@@ExAnimoPortugal Yes, I think that sometimes it's good to get us hearing a piece fresh, even if it's not the "ultimate" interpretation. In reality, the historical evidence points to much faster tempi than we usually play nowadays.
This historical tempo is creates the feeling of longing in hopes of a better future. I think it was rather dynamic in terms of letting the notes breathe within each interval. Quite the refreshing take on such a classic piece and it’s variations. Bravo, you never disappoint.
Gould's tempo experiments and the rationales behind them are well documented. They have no relation to the idea of historically correct tempi or metronome usage. Often, he wanted to connect movements through applying tempi that related mathematically. E.g. his 1982 Goldberg Variations recording, or his attempt in Brahms' first concerto. In the case of K331, he envisioned a variation-by-variation accelerando based upon what he saw as a series of ever faster note values in the variations. To make the "fastest" variation playable, he had to work his way back to the theme to establish a tempo for it that would be slower than any of the subsequent variations. Hence the slow opening andante. Nothing to do with traditional ways of setting a tempo.
I agree. Gould often would play differently just on the basis of being different. His Moscow concert of 1957 in which he played 3 selections of the Art of Fugue, two out of numerical order, and one at a fast clip, which is one of my favorite performances. When Gould hit a home run, he hit it out of the ball park. (The converse is true, too). He later played some of the Art of Fugue on the pipe organ which was totally different from his interpretation for the piano. He was definitely of the school of the artist as an interpreter. Sometimes the poet, sometimes lost in the translation.
I'd say traditional ways to set a tempo are exactly like that: go for the fastest notes and how to make articulation sound clear and adjust tempo all the way up to slower notes...
My Sir, I hope one day you'll consider the option of recording this very same sonata, at this very same tempo, on a modern piano. I'll meanwhile stay nevertheless grateful for this clavichord recording.
Everything makes more sense, when listening to the piece as a whole. The Turkish March doesn't seem slower at that point, but more exciting with the rest of the sonata in place. Excellent performance!
I always thought the 3rd variation sounded a lot like Bach and now it's noticeable even more at this tempo and in a fortepiano which sounds like a harpsichord
More fun for discussion. The WBMP for the Allegro (Mvt I) and the March (Mvt III) are common 18th century allegros according to Dr. Crotch and Dr. Young. Dr. Crotch's pendulum inches correlate to an average of 5 notes per second, never 10 - not even or ever close to 10. Young gives a huge range for allegros (30 - 60 measures per minute) and per his words in his essay (rarely slower or faster). Double the recording if you wish, and imagine the strings, keys, etc. being bashed around at those tempi. That isn't even common sense. Have fun with these facts. :D
I do not think this speed the authentic one personally but this approach gives the music notes a space to express itself fully especially for clavichord. The fast play will contaminate the delicacy. These performances are really enjoyable and mesmerizing.
The comparison to Glenn Gould's chosen tempo is amazing! Who would have thought of him in this slow tempo?! In general, the form of variations is very difficult from this aspect. I assume that the hardest variation in term of speed - should determine (if there are no MM marks) and of-course one should take into consideration the whole Sonata. Thanks for this most interesting upload. Bravo!
Very good and intimate performance, as to be expected. However I miss the short appoggiatura used in the rondo that gave it a more “Turkish” feel. Why was this changed for this recording?
Mozart's appoggiatura was probably long, not short. His father's famous violin manual describes the correct way to play this ornamentation as in the "long" form. There is a video om this channel about this.
Now the ornamentation makes more sense since one could easily get bored at this tempo 😂 jk I love this sonata it's just that I'm used to hearing it more Allegretto kind of tempo this is very nice too especially in the 2nd and 6th variations since you can hear all the notes one after the other not rushed
Was there ever a song with this music? Just wondering... The music is "wonderschon" with an umlaut on the last o:) Tomorrow this tune will be in my mind the whole day...
You can't imagine what a pleasure it is to see new light shed on all these great musical works that I thought I'd known so well. Now that you mention Theodor Kullak in your description, I want to tell you something. When I first encountered the scans of his edition of Chopin on the Internet, I didn't like this edition at all, partly because his metronome suggestions seemed way too fast for my tastes, for example, 92 quarter notes for the famous "Raindrop Prelude" (op 28 no 15). I've always preferred the much slower versions of this piece by Jean-Yves Thibaudet and Valentina Igoshina. But, of course, at that time I had no idea about the WBMP, and I never would have guessed that 92 BPM in those days actually meant 46 BPM to us. It would be great to hear all of Chopin's preludes (and maybe some other works) played according to Kullak--but all I can think about now is: what on earth is this "something amazing" that you're about to show us???
