❤What a lovely family. We would all love a son like Glyn not only is he a delightful young man, he has done a fantastic job of fitting the Heat Pump system. Well done.👏👏👏❤
Great to see and hear that your parents are happy with the heating and feeling in the house. It's perhaps one of the most overlooked aspects of having a well designed and installed heat pump that they provide a much nicer even consistent heat without the ups and downs of other heating options.
Just installing my heat pump this month. The "normal" survey suggested a 8kW (or more!) but my measured gas data says otherwise - 3.5kW will probably be enough. I used "Michaeal de Podesta" system for estimating heat pump size. I'm installing a 5kW for a little head room. I am glad that cycling isn't a problem as I think that will happen. I replaced my combi boiler for hot water and I'm running on just the 3kW heater for my 300l cylinder. I installed a "Recoup" waste water heat recovery system. We're a family of 5 and my electric hot water bill is about the same as the previous gas heating bill. Amazing! I can't wait to see what it'll be with the heat pump heating my water.
Those are really impressive results - no wonder your parents are so proud! Hard to believe how little electricity it takes to keep the house toasty warm on a well-designed heat pump system. Well done!
Glyn that was beyond excellent, it is useful to have 300 days of quality data which also vindicates your design decisions. Really useful section on the ACH factor and the merits of the door blower test - it is equally important to the basic heat loss calculation. The bottom line from your Mum and Dad’s perspective is that it has transformed their comfort and bills.
I think the fact that Glyn's parents are retired has also helped the small 5kW ASHP heat their home. As retired people they will not be going in and out of the house as often as a busy family would, so air changes due to doors being used will also be minimised. (The measured ACH figure is only reflecting the air changes occuring through the building fabric).
@@tlangdon12 Interesting perspective. When we were working we went out in the morning and came back in the evening. Now, retired - I am in out of the house several times a day as is the wife not as an activity in itself but associated with the many activities we are engaged in around the house, garden, man shed and in the community. Please do not equate retirement with vegetating - I am busier now than I ever was at work except I am busier 7 days a week, rather than 5.😉
@@tlangdon12I would say the opposite, if they went out to work all day the doors would only be opened and closed at the beginning and end of the day. Since they're home all day they are going in and out much more, they have a small holding and a large veg garden so are working outside and coming in for tea brakes etc most days.
@@normanboyes4983yes, it's the same for my parents. They're constantly on the go working outside and popping out the see friends etc. So the are in and out of the house much more than I'd they worked a 9-5 job
Informative video... 👏 Installed ours 3 years ago. Have relatives in Sweden that used heatpumps for years already. The heatpump just works brilliantly.
Good video. As a resident of Wales, I've head some people who live over 1000ft, not having a great experience with air-source heat pumps, and have reverted back to oil - which is the main source of heating for more rural locations. Living on the Clwydian Range, we rarely see temperatures drop to -20C in winter, but often experience weeks where temperatures do not exceed 0C. From your detailed explanation, it sounds as if the house which reverted back to oil, probably had an incorrect, sized heat pump. The cost savings are significant, compared to fluxuating oil prices. With that said, electric seems to be ramping up in cost, due to demand, also compounded by the fact that the UK doesn't have the necessary additional nuclear, or other clean energy supplies - for its self-destructive path to net zero - which is literally impossible, a fantasy - regardless of the reduction in peak energy usage for traditional heating systems, moreover; EVs being charged overnight, consuming more energy. Balancing the grid is a challenge, but projecting demands and preparing for a clean electric future isn't rocket science. I'm looking forward to replacing my oil boiler IF heat pumps are pratical in my environment.
Excellent video, ευχαριστώ πολύ from an EmonPi user in Greece. I've caught up with it late, but happily via your post on Bluesky, glad to find you there. Reverseable air con here, cooling during the long hot summer, heating during the short cool winter, unfortunately I can only monitor electricity consumption and room temperature.
Laughing my socks off here with Glys's dad. We've had our heat pump just under 4 years, before we had a gas boiler but also used wood burning stoves when it was really cold. I've had 1 fire since the heat pump was installed (Christmas Day) and also have no clue about the weather outside. In fact I've had to add "outdoor temp" to my home assistant screen too.
Completely relate to the two 'negatives' spoken about. Had an ASHP fitted in April, no longer need to light the wood burner and the balanced even temperature through the house means you don't feel the fluctuations that we did with an oil fired boiler. We've not had a full winter with the ASHP but so far, we've been delighted with the performance, impact of living conditions in our house and getting off fossil fuels.
Another excellent VLOG Glyn, thankyou. I am very sceptical about the whole green thing but I admire what you've done and we did install solar panels on this house when we moved here back from Italy in 2018 and they've been a great investment. I couldn't make the numbers work for all but a very small battery (we are a retired couple with no EV and no big power appliances and can do the washing and diswashing when the sun shines), but I finally was convinced that it made sense with the newer Octopus tariffs and installed a Tesla Powerwall 2 in March. We have had excellent savings from it so far and are on course to pay it off in 8-10 years even at current prices, which I thing can only get worse - who said that recently ? :/ Plus we have the security of home backup if (or more likely when) the grid falters under the strain of the Net Zero demands. We bought a new combi boiler when we moved in here as well and that is very efficient. We have a log burner for the coldest days, and we also used a smart switch on the solar so we could power a fan heater in the living room when we were generating for "free" heating. I need to look at that again and decide whether it is better to sell that power to the grid during the day or use some of it for heating to reduce gas costs. I don't think that it would make any sense for us to replace that 6yo boiler with an ASHP at the moment given that we'd probably need an extra couple of radiators downstairs that would not be very easy. We typically have the heating come on at 7 with the thermostat set to 20C and that goes off well before 10 and we can usually keep going until late afternoon when it comes on again at 4 with the thermostat set at 21 until 9pm. We wouldn't like a house as warm all day as your parents even though I am not very active with COPD and arthritis and we definitely don;' like hot bedrooms. I would be more interested in installing an MVHR as it would be fairly easily done with the unit on one external wall (that could be insulated at the same time) and ducting through the attic. Have you any thoughts about how effective they are if they include a heating element (and a cooling option for the summer)? We would hopefully be able to rurn off at least the bedroom rads and keep them warm with air blown round the house from the living room. Ours is a standard square detached house built in the 60s I think, with some cavity wall insulation and PVC double glazing. It was last given an EPC rating of D, but that was before I added another 100mm of insulation in the loft and floored it in which made the house much cosier. Our Octopus estimated gas usage is just over 9.000 kWh pa. I look forward to any comments you may have.
