And remember everyone, we are NOT abolishing end to end encryption, if your worried about criminals using it, then go live in North Korea where its already banned. Dont sit there and scream think of the children, so that you can Rip more privacy away from honest Americans.
You're not the brightest bulb. A cop's job is to throw as much shit on as many walls as possible. Their whole modus operandi is "I know you done diggly did it, Just have to findout what" 🤣🤣🤣
@@igorthelight "all else being equal" most people want privacy. It's just not a priority for most people, but that's not the same as not giving a shit. So we need more polished, higher quality FOSS. Also, some people falsely believe that you can't have privacy on the internet, and some others falsely believe they already have privacy with, say, WhatsApp.
3:34 Something I noticed you need to understand: these subpoenas are very likely created to apply to any business they send them to. They might send them to a utility company, phone or insurance company, etc. They aren't expecting Signal to have that information, they are in essence demanding everything that Signal has on that person.
Yea exactly, or they might just say all that knowing they won’t have that data but on the off chance they do they still want it as it could hurt the investigation if the don’t get it. I imagine it is more of a leave no stone unturned type of deal, but I’m not a lawyer so what do I know 😂. However the dude in the video saying this is why our law enforcement is inept in this country is more of him just being misinformed or just showing his own ineptitude.
@@charleystello1822 but they still want the data. The guy in the video is not misinformed you are the one misunderstanding him. What he means is that companies like signal care about individual privacy however he says that the government only cares about privacy when they are included. Why should signal be forced to give up private information, regardless wether this involves a criminal investigation or not.
@@FocusTokus he seemed to be getting a chuckle of out a pretty ordinary document over its details for someone who wasnt misinformed, "why would they have their utility bills" etc, they are but they arent expecting it was the point, your the one misunderstanding
@@FocusTokus Yeah we know Signal doesn't have the stuff. The point of the comment you replied to is that the guy in the video was saying like "Heh why ask for all this stuff when a peek at their website would tell the feds they don't have any of it." The feds send this list as standard when they're trying to spy on you.
Almost every database stores timestamps in UTC and the conversion to the user's timezone is done on the client side. The conversion is done by the user's device OS probably. It's not done for privacy it's just good software architecture. Timezones are a nightmare to program for.
@@cheffromspace9771 With UTC time, can you tell which time zone the user connected from? Eastern, Central, Pacific? It tells me how little of Data Signal actually collects.
@@harishannamalai8669 That's the point of UTC: that everyone has the same timezone. Also, the whisper protocol requires you to know at least the destination of the message so you can deliver it. Signal just keeps the message as long as they need to deliver the message. While on server, they have access to both sender and recipient as long as none enable sealed sender.
"Do they seriously think people are giving all this information to Signal?" No, they don't. They just include everything and the kitchen sink to get as much data as possible. They list everything that they could possibly have, however unlikely.
@@thundersheild926 And yet the feds were basically at the point of falsely calling bullshit on Signal not having that data. They're apparently so accustomed to zucced sites and services having that kind of data, that they flat-out disbelieved the idea that Signal would not have it.
The reason why the legal document asked for things that neither Signal nor any messaging app would have (credit card info, employment records, etc) is because if Signal is asked for something it doesn’t have, it can just say that it doesn’t have it, and everyone moves on. But if Signal has something the prosecution didn’t ask for, then they don’t have to provide it, and the prosecution misses out on evidence. It is much more convenient for lawyers to write up a single generic document for any online service a suspect may have used, and send copies of it out to each company, than it is to waste time and risk errors by researching what each app does and asking just for relevant data, for no gain.
@@-ragingpotato-937 Absolutely. I watched the video to learn about what happened. Glad I could filter out the guy's rhetoric to understand what was actually happening here. He's allowed to have his opinions, of course, and the FBI aren't known to be the nicest kids on the block, but in this case everything seems to be by the book.
agreed it's this document is just the catch all purpose with zero risk like how typically cops try not to tell you why there doing what there doing because its safer to say nothing and have a the procecution the governments lawyers figure out what exactly they did wrong and then the officer can fit there story around that because if the cause they used in there probable cause search is invalid whether it be ill informed cops or legal loopholes or they straight up misjudged the suspect what they say can be used against them the same as you if there are alot of reasons to detain or search someone they don't legally have to tell you why and not all of them are legal
@@cagneybillingsley2165 well kinda you can make encryptions that can't be solved without the key within the lifetime of the earth with current technology so it might take a hundred years to develop advanced computers to crack it in a human timeframe like a lifetime or something basically alot of encryption on top of software and os without backdoors built in plus limit the tries to like 3 or 5 for Max security build a machine with alot of redundant parts and build it like a black box with anti tampering measures to brick it if they try to access the hardware these are really simple compared to going to jail for the rest of your life for the crimes they can find proof of on that hardrive hell I'd make a virtual ram drive so you have to explicitly save the session or it will be wiped when the computer turns off plus trap shortcuts and links just in case they get you while your logged in
This is exactly why I chose to not have friends and not use personal messaging apps! Now, does that matter considering I’m commenting on TH-cam? Of course not! But it’s all about _convincing ourselves_ it matters, right?
@@xrafter unix time is typically the number of seconds that have passed since the Unix epoch, which is an arbitrary date chosen as day 0 in this counting system (iirc it's 1970-01-01 at 00:00) Unix millis is the same just in milliseconds (just add 3 extra digits).
The reason the subpoena asks for any available tax ID number, utility bills, payment info, etc., is because either A- they're just trying to cover ALL their bases, or, perhaps more likely, B- they're using a kind of "cookie-cutter" form letter that sits in a file, ready, and can be quickly pulled out and adapted with pertinant info like name, address, phone number, etc., and sent to "any social media site," or something like that.
Both. It's just organizationally more efficient to have a single format. They'd send this same thing out to a utility company, insurance company, retail shop, and the IRS. Only the IRS might get especially stingy.
The subpoena makes more sense when you remember that you only have to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit. They have to include everything they might possibly want on the off chance that signal has it, or else signal doesn't have to give it to them.
@dh Depends on case law. If anybody doesn't know what that means, basically the precedent set in previous cases similar or identical to this. The US Court system mostly functions off of case law, which is why "landmark cases" are such a big deal, and superior courts will kick a case back down to a lower court if there's a bad ruling, as to not set any bad precedents.
The unix timestamp format is there because they are legally required to provide data in it's original format (because formatting the data could potentially give way to changing it). They would not be allowed to nicely format the dates even if Signal wanted to. So it's not like Signal did that because they wanted to, they had no other option.
So wait. If I'm asked for a PostgreSQL timestamp, I need to provide the 8-byte encoded value instead of the human-readable ISO 8601 format? Do I also need to make sure null-terminated strings include the null character? Do I send floats in binary format cause most base 10 representations will introduce rounding errors? OP's argument sure sounds hella dumb once you start applying it literally.
Nice one! I love that, especially since now these people will ask wtf this means, and they will have to ask experts to learn that this only tells them when in UTC the User connected forst to signal and when last
@Sealed I don't think so. Converting from binary to decimal isn't the same thing as reformatting the number entirely. If they formatted it to include the date and minute, then it would be leaving out seconds an milliseconds. Even if that information is almost certainly unimportant, it would technically still mean not fully complying with the subpoena. Additionally, the format that the date is stored in is also information. The fact that it was stored in unix millis is also almost certainly unimportant, but leaving that information out would mean not fully complying with a subpoena.
Here’s the thing: what they were asking for isn’t what they expected to get, they likely just listed anything that *could* help. Legal papers are complicated in that any slip-up in the writing could get the investigation completely killed for malpractice.
THIS, just THIS, it is better to ask for everyone possible, then to ask for specific things and potentialy missing evidence. If they request every possible data the company can simply say "we dont haev that data" and move one. BUT they have to saythat for every piece of data requested. While if you request only specific ones they do not have(or would not) provide anything more, missing potential evidence
Fr. The only idea this gave me is that the guy making this is inept because he thinks this "gives you an idea of how inept law enforcement is in this country." There's so much wrong with this I would end up writing an essay about his stupidity, so I'll just leave it here - A LEO didn't write up that document, it was some Lawyer. Even if it was a LEO, it would have been filling in a bunch of blanks, with the original template being written by a lawyer.
What's scary is that it was probably just a form letter, and that's what they ask for as standard procedure. Now imagine a similar letter being sent to Facebook...
You can't obtain content from social media with a grand jury subpoena. You can obtain subscriber information (name, address, email, birthdate, SSN, etc), billing information, IP addresses and connection logs, communications between the company and the user, and device information. You need a search warrant to obtain content like DMs, FB posts, shares, etc.
@@w1z4rd9 Not if you are the youngest person in your family and any “bright” ideas will always be a result me of me “looking up stupid shit” on the internet. My opinion is almost never valid unless it’s a known universal fact.
