Drill Bit Storage Tray

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2017
  • Making drill bit storage trays drawer inserts for all my drill bits. They are designed to fit in to my pillar drill cabinet drawers.
    In this video you can see how i made four different drill bit storage trays to maximise the organization of all my drill bits.
    This is a workshop organization project to organise drill bits.
    Please support my channel by subscribing, thanks!
    If you like the video then there is another way you can support the channel, use the Tip Jar below. All tips will go back into the materials and equipment for making more video content. Thanks for your support!
    Tip Jar : www.paypal.me/stuffimade
    Feel free to comment or ask questions, I try to answer everyone!
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    Music by: David Cutter Music - www.davidcuttermusic.co.uk
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ความคิดเห็น • 152

  • @thomashudson4611
    @thomashudson4611 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    After 5 years of different drill bit storage content on TH-cam , this is still one of the better designs.

  • @mor8266
    @mor8266 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Great project, thanks for not playing over bearing and distracting music during narration.

  • @Gungepup
    @Gungepup 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I really like this. I've been hunting for some drill bit storage ideas for awhile, and I think this is probably one of the best for me. My current problem is that I have two separate workspaces, and I don't always have two of everything in terms of drill bits and other tools, so there is some element of carrying them back and forth sometimes. Still, I think this would be the best way for me to get organized. Thanks for the inspiration, and for doing such a great job of showing your whole process!

  • @petercurtis9297
    @petercurtis9297 6 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Very nice, enjoyed the vid. You made it look simple. I'm sure when I give it a go I'll be covered in glue and have 80 degree corners.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Peter Curtis video editing saves the day ;)

  • @chezzapie
    @chezzapie 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks for the CA and wood glue combo. tip. I like the leather tab too. Nice job. 👍🏼

  • @BJ05YAYM15MYK
    @BJ05YAYM15MYK 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Enjoyed. Thorough competent and interesting.

  • @valerielevitt3016
    @valerielevitt3016 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    A work of art, thank you.

  • @garrysmythe
    @garrysmythe 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    great build, well presented too, no silly music in the background, just informative talking, thanks for posting from Garry in the UK

  • @oldrichkukacka416
    @oldrichkukacka416 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Jednoduché a velmi praktické se smyslem pro detail. Moc hezké video a pro mě veliká inspirace. Moc děkuji a přeji mnoho zdaru.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Oldřich Kukačka Moc děkuji

  • @denniswieting8259
    @denniswieting8259 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video! Clear and tidy.

  • @legrandeileen4863
    @legrandeileen4863 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    wow, and such a clean worker, Well done . great ideas, thanks

  • @seagnatprepper9613
    @seagnatprepper9613 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    very nice !! I'm going to take a lot of your ideas on this ... and make one similar .... thank you

  • @usedcarsokinawa
    @usedcarsokinawa ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Good idea of the leather tab

  • @cackleberryfarm4598
    @cackleberryfarm4598 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    that little jig you made for the Japanese saw is AWESOME!!!

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Cackleberry Farm thanks 😊

  • @billynolfe3621
    @billynolfe3621 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Good video. Thanks for sharing

  • @basher875
    @basher875 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Looking for storage ideas This is a brilliant way of storing your bits Love the cabinet

  • @eddimaio945
    @eddimaio945 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Well done, really enjoyed it. I have a ton of ideas on what I want to do with my bits now. Thanks

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Ed Di Maio nice to hear thanks!

  • @megeezer69
    @megeezer69 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent video, well paced & very informative

  • @framel44
    @framel44 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great stuff!! Making my own trays now, Thanks.
    Frank

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Frank M great stuff! Share pics on Instagram @stuffimadeuk ;)
      I'm making beans on toast right now ;)

  • @garrysmythe
    @garrysmythe 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    very good , as always , cheers. Garry from the UK

  • @paulbull1993
    @paulbull1993 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Beautiful job mate. 👍👍

  • @xylonguitars
    @xylonguitars 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    stellar work, as usual! well done and thank you for sharing.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Xylon Guitars thanks for saying so!

  • @ShopNation
    @ShopNation 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Beautiful cabinet work my friend! There is nothing quite like an organized shop - makes life a whole lot easier!

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Shop Nation very true!!! Thanks.

  • @astrakkoturutrais2185
    @astrakkoturutrais2185 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I love how this solutions look but I can avoid the feeling that you are losing half the space available. Beautifull.

  • @ursupator1
    @ursupator1 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great job.wow best job !!!!!

  • @JakeSpeed1000
    @JakeSpeed1000 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very nice.