See this where I'm really interested in how Czerny and Moscheles must have been thinking when metronomising this piece. For me, I can totally see why they picked the tempi for the first movement opening theme, but when they get to the adagio, Czerny has 126 and Moscheles is a 112, whilst I, possibly not like many others, think that those are both too fast. There are just enough 64th notes and melodic ornamentations that I could easily see this played at 96 or 100. Although 104/108 I could also see a very good argument for.
It's a nice performance but Andante and 6/8 is anything but this. It is so slow that it's impossible for the melody to flow or head anywhere. The Alla Turca is okay even at this speed but I just can't listen to the first section at this speed. It becomes background music to a massage.
I'd take that massage with that background music Stefan 😁. Seriously, see the score here, all the small notes lead to a slow andante. But i get your feeling it's much different from how we (and I) played it
Your tempo remarks are interesting insights considering the technical limitations of the ancient instruments, especially the clavichord and specially the less ellaborated clavichord specimens. It is very likely that considering the limited resources of all kinds during Rennaissance and Baroque, performers were more likely to play the pieces in a slower fashion. With the advent of newer instruments, and especially with the modern piano design, it became possible to play faster. Therefore, we should all recognize that we are dealing with different musical products. There are thousands of interesting ways to play Bach and any other composers and nobody will ever please all human beings. We just have to acknowledge that music is more than that. It is the same debate about using or not pedal to play Baroque pieces, or even non legato versus legato.
@@bradleyscarff898 You can't play faster than the instrument contemporary to the composer, even if pushed to the limits. Liszt could play faster on the Erard than a Pleyel, but Beethoven is a "Grandfather" (teacher of Liszt teacher), and the instruments of Czerny's acquaintance in Vienna were single escapement instruments, albeit with a shallower key fall depth. As fast as possible is a relative term. Comparison of Czerny MM markings and later editors MM (being half of Czerny) do not have comparable Italian tempo terms. Czerny's Allegro becomes Bischoff's Andante or Moderato 1/2 a century later.
Medicina & Música, Mozart, Clementi, and Beethoven all knew the harpsichord (an ancient instrument), and I can state that the harpsichord can play as fast or faster than the fastest Steinway (which aren't the fast with their half way to China keyfall dip and action weight). Mozart's C Major Sonata Facile (easy), is a snap on a harpsichord based on the historical prototypes, vs the plucking pianos of the early to middle 20th century. I haven't played an Viennese forte piano or a historical copy, as to the lightness of action. Igor Kipnis played equally as fast on the clavichord as harpsichord (and faster than I was able to muster, without a great deal of practice). Jean Rondeau (until his Goldberg Variations recording) of more recent vintage played excessively, extremely fast on the harpsichord as did Anthony Newman back in the day (or which I didn't regard the speed artistic). J S Bach's criticism of G. Silbermann's original fortepianos after Silbermann completed two instruments in the 1730's, JSB student Agricola relates, he showed them to Bach, who replied critically, saying that "the tone was weak in the treble and the keys were hard to play even though the tone was pleasant," which would be in comparison to harpsichord and clavichord. Subsequently, Silbermann's later work suggest that he had seen one of the new Florentine pianos in Dresden or a publication of the improvements of Cristofori's later action which in the J S Bach's audience with Frederick the Great, met with complete approval. Beethoven insisted his nephew Carl practice on one (and even after becoming death Beethoven insisted this instrument being tuned regularly), Mozart's wife described the clavichord as his favorite companion in his last year of his life, Forkel claims that the clavichord was J S Bach's favorite instrument (probably more apropos to C P E Bach), as no evidence of a clavichord in the intestate tax documents of J S Bach, however, J S Bach preferred students who first learned on a clavichord rather than a harpsichord. As to the clavichord..."solitary, melancholic, unspeakably delightful instrument… He who has an aversion to revelry, fury and tumult and whose heart delights in sweet sensations, will pass by the harpsichord and fortepiano, and choose the clavichord.” - Christian Friedrich Daniel Schubart, 1785
