(2*) What value of X does the copy have? What modes does it have? Support Judging FtW on Patreon at / judgingftw Suggest a question: forms.gle/YTK2... A: Same as the original
Agreed. One of my favorite ways 'around' it was in a Gandalf of the Secret Fire deck (when you cast an instant or sorcery on an opponents turn, suspend it with 3 time counters). All of the counterspells I ran in that deck were modal so that I could gain the benefits of choosing a different mode when I cast it at a later turn.
2:52 it’s also interesting to note here that even if Ivy’s ability allowed the original target(s) to remain unchanged, it still wouldn’t work Both spells would target Grizzly Bears, but the second spell to resolve would “fizzle” for having no legal targets, assuming the first one successfully unsummoned the Grizzly Bears (since the last mode just says “draw a card” and not “target player draws a card” - the creature was the only target chosen)
I've recently had to find out how copying spells like Avacyn's Judgment (which has been cast for its madness cost) works. When the spell says "It deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of targets"
As far as i know any changes made to a spell on cast by effects like modes, entwine, kicker, and overload, but effects that modify the spell based on how you cast are not copied like sunburst and converge
for spells with multiple targets, is choosing new targets an all or nothing deal? or can you choose some new targets and leave some? for example, say Nick casts Decimate, but the only creature on the battlefield is his own Slippery Bogle. He targets his own bogle and an artifact, enchantment and land of Amy. If Amy copies Decimate, she is unable to choose all new targets. Is she required to keep the original targets?
This ruling for Cloven Casting says you can change any number and only the new targets must be legal. "The copy will have the same targets as the spell it’s copying unless you choose new ones. You may change any number of the targets, including all of them or none of them. The new targets must be legal."
In the case of Nick copying a spell that targets an opponent's creature, he would target Amy's creature with his copy correct? He wouldn't have to target his own?
You're allowed to copy a spell without changing the target even if the targets are illegal (but the spell may/will fizzle). If he changes the target it has to be a legal target
Question: Does Realms Uncharted trigger the first ability of Desert Warfare? What "zone" are those cards in as they're being revealed to your opponent? Thank you!
Somewhat related to this (regarding illegal targeting) : what happens when an opponents copies a spell that specifies legal targets (for example, chandra’s ignition) can he choose not to change a target (i.e the target is a creature he does not control) and does the spell resolve then?
You can always choose to not change the targets of the spell (even if the current ones are illegal), but it might cause it to fizzle of they are still illegal on resolution. New targets must be legal. The game gives this option just in case there aren't any other legal targets to change it to. 115.7d: If an effect allows a player to "choose new targets" for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.
Judge! If I have the emblem from the new Capitoline Triad and activate my Inkmoth Nexus, how big is it? This has sparked a bit of debate in my discord. We can’t determine if the Triad emblem is dependent on the Inkmoth ability, or if it’s just two 7b layer effects in timestamp order.
I do believe it is based on timestamps, not dependency. Similar to the way the opalessence/humility interaction sets their p/t. So it will only be a 9/9 if the emblem came in after the animation ability resolved.
My question is if I have a card ciphered onto my grizzly bear and my roaming throne naming bear will the spell ciphered on copy twice or once on combat damage
Due to this ruling on hidden strings, it seems like cipher grants a trigger to the creature meaning that Roaming Throne should be able to copy it. "The exiled card with cipher grants a triggered ability to the creature it’s encoded on. If that creature loses that ability and subsequently deals combat damage to a player, the triggered ability won’t trigger. However, the exiled card will continue to be encoded on that creature."
What happens, If I cast delayed blast Fireball from exile. And Tagen Copy it. Would IT Deal twice 5 damage, since the mode ist copied top? Or dies the copy 3 damage since IT isnt Cast from exile ...? Im confused...
Since you never cast the copy in the first place, you won't get the extra damage. Here's a ruling on Apex of Power which has a similar effect: "If an effect copies Apex of Power, the copy wasn't cast at all, so you won't add ten mana."
What if you cast a copy? Which rule do you follow, and what's the reasoning? Edit: I know the answer is X is 0, but I want to know why that rule takes precedence.
