I feel like most of the disadvantages of a tonfa sword dissappear when you just use a regular Tonfa instead. You could easily modify it slightly with a spike or wider for more protection.
Yeah basically make a tonfa out of steel and sharpen the ends. Maybe give it a triangular or teardrop cross-section with the edge facing outward/down. This would basically make it a sword-adjacent stabbing tonfa that still has the bludgeoning heft you'd want. The handle would need to be made appropriately for something that's gonna transmit a lot of shock though.
@@NieroshaiTheSable I think that a triangular cross-section that has the edges of the blade curving to the point would be good. Additionally, I would, in the modern day, add a magnet to body armor close to the elbow for steadier positioning while blocking. Or perhaps in the middle of the forearm to match another magnet in the other handle for when it's turned into attack position.
@@nordoceltic7225 I would put the spikes away from me though so I could block like he's showing or stab like he did in reverse without changing the grip.
@@TheRexisFern Yes! Especially when the game opens up after 30-40 hours. I loved the wait to get the full 'open world' experience. It's an interesting quality you don't see in a lot of modern games. I hope we can one day get a remaster or full modern remake. 🙏
I was thinking something very similar, it would be a lot easier to carry 2 swords all the time than to always carry a sword and a shield, even if the shield was al light as a sword it is still bulkier to carry, and limits your functionality more. Whereas this gives you many of the benefits of a shield or armor without having to always deal with carrying a shield or wearing armor. Not to mention the Tonfa blade could be a more utilitarian blade (like a machete or messer(?) ) that might not be as ideal as an offensive weapon but used like this could still give you an added "edge" (pun intended) in a fight. Finally you have two swords and the Tonfa one could be used as your main sword in the event you lose your other sword or it is damaged too much to be effective.
Kroenen dual-wielded tonfa swords in the first Hellboy (2004) movie, so they can work in live-action fiction as well as video games. (Then again, IIRC, Kroenen's actor was also the movie's fight co-ordinator, so _of course_ it looked good.)
The character Talim from Soul Calibur uses a pair of bladed tonfas that are basically tonfa-gripped daggers. The way she holds them, the flat side is against her arm rather than the blade. Really, taking a pair of tonfas and sticking some sharp bits on them (Talim's have a curved secondary blade sticking out from near the grip, presumably to act as a blade catcher) sounds like a neat "original" weapon for a character to use.
Funny you mention Talim instead of Zwei, who has an actual Tonfa longsword with an extended side grip and uses both the forward/backward grips used in this video :p
More notably, blades are on the side of the tonfa, not pointed outward. So she can use them exactly the same as a normal tonfa but slash instead of bludgeon.
Soul Calibur II had what I consider the definitive version of Talim's Calibur. Pointed on the ends, and sharp on the outer lateral and ventral surfaces. All the edges faced away from her, and she never threw them in an orbit that led back to herself, despite all the spinning, flipping, looping and twirling. Plus the fact that she could not only separate Soul Calibur into it's Yin and Yang halves without disturbing them, but go on to fold each blade 45 degrees down the center was an important part of her character. She compresses Soul Calibur's power into one of the smallest volumes of anyone, not just because she is tiny and soft-spoken, but because she is a master of spiritual disciplines keyed into the series themes of harmony, healing, listening, purity and control. Everyone else wants the insane Soul Edge to claim it's power, or break it into yet smaller pieces, but Talim is out here trying to heal it, because she can hear it crying, from the other side of the world. She's a good kid.
Having a spike on the end of the handle would make this incredibly effective. It opens up the possibility of quick powerful thrusts and if the handle is actually a dagger, it becomes a powerful cut on the fore end.
My thoughts exactly. You could also add a pointy tip to the upward facing guard, so you can deliver a backhand or hammefist with it. If i had to design it - i would add the spikes, and replace the blade with a solid rod, or maybe a somewhat thicker slab of metal (to maintain the width for protection). Basicly, make it a blunt force weapon, when you swing it out. You know... like a tonfa... ;D. Considering the increased weight of the... "blade", this should certainly be able to slap away an incoming blade, as well as deliver a somewhat forceful strike to the opponent.
@@ChristianBeckerKapraun I think it would work better with a rounded grip so it could be swung sideways like an actual tonfa. I'd use a hardwood shaft and foregrip, with a weighted spike at the back and a dagger or short sword blade at the front. I'd also add a spike to the lower guard. In close melee it would be a vicious two-handed weapon.
@@andrewstrongman305 This is a very interesting idea, I wonder how effective the weighted spike would actually be against armor. I don't know anything about Tonfas honestly, but recovery, especially with a spike against armor, seems like it would be difficult. I would love to see something like that tested though, 100% on board with a weapon like that.
@@ChristianBeckerKapraun If you wanted to keep the tonfa "sword" aesthetic you could just use a thicker triangular shape for the blade, keeping a slashing edge but making it thick enough, and heavy enough, to work as a tonfa.
If you pay attention, Vyse uses single-edged cutlasses, and one is held in a tonfa grip. And in special attacks, he spins the blade around to extend his striking range.
amazing to see somebody talking about SoA. my takeaway from this is that a tonfa (not a tonfa sword) with a spike at the end (pommel position) for thrusting would be a pretty good off-hand weapon. probaby better to just use a buckler or something but sword+tonfa seems to actually make some level of sense.
@@nordoceltic7225 Not sure there is as much difference between this and a buckler as you suggest - very similar primary job of deflecting attack, which I would suggest the Tonfa may actually be somewhat better at dealing with lighter faster swords than a buckler, while probably being worse against the harder hitting weapons, and offensively the bucker is perhaps simpler to use but can't really get the reach the Tonfa allows. But ultimately both are rubbish compared to a real shield at both defense and offense - the normal shield might not get any real reach either but all that mass thrust at you with the thin edge to concentrate it has to be worse than tonfa or buckler which seem to me to amount to a very minor force multiplaction over bare hands...
If you build a sword up with this in mind from the start, this definitely appears as a viable way to hold a second sword in your off-hand in absence of shields or armour... well, instead of a tonfa-adapted sword you could always just grab your classic tonfa which is much cheaper and edged weapons bind just as well to it. On the why, this isn't a _better_ way of defense compared to a shield or dagger but it still present some unique pros, add that to being a better way to hold a second sword as improvised defense though that defeats my thought of it becoming truly viable with a custom sword.
I think Bringing this Combo to a Dual Could easily through off a Veterens who you maybe fighting against. if you have enough Practice. You would have Experence with this combo VSing normal Fighting styles. while the other guy you are facing in the Dual would have no idea how you would fight and React. Like if he was fighting against this combo for the first time. I could see him loosing out right to it, in the first couple seconds.
@@eldrenofthemist2492 might try a strike to the off hand side and your opponent ends up sending the other blade out, think fast. Worse still if they go for the OTHER side, main blade catches, Tonfa Sword slices tendons on the opponent's wrist, fight's over.
@@charlesatanasio1622 A damaged sword is bad in any situation. The last thing you want to do is increase the chances of your sword breaking in combat and using one as a tonfa-style guard is probably going to lead to the opponent slicing off your arm while the pieces of your swords flies into your side.
Yes! this game is one of the gems on the Dreamcast that later got ported to the Gamecube and one of the best RPGs on both platforms (although they did not have many RPGs compared to there predecessors or there rival the undisputed kind of RPGs to this day the PS2)
Capcom's Strider Hiryu has my favorite sword tonfa design -- the Cypher. It can be used like a regular sword, or held by the sideways grip with the blade forward. I'm not entirely sure how practical it is, but the cool-factor is up there. That, and the iconic sound it makes. Badass.
Don't forget about Strider! Although he primarily gripped it with the blade forward, as you demonstrated around 6:05 and additionally was his primary weapon.
its not that he grip it foward, he swaps it around when striking with it. no joke i always thought his was actually double bladed, until a few moments ago when i decided to go back and look up...
I know its all buisnes, but I appreciate Skall for often marekting artists and small buisneses instead of large scale corporations like most youtubers. Bravo Skall!
What, you're not a Raid Shadowlegends fan? It's the amazing mobile game with a deep storyline and engaging gameplay that's taking the gaming comm-*puking noises* Sorry, couldn't quite get through that. I'll double check the script and try again.
BROOOOO THAT GAME!!!! Skies of Arcadia was one of the cooler concepts I remember from my childhood. Had a demo for it on the Dreamcast and always wanted to play it through. I had forgotten. Also I love this "style" being covered. Thanks for another great vid, Skal!
I'm impressed by how far you took this and how much benefit of the doubt you gave to this concept. Additionally, it's always nice to see those first-person shots you throw in!
Nice to see a Suikoden 2 Picture at the end Thanks Skallgrim. I've always thought the ton-fa style can be effective defensively, hence its use in the police force, but lacks kill ability when compared to conventional sword/s.
Thanks for taking it seriously. Your overall assessment is one I agree with. Its a gimmick, but not completely useless as a parrying blade with some extra utility and leverage.