Great video and you did the right dimension. And the best thing you did was to change the radiators to a bigger dimension. Change the last one in the Kitchen and make a thermal camera view of the radiators to se how efficient the cooling is over the radiators. If not great adjust the flow of the seberate radiator in the radiator valve. The you get a greater cop and try to adjust the heating curve a little lower 😊 Bonus wold have bin to mount radiators with 3 plades instead of 2.
Brilliant video and such impressive results. The analysis is really useful. I will do a similar analysis of my heat pump after 1 year. Like your pareants I am thrilled with the performance and the insight that the open energy monitot system gives me
Great job and video Glyn, just some minor feedback on the video, I would recommend you spell check everything before releasing :) Also I would say the fades were too abrupt, they started fading (and quite quickly) whilst people were still talking, it could've done with an extra second or so to allow the person to finish their sentence before fading :) Otherwise it was very clear and well presented, good job!
Thanks for the feedback, that's very useful, I tried to edit the video to be succinct and not be too long, but I may have gone a bit OTT with this! Where did you notice the spelling mistake? I struggle with dyslexia and am totally blind to spelling mistakes, so always try and spell check everything! I guess something slipped through :-(
Seems to me that we need actual ‘heating engineers’ to install these, not guys that have done a week course and spend 90% of their time installing gas boilers, who then call themselves ‘engineers’. We need people that truly understand heat loss and are willing to spend a few more hours doing calculations.
Yes, heat pumps do require a bit more calculation and planning than a gas boiler, but there are good software tools and resources available to help. I did the design and self-installed this system, this is covered in this video th-cam.com/video/bHsp7fDw_bg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Quxi8NsdM96ZpjIc
@@GlynHudson . Thanks for the reply Glyn, very impressed with your work and attention to detail. The problem we seem to have is a gas fitter can easily make £100k a year just fitting new boilers and servicing them.chuck in a 30kwh gas boiler and it will work - sort of! We need thousands of heat pump installers, capable of making these calculations and servicing them.
@@bordersw1239 agree, it's probably one of the biggest problems in the industry. But there are a lot of transferable skills from boiler installation. The tools available to do heat loss calcs are improving all the time. The air changes issue is being somewhat address in the next revision of CIBSE
As well as being able to do the calculations, we also need engineers to commit to returning to the property to tweak the systems they have installed. It probably only needs two visits, but if engineers see this as being a problem for them, they won't do it and customers will be left with sub-optimal installations. It would be best to include two reviews of the system performance in the contract you agree with the heating engineers, so that you can hold them to account.
To my mind the issue is that gas boilers are being installed without regards to heatloss calcs. Then they're left to run inefficiently, with owners wondering why their bills are so high.
Thanks for sharing the analysis of the data - I’ve been running my own calcs in heatpunk and the air changes seems to be the determining factor compared to fabric losses - the blower test should be mandatory I reckon - I need to do this really as it could be the difference between a 5kW or 8kW I think- 190m2 2002 bungalow 🤔
Thanks, yes a door blower test is a useful exercise in its own right. It's also important to check the HP manufacturer's data a 5kW Vaillant can actually output 6.8kW at -3C, while a 5kW Samsung can only output 4.7kW at -3C. This data will be built into heatpunk if you're using that.
@@GlynHudson thanks, yes the output values are a bit of a can of worms it seems - I've been looking into the new Samsung R290 models and the data for those seems to be a bit more accurate than the last gen when you deep dive into the data sheets (no heatpumpmonitor data for those yet it seems) - the Vaillant would give some headroom but at a cost 😬
Ever thought about linking up solid fuel with a heat pump? So in the really cold winter time you can light your stove and it will top up the heating system plus you still retain the nice look of the fire?
There's no need, the heat pump is efficient on its own, there's no need for the sold stove. The idea was to negate the need to use the stove. Connecting the stove into the system would have added a lot of complexity e.g buffer tank which would have reduced the efficiency of the heat pump with no gain. The stove is still in place there, they can still use it rare event of a power outage.
Been working on heat pumps since 1979, not much I dont know. But unfortunately I cant seem to find the figures they are producing. First you have to live in the correct property, snd the vast majority do not. £450000 is a good starting point and mortgage rates at about 4-5 per cent. Never ever cut back on output, thats the golden rule , remember that as the outdoor temp falls at the most critical winter time the output, efficiency, falls, and back up electric heating is required.
Hi Glyn, This video popped up on my feed. I am very curious, although you have used the actual ACH did you do any airtightness remedying or insulation work prior to the installation of the HP on either house? I would like to Thank you for providing us with the info and how-to because I have been contemplating doing this on my own house 1983 bungalow in Dublin. Regards Greg
@@gregmooney7363 Hi Greg, no we didn't do any insulating or air tightness work prior to installing the HP. However, make sure you get your own heatloss calculation done since heatloss demand will vary between different properties.