@Bradley Scarff Quite true as to the time period dates, but what about the old adage, "location, location, location,?" The double escapement instruments were in France. Does your book state how prevalent double escapement pianos were in Vienna during Czerny's time? Czerny wrote primarily for the Viennese pianists who played generally pianos made by Viennese piano builders. Vienna remained a leading piano making center in Europe during Czerny's lifetime Among a few hundred workshops, primarily concentrated in or adjacent the Austrian capital served the needs of the Emperor, the wealthy and the rising middle class. Anton Walter, Johann Schantz, the Stein-Streicher family, Matthias Müller, Conrad Graf, Joseph Brodmann (later Ignaz Bosendoerfer took over the firm that would bare his name and gain fame through Liszt), Michael Schweighofer and many others were active. Their instruments underwent successive transformations, however these instruments maintained the constructional and sound characteristics that made them different from pianos made elsewhere (English Action). In 1833, Johann Baptist Streicher patented the compensating frame tubes, and in 1839 Friedrich Foxa - the metal frame. After 1810 pedals replaced knee levers. The Viennese action essentially remained unchanged. Does your book go into detail as to instruments imported into the Austrian capital during Czerny's time to mid-century. (Custom charges, news paper advertisements, reviews, etc.) How many Erards were imported into Vienna after 1821? Erards shop records of imports into Vienna? How many were present in the Capital when the School of Velocity's first of four books was published in Wien in 1833 by Diabelli? The Viennese action itself underwent only small transformations, and as the size and weight rose gradually, the actions became slower, not faster, in time which resulted in the limitation of its efficiency in fast repetitions. In action of Stein-Streicher and those they influence, the Viennese action with the metal hammer fork (Kapsel) and the back-check, adopted from A. Walter, were introduced, consequently further unified the Viennese action At the same time, down-striking actions (first patented by J. B. Streicher in 1823) and as well as single English actions with a single escapement appeared, a hybrid of the Viennese and English actions (also patented by J. B. Streicher in 1824 and 1831). The latter gained great popularity in the Viennese center. Of the least complicated/expensive, Stein’s action was used the most often, can continued in production till the end of the 19th century; some firms even till World War I. Thanks to their sound (and technical distinctiveness (light and shallow touch), Viennese pianos enjoyed popularity until the middle of the century. After 1850, the Viennese action became a regional anachronism only. Czerny died shortly after this 1857 To my recollection composers and pianists not only in Vienna but many beyond continued to use the Viennese action into the middle of the 19th century. Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Kalkbrenner, Liszt (had greater exposure to other pianos, late in life gifted a Steinway), and Brahms all played or owned instruments of the Viennese action. And this begs the question, can even these double escapement actions of Erard's time period play all of the School of Velocity and the Etudes in Single Beat? (Rhetorical question).
@@thomashughes4859 LOL, do you think I was too historical or was I too logical? I don't want to scare people away. Musicology from checking water marks on paper, handwriting analysis, to checking records, etc. is similar to detective work. Wim is a tempo detective, and when the clues, facts, and information doesn't add up, then it's not a mystery any more, you come to a conclusion, rather than obediently listen to and unquestionably accept dogma aka "sacred cows" from the ivory towers. There is proof for single beat, just as there is proof for whole, how when each occurred the transitions, is a detective story of investigation, something that isn't cut and dried as single being "once and for all" and forever. Now for something off topic, I found this from Santa Barbara, it goes with Temperature, vs Latitude with Jacaranda Trees blooms. sbbeautiful.org/jacaranda. The article references April blooms. I only remember Blooming around June (later than my rare visits to Van Nuys which were already blooming), but I spent most of my time indoors for 28 years at work, however the one street over from my home had "street trees" which when they bloomed my older sister 13 houses down from mine suffered from allergy to the flowers (pollen or fragrance).
Hello wim! Greetings from India. Love your videos. But not able to enjoy this one, and many others of your interpretation in double beat. I personally feel tempo denotes the character of a piece.. even if I am hearing this for the ‘ first ‘ time , I dislike it.. ain’t it painfully slow to get the whole melodical structure to the front? And too many rubatos? Woah.. that’s something new to me
6/8 needn't always be equated to triplets in 2/4. Count the eighth-notes: ONE-two-three, Four-five-six | ONE-two-three, Four-five-six || and you have Andante. Some Andantes are slower than some Adagios. The Italian terms aren't simply tempo, but also character: in my experience, Andantes tend to be sweet, almost sentimental, and Adagios serious.
always look to the score, the many fast notes subdividing the initial pulse. If you want to be able to 'walk' on this tempo, just try it, it's no problem (also try it twice the speed!)
Hi , Wim ! Have you ever studied at Hogwarts ? Because here is pure magic ! Can it be achieved only by tempo change ? Definitely no ! Thank You ! I've found your channel not long ago , and I'm now re- opening late 18th and19th century music which was not my favorite before it. I've preferred baroque , but now I can see (and hear) a new world .
