Was Peter a Rock or Shifting Sand? Jesus' Closest Disciple in History and Legend.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มี.ค. 2024
- Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
Jesus' closest disciple was Simon, whom he nicknamed "Peter" -- that is "The Rock." But in the Gospels and the writings of Paul, Peter is fickle, clumsy, and unreliable, less like a rock than shifting sand. After the New Testament we have numerous writings both about and allegedly by him. In looking over all these records, what can we say about the one on whom Jesus allegedly "built his church"? Is it possible to separate out the history from the legend? The fact from the fiction? And why didn't the Gospel writers do a bit more to improve his reputation?
-Why is Peter an important figure in the New Testament and early Christianity?
-What are the main sources of information for Peter?
-There are various accounts of Peter that are clearly legendary - he raises people (and fish!) from the dead, for example. Is a legendary act enough to automatically discredit everything else in a source?
-Obviously, the absence of resurrection and miraculous healing doesn’t necessarily make a source trustworthy. How do historians distinguish between non-legendary but implausible reports, and something that is more likely to be historical fact?
-Regular listeners won’t be surprised to hear that there are discrepancies between the different books of the New Testament when it comes to the life of Peter. Could you tell us about the different stories about how he became a disciple, and when he first realized Jesus was the messiah?
-What things do our sources agree on, and can historians say anything about this man with any degree of confidence?
-Are there any reasons for thinking that he and Paul did not get along?
-Are there any reports of Jewish sects breaking off and following either Peter or Paul, or were the two views unified by later christians?
-Given how important Peter came to be in the foundation of Christianity, is it surprising that he continued to be depicted as a rash, impetuous peasant?
-Is it possible to see Peter as the one who started Christianity?
Host: Bart question ?
Bart : yeah no yeah great question
Megan has an eloquent and rare ability to begin, segue, and end segments comfortably. She makes Bart the focus, which is appropriate, and adds interesting questions that she herself personally cares about without derailing the conversation. Most importantly, she seems prepared so she doesn't run on interminably during questioning and keeps things moving along logically. I have watched Bart do his magic for years. I was unsure about this pairing at first (girl, the hair!), but from the git you two have been the dynamically pleasant and enthralling duo. (I thought I was the only T.A. who graded harder than the professor. I couldn't see the gold in the piles of mounting dross.)
Comletely agree.
Agreed. She’s a highly skilled and ideal host.
Very eloquent, she impressed me too, in the exact same ways you said. The only difference between us, is her hair is badass. She's stylish as hell
@@TullipPetal I didn't know at first what the hair would mean, so it made me leery. But, I agree it's turned out her hair is quite "badass." Matches the equally badass glasses. Turns out rainbow hair can simply mean smart and competent.
@@quij7ote222 yeah she could have been a degenerate feminist
Love these shows. It's like a peek into a better world where humans could spend their time connecting and enriching their consciousness together. A cosy, wonderful corner of the internet and I hope you never stop!
Bart often makes me think of what my dad would be like if he hadn’t continued down the path of fundamentalist authoritarianism. Sad to know what my dad is missing in life while stuck in a rut fighting against “the world”, but encouraging to know that someone else is making the absolute best of what their religious background gave them.
You two are great together and I always enjoy your collaboration.
For all those people who keep saying “I wish Megan would share her own thoughts more,” now you know where to find her in all her sophisticated academic glory! Hours and hours of it ♥️ If you weren’t already watching Digital Hammurabi, you’re missing out.
Education in an entertaining and honest way. What could be better? This is my favorite hour each week!
Not only oral sex, but even woman-on-top was considered by conservative and religious members of many ancient cultures, including the Greek, to be "porneia." What a blessing to live in a time where partners can be respected--and enjoyed--as equals. Can be: although religion and conservatism still have their say.
Bart always chuckles and giggles about everything.
It’s a quirk of his character. I admit sometimes it’s a bit irritating by I prefer by far that to people who never crack a smile and take everything - even jokes - way too seriously.
