was also working for a product company that I was way over there heads in photography, plus they would not get any new gear, they did not want to hear any advice in there process. I just had to keep it to my self, at one time the two other photographer's that work there came into my studio and told me that I was making them look bad for upping the game. Another place I worked two of the photographers did not even know what a F stop was. The supervisor was also clueless at that company. So when you get guys that click the shutter and have now background in photography the client thinks that how it is and why would I pay high wage. This is what has become the detail quick click way now. It all looks so ezy!
The thought of someone paying 19 bucks is ridiculous. There is a different caliber in every photographer. When you see their images the price should reflect their quality. The low price also reflects on the targeted client.
I was thinking about this and wondering if the images would belong to the photographer. I'll bet the images would belong to the company arranging this photo shoot. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. I know when I worked for a company (not photography) any idea or invention or whatever that I came up with in connection with being employed by that company became the intellectual property of that company. Yes, I had to sign an agreement saying the company would own the rights to any invention etc. So, I'm guessing these images will not belong to the photographer? If that's the case why are they willing to do this except for maybe a small paycheck? How are they going to learn to interact with a client if they aspire to be a professional photographer? How are they going to learn to market themselves? How are they going to learn to handle the accounting work? If the paycheck is all they want then they should just get a job at the nearest Walmart Portrait Studio. I'm just starting out but I'm definitely not a 20 something. If I want to start my own business then I'm not going to learn much just going to a place, shoot pictures, go home and collect a paycheck. Sure the risks are low doing that kind of thing but what does one learn?
This just makes me cringe. The sad thing is, people starting out will take it. The images will be crap, and nobody will grow. It should be rejected by anyone with an ounce of self respect! Cheers Daniel
The trend these days is that most people (consumers) are just fine with monkeys, they seam almost allergic to "quality ", clients are well aware of that, so why not pay peanuts, anything works they think.. ( great video by the way Daniel)
To work for $19 is too low a price with all of the time and money spent on a photo project especially the time it takes to edit the photos. For a few hours at a corporate event shoot, they should expect to pay about $400.
Unfortunately that's the real face of the industry. Industry wants to do the job by paying the minimum wage no matter what trade. And here is the future: companies like the one that you mentioned will hire 1 high end photographer to control everything and then 10ths of newbies for minimum wage to do the job. Good luck to all off us in this new modern economy thing lol
seems like my Sony is acting up, gotta figure out why, having focus and other issues suddenly after a year of working great. - the video seems very compressed looking to me
Daniel Norton Photographer I agree. I almost thought you were going for an old style video recording then after seeing the side camera, I realized it wasn’t the case.
When you allow yourself to work for almost nothing the customer will take upon himself to be your art director despite the fact to he knows nothing about art or photography. The result is the you will slowly and steadily build yourself a solid reputation for mediocrity.
At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. I doubt very much that the photos by someone that's just working for an hourly wage, is going to be as creative as someone whose reputation is on the line.
I did hourly working in a Sears portrait studio. The pay wasn't great but I put the same effort in as if it was my own place. Obviously I wasn't shooting anything super creative though(kids/family photos/some headshots). The biggest issue was the lack of resources. There were only a few generic backgrounds.
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I agree with you, Daniel. As a person who spent their life as a musician, (drummer/arranger) the lure for this sort of work seems to be that the young photographers should do it "for the exposure". That phrase strikes a nerve with most musicians I know, and triggers a "Hell, no", response in most of us. I also agree about the precedent... that the client apparently has no trust in the photographer, if they're possibly only going to buy a percentage of the work. No, no, no! If you do the work, you should be paid properly, according to the the quality levels you produce. Part of this learning experience is tough, when you're young and broke, or "looking for your big break", and that is the willingness to say no, and seek better opportunities.
Well said
You do such a nice job of presenting this type of “controversial” topic. No histrionics. Just a nice delivery of your experienced perspective. Really well done.