Why, if your intent is to provide the most historically acurate performance, do you edit your recording by adding reverb and a bit of compression, to an otherwise limited instrument uncappable of sustaining the notes for as long as your choice of tempi requires?
euh... excuse you? Never heard a first class clavichord before? Well, enjoy this one for... free. No need to act like an arrogant internet-idiot Nerea. Love you too.
The music is well composed so it sounds good at different speeds, and you are a truly fantastic clavichordist--but this is p a i n f u l l y slow. I refuse to believe that a Mozart andante (Italian for "moving along") would have been played at such paint-drying pace. If the the melody were sung or played with a wind instrument, the performer would often end up out of breath if he respected the slurs; and if you listen to his operas, most melodies remain fairly close to natural speech without sounding hurried or dragging (which is why they are so effective). Yours is an intriguing theory but I think it ends up doing violence to the character of several of the pieces you apply it to. In good music, tempi pretty much suggest themselves. Still, a challenging idea that stimulates a conversation on an important topic, so yours is good work no matter the occasionally-questionable result.
Than play it double as fast, there is no in between in an experiment in tempo reconstruction. But my guess is you'll find it too fast than. So you'll find you in disagreement with Czerny, not with me.!
@@AuthenticSound Hi, Wim, thanks for the note--what I do disagree with is the idea that Czerny's metronome indications should be THE barometer of a piece's speed rather than the music itself. If a standard 4/4 Mozart "allegro" is played much slower than 116-120 BPM to the quarter-note, it loses fire and momentum and even the articulation nuances in the notes of longer duration gets lost (also due to the relatively quick decay of the clavichord and fortepiano). So it can't just be a matter of being used to hearing it a certain way. It's a bit the same way in which your speech enunciation would be lost if you spoke twice as slow: every "mood" and "circumstance" in speech has its own natural speed in which it sounds effective. There must be something small but important we're missing here, because the musical result of some (by no means all) of these pieces is simply not satisfactory. Another example is Beethoven's 5th: it just doesn't sound right--it sounds OK because it's fantastic music at any speed, but it loses a lot of its sense of direction by being so slow. My advice is keep searching--as I said there must be a small element missing that explains the discrepancy between MM indications and what would feel to most educated musicians as a normal tempo for a Classical-era piece.
@@Renshen1957 Great! - ours have long whithered away. BINGO! The Jacaranda must read the latitude. When ours are in full bloom, it's about April 1 - although the first buds pop on 21 Mar - and our sun's altitude was 72.2 deg. Right now in Calif. lat = about 34 N, you're sun's altitude is 74.3, which is close enough (+,- 1-ish degrees) to make it "official". Of course, it could be temperature as well; however, we have pretty huge swings in March, but the flowers always appear. Very cool!
We come here in part to escape politics. So, if you want to share those kinds of views, I’d suggest you take them to a political page where people are interested.
Let’s say we just saw a live symphony and they’re serving cocktails in the lobby, would it be appropriate to go up to strangers and start making political statements?
Don't forget to participate on our first Challenge: th-cam.com/video/GDZTNU_KQOI/w-d-xo.html
i lost a lot of the mobility of my fingers after i broke my left arm when i was 15 years old. Now i'm 42 and i'll be able to play that sonata again.
great to read !
If I remember correctly, Gould said in an interview that he recorded this piece at the slow tempo in order to get the listener to hear it freshly.
I wonder if he was on to something
@@ExAnimoPortugal Yes, I think that sometimes it's good to get us hearing a piece fresh, even if it's not the "ultimate" interpretation. In reality, the historical evidence points to much faster tempi than we usually play nowadays.
This historical tempo is creates the feeling of longing in hopes of a better future. I think it was rather dynamic in terms of letting the notes breathe within each interval. Quite the refreshing take on such a classic piece and it’s variations. Bravo, you never disappoint.
30:12 That damper made the string sound like the tone was played in reverse electronically, creating a rise in tension.
Gorgeous!
This is one of my all-time favorite sonatas.
a very fine and delicately interpretation, thank you
Gould's tempo experiments and the rationales behind them are well documented. They have no relation to the idea of historically correct tempi or metronome usage. Often, he wanted to connect movements through applying tempi that related mathematically. E.g. his 1982 Goldberg Variations recording, or his attempt in Brahms' first concerto. In the case of K331, he envisioned a variation-by-variation accelerando based upon what he saw as a series of ever faster note values in the variations. To make the "fastest" variation playable, he had to work his way back to the theme to establish a tempo for it that would be slower than any of the subsequent variations. Hence the slow opening andante. Nothing to do with traditional ways of setting a tempo.