5:05 You're missing the point. They're asking so broadly because they can. Not because they expect to receive it. If signal has any of that and don't comply they're in deep trouble. If they just ask for what they expect to get and they get that signal doesn't have to worry.
It's broad to cover anything, they do it on purpose and if they don't get what they want they'll "investigate" you. Kind of bewildered that he thinks they're stupid.
@@danavram8437 iollll kkk llkkl kl lll lol l lk lol LL lll l l klk l lk l l lk l lk LL k l lk LL LL k l llll LL LL LL lll lol LL LL lll lll l lk LL lllll lll llkllkkk LL l l l l l lk l l l lk l lk l l l l l lk lll l l l l l klk LL LL LL LL l lll l l l l l lll l l l l lk l l lll LL LL lll LL k l l lll l lk LL l l l l lll LL lllllll lmmmmmll,LL,mppplpllllllll lll lllllllllllmmmmmlmmpmppll mll
It was probably a boilerplate letter to collect as much information as possible. They aren't saying they believe Signal has all of it, they're telling them to provide whatever they do.
And if they had investigated just 2 minutes beforhand, they would have known that there is no useful information stored, it is all explained on the website...
The FBI is not a part of California. It says Central district of California on it because that it the organization that the FBI must work through to get this sort of information. The FBI sidestepping the court and asking directly would be an unusual use of federal power and may be viewed as an overstep. If the court of California were to refuse to make this subpoena that would almost certainly be viewed as an overreach of state power to refuse such a direct request from the federal government
@@kusada3035 tl;dr while I tend to agree with most of what gets preached over here, everyone needs to fucking chill. I feel like california is about as much of a cesspool as anywhere else, but the people here are the ones who tend to complain about it the most and often times the loudest. the way I see it is that we got molehill problems. granted, molehills are definitely problems that genuinely warrant action, but a lot of people here act like they're dealing with mountains. they're not wrong for wanting to take action, but they act like it's the end of world as we know it sometimes. it's annoying as fuck and dilutes whatever positive message or outcome that could have resulted.
Talking about that, don't use telegram. The other day someone "related" to a random weeb group I was got murdered, no clue since it was just some stupid weeb group; my account related chats and any weeb group I was got wiped clean; and I mean, everything, private conversations, everyone who was a weeb... only few non-weeb people were left. Can't say why, but no doubt someone messed up with those records with certain criteria at telegram side. Either way that's terrible security.
I’m actually floored that the ACLU is helping Signal. The ACLU seems to have chosen sides over the past couple of decades, not generally the side of freedom.
How so? They seem to pretty consistently fight for freedom. The aclu, institute of Justice, eff, and a few others consistently fight for principled stances, but the indoctrinated don't like it when that freedom comes at the expense of the partisan issues they've been programmed to hate on.
*_but how do we make money without tracking and advertising to people?_* Signal: _Simple. Don't make it about the money, and keep your app small and refuse to add a bunch of junior developers that don't really get paid to do anything but sit in meetings all day._
But it is about money, you dont get to choice. It costs money to run compute, it costs money to use bandwidth. Signal will be gone in a few years, due to not being able to maintain costs, or they make money off you. And trust me, they not going anywhere.
I'm sure WhatsApp also claims somewhere on some website that they have "state of the art encryption" but they'd be able to provide all the information the court asked for and probably a lot more too. Signal on the other hand doesn't just claim something, they prove it with their open sourced code.
@@NonsenseNinja Really? Can you show me on the source code of WhatsApp exactly where the encryption is coded to be end to end with no backdoors or (lizard)man in the middle? If you can't prove it with the source code, you're just talking out of your arse.
@@a1phamalestud WhatsApp tried to take over my phone. I couldn't even delete or force stop the app until I turned on maximum battery saver and turned off my data. Then I was able to use Google file to delete that crap WhatsApp.
As a librarian who actually gives a shit about protecting patron privacy (lots of people are rightfully frustrated with being tracked and don't want the government to have access to their personal data) this is great to see. I've used signal for a while, but it's nice to see some proof that they are doing as they claim
@@Prsop554 The government is not the people anymore, the government are evil shills taking advantage of the people, who do not deserve your data. You sound like a fed.
"All of your guns, All of your tanks, All of this power and authority that you think you have; is not more powerful than math" epic smart guy beating the big bully moment
What? If the government wanted they could just introduce legislation/regulations, mandating that certain types of companies store certain data. Signal would promptly either stop being in the US, or theyd comply with new regulations like 100% of businesses in the US.
@@greed864 Well then the users could encrypt their stuff themselves. If they're really serious about privacy, in principle they don't need a middle man amyway. With that being said, screw any kind of government that mandates data collection to companies: sounds like a bad case of fascism.
It's best to give the dates in the form in which they are stored, i.e. unix milliseconds. That way nobody can accuse them of providing incomplete or altered information.
This man really just read the entire subpoena except for the two words, "if available". Lmao, they aren't idiots who don't know what Signal is, they just ask for everything so that they get everything.
I wouldn't be surprised if after this the alfabeto Bois would legally require companies to collect private information from its users if they want to operate within US borders. "Land of the free" brothers yeeeha (Granted most of them already do cuz selling your info is essentially free money, but those who truly care about privacy will not stand a chance which is overall sad)
they already kinda expect websites to do this already. its only a matter of time before every site has to comply with a "citizen internet protection and anti-cybercrime initiative act" law that makes the #1 selling point of these apps and sites moot.
@@umamifan You need to understand and remember that even if that became the case, there will still be a million other ways people could go about protecting their lives and privacy. It’s trivial to setup your own servers to host messaging clients, and where you do that, on who’s network, and what steps or prerequisites are involved to connect to such configurations are basically endless, sufficing to say this will be a non-issue for those who want it bad enough, and just a very rude and crude human rights issue for the rest of society going forward...
@@ivailogeimara Not gonna happen. That cat was let out of the bag far too many years ago... You may not understand it, but the internet as you know it literally comprises only a mere 3-4% of what it actually entails at any one given time. There are so many other protocols and platforms that run over the copper (or light) and at different frequencies or wavelengths that are completely invisible to standard routing technology that it’d make your head explode if you knew what they all were, how they worked, and what the mean for communications. And in the future this will only progress, unless society as a whole regresses completely...
"Your honor, as you can see here, Anon rated Signal with five stars, stating the following: "Good shit". This very clearly shows intent, and is why i think Anon should be thrown under the jail."
What an odd subjective experience that would be... getting thrown under a jail Is there like a pocket dimension under there? Do they shrink you down? Or are you just violently stuffed underneath, like some twisted death penalty Asking the real questions tonight...
4:50 The list of demands isn't inept or arbitrary. Once Signal can't provide most of that, the feds will likely try to compel Signal (and similar apps) going forth to comply with Know Your Customer law, under some minutia of the wording of that law, even though Signal isn't Fintech.
3:30 No, they don't seriously think that. They cast the widest net possible _just in case_ that information, for whatever insane reason, _is_ available. That's because if they don't do it with the initial subpoena going back later to get even more evidence is a serious pain-in-the-ass. Government is excellent at bureaucracy.
No , probably 150% , it will probably include your parents and dead grandparents info+ blood type, DNA test , favorite anime, food , p*rn also your first word , and more 😂
@@m_elite that's right. since algorithms can predict behaviors you don't even knew, based off your habits, they'd really provide more than 100% of the user's input.
Kinda like how job hiring requirements list stuff like; 15 years expiriance, and 10 different degrees for a "Entry level Position", even for janitors XD
@@UNSCPILOT In the case of job descriptions, unrealistic requirement lists is inept. Makes it impossible for applicants to self select for what jobs they're actually qualified for.
Signal’s Records Officer must be a sweet job: a little less busy than the Maytag repair guy. Plus, for that sweet company trip to Californiastan, he probably only had to pack his court-shirt and an empty manilla folder.
I refused to KYC at coinbase because they literally wanted my employment history and exactly where and when and how I acquired my funds. You should do a vid on that glowy entity.
I've been considering an account at coinbase. You just presented a strong argument against. But are any of the other crypto exchanges supporting fiat legal tender any better?
Honestly, I thought that KYC only required a valid ID. Even banks don't ask for your employment history and how you get funds, unless you have over 10,000 dollars or so.
Reminds me of a recent story with Telegram except FSB requested decryption keys and recieved a pair of rusty iron keys along with a letter explainig "that's the best we have".
Regarding the phone number: As you already mentioned, Signal probably only stores a hashed version of it in their system (which is referred to as "Account" in the response table). Given the phone number provided by the FBI the hash can be easily calculated but not the other way round.
Nothing makes me want to use signal more than knowing they don’t even have the data that the FBI considers standard operating procedure. Why does Facebook need to track my “correspondence”
I love how Signal has information that isn't even that useful to begin with in 99% of cases. Like what are they even gonna do with when this person logged into signal huh? XD
Actually is the server crashes, and an idiot user is behind that, you can see what profile requested to the server when it crashes. It's an hypothetical case, but it's valid.
