Beautiful playing! I listened to these about three times each carefully to confirm to myself how certain parts sounded - I’m happy to say I identified the instruments correctly both times. I love the sound of the basset horn - it seems more focused and certain lower-note passages were just exquisite. That said, the alto clarinet is close. There is no way I could ever afford a basset horn, but the lower cost of the alto clarinet makes it very attractive - it is a wonderful instrument.
The timbre of the alto's low E helped give it away on the Mendelssohn. It would be more difficult to discern on a low Eb instrument. The clarity of the modern Buffet basset skews it a bit, so this makes me wonder what it would be like with a new Buffet Prestige alto vs. basset horn. Very interesting. Thanks for posting!
Yes, exactly, because I don't have the low Eb, the B over the break and the low E don't have a vent hole so they really stick out. I think it's pretty hard to tell on the Grainger though!
@@JasonAlder Does your alto clarinet respond well to a throat G♯ "flick" to suppress the hard attack on third line B? I've never seen a B♭ clarinet where this _doesn't_ work well, but with alto clarinets it is far less consistent from one make to the next.
@@JasonAlder That is also the case with my Bundy Selmer. Fortunately it does have a low E♭ so it's not such a problem, but I have to use the jump key for B♭ because the register/B♭ toggle works just fine, it just doesn't sound good. I can use the same jump key for a flick onto B♮ but that basically requires using my right thumb well out of position to do the flick. It's basically not performable, but I can prove it works. I suspect the throat A key would work if there were a way to flick it alone (without the G♯), but even if I were willing to live with a poorly adjusted crossing of those two keys, it would be a big ask to just barely bump it at speed, while simultaneously fingering long B♮. So file that one under tricks that work on some instruments and not others.
The basset horn was invented around 1770, while the alto clarinet came around 1809. The first alto clarinets were pitched in F, like the basset horn. Production of the alto clarinet in F fell off after 1860s with Selmer. After this, all altos were pitched in Eb, some with the low Eb key, some without.
I could not tell them apart, though perhaps I wasn't listening for the right things... And I pride myself on my ears' ability to pick up on subtle differences. All the same, I very much appreciate your sharing this, as well as your promotion of the alto clarinet and basset horn as viable instruments. I think the band world is richer for having these oft-neglected members of the clarinet family.
I would really like to hear more from you on the alto since there is still very little available here on yt performed by skillfull players. Nice video!
I wish we couldve heard a Buffet alto clarinet instead of Kohlert because listening I feel like all I heard is the rich, focused sound of a Buffet vs a Kohlert.
I got it right on both excerpts, mainly because I can hear that the Kohlert alto sounds a bit less focused and "clean" than the Buffet Basset. That said, the timbre difference is subtle and it takes very sensitive ears like mine to detect it. p.s. Now I know why the Selmer alto I tested years ago sounded more compact than the Buffet Basset (courtesy of the Hong Kong Phil), the former's bore is smaller, in fact around the same size as the Oehler/Reform Boehm horns!
@@ZiSlepovitch Also another point to note is that the Buffet Basset has a throat Bb vent while the Kohlert alto doesn't appear to have, which might be why the the Kohlert's scale isn't as good as the Buffet's.
You can tell which is the alto because the higher register sings much more clearly on the basset, you can hear almost like a bass clarinet like sound on the higher notes which gives it away that it's an alto clarinet playing
Got it right but I'm thinking this probably has more to do with a broken clock being right twice a day or a blind pig finding truffles. Pure luck? I wonder! But I loved the sound/tone and felt they were quite different. Thanks for this fascinating video on two sorely neglected members of the clarinet family.
I guessed correctly. The bassett horn has a darker, fuller, more mellifluous tone quality than the alto clarinet. The alto clarinet has a sharp, buzzy sound.
I think the Basset Horn sounds a little gruff sounding; but might fit into a clarinet choir; contrabass, bass, Bb and Eb a Clarinet Quintet I wonder? Five clarinet voices, a challenge ...
Great video and beautiful play. I love the two excerpt. I would tend to prefer the sound projection of the basset in your recording. from a novice side, they are very different to tell apart. Thank s a lot.
The basset is much brighter and definitely has that buffet sound. I noticed the alto because of the warmer upper register and the darker low notes. The alto tends to be much more resistant (IMO) especially the older LeBlanc models with the curved neck. The buffet basset horns are very audible and when you hear it, you know it’s a buffet lol
6 of one and half-a-dozen of other.. Guessed wrong both times but I'm an oboist. Far as I could tell it was just two different clarinetists, not two different clarinets play by the same person.. The held "e" seemed to go flat with the Grainger excerpt on the first one (basset horn).
It would be interesting to do this comparison again but with a selmer basset horn, as it has a true basset horn bore. The other basset horns are more accurately alto clarinets in F.
