Black Mirror Analysis | White Bear
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2016
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The fact they wiped her memory is what made the punishment unjust. They may as well be punishing a completely different person.
Agreed. That part made no sense to me
@Mr Nevz
And on top of that, what even is the point of doing it every single day if she doesn't remember it after each time? They do it every day as if this compounds the torture for her...when in reality from her perception, every time it happens it's the first time for her. So wiping her memory every time just defeats the purpose of trying to torture her.
And how could the audience/public be entertained by the exact same performance every time and feel vindicated when they know she won't even be given time to dwell on her actions? (An essential piece of retribution and justice)
@@CustomFitted different audiences. It's a theme park
Right I understand that, but even if I was part of a new audience and was seeing it for the 1st time...logically Id be thinking "Ok well you guys are gonna wipe her memory 30 seconds from now so what's the point?"
I thought the same, but if you think about it if they didn't wipe her memory then it would be worst. For her is always the first time, we are the ones who feel distrubed because we know this is happening again and again and again.
Whenever someone asks me what black mirror is about I immediately tell them to watch this episode. To this day this episode has shaken my core
RIGHT??? I always recommend this episode first. No movie/show anything has shaken me up than this one, because it really forces you to think... we humanized a horrible person, but she didn't know why this was happening to her. We humanized her because she experienced true fear, confusion, agony (as the little girl did) yet only to have that shattered by her horrible deeds.. augh it shakes me up sooo much
I would recommend Shut Up And Dance probably to introduce someone to the show. The amount of shock and the end of the episode is insane, on top of the amount of tension there was in the episode alone.
This episode honestly sucked
@JewPotatoe Yes I agree. The show usually asks good questions about technology. This one fell flat for me. Wipe a criminal's memory clean so they don't know they committed a crime? Why? I know people keep saying "the child was innocent"...Yes but this woman wasn't. Let her wallow in her guilt. Not just leave her confused.
Jew Potato oh gotcha
There is a very important detail you should've included in the video in my opinion. When Victoria, and the audience, is shown the news report of her crime, it is said that it wasn't Victoria who actually committed the crime; but it was Victoria who FILMED it, which means she was an accomplice. In other words, she was a spectator of the crime. What does this remind you of? Throughout essentially the entire episode Victoria saw spectators filming crimes which were inflicted upon her (by the staff of the white bear park). I think this is an intentional and key part of the plot. The people who were constantly filming her didn't help her, much like Victoria didn't help the girl who was being killed. Perhaps the staff of the park did this on purpose.
MetalWillem1 Fantastic comment, I definitely don't think this video is as detailed as I'd like but I think I did mention her punishment was fitting for the crime she potentially committed
Thank you.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good video and I enjoyed it! You brought up some points I didn't think of myself.
It's made clear in the credits scene that the people filming during her day are visitors that bought tickets to the park with the sole purpose of getting to stand around and film her ordeal. She's not just being tortured, she's a tourist attraction.
yes this is what i was thinking too, kind of recreating her crime, she being the victim, that's fucked up idk what to think lol
We'll legally you technically did commit the crime. Even if you just filmed it.
i just wanna mention how fucked up it is that they have the technology to make criminals forget there crimes and start anew under possible better circumstances and instead they do this lol
that's a great point!
Love is Dope Exactly. What's even the point of punishing someone for a crime if they have no memory of who they are or what they did? You're basically torturing a complete stranger.
Right, attention here should be put on the people who feels pleasure watching this, as some type of undercovered sadistic entertainment: they love watching someone suffer, and they're ok with it coz they want to believe that that's fair. It's messed up really.
never thought of it that way
Who's to say they didnt already try but the 'reformed' criminal goes back to their criminal ways?
One of the most terrifying things is that when I ask people what they thought of this episode, they always say that she deserved it. That it was justice. It terrifies me because, in the end, the justice became obstructed by torturing of this woman and everyone became obsessed with punishing her. The same with the other episodes, many people who seem to love this show are guilty of the same things the antagonists in the episodes do. Tweeting "#kill (insert person of controversy)", placing their value in their Instagrams, refusing to communicate and simply block each other because of differences, Black Mirror isn't just about what is to come. It's about what is happening right now.
so true. Also I think it is linked to the reason why most people didn't like the Waldo moment when it came out. With the other episodes they may have not realize that the show is criticizing them as they are now, not what they may become; yet Waldo was a more obvious critic of our society. They may have thought that it was ridiculous and would never happen because we have but we are just to full of ourselves to admit it when someone can read into our short-comings so perfectly.
AlastairDream None of this is happening. Stop.
AlastairDream brilliant comment. So true...I felt disgusted and horrified when I finished this episode. I understand the woman kidnapped and murdered and innocent child, but just as I saw in another comment, this woman has no memory. How is ethical to torture a woman who has no recollection of the crime, let alone her identity. At least the little girl was able to have an end to her momentary suffering. This torture doesn’t even compare, nor seems worth it if this woman can’t remember. It’s pure sadism, not even close to “justice” that they speak of. What is the purpose of revenge if the person can’t even remember.
A Black Mirror episode about Black Mirror
I think such punishment is extreme and obviously invalid in the real world. I also think that since she's essentially "innocent" with her memory wiped, it might be a little extreme. That said, fuck the character and what she did. I don't sympathise with her, and I don't think the torture is that bad. Considering her memory of it is reset the next day, it's not like she's enduring ages and ages of torture: just one really shitty day, exactly what the little girl got. Her memory reset is like death. She deserves it.
Edit: Not only that, but they didn't say anything about rehabilitation: maybe one day they'll let her go before telling her what she did. Or just move her to a more "humane" environment. I consider it more a critique of the "for-profit prison" structure than of "torture".
I noticed that the people with cell phones idea seemed to focus on the passivity of the public to watch crimes being committed while doing nothing about it. even justifying thier behavior with ideas like, "it's just a theme park", or "She's a criminal, so it's ok." it creates a running man/death race type feel.
jdbceb Great comment, kicking myself that I didn't pick up on that!
Weren't they being mind comtrolled?