11:11 the flat tonfa is called a Mae Sawk,a traditional weapon from Krabi Krabong and Silat,used strapped to the arm as mix between tonfa and shield,to offer arm protection,and increase attacking power .
Skies of Arcadia! I actually enjoy Vyse's fighting style and in a recent replay I was thinking about how functional it is for a JRPG. He doesn't strike with it much, so it's just kind of "on hand" for whenever he needs it. It's highly reversible and the grip can be adjusted to be held like a proper blade. All in all I thought it was pretty creative. I like that only one blade is a tonfa too, and the other is a dedicated weapon. I don't think you could pull off two tonfa-swords at the same time.
@@DaidriveCJ delphinus, little jack, lynx, albatross, and claudia probably got used the most but over time ive probably used most of them. Got quit alot of use out of ironclad for one of my battleships before i renamed it the zodiark.
@@vayneglory655 Sweet! I've always, somewhat foolishly by now(at least at this time) that there would be either a Skies Of Arcadia HD re-release, Remake or sequel in which you could have online ship battles using various ships from the games as well as customizable and player created crafts. As improbable as it looks currently... I applaud you and others, including this very video for keeping Skies alive and in the consciousness of more folks in some way, shape or form. No matter how seemingly small it is!
You made me think of an old Japanese swordfighter who was beloved and opened up SO many genres of later characters. Can you look at "Zatoichi Challenged"? Show #17? Zaotichi is a blind master swordsman, and uses an icepick grip vs an obviously trained samurai, among other fighters as well. Fantastic old show. Fantastic swordplay.
This reminds me of Tanya from Mortal Kombat: Deception and Mortal Kombat: Armageddon, who used a pair of weapons very similar to this whole idea. I always wondered if such a weapon would actually be useful. Thanks for looking into this, Skall.
Love the vid! I'm a 3D artist that's trying to fan remake these characters (and this particular character at the moment) with modern aesthetics, and your vid popped up while researching related equipment (scabbards/sheathes/belts). Definitely some leaps of logic in the design. As someone who is always interested in the practicality or history of things, the juxtaposition (or fight...heh) between my logic versus my appreciation for fantasy can be both fun and a little frustrating, especially as somewhat of a designer as well, as I try to "improve" these designs. It's not dissimilar to evil monster designers (or kids/kids-at-heart) drawing spikes on the elbows of their characters, especially on winged creatures, which would causes all sorts of self-harm. There's a funny interaction in Jackson's The Lord of the Rings behind-the-scenes extras where John Howe (one of two leading artists of Tolkien's work, the other being Alan Lee) is jokingly criticized by another artist, who is experienced with birds, for him drawing spikes at the end of flying beasts' wings, which the other artist says, "Those couldn't work." John responds with, "Shut up. They look cool." lol. They apparently took their frustrations out on each other with sword play on breaks, Howe being a serious medieval reenactor as well. The realistic plausibility/implausibility is always fascinating/funny, which I'm also constantly estimating/researching for. At the moment, I'm trying to figure out just how the heroes would carry their weapons on them most of the time, and what kind of design might work for easy sheathing/unsheathing access to the weapons. In-game and in the illustrations, they're never depicted as ever wearing any kind of scabbards, sheathes, or holsters for their weapons. It was likely intentional, because it makes them seem more non-violent, peace-loving, defensive orientated, rather than militaristic or genocidal (while murding cute and funny looking penguins en masse...). Again, lapses in logic for the sake of aesthetics or fun. Small note, however, that all the playable characters' weapons also change design as you buy new ones. Some versions may be closer to "practical" than others, with the latter evidently and purposely based on "because it's cool" or "because it's cute". Vidya Games. Anyway, appreciate the demonstration!
In the style of Kobudo we practice using tonfas we do have techniques that consist on swapping from "short" to "long grip" for defense and attack; you aim at soft spots like throat and eyes when attacking with a bit of extra reach and blocks are rather deflects. Even when dealing with wood, it should not be much longer than your elbow because it becomes impractical quickly. Also, we have a third grip when you swap and grab the tonfa and use it to hit as a hammer, in a similar way to swapping a Sai from short grip to long grip. All in all, having a bladed/metal tonfa does not seem like a bad idea. A bit on the heavier side, but not that much.
I think you missed something I’d do often: Switch grips mid-stroke as needed to go dual-wield, switching back immediately after your offensive stroke. Personally, I suspect your source game(?) just did this for the cool factor, seeing it as an eye catcher, but I can see using the position as a parry whilst duel-wielding in the main. Makes me consider new hilt designs :) Thank you for your thought-provoking video!
The character does rotate it so the blade is forward for some special moves. Both swords also come as sets when you change equipment and look different.
That is what I am thinking as well. The benefit of this setup is that you have a defensive stance and an offensive stance that you can switch between with relative ease making it a fairly versatile style.
I even know a movie, where they had something like a tonfa sword! In the Prince of Persia movie, the leader of the Hassansins wielded something akin to a scimitar, where the handle was in a 90° angle to the blade. The one he used could only be used like that, though. If you would draw a line straight down from the handle, that line would divide this single blade into a larger section, about the length of his underarm, and a short section, that could potentially be used as a sort of spike. Now this created a wish I didn't knew I had: Skal, could you please do a review of the weapons shown in Prince of Persia? They show an array of really cool and exotic looking weapons I've never seen used in any other movie.
The originals in the game were a pair of cutlasses, and from what I remember of the super move animations, the swords were usually different sizes (full sized for main hand, and about a hand shorter for his off hand). I figured they did this to make it a little closer to traditional 2-sword styles, while being mixed with an island aesthetic, wrapped in the fantasy pirate themes. Plus, between Vyse and Soul Calibur's Cervantes, what's cooler than a dual-wielding pirate?
Wow you talked pros about unconventional sword use/design. I haven't watched all of your videos, but usually they have been "why this won't work" this was really cool. Keep up the great work
Here's a thought, you swap the handle and blade, so there's a long handle and short blade so you can stab more easily while still getting the defensive benefits of the tonfa, plus you can use it as a short spear or potentially a club (via the handle) by gripping the long handle.
I like that idea, and if the long handle is largely or entirely wooden it makes the whole thing wider, and probably still lighter and more flexible, so better able to transfer and absorb the impact of the blow - the wood will crush and take some damage rather than transfer all of the impact into your arm - which may well be a fight saver, stoping or deflecting a powerful blow on a tonfa isn't gong to be nice - its going to stop the blow from cutting you but that is going to be one heck of a stinger with all the force transferred on a fairly narrow steel bar along your arm, and a potentially completely useless arm for at least a one sword stroke too long... Actually doesn't take all that much force either, anybody reasonably powerful landing a good hit with a stiff or heavy weapon on a tonfa could well numb that arm beyond use pretty easily - as the entire transferred force of their blow is likely delivered on only a very small patch of that long thin edge anyway - the blade isn't evenly pressed against the forarm, and can only pivot at the wrist so I expect most of the impact force will actually be delivered on a few centimeters of the blade somewhere very near the elbow..
Considering this is a game where the other main character uses an energy boomerang the size of a boogie board, while there's also a steampunk-cyborg Captain Ahab-type who fires his pneumatic hook-hand as a weapon, it's kinda neat to see there's some plausibility to what Vyse is doing with his other cutlass. Also, just writing out that previous sentence reminded me of how cool Skies of Arcadia is.
When the use of actual tonfa technique was brought up my first thought was to rotate the blade 90° in relation to the cross guard. That would allow for blocking with the flat as a default, as well as more slicing type movements based on actual tonfs techniques. The blade could even be made a little shorter and wider, and the pommel could even be pointed to allow for stabs.
A ring guard may help with this, it wouldn't be perfect but its the closest thing a quick search could find on existing sword types that have such a guard. I dare say if anyone ever made a doubled cross guard they were either terribly uncommon or named something incredulously hard to search for. This is otherwise a really good point though. You need a different type of sword to use tonfa techniques properly as opposed to a standard arming sword. =) still we can dream can't we?
Having played the game, Vyse mostly uses that weapon in a defensive style Parry/Riposte/thrust , only using the main grip in Combo moves Slashing on openings .
Nobody has an appreciation for shields as a weapon. Spartans loved them for a reason. A good heater shield, with the 3 points at the top and the one at the bottom, could be used very offensively. Obviously, the forward punch with the top point, and the elbow down with the bottom point. But also, what about using the points at the left and right sides of the top, in hammer fisting motions? And let's not forget having a boss or spike right on the front of the shield for normal forward bashing. All of this gives you a great tool you can use to get on the inside with some respectable offensive capabilities.
While I do think your analysis is pretty well thought out there is one thing that never really gets discussed in these videos. That is that Vyse is not engaging in many sword duels in the game but is often fighting monsters and other types of beasts. How would his style work against non-human opponents?
Interesting question in regards to context, however I think this video is moreso to showcase the weapon in a generalised sense. It's an interesting look at a weapon and style, and seeing how effective it is in reality. Not that it would discount Vyse's use of it.