Great video.If you were to do this at another property which wasn't your parents would you consider going to a smaller size heat pump? For the UK it feels like we could adjust our design approach to not focus on the coldest days of the year since it only ever happens a couple times and so the system is "oversized" for the vast majority of it's life. This would lead to smaller and cheaper units for all.
No, I don't think there would be any benefit to a smaller unit. Modern heat pumps have good degree minute based algorithms when cycling, so there's not much loss in performance, and inverter driven compressors don't mind cycling as much. It's also important to ensure the heating works well when it's cold! I guess if you were happy to use a wood stove on very cold days you could consider fitting an undersized unit, but this would not be allowed under MCS
@@GlynHudson A combined gas/ASHP system like the Intergas Xtend could be a good option for bigger properties as the ASHP can work efficiently for 90% of the days and the gas boiler can take over on the coldest days (and be a backup heat souce if the ASHP is down for any reason)
Guessing the ASHP relies on a constant electricity supply? In the event of a lengthy disruption, what alternative heating system would your parents revert to, presumably the wood burner? Thanks.
Gas and oil boilers also need a constant supply of electricity to run. My parents have a home battery which can run the heat pump, but if it was a prolonged outage they still have the wood burner they can use. It's very rare to get more than 12 hrs without power.
Another great video Glyn, thanks. We've been though the mill with delays on an Octopus ASHP install after they deemed it necessary to get planning. That proved to be a Pandoras box of problems until I came up with a simple solution to allow the install to go ahead under permitted development so fingers crossed! My only concern is that despite what seemed to be a thorough survey they have decided we need a 16Kw pump which seems excessive for a 1930's semi (with a lot of more modern extensions and loft conversions and double glazing), even though it has 5 bedrooms. I calculated using HeatPunk and got around 10Kw. Should I get them to do an air loss (or do one myself)?
Thanks, I can't comment about Octopus, I don't have any experience or knowledge of their processes. If your house is not particularly drafty, and you have well-fitted doors and windows, then you can usually safely drop the ACH down to 0.5. Have a look at what difference this makes in Heat Punk. It's a good exercise in its own right to get a door blower test done, I would recommend it. It's very useful to be able to see exactly where the drafts are coming from, often they can be easily rectified.
@@GlynHudson That sounds like a good plan. The Octopus quote was low enough to be considered a bargain (after the Gov grant) given the amount of work; some replacement rads, hot water cylinder and pump etc. for me to want to hold on to them if possible. I'll see if Google throws up anyone doing the air loss measurements locally (or hiring the equipment) to Manchester.
Yes, same delays and indecision by Octopus with me too. Had a £500 deposit with them since Dec last year, they did a comprehensive survey in April " simple straight forward install" they said. Then in August they suddenly informed me that planning permission was required, I contacted my local authority who said it didn't need planning consent as it was permitted development, so I contacted Octopus again. They then said that there was an issue with the noise emission. Now they state they want to do another survey!Octopus Meanwhile as it has been so long since my quote, I ran their quotation tool in their website to discover it was now quoted at a 1/4 the cost of my initial quote! Again I have emailed them requesting an explanation for the cost disparity....I'm still waiting for a response. The only reason that I'm hanging on to them is my preference for the Cosy6 that Greg Jackson raved about in his launch presentation last year as I preferred the aesthetics of it and that it has been designed from the ground up (supposed) to be the most efficient. I'm getting at the end of my tether with the delays and excuses, such that I am going to give them to the end of the week to give a satisfactory proposal and imminent install date, otherwise I will be having British Gas to install, their price was a lot more competitive at £685 all-in-one and didn't raise any objections to the proposed installation location. Are you waiting for the Cosy6? Or is it the usual Daikin that they otherwise propose?
@@David-bl1bt £685 with BG, that's a bargain! They quoted me £9k, after the grant, for a 3 bed, 20s semi with double glazing and 30cm of loft insulation. Octopus came in at £2k but like you I'm waiting for a Cosy.
I have been going back and forth with the heat pump scenario, heard good things and bad things , basically really don’t know which is correct , listening to this video tend to think it all depends on the installer because watching a couple of videos by two gentlemen who tend to workout why peoples heat pumps are not as efficient as they should be , it always comes back with the installer not being up to the job or lack of experience, the urban plumber and heat geek are the best in my opinion but somewhat oblivious you yourself has to be in the same club , I think if you were to install my system then I don’t think I would so undecided , peace of mind with confidence in others is hard to find .
Hi, thanks for your comment. Any installer which has done HeatGeek training course or equivalent course on hydronic design should be able to install a good heat pump system. I would recommend looking at heatpumpmonitor.org/ and finding an installer near you. Or going with www.heatgeek.com if you want the best system. HeatGeek no offer a performance guarantee for total piece of mind.
@@GlynHudson I think the words should be able puts me off straight away , it’s not what you look at that counts. It’s what you see , personally I would only have it done by you or the Urban plumber, so unfortunately will still be using my old gas boiler then , who knows you might have a gap in your schedule at some point , you can have me as a backup if any gaps appear. Thanks though for your reply , that video I just watched probably one of the best I’ve seen from a novice person in regards to heat pump knowledge, thanks again , take care .
@@KavanOBrien as I mentioned heatgeek offer a performance guarantee, i.e if they state the system will get a SCOP of 4 they will monitor it and if it under performs they will rectify for free until it hits the claimed performance. I hope I've demonstrated in my videos that installing a good performing heatpump system is that difficult, it just requires slightly different skills compared to average gas boiler installation. Although gas boiler efficiency also also benefits from weather compensation and correct radiator sizing.