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Daniel - Holy Shit! Seriously you are addressing a niche that really needs attention. I am a (somewhat new) commercial photographer doing many of the kinds of shoots you describe. I have clients that are literally "on the fence" because they see me as kind of expensive, yet they see my work and know they need that level of quality. They face a dilemma - do I go cheap and settle for cheap images, or do step up and pay a fair price for top notch results? I deal with this often and I try to stay strong. There are times when I'm tempted to do the cheap work for cheap prices, but I resist. Man its hard sometimes!
Daniel - I cant tell you how important it is to me to have you share your professional experience with us. This is huge for me - Thank You! Seriously, this is gold!
Oh - and also - I owe you at least a beer. If you ever get to Halifax NS, Canada you seriously need to look me up. I'll have you quickly at a table of photographers at a local pub talking about all the cool shit we love to talk about and the first round (maybe single malt?) is on me! www.ktrudeauphotography.com Send me a note - let's connect!
Awesome! Glad you can relate. Stay strong would be my advice, those that want quality are still out there
People are trying to find the next Uber and AirBnB and become billionaires. People with little understanding of photography believe that just like ride sharing where you "share" your car and driving skills, you can do the same with photography. The problem is that driving isn't as much of a learning curve as photography is even forgetting the artistic flair needed. Yes cameras are getting more easy to shoot with, but looking at industry sales, cameras sold per year is decreasing. So this means reduced supply that would only increase the price for work. The argument with Uber and such is that you are creating a new network bring new buyers and sellers who would never been without that market. But as you said, an influx of millions from Wall St to put DSLRs into the hands of thousands of amateurs isn't going to give new clients expecting professional work satisfaction.
Good observations
Fantastic content and delivery in your videos!
I live in a small Canadian city where we don't have catalog/fashion industry so it's fascinating to hear and see it straight from a pro in New York, as well as your talented models.
I really appreciate your content that goes beyond the technical and gear. The real goods such as expression, mood, perspective, philosophy, etc are gold and learning the 'why' is always appreciated.
Too many youtubers just repeat the same content and don't explain the 'why' they're doing what they're doing. You give great insight and look forward to more of it.
Fantastic work!
Thanks!!
Great stuff. In addition to your new 6-8 minute one-subject tutotials, these new 15-20 minute philosophy sessions are really great as well. You cover the topics well.
Thanks!
I shot professionally for several agencies in Southern California 25+ years ago and for a time made a decent living. Then auto-focus, auto-exposure came along and 1 agency stopped calling me because the ADs started shooting all the catalog stuff that needed nothing more than a correct exposure and to be in focus. Then digital came along, a couple more agencies stopped calling because the owner's kid could point a camera in the right direction, auto focus, shoot and chimp until they had a usable image. Most of the pros I know left town, went broke or just changed occupation.
Today you tell someone you're a photographer and they ask how much you charge for a wedding, assuming that's what you shoot, because that's all most do shoot. I watch all your videos Daniel and wonder who actually thinks they're going to make a living at it. I hope they're really talented and business savvy because the business model you worked with Daniel rarely exists anymore.
The best car shooters have lost a major segment of their business to CGI, they shoot the locations with no cars and the CGI artist uses the background environment's light to model the reflections on the CGI car. The same thing is being done with models in Europe, no need to retouch, perfect skin, exact fit of the clothes every time.
TTL on the B1X and the Elinchroms just make it so a monkey can shoot. Yes you can use it to get close and then go manual, but that's not what I see happening. B10 has a video light and it's ultra compact, no assistant needed at the weeding, flip the Nikon Z6/7 between stills and video mode and it keeps your set up for each, app to control the B10 light between continuous and flash, or use both and drag the shutter to add some warmth, upload your images from the Wi-Fi in the camera to a dropbox account. Use an app the get paid and go home.
AI in the new phone cameras to assist, UHD with every shot, 12MP and more to come.
Should I continue... ?
Profoto academy, TH-cam category Education, #bts #education #flash_mates.
That's what I see. $19 a photo will get you nowhere but there's a line out the door for the gig.
You make some solid points but I’ll also say that even when I was working my way up, fee people made it. Only those who really stick with it and mix business sense with skill. This those working these jobs IMO are likely to not reach beyond.