@@pansepot1490 Oh i find it entertaining. No problem.
To me it just makes him more appealing and relatable
Well, to be fair, Megan does it too!
Megan the perfect choice! Y’all are a super team and enjoy Dr. Josh too!
It is no marvel that every single comment about Megan is written in barely intelligible English.
@@John.Flower.ProductionsThat is perfectly intelligible English. Just because it isn't written by Charles Dickens, we can all understand it.
One of the most interesting mysteries of the very early church to me is how they went from what we're told in the Gospel's at Jesus's death, to what we learn from Paul only a few years later. How do Peter and James wind up in charge of this new version of the movement? Who figured out the new theology on the meaning of the resurrection? Are the other disciples (and other Gospel names like Mary Magdelene?) still around and involved? Paul mentions the "other apostles" and "the 12" as groups, but I don't think he names anyone other than Cephas and James - certainly doesn't name all of them.
Could it be that Peter got the role he did and maybe even the name because he had the vision of Jesus and he was the one holding what was left of Jesus's movement together after his death.
I think Peter was at his most awkward (but well meaning) at the Transfiguration. Peter thought it would be a great idea to build three little huts for Moses, Elijah and Jesus to stay in. That is sweet and well meaning.
I'm gonna rob Peter to pay Bart.
"Rocky!" That acid-tongued Yeshua was probably being either sarcastic or openly insulting as in "Sketchy!"
My theory is he was the muscle. Big guy is basically Jesus's bodyguard.
You two are WONDERFUL, and it's great to hear how you both met and ultimately started this always very enjoyable and illuminating podcast!
What a title. Can't wait to dig in.
The "Rock" thing reminds me of Stonewall Jackson. "There stands Jackson like a stone wall" said a Confederate general. However that general died soon afterwards and no-one knows for sure whether he was praising Jackson's fortitude or criticising his reluctance to advance. Another case of the ambiguity of giving people a stone-based name.
There's a fourth possibility, that both Mark's and John's gospels are correct about how Jesus called Peter to join him.
The synoptic accounts show Jesus calling the four fishermen at the seaside upon which they instantly dropped their nets and followed. Is this realistic? It puzzled me, actually, why four people would suddenly do that on the spur of the moment.
According to John's gospel, Andrew was a disciple of John the Baptist who introduced Andrew to Jesus, following which Andrew introduced Peter to Jesus. It's more plausible that Jesus already knew the four of them and probably even talked about them following him as his disciples. When the time came, Jesus went to where they were working and asked them to follow him.
C'mon Bart, the hair and glasses is the real reason you got together with Megan!!! Since I've read all your trade books except the last (having been raised Southern Baptist I've had enough Armageddon for two lifetimes 🤣), I rarely hear anything I haven't already heard you say. But Megan's hair and glasses is what really keeps me coming back week after week! And the accent is nice too...🤣❤
BTW - I love Digital Hammurabi and Josh's writings. Thank you both!
I have read most of Bart’s books. I love both Bart and Megan’s intellectual chemistry . Fabulous 🎉
Perfect couple to listen and learning so much new stuff every time 😊
oh yeah, this co-operation is working very well.... infotainment at highest level... keep it up Bart & Megan
Megan's hair and glasses -- just icing on a very intelligent, appealing person. So glad this partnership came together!
I also like what Bart's done with his hair. Within the context of just 2 people they are both as equally alternative.
@@nathanaelsmith3553but perhaps not equally attractive ;)
I love listening these conversations, thank you Mr Ehrman,
I genuinely don’t think Bart could have found a better host for the podcast. Megan consistently asks questions that are insightful and important, and she’s good at clarifying points that may be unclear. She clearly does her homework before an episode and brings quite a bit of her own background to the topic, and I love when she’s able to contrast biblical scholarship with Assyriology.
Always a highlight of my week to watch the dynamic duo, do their thing. Thanks, Bart and Megan, et al - and YES! It's always great fun! And Ooooo - a cliffhanger!
