KTM 790 Cheese - FA Part 0
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- Charlie's video - • KTM Camshafts failure ...
Charlie's vidoe has all the details you might wanna know, which I'm not going to repeat as he's done this video.
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You need to put “cams” or “camshafts” in the title so it appears in Google searches when people are looking.
Mo, because this is part 0
LOL mo. I meant no.
It’s funny how none of the usual bike reviewers are talking about this, I guess they are worried about never being invited to a bike launch ever again.
Its criminal that the testers don't recognise this - they should also be liable! The exception is Big Rock Moto.
My 790 was cactus @ 23,000. KTM did provide replacement parts... but are they better>
@@daveramsay8887if it tastes like feta cheese then it's soft
KTM bought pretty much 100% of the press with free bikes, track days and vacations dressed up as “tests”. It’s pretty obvious when you see most of the journos with long test KTM bikes dici riding the brand like crazy.
Exactly. Thats why i can not trust the things that Fork in the Road and others report on.
Essentially, they're compromised. Compromised in the aspect of not being transparent, working with dealerships to do reviews and praising the bikes for the good, and then ignoring the bad.
That is disingenuous. Period. Everyone in the world know for a fact that ktm has gotten bad over the last 5 years on certain models.
Instead of being critical and demanding better, some channels are easily persuaded to sweep known problems under the rug.
95% of channels are this way. It is what it is.
They'd prefer being dishonest to their base, if it means holding onto their little piece of the TH-cam motovlogger gig.
There is one channel who is transparent and has never ignored bikes downsides.
Ian S, from the channel Big Rock Moto.
He is one of the few mainstream channels that is popular across the globe, and who is transparent.
His channel is one of the few that i even care to subscribe to.
The other channels like loaded fork in the road cant even get a view out of me anymore, let alone a subscription.
It will all come full circle. The market will work itself out. It always does.
Sooner or later, the market will see the same disingenuous approach by some channels, and those channels will continue to lose viewers.
KTM in a nutshell, here's your bike now f off, it ran when it left the factory ! !
Number one reason I’m put off getting one!
Probably didn't even ran.
One guy wrote he got brand new 890 and dealer informed him it have low oil pressure error on dash 😂😂
I mean it can't get any worse, brand new bike with literally 0 mileage, comes with errors already!
Been riding KTM since 2014, I replaced a 10pence fuse in years of riding my 450 in the worst type of conditions week in and out, my latest 500 exc has done 9k miles with me in less than 18mths and hasn't cost 1 pence aside consumables. I suppose my point is that KTM are not bad bikes, maybe some have errors as is clear here but that is not the case with all. I bet there are exponentially more people without a single issue than there are the contrary.
@@ogasi1798my 1090R was solid, my 890 R ain’t.
I had a zero mile Norden lose the water pump seal and dump all the coolant into the motor. Good thing my brother in law noticed the oil color in the sightglass before I left the dealership! They paid for my motel and set me up with a new bike .
KTM stands for Keep Training Mechanics, because of all the impending failures
Or in german, Keine Tausend Meter (No thousand meters)... One might wonder why lol
Keeps Taking Money (my experience with 1290 SDR)
KTM actually stands for 'Keep Throwing Money'
Maybe KTM got hold of some schematics of 82-86 Honda VF750 engines and thought that will work.
I remember them well, forced Honda to develop some of the best bikes ever made ie the RC30 and VFR750F’s. I will be amazed if KTM choose a similar route, but there is hope.
Dale Walker oiling kit
I look forward to the testing. Thanks for your efforts
Same with 890 engines as well. It’s not made with cheese, it’s made with Chinese tofu…..😂
I'm glad to see someone showing what the direction of flow is. Seeking real answers about the camshafts. Maybe it's not as important as I think and should not be overlooked but could the fact that some lobes are chewed and others not be due to improper valve clearances on some and proper on others. Also not to be overlooked are potential variances in cam follower's material. Also since the cams are an assembly of sections those sections could be manufactured by different contractors, shipped to yet another sub contractor for assembly. Looking forward to the next follow-up video.
Almost a class action case for ktm on this
I've got a 2023 KTM 890 Adventure and I'll be following up on these ongoing issues and looking forward to seeing if this is ever resolved. Great video and I'm glad I subscribed and also joined your channel as a patron!
KTM... Ready to Replace..