X is only 0 if you don't pay the mana cost. Cards that let you cast the copy will generally only do so when the spell isn't on the stack (Isochron Scepter does so from exile, Reversal of Fortune does it from an opponent's hand, Spellweaver Volute does so from a graveyard). If the card just says "you may cast the copy", like Demilich, then you follow the normal rules for casting a spell (in which case you choose whatever X value you want to pay for). If it says "you may cast the copy without paying it's mana cost", like Isochron Scepter, then you follow the rules for casting a spell without paying it's mana cost (in which case Xs in the cost will be 0).
When you cast a spell (even if it's a copy), that's when you make most of the choices for a spell, such as values of X or choosing modes or alternate costs - so the original spell's choices don't matter.... if it even had any. Most of the time, if you're directed to "cast a copy", it's because the original spell wasn't on the stack - you're using an effect that copies it from exile or something, so there aren't any pre-existing choices to copy. You only copy a spell directly onto the stack if the original was cast (as a random example, Magus Lucia Kane copies an X spell when you cast the X spell, so it was just put on the stack when you're directed to copy it, so it already has an X value assigned it can copy).
With Void you choose a number upon spell resolution, so you can choose different numbers for each player since it’s not a value declared upon casting like a mode or X value is. The following is from Void’s Gatherer page: “The target player is chosen as you announce Void, but the number isn't chosen until it's resolving. No player may choose to take actions between you choosing a number and the rest of Void's effects.”
That's actually incorrect. When you copy a spell, you copy all the choices that were made when the spell was cast, but once the copy is created, it's an independent spell from the original. The choice of a number is made while Void resolves, so there's no problem with picking a different number for each player.
I understand why this exists but I always feel bad having to tell people this rule since it's very unintuitive and sounds like I'm making things up
Agreed. One of my favorite ways 'around' it was in a Gandalf of the Secret Fire deck (when you cast an instant or sorcery on an opponents turn, suspend it with 3 time counters). All of the counterspells I ran in that deck were modal so that I could gain the benefits of choosing a different mode when I cast it at a later turn.
Oops, I've definitely been turning Mob Rule into Insurrection with Double Vision before now
2:52 it’s also interesting to note here that even if Ivy’s ability allowed the original target(s) to remain unchanged, it still wouldn’t work
Both spells would target Grizzly Bears, but the second spell to resolve would “fizzle” for having no legal targets, assuming the first one successfully unsummoned the Grizzly Bears (since the last mode just says “draw a card” and not “target player draws a card” - the creature was the only target chosen)
I've recently had to find out how copying spells like Avacyn's Judgment (which has been cast for its madness cost) works. When the spell says "It deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of targets"
You know you're old when you know cryptic command is coming 😂
Remember, reading Textless Cryptic Command EXPLAINS Textless Cryptic Command
Learned something...I had thought X would be 0 for the copy. Thanks for a great DDR today!
Great video Judge Dave!
This channel is amazing. 😍
As far as i know any changes made to a spell on cast by effects like modes, entwine, kicker, and overload, but effects that modify the spell based on how you cast are not copied like sunburst and converge
for spells with multiple targets, is choosing new targets an all or nothing deal? or can you choose some new targets and leave some? for example, say Nick casts Decimate, but the only creature on the battlefield is his own Slippery Bogle. He targets his own bogle and an artifact, enchantment and land of Amy. If Amy copies Decimate, she is unable to choose all new targets. Is she required to keep the original targets?
This ruling for Cloven Casting says you can change any number and only the new targets must be legal.
"The copy will have the same targets as the spell it’s copying unless you choose new ones. You may change any number of the targets, including all of them or none of them. The new targets must be legal."
Same modes, same X, but targets can be changed
In the case of Nick copying a spell that targets an opponent's creature, he would target Amy's creature with his copy correct? He wouldn't have to target his own?
"target creature an opponent controls" refers to opponents of the spell's controller and if you create a copy of a spell, you control the copy.
You're allowed to copy a spell without changing the target even if the targets are illegal (but the spell may/will fizzle).
If he changes the target it has to be a legal target
Question: Does Realms Uncharted trigger the first ability of Desert Warfare? What "zone" are those cards in as they're being revealed to your opponent? Thank you!
Since it hasn't told you to move them to another zone yet, they are still in your library until you move them to hand or graveyard.