Megan & Bart you guys rock! I always find the podcast so enjoyable with Megan’s excellent questioning and hosting!!
Always love the intros about their lives and then get straight into the discussion. Her hair and glasses always cue that this is a new topic!
That the best coloring yet, Megan! Magical!
If peter was a fisherman, he would most likely be illiterate. So Paul can write anything he wants because peter can’t reply.
This is always such a delightful podcast! Great stuff, as always.👏
Oh, I am so glad you are doing Peter! The story of extremely flawed designated successor has always intrigued me, and I am lately finding it quite empowering. Can't wait to learn more about the historicity and literary embellishments of his story.
So Jesus was calling Peter a rockhead. It wasn't a compliment.
❤
Stony Pete
Rocks another name for God, mentioned 100s of times Paul was Titus's Pen name
Titus my ONE TRUE Son in the faith, there's a clue in that statement
He was the original "The Rock"
I watch a lot of podcasts and I always enjoy seeing you two together the most! Great duo!
I love you both, and greatly enjoy you both together with these podcasts. I don't know what my life would be without them.... OK, maybe I do, but they're fantastic.
I agree....
Grading hard at 5:20. I had TAs like this and it was frustrating. If I had four TAs for a class, at least one would not follow my grading rubric and marked hard. I then had to read some, and bell curve and adjusts accordingly. I even had one large class of 350 where all my TAs graded a mid-term exam (essay style questions) at a 56% class average. So I adjusted all grade up accordingly. Another problem in some university is the dean will expect an average final grade of B (or 75%). That is hard to do for the more difficult classes. Another problem is some universities have an appeal process. So a student with a grade of 44 who should fail a course appeals the grade and all the coursework has to be re-assessed. There is pressure to bump 40-somethings automatically to a 50/100 so they will not appeal.
Whatever his origins in historical fact, Peter's role in the gospels is obviously to attract the identification of believers and serve as a role model for people who struggle with their faith. He doubts, just as "we" doubt; he demands concrete proof; he risks making a fool of himself; he denies Christ at crucial times. But he always redeems himself and returns to the faith, just as the church wants "us," its members, to do, even to the point of sacrificing himself for his faith. All of his struggles and foibles make him the most relatable character in the New Testament and a very effective rhetorical device.
This was very interesting. I really enjoyed it.
Paul and Peter didn't like each other. It really stands out when you read Galatians, which is the earliest-written work within the NT. Paul is quite adamant that he didn't get his gospel from any man and that he acquired it via a revelation from Jesus. Paul sarcastically refers to Peter and the others as "so-called pillars." And he even publicly argues with Peter saying, "But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned."
Paul also says the following, "And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)-those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me."
Acts was written by an anonymous author (the same author of Luke) many decades after both Paul and Peter had died. It outright contradicts what Paul wrote in Galatians. The author of Acts clearly had an agenda to pretend there were never tensions between Paul and Peter and to present the church as unified right from the beginning. But Paul's own writing in Galatians shows otherwise.
content amazing - but also Megan's glasses!
Hair, glasses and mugs plenty to Like, before you even get to the content here!
It is no marvel that your comment about Megan is written in barely intelligible English.
"Hey Rocky, pass me some of them taters, would ya?"
- Jesus at the Last Supper
Great podcast. Learned a lot. And everybody has cool glasses!
Love this podcast!!
Love these podcasts ❤
The attack of the circular glasses! Makes Bart look like Al Capone's Accountant. 😊
The two of you are great.
37:00 mentioning of Oral Sex & Anal Sex......while studying bible......I was utterly unprepared :-D
Uhhhh... go read Ezekiel 23:20-21...😁
You two are brilliant!
Thank you both for your great work! Very interesting! I work in a Catholic high school, and it is interesting to listen to the actual historical perspective as opposed to our oversimplified school curriculum on "Why we all need to love Jesus and obey every Catholic authority".❤️
Great show !!!
Thank you.
I’m about to retire after 37 years of teaching at a university. Grading is the only part of teaching that I will not miss. I get frustrated when I give them feedback and they don’t change a thing because it is hard work to give them the feedback.