@@talkysassis nope even then you couldn't, Signal uses a secure enclave on their server, basically like reverse DRM, all information sent from users can only be interacted with by signal's open source code. Even the OS Kernel cannot access it
@@GlenMerlin That's not what I said. I said that this information is relevant to the server log. This way you can see when the server have more workload as a more realistic case.
Since this is a court order made at the request of the FBI, and not by the FBI itself, it's probably good that Signal didn't troll the court any more than just providing the dates in Unix timestamp format. We don't want them to be held in contempt, fined, or end up on the shitlist of a judge that may one day preside over an unrelated proceeding of theirs in the future. (That last one is important: If the FBI decides they want to compel Signal to put some backdoors in, it's up to the court to reign them in.)
So the government compelling a company to compromise something they have created is in essence compelled speech, and thats a big fat first amendment no no. So yes, the gold rule of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" when dealing with a federal judge applys here. No federal judge in the country would let that happen, regardless of who the subject of the investigation was.
@@CFSworks sorry I should have clarified, if they were told to compromise the platform/app. They can offer to do so, but they can't be compelled to do so.
@@MorRobots Ah I see. But that still wouldn't be compelled speech. It might be a violation of 4A rights, but not 1A. The most relevant law that might enable this, the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, has never been challenged on 1A grounds.
@@CFSworks so search for: Being Forced to Code in the Technology Era as a Violation of the Being Forced to Code in the Technology Era as a Violation of the First Amendment Protection Against Compelled Speech First Amendment Protection Against Compelled Speech By Adrianna Oddo It's a solid, and well cited legal opinion on the goverment (DoJ, via FBI) on compelling a company to alter code they authored and it being a first amendment violation. Remeber Speech is a broad term here.
The subpoena request is a bog standard request that the Feds send out to pretty much any company whenever they request information. I have had to process a few of these myself, and they mostly look the same. Although some requests (mostly from state/local govts) will be very narrow (eg. emails relating to a specific user/domain only and nothing else, or only relating to access information -- eg log files), most of the time they just expect you to send whatever you have or the intent is communicated outside of the formal subpeona (eg. via email). Whenever I have had to process these I just dump everything into a tarball and let them sort through it. lol
One of the reasons for sending the time as UNIX time can be the fact that the data is stored that way. So you can't be punished for manipulating the data as that is the way they were stored in your database
Since every important Server in the Internet runs on Linux anyways, the storing with Unixtimestamp is absolutely logical. You can later do the math and convert to a human readable normal DD.MM.YYYY, if needed. If you would store in other formats, you would have to store the information on timezone and daylight saving time.
John McAfee? You mean that guy who said that iOS is part of your iPhone’s instruction set? I'd take anything this guy said about computer science with a large grain of salt to be honest.
@@ThePC007 yeah, the "explanation" that McAfee gave assumed that the password to an iPhone was stored on it locally, unencrypted. Obviously, that is not the case, but people believe what they want to.
It's open source though. If that happens everyone will see it and spread the word, and someone will fork it, and that's it. The FBI would be chasing its own tail.
The result will be legislation requiring any communications app developer to require all that information in order to grant an account. Which, of course, will result in a user-developed blockchain communications solution.
"user developed blockchain solution" You can't just add the word blockchain and assume it's some magic black box that solves any and all of the world problem. 🙊 Shit I might just start a blockchain food and water company and try and trick people into funding me.
@@WhiteFox-ce8ep "More like" implies that "duty" is somehow more accurate than "obligation". "I prefer duty" would be more appropriate than "More like a duty". In any case, this is all totally irrelevant.
Good to see that some level of digital privacy and freedom is still being made possible by people around the world. Seems that lately I’ve seen more and more people, both private and corporate, realizing that this status quo is ripe for change and they’re taking steps to be at the forefront of that change. It’ll be a terrifyingly brave new world, but I think I’ll take that over our current stagnation.
The standard subpoena language used is just that, standard. They all say "You are commanded" that is how subpoenas work. They can be issued by defendant's attorneys too. It allows them to secure exculpatory evidence and witnesses as well.
The problem with signal, is I could never get my friends or family to use it too, so it was pointless. End to End encryption is a two way street than the normies don't want to walk on.
It's simple, really. Stop communicating with them on any other untrusted platform. If you actually care about your privacy, that's the only choice you have. To be clear, I'm not saying that will get them to use Signal, just that it's the option you have to keep/take back a little of your privacy.
First of all 95% of you have nobody to text, and second of all, the only privacy concerns you have is people finding out your hentai addiction, which your ISP already knows about.
Reason that they sent their subpoena with as much specific shit requested as they did, was so that if signal was holding any of that at all they couldn’t withhold it. It’s kinda on the requester to make sure that they request as much as possible, so they throw shit at the wall to see what sticks. It’s not inept law enforcement, it’s the way the law works.
The FBI's letter is no doubt repeat use and for all cases. A saying I grew up with is "you don't know if you don't ask" and this is exactly what this is.
Regarding the timestamps: they didn't troll anyone. That is the actual data they have, unprocessed. And the legal request had to include all that, regardless of what Signal claims - it's not because of stupidity on their part (although it doesn't forgo the idea either)
I mean I dont think the feds we’re expecting all of those boxes to be checked (hence the “if available”) but it’s pretty hilarious how little they had to provide
They legally couldn't do it any other way. They have to provide the data unaltered. They have to give it as they have it, and as it happens they have it very inconveniently.
"... They might just go to your house and burn it down with you and your kids inside." Wow, it's these subtle things that make your videos funny. I like the reference to Waco.
"Why are they asking for these things when signal doesn't have that type of information?" Because they have a template word document and they just change the name of the person and the app
0:15 how can WhatsApp use a forked version of signal? Isn’t signal published under the GPL? wouldn’t WhatsApp be required to be open source by the license?
Not sure if it's GPL, but it doesn't actually matter, to get some funds Signal actually worked with the WhatsApp team to implement the signal protocol, so they probably made an exception for Whatsapp to use the protocol current snapshot outside the license if something like that was actually needed.
That's a pretty standard federal subpoena. Law enforcement typically just makes several versions of the same subpoena and changes out relevant info like company name and address then sends them out to all target companies.
When someone put YOU ARE COMMANDED in their letter for a subpoena I can't take them seriously and can only assume they have anterior motives. They letter just screams REEEEEEEEEE
@@niclikescakesI mean it's better to cover all your bases. If they don't have the data you ask for, they'll tell you that they don't have it. If you don't ask for it, they don't give it to you. CYA, and it's not worth the effort to research what data they actually maintain when you can issue a catch all
@@niclikescakes Wym, it's boilerplate they send to all companies. That's why it says "if applicable" It's much more waste of time to research every single application on their phone and what information they have. The sooner they get the information the sooner they can make their case. It doesn't particularly matter that they have no information, and the case will go on
Why isn’t anybody else covering this REALLY important information? This is solid evidence that Signal does exactly as they say. I love it! This is the reason why I use Signal every day and donate every year!
That is clearly a catch all user data subpoena. I think that makes this worse. The court is requiring they turn over as much user data as possible for them to decide if it was linked with a crime despite most of that stuff not being relevant. A well written subpoena detailing what information they are requesting that was application specific would at least show they put thought into it but they are just firing off subpoenas to get as much information as possible likely trying to avoid dealing with the 4th amendment.
Not a corporation, if they were then they'd be arms of the state or some variation of a union. Just a private company that respects basic freedoms and privacy.
Reminds me of GDPR in EU - they care so much about privacy that every company must comply to the rules... except the state. According to GDPR the state can still spy on their citizens on demand.
Heven forbid companies send people junk mail. But we can still send goons round your house at 3am because you wrote a crude tweet to one of our politicians.
I am not surprised by that because in the end, most of European countries still have some terms in their law that trace back to where monarchy is a thing (and have reserved power), and thus reserved some right for the state. I am just surprised that the US, the land of free, is heading to their privacy law toward the EU.
Pissing off a judge is almost never a good idea. I think Snowden's email provider was forced to release an encryption key or something of the sort, and they submitted it printed out in 4-point font. It didn't help, just enraged the judge. I think they get away with giving the dates in unix millis because that's how the data is actually stored. But if they had actively made it more obscure, the judge would have made many things more strenuous for them.
That’s the format the data was stored in, so legally they had to provide it in that format. Changing the format opens the data to further modification.
@@pretzelbomb6105 This doesn't really make much sense. Please define "the format that data is stored in". Unix timestamp? Binary? Magnetic fields on a hard disk? All 3 of them can qualify.