I was thinking the same thing. Nowadays If something like a fight brakes out the first thing every one will do is pull out their phones to record it.
jdbceb yah Same thought
it reminded me of the story of kitty genovese
I also feel this episode makes a statement about the desecration of zoos. When I watched Victoria run and cry as she tried to get away from the killers, all for the entertainment of the public, I drew parallels to how human beings train circus animals to do stunts for the sake of our entertainment. I like especially how the name of the park was White Bear Park but juxtapositionally places a human within it.
Sam Enrique didn't think of that, good point tho
Sam Enrique wait to u find out we eat them too
Sam Enrique I thought of the strip club as well. Very deep
Now I don't support circus and whatever but no matter what, the way animals feel and how their cognitive functions work are completely and entirely different to that of human beings..
Didn't they compare her to a lion at some point? i could be wrong, like she could be dangerous so they should keep their distance?
I felt disgusted and horrified when I finished this episode. I understand the woman kidnapped and murdered and innocent child, but just as I saw in another comment, this woman has no memory. How is it ethical to torture a woman who has no recollection of the crime, let alone her identity. At least the little girl was able to have an end to her momentary suffering. This torture doesn’t even compare, nor seems worth it if this woman can’t remember. It’s pure sadism, not even close to “justice” that they speak of. What is the purpose of revenge if the person can’t even remember?
Also, these actors seem more disturbed than this lady-in a sick and twisted kind of way too. This episode just disturbed me internally...so cruel and unfair.
How does it not compare, though? Because for her it genuinely is just one day of torture, exactly what the little girl got. Additionally, they don't reveal the end of the experiment (not in this episode at least) so it's not impossible that once they think she reaches a breaking point, they release her as "rehabilitated". Why not?
Pewpew Lazergun yeah for HER its one day of torture. But really its not because this is done to the lady every day. This is unlike the little girl's situation where as you said it was: "one day of torture"
True2Live it's so she can forever feel the what the girl felt.
ZTG True, but again, what is the point of punishment if the person cannot remember what they did, let alone their own identity. It’s equivalent to beating your dog 8 hours after it got into the trash. This woman will not be able to associate what her and her husband did if she doesn’t even believe that any of it is true/real.
Or how about someone who broke your heart? Crazy ex girlfriend cheated on you. But she comes down with a rare brain disease causing her to develop amnesia, thus altering her personality.
Would you still punish her? Still inflict that pain on her if she doesn’t even know who you are, let alone herself?
This is beyond justice, this is ultimately a cruel and sadistic form of torture accepted by society.
I don't think I'm gonna beat my dog.
I think this episode was not only a rumination on the ethics of torture/punishment but on society’s role of where to draw the line when it comes to justice, punishment, and empathy for convicted criminals. Can we still empathize with criminals when we see them being punished? Does the punishment fit the crime? If we were to find out that the person being tortured were innocent, how would we react? Would we punish ourselves for being complicit in their torture or just move on like nothing happened? It brought up a lot of morality questioning for me, and the answers I had were always in the grey murky area. This is one of the most underrated episodes of the series, but in my opinion, it’s one of the most thought-provoking.
slimkt if I wiped a persons memories, should they even be held responsible for what the old person did? Because in one way you could say you killed that person by killing their memories.
fieldy409 see, that’s exactly my point. One could argue that, with their memory wiped, this is an entirely new person and that they technically didn’t do anything since they have no recollection of their crimes. But one could also argue that, not being able to remember doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of committing the same crime again. The lines are blurry and the answers to any one question can be polarizing.
slimkt Ever read the sci fi books series The Culture? In a ridiculously far flung advanced sci fi future and all that. But they dont really punish really bad people because they say theres no point in punishment. They just seperate them on their own little world to live out their life alone in a little paradise and give them everything they need and want except freedom.
Makes you think in addition to the question of if they are the same person, even if they are does it matter?. It might feel good to get vengence but whats the point right?
slimkt if one argued that, i would disagree due to the fact that just because you dont remember something doesnt mean you didn't commit the crime.
Chill with all the questions, if they committed a horrible crime, they deserve to have the same thing done to them, an eye for an eye, that is fair, end of.
I really hated the fact that they made her lose her memory. By making her forget her part in the crime she has no way of mourning or learning from her mistake. She is just made to suffer for a crime that her present self did not commit. They are trying to punish a criminal who, because of them, no longer exist. Our memories make up who we are and without them we are different people. By taking them away they have made a criminal who is no longer there. I really wish they maybe handled it differently. I love these analysis videos though. Black Mirror is one of my favorite shows and these videos are a really great way of looking at them through a cool angle. Keep up the good work man!
Even with the memories intact this is immoral.
In a way its a metaphor for the innocence of a child. They are trying to recreate what the child went through in the skin of the perpetrator, ethical or not.
Mentally she may not remember but she did it none the less she deserves this
@@soakedbearrd yes in a way its a metaphor of the childs innocence. but by wiping away her memory, she doesnt even know how long this has been going on. she doesnt even know shes being tortured. this could go on for basically forever and in the womans mind, its just a one day torture coz she forgets everything at the end of the day. No matter how many times they do this, the womans mind thinks this has never happened before. To me, the longer they do this the more its just for the entertainment of the audience. So i dont see the point.
@@maureendadivas5968 I agree 100%, that’s why it’s a black mirror episode, the whole show is based on an Idea that runs amok, whether it’s societal, technological, or moral. It’s a show about that slippery slope of good intentions and potential outcomes of those intentions.
"The ethics of torture"
It's simple: If the sole purpose of torture is the torture itself (i.e. you're not trying to get something out of the person), then it's just torture for the torturer's (and the audience's) enjoyment. The circumstances before the torture don't make any difference. It can be the worst fucking serial killer child rapist, if you torture them "for their deed", you're actually just torturing them for your enjoyment. What's worse, you rationalize that you're entitled to enjoy their torture because of what they did.