The hair! Love it! And those glasses! I haven't seen a pair of her glasses that I don't love!
teaching how to improve is the best quality teaching
Awesome glases!
Thank you both. You teach quite a lot. God be with you always!!!nn
Love these chats...eating cookies while watching.
Bart doesn't question whether Peter was a fisherman, yet the source for that story is Mark's Gospel - Paul doesn't mention it. Bart provides a reason why Mark might invent the story of the instant conversion and it is not hard to think of reasons why Mark might invent the occupation of fishermen; it could be part of Mark's thematic denegation of Peter ("Guys, he's not learned like our guy Paul. You should ignore Peter"); it could be, following Denis Macdonald, part of Mark's desire to emulate Homer's Odyssey which requires the hero to be constantly sailing across the sea with less than perfect sailing companions ("Guys, I assure you that body of water in Galilee is a sea, not a mere lake"). Mathew ran with the fishermen story because it allowed Mathew to run the "Fishers of Men" gag, which he had just thought of.
We know Peter didn't bring fish back to life because there are no tuna fish in Sea of Galilee.
Great video as always keep up the good work Dr Ehrman and Megan!
You are fabulous. Listening to you is very pleasurable and informative. I think Jesus called Peter rocky, trying to convince him that he really was like a rock Jesus knew Peter's weaknesses, just wanted to counter then with psychology..😢😮
Megan's hair is Wow!!!!! Just love the colors!!!!!
Bart Eherman, could you please tell us the name of the article you referenced? I'd like to do some research. I may end up down a rabbit hole, but that's all part of the journey 😂
It just occurred to me that Bart chuckles nearly as much as PhD Giggles laughs on AiG News. We really need to get those two crazy kids together - it would be a laugh riot.
“two or three of these at a time”? so much time and so much information
Nice glasses Bart!
Maybe the gospel writers intentionally wanted to make Peter look weak.
Conjecture, supposition, speculation and circumspection is the essences of a historian like Bart. No one knows this nor will ever know!!!! An agnostic should learn to broaden his agnosticism when dealing with scripture.
There's only a single incident (in Galatians) where Paul was at odds with Peter. Even then, it comes across as a temporary lapse due to peer pressure. I think you're blowing it out of proportion.
Still the only podcast I always watch at 1.0x speed ♥️
Have people formed a drinking game about these podcasts including how many times Megan blinks?
(ETA: I asked before about how the two hooked up once when they took some questions and Megan answered that she moderated some debate. Her answer was somewhat different then.)
Really helps show the fallibility of human recollection, which is definitely something Bart himself harps on often in his criticisms of apologetic arguments on new testament reliability.
Drink every time Megan smiles with her teeth showing
megans hair color is beutiful ! my favourite color way ! and they are both such good talkers! since i first found out about bart on paulogias channel ive watched every debate he has on youtube and every episode of this show you do together, so helpful for when I debate people about the bible being accurate and other things in christianity
I guess latter-day Christians couldn't really smell what "the Rock" was cookin' ...
(ps) It is interesting to note in that Confucius, a "founder" of a "religion" that's influenced the other side of the world for almost as long as Christianity inn the European world, has a follower/disciple JUST LIKE Peter, named Tszelu, one of the Ten Disciples. He was a wild man, impetuous, uneducated, temper like fire, strong brawny guy who sought out Confucius one day and tried to humiliate him. But then turned into a devoted follower after that encounter. Confucius never really praised him as being the best of his followers, nor the smartest, but he did seem to love him the most.
Like that one student, every teacher has, who's not the smartest, not the most well-behaved, makes all sorts of trouble, but is such a loving student (not in a creepy way) that they remain long in a teacher's heart (not in a creepy way) even after they move on. Perhaps all teachers have one of those.
Damn that is a lot of work.
Megan, your glasses rock, as usual.