The idea at 4:55 isn't entirely so much as being inept, though it largely is, but the idea that they can attempt to extort as much information that they think they can scrape from companies to the exact maximum quantity to the letter that the law provides "legitimately" to these law enforcement agencies. The thing is that these types of companies have gotten a lot smarter and just simply don't collect any of it so there's nothing of legitimate value in the process to give up. It doesn't matter if it's actually impossible because even in the most obscure off chance that they actually accidentally DID collect any of this relevant information but failed to provide it, they can use it as a legal excuse to push garbage criminal/civil charges against the company to have them taken down in the process too.
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Make Meow Messaging App
And remember everyone, we are NOT abolishing end to end encryption, if your worried about criminals using it, then go live in North Korea where its already banned. Dont sit there and scream think of the children, so that you can Rip more privacy away from honest Americans.
You're not the brightest bulb. A cop's job is to throw as much shit on as many walls as possible. Their whole modus operandi is "I know you done diggly did it, Just have to findout what" 🤣🤣🤣
Most of you support the Antichrist (trump) stop pretending you're good
Feds are communists! It took me few months to learn what happens on the texas border...
Easily the best Signal ad I've ever seen
I don’t have anyone on Signal but I just downloaded it for the lulz.
👀 unless its all glow theatre
@@Ultrajamz anything is possible in this absolutely uranium level glowing world
That's so true :D
@pm4rcin snowden kinda glows. if he were a threat why did they make a movie about him and give him so much publicity?
We need more apps like this, so that it becomes "the new normal' - privacy, security, and respect for the user.
Agree.
That that will not happen - most people don't give a shit about privacy.
They want convenience.
@@igorthelight "all else being equal" most people want privacy. It's just not a priority for most people, but that's not the same as not giving a shit. So we need more polished, higher quality FOSS. Also, some people falsely believe that you can't have privacy on the internet, and some others falsely believe they already have privacy with, say, WhatsApp.
Yes, but its not as profitable as apps that stores your personal info, because they can sell that info.
@@4.0.4 Fair points!
So there can be more predators safely harassing children…
I installed signal. Now just need to find some friends so I can talk to them on signal.
That's the roughest part
I've being trying to convince all my friends to use signal, but mom doesn't know how.
@@RDRF_SB13 mom can't be bothered, I converted my dad though
Can't post my phone number lmao
@@MrTheKamir I've genuinely tried, I live 2 hours away from them, they don't seem to care about privacy. They are old though.
3:34 Something I noticed you need to understand: these subpoenas are very likely created to apply to any business they send them to. They might send them to a utility company, phone or insurance company, etc. They aren't expecting Signal to have that information, they are in essence demanding everything that Signal has on that person.
Yea exactly, or they might just say all that knowing they won’t have that data but on the off chance they do they still want it as it could hurt the investigation if the don’t get it. I imagine it is more of a leave no stone unturned type of deal, but I’m not a lawyer so what do I know 😂. However the dude in the video saying this is why our law enforcement is inept in this country is more of him just being misinformed or just showing his own ineptitude.
@@charleystello1822 but they still want the data. The guy in the video is not misinformed you are the one misunderstanding him. What he means is that companies like signal care about individual privacy however he says that the government only cares about privacy when they are included. Why should signal be forced to give up private information, regardless wether this involves a criminal investigation or not.
@@FocusTokus he seemed to be getting a chuckle of out a pretty ordinary document over its details for someone who wasnt misinformed, "why would they have their utility bills" etc, they are but they arent expecting it was the point, your the one misunderstanding
These are also sent as bot mails, basically sent through to a vast majority of companies at the same time.
@@FocusTokus Yeah we know Signal doesn't have the stuff. The point of the comment you replied to is that the guy in the video was saying like "Heh why ask for all this stuff when a peek at their website would tell the feds they don't have any of it." The feds send this list as standard when they're trying to spy on you.
The Unix timestamp has to be the most formal middle finger i've ever seen.
I dunno what that is, but still a well-mannered way to drop F-bomb to the Feds
@@HafifSyukra it's the number of milliseconds since 12:00 AM January 1, 1970. Completely inexcrutable unless you convert it to a useful format.
@@stinkylizard its seconds not milliseconds
isn't it called Unix epoch? Its the amount of seconds since January 1st 1970?
@@darkpenguins9594 it literlly says millis
The Unix timestamp response suggests that Signal doesn't even store the time zone from where the user last connected. Happy to know.
True! I didn't realize that! Thank you!
Almost every database stores timestamps in UTC and the conversion to the user's timezone is done on the client side. The conversion is done by the user's device OS probably. It's not done for privacy it's just good software architecture. Timezones are a nightmare to program for.
@@cheffromspace9771 With UTC time, can you tell which time zone the user connected from? Eastern, Central, Pacific? It tells me how little of Data Signal actually collects.
@@harishannamalai8669 That's the point of UTC: that everyone has the same timezone. Also, the whisper protocol requires you to know at least the destination of the message so you can deliver it. Signal just keeps the message as long as they need to deliver the message. While on server, they have access to both sender and recipient as long as none enable sealed sender.
It's way harder to manage different time zones in the database. Unixtime is way simpler
"Do they seriously think people are giving all this information to Signal?"
No, they don't. They just include everything and the kitchen sink to get as much data as possible. They list everything that they could possibly have, however unlikely.
Exactly. While the story is pretty fun, the letter is obviously meant to just be a catch all for any data. It repeatedly says if available
Yeah, they probably sent this letter to dozens of companies.
Didn't apple try to subpoena way too much information from steam?
@@thundersheild926 And yet the feds were basically at the point of falsely calling bullshit on Signal not having that data. They're apparently so accustomed to zucced sites and services having that kind of data, that they flat-out disbelieved the idea that Signal would not have it.
They for got gamertag, highscore and favorite dance move
The Trollier response: Give the Unix time in binary - ALL of the account information *exactly* as stored on server.
Let's be honest they probably couldn't figure out what Unix time was.
The reason why the legal document asked for things that neither Signal nor any messaging app would have (credit card info, employment records, etc) is because if Signal is asked for something it doesn’t have, it can just say that it doesn’t have it, and everyone moves on. But if Signal has something the prosecution didn’t ask for, then they don’t have to provide it, and the prosecution misses out on evidence. It is much more convenient for lawyers to write up a single generic document for any online service a suspect may have used, and send copies of it out to each company, than it is to waste time and risk errors by researching what each app does and asking just for relevant data, for no gain.
Exactly, the moment the guy went on the tanks and guns minirant I knew he had 0 clue of how any of the Feds proceedings actually work lol.
@@-ragingpotato-937 Absolutely. I watched the video to learn about what happened. Glad I could filter out the guy's rhetoric to understand what was actually happening here.
He's allowed to have his opinions, of course, and the FBI aren't known to be the nicest kids on the block, but in this case everything seems to be by the book.
agreed it's this document is just the catch all purpose with zero risk
like how typically cops try not to tell you why there doing what there doing because its safer to say nothing and have a the procecution the governments lawyers figure out what exactly they did wrong and then the officer can fit there story around that because if the cause they used in there probable cause search is invalid whether it be ill informed cops or legal loopholes or they straight up misjudged the suspect
what they say can be used against them the same as you
if there are alot of reasons to detain or search someone they don't legally have to tell you why and not all of them are legal
all encryption can be broken. the nsa is already on it. never underestimate your opponent
@@cagneybillingsley2165 well kinda you can make encryptions that can't be solved without the key within the lifetime of the earth with current technology so it might take a hundred years to develop advanced computers to crack it in a human timeframe like a lifetime or something
basically alot of encryption on top of software and os without backdoors built in
plus limit the tries to like 3 or 5
for Max security build a machine with alot of redundant parts and build it like a black box with anti tampering measures to brick it if they try to access the hardware
these are really simple compared to going to jail for the rest of your life for the crimes they can find proof of on that hardrive
hell I'd make a virtual ram drive so you have to explicitly save the session or it will be wiped when the computer turns off plus trap shortcuts and links just in case they get you while your logged in
The easiest way to avoid someone stealing your user data, either by governments or by criminal organisations, is to simply not have it.
This is exactly why I chose to not have friends and not use personal messaging apps!
Now, does that matter considering I’m commenting on TH-cam? Of course not! But it’s all about _convincing ourselves_ it matters, right?
@@abubakrakram6208 don't you like, massage your friends?
@@abubakrakram6208 now that's sad
@@tacticalguy6473 You do know you can talk to your friends in-person, right?
@@tacticalguy6473 I'd rather hang out with them irl tbh.
Imagine feds being able to get datetime from unix timestamp
I think they gave UNIX timestamp on purpose to mock the normie fed, i kek'd
They will have to forward the email to the smarter feds, thus creating clogs in the system.
@@TheNinjaDwarfBiker same here
i imagine they won't know how to turn unix time to normal DD/MM/YYYY system or i think it was MM/DD/YYYY in the US
@@fitmotheyap
May i ask you how could you do this ?
I looked at source code of something similar but its just uses a function in another file.