Yes, well the point of this was that they were the same dimensions. A selmer, fox, or other small bore basset would definitely sound different. And I agree, the other modern basset horns are low C alto clarinets in F… which again is kind of my point here, to sway this permeating alto clarinet hatred
Thanks Jason! Awesome! I’ve been contemplating on weather to grab an alto or basset lately.I did like the sound of the Basset better here, which is surprising and I’m wondering how much of that is due to the difference in the condition of these two particular horns. What would you say?
Oguz Buyukberber yes, that can be a consideration. The alto is much older and not as good of an instrument overall. My main interest for this video was because they’re exactly the same bore size, but I’m also interested to try the same experiment with a Buffet alto and basset, although the alto is a bigger bore which changes my whole point there... and also with Leblancs because they’re also both the same, although much larger. Also one of the biggest things in this video is my alto only goes to low E, so you can really hear the timbre change on the long B because there’s no vent hole. In the Grainger excerpt I hear very little difference, but you can really hear it in the Mendelssohn. PS, are you coming to Camerino? You’re in the program but I haven’t seen you... if so, see you in the next days and we can talk more about it!
I have been having a argument with the marching band, band directors assistant for like going on two years now. Shes a proffesional clarinetist. But everytime I bring up the Alto clarinet she automaticly calls it Garbage!!! I cant change her mind its like impossible! I have tried to proved her wrong so many times.
It's a struggle... the alto clarinet suffers from a long history of abuse and shaming, which has a caused a cyclical problem. The truth is, most alto clarinets are just not very good instruments, so nobody wants to play it at a high level. And because nobody want to play it, manufacturers don't want to make better instruments. But, if someone puts in the practice, there's no reason it can't be just as legitimate of a member fo the family as any other clarinet.
The best alto clarinet is probably the Buffet Prestige. I haven't tried a current Selmer to know for sure about it. Basset horns depend on whether you want small bore (Selmer) or larger bore (Buffet is kind of medium, Leblanc is large).
The A♯-to-B transition in the Mendelssohn reveals the basset horn to be the last, because the crossing of the break is audible (as is the non-crossing on the alto clarinet). Otherwise I couldn't tell. One thing I don't understand is why alto clarinets can't gain a low D to give the same bottom range to both. It could even be on the bell section rather than the body, so if there is any need, the instrument could be played with a "normal" low E♭ and the right thumb key would simply flop around and do nothing if pressed. Joe Lovano used alto clarinet on multiple albums, and I can understand why a jazz saxophone player would find an instrument in E♭ easier to deal with than one in F. That's all historical accident though, I think military bands would have been just as well served if they had chosen to place the in-between instruments in F rather than a mixture of some F but mostly E♭. I've also had alto clarinets both with and without a low E♭, and as you point out in another comment, this matters more on third line B than anywhere else. Crossing the break without the extra hole is just plain harder to do seamlessly. Other than that, both instruments played just fine. I ended up trading the low E instrument for a better B♭ clarinet, as a friend had too many B♭s and no alto. In his hands, there was a slight tonal difference between the two, and the one without the low E♭ was a bit more lyrical -- and he's also in the habit of flicking the throat G♯ every time he plays a soft third line B, which keeps it from popping. This actually doesn't work well at all on the low E♭ instrument, but it doesn't need to since the break isn't as abrupt. We both ended up happy with our single (each) alto clarinets.
Actually, just last month I bought a Selmer low E♭ alto, and am having a low D extension made. I also had a German basset horn mouthpiece custom made with a French alto clarinet tenon. Steve Fox recommends this on medium bore instruments to retain that true basset horn sound. As soon as the mods are done and I have the instrument I’m curious about doing this experiment again.
@@JasonAlder If you play the middle B♮ and C on alto clarinet using the trill keys, but don't do that on basset horn, the break would be in the same place on both, and a sense of absolute pitch isn't going to help distinguish between them. It might just end up trading one tell for another though, if it makes things too clunky.
Got them both. The basset has a tone more like a soprano clarinet, more focused in the low end. The alto sound is more open and "airy".
Beautiful playing! I listened to these about three times each carefully to confirm to myself how certain parts sounded - I’m happy to say I identified the instruments correctly both times. I love the sound of the basset horn - it seems more focused and certain lower-note passages were just exquisite. That said, the alto clarinet is close. There is no way I could ever afford a basset horn, but the lower cost of the alto clarinet makes it very attractive - it is a wonderful instrument.
2 years later... If you haven't yet, save your pennies and get the basset horn: You'll be happier.
The timbre of the alto's low E helped give it away on the Mendelssohn. It would be more difficult to discern on a low Eb instrument. The clarity of the modern Buffet basset skews it a bit, so this makes me wonder what it would be like with a new Buffet Prestige alto vs. basset horn. Very interesting. Thanks for posting!