Good video. This is what i needed to hear. Too many youtube photography videos not bringing up these important points. Thanks for this!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you Daniel! Great job! I would rather carry the equipment as an assistant 100 a day then have a non creative job with minimal learning making 150 a day. I believe these jobs have their value though for those that do not have the equipment and or confidence to go it alone. They could also be a transitional place for some and a place for the less experienced. I do agree that higher end projects will go to higher end photographers. I am a new photographer and I am beating the streets and knocking on doors so to speak to get business. For myself, the passion for photography is not only the art itself, but also in the freedoms it provides to express and explore the world.
Great!
Excellent advice Daniel for those who are attempting to start a career in photography.
Thank You!
These sit down chats are very informative. I used to work as an assistant back in the mid 80’s, and the studio I worked at pretty much ran on catalog work. The industry has changed so much since then.
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Pay peanuts, get monkeys. If you want monkeys that's fine - as you say Daniel there is always a place for a 'budget' photo business... The risk however is that these cheaper 'photo grinder' businesses can tarnish the reputation of all pro photographers, which makes it even more essential to differentiate your brand from theirs. Good, well reasoned comments - thanks.
True. If it’s the first interaction the company has with a “pro” they may be turned off from hiring any photographers
Captain Malcolm Reynolds FireFly (TV Show): "Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear.
->> I do the job. And then I get paid."
Great video, thanks!!!
I made a huge mistake about 8 years ago when I slowed down and virtually stopped doing shoots. Now as I try to re-enter the industry I'm seeing clients that don't want to pay and "Instagram models" who don't want to show up to a scheduled shoot. I know I need to rebuild my book again and so I'm willing to do some trade work for the shots I want. That being said, I am actively avoiding the $19 photo gigs because history has taught me that once you start at a discounted rate, it's unbelievably difficult to raise the fee once people are used to the already been set rate.
Thank you Daniel for all these videos you keep putting out. They are definitely inspirational and get my creative juices flowing again!
Would you have any advice and or tips for someone getting back into the industry?
Good point. Reach out to clients you want to work with and avoid clients that do not value your work
I really look forward to your videos you have such a Real down-to-earth and realistic approach to photography thank you
Thanks!
Glad you included us 30's/40's late bloomers 😉
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This is super interesting. I have a background in carpentry, specifically renovations in the mid to high price bracket. Other than working with a technically competent team of craftspeople, the biggest difference between us and the budget options was that we could deliver something that had the right “feel” for the client, we took the time to understand their specific needs and wants and could build that for them.
Photography really is a trade, that continually surprises me.
For sure
Daniel.
I have shot for a photo library, on film 20 years ago. Not people but cars. He supplied the film and developed it.and sold these images to magazines, like hot rod, hot car. I did this for 3 years on an ad hoch basis.
Every month some film would arive, with a list of cars he wanted. Every now and again i would get a checque in the post for £300.00
For the images he sold and used.
Very interesting topic Daniel. I own a tee shirt printing business and I see a fair amount of that stuff. There will always be the customer who doesn't know or care about how good your work is. The only thing that matters is that the shirt says "Happy birthday grandpa! and there are plenty of people working out of their basements that can do that kind of work all day long. But when someone needs a really spectacular shirt for their big trade show they need us professionals to pull it off. Keep up the great videos.
Interesting to see this is not unique to photo
Really enjoying these series of videos - thanks. Competing on price is a race to the bottom - there will always be someone who'll underbid you. Competing on quality of images and customer service is much harder and few are prepared to put in the effort, so they'll stay in the 'competing by price' bracket (and always be unhappy)
At best, your happy 'cheap' client will recommend you to their cheap friends - there are many markets and levels in photography and each person must make their own decision where they want to fit in. For $15/hr, I could do casual work at the local supermarket with no expertise or risk&cost regarding gear etc.
Good points!
$20 would barely cover my travel expenses(what's a GWB toll these days? $15?), let alone my insurance. As soon as one of these "photographers" drops a strobe on someones head or a client trips over a cord we'll see how long this lasts.