Which non-human opponent? They vary a little, even IRL. What I might choose to use against a vicious dog is going to be significantly different than say an attacking eagle, or a large cat.
Against anything capable of dishing out a powerful hit this is only going to end badly - as its really only good defensively for that deflecting that light stab/slashing attack that when spread over a thin strip of your forarm can be dealt with without harm (armor will help there but only so much), but even a blow from just a powerful human on a tonfa might well numb and maybe even cause a bone fracture or two, something that hits even harder than that I'd expect the bones in your forearm to break somewhere near the elbow every time - with the tonfa only able to pivot a bit at the wrist and likely not evenly supported along its length much of the force will concentrate there I suspect.
Talim from soulcalibur has several bladed tonfa like weapons that maybe worth a look. I was always fond of the dual crescent blades, but that may be cause they had the best damage potential in the game (for Talim at least).
Not to bring up an old topic, but this brings me back to Shad's topic on "is a weapon viable when something else is simply more effective?" Obviously we're talking about how effective a fantasy style is, but a shield or buckler would be just as if not more effective or as you demonstrated, simply holding it normally. I have a beef with Tonfa and Sai/pop culture weapons as their effectiveness seems to be relative to the amount of suspension of disbelief for the premise.
Eh. Both are perfectly functional and effective as weapons. A tonfa is a more defensive club basically, and they've been adapted in some form into weapons for people who aren't supposed to kill the person they are fighting. Sai meanwhile are very short range but the entire point of the weapon is trying to catch someones weapon and then deal with them. Are their better alternatives? Maybe depends on the situation. I know I personally wouldn't use a Sai but I like a bigger safety net rather then a weapon that's basically saying 'If I'm skilled enough and more skilled then you I can kill you easily, if the reverse is true you'll win on the first swing'. Similarly in those kinds of fights I wouldn't want to wield a knife either though at least I could throw it possibly effectively. Tonfa I'm more likely to actually use......now NUNCHUCKS that's a weapon I feel is more show then function. Its a club on a chain that takes huge amounts of skill to NOT clean your own clock, and more skill on top of that to have a chance in hell against an enemy wielding....anything longer then a knife? Though even among showy weapons there are some I love and would want to use....I'm particularly enamored with the Meteor Hammer/Rope Dart.
My biggest problem with it is I think the second sword would provide better defense held normally. This wouldn't even make sense if you couldn't use any shields for some reason.
@@xidarian Nah, this is better than dual wielding full length swords, but its also worse than sword and dagger in every way. I was gonna say it would be decent as an improvised shield, but he had to modify the quillon to have a decent grip.
I mean a tonfa is a twirly stick that really hurts and a sai is basically a giant fork. The physics to make them do what they are supposed to are present. Take my advice man: the next time you question whether something "works" or not you might not be realizing that most of the time you're really asking is wether or not it "works for you" because a twirly stick that really hurts and a giant fork are possible. A KamehameHAAAAA is not possible as far as we know That and niches are a thing and niche ≠ not working.
@@Sandman382 If you quickly swing it out in surprise most of the force is gonna impact the guy with little left to harm you in the return trip. Sorta like a conealed carry (takes more time to draw out the damn thing then just leaving it out. ) or one of those extentdo sticks (holow tubes? Surely that isn't gonna survive much impact. Also you still gotta extend it to be useful? Talk about wasted time). It's all about context Nunchuks work. Not physics are broken. It's a niche tool yes but still a workable tool and niche ≠ not working as intended. It just emans there are easier ways to do something but people want to stand out and make thigns work anyway
One thing I do remember from doing martial arts in my childhood, mainly focusing on a hybrid Arnis/Judo/Kendo martial art which also touched base with other Okinawan weapons like tonfa, striking with the pommel. On a couple of occasions where you have it bound either with the "offhand" sword or with the "tonfa" you could strike toward the weapon arm or torso of the opponent with the pommel like a tonfa thrust itself. From memory, just touching on length, the tonfa I used/saw used only extended maybe 3 inches/7cm-ish past the elbow to avoid any accidental self inflicted rib poking as well.
I think we are missing something, if there is such a weapon, and I would love one, The grip part of your sword would basically be a spike or a dagger and not a grip. That would make a lot more sense than just using a sword like a tonfa... let's make a tonfa sword altogether which is a different weapon as the hilt, that you're using as a grip, would be a different shape to make it an actual grip. English is not my first language and I hope I am making some kind of sense trying to explain my idea.
Man, I remember looking for this game for years as a kid, considering I grew up in the OG Arcadia in Greece. I wonder if I can find a digital copy these days 🤔
I'm pretty sure the only way to play it is with an emulator if you don't want to get a Dreamcast. I made a quick search, it was released for the DC and nothing more. Not that hard to emulate it though, even smartphones can do it.
@@andregon4366 Actually there is a Gamecube port, Skies of Arcadia Legends, but it is even more rare and coveted. If you find that for a good price, absolutely go for it
I don't have any knowledge of the game but if it's on an older concole, you could probaly find it as a 'ROM' and play it on an emulation of whatever platform it was releassd for. It should run smoothly unless it is for the 3DS. I tried to play Mario & Luigi: Dream Team and it dropped too 2 F.P.S. on the title screen then crashed.
This reminds me of a really old game called Strider. The main character carries a sword called a cypher. It has a tonfa grip in addition to a two-hander hilt.
It seems like a resourceful technique. It's not exactly a reason to bring a two swords instead of a sword and a shield, but if you have reason to bring two swards, this is a good technique. Also I think this would work better if there was a spike at the end of the handle, so it kinda functions like a dagger
The main issue with reverse grip or tonfa type weapons is that they can't effectively guard against thrusts or missile fire, where even a small shield offers better defence.
The way skal was holding it would probably offer better defence than a buckler against thrusts, since it has the ability to hook. The problem is that a parry dagger is better in every way.
@@maxvarjagen9810 I won't bother with your first claim as your justification is nonsense. Sure, a fighter could deflect a thrust he saw coming, but a buckler protects a larger area with less effort. The parry dagger or short sword in the off hand certainly makes more sense.
Unironically, 2 of Vyse's Super Moves result in countering all physical attacks. 1 is just for him while the other is for the party. Glad you brought up one of my favorite games Skall.
Hey, I made that design in my early teens. I was inspired by the handle of a hay knife. My design proved a bit too large and heavy though, as it was a two handed sword with a grip on the guard.
You know the thing I like the most about your look at this style of grip holding is how much you point out just how much control it gives you to force the enemy's blade off of the Centerline and I see this as a guy who has roughly about 2 years give or take in Japanese swordsmanship classes which was only enough for me to really start to get to the point of intermediate to slightly more Advanced Techniques and things like that and the only reason I stopped was because of covid but the biggest thing I have learned in my time and that Japanese swordsmanship class was very much so you need always and I truly do mean always hold that Centerline because if you give up the Centerline Fini open yourself up to the your opponent because now you have to take time to put your blade back towards facing your enemy in a position where you can easily defend from probably the biggest benefit of this style is it really does give you so many options against even a good opponent who may just be getting sloppy or who you may just be more athletic than.
It'd likely work just like a tonfa. Although the issues of self injury or getting the blade stuck on a thrust comes to mind, along with the weaker grip you'd have in using it, and the lack of versatility from being unable to flip it like a tonfa? With a big ol blade like this though, you could likely just mordhau, no problem.
I could see self injury if the blade was too long. Im not sure about not being able to spin it like a tonfa though. Skall can flip this sword in his hand. Only difference I see is that if the blade was perpendicular to the grip, the flip motion could generate a cut rather than a slapping with the flat. I think the thrust would be the same in either orientation and wouldn't be any different. Kind of like push daggers
I would think in dual wielding, that a blunt weapon would go best with a sword. That way you have the reach and damage potential of a bladed weapon coupled with the armor penetration of say a hammer or mace. Personal opinion.
@@ramzen89 The only problem is that blunt weapons tend to be less balanced in weight-distribution, which means it benefits them being held in the main hand more than the off-hand. This would then push the sword into the off-hand, which makes it a bit harder to use than simply having a dagger, which is quite easy to control even in an off-hand.
If used certain ways this CAN work. He's basically using two sabers like they're Tonfa anyways looks like. An some the slashing abilities capable of would be more lethal then some stabs. An so long as the blade side against the arm is not edged or you wear gear of at least minimum protective nature should be easy to make stuff work. An anyone that likes to LITERALLY disarm basically finds that impossible to disable an arm that protected by a whole blade that could anytime be flipped around for lethal stabs an slashes at very close range of their own. All it requires is some outside the box thinking and to be very aware of what one can do with both traditional blades of the suitable kind, Tonfa an such hybrids especially.
Could move the blade toward the neck and press with your elbow, slide it along and 'GRKKH' ya got a dead man walking. Then again you're gonna have more mobility as it is a defensive weapon, can just knock the guy on his ass and it'll take him a while to get up again.