I agree. Gould often would play differently just on the basis of being different. His Moscow concert of 1957 in which he played 3 selections of the Art of Fugue, two out of numerical order, and one at a fast clip, which is one of my favorite performances. When Gould hit a home run, he hit it out of the ball park. (The converse is true, too). He later played some of the Art of Fugue on the pipe organ which was totally different from his interpretation for the piano. He was definitely of the school of the artist as an interpreter. Sometimes the poet, sometimes lost in the translation.
I'd say traditional ways to set a tempo are exactly like that: go for the fastest notes and how to make articulation sound clear and adjust tempo all the way up to slower notes...
Yadda yadda, did u not read the description?
The Best version that i heard
My Sir, I hope one day you'll consider the option of recording this very same sonata, at this very same tempo, on a modern piano. I'll meanwhile stay nevertheless grateful for this clavichord recording.
Everything makes more sense, when listening to the piece as a whole. The Turkish March doesn't seem slower at that point, but more exciting with the rest of the sonata in place. Excellent performance!
“If you would dance, my pretty Count, I'll play the tune on my little guitar..”
― Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Im Turkish and I like it :)
I always thought the 3rd variation sounded a lot like Bach and now it's noticeable even more at this tempo and in a fortepiano which sounds like a harpsichord
A really convincing version! The first movement is simply enchanting, I think. Far better than the faster one you made in 2014!
More fun for discussion. The WBMP for the Allegro (Mvt I) and the March (Mvt III) are common 18th century allegros according to Dr. Crotch and Dr. Young. Dr. Crotch's pendulum inches correlate to an average of 5 notes per second, never 10 - not even or ever close to 10. Young gives a huge range for allegros (30 - 60 measures per minute) and per his words in his essay (rarely slower or faster). Double the recording if you wish, and imagine the strings, keys, etc. being bashed around at those tempi. That isn't even common sense.
Have fun with these facts. :D
I do not think this speed the authentic one personally but this approach gives the music notes a space to express itself fully especially for clavichord. The fast play will contaminate the delicacy. These performances are really enjoyable and mesmerizing.
The comparison to Glenn Gould's chosen tempo is amazing! Who would have thought of him in this slow tempo?! In general, the form of variations is very difficult from this aspect. I assume that the hardest variation in term of speed - should determine (if there are no MM marks) and of-course one should take into consideration the whole Sonata. Thanks for this most interesting upload. Bravo!
This must be the correct historical tempo! Only the alla turca i play a little slower, around 126
Very good and intimate performance, as to be expected. However I miss the short appoggiatura used in the rondo that gave it a more “Turkish” feel. Why was this changed for this recording?
Mozart's appoggiatura was probably long, not short. His father's famous violin manual describes the correct way to play this ornamentation as in the "long" form. There is a video om this channel about this.
Now the ornamentation makes more sense since one could easily get bored at this tempo 😂 jk I love this sonata it's just that I'm used to hearing it more Allegretto kind of tempo this is very nice too especially in the 2nd and 6th variations since you can hear all the notes one after the other not rushed
bravo!
Was there ever a song with this music? Just wondering... The music is "wonderschon" with an umlaut on the last o:) Tomorrow this tune will be in my mind the whole day...
I can imagine that this is the first sonata written for fortepiano. In the variations i can hear Mozart using the knee pedal.
You have been working hard on Mozart and Beethoven lately, what about Bach, are you working on something from him ?
will come back!!
You can't imagine what a pleasure it is to see new light shed on all these great musical works that I thought I'd known so well. Now that you mention Theodor Kullak in your description, I want to tell you something. When I first encountered the scans of his edition of Chopin on the Internet, I didn't like this edition at all, partly because his metronome suggestions seemed way too fast for my tastes, for example, 92 quarter notes for the famous "Raindrop Prelude" (op 28 no 15). I've always preferred the much slower versions of this piece by Jean-Yves Thibaudet and Valentina Igoshina. But, of course, at that time I had no idea about the WBMP, and I never would have guessed that 92 BPM in those days actually meant 46 BPM to us. It would be great to hear all of Chopin's preludes (and maybe some other works) played according to Kullak--but all I can think about now is: what on earth is this "something amazing" that you're about to show us???
thank you! Kullak's tempi are excellent and to me doubtlessly to be read in whole beat
See this where I'm really interested in how Czerny and Moscheles must have been thinking when metronomising this piece. For me, I can totally see why they picked the tempi for the first movement opening theme, but when they get to the adagio, Czerny has 126 and Moscheles is a 112, whilst I, possibly not like many others, think that those are both too fast.