@@GlynHudson I appreciate your recommendations and your time in replying to me , being 66 now seen and heard a lot in life and I know the only two people who I would want to convert me to the world of heat pump life are as I said either you or the urban gentleman , other than that scenario irrespective of guarantees just would not be my cup of tea , so as said if not possible by yourselves, then I won’t have one , time of life I know I won’t change my mind = call it getting old or just bloody minded, I wish you well on your path of life , Take care.
I'm honored that you feel that way, but there's lots of good installers out there, I'm only ever installed a couple of heat pumps! Most of what I've learnt has come from watching heat geek TH-cam videos!
Yes, it is. However, Vaillant runs a fixed speed flow during heating. Here's a link to the data with the flow rate enabled on the graph: emoncms.org/app/view?name=MyHeatpump&readkey=871ad5efb8f20f698f12d751aea9b8a6&mode=power&start=1726354800&end=1726397100&flow=1
Very interesting video. I've only got an air to air airsource heatpump and have octopus go so only have 4 hours at 8.5p and rest time it's 24pkwh . Would it be more efficient to install air to water? What I like about mine is you can switch on and within 15 mins living room goes from 7 degrees to 20 and then it cycles at about 350w to keep temp up. Love your videos :) glad your parents are happy with the install and living in a warm house, storage heaters are awful for heat spikes
Thanks, A2W is generally more efficient and comfortable for heating than A2A, but as you mention A2A has several advantages including fast re-heat and cooling. If you're happy with A2A, there's no reason to change it
@@hotrodchris805 it's got standard 1980s loft Insulation and a couple of walls have cavity wall insulation, it's not too bad. I've also installed a heat pump in my house which is a 1800 sold stone property without any insulation in the walls or the floor, a heat pump still fine and gets excellent performance. A heatpump can heat any property as long as the system is correctly designed: th-cam.com/video/kkNx2oSO-S4/w-d-xo.html
The cost is not really relevant, in this case, since the main cost of a heat pump installation is labour. You can google the cost of the heat pump itself, it's only a small % of overall cost if labour was included.
Heat loss calculations don't bear much relation to reality because they ignore any solar gain, house appliances, TVs, light bulbs, pets or people - all chucking out heat. All the electricity we use (aside from heating) doesn't just disappear - at some point it's converted to heat which the heat loss calcs totally ignore as far as sizing is concenred. Always best to undersize and keep a couple of sweaters handy just in case.
Underfloor heating and a lovely gas condensing boiler at a cost 3 times less than air source and low heat rads and no need to boost hot water temps. This was choice for a 1970s bungalow i just bought. Plus i cant see rads or an ugly heat pump and pipe overkill and i have the kit installed in a room not contami ated by multiple items of equipment. You are being taken for mugs.
Take a look the data on heatpumpmonitor.org/#mode=costs&tariff=agile, heat pumps can deliver heat at less than 4p/kWh, this is lower cost than mains gas. However, mains gas is not an option for this property, so a heat pump is by far the cheapest option. Especially combined with solar PV
Interested in your airtightness assumptions. 0.35ach on an old bungalow, even passive house standard os 0.6 ach? Having just built a house which achieved 0.6 on airtightness test, I'm flabbergasted flabbergasted to see h you have 0.35?
@@andrewturner-h2v ah, the confusion is that it’s not passive levels of Airtightness. Passive levels of Airtightness of like 0.6 are measured @50 Pa whereas it’s just having an ACH of 0.6 is like 12 ACH@50 Pa. Hope that helps!
Ah, thanks, that makes sense. Out of interest then, his blower test is just simply measuring time to blow his specific volume of air into the property?
@@GlynHudson I havent a problem with heat pumps for modern highly insulated standard homes but have seen too many compromises when retro fitting such systems into older housing stock designed to wholly different standards. I should declare I am a Chartered Building Surveyor and have inspected many compromised properties with under performing heat pump specs and attempts to overcome. But good luck.
@@johnnettleton7711 if the heat pump system it correctly designed, it can heat any house very efficiently with lower running costs then gas. Too often the system is not properly designed and incorrectly installed.
❤What a lovely family. We would all love a son like Glyn not only is he a delightful young man, he has done a fantastic job of fitting the Heat Pump system. Well done.👏👏👏❤
Excellent video. Nice to see some actual knowledge & experience rather than daily mail esq bad press about them
What a great vlog for showing how to achieve a good heat pump retrofit.Thank you.
I never thought about it, but your Dad is absolutely right - you really have no idea as to what the outside temperature is
Great to see and hear that your parents are happy with the heating and feeling in the house. It's perhaps one of the most overlooked aspects of having a well designed and installed heat pump that they provide a much nicer even consistent heat without the ups and downs of other heating options.
Agree, it's hard to communicate how much more comfortable low temperature heating is
It's great to see that the heat pump is able to acheive the relatively high room temperatures that old people tend to require.
Just installing my heat pump this month. The "normal" survey suggested a 8kW (or more!) but my measured gas data says otherwise - 3.5kW will probably be enough. I used "Michaeal de Podesta" system for estimating heat pump size. I'm installing a 5kW for a little head room. I am glad that cycling isn't a problem as I think that will happen.
I replaced my combi boiler for hot water and I'm running on just the 3kW heater for my 300l cylinder. I installed a "Recoup" waste water heat recovery system. We're a family of 5 and my electric hot water bill is about the same as the previous gas heating bill. Amazing! I can't wait to see what it'll be with the heat pump heating my water.
Those are really impressive results - no wonder your parents are so proud! Hard to believe how little electricity it takes to keep the house toasty warm on a well-designed heat pump system. Well done!