@@ZergleJerk That is going to be where it gets TRICKY. To sieze that opportunity one must work to use the armor's weight and encumberance to their advantage. If they wear the armor like a second skin then it's far less likely you'll emerge victorious even if you had a Morningstar or War Hammer. Victory would have to be won by sheer attrition. Namely exhausting them and then exploiting the exhaustion to deliver the killing blow.
@@boxtank5288 I think we have all figured out that you can wear most armor for prolonged periods and be ok. No. The tonfa sword will be basically useless unless the dude has a shorter weapon than you, so basically a dagger, or AND you are a ju jitsu master.
@@ZergleJerk Right, as I said. Anyone competent in Armor (or worse yet, able to wear it like it's a second skin) is a foe the weapon is just unable to beat. Even when one takes into consideration dual-wielding (a technique that was in FENCING so not outlandish and impossible unlike with guns) it becomes arduous at best and impossible at worse.
Have you seen Wushu Rooster Knives? Bladed tonfa with hand guards, so not meant for spinning. And the point of the long end, near the elbow, has hooks or barbs pointed out.
What about trying it with the handle quillon tangent to the flat of the blade instead of the edge? Then you could have the flat as the arm shield like you wanted and could spin rapidly between fore and rear pointing positions. Double edged also ceases to be a problem so it works in both directions. I would choose a length that extends only a bit past my elbow, maybe 10 or 12 cm.
It would basically lead to the same situation like with the reverse grip bracing the flat of the blade against the forearm. In most cases the blade is not wide enough to cover the forearm and exposes it to be cut.
Honestly the problem with spinning it forward at all while using the tonfa grip is that your ability to maintain its alignment becomes so incredibly weak. If you're gripping it by the crossguard, you're providing an absolutely perfect pivot point: even with a reasonably wide grip (as his modification shows in the video), your opponent would barely have to exert any force on the tip to deflect it. Arguably, reorienting the tonfa grip would actually make this worse because you would be trying to cut within the plane of the blade's natural rotation, where your ability to exert force is weakest.
I agree with the other replies about the alignment and spinning issues. But look up Nandao sword from Wushu (Kung Fu). There's a grip flip technique which has thumb and forefinger around the rear quillon, other fingers around the front quillon, blade flat against the arm. You'd have to twist your arm a lot for defense, but it's easier to return to normal grip. I think Lindybeige shows the grip in his 1st video on Butterfly swords.
The 1976 Shaw Brothers film THE MAGIC BLADE features a tonfa sword used by the main protagonist. His version has a much smaller blade resembling a machete and he keeps it in a hoister-like scabbard on his leg. His fighting style closely resembles traditional tonfa combat but with more sweeping motions for cutting/slashing.
Watching this I'm reminded of the recent Mortal Kombat movie and the bladed Tonfa wielded by Cole Young wherein the short end has a curved blade. I cannot help but think if the curved end were either longer, double edged or had a sharper curve like a Kama, it would add a lot to the offensive and defensive flexibility of the bladed Tonfa.
I tried making a tonfa-sword for a LARP. I put the guard/handle on the flat of the blade so that swinging it like a tonfa would hit with the blade. I played a bit with it but never ended up using it with someone else. Do you think it could work? My test also had a shorter blade, only two inches past my elbow. I don't have the same reach with thrusts and tonfa swings but I'm not as likely to stab myself and it helps with dual weilding too. For context, I have no swordfighting experience outside LARP.
When I owned a katana + wakazashi set, I found that the wakasashi sheath was about the right size to be a regular tonfa, though you’d need to add the perpendicular bit normally grabbed. A wooden scabbard would not survive use as a tonfa, but a metal scabbard could both function as a tonfa and hold the wakazashi. It would only really work if you draw the blade, and keep the tonfa as an off-hand weapon / defense.
My first thought was: "Why not use a tonfa instead?" Then again, it seems more like a matter of convenience, when you want to use something as a defensive weapon in your offhand, but only same sized swords are available. But if I've had a choice to use a weapon in a similar style, I would opt for a bec de corbin with a shortened handle - as would any kid, who picked up a hammer.
If you wanted to make a sword specifically for this, make it an estoc/smallsword triangular blade, with one edge sharpened and the other two flattened to rest against the arm. You still have some edge for draw cuts and a point which can still be used like a regular sword.
In the matter of changing the grip so that the point is looking forwards, in a tonfa you would slide forwards from the guard position to attack, the tonfa being blunt can attack while changing stance effectively, perhaps changing the swords crossguard to accomodate for such use would make it useful.
I'd direct you to Tales of Phantasia, at least the first episode of the animation. The main character uses a sword with a three-point guard and uses the non-edge-aligned guard, which is a rounded spoke rather than the tapered or square guard, as a second grip. It's used for both a big lever-action swing and for this tonfa guarding. It ends up defending with the flat rather than the blade.
I feel like most of the disadvantages of a tonfa sword dissappear when you just use a regular Tonfa instead. You could easily modify it slightly with a spike or wider for more protection.
But you lose the cool factor, remember the all important rule of cool 😎
Yeah basically make a tonfa out of steel and sharpen the ends. Maybe give it a triangular or teardrop cross-section with the edge facing outward/down. This would basically make it a sword-adjacent stabbing tonfa that still has the bludgeoning heft you'd want. The handle would need to be made appropriately for something that's gonna transmit a lot of shock though.
@@NieroshaiTheSable I think that a triangular cross-section that has the edges of the blade curving to the point would be good. Additionally, I would, in the modern day, add a magnet to body armor close to the elbow for steadier positioning while blocking. Or perhaps in the middle of the forearm to match another magnet in the other handle for when it's turned into attack position.
First thing that comes to mind is Karl Ruprecht Kroenen From the 2004 Hellboy movie.
@@nordoceltic7225 I would put the spikes away from me though so I could block like he's showing or stab like he did in reverse without changing the grip.
Frankly I'm just happy someone is talking about Skies of Arcadia.
Literally came to say the same thing! Such a classic! 😁
Same. It might not be the best game, but the story and sense of world was amazing.
@@TheRexisFern Yes! Especially when the game opens up after 30-40 hours. I loved the wait to get the full 'open world' experience. It's an interesting quality you don't see in a lot of modern games. I hope we can one day get a remaster or full modern remake. 🙏
Yes! Amazing game
@@ryanearlmusic Even just a port would be nice.
I could see a tonfa ish item as a more carry friendly shield alternative in urban environment
I was thinking something very similar, it would be a lot easier to carry 2 swords all the time than to always carry a sword and a shield, even if the shield was al light as a sword it is still bulkier to carry, and limits your functionality more. Whereas this gives you many of the benefits of a shield or armor without having to always deal with carrying a shield or wearing armor. Not to mention the Tonfa blade could be a more utilitarian blade (like a machete or messer(?) ) that might not be as ideal as an offensive weapon but used like this could still give you an added "edge" (pun intended) in a fight. Finally you have two swords and the Tonfa one could be used as your main sword in the event you lose your other sword or it is damaged too much to be effective.
I feel a buckler would be easier to carry and end up being more useful
Tonfa grip kite shield/spiked pavise.
You better use the second sword just as a sword
Buckler shield with a blade attachment would work. Also frees your hand for another sword.
Kroenen dual-wielded tonfa swords in the first Hellboy (2004) movie, so they can work in live-action fiction as well as video games. (Then again, IIRC, Kroenen's actor was also the movie's fight co-ordinator, so _of course_ it looked good.)
Yeah I knew someone would remember him, that movie was fun.
lol, was just about to mention this and there it was; indeed they made it look good
Heh nm
And also we have Kronen swords in Warframe
…Oh. So that’s what the warframe tonfas are names after…
The character Talim from Soul Calibur uses a pair of bladed tonfas that are basically tonfa-gripped daggers. The way she holds them, the flat side is against her arm rather than the blade. Really, taking a pair of tonfas and sticking some sharp bits on them (Talim's have a curved secondary blade sticking out from near the grip, presumably to act as a blade catcher) sounds like a neat "original" weapon for a character to use.
Funny you mention Talim instead of Zwei, who has an actual Tonfa longsword with an extended side grip and uses both the forward/backward grips used in this video :p
Best character. Double Cresent blades (till you unlock finals).
I appreciate Talim style
More notably, blades are on the side of the tonfa, not pointed outward. So she can use them exactly the same as a normal tonfa but slash instead of bludgeon.
Soul Calibur II had what I consider the definitive version of Talim's Calibur. Pointed on the ends, and sharp on the outer lateral and ventral surfaces. All the edges faced away from her, and she never threw them in an orbit that led back to herself, despite all the spinning, flipping, looping and twirling.
Plus the fact that she could not only separate Soul Calibur into it's Yin and Yang halves without disturbing them, but go on to fold each blade 45 degrees down the center was an important part of her character. She compresses Soul Calibur's power into one of the smallest volumes of anyone, not just because she is tiny and soft-spoken, but because she is a master of spiritual disciplines keyed into the series themes of harmony, healing, listening, purity and control. Everyone else wants the insane Soul Edge to claim it's power, or break it into yet smaller pieces, but Talim is out here trying to heal it, because she can hear it crying, from the other side of the world.