A rational person; I thought they went extinct :OO
zolikoff I respectfully disagree, in my opinion you are commiting the torture that is true, but isn't prison a form of torture? taking away your rights and ability to choose. But we still need the enforcers, but prison guards aren't considered bad people. The same with parents taking a toy away from a child, or putting them in a corner when they hurt someone else, this may be extremely mild but it is still a form of "torture", yet it's the parents duty to discipline their child. please know I am not fighting with you ♥♥ much love
Heidi Aberdein no, prison isn't torture. perhaps solitary confinement though. You need to understand the difference between torture and punishment. torture goes way beyond punishment
As Trevor Phillip would say, You torture for the good times.
Heidi Aberdein the original purpose of a prison is to remove dangerous people from society and then rehabilitate them into working members of said society, I would argue that it the exact opposite of torture when done right, the problem is that media typically features prisons where violence, bad organisation and corrupt people in charge dwell. Albeit many prisons have leaders who are only after money, so they don't care much about the safety of the prisoners rather than getting money and punishing them in unneeded manners. But prison in by itself is not torture, it's the people in charge of them which use prison as an excuse to load uneccesary hate on others for their own gain.
they erased the murderer/accomplice by taking her memory, so they were torturing an innocent women. this episode is sick.
If i film someone being killed in a park alone, terrified, being tortured and then got amnesia tomorrow should i walk free ? If that was your daughter crying for you while being tortured and filmed would you feel the same way ? No they shouldn't have enjoyed what they did to victoria but i think your sympathy is misplaced. It's like saying to every pedophile and murderer that as long as they forget what they did to little kids they shouldn't be punished!!
@@samuels3843 no, they should be in jail, even if they get amnesia. But not this torture
Crime and punishment. Unusually cruel crime. Unusually cruel punishment. Not sure why people sympathize with a child killer.
@@mattoreo5854 That sounds very arbitrary.
@@robertwoods4229 what is it that you want to happen to them
I've just seen this episode, and my question is how long will it be until she remembers everything, or remembers so much that they can no longer use the same routine. She vaguely remembered the man who drove her to the woods, she remembered that 'white bear' was significant and later remembered that they shouldn't go there. It's not shown how long she had been kept there, but she was clearly starting to remember things, and the memory erasure wasn't as effective as they thought it would be.
So do you think she'd eventually remember enough to evade or kill the staff and escape the complex?
Conway79 They did show how long she was kept there, e.i the calendar that's marked everyday. Good question, though i suppose that the device they are using to wipe her memory is causing a tremendous amount of brain damage so it may get harder and harder to remember things and even if she does she isn't given time to make decisions for herself. She's following this woman who is seemingly on her side and she really has no other choice but to follow her as she thinks she knows what's going on and how to get out of it.
but that was only october, we don't know if she was there in September or not
She's probably not going to remember but instead eventually mentally break down to the excessive memory wiping. Thats pretty damaging to the brain cells. At some point she wont be able to function, she'll just wake up and shake for hours. Thats my guess but its pretty openended.
If I was her and lucky enough to start remembering shit i prolly would jus start bein less dramatic so niggas a stop coming to the park to see me. Then they cud take me to a regular prison at least they got food and beds there
Sean Dafny your on to something there sunny Jim
"We don't know if she actually did it or not" - They keep saying she's in the videos and was filming them, we don't see the child murder videos, but they make it clear she was 100% guilty.
STlTCHlZ She's not in the video if she's filming it... That part was a bit open ended
YouLikeKrabbyPatties but she admitted it at the end
YouLikeKrabbyPatties She remembers bits and pieces of what she did over the course of the episode. She is most definitely guilty.
I don't recall her admitting the crime and I think they mentioned that during the trial she said she was being forced by her fiance, that way it is left unknown wether she was truly guilty
I don't recall them ever making it open ended whether she committed the crime or not. The question being posed is whether or not it's ethical to do these things if the person you're doing them to is a psychotic criminal. It's pretty apparent that she's definitely guilty.
I don't see the logic of it when she can't remember her awful deed... it's not even controversial, it's just not logical... the punishment is not justified or even useful in any sense when shd doesn't remember the reason for being punished... also it's time to read Foucault again, peace
Well I guess her punishment is for the satisfaction of society rather than for her to learn a lesson, since she will most likely be in this simulation until she dies, so it makes no difference whether she learns a lesson or not.
Well I think that is what the episode try to express, people in the society just want to see the worst kind of punishment done to the people they redeem "bad" or "evil". They don't really care if that people learn their lesson or if the punishment will turn them back into a good person of the society. They just want to see them rot in hell regardless of if the person deserve that kind of punishment or not.
I feel like this episode is a kind of preview to Hated In The Nation, in that both of those episodes deal with how the public enact and manipulate justice. Both episodes surround the idea that, as Gwyn said, the public just want to enforce the worst form of punishment regardless of whether or not they deserve it.
Well the alternative is life in prison, and while that saps taxpayer dollars, White Bear Justice Parks instead makes its own money. True, taxpayers pay for it, but it's their choice to attend the park. As opposed to being forced to pay to keep a hardened criminal alive in a room for the rest of their life.
I'm torn. This is the first time I ever considered that Victoria is actually innocent. I figured she would've tried telling people this once the news was played in front of her, but instead, she just wanted to die. She didn't apologize, implying her guilt, or plead her case, implying her innocence. She just wants to die, implying she might feel remorseful. So I guess the ending implies she's learned her lesson and is "redeemed," but her torture will never stop. Hard to say for sure...
idk about Foucault, but the rest seems logical
This makes me realize that it isn't just made up fiction. There are actual real people, in this world, in this very comment section, who are sadistic enough to consider this acceptable. They enjoy seeing human suffering as long as they can write it off as "justice", and keep believing that they are good and moral. They're among us, people, plenty in numbers. They would gladly buy tickets to this show, take their kids for a weekend, and enjoy themselves. We think of Romans and their gladiator fights as savages, but we haven't changed. We're still savages.
Well put.
That’s not really surprising tbh, humanity never truly had the moral high ground.
I don't think this is black and white as that.
Humanity is rotten to the core
She filmed the torture and murder of a child. Not saying torturing her and wiping her memory is ok, but tbh she deserved to go through this at least once and then sent to prison for the rest of her life. Ask yourself: if she had filmed the torture and murder of YOUR child, how would you react?