  • @TomMakeHere
    @TomMakeHere 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video
    Love the organisation

  • @davelevy4394
    @davelevy4394 4 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    Great ideas, but I would make the dividers from much thinner wood to allow more room for storage.

    • @howyegettinon
      @howyegettinon 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      was gonna say same thing

    • @michael712020
      @michael712020 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      I agree, thinner spacer's would have had much more room

    • @MrLEO1353
      @MrLEO1353 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      First thing that I noticed...the dividers take up most of the room.

  • @wayneelmore3438
    @wayneelmore3438 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'm just a tiny bit jealous of your workshop -)

  • @JohnlynHD
    @JohnlynHD 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Great video. It’s what I want to make. Thanks

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Share yours on instagram if you do make one, would love to see it! @stuffimadeuk

  • @yehia2025
    @yehia2025 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Good job

  • @happydiver8540
    @happydiver8540 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Nice video and I have to admit, I may have to do the same for my insane bit collection soon.

  • @HumanBeingOnPlanet
    @HumanBeingOnPlanet 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Really enjoyed watching your video. Nice build, editing and narration. Cheers from Holland

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      BXL BXL thanks from England:)

  • @theguyver6397
    @theguyver6397 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Everything in its place! Awesome!

  • @edddiec
    @edddiec 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video - really enjoyed watching it

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Eddie Carroll thank you!

  • @wingsley
    @wingsley 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Nice fast-mo video. Great idea for storage. Did you ever draw up plans? A drawer-and-tray system that nice deserves at least an exterior paint job.

  • @HODYODesign
    @HODYODesign 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Good job!

  •  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very nice!

  • @desideriapez7779
    @desideriapez7779 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Buen trabajo, inspirador! Suscrito!

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Desideria Pez ¡muchas gracias!

  • @surreycountyfiddle
    @surreycountyfiddle 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great project and video style, reminds me of Frank Howarth, which is very much meant as a compliment. Cheers!

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      thanks! kind words!

  • @DiesInEveryFilm
    @DiesInEveryFilm 6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    That's brilliant I need to make myself one of these but probably never will unfortunately as I'm lazy but was nice to watch you make one 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

    • @mohammadaaron583
      @mohammadaaron583 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      i know Im randomly asking but does someone know a tool to get back into an Instagram account?
      I somehow lost my login password. I appreciate any assistance you can give me

    • @timothykenneth4925
      @timothykenneth4925 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Mohammad Aaron instablaster :)

    • @mohammadaaron583
      @mohammadaaron583 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Timothy Kenneth I really appreciate your reply. I found the site through google and Im trying it out atm.
      Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.

    • @mohammadaaron583
      @mohammadaaron583 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Timothy Kenneth It did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. Im so happy!
      Thank you so much, you really help me out!

    • @timothykenneth4925
      @timothykenneth4925 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Mohammad Aaron No problem =)

  • @MarcelDiane
    @MarcelDiane 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Nice neat job, I like it.

  • @Mattia_f88
    @Mattia_f88 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    wow!!

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      mattia fontana cheers !
      How did you find the video if you don't mind me asking?

    • @Mattia_f88
      @Mattia_f88 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      It came out in the youtube recommended videos. i hope that you can understand my little english.. super accurate and clean job!

  • @usedcarsokinawa
    @usedcarsokinawa ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wow! That’s a lot of plywood. Wouldn’t it be more efficient to use 3mm plywood?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  ปีที่แล้ว

      Yep it’s all I had

  • @JKLProjects
    @JKLProjects 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi, I was wondering what Japanese pull saw you would recommend and also what contact adhesive you used for your leather. Many thanks. JKL

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Not sure on the pulls saw. Everlast contact adhesive

  • @ToxicMetropolis
    @ToxicMetropolis 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video. Pin nails at 5min mark - for this kind of work, the pin nails are to hold pieces together while the glue dries, or is this important to keep everything strong?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      whilst the glue dries, just speed really.

  • @TJSWOODWORKINGSHOP
    @TJSWOODWORKINGSHOP 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Awesome idea my brother I love it good job :)

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      TJ'S WOODWORKING SHOP cheers 🍻
      Appreciate the comment!

  • @currypac
    @currypac 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nice wood work,
    How about a few spaces with plastic bit holders placed in them ?

  • @crossgrainwoodproductsltd9230
    @crossgrainwoodproductsltd9230 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How Have I missed you! You're brilliant!! I am making my way through your videos and I have subscribed so I don 't miss any of your future videos. The shop furniture is awesome and this particular cabinet appeals to the organizer in me. May I ask where you purchased such thin foam and does it have a particular name? Happy Holidays!!!