Yes, exactly, because I don't have the low Eb, the B over the break and the low E don't have a vent hole so they really stick out. I think it's pretty hard to tell on the Grainger though!
@@JasonAlder Does your alto clarinet respond well to a throat G♯ "flick" to suppress the hard attack on third line B? I've never seen a B♭ clarinet where this _doesn't_ work well, but with alto clarinets it is far less consistent from one make to the next.
@@mal2ksc interesting, I had never tried it before. It does indeed work well on my B♭, but on the alto there’s too much change in pitch.
@@JasonAlder That is also the case with my Bundy Selmer. Fortunately it does have a low E♭ so it's not such a problem, but I have to use the jump key for B♭ because the register/B♭ toggle works just fine, it just doesn't sound good. I can use the same jump key for a flick onto B♮ but that basically requires using my right thumb well out of position to do the flick. It's basically not performable, but I can prove it works. I suspect the throat A key would work if there were a way to flick it alone (without the G♯), but even if I were willing to live with a poorly adjusted crossing of those two keys, it would be a big ask to just barely bump it at speed, while simultaneously fingering long B♮.
So file that one under tricks that work on some instruments and not others.
The basset horn was invented around 1770, while the alto clarinet came around 1809. The first alto clarinets were pitched in F, like the basset horn. Production of the alto clarinet in F fell off after 1860s with Selmer. After this, all altos were pitched in Eb, some with the low Eb key, some without.
Leblanc made some altos in F around the 1950s
I could not tell them apart, though perhaps I wasn't listening for the right things... And I pride myself on my ears' ability to pick up on subtle differences.
All the same, I very much appreciate your sharing this, as well as your promotion of the alto clarinet and basset horn as viable instruments. I think the band world is richer for having these oft-neglected members of the clarinet family.
Wrong both times, but at least I could identify the two timbres and match them. Nice bore diameter list!
I would really like to hear more from you on the alto since there is still very little available here on yt performed by skillfull players. Nice video!
I wish we couldve heard a Buffet alto clarinet instead of Kohlert because listening I feel like all I heard is the rich, focused sound of a Buffet vs a Kohlert.
If I ever have the chance to have both Buffets in my hands at once I’ll make another video!
Super interesting comparison, thanks for sharing!
I got it right on both excerpts, mainly because I can hear that the Kohlert alto sounds a bit less focused and "clean" than the Buffet Basset. That said, the timbre difference is subtle and it takes very sensitive ears like mine to detect it.
p.s. Now I know why the Selmer alto I tested years ago sounded more compact than the Buffet Basset (courtesy of the Hong Kong Phil), the former's bore is smaller, in fact around the same size as the Oehler/Reform Boehm horns!
"Kohlert alto sounds a bit less focused and "clean" than the Buffet Basset" - Same observation here. Also, Buffet has a better scale.
@@ZiSlepovitch Also another point to note is that the Buffet Basset has a throat Bb vent while the Kohlert alto doesn't appear to have, which might be why the the Kohlert's scale isn't as good as the Buffet's.
thanx for the work! ...and by the way: BEAUTIFUL PLAYING on both horns!
Yes, that really helped confirm for me my lifelong feelings about the alto clarinet! hahaha
You can tell which is the alto because the higher register sings much more clearly on the basset, you can hear almost like a bass clarinet like sound on the higher notes which gives it away that it's an alto clarinet playing
Got it right but I'm thinking this probably has more to do with a broken clock being right twice a day or a blind pig finding truffles. Pure luck? I wonder! But I loved the sound/tone and felt they were quite different. Thanks for this fascinating video on two sorely neglected members of the clarinet family.
I guessed correctly. The bassett horn has a darker, fuller, more mellifluous tone quality than the alto clarinet. The alto clarinet has a sharp, buzzy sound.
Next video should be "Alpo on a Clarinet vs. Basset Hound" 🐾
I think the Basset Horn sounds a little gruff sounding; but might fit into a clarinet choir; contrabass, bass, Bb and Eb a Clarinet Quintet I wonder?
Five clarinet voices, a challenge ...
Great video and beautiful play. I love the two excerpt. I would tend to prefer the sound projection of the basset in your recording. from a novice side, they are very different to tell apart. Thank s a lot.
I play alto and recognized it. Basset horn is more "soprano-like with a lower register".
The basset is much brighter and definitely has that buffet sound. I noticed the alto because of the warmer upper register and the darker low notes. The alto tends to be much more resistant (IMO) especially the older LeBlanc models with the curved neck. The buffet basset horns are very audible and when you hear it, you know it’s a buffet lol
6 of one and half-a-dozen of other.. Guessed wrong both times but I'm an oboist. Far as I could tell it was just two different clarinetists, not two different clarinets play by the same person.. The held "e" seemed to go flat with the Grainger excerpt on the first one (basset horn).