Thanks, yes it's bonkers! Heat pumps are totally magic how they create energy from thin air (literally) 😂
Glyn that was beyond excellent, it is useful to have 300 days of quality data which also vindicates your design decisions. Really useful section on the ACH factor and the merits of the door blower test - it is equally important to the basic heat loss calculation. The bottom line from your Mum and Dad’s perspective is that it has transformed their comfort and bills.
I think the fact that Glyn's parents are retired has also helped the small 5kW ASHP heat their home. As retired people they will not be going in and out of the house as often as a busy family would, so air changes due to doors being used will also be minimised. (The measured ACH figure is only reflecting the air changes occuring through the building fabric).
@@tlangdon12 Interesting perspective. When we were working we went out in the morning and came back in the evening. Now, retired - I am in out of the house several times a day as is the wife not as an activity in itself but associated with the many activities we are engaged in around the house, garden, man shed and in the community. Please do not equate retirement with vegetating - I am busier now than I ever was at work except I am busier 7 days a week, rather than 5.😉
@@tlangdon12I would say the opposite, if they went out to work all day the doors would only be opened and closed at the beginning and end of the day. Since they're home all day they are going in and out much more, they have a small holding and a large veg garden so are working outside and coming in for tea brakes etc most days.
@@normanboyes4983yes, it's the same for my parents. They're constantly on the go working outside and popping out the see friends etc. So the are in and out of the house much more than I'd they worked a 9-5 job
Actually measuing the ACH with a blower door and not just using the CIBSE assumption was a stroke of genius. Well done!
Informative video... 👏 Installed ours 3 years ago. Have relatives in Sweden that used heatpumps for years already. The heatpump just works brilliantly.
The data says it all, excellent design and planning makes the difference 👍
Good video. As a resident of Wales, I've head some people who live over 1000ft, not having a great experience with air-source heat pumps, and have reverted back to oil - which is the main source of heating for more rural locations. Living on the Clwydian Range, we rarely see temperatures drop to -20C in winter, but often experience weeks where temperatures do not exceed 0C.
From your detailed explanation, it sounds as if the house which reverted back to oil, probably had an incorrect, sized heat pump.
The cost savings are significant, compared to fluxuating oil prices. With that said, electric seems to be ramping up in cost, due to demand, also compounded by the fact that the UK doesn't have the necessary additional nuclear, or other clean energy supplies - for its self-destructive path to net zero - which is literally impossible, a fantasy - regardless of the reduction in peak energy usage for traditional heating systems, moreover; EVs being charged overnight, consuming more energy.
Balancing the grid is a challenge, but projecting demands and preparing for a clean electric future isn't rocket science.
I'm looking forward to replacing my oil boiler IF heat pumps are pratical in my environment.
@@jonescd76 Sweden, Norway are heated almost entirely with heat pumps and are a lot colder than Wales!
Excellent video, ευχαριστώ πολύ from an EmonPi user in Greece. I've caught up with it late, but happily via your post on Bluesky, glad to find you there. Reverseable air con here, cooling during the long hot summer, heating during the short cool winter, unfortunately I can only monitor electricity consumption and room temperature.
Laughing my socks off here with Glys's dad. We've had our heat pump just under 4 years, before we had a gas boiler but also used wood burning stoves when it was really cold. I've had 1 fire since the heat pump was installed (Christmas Day) and also have no clue about the weather outside. In fact I've had to add "outdoor temp" to my home assistant screen too.
Haha fantastic!
such a great video. with proof that retrofitting works and well. this video deserves to be shared wide and far. thank you 👍
Thank you: Excellent video with a good combination of operating data and vox pops (and vox moms)
Thanks Michael! Hope you are well
Completely relate to the two 'negatives' spoken about. Had an ASHP fitted in April, no longer need to light the wood burner and the balanced even temperature through the house means you don't feel the fluctuations that we did with an oil fired boiler. We've not had a full winter with the ASHP but so far, we've been delighted with the performance, impact of living conditions in our house and getting off fossil fuels.
Beautifully made video.
Excellent video, great for those considering the move👍
Another excellent VLOG Glyn, thankyou.
I am very sceptical about the whole green thing but I admire what you've done and we did install solar panels on this house when we moved here back from Italy in 2018 and they've been a great investment.
I couldn't make the numbers work for all but a very small battery (we are a retired couple with no EV and no big power appliances and can do the washing and diswashing when the sun shines), but I finally was convinced that it made sense with the newer Octopus tariffs and installed a Tesla Powerwall 2 in March. We have had excellent savings from it so far and are on course to pay it off in 8-10 years even at current prices, which I thing can only get worse - who said that recently ? :/
Plus we have the security of home backup if (or more likely when) the grid falters under the strain of the Net Zero demands.
We bought a new combi boiler when we moved in here as well and that is very efficient. We have a log burner for the coldest days, and we also used a smart switch on the solar so we could power a fan heater in the living room when we were generating for "free" heating. I need to look at that again and decide whether it is better to sell that power to the grid during the day or use some of it for heating to reduce gas costs.
I don't think that it would make any sense for us to replace that 6yo boiler with an ASHP at the moment given that we'd probably need an extra couple of radiators downstairs that would not be very easy. We typically have the heating come on at 7 with the thermostat set to 20C and that goes off well before 10 and we can usually keep going until late afternoon when it comes on again at 4 with the thermostat set at 21 until 9pm. We wouldn't like a house as warm all day as your parents even though I am not very active with COPD and arthritis and we definitely don;' like hot bedrooms.
I would be more interested in installing an MVHR as it would be fairly easily done with the unit on one external wall (that could be insulated at the same time) and ducting through the attic.
Have you any thoughts about how effective they are if they include a heating element (and a cooling option for the summer)?
We would hopefully be able to rurn off at least the bedroom rads and keep them warm with air blown round the house from the living room.