I thought this would be the first episode to leave me disappointed but that bait and switch right at the end really did my head in. I loved how you empathize with the main character's confusion only to have that completely shattered. Aside from the really uncomfortable agonizing screaming she was exhibiting, I feel like this form of torture would certainly be worse than death.. but did she deserve it? Hm. This show is amazing.
she didn't deserve it since she had no memory of her actions. she was basically another person, starting from scratch. also, I believe people should;t take it into their own hands to punish criminals for their actions. just let the justice system do its job.
Ed R No she doesn’t deserve it because they erased her memories so there for she is mentally and factually innocent. They basically erased the guiltless form her by erasing any memory of the evil act. They are basically torturing a innocent stranger so there’s no point.
what's wrong with you ?? NOBODY DESERVE THIS
I still empathize with her because she doesn't remember anything so for she is a new person
@@nonamed56 Yeah because the justice system clearly isn't flawed and is 100% effective.
For me, the most nightmarish part of this episode was knowing that I know people who would be 100% on board with this. For me, justice is mainly about decreasing suffering, not inflicting pain on criminals.
Locking away murderers makes sense to me -- they are kept from murdering anybody else. I suppose execution gets the same result. Rehabilitation is ideal to me, since instead of just losing a destructive member of our society, we can gain a productive one. Some people are fucked up in the head in such a way that rehabilitation is impossible -- but most people, including those will severe mental illnesses, do have the potential to grow enough to function in society.
But I understand all three options. What I don't understand, and am horrified by, is hurting someone for the sake of hurting someone. People want to express their rage, get their vengeance, yes... but I've yet to see torture for torture's sake actually make society better.
Hell, if you look at a lot of (say) murderers out there, most of them have had some sort of traumatic past. With sociopaths, it seems pretty much universal. My point is, if serious trauma helps inspire someone to do horrible things, then another round of serious trauma probably won't make them better.
Kind of like how on soap operas, a character will get hit in the head, lose their memories, hit their head again, and magically regain them. That's not how life works.
I completely agree with you, and the number of people in the comments who justify the torture frighten me.
Yup. We’re perfectly okay with harassment, bullying, torture, or really anything so long as we’ve convinced ourselves that the victim “deserves” it for something they did. It’s the deepest, most dangerous flaw in all of humanity.
Dude most serial killers had regular lives, sociopaths just have a brain nessed up to live in society as we conceive it.
I mean you want to rehabilitate someone "in the contex of the episode" just wipe there memory then let them go. like victoria might as well be a diffrent person after she gets wiped and has no memory of who she was and what she did so at that point just let her go. all the result of rehabilitation but without the years of locking them up and the goverment paying to feed them.
What was that one movie where that rich girl ends up falling off the yacht and looses her memory and well becomes some guys and kids “wife” he uses her but slowly Begins to actually form some form of a relationship with her. At some point regains her memory but in the end at some point of the movie goes back to him.
Then they did it again but with a male this time in her spot and a female in his spot.
I think you missed the point of the people recording her and taking pics with their phones, it's because that's exactly what she did to the little kid while she was being abducted and murdered.
Has been mentioned
But doesn't that make them just as guilty?
that distinction is never made towards the park guests with regards to their motivations. they are told to take lots of pictures because it will be more fun for them. they're not told that they're doing it to enact specific justice. it may be fitting, but it presents as a coincidence.
zEropoint68 but the park is literally called “white bear justice park”. I think it’s common sense that the point of recording this woman in that manner was to put her in the position of the little girl whose murder she filmed. That’s why it’s so enjoyable for them.
zEropoint68 the man even says to her something along the lines of "how does it feel when it happens to you?" When hes telling her her crimes towards the end, which tells me that it is intentional
Yaaay I've been waiting for this, the episode gave me serious chills.
Chioma Ejimofo I was your 200th like
Chioma Ejimofo a year later lol
@@jordankarl6463 700th here
@@jordankarl6463 holy shit I'm late to the party
1k here
This episode made me sick of the things people will do and then think of themselves has doing the right thing.
That woman deserves to be tortured
This comment section scares me.
TheMistySnowField then leave the comment section lol.
The torture makes no sense if she can't even remember why it happens in the first place.
I'm in high school and I'm discussed by how many people in my class agreed with this episode and thought a park like that would be a good idea.
This is by far my favorite episode. My brain fucking exploded when the twist hit me.
she doesnt even know she is being tortured - the people are like, worse then what she did in a way though... whos the real villain?
The little girl that her and her husband murdered didnt know she was being tortured
alicia fougere her, her dead bf and the people that created the park
I think that's the point of the episode!
alicia fougere And that excuses what's done to her in the episode... how exactly?
IDK, cause she's black I guess, the English are notoriously racist!
Immediately clicked on this as soon as I saw the Thumbnail. Brilliant analysis as always. I find that White Bear and Waldo are quite underrated episodes that raise a lot of fascinating questions about the general public's influence. Can't wait to see your next breakdown!
Raycevick that's how I feel too.
hey it's Raycevick
Love your series on Halo, glad to know you like Black Mirror too!
Raycevick white bear is the best episode for me so far
I didn't like the first episode of season two and the last episode of season 1
Analysis? Haha he just summed up what the episode is about idiot
I think having her go through the "torture" once is enough, making her go through the same day multiple times makes no sense, she don't remember it, everyone involved is just wasting their time.
hi! the point of doing the routine so many times is to entertain the public
Once is too many times though. The point of imprisonment should not be torture, all that serves is the torturer’s pleasure and perhaps is a deterrent. It is (or should be) rehabilitation, so when the person is released, they are no longer a danger. Case in point, Nordic countries.
The people watching and filming are supposed to make her feel like the little girl her boyfriend murdered; they are watching her get, so to speak, tortured without helping her. The same thing she did with the girl. That's part of the punishment...at least that's what I think.
Ada Lina Greattttt point.
It is part of the punishment. My only question is how is she supposed to reflect on her crimes if she doesn't know she committed them? Also, they do this everyday? No holiday breaks? Seems like alot to go through just to say "ah ha! You're evil" at the end of the day.
shes not supposed to I think, its like trying to tell other sickos not to do what she did or they will have the same fate.