Amen and
#FUCKKTM
Ready To Repair
.......At your expense
@@brianevans1946 Known To Malfunction
😂😂😂
Here is something interesting to think about: Went to pick-up my bike after a service, bike was idling on sidestand, dealer said they have to do it after oil service to check oil level after reaching working temp, also said that they need to check if cooling fan does its job.......if it is the cam on the right-side of engine failing, it could be that not enough oil is getting to the "highest" part with excessive idling on sidestand? I never do a warm-up idle before I ride, I start and immediately start riding, time will tell I guess.
What strikes me is how bad KTM handle this problem which triggers me not to buy a ktm anymore.
The prematurely worn camshafts is not only occurring on KTMs but on some late model BMWs. They too have also required camshafts to be replaced on low mileage examples.
Perhaps now these engines and components are now produced in the PRC the quality of same has suffered.
Pretty sad really for both of these manufacturers as it will deter many potential buyers.
Cams are manufactured with seperate lobes onto a tube then they use hydraulics to expand the tube locking the lobes in place. Tech is about 20 years old.
Quite a lot of cams in the car world are press fit these days, when cambelts/chains fail, they knock the lobes out of position
aren't these high precision things supposed to be machined?
Just got my 790 Duke 2018, back from service at 38,000 miles. Cams worn out, not as bad as in the video but need replacing. Waiting for reply form dealer who contacted ktm hoping they will do good will warranty even tho bike is 6 years old now. but some people getting good will cam replacements from KTM since the issue is more and more common. People wont know the cams are destroyed unless they open the engine for valve check which is at 18k miles. There were two other 790s at the dealer with destroyed cams, one at 10k miles, other one at 20k miles.
Good luck, fingers crossed you get it sorted. KTM 100% won't even consider a good will claim unless you have full service history from an official dealership... and even then they might not play ball depending on their mood at the time. Their customer service and after sales care are pretty poor from HQ.
I got full service history etc, but like you said it up to them an thier mood :/@@MotoGoato
Goodwill from ktm good luck😂😂😂
#FUCKKTM
Inexcusable. Poor engineering at premium prices. KTM is permanently off my list of possibe motorcycle brands, STEER CLEAR!
An introduction to the cast of characters in a murder mystery play.
Dealer did my valve check at around 19K miles on my 2021 KTM 890 Adventure. No premature cam wear reported to me. Currently at 26K miles. I hope I have a good batch of cam lobes or glad I keep my oil level on the very upper range of oil sight glass.
I battled with coolant leak since owning bike. Finally got dealer to change my coolant thermostat housing and thermostat and open an Out of Warranty claim. Never had these issues with my other bikes ( Yamaha and bMW ).
Solution is to just go for KTM 2 strokes. No cams, no problems.
Will be interested in the conclusion here, great and explanatory video 👍
It's the oil people, you need a high zinc content mineral grade motor oil on those cams to make them live, Roland, HT Racing Ltd
Stop talking rubbish
@@dirtygarageguy A fool and his big mouth
@@rotax636nut5No you don't. Other engines don't need that.
Based on what i saw my bet is its mostly oiling issue and 99% of that damage happens when idling.
oil jets don't spray oil far enough to touch lobes and very soon u got metal on metal.
When riding and oil hot should be fine
Discoloration on lobes seems to suggest that too
It's 100% is a oiling issue, KTM have confirmed this to dealers
@@Angry-Lynxdiscoloration happens when friction increases... so whatever is happening to create the wear is increasing friction. I'm not saying its not lubrication, im just saying the discoloration is related to heat caused by friction.
Oil sprays on the cams even when just cranking my engine. Where did you do your testing?
@@brianbrannon it's one dude on the adv rider forum not me, I'm just spreading awareness so less people buy this crap and waste ton of money
Guys over at total seal piston rings, lake speed jr has gone over what causes cam wipe and it's usually what oil that is being used /oil failure. And a quick google on ktm owners and the people getting life out of that engine are changing oil frequently or using additive. It's almost like the protective properties of the oil are seprating out or breaking down over time not miles or hydrocarbon exposure. The standard ktm is asking is the minimum requred for oil ma2=grippy clutch API SN, SM, SL. API SN. API SN has zero zinc and mororex has very little in other additives. If the bike was sitting 30-60 days the oil would go acidic and that damage would be almost expected with just an ester based also explains the oil weaping past seals.