Ours is a standard square detached house built in the 60s I think, with some cavity wall insulation and PVC double glazing. It was last given an EPC rating of D, but that was before I added another 100mm of insulation in the loft and floored it in which made the house much cosier. Our Octopus estimated gas usage is just over 9.000 kWh pa.
I look forward to any comments you may have.
Great video and you did the right dimension. And the best thing you did was to change the radiators to a bigger dimension. Change the last one in the Kitchen and make a thermal camera view of the radiators to se how efficient the cooling is over the radiators. If not great adjust the flow of the seberate radiator in the radiator valve.
The you get a greater cop and try to adjust the heating curve a little lower 😊
Bonus wold have bin to mount radiators with 3 plades instead of 2.
Brilliant video and such impressive results. The analysis is really useful. I will do a similar analysis of my heat pump after 1 year. Like your pareants I am thrilled with the performance and the insight that the open energy monitot system gives me
Thanks Hugh! Really enjoyed your video also
I bet your mum and dad would have loved to have that ASHP installed several decades ago.
Yes, indeed!
Great video Glyn. FYI You need to change the video title "1890's Bungalow ... "
Also, it's "experience"
Thanks! Good spot, been fixed
Where is this errror?
@@GlynHudsonit appears at least three times in black and white static cards:
2:47, 8:32, 13:13
It really is spooky how it is harder to tell what the temperature is outdoors - nice spooky though !
What a wonderful video!
Diolch Glyn, stwff gwych. Thanks Glyn, great stuff.
Great job and video Glyn, just some minor feedback on the video, I would recommend you spell check everything before releasing :) Also I would say the fades were too abrupt, they started fading (and quite quickly) whilst people were still talking, it could've done with an extra second or so to allow the person to finish their sentence before fading :) Otherwise it was very clear and well presented, good job!
Thanks for the feedback, that's very useful, I tried to edit the video to be succinct and not be too long, but I may have gone a bit OTT with this! Where did you notice the spelling mistake? I struggle with dyslexia and am totally blind to spelling mistakes, so always try and spell check everything! I guess something slipped through :-(
@@GlynHudson 'Experience' not 'Experiance' on the captions...
Seems to me that we need actual ‘heating engineers’ to install these, not guys that have done a week course and spend 90% of their time installing gas boilers, who then call themselves ‘engineers’. We need people that truly understand heat loss and are willing to spend a few more hours doing calculations.
Yes, heat pumps do require a bit more calculation and planning than a gas boiler, but there are good software tools and resources available to help. I did the design and self-installed this system, this is covered in this video th-cam.com/video/bHsp7fDw_bg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Quxi8NsdM96ZpjIc
@@GlynHudson . Thanks for the reply Glyn, very impressed with your work and attention to detail. The problem we seem to have is a gas fitter can easily make £100k a year just fitting new boilers and servicing them.chuck in a 30kwh gas boiler and it will work - sort of! We need thousands of heat pump installers, capable of making these calculations and servicing them.
@@bordersw1239 agree, it's probably one of the biggest problems in the industry. But there are a lot of transferable skills from boiler installation. The tools available to do heat loss calcs are improving all the time. The air changes issue is being somewhat address in the next revision of CIBSE
As well as being able to do the calculations, we also need engineers to commit to returning to the property to tweak the systems they have installed. It probably only needs two visits, but if engineers see this as being a problem for them, they won't do it and customers will be left with sub-optimal installations. It would be best to include two reviews of the system performance in the contract you agree with the heating engineers, so that you can hold them to account.
To my mind the issue is that gas boilers are being installed without regards to heatloss calcs. Then they're left to run inefficiently, with owners wondering why their bills are so high.
Thanks for sharing the analysis of the data - I’ve been running my own calcs in heatpunk and the air changes seems to be the determining factor compared to fabric losses - the blower test should be mandatory I reckon - I need to do this really as it could be the difference between a 5kW or 8kW I think- 190m2 2002 bungalow 🤔
Thanks, yes a door blower test is a useful exercise in its own right. It's also important to check the HP manufacturer's data a 5kW Vaillant can actually output 6.8kW at -3C, while a 5kW Samsung can only output 4.7kW at -3C. This data will be built into heatpunk if you're using that.
@@GlynHudson thanks, yes the output values are a bit of a can of worms it seems - I've been looking into the new Samsung R290 models and the data for those seems to be a bit more accurate than the last gen when you deep dive into the data sheets (no heatpumpmonitor data for those yet it seems) - the Vaillant would give some headroom but at a cost 😬
Ever thought about linking up solid fuel with a heat pump? So in the really cold winter time you can light your stove and it will top up the heating system plus you still retain the nice look of the fire?
There's no need, the heat pump is efficient on its own, there's no need for the sold stove. The idea was to negate the need to use the stove. Connecting the stove into the system would have added a lot of complexity e.g buffer tank which would have reduced the efficiency of the heat pump with no gain. The stove is still in place there, they can still use it rare event of a power outage.
Been working on heat pumps since 1979, not much I dont know. But unfortunately I cant seem to find the figures they are producing.
First you have to live in the correct property, snd the vast majority do not. £450000 is a good starting point and mortgage rates at about 4-5 per cent. Never ever cut back on output, thats the golden rule , remember that as the outdoor temp falls at the most critical winter time the output, efficiency, falls, and back up electric heating is required.
Terrific video!
Hi Glyn, This video popped up on my feed.
I am very curious, although you have used the actual ACH did you do any airtightness remedying or insulation work prior to the installation of the HP on either house? I would like to Thank you for providing us with the info and how-to because I have been contemplating doing this on my own house 1983 bungalow in Dublin. Regards Greg
@@gregmooney7363 Hi Greg, no we didn't do any insulating or air tightness work prior to installing the HP. However, make sure you get your own heatloss calculation done since heatloss demand will vary between different properties.