Donald Trump how do you know?
No point if she can’t even remember ANYTHING
It’s interesting now watching bandersnatch and realizing the sign is revealed to represent free will and how different choices lead to different realities
HOW DOES SHE eat AND drink lol
They eat in the woods remember?
yeah but each scene isnt exact..they may have stayed longer in certain scenes with different people interfering...its basically a play a long play with active participants..they can give her food when ever..also feeding tube when blacked out for periods of time.
Brian Creaityn doesn't she say remembers they eat outside the woods when they are driving? Maybe every other day they feed her. She's obviously thirsty and drinks one glass in the morning which is why they clean the cup and leave it there.
real question how does she piss and shit
Force feeding?
This reminded me so much of current incidents. Whenever a crime happens people are like "Hang him", "Cut his hands", etc. And there is support of Guantanamo bay, waterboarding also. People have a really twisted meaning of the word "Justice".
Suyash Awasthi well Victoria did deserved that she could've stop her boyfriend from killing the little girl but she filmed it but it should have been for atleast a day not for a long time
Aftertale Sans You are just proving the point he made.
@@GoblinAttacForce A person is a collection of their memories. Were you to clone someone and wipe their memories, the clone would not be the person. Were you to clone a murderer with no wiping, the clone would still be a murderer, but if you wiped their memories, they would not be, therefore, someone is not their body, they are their memories, so if you wipe someone’s memories, they are a new person.
40-50 years in prison or in rehabilitation sounds much better than this torture. It's more humane, it stops the criminal, and it helps her move on.
it annoyed me that she wouldnt stop WHEEZING EVERY 2 SECONDS SO ANNOYING
Me too but imagine not knowing who or where you are & people are just out to murder you. Most people would freak out at the thought.
That's called "acting".
I'm sorry that her beyond tortured soul annoyed you
honestly, yeah. the viewer was supposed to empathize with her but i couldn't because she kept crying, and it annoyed me. i wasn't even able to watch the episode in one sitting because it made me so angry. i felt no attachment to any of the characters at all. because of this, white bear was one of my least favorite episodes.
_Galaxia_ ye I couldn’t feel her pain cus her acting fucking sucks, she overacts too much it was irritating lol
This was one of the best episodes, mainly because you are left both sympathizing and abhorring both sides (Victoria and society). There is no clear cut good or bad guy because (I think) once you erase somebody's memories, they are effectively a different person, and is it right to punish someone for the crimes of someone else? And while I hate the Park and what they are doing, I also understand. In Canada there were Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, and if they put Homolka in a similar situation to this, I am not sure I would feel sorry for her (even with a wiped memory). I might even go to the park myself.
Relating to something you said, I think you just kinda have to take 'on faith' that the backstory the park gives Victoria is accurate. Otherwise the society that allows this park seems less ambiguously in the wrong than they are portrayed here.
damdarch why everybody keep saying if u erase someones memories they shouldnt be punished. So if I kick Mike Tyson in the balls and he KOs me with a left hook, is it wrong for him to finish the combo after I am already unconscious and my memories are wiped clean from said left hook?
There is a very clear bad guy and it is anyone that supported this inhumane torture.
The people are definitely on the bad side of this, it's very clear cut.
I’m surprised you found her guilt ambiguous, I thought they made it very clear that she filmed the acts, that she confessed even though she claimed to have been “under his spell” and that she was definitely partly to blame. Other than that everything you said was spot on. I felt so uncomfortable watching it.
Tbh she's pretty much a new person but in the same body.
Her memory's been wiped so she's not the same person she was before because our memories make up our identity.
Everything we know about her crime comes from the people running the park. For all we know, the entire news reel could be fake like everything else in the park, and she could be completely innocent. Which she basically is anyway since she doesn't remember it.
I stopped watching the analysis after he said that. It’s blatantly obvious that she’s guilty of the crime smh
@@TheNoobSenseinot remembering doesn’t make you innocent! What a shitt^ mindeset!!! An innocent life was just gone! Remember or not she is fcking guilty!
For the ones saying it’s fucked up they wiped her memory and aren’t justly punishing her, I think the idea is they were making her the clueless innocent child that she helped harm in the first place
Why did they have to keep doing the same shi* 20 times and more???? I mean she committed that brutal murder once, right? So the punishment should match what they did initially. But instead, they kept at it every day, making it worse by repeatedly erasing her memory. It's messed up, they were punishing a murderer over and over, even though she asked them to end it after getting her memory back. What's bizarre is that everyone seemed to enjoy this repeated torture by wiping her memory when she was innocent afterward. It blurred the lines of who the real torturer was...
I thought it was like symbolism for hell or karma.
Teddy Dreams i see how that can be implied
I never could understand the concept of hell, how can a just god put someone in infinite suffering for their finite crime!
The actress who played Victoria was in my opinion one of the best performances in the entire series. I'd love to see her in future episodes or (why not?) even movies
KJmusic97 she was sexy
Yes, she and the kid from 'Shut Up and Dance' acted their asses off. Top 2 performances of the series, to me.
drlee2 you should watch the kid from 'shut up and dance' in 'the end of the fucking world', he's really amazing :)
Seems rather illogical that this torture could ever be allowed when you consider that each time she gets her memory wiped she essentially becomes a new person. in my mind at least.
Doesn't matter. She still did the crime.
@@bluebubble229
Is there no limit to you to how strong a punishment could be.
This case doesn't sound like they could be 100% certain that she actually was guilty as well.
In the video at the end which explained the situation she said she was "under his spell". She could have been manipulated by him.
To me this is somewhat irrelevant because this punishment is severely immoral no matter to who it would have been done.
Manipulated? She killed an innocent child. She had a choice.
Taylor T What is the point in torturing someone of they have no memory of the crime they committed? Just kill them.
@@bluebubble229 she didn't kill, she was only allegedly coerced into filming her murder by her abusive partner. Whether she did it or not, this course of action is unacceptable as it obfuscates justice and makes torture the end goal. In an ideal world, we want this person to be punished for their crime (action and consequence, duh no shit) but also to be able to learn from it and reflect in the hopes that they can integrate back into the world more easily. The memory wiping is counter-intuitive to that outcome
This is how I imagined justice when I was around 10 years old. And I wanted to be a dictator.