There are just enough 64th notes and melodic ornamentations that I could easily see this played at 96 or 100. Although 104/108 I could also see a very good argument for.
Beautiful ❤️
What, this version of the last movement (alla turca) doesn't have the apoggiatura improvement? I cannot find the other video right now.
Now the Rondo Alla Turca actually sounds oriental
It's a nice performance but Andante and 6/8 is anything but this. It is so slow that it's impossible for the melody to flow or head anywhere. The Alla Turca is okay even at this speed but I just can't listen to the first section at this speed. It becomes background music to a massage.
You must be used to andantes played at allegretto.
I'd take that massage with that background music Stefan 😁. Seriously, see the score here, all the small notes lead to a slow andante. But i get your feeling it's much different from how we (and I) played it
With or without extras? Ha, ha!
Your tempo remarks are interesting insights considering the technical limitations of the ancient instruments, especially the clavichord and specially the less ellaborated clavichord specimens. It is very likely that considering the limited resources of all kinds during Rennaissance and Baroque, performers were more likely to play the pieces in a slower fashion. With the advent of newer instruments, and especially with the modern piano design, it became possible to play faster. Therefore, we should all recognize that we are dealing with different musical products. There are thousands of interesting ways to play Bach and any other composers and nobody will ever please all human beings. We just have to acknowledge that music is more than that. It is the same debate about using or not pedal to play Baroque pieces, or even non legato versus legato.
@@bradleyscarff898 You can't play faster than the instrument contemporary to the composer, even if pushed to the limits. Liszt could play faster on the Erard than a Pleyel, but Beethoven is a "Grandfather" (teacher of Liszt teacher), and the instruments of Czerny's acquaintance in Vienna were single escapement instruments, albeit with a shallower key fall depth. As fast as possible is a relative term. Comparison of Czerny MM markings and later editors MM (being half of Czerny) do not have comparable Italian tempo terms. Czerny's Allegro becomes Bischoff's Andante or Moderato 1/2 a century later.
Medicina & Música, Mozart, Clementi, and Beethoven all knew the harpsichord (an ancient instrument), and I can state that the harpsichord can play as fast or faster than the fastest Steinway (which aren't the fast with their half way to China keyfall dip and action weight). Mozart's C Major Sonata Facile (easy), is a snap on a harpsichord based on the historical prototypes, vs the plucking pianos of the early to middle 20th century. I haven't played an Viennese forte piano or a historical copy, as to the lightness of action.
Igor Kipnis played equally as fast on the clavichord as harpsichord (and faster than I was able to muster, without a great deal of practice). Jean Rondeau (until his Goldberg Variations recording) of more recent vintage played excessively, extremely fast on the harpsichord as did Anthony Newman back in the day (or which I didn't regard the speed artistic).
J S Bach's criticism of G. Silbermann's original fortepianos after Silbermann completed two instruments in the 1730's, JSB student Agricola relates, he showed them to Bach, who replied critically, saying that "the tone was weak in the treble and the keys were hard to play even though the tone was pleasant," which would be in comparison to harpsichord and clavichord. Subsequently, Silbermann's later work suggest that he had seen one of the new Florentine pianos in Dresden or a publication of the improvements of Cristofori's later action which in the J S Bach's audience with Frederick the Great, met with complete approval. Beethoven insisted his nephew Carl practice on one (and even after becoming death Beethoven insisted this instrument being tuned regularly), Mozart's wife described the clavichord as his favorite companion in his last year of his life, Forkel claims that the clavichord was J S Bach's favorite instrument (probably more apropos to C P E Bach), as no evidence of a clavichord in the intestate tax documents of J S Bach, however, J S Bach preferred students who first learned on a clavichord rather than a harpsichord. As to the clavichord..."solitary, melancholic, unspeakably delightful instrument… He who has an aversion to revelry, fury and tumult and whose heart delights in sweet sensations, will pass by the harpsichord and fortepiano, and choose the clavichord.”
- Christian Friedrich Daniel Schubart, 1785
@Bradley Scarff Quite true as to the time period dates, but what about the old adage, "location, location, location,?" The double escapement instruments were in France.
Does your book state how prevalent double escapement pianos were in Vienna during Czerny's time? Czerny wrote primarily for the Viennese pianists who played generally pianos made by Viennese piano builders. Vienna remained a leading piano making center in Europe during Czerny's lifetime Among a few hundred workshops, primarily concentrated in or adjacent the Austrian capital served the needs of the Emperor, the wealthy and the rising middle class.