As B. Ehrman had the title of his book before writting it, could Mark made Peter (and maybe the other 3 disciples) a fisherman, in order to insert the literary phrase of “Fishermen of men”?
I appreciate the last question concerning Megan. Thank you. Here is another question I hope you can answer sometime: "What are your thoughts on faith versus science?" Science has disproved so many Biblical beliefs. For example, the Israeli calendar says we're in the year 5785 when God created heaven and earth. But science says the world is over 13 billion years old. There are so many unbelievable Biblical stories that seem disproved by science. Another example is where did all the water go after Noah's flood?
Maybe Peter was a marketing genius who saw a good product and realized the profit possibility.
That certainly seems to apply to Paul, though obviously in neither case was it purely a matter of "profit," since their lives were materially pretty bleak and ended badly. But they got to be "right" within the limited community of the church--big fish in a small pond--and that's a major motivation for certain kinds of personalities.
@@lawsonj39 I agree and also it's relative to how good of a donkey you have and how many fishes and barley loaves you have to perform with.
I just wonder how many of the stories in the Bible were modified to fit later realities. Did Peter really do the things that were attributed to him in the gospels, or did his character get credit for them because he was a church leader later, rather than to any one of the followers of Jesus who disappeared from history after Jesus’s death?
It’s the glasses Bart🐝🐝 You gotta work on it.
they will look upon him who is pieced in Isaiah what does Bart think
i do not want to be rude so apologies if i come across that way. i have submitted a question but. how long is it usually between when a question is asked to when it is answered? and is it gauche to submit a question more than once?
thanks for the great show megan and bart.
I love listening to you both, yes Megan and Bart you're great combination, fun and good rapport, I'm gaining knowledge from you but not agree with all and about Peters denials.
Evidence shows Peter had exceptionally strong faith to deny Jesus. Peter denied Jesus righteously and the disciples scattered righteously.
Mathew 26:31 Jesus tells disciples they will scatter as it is written, Zech 13:7
God tells sheep to scatter.
Peter doesn't listen.
Luke 22:31,32 Jesus tells Peter he will pray for his faith to not fail and return to the others.... (alive)
Peter cuts ear of high priests servant (in the presence of armed soldiers) did not fear.
Mathew 26:56 Jesus again mentions writtings of prophets, and the disciples listened and scattered (Zech 13:7)
Peter didn't listen to prophecy, later had to painfully disown his 'self' and deny Jesus so as to do as Jesus commanded to return to the others.
Peter saved his existence and gave his life to Jesus, Saving and rescuing.
'Whoever wants to save their life will lose it' Life the one we live, not existence.
God isn't a bloodthirsty arrogant narcissist who wants anyone to die for him, without purpose of saving. To die for Jesus/God means one who dies in action saving.
Jesus didn't forgive Peter, and Peter didn't repent.
Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved him and Peter answered through 'self'
In return Jesus explained that to Love him is through Saving and rescuing.
It's not possible to love God or Jesus through our ego, self proving or self expressions.
In addition to the UU as secular congregations, you can also meet with an ethical society. In the USA, there is the American Ethical Union.
Enjoy your honesty & perspective! I have challenge understanding words like " have you been saved or born again " Do you think Jesus or any his followers reached Enlightenment during their life time and achieve the ability to heal the sick or raise the dead? If Jesus
over came physical death why would He not continue His teachings on how we can obtain this to achieve this with in today's more educated population. Is there any relationship or connection with study the Bible or going to church leading to better mental health?
Did Jesus even suffer "physical death"?
OR did Saul aka Paul the f3r0c10us w0lf in she-ep's clo-thi-ng whom Jesus wa-rn-ed about sabotage the movement of the b3l13v3rs in the Messiah SENT by God. Paul preached a literally c-r-u-c-i-f-i-e-d Messiah which according to the Hebrew scriptures is a FA_LSE messiah exp0sed by God.
There is already evidence of ANOTHER GOSPEL AND ANOTHER JESUS which is contrary to Paul's "MY Gospel" and people are QUICKLY aba-nd-oning the Paul's ab_o-mi-nat-ion from the DE_V-I-L 👉 "My Gospel".