I had the misfortune of watching this with a friend while the both of us were tripping on shrooms, to say it was disturbing would be an understatement.
Why would you watch a black mirror episode on mushrooms? You're nuts
My friend's girl wanted to watch it, so naturally my friend went along with her and acted like the shrooms had already worn off. I asked to watch something else (that wasnt also some type of horror movie) a few times, but i was ignored.
I watched bandersnatch on acid it was crazy af
you must be traumatized now 😭
I don't know if its more of a question of is it ethical but more of a modern interpretation of the public execution. Humans have always put aside moral codes when it came to criminals and given that society views of public executions are "barbaric", given to option of public torture of a criminal I believe people would defiantly pay to see it.
I completely agree with what happened in this Black Mirror episode.
I was wondering "how is this punishment for her if she can't remember anything?" Like aren't these ppl just psychopaths torturing someone who isn't actually learning from her sentence and they're not bettering society by spending money on this project.
And since they have to keep her alive, do they feed her? Do they make sure the tech doesn't permanently damage her brain so that they can keep up the charade? They have to take care of her to keep her alive just to torture her? That's sick shit.
Yeah I thought this one was "meh" but still raised good questions. I just feel like they're wasting too many resources to keep doing that everyday. Do they take weekends off?
Its a paid theme park/justice system. People pay to participate.
Jong dae every day thats for us to know and the prisoner to guess. Once u commit a crime especially something like torturing a kid, all that empathy shit really goes out the window. It dont matter if they kno what they did or not we kno what she did and we kno she paying for it, who cares if she knows.
Its hypocritical in a way because they are doing the same thing, in essence, which they blame her for. Obviously not on the same level but still.
I don’t think Victoria’s the only person in the park, rather she’s the main attraction. I imagine there’d be quite a few criminals with similarly twisted yet symbolic punishments scattered around. Almost like a theme park, but instead of roller coasters it’s criminals.
I'm conflicted on this one. Society can't function by going off the will of an angry mob, no matter how justified the anger may feel. But at the same time I have absolutely no sympathy for Victoria. She wasn't convicted of stealing sweets from a corner shop, she helped abduct and film the torture and death of a child. This is maybe the worst crime a human can commit. Because children represent innocence and are unable to defend themselves. Even among prisoners, those who we deem to be the undesirables of society despise child abusers, and there's a reason for. I really enjoyed the analysis overall, but I don't understand why you question if she actually did it or not, based on the evidence they convicted her of, it's blatant that she was a willing participant of it.
Whether or not she was a willing participant is unclear, and we don't know exactly what happened besides a child was killed in the most horrific way and she was found guilty for filming it. An absolutely heinous crime of course, but we don't really know how it went down. Her memory flashes are obviously unreliable and the exposition in the reveal is unreliable as well - it's basically a tourist attraction, not a recitation of the trial transcript with a screening of the unedited video.
Luke47895 regardless, an eye for an eye leaves the world blind
The problem is that We're not looking at Victoria, We're looking at a confused Woman who has no memories, so the things that made her a shitty human being are completely gone and she's just an Innocent Woman who's scared and confused being tortured unjustly and these twisted bastards know it damn well, they're probably worse than Victoria.
The thing is, even though, the Child was eventually put out of it's misery. This one forces her to redo it every day. And to not know about it? It's unethical. We have ethics. And she just recorded it. It wasn't like they went on a serial killing spree.
+Fireice 999 Recording it is almost as bad. You seem to be implying that their crime was no big deal.
I would really like to see a spin on this episode when Victoria remembers what supposed to happen and tries to escape. Would be interesting
Definitely
There kinda was a folow up cus there are easter eggs in later episodes where the park got closed and she got moved. think it was the black musuem episode that i remember seeing that. like there was also one that syas the pm from the very first episode ended up getting divorced witch means his relationship with his wipe did die after the events of the episode.
Also very interesting to point out the similarities of the episode to the Greek mythology tale of the Titan Prometheus. After defying the gods of Olympus and giving humanity the gift of fire, Prometheus was bound to a rock where each day an eagle, the emblem of Zeus, was sent to feed on his liver, which would then grow back to be eaten again the next day.
Eternal torture.
The girl actor was extremely cute tho
Tontzamann looks like you are the only ape here going insane over a TH-cam comment lol
She ight.
U mean the one that was helping her out now yea she was kinda bad
Velvet Doll ur the only idiot arguing with urself u fucking dumbass
In terms of those memories flashbacks Victoria has, I got the impression over time the memory wipes were getting less effective and she was actually remembering what she did but by bit. I like the idea of her actually waking up, having an idea of who she is, what she has done and where she is. It would be interesting to see her trying to turn the tables.
I could think of a few criminals who we could put into "Justice Parks" like this. *cough* Shittenpants *cough*
Ethics of torture, sure, but also a commentary on what's known as 'the bystander effect'. People that stand around and watch instead of doing something, or in the modern age, recording it for posting online. Don't get too strung up in the fiction because this show is entirely symbolic for the sake of social satire, not weaving some greater filmic universe.
James Bootywolfe wrong. You're supposed to think it is commentary on the bystander effect until the twist is revealed.
Bar San is correct. If you thought this was a commentary on the bystander effect, you either didn't watch the whole thing or didn't understand it.
Thank you all for your patience, I have a script ready for the waldo moment so it shouldn't be too long before the next Black mirror video. Might save the white Christmas video for a Christmas day release though...
Hi, I love this series for one of my favourite tv shows, just wondering what did you think about the new season of Black Mirror? Since it has been getting a bit of criticism.
xAlexHDx1 Criticism? I didn't know about this, I mean I LOVED series 3 but.. who criticised it? I'd love to give it a read.
xAlexHDx1 Criticism? I didn't know about this, I mean I LOVED series 3 but.. who criticised it? I'd love to give it a read.