Anton Walter, Johann Schantz, the Stein-Streicher family, Matthias Müller, Conrad Graf, Joseph Brodmann (later Ignaz Bosendoerfer took over the firm that would bare his name and gain fame through Liszt), Michael Schweighofer and many others were active. Their instruments underwent successive transformations, however these instruments maintained the constructional and sound characteristics that made them different from pianos made elsewhere (English Action). In 1833, Johann Baptist Streicher patented the compensating frame tubes, and in 1839 Friedrich Foxa - the metal frame. After 1810 pedals replaced knee levers. The Viennese action essentially remained unchanged.
Does your book go into detail as to instruments imported into the Austrian capital during Czerny's time to mid-century. (Custom charges, news paper advertisements, reviews, etc.)
How many Erards were imported into Vienna after 1821? Erards shop records of imports into Vienna? How many were present in the Capital when the School of Velocity's first of four books was published in Wien in 1833 by Diabelli?
The Viennese action itself underwent only small transformations, and as the size and weight rose gradually, the actions became slower, not faster, in time which resulted in the limitation of its efficiency in fast repetitions.
In action of Stein-Streicher and those they influence, the Viennese action with the metal hammer fork (Kapsel) and the back-check, adopted from A. Walter, were introduced, consequently further unified the Viennese action
At the same time, down-striking actions (first patented by J. B. Streicher in 1823) and as well as single English actions with a single escapement appeared, a hybrid of the Viennese and English actions (also patented by J. B. Streicher in 1824 and 1831). The latter gained great popularity in the Viennese center.
Of the least complicated/expensive, Stein’s action was used the most often, can continued in production till the end of the 19th century; some firms even till World War I. Thanks to their sound (and technical distinctiveness (light and shallow touch), Viennese pianos enjoyed popularity until the middle of the century.
After 1850, the Viennese action became a regional anachronism only. Czerny died shortly after this 1857
To my recollection composers and pianists not only in Vienna but many beyond continued to use the Viennese action into the middle of the 19th century. Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Kalkbrenner, Liszt (had greater exposure to other pianos, late in life gifted a Steinway), and Brahms all played or owned instruments of the Viennese action.
And this begs the question, can even these double escapement actions of Erard's time period play all of the School of Velocity and the Etudes in Single Beat? (Rhetorical question).
@@Renshen1957 He "cut-n-run". Logic and history are too much for these blokes.
@@thomashughes4859 LOL, do you think I was too historical or was I too logical? I don't want to scare people away. Musicology from checking water marks on paper, handwriting analysis, to checking records, etc. is similar to detective work.
Wim is a tempo detective, and when the clues, facts, and information doesn't add up, then it's not a mystery any more, you come to a conclusion, rather than obediently listen to and unquestionably accept dogma aka "sacred cows" from the ivory towers. There is proof for single beat, just as there is proof for whole, how when each occurred the transitions, is a detective story of investigation, something that isn't cut and dried as single being "once and for all" and forever. Now for something off topic,
I found this from Santa Barbara, it goes with Temperature, vs Latitude with Jacaranda Trees blooms. sbbeautiful.org/jacaranda. The article references April blooms. I only remember Blooming around June (later than my rare visits to Van Nuys which were already blooming), but I spent most of my time indoors for 28 years at work, however the one street over from my home had "street trees" which when they bloomed my older sister 13 houses down from mine suffered from allergy to the flowers (pollen or fragrance).
Hello wim! Greetings from India. Love your videos. But not able to enjoy this one, and many others of your interpretation in double beat. I personally feel tempo denotes the character of a piece.. even if I am hearing this for the ‘ first ‘ time , I dislike it.. ain’t it painfully slow to get the whole melodical structure to the front? And too many rubatos? Woah.. that’s something new to me
just give it time!
Strange to me how at least the statement of the primary theme could be called "andante" at this tempo.
The modern tendency is to play andantes at allegretto.
126 in single beat is not andante either. It is a quick march. It is almost jogging
6/8 needn't always be equated to triplets in 2/4. Count the eighth-notes: ONE-two-three, Four-five-six | ONE-two-three, Four-five-six || and you have Andante. Some Andantes are slower than some Adagios. The Italian terms aren't simply tempo, but also character: in my experience, Andantes tend to be sweet, almost sentimental, and Adagios serious.
@@petertyrrell3391 Saint Saenz said the same thing in the 1860's in his Mozart Sonata edition. He has an excellent preface that discusses this.
always look to the score, the many fast notes subdividing the initial pulse. If you want to be able to 'walk' on this tempo, just try it, it's no problem (also try it twice the speed!)