If I were already in the city on a job it might make some sense to pick up 1 of those jobs to cover lunch, but for most budding photographers it's a negative sum business model. If by chance you manage to pick up 4-5 $20 jobs in one day(unlikely since they would be spread out around the city and there are only so many hours in the day for travel/setup/shoot/teardown/upload photos/travel/setup...etc), after the company takes their cut, how much are you really making?
The only way it would make sense for a budding photographer is as a way to build a portfolio.
yeah, it doesn't seem like enough money to support the effort
Oh, gods yes - imagine just having to replace equipment at that price!? Not a sustainable business model.
Fascinating insight into your experiences Daniel. Thanks for sharing!
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I remember shooting engagement photos that the bride to be the top one because she said they were bad photos. They were bad because she had stop dying her hair because she was pregnant and she had a dark streak in her part.
For decades now, Corporations have been looking to cut cost with no regard to the consequences or loss of quality. This sounds like more of this mind set.
A couple of things you have to realize , 1 customer still have a high expectation , and because you work for the company , 2 you don't have copyright , you need to ask permission to show your own work , 3 You still have to provide your own camera and lights .
Yeah...
Really depends. I think if you are a beginner you can do it if you are competent and know what you are doing. But a base rate is good.
Photo mills don't really bother me. I truly believe that I don't compete with them. The point of what kind of client is going to hire this company hits the nail on the head.
thanks!
I keep getting friends and relatives talking in concerned tones about the headshot factory in the mall - honestly they aren't my competition. I won't do what they do, and they can't provide the service that I can, so it's really not a worry 😄
Hey Daniel! Am I the friend you mentioned in the beginning asking you about the $15 photo service?! /flattered/ Thanks for a really good, detailed answer to what I was wondering about. I'm still very curious about how these services possibly make money or even break even. Or maybe they're just VC-backed and bleeding money. While I agree with you that, of course, for a catalog or big company, paying a seasoned photographer / profession is absolutely necessary, what about for businesses like the one I work for where a beautiful, artistic photo that fully captures a commercial need just isn't necessary? Are those $15, $19 dollar "pay for what you keep" services at all filling a needed niche, or are they simply making it even harder for newbie photographers to make a sustainable living and delegitimizing the industry as a whole?
You are indeed! I would say this, if a you take the time from your day to be photographed and the results are not usable, is the time that was wasted worth the difference in price for a more “sure thing”? I think this is simply looking to replace the $100 headshot level and likely will not impact the industry greatly at any level higher than that.
This is a great video - I appreciate your insight and your willingness to share your experience. It seems that many people devalue what a photographer produces. Many young photogs are being brainwashed into thinking that photography isn't valuable. I think young photogs need to be aware that there is a wide range in the photographic market with a variety of price points. Knowing the market means not being taken advantage of. Again thanks for your insights.
True! Thanks!
For photographers fresh out of school while that work arrangement doesn't allow them to really show what they're capable of producing, it is a great way to get their feet wet with a regular
stream of recognizable client brands.
So do you think they should put the big-name on their client list or the name of the company that set the work up for them?
@@DanielNortonPhotographer I've seen people doing this a lot - claiming to have shot for big brands when really they were an associate photographer or camera operator.
I worked on movie sets during my late teens but I can't claim to have been hired by George Lucas or Andrew Adamson. Did I work on some films? Yes, but did I *make* them? Debatable.
Thanks Daniel for very good content as always!
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Very interesting topic. Cheers
It's probably going to allow companies that would have used stock before to get unique images made just for them, they may not be amazing - but they'd be custom.
Yup, I think that’s the idea
I've just had a wee look at the Naked Poppy web site (one of the clients featured on their web site). I think they are setting the bar at "slightly better than the office junior with their phone" or "more relevant than a stock image that we can download for free".
If I can reference Fstoppers, I kept hearing Lee and Patrick voice in my head giving the shots 2, maybe 2.5 stars.
-Rory-
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There is a local photographer that does something similar. When a local school has a prom he will announce a location at a park and kids can come get a nice prom photo taken for a small fee. Then the purchase whatever photos or prints they want at an additional cost.