@@xrafter unix time is typically the number of seconds that have passed since the Unix epoch, which is an arbitrary date chosen as day 0 in this counting system (iirc it's 1970-01-01 at 00:00)
Unix millis is the same just in milliseconds (just add 3 extra digits).
The reason the subpoena asks for any available tax ID number, utility bills, payment info, etc., is because either A- they're just trying to cover ALL their bases, or, perhaps more likely, B- they're using a kind of "cookie-cutter" form letter that sits in a file, ready, and can be quickly pulled out and adapted with pertinant info like name, address, phone number, etc., and sent to "any social media site," or something like that.
The answer is probably both
Both. It's just organizationally more efficient to have a single format. They'd send this same thing out to a utility company, insurance company, retail shop, and the IRS. Only the IRS might get especially stingy.
@@jackr2287just need to do due diligence. Always ask and never know when somebody will surprise you.
Both, really.
This. Still funny af though
Kudos to Signal for being this solid. For now anyway.
Thank lord its click bait thought they sold us out
@@rsyoutube9252 the thumbnail should've told you enough about what happened
@@ninjaorange5061 no it didnt
@@rsyoutube9252 Thank lord they us out? Wut?
@@ticktockbam He's thanking the lord that this video isn't clickbait. That Signal REALLY did stand up to The Feds.
They will never intercept my carrier pigeons with encryped usb sticks caerying my messages to friends that short circuit after the message is read.
*Air drone heard hovering outside basement window
Or you could just send coded letters?
dol t you use encrypted FM radio signals?
Ghana has entered the chat
Mirror's Edge reference?
The subpoena makes more sense when you remember that you only have to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit. They have to include everything they might possibly want on the off chance that signal has it, or else signal doesn't have to give it to them.
spirit of the law,
@dh Depends on case law.
If anybody doesn't know what that means, basically the precedent set in previous cases similar or identical to this.
The US Court system mostly functions off of case law, which is why "landmark cases" are such a big deal, and superior courts will kick a case back down to a lower court if there's a bad ruling, as to not set any bad precedents.
like when some Google employee didn't give out user data because the agent made a typo in the email they were requesting :D
The unix timestamp format is there because they are legally required to provide data in it's original format (because formatting the data could potentially give way to changing it). They would not be allowed to nicely format the dates even if Signal wanted to. So it's not like Signal did that because they wanted to, they had no other option.
They _could_ provide both original and formatted, but why would they?
I wouldn't have anyways
So wait. If I'm asked for a PostgreSQL timestamp, I need to provide the 8-byte encoded value instead of the human-readable ISO 8601 format? Do I also need to make sure null-terminated strings include the null character? Do I send floats in binary format cause most base 10 representations will introduce rounding errors?
OP's argument sure sounds hella dumb once you start applying it literally.
Nice one! I love that, especially since now these people will ask wtf this means, and they will have to ask experts to learn that this only tells them when in UTC the User connected forst to signal and when last
@Sealed I don't think so. Converting from binary to decimal isn't the same thing as reformatting the number entirely. If they formatted it to include the date and minute, then it would be leaving out seconds an milliseconds. Even if that information is almost certainly unimportant, it would technically still mean not fully complying with the subpoena. Additionally, the format that the date is stored in is also information. The fact that it was stored in unix millis is also almost certainly unimportant, but leaving that information out would mean not fully complying with a subpoena.
I guess the feds expected Signal to have the perfectly normal ID sign up requirement like TH-cam or Facebook.
@Rlaziken Anyone that calls Facebook “Meta” is cringe. We should just collectively bully Facebook by not allowing them to change their name.
@Rlaziken [sensible chuckle]
@Rlaziken no the entity behind Facebook is called meta. Facebook is still Facebook.
@@beansbeans96 Once a Zucc always a Zucc
@@beansbeans96
Smells like fish, tastes like fish, looks like fish...
Here’s the thing: what they were asking for isn’t what they expected to get, they likely just listed anything that *could* help. Legal papers are complicated in that any slip-up in the writing could get the investigation completely killed for malpractice.
THIS, just THIS, it is better to ask for everyone possible, then to ask for specific things and potentialy missing evidence.
If they request every possible data the company can simply say "we dont haev that data" and move one.
BUT they have to saythat for every piece of data requested.
While if you request only specific ones they do not have(or would not) provide anything more, missing potential evidence
Fr. The only idea this gave me is that the guy making this is inept because he thinks this "gives you an idea of how inept law enforcement is in this country." There's so much wrong with this I would end up writing an essay about his stupidity, so I'll just leave it here - A LEO didn't write up that document, it was some Lawyer. Even if it was a LEO, it would have been filling in a bunch of blanks, with the original template being written by a lawyer.
@@DrymarchonShaun the point of the video is to show how signal is an amazing application that doesnt track shit
imagine this was a honeypot and they just did this to bait people into thinking its secure
@@cyprezz_ Signal is open source (unlike whatsapp) so if they were doing something they claim not to, it should be visible there.
What's scary is that it was probably just a form letter, and that's what they ask for as standard procedure. Now imagine a similar letter being sent to Facebook...
Here is 10 MB of plain text!
@@simonwillover4175 more like: Here's a 1ZB of plain text of everything!
You can't obtain content from social media with a grand jury subpoena. You can obtain subscriber information (name, address, email, birthdate, SSN, etc), billing information, IP addresses and connection logs, communications between the company and the user, and device information. You need a search warrant to obtain content like DMs, FB posts, shares, etc.
The toughest part when you switch to Signal is when you have to convince most of your non-tech friends and families to switch to Signal.
My strategy was ignoring or delaying responses to non-Signal messages. It worked.
@ One person said, people that care about you, people that really wants to talk to you will switch. It's as easy as that.
People that care about you will take you to the doctor and get your mental issues treated, not comply with your unhealthy paranoia.
@@SpecterNeverSpectator Looks like having an Open-Source E2EE is now paranoia.
@@w1z4rd9 Not if you are the youngest person in your family and any “bright” ideas will always be a result me of me “looking up stupid shit” on the internet. My opinion is almost never valid unless it’s a known universal fact.
5:05
You're missing the point. They're asking so broadly because they can. Not because they expect to receive it. If signal has any of that and don't comply they're in deep trouble. If they just ask for what they expect to get and they get that signal doesn't have to worry.
looks like a template tbh, they probably sent it out to multiple companies and just replaced the names
@@danavram8437 Seriously that's all that is. Some agent just copy pasted a template because paperwork sucks.
It's broad to cover anything, they do it on purpose and if they don't get what they want they'll "investigate" you. Kind of bewildered that he thinks they're stupid.
If you dont mention it then you wont get it so they say everything they can to make sure they get everything they can.
@@danavram8437 iollll kkk llkkl kl lll lol l lk lol LL lll l l klk l lk l l lk l lk LL k l lk LL LL k l llll LL LL LL lll lol LL LL lll lll l lk LL lllll lll llkllkkk LL l l l l l lk l l l lk l lk l l l l l lk lll l l l l l klk LL LL LL LL l lll l l l l l lll l l l l lk l l lll LL LL lll LL k l l lll l lk LL l l l l lll LL lllllll lmmmmmll,LL,mppplpllllllll lll lllllllllllmmmmmlmmpmppll mll
“All of your guns, all of your tanks, all of this power and authority that you think you have, is not more powerful than math…” based as fuck
Also you can't rewrite the laws of physics.
@@sdjhgfkshfswdfhskljh3360 say that to isaac newton. Guy invented gravity and now we cant fly
This even true when you replace "math" with "meth". Drugs are winning the war on drugs.
@@GAArunabh that's because declaring war on drugs is as stupid as trying to kill someone by pulling his hair
@@GAArunabh because the war on drugs wasn't about drugs. It was just to arrest black people and hippies
It was probably a boilerplate letter to collect as much information as possible. They aren't saying they believe Signal has all of it, they're telling them to provide whatever they do.
And if they had investigated just 2 minutes beforhand, they would have known that there is no useful information stored, it is all explained on the website...
@@deineroehre Regardless, taking a company's word for what they may or may not store would be stupid.
I swear, California is like the teacher that'd walk past a fight to tell someone to spit some gum out.
The FBI is not a part of California. It says Central district of California on it because that it the organization that the FBI must work through to get this sort of information. The FBI sidestepping the court and asking directly would be an unusual use of federal power and may be viewed as an overstep. If the court of California were to refuse to make this subpoena that would almost certainly be viewed as an overreach of state power to refuse such a direct request from the federal government
California is America's cesspool.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo I feel like the whole of the USA is a cesspool
@@danielteuma311 not wrong, but calif is the sludge inside that cesspool
@@kusada3035 tl;dr while I tend to agree with most of what gets preached over here, everyone needs to fucking chill.