Great video.If you were to do this at another property which wasn't your parents would you consider going to a smaller size heat pump? For the UK it feels like we could adjust our design approach to not focus on the coldest days of the year since it only ever happens a couple times and so the system is "oversized" for the vast majority of it's life. This would lead to smaller and cheaper units for all.
I believe 5 kW is the smallest air to water can you get (the 3.5s are 5 kW units derated in the firmware)
@@dan_greyhe also said 20-30% excess capacity is a good safety net for a heat pump system.
No, I don't think there would be any benefit to a smaller unit. Modern heat pumps have good degree minute based algorithms when cycling, so there's not much loss in performance, and inverter driven compressors don't mind cycling as much. It's also important to ensure the heating works well when it's cold! I guess if you were happy to use a wood stove on very cold days you could consider fitting an undersized unit, but this would not be allowed under MCS
@@GlynHudson A combined gas/ASHP system like the Intergas Xtend could be a good option for bigger properties as the ASHP can work efficiently for 90% of the days and the gas boiler can take over on the coldest days (and be a backup heat souce if the ASHP is down for any reason)
@@GlynHudson a video explainer on degree-minutes would be very helpful
Guessing the ASHP relies on a constant electricity supply? In the event of a lengthy disruption, what alternative heating system would your parents revert to, presumably the wood burner? Thanks.
Gas and oil boilers also need a constant supply of electricity to run. My parents have a home battery which can run the heat pump, but if it was a prolonged outage they still have the wood burner they can use. It's very rare to get more than 12 hrs without power.
Another great video Glyn, thanks. We've been though the mill with delays on an Octopus ASHP install after they deemed it necessary to get planning. That proved to be a Pandoras box of problems until I came up with a simple solution to allow the install to go ahead under permitted development so fingers crossed!
My only concern is that despite what seemed to be a thorough survey they have decided we need a 16Kw pump which seems excessive for a 1930's semi (with a lot of more modern extensions and loft conversions and double glazing), even though it has 5 bedrooms. I calculated using HeatPunk and got around 10Kw. Should I get them to do an air loss (or do one myself)?
Thanks, I can't comment about Octopus, I don't have any experience or knowledge of their processes. If your house is not particularly drafty, and you have well-fitted doors and windows, then you can usually safely drop the ACH down to 0.5. Have a look at what difference this makes in Heat Punk. It's a good exercise in its own right to get a door blower test done, I would recommend it. It's very useful to be able to see exactly where the drafts are coming from, often they can be easily rectified.
@@GlynHudson That sounds like a good plan. The Octopus quote was low enough to be considered a bargain (after the Gov grant) given the amount of work; some replacement rads, hot water cylinder and pump etc. for me to want to hold on to them if possible. I'll see if Google throws up anyone doing the air loss measurements locally (or hiring the equipment) to Manchester.
Yes, same delays and indecision by Octopus with me too. Had a £500 deposit with them since Dec last year, they did a comprehensive survey in April " simple straight forward install" they said. Then in August they suddenly informed me that planning permission was required, I contacted my local authority who said it didn't need planning consent as it was permitted development, so I contacted Octopus again.
They then said that there was an issue with the noise emission.
Now they state they want to do another survey!Octopus
Meanwhile as it has been so long since my quote, I ran their quotation tool in their website to discover it was now quoted at a 1/4 the cost of my initial quote!
Again I have emailed them requesting an explanation for the cost disparity....I'm still waiting for a response.
The only reason that I'm hanging on to them is my preference for the Cosy6 that Greg Jackson raved about in his launch presentation last year as I preferred the aesthetics of it and that it has been designed from the ground up (supposed) to be the most efficient.
I'm getting at the end of my tether with the delays and excuses, such that I am going to give them to the end of the week to give a satisfactory proposal and imminent install date, otherwise I will be having British Gas to install, their price was a lot more competitive at £685 all-in-one and didn't raise any objections to the proposed installation location.
Are you waiting for the Cosy6? Or is it the usual Daikin that they otherwise propose?
@@David-bl1btI'd go with a local Heat Geek installer or a recommended local
@@David-bl1bt £685 with BG, that's a bargain! They quoted me £9k, after the grant, for a 3 bed, 20s semi with double glazing and 30cm of loft insulation. Octopus came in at £2k but like you I'm waiting for a Cosy.
I have been going back and forth with the heat pump scenario, heard good things and bad things , basically really don’t know which is correct , listening to this video tend to think it all depends on the installer because watching a couple of videos by two gentlemen who tend to workout why peoples heat pumps are not as efficient as they should be , it always comes back with the installer not being up to the job or lack of experience, the urban plumber and heat geek are the best in my opinion but somewhat oblivious you yourself has to be in the same club , I think if you were to install my system then I don’t think I would so undecided , peace of mind with confidence in others is hard to find .
Hi, thanks for your comment. Any installer which has done HeatGeek training course or equivalent course on hydronic design should be able to install a good heat pump system. I would recommend looking at heatpumpmonitor.org/ and finding an installer near you. Or going with www.heatgeek.com if you want the best system. HeatGeek no offer a performance guarantee for total piece of mind.
@@GlynHudson I think the words should be able puts me off straight away , it’s not what you look at that counts. It’s what you see , personally I would only have it done by you or the Urban plumber, so unfortunately will still be using my old gas boiler then , who knows you might have a gap in your schedule at some point , you can have me as a backup if any gaps appear. Thanks though for your reply , that video I just watched probably one of the best I’ve seen from a novice person in regards to heat pump knowledge, thanks again , take care .