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      CrossGrain Wood Products,LTD thanks!
      The foam is craft shop Eva foam. In the uk you can get it from hobbycraft. Here is a link on amazon ewtshop® 20 Sheets Black Foam Rubber Foam for Crafts Format: 21 x 29.7 cm A4 www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07MQ1RDSL/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_dCRaEbPZ6KM45. It can be glue with contact adhesive.

  • @scootscoot2k
    @scootscoot2k 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Brilliant video, where did you get the birch ply in the UK? the only place I can find at a good price has Russian birch ply for £50 but has £80 delivery.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      scott harwood Avon ply in bristol but don't recall prices

  • @sergeishakitko1720
    @sergeishakitko1720 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    👍👍👍

  • @johngalt5572
    @johngalt5572 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Really enjoyed this video.
    At the end when you raised the container to push all the drill bits down.. i wonder if you have it on a slight angle if it would be a good/bad idea.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      MGTOW FTW yep a good idea! Each slot could have a slight angle. Would be a big improvement. I did contemplate marking thin wedges for each one. Thanks for the kind comments!

  • @DanielH
    @DanielH 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    What did you used to clean the sand paper?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Daniel H. It’s called a Sanding Belt Cleaning Block. Really cheap and saves so much sand paper!

    • @DanielH
      @DanielH 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you

  • @timjohnston57
    @timjohnston57 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hello, I really like your videos. Can you tell me what type of standing but that was it seem to be hooked up to a vacuum. If you have a link could you send it please. Thank you

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      www.toolstation.com/mirka-dust-extraction-handy-sander-kit/p86220

  • @bac8390
    @bac8390 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Excellent work, love your fastidious approach- most envious! Sorry if you've already commented on this, but what do you make of the Bosch table saw you're using? I'm currently considering it and would love to know what you think. Cheers

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      BAC 83 thanks for the comment!
      As for the Bosch table saw... it's ok but dust extraction isn't great and what annoys me is the non standard mitre slots. The fence locks down well but setting it to a set distance is best done by tapping it with your hands, not very accurate. Need to make your own zero clearance insert. The angling of the blade is clunky and inaccurate even with a digital angle finder. Blade changing is ok. The red stand is a waste of money. Will be building my own cart for it sometime. But other than that it's done me well first impressions were good but over time I found it not to be nearly accurate enough. I have created a sled that uses the outside edges of the table for the mitre bars as the slots are non standard and inconsistent. Hope that helps!!!!

    • @bac8390
      @bac8390 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Stuff I Made thanks for that, very useful info. Some of your comments are in line with the consensus (accuracy issues, annoying mitre slot), but the stand, dust extract, and some other points are very interesting-thanks very much! Any thoughts on a good alternative (of a similar form/size)?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      sorry i don't have experience with any others. I checked out an Axminster cabinet saw once but quality wise not great, although the fence was much more accurate, the mitre slots looked good and the angle mechanism for the blade was great.

  • @djcook100
    @djcook100 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Only just found your channel, so sorry for the question on an old video. Great project, very inspiring! Is that a vacuum hand-sanding block you are using, or just a small power sander?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      David Cook it’s a vacuum hand sanding block by Mirka.
      Here’s a link...
      www.mirka.com/uk/Sanding-Block-70x125mm-Grip-13H-Grey-8391402011/

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The sanding block is great by the way!!!!

    • @djcook100
      @djcook100 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Stuff I Made looks awesome, I might have to get myself one of those. Thank you!

  • @oscrm1760
    @oscrm1760 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What is the name of the yellow tool on the table saw and where can I get it

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Oscr M micro jig grr riper available here woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/collections/microjig

  • @patriciau6277
    @patriciau6277 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You need to cut out oval shapes on the sides of every slots for easy removal.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      patricia utzman no I don’t, the foam allows me to push and raise bits up

  • @sanjaysami4315
    @sanjaysami4315 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very nice ! What’s the reason for using foam in the trays for drill bits ?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Sanjay Sami when trying to get a drill bit out if one of the slots, the foam allows me to push on the end of a drill bit raising the other end slightly making it easy to pick one up

    • @sanjaysami4315
      @sanjaysami4315 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Stuff I Made - bloody logical reason 😀

  • @alexthepunk
    @alexthepunk 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    What kind of foam are you using?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Ultimate Maker pva craft foam from a hobby store.

  • @jaysanders7472
    @jaysanders7472 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I would love to have a complete set of plans.