I feel like california is about as much of a cesspool as anywhere else, but the people here are the ones who tend to complain about it the most and often times the loudest. the way I see it is that we got molehill problems. granted, molehills are definitely problems that genuinely warrant action, but a lot of people here act like they're dealing with mountains. they're not wrong for wanting to take action, but they act like it's the end of world as we know it sometimes. it's annoying as fuck and dilutes whatever positive message or outcome that could have resulted.
I like this channel because it reminds me that I'm not the only person left in the world who cares about privacy.
Talking about that, don't use telegram.
The other day someone "related" to a random weeb group I was got murdered, no clue since it was just some stupid weeb group; my account related chats and any weeb group I was got wiped clean; and I mean, everything, private conversations, everyone who was a weeb... only few non-weeb people were left.
Can't say why, but no doubt someone messed up with those records with certain criteria at telegram side.
Either way that's terrible security.
Exact reason I just subscribed
@@egonzalez4294 You're making a lot of jumps without any real proof. This being said, I haven't heard good things about Telegram.
@@egonzalez4294 don't believeit
@@Gandhi_Physique Well they're better than whatsapp, and family members know that
Chad Signal vs virgin WhatsApp
Signal male
@@som10812 laghed out loud, cheers
Signal Grindset
@@som10812 lmfao
@@som10812 lol
I’m actually floored that the ACLU is helping Signal. The ACLU seems to have chosen sides over the past couple of decades, not generally the side of freedom.
How so? They seem to pretty consistently fight for freedom. The aclu, institute of Justice, eff, and a few others consistently fight for principled stances, but the indoctrinated don't like it when that freedom comes at the expense of the partisan issues they've been programmed to hate on.
*_but how do we make money without tracking and advertising to people?_*
Signal: _Simple. Don't make it about the money, and keep your app small and refuse to add a bunch of junior developers that don't really get paid to do anything but sit in meetings all day._
But it is about money, you dont get to choice. It costs money to run compute, it costs money to use bandwidth. Signal will be gone in a few years, due to not being able to maintain costs, or they make money off you.
And trust me, they not going anywhere.
@@draken5379 if you keep that client-to- client-side... not really.
@@draken5379 they accept donations though
They collect user data and sell it to 3rd parties. Either that or they are entirely financed by certain 3-letter organizations.
@@installshieldwizard3017 how do you feel I'd rather use the terminal over you?
I knew Signal was MVP but god damn, 3 letter bois got pwned hard again.
rip tiny hat people
I'm sure WhatsApp also claims somewhere on some website that they have "state of the art encryption" but they'd be able to provide all the information the court asked for and probably a lot more too.
Signal on the other hand doesn't just claim something, they prove it with their open sourced code.
@@NonsenseNinja Really? Can you show me on the source code of WhatsApp exactly where the encryption is coded to be end to end with no backdoors or (lizard)man in the middle?
If you can't prove it with the source code, you're just talking out of your arse.
@@NonsenseNinja even assuming that's true whatsapp's source code could've and most likely was altered
WhatsApp was good before Facebook came in
@@a1phamalestud WhatsApp tried to take over my phone. I couldn't even delete or force stop the app until I turned on maximum battery saver and turned off my data. Then I was able to use Google file to delete that crap WhatsApp.
@Aapo Lehtinen That is one step above my current level of conspiracy paranoia.
As a librarian who actually gives a shit about protecting patron privacy (lots of people are rightfully frustrated with being tracked and don't want the government to have access to their personal data) this is great to see. I've used signal for a while, but it's nice to see some proof that they are doing as they claim
The government is the people, the people should have access to the peoples data.
@@Prsop554 The government is not the people anymore, the government are evil shills taking advantage of the people, who do not deserve your data. You sound like a fed.
@@Prsop554 the government is no longer the people. It's government vs the people nowadays.
@@Bromon655 the government never was the people
@@Prsop554enjoying the taste of that boot?
"All of your guns, All of your tanks, All of this power and authority that you think you have; is not more powerful than math" epic smart guy beating the big bully moment
What? If the government wanted they could just introduce legislation/regulations, mandating that certain types of companies store certain data. Signal would promptly either stop being in the US, or theyd comply with new regulations like 100% of businesses in the US.
@@greed864 I love Telegram for this very reason.
@@greed864 Well then the users could encrypt their stuff themselves. If they're really serious about privacy, in principle they don't need a middle man amyway. With that being said, screw any kind of government that mandates data collection to companies: sounds like a bad case of fascism.
@@greed864 Im proud to be an american where at least i know im free
@@scrung And I won't forget the men who died who gave that life to me!
The sarcasm is soothing to my soul
Your profile picture and your nickname doubles down the sarcasm
That name is nuts!
You're one of my only sources for news like this, so thank you for doing stuff like this!
he is such a legend
This is so true.
Commonfilth
highly recommend seytonic as well
@@zach2830 Seytonic is good for cybersecurity news, but he's not as based as Mental Outlaw. I don't only need the news, I need solutions.
It's best to give the dates in the form in which they are stored, i.e. unix milliseconds. That way nobody can accuse them of providing incomplete or altered information.
I just realized this is basically counts as an ad
and i love it
That's right, you don't give glowies your info, you run them over with your car, like a wise man once said.
Terry Davis?
@@sontapaa11jokulainen94 yes
@@sontapaa11jokulainen94 the one and only
My boy Terry
Thats what you do
It's a boilerplate subpoena, which means almost every other app they send one to is collecting all that juicy, juicy data. Click-stream GO!
It seems like Mental Outlaw doesn't understand what boilerplate is
This man really just read the entire subpoena except for the two words, "if available". Lmao, they aren't idiots who don't know what Signal is, they just ask for everything so that they get everything.
I wouldn't be surprised if after this the alfabeto Bois would legally require companies to collect private information from its users if they want to operate within US borders. "Land of the free" brothers yeeeha
(Granted most of them already do cuz selling your info is essentially free money, but those who truly care about privacy will not stand a chance which is overall sad)
they already kinda expect websites to do this already. its only a matter of time before every site has to comply with a "citizen internet protection and anti-cybercrime initiative act" law that makes the #1 selling point of these apps and sites moot.
@@umamifan You need to understand and remember that even if that became the case, there will still be a million other ways people could go about protecting their lives and privacy. It’s trivial to setup your own servers to host messaging clients, and where you do that, on who’s network, and what steps or prerequisites are involved to connect to such configurations are basically endless, sufficing to say this will be a non-issue for those who want it bad enough, and just a very rude and crude human rights issue for the rest of society going forward...
@@MikeOxlong- Until they forbid any self hosted encrypted messaging platforms, block any non-us hosted platforms and ban VPNs. (AKA China 2.0) :D
@@ivailogeimara Not gonna happen. That cat was let out of the bag far too many years ago...
You may not understand it, but the internet as you know it literally comprises only a mere 3-4% of what it actually entails at any one given time. There are so many other protocols and platforms that run over the copper (or light) and at different frequencies or wavelengths that are completely invisible to standard routing technology that it’d make your head explode if you knew what they all were, how they worked, and what the mean for communications. And in the future this will only progress, unless society as a whole regresses completely...
@@MikeOxlong- thanks a lot for reassurances, means a lot. 😇😇
*Burning house with kids inside*
Public: Isn't that illegal?
FBI: It's national security Karen!
Pretty sure it was the ATF that did that
Yeah that sounds like what signal users would plan
@@ShinyMajor Yep, using the barrel of a tank as a giant straw to pour the gasoline through the wall in spite of the prying eyes of the media.
@@0megazeero you mean "t3rr0rists"? That's not even proper 1337
@@ShinyMajor The FBI have had houses "mysteriously" burn down while they were investigating the home owners.
Imagine the feds thinking "is this Unix thing a drug?" lol.
I bet they had to do a Bing search like “is Unix time real?” To start getting to the bottom of it 🤣
The FBI relies on Linux, a modified fork of UNIX. Soo ig they know, because some shit like windows won't be able to handle the tasks which they do.
@@anonymouscyborg5610 Most feds use Windows for a reason.
@@anonymouscyborg5610 you'd think so. But you'd also stink that they can Google and read yet they still sent this letter
hey! its a long time since i saw you. Did you and alyx helped humanity to recover yet? since the supression field is down for quite a time now.
"Your honor, as you can see here, Anon rated Signal with five stars, stating the following: "Good shit". This very clearly shows intent, and is why i think Anon should be thrown under the jail."
The feds are Fake and Gay.
Usually but not always i think.
@@fireredtheredfire1050 You forgot that they glow in the dark.
@@DarkVeghetta lmao yeah
under the jail? damn, i thought being thrown in jail was bad enough, but under it is pretty harsh
What an odd subjective experience that would be... getting thrown under a jail
Is there like a pocket dimension under there? Do they shrink you down? Or are you just violently stuffed underneath, like some twisted death penalty
Asking the real questions tonight...
4:50 The list of demands isn't inept or arbitrary. Once Signal can't provide most of that, the feds will likely try to compel Signal (and similar apps) going forth to comply with Know Your Customer law, under some minutia of the wording of that law, even though Signal isn't Fintech.