Best. Version. Ever.
Merci beaucoup!
I find the first movement far too slow.
Hi , Wim ! Have you ever studied at Hogwarts ? Because here is pure magic ! Can it be achieved only by tempo change ? Definitely no ! Thank You ! I've found your channel not long ago , and I'm now re- opening late 18th and19th century music which was not my favorite before it. I've preferred baroque , but now I can see (and hear) a new world .
great to read!
Great performance, Wim. You're winning! Congratulations!!!
Why, if your intent is to provide the most historically acurate performance, do you edit your recording by adding reverb and a bit of compression, to an otherwise limited instrument uncappable of sustaining the notes for as long as your choice of tempi requires?
euh... excuse you? Never heard a first class clavichord before? Well, enjoy this one for... free. No need to act like an arrogant internet-idiot Nerea. Love you too.
morton feldman
Who cares about metronome - speed it up a little that first movement is dead embellish all you want 🥱🥱 .. you’re a great musician though
I do since it is the composer's wish and... thank you :-)
The music is well composed so it sounds good at different speeds, and you are a truly fantastic clavichordist--but this is p a i n f u l l y slow. I refuse to believe that a Mozart andante (Italian for "moving along") would have been played at such paint-drying pace. If the the melody were sung or played with a wind instrument, the performer would often end up out of breath if he respected the slurs; and if you listen to his operas, most melodies remain fairly close to natural speech without sounding hurried or dragging (which is why they are so effective).
Yours is an intriguing theory but I think it ends up doing violence to the character of several of the pieces you apply it to. In good music, tempi pretty much suggest themselves. Still, a challenging idea that stimulates a conversation on an important topic, so yours is good work no matter the occasionally-questionable result.
Than play it double as fast, there is no in between in an experiment in tempo reconstruction. But my guess is you'll find it too fast than. So you'll find you in disagreement with Czerny, not with me.!
@@AuthenticSound Hi, Wim, thanks for the note--what I do disagree with is the idea that Czerny's metronome indications should be THE barometer of a piece's speed rather than the music itself. If a standard 4/4 Mozart "allegro" is played much slower than 116-120 BPM to the quarter-note, it loses fire and momentum and even the articulation nuances in the notes of longer duration gets lost (also due to the relatively quick decay of the clavichord and fortepiano). So it can't just be a matter of being used to hearing it a certain way.
It's a bit the same way in which your speech enunciation would be lost if you spoke twice as slow: every "mood" and "circumstance" in speech has its own natural speed in which it sounds effective. There must be something small but important we're missing here, because the musical result of some (by no means all) of these pieces is simply not satisfactory. Another example is Beethoven's 5th: it just doesn't sound right--it sounds OK because it's fantastic music at any speed, but it loses a lot of its sense of direction by being so slow. My advice is keep searching--as I said there must be a small element missing that explains the discrepancy between MM indications and what would feel to most educated musicians as a normal tempo for a Classical-era piece.
You can play whatever way you want. But no need to claim it were original..
I don't claim that anywhere. It's an attempt for historical tempo reconstruction and that, as an experiment, is exactly what it is, right?
The performance is just boring and certainly inauthentic, but I endorse your freedom to experiment and follow new ideas.
First!
You are also first with the Jacaranda's blooming in Mexico, the local trees are in full bloom...
@@Renshen1957 Great! - ours have long whithered away.
BINGO! The Jacaranda must read the latitude. When ours are in full bloom, it's about April 1 - although the first buds pop on 21 Mar - and our sun's altitude was 72.2 deg. Right now in Calif. lat = about 34 N, you're sun's altitude is 74.3, which is close enough (+,- 1-ish degrees) to make it "official". Of course, it could be temperature as well; however, we have pretty huge swings in March, but the flowers always appear.
Very cool!
No matter what the discussions about Tempi are, this is far better than listening to the nutcase currently living in The White House. 👍
Not in music comments please.
HAHA!!! Beethoven mixed politics with music, too. You have a precedent not liking a president.
We come here in part to escape politics. So, if you want to share those kinds of views, I’d suggest you take them to a political page where people are interested.
Let’s say we just saw a live symphony and they’re serving cocktails in the lobby, would it be appropriate to go up to strangers and start making political statements?
(Puts moderator hat on) As much as I agree with what's said here, I think it's best that we end the conversation here. (Takes moderator hat off).
Oh my God! The death of Mozart. Zzzzzzzzzz.