Somewhat related to this (regarding illegal targeting) : what happens when an opponents copies a spell that specifies legal targets (for example, chandra’s ignition) can he choose not to change a target (i.e the target is a creature he does not control) and does the spell resolve then?
You can always choose to not change the targets of the spell (even if the current ones are illegal), but it might cause it to fizzle of they are still illegal on resolution. New targets must be legal. The game gives this option just in case there aren't any other legal targets to change it to.
115.7d: If an effect allows a player to "choose new targets" for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.
I was forced to flare of duplication the kozilek command and X wasn't enough for his creature :(
Judge!
If I have the emblem from the new Capitoline Triad and activate my Inkmoth Nexus, how big is it?
This has sparked a bit of debate in my discord. We can’t determine if the Triad emblem is dependent on the Inkmoth ability, or if it’s just two 7b layer effects in timestamp order.
I do believe it is based on timestamps, not dependency. Similar to the way the opalessence/humility interaction sets their p/t. So it will only be a 9/9 if the emblem came in after the animation ability resolved.
My question is if I have a card ciphered onto my grizzly bear and my roaming throne naming bear will the spell ciphered on copy twice or once on combat damage
Due to this ruling on hidden strings, it seems like cipher grants a trigger to the creature meaning that Roaming Throne should be able to copy it.
"The exiled card with cipher grants a triggered ability to the creature it’s encoded on. If that creature loses that ability and subsequently deals combat damage to a player, the triggered ability won’t trigger. However, the exiled card will continue to be encoded on that creature."
Yes, Cipher grants a triggered ability to the Grizzly Bears which is doubled by Roaming Throne (CR 702.99a).
What happens, If I cast delayed blast Fireball from exile. And Tagen Copy it. Would IT Deal twice 5 damage, since the mode ist copied top? Or dies the copy 3 damage since IT isnt Cast from exile ...? Im confused...
Since you never cast the copy in the first place, you won't get the extra damage. Here's a ruling on Apex of Power which has a similar effect:
"If an effect copies Apex of Power, the copy wasn't cast at all, so you won't add ten mana."
The spell is cast with X as it has the same X when casting.
Well importantly, its not "cast" at all. Its simply put on the stack as a copy of the first spell.
What if you cast a copy? Which rule do you follow, and what's the reasoning?
Edit: I know the answer is X is 0, but I want to know why that rule takes precedence.
X is only 0 if you don't pay the mana cost.
Cards that let you cast the copy will generally only do so when the spell isn't on the stack (Isochron Scepter does so from exile, Reversal of Fortune does it from an opponent's hand, Spellweaver Volute does so from a graveyard). If the card just says "you may cast the copy", like Demilich, then you follow the normal rules for casting a spell (in which case you choose whatever X value you want to pay for). If it says "you may cast the copy without paying it's mana cost", like Isochron Scepter, then you follow the rules for casting a spell without paying it's mana cost (in which case Xs in the cost will be 0).
When you cast a spell (even if it's a copy), that's when you make most of the choices for a spell, such as values of X or choosing modes or alternate costs - so the original spell's choices don't matter.... if it even had any. Most of the time, if you're directed to "cast a copy", it's because the original spell wasn't on the stack - you're using an effect that copies it from exile or something, so there aren't any pre-existing choices to copy. You only copy a spell directly onto the stack if the original was cast (as a random example, Magus Lucia Kane copies an X spell when you cast the X spell, so it was just put on the stack when you're directed to copy it, so it already has an X value assigned it can copy).
You copy spells from the stack, or you copy *cards* and then cast the spell they represent. Never do you copy a spell and cast it at the same time.
This is why Void isn't AWESOME in Zevlor - you have to choose the same number for all opponents, instead of getting to pick and choose.
With Void you choose a number upon spell resolution, so you can choose different numbers for each player since it’s not a value declared upon casting like a mode or X value is.
The following is from Void’s Gatherer page:
“The target player is chosen as you announce Void, but the number isn't chosen until it's resolving. No player may choose to take actions between you choosing a number and the rest of Void's effects.”
That's actually incorrect. When you copy a spell, you copy all the choices that were made when the spell was cast, but once the copy is created, it's an independent spell from the original. The choice of a number is made while Void resolves, so there's no problem with picking a different number for each player.