And by Know Your Customer they probably mean track the living wazoo out of them
3:30 No, they don't seriously think that. They cast the widest net possible _just in case_ that information, for whatever insane reason, _is_ available. That's because if they don't do it with the initial subpoena going back later to get even more evidence is a serious pain-in-the-ass. Government is excellent at bureaucracy.
Scary part is that facebook would probably be able to give them 90% of what they asked for
No , probably 150% , it will probably include your parents and dead grandparents info+ blood type, DNA test , favorite anime, food , p*rn also your first word , and more 😂
In the edit history of the subpeona pdf, there's probably a "change [Meta Inc] to [Signal Inc]" comment somewhere.
@@m_elite that's right. since algorithms can predict behaviors you don't even knew, based off your habits, they'd really provide more than 100% of the user's input.
Even scarier is that not WILL they do so, but they will do so without a protest (maybe a make-believe protest in public, but in reality just do it).
"You just run them over. That's what you do. " ~ Terry A Davis
💀💀💀
They glow in the dark
You can see them when you're driving
Fuck glow-in-the-dark CIA enwurds
TempleOS is still the most secure OS ever. It was programmed by God himself after all.
Does the FBI even realize that not every tech company doesn’t siphon information from their users like it’s candy?
Facebook: here's phone, friends, job, bills, posts, call history, etc.
Signal: hashed phone, take it or leave it
Of course they didn't, signal is an outlier amongst exceptions
This looks like an app that I would definitely feel comfortable using. And it's so refreshing to see a company actually protecting people's privacy
Ikr, Foss forever.
Less of a inept, more just shotguning the demands and seeing what sticks
Kinda like how job hiring requirements list stuff like; 15 years expiriance, and 10 different degrees for a "Entry level Position", even for janitors XD
@@UNSCPILOT In the case of job descriptions, unrealistic requirement lists is inept. Makes it impossible for applicants to self select for what jobs they're actually qualified for.
Mental outlaw godlike upload schedule
Signal’s Records Officer must be a sweet job: a little less busy than the Maytag repair guy. Plus, for that sweet company trip to Californiastan, he probably only had to pack his court-shirt and an empty manilla folder.
I refused to KYC at coinbase because they literally wanted my employment history and exactly where and when and how I acquired my funds. You should do a vid on that glowy entity.
The wonders of KYC. It's all for your own good, only criminals need privacy. You aren't a criminal, are you?
@@MrEdrftgyuji talks like ccp
I've been considering an account at coinbase. You just presented a strong argument against. But are any of the other crypto exchanges supporting fiat legal tender any better?
Honestly, I thought that KYC only required a valid ID. Even banks don't ask for your employment history and how you get funds, unless you have over 10,000 dollars or so.
based off of the replies in this section i can clearly see that NO ONE can see sarcasm anymore
Reminds me of a recent story with Telegram except FSB requested decryption keys and recieved a pair of rusty iron keys along with a letter explainig "that's the best we have".
Meme or legit?
@@plm-fp6nu Legit
@@penggrin damn
@@penggrin Sauce?
Regarding the phone number: As you already mentioned, Signal probably only stores a hashed version of it in their system (which is referred to as "Account" in the response table). Given the phone number provided by the FBI the hash can be easily calculated but not the other way round.
Nothing makes me want to use signal more than knowing they don’t even have the data that the FBI considers standard operating procedure. Why does Facebook need to track my “correspondence”
I love how Signal has information that isn't even that useful to begin with in 99% of cases.
Like what are they even gonna do with when this person logged into signal huh? XD
Actually is the server crashes, and an idiot user is behind that, you can see what profile requested to the server when it crashes. It's an hypothetical case, but it's valid.
@@talkysassis well, 1% I guess.
@@talkysassis nope even then you couldn't, Signal uses a secure enclave on their server, basically like reverse DRM, all information sent from users can only be interacted with by signal's open source code. Even the OS Kernel cannot access it
@@GlenMerlin That's not what I said. I said that this information is relevant to the server log.
This way you can see when the server have more workload as a more realistic case.
crossing data with mobile carriers, who are without a doubt the first whistleblowers for feds and drug cartels.
I just donated to signal and now I hear this beautiful thing. It was worth every penny. Keep up the God's work signal devs!
Since this is a court order made at the request of the FBI, and not by the FBI itself, it's probably good that Signal didn't troll the court any more than just providing the dates in Unix timestamp format. We don't want them to be held in contempt, fined, or end up on the shitlist of a judge that may one day preside over an unrelated proceeding of theirs in the future. (That last one is important: If the FBI decides they want to compel Signal to put some backdoors in, it's up to the court to reign them in.)
So the government compelling a company to compromise something they have created is in essence compelled speech, and thats a big fat first amendment no no. So yes, the gold rule of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" when dealing with a federal judge applys here. No federal judge in the country would let that happen, regardless of who the subject of the investigation was.
@@MorRobots No speech involved here, compelled or otherwise.
@@CFSworks sorry I should have clarified, if they were told to compromise the platform/app. They can offer to do so, but they can't be compelled to do so.
@@MorRobots Ah I see. But that still wouldn't be compelled speech. It might be a violation of 4A rights, but not 1A. The most relevant law that might enable this, the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, has never been challenged on 1A grounds.
@@CFSworks so search for: Being Forced to Code in the Technology Era as a Violation of the Being Forced to Code in the Technology Era as a Violation of the First Amendment Protection Against Compelled Speech First Amendment Protection Against Compelled Speech
By
Adrianna Oddo
It's a solid, and well cited legal opinion on the goverment (DoJ, via FBI) on compelling a company to alter code they authored and it being a first amendment violation. Remeber Speech is a broad term here.
How do we know that they’re not controlling Signal?
did you even watch the video? "controlling" signal doesnt give you any control because everything is encrypted
@@modz7675 according to signal. Maybe this entire thing is just a law PR stunt to get you into signal?? Hmm
look at the code since it's open source
@@balala7567 ooo good idea
@@balala7567 can you really know if the binary was compiled from the source code provided if you didn't compile it?
The subpoena request is a bog standard request that the Feds send out to pretty much any company whenever they request information. I have had to process a few of these myself, and they mostly look the same. Although some requests (mostly from state/local govts) will be very narrow (eg. emails relating to a specific user/domain only and nothing else, or only relating to access information -- eg log files), most of the time they just expect you to send whatever you have or the intent is communicated outside of the formal subpeona (eg. via email). Whenever I have had to process these I just dump everything into a tarball and let them sort through it. lol
:)🌙🌜
One of the reasons for sending the time as UNIX time can be the fact that the data is stored that way. So you can't be punished for manipulating the data as that is the way they were stored in your database
Since every important Server in the Internet runs on Linux anyways, the storing with Unixtimestamp is absolutely logical. You can later do the math and convert to a human readable normal DD.MM.YYYY, if needed. If you would store in other formats, you would have to store the information on timezone and daylight saving time.
The same feds that couldn't figure out how to crack an iphone despite John McAfee telling them how to, live, on air, on RT.
sauce?
John McAfee? You mean that guy who said that iOS is part of your iPhone’s instruction set? I'd take anything this guy said about computer science with a large grain of salt to be honest.
@@ThePC007 yeah, the "explanation" that McAfee gave assumed that the password to an iPhone was stored on it locally, unencrypted. Obviously, that is not the case, but people believe what they want to.
Tried to set up an account. Verification message never came thru. Hmm, wonder if the establishment decided to disallow it now
They might start to force signal servers to collect all data they do see, like the IP Addresses and all the time stamps.
Then just move the servers to another country. The FBI has no authority outside the US.
Almost every country mandates collecting logs like IP address. Doesn't matter if your company's HQ or servers aren't there.
It's open source though. If that happens everyone will see it and spread the word, and someone will fork it, and that's it. The FBI would be chasing its own tail.
@@talkysassis No, the answer then is to make it peer-to-peer. You can't regulate servers that don't exist.
@@jan_Kapije How do you do anything without being exposed to the internet? You realize the client-server model uses the internet too, right?
The result will be legislation requiring any communications app developer to require all that information in order to grant an account.
Which, of course, will result in a user-developed blockchain communications solution.
Like IRC but decentralized?
"user developed blockchain solution"
You can't just add the word blockchain and assume it's some magic black box that solves any and all of the world problem. 🙊
Shit I might just start a blockchain food and water company and try and trick people into funding me.
Loki messenger/Sesssion? You could also go full p2p like the tox protocol
@@svampebob007 you should add the words "crypto" and "technology" as well, to catch different levels of tech investors.
@@o.sunsfamily and some NFT to throw into our literal liquid pools 👍
Anybody who wants inn the ICO this is your chance!
Messing with feds is an obligation.
More like a duty lol.
@@WhiteFox-ce8ep Do you know the meaning of "obligation"?