In that case though it is one setup with many sittings. I imagine these services being a single client
One of my college jobs was working as a photographer for a national portrait company shooting family portraits in random grocery store that moved around. It was just freelancing. This was back in the late 80s. We would have a team of photographers and salesmen. I had probably the best team because the average photographer was making about $60 each portrait sitting and our team was making almost triple that. We would shoot a whole bunch of family portraits in the middle of the grocery store then they would come pick them up the following week and the sales team would try to sell them large packages. My biggest weapon was I had a makeup artist/fellow student who mostly powdered everyone so they wouldn't be shiny. I also brought some basic wardrobe for everyone to use. Great memories and I learned a lot about handling people and sales. We all start somewhere. I don't have any hate for these companies that hire young photographers. Thanks for a great video.
Cool story! Thanks!
Good morning, I'm not sure if you've mentioned this in other videos, but how do you 'show' clients the product aside from shutting tethered? Is there a way to let them preview the image without letting how of useable files, raw for instance?
As an older (mid 40's) changing careers. Sales/Sales management to Photography (Real Estate/ Head Shots).... Hell No. My case is semi unusual in that I have a minor in photography I just didn't use it professionally for a few years but stayed current as a hobbyist. I'm fully in the camp of a fair price for a fair service. I decide if I want to lower my price. example: multiple bookings from 1 agent, that's good business. But there is zero chance of me doing a free shoot for anyone. They are NOT paying just for my time at the shoot. They are paying for all the time I've spent learning this craft. They are paying for my equipment that can get a beautiful interior while not having blown out windows so you see the view. The fact that my lens does not distort the room like their I-Phone. ....on and on.
So while I can see some... kids still in school doing this, not for me or my peers. But like you said, "the $19.00 customer is not the same one as the $10,000". In my case its $500-$1000. But same difference.
Good points
I totally agree , shoot if there is going to be reasonable payment because later on it will harder to push prices up and on the basis of if they like the photos definitely not even if you are starting your time and equipment has a value.
Yup
This sounds similar to Zero Hours Contract Employment which is plaguing the UK. You have a job but only get paid for the hours you work and some days you might not work any hours at all. It sucks. If you can possibly avoid it do so. The idea that you might get some exposure for shooting for Vogue is totally undermined by the fact that if the company doesn't like what you produce, then you don't get paid. That's like saying 'I sat in a Ferrari once... but it wasn't mine'. A lot of industries are trying to maximise profitability/reduce overheads by coming up with schemes that might initially sound attractive but inevitably cause heartbreak. As a photographer you should be paid for producing what is required and on time. If you fail then your reputation goes down the spout. I guess that a lot of young people new to the photographic industry would be naive enough to embark upon such things but long term, the results are going to speak for themselves. Sooner or later it will probably go back to the old tried and trusted way of doing things and life will be good again.
I headed to the local drug store to have the high school employee earning minimum wage who normally stocks shelves to take my 2”x2” passport photo on a camera with less image definition than a Samsung phone. It’s outrageous to pay $20.00 for a bad photo with bad lighting of me sitting against the wall in an office chair. With almost no outlay in equipment and store space the upper executives and stock holders will benefit handsomely from the stock clerk’s labor.
Too many art Directors or Companies have contempt for the skills of a professional photographer and think it just needs a mindless unskilled button presser...
I’m not sure I would use the word contempt, but I do think people don’t necessarily understand what is involved in making a professional quality photograph.
I would love to do photography as a job but as I have serious sight loss so I get tired way too quickly. Also I would have to do weddings etc to make money
Do it for love then 😊
You know I am watching this a couple of years after you put this out and I do photography just as a hobby and I will do a few senior pictures once in a while for some friends but just to watch and listen to what your saying I see there's a few issues, which is how much is your time really worth? because you still have to take the pictures and set up, and maybe there's a few hours and then you still have to process all the images, then to only get $20 or $30 for the pictures they like just isn't worth it, even in my eyes as a hobbyist. I get the the fact of saving money, but not like that. Now if I shoot them from my phone...well maybe 🤔
There comes a point I think where the payment is so low I would rather just do it for free LOL
Good day Daniel. A great editorial but I also enjoyed this personal retrospective. Just wondering if that company you described is still in operation? Also, possible topic for another day, how did you come to work for Adorama?