She's a good kid.
Having a spike on the end of the handle would make this incredibly effective. It opens up the possibility of quick powerful thrusts and if the handle is actually a dagger, it becomes a powerful cut on the fore end.
My thoughts exactly. You could also add a pointy tip to the upward facing guard, so you can deliver a backhand or hammefist with it.
If i had to design it - i would add the spikes, and replace the blade with a solid rod, or maybe a somewhat thicker slab of metal (to maintain the width for protection). Basicly, make it a blunt force weapon, when you swing it out. You know... like a tonfa... ;D. Considering the increased weight of the... "blade", this should certainly be able to slap away an incoming blade, as well as deliver a somewhat forceful strike to the opponent.
@@ChristianBeckerKapraun I think it would work better with a rounded grip so it could be swung sideways like an actual tonfa. I'd use a hardwood shaft and foregrip, with a weighted spike at the back and a dagger or short sword blade at the front. I'd also add a spike to the lower guard. In close melee it would be a vicious two-handed weapon.
@@andrewstrongman305 This is a very interesting idea, I wonder how effective the weighted spike would actually be against armor. I don't know anything about Tonfas honestly, but recovery, especially with a spike against armor, seems like it would be difficult. I would love to see something like that tested though, 100% on board with a weapon like that.
You could make the pommel into a fist shape so it becomes funny when you punch them!
@@ChristianBeckerKapraun If you wanted to keep the tonfa "sword" aesthetic you could just use a thicker triangular shape for the blade, keeping a slashing edge but making it thick enough, and heavy enough, to work as a tonfa.
The arming sword used by the other gentleman is really elegant, it really goes well even with modern clothes.
I would call that a rapier.
I thought you two were talking about the longsword from the first sections for a moment and I was real confused lol
@@TheZinmo I imagine he's right as the term is applied to a sword of certain length. Although I think of the iconic crucible type when stated.
Ya it looks nice.
I just note it has a 2-hand handle.
Really like that one, too! Believe that one is the VB type XIV shortsword feder from Purpleheart :)
Congrats to the other swordsman for the majestic beard
His beard is epic. Btw here I got some quotes about Slavs vs Roman Empire and some other peoples - watch?v=r0jLMDvsU4U
Yeah
Ikr
One day, I hope to get my beard like that
Here here! From one breaded gentlman to another, my compliments.
If you pay attention, Vyse uses single-edged cutlasses, and one is held in a tonfa grip. And in special attacks, he spins the blade around to extend his striking range.
The fact you're talking about Skies of Arcadia in a practical way made me subscribe.
amazing to see somebody talking about SoA. my takeaway from this is that a tonfa (not a tonfa sword) with a spike at the end (pommel position) for thrusting would be a pretty good off-hand weapon. probaby better to just use a buckler or something but sword+tonfa seems to actually make some level of sense.
@@nordoceltic7225 "less lethal"
@@nordoceltic7225 Not sure there is as much difference between this and a buckler as you suggest - very similar primary job of deflecting attack, which I would suggest the Tonfa may actually be somewhat better at dealing with lighter faster swords than a buckler, while probably being worse against the harder hitting weapons, and offensively the bucker is perhaps simpler to use but can't really get the reach the Tonfa allows. But ultimately both are rubbish compared to a real shield at both defense and offense - the normal shield might not get any real reach either but all that mass thrust at you with the thin edge to concentrate it has to be worse than tonfa or buckler which seem to me to amount to a very minor force multiplaction over bare hands...
If you build a sword up with this in mind from the start, this definitely appears as a viable way to hold a second sword in your off-hand in absence of shields or armour... well, instead of a tonfa-adapted sword you could always just grab your classic tonfa which is much cheaper and edged weapons bind just as well to it.
On the why, this isn't a _better_ way of defense compared to a shield or dagger but it still present some unique pros, add that to being a better way to hold a second sword as improvised defense though that defeats my thought of it becoming truly viable with a custom sword.
I think Bringing this Combo to a Dual Could easily through off a Veterens who you maybe fighting against. if you have enough Practice. You would have Experence with this combo VSing normal Fighting styles. while the other guy you are facing in the Dual would have no idea how you would fight and React. Like if he was fighting against this combo for the first time. I could see him loosing out right to it, in the first couple seconds.
@@eldrenofthemist2492 might try a strike to the off hand side and your opponent ends up sending the other blade out, think fast. Worse still if they go for the OTHER side, main blade catches, Tonfa Sword slices tendons on the opponent's wrist, fight's over.
Might also be a more effecive way to use a broken or damaged sword that cant be used in a more traditional fashion depending on circumstances.
@@charlesatanasio1622 A damaged sword is bad in any situation. The last thing you want to do is increase the chances of your sword breaking in combat and using one as a tonfa-style guard is probably going to lead to the opponent slicing off your arm while the pieces of your swords flies into your side.
Yes! this game is one of the gems on the Dreamcast that later got ported to the Gamecube and one of the best RPGs on both platforms (although they did not have many RPGs compared to there predecessors or there rival the undisputed kind of RPGs to this day the PS2)
Capcom's Strider Hiryu has my favorite sword tonfa design -- the Cypher. It can be used like a regular sword, or held by the sideways grip with the blade forward. I'm not entirely sure how practical it is, but the cool-factor is up there. That, and the iconic sound it makes. Badass.
Shocked this wasn't the first instance mentioned of the tonfa-sword.
Don't forget about Strider! Although he primarily gripped it with the blade forward, as you demonstrated around 6:05 and additionally was his primary weapon.
its not that he grip it foward, he swaps it around when striking with it. no joke i always thought his was actually double bladed, until a few moments ago when i decided to go back and look up...
Hell yea my guy Hiryu kicks ass
I still live that playstation version to death, such a great game
I was looking for this comment, lol.
I know its all buisnes, but I appreciate Skall for often marekting artists and small buisneses instead of large scale corporations like most youtubers. Bravo Skall!
What, you're not a Raid Shadowlegends fan? It's the amazing mobile game with a deep storyline and engaging gameplay that's taking the gaming comm-*puking noises*
Sorry, couldn't quite get through that. I'll double check the script and try again.
"if this was curved forward, there'd be less chance of hurting oneself"
So, a one handed falx with a crossguard?
What about a Greek kopis?
Or a falcata from Spain?
Shotel time
OR Chinese hook swords. It curves away and got a sharp pommel for hilt smashing.
Or kukri
BROOOOO THAT GAME!!!!
Skies of Arcadia was one of the cooler concepts I remember from my childhood. Had a demo for it on the Dreamcast and always wanted to play it through. I had forgotten. Also I love this "style" being covered. Thanks for another great vid, Skal!
I'm impressed by how far you took this and how much benefit of the doubt you gave to this concept. Additionally, it's always nice to see those first-person shots you throw in!
Nice to see a Suikoden 2 Picture at the end Thanks Skallgrim. I've always thought the ton-fa style can be effective defensively, hence its use in the police force, but lacks kill ability when compared to conventional sword/s.
Immensely happy to see skies of arcadia!
Thanks for taking it seriously. Your overall assessment is one I agree with. Its a gimmick, but not completely useless as a parrying blade with some extra utility and leverage.
11:11 the flat tonfa is called a Mae Sawk,a traditional weapon from Krabi Krabong and Silat,used strapped to the arm as mix between tonfa and shield,to offer arm protection,and increase attacking power .
Skies of Arcadia! I actually enjoy Vyse's fighting style and in a recent replay I was thinking about how functional it is for a JRPG. He doesn't strike with it much, so it's just kind of "on hand" for whenever he needs it. It's highly reversible and the grip can be adjusted to be held like a proper blade. All in all I thought it was pretty creative. I like that only one blade is a tonfa too, and the other is a dedicated weapon. I don't think you could pull off two tonfa-swords at the same time.
Im just happy skies of arcadia still lives in someones mind. I love this game so much. I name my ships in eve after SoA ships. Lol
I'm captain Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca.
@Vayne Glory Really?! That sounds great, which names have you used so far?
@@DaidriveCJ delphinus, little jack, lynx, albatross, and claudia probably got used the most but over time ive probably used most of them. Got quit alot of use out of ironclad for one of my battleships before i renamed it the zodiark.
@@vayneglory655 Sweet! I've always, somewhat foolishly by now(at least at this time) that there would be either a Skies Of Arcadia HD re-release, Remake or sequel in which you could have online ship battles using various ships from the games as well as customizable and player created crafts. As improbable as it looks currently...
I applaud you and others, including this very video for keeping Skies alive and in the consciousness of more folks in some way, shape or form. No matter how seemingly small it is!
Nice!
Thank you so very much for pulling up skies of arcadia the game! Absolutely my favorite game of all time!
I love how you're actually seeing if it would work rather than just blowing it off, great video!
Experimentation is true science, quoting is not! I so agree with you.
Keep it up !! Alot of fun to see. Keep thinking outside the box!! Who knows you might come up with new tools and new techniques.