  • @tigertruckerman
    @tigertruckerman 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Didn't catch what was that spray called,nice work

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      This is it.... but any clear matt/satin spray varnish would do...
      Plasti-Kote Polyurethane Clear Satin Varnish Spray www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000TRONAM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_TYljEbWFWEWAS

  • @danceanddreams1
    @danceanddreams1 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Do you really recommend to build this? what a pain in the ... to fiddle one of the bits out of this narrow slots.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      danceanddreams1 I guess you have built one and tried it or are you assuming? It’s actually easy as it turns out.

  • @stanleyshostak2737
    @stanleyshostak2737 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I love your videos and the stuff you make. Everything is well thought out and executed very well. Two comments though and I don’t mean to be critical. First is what didn’t you use thinner ply for the deviders. With 1/4 inch ply you would have saved an inch after four dieviders. The second is why use yellow glue, CA glue and brads. You are not the only person I have seen doing this but it seems like the brads and the CA glue are redundant. I am cheap and look at the cost on things like that, sorry.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Good points... I used the plywood that i had most of for the dividers, also i will be labelling each section and putting a hole in each divider so i can drop a marker in the hole when i take a bit out and know where i need to return it to. As for the use of CA glue with the yellow glue, it means i get the strength from yellow glue but the quick set of CA glue so i can move quicker. I cant use brads / pin nails in all locations, but when i can it adds a bit of extra strength for very little cost. I get what you are saying, i am not the most frugal person when it comes things like glue and nails. Thanks for the kind comments and asking questions, i really appreciate the perspective of others!

    • @ldwithrow08
      @ldwithrow08 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      My grandfather always said the only reason to use metal fasteners was to hold it together till the glue dries. Of course he had a lot more free time than I do. My brad driver gets a workout as something to hold everything in place while I get things clamped up.

    • @andrewcady9443
      @andrewcady9443 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You can get 10-20 of those little nails for about a penny.

  • @Ukracer
    @Ukracer 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Have you got a link to the CA glue and wood glue you use?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      TheUkracer no I don't sorry. I bought it at a woodworking show from a dodge looking chap!

  • @embwee
    @embwee 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    you can sink a whole lot of counters with those bits.

  • @tmorgan7939
    @tmorgan7939 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Beautiful piece. Just wondering. . . With the boxes you drop the bits into do you ever have any trouble getting any of the bits out because they get wedged into side corner ?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Tom Morgan thanks! And nope I just open the drawer fully and they come out easy

    • @tmorgan7939
      @tmorgan7939 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@StuffIMade Thank you. I went back and watched your video on the small parts organiser. I actually have some of those cases filled up so I stole your design and am making one a wider but not as high (9 cases) and plan to mount it on the wall close to eye level. When time allows the storage cart for the larger bits is another design I'll copy.

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@tmorgan7939 will you be posting a video?

  • @maxt7525
    @maxt7525 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I am new to wood working..... why put the bee wax on the wood?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      to protect the wood from moisture in the garage otherwise it gets mouldy

  • @raffaeles.7050
    @raffaeles.7050 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Good 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank you, glad you liked it !

    • @raffaeles.7050
      @raffaeles.7050 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Stuff I Made hello I'm Raffaele an Italian I do not understand much the american but do some great shots x understand thanks again

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      È piaciuto avere senso! In realtà sono inglese non americano ;)

    • @raffaeles.7050
      @raffaeles.7050 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Stuff I Made opss pardon 🙏🏼👍

  • @nicolebeck0508
    @nicolebeck0508 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Is that a nail gun or something similar?

  • @GiovaSanta12
    @GiovaSanta12 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What type of spray do you use on drawer?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Giovanni Santarcangelo clear matt spray varnish

    • @GiovaSanta12
      @GiovaSanta12 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      This is the exact one I use; 400ml Crystal Clear Gloss www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001W03PRM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_FDo7DbQNJPTN4
      I used to use another brand but this is great

  • @bldrmtnman
    @bldrmtnman 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    are you offering any plans for this project?

  • @abh3960
    @abh3960 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    what kind of saw

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Japanese pull saw

  • @euandykes
    @euandykes 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    How long did it take to make?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      A weekend, most of the time was thinking;)

  • @nikonshooter71
    @nikonshooter71 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    But the look 👀 of the Thicker wood

  • @meleader
    @meleader 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Why use 50% of your space with such thick dividers?

    • @StuffIMade
      @StuffIMade  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      It was the thinnest plywood I had ;) and still I have plenty of space for all my drill bits.

  • @siamaklighvani3951
    @siamaklighvani3951 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Everything is ok but the partitions are too thick, narrower ones are better