I don’t know.. perhaps I will look through my files to find the name and see. I suspect they are on some level. How I came to Adorama is a video in an of itself lol
Interesting subject a kind photographic sweatshop!
Fucking interesting... I work as a photographer in Athens Greece and things are pretty dark here, i totally agree with you.
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UberEats is actually already doing it. Working "freelance" style for them and another company from France. ShutterStock Custom is another company that 'eats' most of the photographer's cut.And there are several more.
Interesting
Good observation for those who want to enter the market. And yes a difference in the cameras. But great improvement video talking.x
Thanks
Straight to the point. Great! You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs!
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I can't see this working for long. Around 5-8 years ago the agency I worked for stopped getting as many of the small to medium pr jobs. What was happening was "Allen in accounts" at the or firm had a decent DSLR and he'd do it for half a day out the office. This lasted a while but they came back in the end because the quality just wasn't their and the same will happen here.
Good point, also companies don’t consider that “Allen” isn’t free - they are paying him and he’s not doing his job!
Is it just me or is anyone else seeing the 480p look from front and 1080p from the side camera?
yeah, the front camera (Sony) is acting up
I looks like VHS to me :)
RETRO!
Nope, That's straight pout of the GoPro Hero 7 Black, I was testing it
Great response, very “seasoned “
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I'd complain about the 480P if Marisa was in the video but since it's "just" Daniel ;-), and it's all about the audio anyway, I don't mind the 480P. I had a Canon 5DMk II whose video would randomly have a blue, red or yellow cast over the whole image like I'd gelled it that way. That was a problem. It'd also do that to photos, but only maybe 1 out of 100.
I’m going to factory reset it and hope that fixes the problem
Only about the audio,.... and Marisa barely speaks in these vids. :D
Maybe Daniel can shoot some 'models point of view' pieces, where the models can explain what they expect on shoots - pay conditions, behaviour, building client contact libraries..
I did have a 2 hour chat with Marisa live a few weeks back, but something where they just talk to the camera? Haven't tried that yet.
Its "Weekly Imogen's" format in many ways, but it'd be good to get the US viewpoint, as I'm sure there are differences in the ways of working due to the different cultures.
I kinda do this but only because I'm there anyway. Have show dogs that gets around and since I'm already there I shoot winner photos. JPEGs straight out of camera, $10 and it's starting to cover entry fees and additional costs.
It's not like a day job but I get the most out of time already spent by shooting "may sell" photos at a low price!
Cool!
Working for Exposure,.... People die of exposure.
For a young photog just getting started, if they're doing this work and getting paid a fair hourly wage, go for it, get the experience, and use it as a learning opportunity.
If they're only getting a cut of the sales, Eff that right off, that's like working for tips at places too cheap to pay a proper respectful wage.
(Tipping doesn't exist the same way here in Australia, thanks to labor laws that prevent people being under-paid. Some places have a tipping jar, but the staff still have to be paid 'Award Wages')
The bigger question will be, how long will these businesses be open, with what would appear to be an unsustainable business model.
The only thing I can think of the would sustain it, is if the business is a deliberate money pit, to write down it's expenditures as a loss to a larger business, to use that for taxation minimization.
Good points. I’m guessing the company providing the photography keeps the rights to all images in an attempt to build a larger stock library. But that is just me guessing
There is the old saying "The cream always rises to the top". As I see this I think of wedding photographers. In that aspect of the business, there have always been the better/main wedding photographers and the GWCs that will shoot a wedding for $500.00. No father that has means would hire a $500.00 photographer to shoot his precious daughter's wedding. If the family has no means then they might have no other choice. But the top wedding photographers never lose business to the GWCs.
right, two different playing fields.
I'm new to photography but I wouldn't do that for a company. A company would have the necessary budget to pay me minimum 500$ for an event photography gig. But I would do that for anyone who just wants to have a personal photoshoot for their portfolio. Like say a model who wants to have more portrait shot of themself.