Galatians 1:6
I am astonished that you are SO QUICKLY DESERTING the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ AND ARE TURNING TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL--
"....... ANOTHER GOSPEL -"
What is this new discover regarding Jesus' miracles?
Caesarea Phillip was the site of the grotto/temple of Pan. It was cut into this huge rock and towered over the city. It was the most noticeable feature on the landscape. Imagine this settings, where Jesus asks, "Who do you say I am?", and Peter responds, "The Messiah, the Son of the Living God". "Now I say to you (Simon) that you are Petros (diminutive of petra, a small rock, a stone), and on "this the rock" ("taute te petra", a large rock, a cliff) I will build my church (ekklesia). The location also helps to make sense of Jesus' words about the gates of Hades, the keys, etc. So, no, it's not a nickname. It's name change for a purpose.
Note: As a subtext, Pan was also a shepherd. Jesus is the Great Shepherd. Peter as leader is the 'under shepherd' of Jesus' flock. The location matters.
What about the apostle Jesus loved?
As an optician I think both of you have interesting glasses.
Porneia is defined pretty well in Leviticus 18...
Given that we now know that some of John's letters are forgeries, how should Christians and Scholars approach them? Are they still relevant to the faith and to scholarship? What about other forgerd and inserted materials?
Are you a Christian?
They're absolutely useful as a way of identifying the ideas a particular group held. It's especially useful to compare the similarities and differences between mainstream and offshoots. The things they show in common are likely original, and the things that are different can give us an idea of why the groups split in the first place.
One suggestion about Peter's nickname of the Rock is because he was thick skulled. Imo that raises questions of why Jesus would choose someone who wasn't very bright as his right-hand man. Assuming, of course, that it wasn't just a literary device for Jesus to explain things in more detail.
There's definitely more discussion of Megan's hair than there is, or could be, of Bart's. But I imagine in his younger days, his hair might have been subject to much more extensive exegesis.
Peter's denial of Mark's Jesus of Nazareth reflects Elishua's denial of Elijah's request for Elishua to leave him to his death. Elishua gains a double helping of Elijah's spirit. IN MARK, Peter's denial is in line with Jesus's message of hope ending with Jesus's death.
Peter may have been educated. If Mark is influenced by Paul, he may not like Peter, thus portraying Peter as a lower class worker, a fisherman. Paul seems to indicate Peter was "converted" the same way Paul was - a vision of a celestial being.
The fisherman motif may reflects Jehovah's promise to Jeremiah to send fisherman to retrieve the people of Israel.
With so many other religious movements and “messiahs,” why did Christianity stick?
Maybe because it was particularly appealing in the Roman Empire where up to 30% of people were slaves. Also...Christianity gained an empire with Constantine.
As Don Quixote is to Sancho Panza so Jesus is to Peter.. Peter was not Cephas. The legend of Peter arose at the same time as the legend of Jesus. In Jewish circles he was known as Simon. In Greek circles he was called Peter. Hence Matthew goes to the trouble of identifying the two as the same person.
The best question was about Meagan
If Peter was Jesus' right hand man, why isn't he the one called "the disciple Jesus loved"?
Your both funny 😂❤
Peter “The Rock”: “Shut your mouth and know your role, Mary Magdalene!”
According to the biblical account, by the end of the 5th chapter of Acts, Peter turned out to be “like a foolish man who built his house on sand.” Peter had been taught to forgive, not seven times but seventy-seven times, and that what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven. At the end of John’s gospel Peter was told three times to “feed my sheep.” He took his responsibility seriously, and as the story unfolds, in the book of Acts, the 1st believers shared everything as common property and they all had everything they needed as a result, but then, as the leader of the early church, he disregarded Christ’s command for forgiveness and it caused Ananias and his wife their lives, all over a little bit of money. As a result, although the disciples were still highly regarded, “no one else dared join them” and the “loosing” began.
Peter is the man ❤