You made me think of an old Japanese swordfighter who was beloved and opened up SO many genres of later characters.
Can you look at "Zatoichi Challenged"? Show #17? Zaotichi is a blind master swordsman, and uses an icepick grip vs an obviously trained samurai, among other fighters as well.
Fantastic old show. Fantastic swordplay.
Skallagrim 2022 Mar 11 "Which is useful because now I can push it in... and uh thrust or... do whatever really" lmfao 4:40
mental note, stamina is vital to clairity.
This reminds me of Tanya from Mortal Kombat: Deception and Mortal Kombat: Armageddon, who used a pair of weapons very similar to this whole idea. I always wondered if such a weapon would actually be useful. Thanks for looking into this, Skall.
Wow, someone actually talking about this old gem. I loved this game as a kiddo.
Love the vid! I'm a 3D artist that's trying to fan remake these characters (and this particular character at the moment) with modern aesthetics, and your vid popped up while researching related equipment (scabbards/sheathes/belts). Definitely some leaps of logic in the design. As someone who is always interested in the practicality or history of things, the juxtaposition (or fight...heh) between my logic versus my appreciation for fantasy can be both fun and a little frustrating, especially as somewhat of a designer as well, as I try to "improve" these designs.
It's not dissimilar to evil monster designers (or kids/kids-at-heart) drawing spikes on the elbows of their characters, especially on winged creatures, which would causes all sorts of self-harm. There's a funny interaction in Jackson's The Lord of the Rings behind-the-scenes extras where John Howe (one of two leading artists of Tolkien's work, the other being Alan Lee) is jokingly criticized by another artist, who is experienced with birds, for him drawing spikes at the end of flying beasts' wings, which the other artist says, "Those couldn't work." John responds with, "Shut up. They look cool." lol. They apparently took their frustrations out on each other with sword play on breaks, Howe being a serious medieval reenactor as well.
The realistic plausibility/implausibility is always fascinating/funny, which I'm also constantly estimating/researching for. At the moment, I'm trying to figure out just how the heroes would carry their weapons on them most of the time, and what kind of design might work for easy sheathing/unsheathing access to the weapons. In-game and in the illustrations, they're never depicted as ever wearing any kind of scabbards, sheathes, or holsters for their weapons. It was likely intentional, because it makes them seem more non-violent, peace-loving, defensive orientated, rather than militaristic or genocidal (while murding cute and funny looking penguins en masse...). Again, lapses in logic for the sake of aesthetics or fun.
Small note, however, that all the playable characters' weapons also change design as you buy new ones. Some versions may be closer to "practical" than others, with the latter evidently and purposely based on "because it's cool" or "because it's cute". Vidya Games.
Anyway, appreciate the demonstration!
In the style of Kobudo we practice using tonfas we do have techniques that consist on swapping from "short" to "long grip" for defense and attack; you aim at soft spots like throat and eyes when attacking with a bit of extra reach and blocks are rather deflects.
Even when dealing with wood, it should not be much longer than your elbow because it becomes impractical quickly.
Also, we have a third grip when you swap and grab the tonfa and use it to hit as a hammer, in a similar way to swapping a Sai from short grip to long grip.
All in all, having a bladed/metal tonfa does not seem like a bad idea. A bit on the heavier side, but not that much.
I think you missed something I’d do often: Switch grips mid-stroke as needed to go dual-wield, switching back immediately after your offensive stroke.
Personally, I suspect your source game(?) just did this for the cool factor, seeing it as an eye catcher, but I can see using the position as a parry whilst duel-wielding in the main. Makes me consider new hilt designs :)
Thank you for your thought-provoking video!
The character does rotate it so the blade is forward for some special moves. Both swords also come as sets when you change equipment and look different.
That is what I am thinking as well. The benefit of this setup is that you have a defensive stance and an offensive stance that you can switch between with relative ease making it a fairly versatile style.
Skies of Arcadia was awesome, I hope someday they remake it
Damn, your friend HAS it, I don't know what IT is but golly!
I love the fact that he just has cool friends with awesome beards to do the sword experiments with! XD
I even know a movie, where they had something like a tonfa sword!
In the Prince of Persia movie, the leader of the Hassansins wielded something akin to a scimitar, where the handle was in a 90° angle to the blade.
The one he used could only be used like that, though. If you would draw a line straight down from the handle, that line would divide this single blade into a larger section, about the length of his underarm, and a short section, that could potentially be used as a sort of spike.
Now this created a wish I didn't knew I had:
Skal, could you please do a review of the weapons shown in Prince of Persia? They show an array of really cool and exotic looking weapons I've never seen used in any other movie.
Expecially the second,Warrior Within has a large variety of swords,maces and axes inspired by indo persian culture.
@@junichiroyamashita
I meant the movie, but weapons from the games are also interesting.
8:29 "I strike his sword aside"
Me, not paying complete attention: "What, swordicide? Yeah, that sounds about right."
As mentioned below Kroenen's dual, dual-blade tonfa in the first Hellboy film were interesting in that the "Sword grip" handle was another blade.
SoA is one of my favorite older RPGs on DC and GC. I wouldn't mind a remake.
The originals in the game were a pair of cutlasses, and from what I remember of the super move animations, the swords were usually different sizes (full sized for main hand, and about a hand shorter for his off hand). I figured they did this to make it a little closer to traditional 2-sword styles, while being mixed with an island aesthetic, wrapped in the fantasy pirate themes. Plus, between Vyse and Soul Calibur's Cervantes, what's cooler than a dual-wielding pirate?
Wow you talked pros about unconventional sword use/design. I haven't watched all of your videos, but usually they have been "why this won't work" this was really cool. Keep up the great work
Here's a thought, you swap the handle and blade, so there's a long handle and short blade so you can stab more easily while still getting the defensive benefits of the tonfa, plus you can use it as a short spear or potentially a club (via the handle) by gripping the long handle.
I like that idea, and if the long handle is largely or entirely wooden it makes the whole thing wider, and probably still lighter and more flexible, so better able to transfer and absorb the impact of the blow - the wood will crush and take some damage rather than transfer all of the impact into your arm - which may well be a fight saver, stoping or deflecting a powerful blow on a tonfa isn't gong to be nice - its going to stop the blow from cutting you but that is going to be one heck of a stinger with all the force transferred on a fairly narrow steel bar along your arm, and a potentially completely useless arm for at least a one sword stroke too long... Actually doesn't take all that much force either, anybody reasonably powerful landing a good hit with a stiff or heavy weapon on a tonfa could well numb that arm beyond use pretty easily - as the entire transferred force of their blow is likely delivered on only a very small patch of that long thin edge anyway - the blade isn't evenly pressed against the forarm, and can only pivot at the wrist so I expect most of the impact force will actually be delivered on a few centimeters of the blade somewhere very near the elbow..
Bros style is on point
Black coat
Jeans
Santa beard and mustache
Overall very drippy
Considering this is a game where the other main character uses an energy boomerang the size of a boogie board, while there's also a steampunk-cyborg Captain Ahab-type who fires his pneumatic hook-hand as a weapon, it's kinda neat to see there's some plausibility to what Vyse is doing with his other cutlass.
Also, just writing out that previous sentence reminded me of how cool Skies of Arcadia is.
There's a reason why skies of Arcadia is one of my favorite games of all time. :)
I always love when wacky designs and ideas end up being good (or atleast decently passable)
When the use of actual tonfa technique was brought up my first thought was to rotate the blade 90° in relation to the cross guard. That would allow for blocking with the flat as a default, as well as more slicing type movements based on actual tonfs techniques. The blade could even be made a little shorter and wider, and the pommel could even be pointed to allow for stabs.
A ring guard may help with this, it wouldn't be perfect but its the closest thing a quick search could find on existing sword types that have such a guard. I dare say if anyone ever made a doubled cross guard they were either terribly uncommon or named something incredulously hard to search for.
This is otherwise a really good point though. You need a different type of sword to use tonfa techniques properly as opposed to a standard arming sword. =) still we can dream can't we?
@@8-7-styx94 aren't there nail guards?
Yeah, a shorter blade (forearm length) wouldn't have the whole 'stab yourself' problem.
So kind of like Talim from _Soulcalibur,_ then?
5:20 just action surge and there you go
bah! He's got a feat that gives him "Quickend 1"... Play PATHFINDER 2E, cuz D&D is dead, wotc&hasbro kilt it.
Having played the game, Vyse mostly uses that weapon in a defensive style Parry/Riposte/thrust , only using the main grip in Combo moves Slashing on openings .
Yeah, it's also not double-edged AND he wears a thick coat so it actually helps the blade not slice him while he uses it for defense purposes.
It's been a while since I checked in with this channel, gotta say you are looking good, my man, glad to see you're taking good care of yourself.