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Feels like they are trying to turn photography into a one size fits all big box store product. Next there will be a pop-up headshot studio in a box - You roll out the backdrop and it has an X marks the spot for subject, lights, tri-pod, and so on. All the lights are preset to one power setting and you set your camera to what the instructions tell you and fire a-way. Very sad that the talent and know how in so many industries is being lost.
For the lighting that actually exists. Mats with a place for the lights and subjects
im in the UK & ive seen recently some large online retailers / fashion houses advertising photography jobs again & again .. all very low wages . im tempted to try out for the job to get my foot in the door & to gain experience but nervous as if they keep advertising the same job ,they must have a very high turn over of photographers... seems like they are using up & coming togs working on very low salary ... ?
That’s what it sounds like
Hi everyone. Just wandering, how those who are new to photography, still learning and gaining experience, should charge for their services. Well, it is obvious that high level outputs will not be delivered, but still working for free doesn't make any sense. Charging per produced photography, or per working hour? What about editing hours? Have no idea... Many thanks in advance! Greetings!
I would not charge until you are sure you can deliver.
This kind of plays into the “mini session” for portraits that is common in this area. I’ve been told it’s lucrative but I don’t understand what it is.
Maybe selling prints?
Nope. Images only.
It is human nature that when a precedent exists like offering such a cheap rate, there will be a following on both sides ( the photographer and client).
Another huge issue is the advancement of software and what is possible in post.... the average photograph these days gets turned into 'works of art' for 5 bucks!
Sad but true :(
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I must be a little fuzzy on how this stuff works. If the client ends up only liking one image, they only pay $19 and that would have to pay for the photographer's time, the studio's time, the stylist and makeup artist, etc? How many people would be out of pocket if the client didn't want many of the images? Or do they also have to cover the basic costs and it's only the photographer that is out of pocket if they don't like the images? For most things, people really only need a single photograph out of the set. For example, you're shooting a band for the cover of their album. Really, they only need one image for it.
Yeah, it seems a bit off, I’m curious where it will go
The business model doesn't make sense to me.
I see this problem in two parts; first, photographers are a dime a dozen now... Good experienced photographers on the other hand, that's another story. I even know people who shoot documentaries on their phone and think they're the next J.J. Abrams..... Second; the customers (at least 80% of them anyway) do not know the difference and don't care... until they receive the photos. How often do you see people getting married and it's the nephew or the uncle who's taking the photos because it's way cheaper that way... until the photos are delivered and then it's another story... but getting married is a one shot deal. You have to deliver because there is no reshoot. There will always be a market for cheap, low quality stuff... the dollar stores make a fortune for that reason. On the other hand, if you want quality gear or services, there's that too. I did 10 years as a school photographer only to be told in the end that it's way cheaper to hire photographers with no experience for minimum wage to get the same results. Really? After going that way, the place I was working for lost half their customers (schools) in only 1 year because the photos they received were total crap. Bad lighting, bad framing, no white balance (on green screen), you name it... I now work for another place who understand that there is a market out there for quality product and 10 years experience is worth something. We now have more schools than the other place and the photos are selling like hotcakes. So don't despair, there is work out there for good photographers who know what they are doing. Thank you Daniel for another super interesting video. You rock! :-)
Great example!
What is a sillo(? ) in this context?
And image to be cut out (against white typically)
It is just like with cars, there will always be a demand for cheap cars and there always be a demand for Ferrari's, and everything in between.
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It’s not a good thing if it results in people booking them for speculative projects, tying the photographer up for the day and then going ‘no, really don’t like any of those’ and not paying. Nobody wins in that model; but it’s just ‘zero hours contracts’ by another name.
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Nice conversation about the low end of photography payments. I was also working for a product company that I was way over there heads in photography, plus they would not get any new gear, they did not want to hear any advice in there process. I just had to keep it to my self, at one time the two other photographer's that work there came into my studio and told me that I was making them look bad for upping the game. Another place I worked two of the photographers did not even know what a F stop was. The supervisor was also clueless at that company. So when you get guys that click the shutter and have now background in photography the client thinks that how it is and why would I pay high wage. This is what has become the detail quick click way now. It all looks so ezy!