Well I just saw a few reviews not saying that it wasn't as good as season 3 on IMDb and also on Tabloid websites they only gave a few episodes 3 stars, I too LOVED series 3 and can't wait for the 4th season.
xAlexHDx1 Well I never felt the reviews on imdb are of much interest to me. It's very easy to just type out a couple of sentences and pass it off as a review on a popular website, but for a show like this I think that you can't describe your experience in just a few words.
A society lacking in grace and mercy. Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth, Life for Life.
Does anybody else feel that she is also brainwashed into believing that she committed a crime that didn't really happen??
No
Cruise Berra nope, maybe you did a crime
YoungBlaze So you think he is a criminal because he second geusses the justice System of fictional world?
Avatarreus I. Maybe you did a crime
lol you are a troll
Oh damn i legit JUST finished this episode and this video popped up in my suggestion.
Great analysis! This episode was a total mindfk. Well so are all other black mirror episodes tbh.
I actually enjoyed this episode more than i was going to. I love how it came full circle in the end from the symbols, to the woods, to the people videoing her, and her childlike confusion. All factors to fit her crime and make her feel like she was in it.
This episode raises questions like no other and in the end it makes a lot of things clear but still raises questions to be answered. Great episode !
This episode is pretty fucked up IMO. Because even though she does get punished. She doesn't seem to remember anything.
Real brainwashing doesn't exist
She is the same person. She lost her memory. She didn't change on her own.
This episode will torture your mind forever..
Its 2022 and this still tortures my mind
It is interesting to also note the significance of props and locations in this episode.
Cell Phone - This was the most obvious since it was used to humiliate Victoria and what she used to assist in killing the little girl. (Bystander Effect)
Fire and Gas - She finds Jem who isn't affected, at the Gas Station. Victoria is told to roll her the Fire Extinguisher so they can be free from the shooter. Later in the episode, Jem attempts to burn the tower using gas and fire. (Similar to Jemima's unfortunate fate)
Gun- Throughout the episode, a gun is controlling her movements and actions. (Leaving the neighboorhood, in the woods and trying to kill the hunter. ) This serves as a reference to Iaian "holding a gun to her head". Victoria chose to allow all of the events occur up until she was sentenced to punishment at the white bear park.
my favourite episode!! thank you for breaking it down to help
White bear was one of the most coldest episode yet I've seen, it was clear to me that this torment was wrongfully done. If she deserves this then people who drink and drive deserve the same thing.
Evna you must have not seen Playtest yet huh?
sidneyyclaire I wouldn't call playtest cold, though.
Evna Drinking and Driving is bad and it kills people accidentally but this bitch was not on drugs or any alcohol when she and her husband abducted and killed that little girl and worst of all she video taped it just for the fun of it, worthless fuckers like her and her husband makes me sick and people like them actually exist out there in the world but i do agree however that what the public is doing is totally wrong and that's just makes them worse than her but i guess the death of that little girl fucked them up so much that they had no other choice but to toture her and do the same thing that she did to that innocent kid which is totally messed up and wrong for the public and the victims family, they could've at least put her in a small cell for life without any food and water and just pretend that she does not exist at all instead of doing all that weird crap to her
Edwin williams lmao so you think the punishment of basically starving her to death in a cell is more fitting? you are just as bad as the people in this episode.
oh really? She got EXACTLY what she deserved. Put your self in her situation. If it was your baby girl. You'd want the same, or something close.
For what ever reason i want to see a series
The twist in this episode shocked me so much that I became paranoid every episode after it was going to do the same twist
Just discovered your channel and I love these videos mate, Black Mirror is just an unbelievable show! Subscribed and look forward to more 👊
Harry Robinson And we share the same name, people like you warm my heart man thanks for stopping by!
Harry's Moving Castle genuinely pal, with the quality of your content you deserve way more subs! What's your Twitter handle I'll drop you a follow you're a sound guy
Harry Robinson Links in the description mate
Harry's Moving Castle cheers pal
The parade reminds me of 1984's Two Minutes Hate... They're directing anger towards something they've been told is bad... but do they really know enough to be able to argue their own case?
No one fucking deserves this, this is just fucking sick beyond belief. This makes the death penalty look like 30 minutes in the corner.
Exactly
This is a brilliant analysis. I posted it on my Facebook page this morning. Thank you for the work you put into it. I look forward to watching your other ones. Black Mirror has got to be one of the best television series I have ever seen. It is much like "Tales of the Unexpected" and "The Twilight Zone" from years ago. Love you work! Lisa
I had been procrastinating watching White Bear, because Be Right Back really freaked me out. But I wanted to watch your analysis so I sucked it up. It was still effed up, but I'm glad I could finally watch your analysis of it. Great vid! Can't wait till season 4 comes out, so that hopefully you analyse those too!
I saw this episode as a great metaphor for the value of human life. If it is the criminals or refugees of Syria/Iraq/etc., many tend to value human life less, and papers are making money with the stories. Here the people are paying the fee to the park to see it closely, although in real life we only get to witness these sort of problems from a far, at the same time judging people without seeing their faces, hearing their stories.
Excellent! Love the channel and black mirror. Keep it up mate
been waiting for more of these, thanks
Love your analysis vids! Keep up the great work :)
why doesn't this channel have millions of subscribers? The content/script are all great!
This has changed my perspective on justice. When a newstory breaks about a particularly heinous crime like murder or rape, a lot of people think about all these creative punishments we would “ideally” put the criminals through. But does that make us any better than them?
I started black mirro just today. And i effin love it. This episode got me hooked so bad.
I love your black mirror analysis videos. Can't wait for the next one!
Something I noticed after watching this episode again last night she seems to be remembering the events that's going to happen to her such as when they first meet Baxter she knows his hideout is in the woods to which he says "oh and how do you know that" also the other women she's with who's name escapes me at the moment pretty much try's to ignore her when she freaks out at the "radio tower"
Legs05 wait you cant remember her name? Did you get white beared too?
I just love your analyses. Well done again!
im really liking these videos glad i found this channel looking forward to your take on "shut up and dance"
I feel like the only reason they wiped her memory at the end of each day was because she begs them to kill her at the end of each day. If she doesn't remember anything, she'll be ready to fear for her life all over again. It's pretty sick. What's more fucked up is that it wouldn't matter how much remorse she showed after learning about what she did, they're just going to keep torturing her till she's a freaking vegetable.