@@KavanOBrien as I mentioned heatgeek offer a performance guarantee, i.e if they state the system will get a SCOP of 4 they will monitor it and if it under performs they will rectify for free until it hits the claimed performance. I hope I've demonstrated in my videos that installing a good performing heatpump system is that difficult, it just requires slightly different skills compared to average gas boiler installation. Although gas boiler efficiency also also benefits from weather compensation and correct radiator sizing.
@@GlynHudson I appreciate your recommendations and your time in replying to me , being 66 now seen and heard a lot in life and I know the only two people who I would want to convert me to the world of heat pump life are as I said either you or the urban gentleman , other than that scenario irrespective of guarantees just would not be my cup of tea , so as said if not possible by yourselves, then I won’t have one , time of life I know I won’t change my mind = call it getting old or just bloody minded, I wish you well on your path of life , Take care.
I'm honored that you feel that way, but there's lots of good installers out there, I'm only ever installed a couple of heat pumps! Most of what I've learnt has come from watching heat geek TH-cam videos!
What was the TOTAL cost of the installation, please?
My question! Is the circulation pump variable speed?
PS very wise words from your dad at the end 🙂
Yes, it is. However, Vaillant runs a fixed speed flow during heating. Here's a link to the data with the flow rate enabled on the graph: emoncms.org/app/view?name=MyHeatpump&readkey=871ad5efb8f20f698f12d751aea9b8a6&mode=power&start=1726354800&end=1726397100&flow=1
Did you take any video when you did the blower test? Is it possible for a DIY person to do accurately?
Yes, but you would need the right equipment.
Very interesting video. I've only got an air to air airsource heatpump and have octopus go so only have 4 hours at 8.5p and rest time it's 24pkwh . Would it be more efficient to install air to water? What I like about mine is you can switch on and within 15 mins living room goes from 7 degrees to 20 and then it cycles at about 350w to keep temp up. Love your videos :) glad your parents are happy with the install and living in a warm house, storage heaters are awful for heat spikes
Thanks, A2W is generally more efficient and comfortable for heating than A2A, but as you mention A2A has several advantages including fast re-heat and cooling. If you're happy with A2A, there's no reason to change it
@lookoutleo perhaps look at different tariffs or a battery?
Im curious as to how well insulated is the property?
@@hotrodchris805 it's got standard 1980s loft Insulation and a couple of walls have cavity wall insulation, it's not too bad. I've also installed a heat pump in my house which is a 1800 sold stone property without any insulation in the walls or the floor, a heat pump still fine and gets excellent performance. A heatpump can heat any property as long as the system is correctly designed: th-cam.com/video/kkNx2oSO-S4/w-d-xo.html
What was the total install cost excluding your labour i guess?
The cost is not really relevant, in this case, since the main cost of a heat pump installation is labour. You can google the cost of the heat pump itself, it's only a small % of overall cost if labour was included.
Heat loss calculations don't bear much relation to reality because they ignore any solar gain, house appliances, TVs, light bulbs, pets or people - all chucking out heat. All the electricity we use (aside from heating) doesn't just disappear - at some point it's converted to heat which the heat loss calcs totally ignore as far as sizing is concenred. Always best to undersize and keep a couple of sweaters handy just in case.
yes , i agree.
Underfloor heating and a lovely gas condensing boiler at a cost 3 times less than air source and low heat rads and no need to boost hot water temps. This was choice for a 1970s bungalow i just bought.
Plus i cant see rads or an ugly heat pump and pipe overkill and i have the kit installed in a room not contami ated by multiple items of equipment.
You are being taken for mugs.
Take a look the data on heatpumpmonitor.org/#mode=costs&tariff=agile, heat pumps can deliver heat at less than 4p/kWh, this is lower cost than mains gas. However, mains gas is not an option for this property, so a heat pump is by far the cheapest option. Especially combined with solar PV
Do you have design? Mine is only 3COp
The water tank, at which temperature you set for hot water tank
Sorry, I don't. I would recommend looking on heatpumpmonitor.org/ to find an installer near you, or going with a heatgeek.com/ installer
Water is usually stored at about 43C, the heat pump then does an occasional disinfection cycle to 55C.
Interested in your airtightness assumptions. 0.35ach on an old bungalow, even passive house standard os 0.6 ach?
Having just built a house which achieved 0.6 on airtightness test, I'm flabbergasted flabbergasted to see h you have 0.35?
They weren't assumptions - in the previous video he got a blower door test done on the house so they are actuals.
Yes, I wasn't questioning his figure, fair play a 1980s bungalow with passive house airtightness
@@andrewturner-h2v ah, the confusion is that it’s not passive levels of Airtightness. Passive levels of Airtightness of like 0.6 are measured @50 Pa whereas it’s just having an ACH of 0.6 is like 12 ACH@50 Pa. Hope that helps!
Ah, thanks, that makes sense. Out of interest then, his blower test is just simply measuring time to blow his specific volume of air into the property?
@@andrewturner-h2v measures the volume needed to keep the pressure differential at 50Pa and then divides it by the volume of the house i believe.
Wood burner is free this costs money, keep the burner as back up
It's still there! Just not in use any more, good to have in emergency.
Da iawn i ti! Perfformans go iawn!
I would love a house with multiple radiators in each room taking up wall space and looking so pleasant to look at.
The radiators are hidden behind the sofa
@@GlynHudson I havent a problem with heat pumps for modern highly insulated standard homes but have seen too many compromises when retro fitting such systems into older housing stock designed to wholly different standards.
I should declare I am a Chartered Building Surveyor and have inspected many compromised properties with under performing heat pump specs and attempts to overcome. But good luck.
@@johnnettleton7711 if the heat pump system it correctly designed, it can heat any house very efficiently with lower running costs then gas. Too often the system is not properly designed and incorrectly installed.