Good insight!
The thought of someone paying 19 bucks is ridiculous. There is a different caliber in every photographer. When you see their images the price should reflect their quality. The low price also reflects on the targeted client.
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I was thinking about this and wondering if the images would belong to the photographer. I'll bet the images would belong to the company arranging this photo shoot. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. I know when I worked for a company (not photography) any idea or invention or whatever that I came up with in connection with being employed by that company became the intellectual property of that company. Yes, I had to sign an agreement saying the company would own the rights to any invention etc. So, I'm guessing these images will not belong to the photographer? If that's the case why are they willing to do this except for maybe a small paycheck? How are they going to learn to interact with a client if they aspire to be a professional photographer? How are they going to learn to market themselves? How are they going to learn to handle the accounting work? If the paycheck is all they want then they should just get a job at the nearest Walmart Portrait Studio. I'm just starting out but I'm definitely not a 20 something. If I want to start my own business then I'm not going to learn much just going to a place, shoot pictures, go home and collect a paycheck. Sure the risks are low doing that kind of thing but what does one learn?
Good assessment. I suspect the company keeps the rights - that’s how they hope to make money long term I’m thinking.
This just makes me cringe. The sad thing is, people starting out will take it. The images will be crap, and nobody will grow. It should be rejected by anyone with an ounce of self respect!
Cheers Daniel
I’m interested to see where it goes for sure
The trend these days is that most people (consumers) are just fine with monkeys, they seam almost allergic to "quality ", clients are well aware of that, so why not pay peanuts, anything works they think.. ( great video by the way Daniel)
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To work for $19 is too low a price with all of the time and money spent on a photo project especially the time it takes to edit the photos. For a few hours at a corporate event shoot, they should expect to pay about $400.
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I say no risk, no reward.
Indeed
Unfortunately that's the real face of the industry. Industry wants to do the job by paying the minimum wage no matter what trade. And here is the future: companies like the one that you mentioned will hire 1 high end photographer to control everything and then 10ths of newbies for minimum wage to do the job. Good luck to all off us in this new modern economy thing lol
Hopefully just part of the "industry"
Why is the main camera picture soft? I thought I was watching in lower res but checked and it was 1080. The side camera is way better.
seems like my Sony is acting up, gotta figure out why, having focus and other issues suddenly after a year of working great. - the video seems very compressed looking to me
Daniel Norton Photographer I agree. I almost thought you were going for an old style video recording then after seeing the side camera, I realized it wasn’t the case.
I guess when your camera is a computer, it's bound to have glitches, I rest it to factory and we shall see what happens
JC Pennys portraits...$9.99 for a 8x10
True, though I believe they really made their money on volume, which seems hard to do when the photographer has to go to the client to work.
So it's basically custom stock photography.
In a sense - but I don’t think the photographer keeps the rights.
When you allow yourself to work for almost nothing the customer will take upon himself to be your art director despite the fact to he knows nothing about art or photography. The result is the you will slowly and steadily build yourself a solid reputation for mediocrity.
Good point
The only thing worse than a $20 "wont cover the cost of fuel" job is when they offer to pay you with "exposure" ? hah
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My photo's are even worth less ..
I guess their value is the joy you have creating them
wow this guy delivers all the meat and potatoes that froknows and petemckinon pretend to offer with all their flashy gimmicky blah blah blah
Thank you
The weird floating video focusing is gone.. yay..
Ha ha - it shall return!! - just kidding
At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. I doubt very much that the photos by someone that's just working for an hourly wage, is going to be as creative as someone whose reputation is on the line.
Creative? That you might get,. Able to actually pull off the ideas in high quality..
I did hourly working in a Sears portrait studio. The pay wasn't great but I put the same effort in as if it was my own place. Obviously I wasn't shooting anything super creative though(kids/family photos/some headshots). The biggest issue was the lack of resources. There were only a few generic backgrounds.