Nobody has an appreciation for shields as a weapon. Spartans loved them for a reason. A good heater shield, with the 3 points at the top and the one at the bottom, could be used very offensively. Obviously, the forward punch with the top point, and the elbow down with the bottom point. But also, what about using the points at the left and right sides of the top, in hammer fisting motions? And let's not forget having a boss or spike right on the front of the shield for normal forward bashing. All of this gives you a great tool you can use to get on the inside with some respectable offensive capabilities.
Agreed, though a real shield is also bloody heavy and large compared to a buckler or Tonfa, so its not perhaps the most fair comparison.
If you do not know your weapon and use it incorrectly, you are the only one who will be hurt. I accept your advice.
I'm just glad you're having fun bro.
I enjoy all your videos
While I do think your analysis is pretty well thought out there is one thing that never really gets discussed in these videos. That is that Vyse is not engaging in many sword duels in the game but is often fighting monsters and other types of beasts. How would his style work against non-human opponents?
Interesting question in regards to context, however I think this video is moreso to showcase the weapon in a generalised sense.
It's an interesting look at a weapon and style, and seeing how effective it is in reality. Not that it would discount Vyse's use of it.
Which non-human opponent? They vary a little, even IRL. What I might choose to use against a vicious dog is going to be significantly different than say an attacking eagle, or a large cat.
Against anything capable of dishing out a powerful hit this is only going to end badly - as its really only good defensively for that deflecting that light stab/slashing attack that when spread over a thin strip of your forarm can be dealt with without harm (armor will help there but only so much), but even a blow from just a powerful human on a tonfa might well numb and maybe even cause a bone fracture or two, something that hits even harder than that I'd expect the bones in your forearm to break somewhere near the elbow every time - with the tonfa only able to pivot a bit at the wrist and likely not evenly supported along its length much of the force will concentrate there I suspect.
so in summation: it is just practical enough to justify how cool it looks, thats all I needed to hear baby, sword tonfa time it is
I liked the version used in Hellboy by the villain. Great video.
Tonfa Blades, turns out is not as silly as it sounds, also thanks for reminding me of my wish for a Suikoden Collection of some kind.
Talim from soulcalibur has several bladed tonfa like weapons that maybe worth a look. I was always fond of the dual crescent blades, but that may be cause they had the best damage potential in the game (for Talim at least).
Not only did you talk about Skies of Arcadia, you mentioned Suikoden 2. Both criminally underplayed gems.
Not to bring up an old topic, but this brings me back to Shad's topic on "is a weapon viable when something else is simply more effective?" Obviously we're talking about how effective a fantasy style is, but a shield or buckler would be just as if not more effective or as you demonstrated, simply holding it normally.
I have a beef with Tonfa and Sai/pop culture weapons as their effectiveness seems to be relative to the amount of suspension of disbelief for the premise.
Eh. Both are perfectly functional and effective as weapons. A tonfa is a more defensive club basically, and they've been adapted in some form into weapons for people who aren't supposed to kill the person they are fighting. Sai meanwhile are very short range but the entire point of the weapon is trying to catch someones weapon and then deal with them. Are their better alternatives? Maybe depends on the situation. I know I personally wouldn't use a Sai but I like a bigger safety net rather then a weapon that's basically saying 'If I'm skilled enough and more skilled then you I can kill you easily, if the reverse is true you'll win on the first swing'. Similarly in those kinds of fights I wouldn't want to wield a knife either though at least I could throw it possibly effectively.
Tonfa I'm more likely to actually use......now NUNCHUCKS that's a weapon I feel is more show then function. Its a club on a chain that takes huge amounts of skill to NOT clean your own clock, and more skill on top of that to have a chance in hell against an enemy wielding....anything longer then a knife? Though even among showy weapons there are some I love and would want to use....I'm particularly enamored with the Meteor Hammer/Rope Dart.
My biggest problem with it is I think the second sword would provide better defense held normally. This wouldn't even make sense if you couldn't use any shields for some reason.
@@xidarian Nah, this is better than dual wielding full length swords, but its also worse than sword and dagger in every way. I was gonna say it would be decent as an improvised shield, but he had to modify the quillon to have a decent grip.
I mean a tonfa is a twirly stick that really hurts and a sai is basically a giant fork. The physics to make them do what they are supposed to are present. Take my advice man: the next time you question whether something "works" or not you might not be realizing that most of the time you're really asking is wether or not it "works for you" because a twirly stick that really hurts and a giant fork are possible. A KamehameHAAAAA is not possible as far as we know
That and niches are a thing and niche ≠ not working.
@@Sandman382 If you quickly swing it out in surprise most of the force is gonna impact the guy with little left to harm you in the return trip. Sorta like a conealed carry (takes more time to draw out the damn thing then just leaving it out. ) or one of those extentdo sticks (holow tubes? Surely that isn't gonna survive much impact. Also you still gotta extend it to be useful? Talk about wasted time). It's all about context
Nunchuks work. Not physics are broken. It's a niche tool yes but still a workable tool and niche ≠ not working as intended. It just emans there are easier ways to do something but people want to stand out and make thigns work anyway
You mention Skies of Arcadia in 2022, you automatically have my like and subscribe! Take it easy, mate.
Reminds me of the zombie ninja nazi from hellboy, he used dual bladed tonfas
Yeah, Kroenen was cool AF.
@@Ycekhold agree definitely, actually wrote a story in college where the main character was based on him lol
One thing I do remember from doing martial arts in my childhood, mainly focusing on a hybrid Arnis/Judo/Kendo martial art which also touched base with other Okinawan weapons like tonfa, striking with the pommel.
On a couple of occasions where you have it bound either with the "offhand" sword or with the "tonfa" you could strike toward the weapon arm or torso of the opponent with the pommel like a tonfa thrust itself. From memory, just touching on length, the tonfa I used/saw used only extended maybe 3 inches/7cm-ish past the elbow to avoid any accidental self inflicted rib poking as well.
I think we are missing something, if there is such a weapon, and I would love one, The grip part of your sword would basically be a spike or a dagger and not a grip. That would make a lot more sense than just using a sword like a tonfa... let's make a tonfa sword altogether which is a different weapon as the hilt, that you're using as a grip, would be a different shape to make it an actual grip. English is not my first language and I hope I am making some kind of sense trying to explain my idea.
I'm honestly just happy you talked about Suikoden 2 in the end there :D
Man, I remember looking for this game for years as a kid, considering I grew up in the OG Arcadia in Greece. I wonder if I can find a digital copy these days 🤔
I'm pretty sure the only way to play it is with an emulator if you don't want to get a Dreamcast.
I made a quick search, it was released for the DC and nothing more.
Not that hard to emulate it though, even smartphones can do it.
@@andregon4366 Actually there is a Gamecube port, Skies of Arcadia Legends, but it is even more rare and coveted. If you find that for a good price, absolutely go for it
@@andregon4366 it's also out on the gamecube
I don't have any knowledge of the game but if it's on an older concole, you could probaly find it as a 'ROM' and play it on an emulation of whatever platform it was releassd for. It should run smoothly unless it is for the 3DS. I tried to play Mario & Luigi: Dream Team and it dropped too 2 F.P.S. on the title screen then crashed.
@@sephiroth21347 absolutely. New copies online are going for well over 200 dollars.
This reminds me of a really old game called Strider. The main character carries a sword called a cypher. It has a tonfa grip in addition to a two-hander hilt.
"Why not just use a shield" was the singular question running through my mind throughout this episode.
Gripping it by the guard as seen could be from drawing the weapon in a hurry or having disarmed an opponent.
I don’t know if we’ve seen him before, but he has a phenomenal beard
It seems like a resourceful technique. It's not exactly a reason to bring a two swords instead of a sword and a shield, but if you have reason to bring two swards, this is a good technique. Also I think this would work better if there was a spike at the end of the handle, so it kinda functions like a dagger
Really enjoying the recent videos.
The main issue with reverse grip or tonfa type weapons is that they can't effectively guard against thrusts or missile fire, where even a small shield offers better defence.
"Missile fire"
That is one dedicated mugger
@@lilylopnco Well done! You've won Most Idiotic Reply Of The Day.
The way skal was holding it would probably offer better defence than a buckler against thrusts, since it has the ability to hook. The problem is that a parry dagger is better in every way.
He did show a defense or two against thrusts but I wouldn't disagree. I would think a buckler would be better defense in general.
@@maxvarjagen9810 I won't bother with your first claim as your justification is nonsense. Sure, a fighter could deflect a thrust he saw coming, but a buckler protects a larger area with less effort.
The parry dagger or short sword in the off hand certainly makes more sense.
Unironically, 2 of Vyse's Super Moves result in countering all physical attacks. 1 is just for him while the other is for the party. Glad you brought up one of my favorite games Skall.
Hey, I made that design in my early teens. I was inspired by the handle of a hay knife. My design proved a bit too large and heavy though, as it was a two handed sword with a grip on the guard.