Exactly. I genuinely think those people are more evil than Victoria herself was.
I loved the social commentary on the idea that the public seeks what it perceives to be justice more so for its own satisfaction, and not so much for actual punishment. I.e. We punish criminals in order to make ourselves feel better about the crime (not to actually punish the perpetrator) and ultimately get enjoyment and pleasure for ourselves.
Do we though? There are registered sex offenders living quietly in every major city in America. Nobody's torturing them. This was more like a witch hunt.
yes!!! im super excited to watch this. gotta comment before I finish it :). so close to white Christmas..
good review man, looking forward to the rest!
This episode was the second episode I watched from black mirror and to this day it still leaves me fucked up and gives me chills
I think maybe the writer of this episode might have got the idea from the Ian Brandy and Myra Hindley who captured, tortured and killed children while recording the children.
I thought the same. Uncanny similarity to The Leslie Ann Downey abduction. Particularly because that crime is the one where Myra Hindley was regarding as being equal to Ian Brady because of her complicity.
This was an analysis? You just summed up what the episode was about
Megawatt Apps Yeah, not as much depth as I'm used to in basic reviews. He didn't really state what her crime was and how the torture paralleled that.
Frosted Fakes They abducted a child but that was not the full scope of the crime or even why they decided her punishment. Because she taped what happened and just watched her husband abuse that girl they decided to do the same to her. This was not fully explained in the review.
His other reviews were better. This was 9 minutes. Check others. it's 14 minutes full of commentary and not summary
Grace Eclavea You are right. It’s another reason this review seemed lackluster.
@@micahwilliams1332 wait so what was her crime??
Very glad im watching this on october 17 and not october 18th haha
Just started watching your videos, halfway through my binge :) keep it up
I really enjoyed this. The analysis stayed away from the obvious, choosing instead to ask deeper questions, which I really appreciate.
People seem to get the impression that this episode is about the extremity of certain types of punishments against criminals, but I think it is really going for something else entirely. The episode is more of a commentary of how the justice system and the prison system currently function in many countries across the world, where the prison exists for the sake of punishment and not for the sake of rehabilitation. It exists in its current condition, not because it is actually effective or efficient, but because it provides resolve to peoples' obsession with revenge. The fact that she lost her memory is hardly just a plot convenience tool. They are punishing another person at that point, and likewise, it draws a parallel to criminals who have reformed and have morally become different people. It is not about the amount of punishment or the extremity of it at all, really. It is the fact that prison exists as a place to punish in the first place, rather than a place for people to repent and become a new person.
This episode really reminds me of an episode of Derren Brown ‘Apocalypse.’ He hypnotises a man and has him wake up in the middle of an apocalypse and there are actors and zombies playing along. It is very realistic and I believe his Mum put him forward for the show as he wasn’t spending enough time with her.
this is brilliant, thank you for the video!
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I wish people would focus more on rehabilitation than punishment. It doesn’t really solve anything, it just helps people feel better about themselves for a brief moment.
But there is a reason why humans have a desire for revenge. Especially back in prehistoric times. There is a small percentage of humans that don't feel empathy and act sadistic and cruel as a result. This can be either genetically or due to their life experiences. Those tribes who killed or hurt those people as revenge prevailed, because it prevented those people from doing such a thing in the future, as well as setting an example for other psychopaths.
So, killing a brutal and barbaric psychopath is a different thing than killing innocent people.
As far as property crime, drug offences or smaller violent deeds go, rehabilitation is definetly the way to go, but do you really think you could release child murderers, serial killers, serial rapists or child molesters back into everydays society? Brutal revenge might keep a few psychopaths from commiting those deeds in the first place. Plus, those people won't get another chance to kill or hurt people, however, if you want to rehabilitate them, a few of them will relapse eventually.
The episode makes a good commentary on the privatized prison sector or "prisons for profit" that have become more prevalent of lately. These prisons have been accused of having subpar conditions and treating the prisoners as less than human. However people who have chosen to speak out about this have been accused of being supporters of "rapest and murders", but I think we're all smart enough to know that not every legal case is as cut and dry as those two crimes.
Does anyone else feel like “justice park” is an Orwellian-esque term for concentration camp?
Haha I'm so happy you put that clip of tyres in at the very end!!! 😂👌🏻
I love that after every episode I honestly have trouble deciding if the technology or concept presented would be a good thing or not. Like for days I find myself pondering the ramifications of the concept. This show is just pure brilliance.
Episodes like these just prove that no one is born bad. Remove the memories that caused someone to get to that point and they wouldn’t do it again, so why not just use technology this advanced to do that instead?
because if potential violent criminals knew that their only punishment would be a mind-wipe, then they would have no reason not to commit violent crimes.
For me, this episode shows that even if we are innocent, we (or the society idk) don't act better as if we were guilty. Nobody is innocent.
THANK YOU! I’m so damn glad I found your channel! This makes a huge amount of sense, now! Like you said in a way each day she wakes up she’ll be in more pain. She’ll do this reapeatly everyday till she pretty much is bruise to death and can’t do it anymore. Like you also said the show much go on. Those I have one question what did they do to the husband? How did they kill him.
must*
Subscribed. I really misjudged your channel before. I wasn't fond of your first analysis, but I was very impressed with this piece. You've helped me appreciate an episode of Black Mirror I had misjudged.
Regarding this episode - it is one (if not the) best episodes of Black Mirror. It does everything right by having the audience empathise with the women before it shows us what is really going on. At that point I think it is more of a social commentary regarding our obsession with technology and how it allows us to see every aspect of what we are being shown (but importantly not the whole truth).
Black mirror often sets up the "bad guy" as the "good guy" - I think to deliberately get us to think through the consequences of our actions and desires. Who hasn't said that if someone hurts their child, they'd want the person who did it tortured and hurt over and over again or to be given 5 minutes alone with them in their cell, just to beat them up or even kill them.
I hope the 2nd half of series 3 is more like series 1 & 2 rather than the more formulated episodes series 3 is currently showing. Maybe they've kept the best until last?