It would be interesting to do this comparison again but with a selmer basset horn, as it has a true basset horn bore. The other basset horns are more accurately alto clarinets in F.
Yes, well the point of this was that they were the same dimensions. A selmer, fox, or other small bore basset would definitely sound different. And I agree, the other modern basset horns are low C alto clarinets in F… which again is kind of my point here, to sway this permeating alto clarinet hatred
@@JasonAlder The undeserved hate the alto clarinet gets is one of the biggest injustices in the musical instrument world.
@@pukalo fax
this is why we need them to have different bore
so the difference is more obvious
Thanks Jason! Awesome! I’ve been contemplating on weather to grab an alto or basset lately.I did like the sound of the Basset better here, which is surprising and I’m wondering how much of that is due to the difference in the condition of these two particular horns. What would you say?
Oguz Buyukberber yes, that can be a consideration. The alto is much older and not as good of an instrument overall. My main interest for this video was because they’re exactly the same bore size, but I’m also interested to try the same experiment with a Buffet alto and basset, although the alto is a bigger bore which changes my whole point there... and also with Leblancs because they’re also both the same, although much larger. Also one of the biggest things in this video is my alto only goes to low E, so you can really hear the timbre change on the long B because there’s no vent hole. In the Grainger excerpt I hear very little difference, but you can really hear it in the Mendelssohn.
PS, are you coming to Camerino? You’re in the program but I haven’t seen you... if so, see you in the next days and we can talk more about it!
I have been having a argument with the marching band, band directors assistant for like going on two years now. Shes a proffesional clarinetist. But everytime I bring up the Alto clarinet she automaticly calls it Garbage!!! I cant change her mind its like impossible! I have tried to proved her wrong so many times.
It's a struggle... the alto clarinet suffers from a long history of abuse and shaming, which has a caused a cyclical problem. The truth is, most alto clarinets are just not very good instruments, so nobody wants to play it at a high level. And because nobody want to play it, manufacturers don't want to make better instruments. But, if someone puts in the practice, there's no reason it can't be just as legitimate of a member fo the family as any other clarinet.
But can anyone tell me the best of the best alto clarinets and also the best basset horn models and brands??? For the future when I buy one.
The best alto clarinet is probably the Buffet Prestige. I haven't tried a current Selmer to know for sure about it. Basset horns depend on whether you want small bore (Selmer) or larger bore (Buffet is kind of medium, Leblanc is large).
I was right, and I know nothing of music. :/ Beautiful playing!
Is your Kohlert from Graslitz, or from Winnenden?
Graslitz, but marked Kraslice, which indicates it was after German occupation, but before they moved to Winnenden.
The basset horn sounded better both times
Is a Basset Horn a clarinet or not???????????????????
Yes
The A♯-to-B transition in the Mendelssohn reveals the basset horn to be the last, because the crossing of the break is audible (as is the non-crossing on the alto clarinet). Otherwise I couldn't tell. One thing I don't understand is why alto clarinets can't gain a low D to give the same bottom range to both. It could even be on the bell section rather than the body, so if there is any need, the instrument could be played with a "normal" low E♭ and the right thumb key would simply flop around and do nothing if pressed.
Joe Lovano used alto clarinet on multiple albums, and I can understand why a jazz saxophone player would find an instrument in E♭ easier to deal with than one in F. That's all historical accident though, I think military bands would have been just as well served if they had chosen to place the in-between instruments in F rather than a mixture of some F but mostly E♭.
I've also had alto clarinets both with and without a low E♭, and as you point out in another comment, this matters more on third line B than anywhere else. Crossing the break without the extra hole is just plain harder to do seamlessly. Other than that, both instruments played just fine. I ended up trading the low E instrument for a better B♭ clarinet, as a friend had too many B♭s and no alto. In his hands, there was a slight tonal difference between the two, and the one without the low E♭ was a bit more lyrical -- and he's also in the habit of flicking the throat G♯ every time he plays a soft third line B, which keeps it from popping. This actually doesn't work well at all on the low E♭ instrument, but it doesn't need to since the break isn't as abrupt. We both ended up happy with our single (each) alto clarinets.
Actually, just last month I bought a Selmer low E♭ alto, and am having a low D extension made. I also had a German basset horn mouthpiece custom made with a French alto clarinet tenon. Steve Fox recommends this on medium bore instruments to retain that true basset horn sound. As soon as the mods are done and I have the instrument I’m curious about doing this experiment again.
@@JasonAlder If you play the middle B♮ and C on alto clarinet using the trill keys, but don't do that on basset horn, the break would be in the same place on both, and a sense of absolute pitch isn't going to help distinguish between them. It might just end up trading one tell for another though, if it makes things too clunky.