You know the thing I like the most about your look at this style of grip holding is how much you point out just how much control it gives you to force the enemy's blade off of the Centerline and I see this as a guy who has roughly about 2 years give or take in Japanese swordsmanship classes which was only enough for me to really start to get to the point of intermediate to slightly more Advanced Techniques and things like that and the only reason I stopped was because of covid but the biggest thing I have learned in my time and that Japanese swordsmanship class was very much so you need always and I truly do mean always hold that Centerline because if you give up the Centerline Fini open yourself up to the your opponent because now you have to take time to put your blade back towards facing your enemy in a position where you can easily defend from probably the biggest benefit of this style is it really does give you so many options against even a good opponent who may just be getting sloppy or who you may just be more athletic than.
What if the blade was perpendicular to the grip like talims weapon
It'd likely work just like a tonfa. Although the issues of self injury or getting the blade stuck on a thrust comes to mind, along with the weaker grip you'd have in using it, and the lack of versatility from being unable to flip it like a tonfa?
With a big ol blade like this though, you could likely just mordhau, no problem.
Probably better for thrusting, but worse for cutting.
I could see self injury if the blade was too long. Im not sure about not being able to spin it like a tonfa though. Skall can flip this sword in his hand. Only difference I see is that if the blade was perpendicular to the grip, the flip motion could generate a cut rather than a slapping with the flat. I think the thrust would be the same in either orientation and wouldn't be any different. Kind of like push daggers
I've been looking for a good novel, thankyou this is right up my alley
I would think in dual wielding, that a blunt weapon would go best with a sword. That way you have the reach and damage potential of a bladed weapon coupled with the armor penetration of say a hammer or mace. Personal opinion.
There's actually a 16th century treatise listing dual wielding with 2 swords and its main movements. See Puey's videos about Godinho's work.
Good idea. Although a dagger is a popular choice for anti armour?
@@mundanetwig True. However, with a blunt weapon, you don't have to focus on gap exploitation, so it's easier to cause damage.
@@ramzen89 true. Difference of opinion I suppose.
@@ramzen89 The only problem is that blunt weapons tend to be less balanced in weight-distribution, which means it benefits them being held in the main hand more than the off-hand. This would then push the sword into the off-hand, which makes it a bit harder to use than simply having a dagger, which is quite easy to control even in an off-hand.
Just a thought. Main hand :single handed sword. Support hand : a sturdy cross 1ft 1.5ft long. Like a straight up religious cross.
If used certain ways this CAN work. He's basically using two sabers like they're Tonfa anyways looks like. An some the slashing abilities capable of would be more lethal then some stabs. An so long as the blade side against the arm is not edged or you wear gear of at least minimum protective nature should be easy to make stuff work. An anyone that likes to LITERALLY disarm basically finds that impossible to disable an arm that protected by a whole blade that could anytime be flipped around for lethal stabs an slashes at very close range of their own. All it requires is some outside the box thinking and to be very aware of what one can do with both traditional blades of the suitable kind, Tonfa an such hybrids especially.
Your friend’s beard is awesome 😎 Thanks for video about unusual and interesting fantasy technique!
I feel like, as soon as armor comes into play, the Tonfa Sword would be pretty bad.
Could move the blade toward the neck and press with your elbow, slide it along and 'GRKKH' ya got a dead man walking. Then again you're gonna have more mobility as it is a defensive weapon, can just knock the guy on his ass and it'll take him a while to get up again.
@@boxtank5288 Ok. But what about the armored man who REALLY doesn't want to be stabbed in the neck?
@@ZergleJerk That is going to be where it gets TRICKY. To sieze that opportunity one must work to use the armor's weight and encumberance to their advantage. If they wear the armor like a second skin then it's far less likely you'll emerge victorious even if you had a Morningstar or War Hammer. Victory would have to be won by sheer attrition. Namely exhausting them and then exploiting the exhaustion to deliver the killing blow.
@@boxtank5288 I think we have all figured out that you can wear most armor for prolonged periods and be ok. No. The tonfa sword will be basically useless unless the dude has a shorter weapon than you, so basically a dagger, or AND you are a ju jitsu master.
@@ZergleJerk Right, as I said. Anyone competent in Armor (or worse yet, able to wear it like it's a second skin) is a foe the weapon is just unable to beat. Even when one takes into consideration dual-wielding (a technique that was in FENCING so not outlandish and impossible unlike with guns) it becomes arduous at best and impossible at worse.
Have you seen Wushu Rooster Knives? Bladed tonfa with hand guards, so not meant for spinning. And the point of the long end, near the elbow, has hooks or barbs pointed out.
What about trying it with the handle quillon tangent to the flat of the blade instead of the edge? Then you could have the flat as the arm shield like you wanted and could spin rapidly between fore and rear pointing positions. Double edged also ceases to be a problem so it works in both directions. I would choose a length that extends only a bit past my elbow, maybe 10 or 12 cm.
It would basically lead to the same situation like with the reverse grip bracing the flat of the blade against the forearm.
In most cases the blade is not wide enough to cover the forearm and exposes it to be cut.
Honestly the problem with spinning it forward at all while using the tonfa grip is that your ability to maintain its alignment becomes so incredibly weak. If you're gripping it by the crossguard, you're providing an absolutely perfect pivot point: even with a reasonably wide grip (as his modification shows in the video), your opponent would barely have to exert any force on the tip to deflect it. Arguably, reorienting the tonfa grip would actually make this worse because you would be trying to cut within the plane of the blade's natural rotation, where your ability to exert force is weakest.
I agree with the other replies about the alignment and spinning issues. But look up Nandao sword from Wushu (Kung Fu). There's a grip flip technique which has thumb and forefinger around the rear quillon, other fingers around the front quillon, blade flat against the arm. You'd have to twist your arm a lot for defense, but it's easier to return to normal grip. I think Lindybeige shows the grip in his 1st video on Butterfly swords.
OMG. Skies of Arcadia is the best Steampunk game ever created. One of my all time favorite games! So glad to see you review something from it!
I think the moral of the story is Tonfas are freaking awesome
The 1976 Shaw Brothers film THE MAGIC BLADE features a tonfa sword used by the main protagonist. His version has a much smaller blade resembling a machete and he keeps it in a hoister-like scabbard on his leg. His fighting style closely resembles traditional tonfa combat but with more sweeping motions for cutting/slashing.
I think the coolest Tonfa Swords/Bladed Tonfas I’ve seen are Shingetsu and Mangetsu, the ones wielded by the Japanese God Tsukuyomi in the game Smite.
Tonfas are one of my favorite weapons, if only they got more recognition
Watching this I'm reminded of the recent Mortal Kombat movie and the bladed Tonfa wielded by Cole Young wherein the short end has a curved blade. I cannot help but think if the curved end were either longer, double edged or had a sharper curve like a Kama, it would add a lot to the offensive and defensive flexibility of the bladed Tonfa.
I’m so happy to see the tonfa sword and Skies of Arcadia. Used to be one of my favorite games when I was little.
I tried making a tonfa-sword for a LARP. I put the guard/handle on the flat of the blade so that swinging it like a tonfa would hit with the blade. I played a bit with it but never ended up using it with someone else. Do you think it could work?
My test also had a shorter blade, only two inches past my elbow. I don't have the same reach with thrusts and tonfa swings but I'm not as likely to stab myself and it helps with dual weilding too.
For context, I have no swordfighting experience outside LARP.
When I owned a katana + wakazashi set, I found that the wakasashi sheath was about the right size to be a regular tonfa, though you’d need to add the perpendicular bit normally grabbed. A wooden scabbard would not survive use as a tonfa, but a metal scabbard could both function as a tonfa and hold the wakazashi. It would only really work if you draw the blade, and keep the tonfa as an off-hand weapon / defense.
My first thought was: "Why not use a tonfa instead?" Then again, it seems more like a matter of convenience, when you want to use something as a defensive weapon in your offhand, but only same sized swords are available.
But if I've had a choice to use a weapon in a similar style, I would opt for a bec de corbin with a shortened handle - as would any kid, who picked up a hammer.
Tonfa themselves always beg questions like
"Why not use a Sai"
Or frankly
Several other defensive implements you can bonk someone with
dude, that guy you're practicing with has the coolest beard
anyways, sick video and a fascinating concept
If you wanted to make a sword specifically for this, make it an estoc/smallsword triangular blade, with one edge sharpened and the other two flattened to rest against the arm. You still have some edge for draw cuts and a point which can still be used like a regular sword.
Time to fashion my old mosin bayonet into one of these.
@@8-7-styx94 I mean, that would be closer to an actual tonfa, dimension-wise
In the matter of changing the grip so that the point is looking forwards, in a tonfa you would slide forwards from the guard position to attack, the tonfa being blunt can attack while changing stance effectively, perhaps changing the swords crossguard to accomodate for such use would make it useful.
Skies of arcadia was ghe first video game I beat. It deserves to be remastered. Truly a hidden masterpiece
I'd direct you to Tales of Phantasia, at least the first episode of the animation. The main character uses a sword with a three-point guard and uses the non-edge-aligned guard, which is a rounded spoke rather than the tapered or square guard, as a second grip. It's used for both a big lever-action swing and for this tonfa guarding. It ends up defending with the flat rather than the blade.