@@Jupiter__001_ Yes, but I think duty sounds better. My opinion
@@WhiteFox-ce8ep "More like" implies that "duty" is somehow more accurate than "obligation". "I prefer duty" would be more appropriate than "More like a duty". In any case, this is all totally irrelevant.
"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty." - Thomas Jefferson
Good to see that some level of digital privacy and freedom is still being made possible by people around the world.
Seems that lately I’ve seen more and more people, both private and corporate, realizing that this status quo is ripe for change and they’re taking steps to be at the forefront of that change.
It’ll be a terrifyingly brave new world, but I think I’ll take that over our current stagnation.
This inspires me, from now on I'll store all my unix millis timestamps in Base-27 so I can mock the feds.
My wife and I have our wedding date stamped into our rings in unix millis. Not sure what that says about us...
The standard subpoena language used is just that, standard. They all say "You are commanded" that is how subpoenas work. They can be issued by defendant's attorneys too. It allows them to secure exculpatory evidence and witnesses as well.
This is a better messaging service ad than anything I have ever seen before. Congrats.
*you are the only reason why I still open youtube*
Hes also on odysee
The problem with signal, is I could never get my friends or family to use it too, so it was pointless. End to End encryption is a two way street than the normies don't want to walk on.
Wow you got friends? Lucky
It's simple, really. Stop communicating with them on any other untrusted platform. If you actually care about your privacy, that's the only choice you have.
To be clear, I'm not saying that will get them to use Signal, just that it's the option you have to keep/take back a little of your privacy.
First of all 95% of you have nobody to text, and second of all, the only privacy concerns you have is people finding out your hentai addiction, which your ISP already knows about.
@@ararune3734 😂😂😂 Savage
@@ararune3734 Bit random but ok
Reason that they sent their subpoena with as much specific shit requested as they did, was so that if signal was holding any of that at all they couldn’t withhold it. It’s kinda on the requester to make sure that they request as much as possible, so they throw shit at the wall to see what sticks. It’s not inept law enforcement, it’s the way the law works.
The FBI's letter is no doubt repeat use and for all cases. A saying I grew up with is "you don't know if you don't ask" and this is exactly what this is.
Regarding the timestamps: they didn't troll anyone. That is the actual data they have, unprocessed. And the legal request had to include all that, regardless of what Signal claims - it's not because of stupidity on their part (although it doesn't forgo the idea either)
I mean I dont think the feds we’re expecting all of those boxes to be checked (hence the “if available”) but it’s pretty hilarious how little they had to provide
100 points for just dumping the raw unix time in their responce
Not just a raw unix, a raw unix mils
They legally couldn't do it any other way. They have to provide the data unaltered. They have to give it as they have it, and as it happens they have it very inconveniently.
@@duddude321 If ever there was malicious compliance 😁
@@duddude321 Can you point to the law requiring that? Because it was altered: they represented it as decimal, not binary.
My FBI agent has never asked me how I'm doing, so we're breaking up! >:(
Aww, I’m so sorry :(
"... They might just go to your house and burn it down with you and your kids inside." Wow, it's these subtle things that make your videos funny. I like the reference to Waco.
"Why are they asking for these things when signal doesn't have that type of information?"
Because they have a template word document and they just change the name of the person and the app
I've felt confident in signal for awhile, but now I'm definitely going to push it on my friends and family. Glad to see this!!!
If more people follow your lead, the world will be a better place 😎
The guys running signal reading this request probably contains the biggest smirk ever made.
0:15 how can WhatsApp use a forked version of signal? Isn’t signal published under the GPL? wouldn’t WhatsApp be required to be open source by the license?
+1
Not sure if it's GPL, but it doesn't actually matter, to get some funds Signal actually worked with the WhatsApp team to implement the signal protocol, so they probably made an exception for Whatsapp to use the protocol current snapshot outside the license if something like that was actually needed.
It could just be WhatsApp giving signal a royalty for using their code
Facebook could have simply negotiated a deal with the rights holders to use the code outside of the terms of the GPL.
WhatsApp only uses the signal protocol for exchanging messages. It isn't a fork of the Signal application itself.
That's a pretty standard federal subpoena. Law enforcement typically just makes several versions of the same subpoena and changes out relevant info like company name and address then sends them out to all target companies.
When someone put YOU ARE COMMANDED in their letter for a subpoena I can't take them seriously and can only assume they have anterior motives. They letter just screams REEEEEEEEEE
In other words, laziness won.
@@niclikescakesI mean it's better to cover all your bases. If they don't have the data you ask for, they'll tell you that they don't have it. If you don't ask for it, they don't give it to you. CYA, and it's not worth the effort to research what data they actually maintain when you can issue a catch all
@@BryanLu0 That isn't what is going on here, though. It's just laziness.
@@niclikescakes Wym, it's boilerplate they send to all companies. That's why it says "if applicable" It's much more waste of time to research every single application on their phone and what information they have. The sooner they get the information the sooner they can make their case. It doesn't particularly matter that they have no information, and the case will go on
0:16 this is the scariest thing I’ve seen this Halloween season, imagine that face peering through your window as you’re about to go to sleep.
5 years later come to find out that Signal is ran by a Security agency and this was just part of their plan to convince you to use it lol
@@kennygaming208 It's open-source, so probably everyone that ever worked on it.
Why isn’t anybody else covering this REALLY important information? This is solid evidence that Signal does exactly as they say. I love it! This is the reason why I use Signal every day and donate every year!
Lol your profile picture had REALLY not aged well
just bing it losers
Meanwhile me using Matrix: what's a centralised communication platform?
wonder how bad matrix's metadata is
I hear it's worse than signal
where as SESSION is best, even better than signal metadata wise
That is clearly a catch all user data subpoena. I think that makes this worse. The court is requiring they turn over as much user data as possible for them to decide if it was linked with a crime despite most of that stuff not being relevant. A well written subpoena detailing what information they are requesting that was application specific would at least show they put thought into it but they are just firing off subpoenas to get as much information as possible likely trying to avoid dealing with the 4th amendment.
This is bullshit !! Session is the way to go. Session doesn't need your email or phone number. Its decentralized !
-FBI:Is that a far-right group chat in your phone?
-Me: Wouldn't you like to know fedboy.
Turn it off and say, Good Luck Cellebriting that BFU Motherfu-
I love it when these smaller corporations troll the government like this.
Not a corporation
@@Zimx02 Correct! They are a 503c charity.
Not a corporation, if they were then they'd be arms of the state or some variation of a union. Just a private company that respects basic freedoms and privacy.
Reminds me of GDPR in EU - they care so much about privacy that every company must comply to the rules... except the state. According to GDPR the state can still spy on their citizens on demand.
Heven forbid companies send people junk mail. But we can still send goons round your house at 3am because you wrote a crude tweet to one of our politicians.
@@MrEdrftgyuji State is always like that.
Always was and always be. That's what they are - an authority. They can't be "friendly".
@@MrEdrftgyuji ah yes, the magic country of the UK.
I am not surprised by that because in the end, most of European countries still have some terms in their law that trace back to where monarchy is a thing (and have reserved power), and thus reserved some right for the state. I am just surprised that the US, the land of free, is heading to their privacy law toward the EU.
@@Gareth1892000 the US were never free. Some countries in the eu are more free than what they appear.
I just hope the guy using their site and getting in trouble isn't a predator or using it for criminal means.
I love the goodmorning jokes in every video
Good morning messages aren't a joke, they are integral to having a good and productive day.
@@MentalOutlaw based and goodmorningpilled
Pissing off a judge is almost never a good idea.
I think Snowden's email provider was forced to release an encryption key or something of the sort, and they submitted it printed out in 4-point font. It didn't help, just enraged the judge.
I think they get away with giving the dates in unix millis because that's how the data is actually stored. But if they had actively made it more obscure, the judge would have made many things more strenuous for them.
Judges think they are gods
Yeah, they'd probably be charged with contempt of court, and like, why bother with that hassle.
That’s the format the data was stored in, so legally they had to provide it in that format. Changing the format opens the data to further modification.
@@pretzelbomb6105 This doesn't really make much sense. Please define "the format that data is stored in". Unix timestamp? Binary? Magnetic fields on a hard disk? All 3 of them can qualify.
@@andreimiga8101 they have a database and its probably stored as a number
The idea at 4:55 isn't entirely so much as being inept, though it largely is, but the idea that they can attempt to extort as much information that they think they can scrape from companies to the exact maximum quantity to the letter that the law provides "legitimately" to these law enforcement agencies. The thing is that these types of companies have gotten a lot smarter and just simply don't collect any of it so there's nothing of legitimate value in the process to give up. It doesn't matter if it's actually impossible because even in the most obscure off chance that they actually accidentally DID collect any of this relevant information but failed to provide it, they can use it as a legal excuse to push garbage criminal/civil charges against the company to have them taken down in the process too.
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