Honda Vf chocolate cam revisited?
Same on my Husqvarna 701. Camshaft colored blue and rocker arm and finger followers have significant wear at 8600km
i heard about pressed on cam lobes in the newer EURO6 2.0TDI engines, also saw a few YT videos where the mechanics replaced the valves and other parts in the head after a timing belt snapped, only to find out that it was still out of time after the repair, because the lobes actually spun on the cams
Yep.....transit,boxer and jumper it can happen
Are all the years of 790 engines struggling with the same issues? I am looking at getting a 2024 and curious if they have silently corrected it yet?
Open valve clearence to 0.25mm on intake and 0.30-0.40mm because valves tighten up during first 1-5km causing valves to have too small clearence casuing oil film to be wiped from camshafts causing camshaft failures...
Best Regards!
I know you said to keep the ‘oil feeding issue’ to my self. But. I do have a theorie. The cams that are getting damaged like this are mainly the intake ones. Which are away from where the oil feeds up through the head. Now the oil pressure that this bike has is stupidly low. 1.4 bar at idle with coolant temp being 70C and 2.4 bar at 6000rpm with the coolant temp being 70C. This may just be a case of where the ‘normal’ oil pressure from factory is to low. That in combination with long oil change intervals of 15k km and the use of 10w50 (degrades rather quickly to a thinner viscosity than a smaller range oil) this making the oil thin, and getting the oil pressure even lower. Why however only 1 set of the intake cams is destroyed may be due to a small blokkage or something. Usually the ones that are destroyed are also the ones further away from the return so that may play a part in it aswell (pure speculation).
I have also heard from KTM that the oil jets on the first gen 790 (2018-2020) used loctite on those and from factory came with to much loctite. That loctite broke of and blocked the jet. That was their theory. However, the 890s and modern 790s have a filter in the return catching that and stopped using loctite with the jets so that theory is out of question.
Maybe the fix is installing a different oil pump spring (saw some posts of people using 990 superduke (old model, not new one) springs to boost up the pressure. I forgot what the exact pressure reading was. Or the fix is just using 15w50 so it doesn’t degrade as fast or even 15w60. That thicker oil we often used in the 690 because they had quite the issue with oil consumption and rattling can chain tensioners due to a lack of pressure. The 790/890 don’t have oil consumption problem but do have the can chain tensioner problem of it rattling (not just on startup). People think it’s a chain tensioner that’s faulty. Usually it’s just a case of new o-rings, pushing old oil out and using 15w60 oik instead.
Here is my theory. Love to get your ideas on this.
Interesting point to note .... 790 owners who swap out the stock cam chain tensioner for aftermarket ratcheting sprung tensioners or manual tensioners then often get oil leaks from the oil pressure sensor which lives on the back of the engine right above the CCT .... 🤔🤔
@@MotoGoatousing a manual one or one that just has a ratcheting mechanism that is poorly designed and blocks of or restricts the oil flow that is there by standard can indeed cause that leak.
"Low the oil pressure that this bike has is stupidly low. 1.4 bar at idle with coolant temp being 70C and 2.4 bar at 6000rpm with the coolant temp being 70C. "
- 20psi is low is it? Why? The H2R has the same pressure, seems to work fine. Pressure means very little without flow rate.
"that in combination with long oil change intervals of 15k km and the use of 10w50"
- This is just wrong.
"this making the oil thin, and getting the oil pressure even lower."
- Pressure is based on that oil, not against it.
"Why however only 1 set of the intake cams is destroyed may be due to a small blokkage or something."
- It's not one, it's all of them, just to different degrees.
"Or the fix is just using 15w50 so it doesn’t degrade as fast or even 15w60."
- 15k miles!
"rattling can chain tensioners due to a lack of pressure. "
- What? Cam chain's are feed presurised oil now?
@@dirtygarageguy
'pressure means very little without flow rate'
I agree, the pressure means nothing without the flow rate. The thing is however, the oil jets (size 50) are shared amongst the 1090, 1050, 1190 and 1290 versions. These bikes however run a lot more pressure around 2-2.2bar at idle. Obviously there are many more factors affecting flow rate but you get the point hopefully of it being low for a KTM.
And 15k oil intervals not being long? What? That is incredibly long. Especialy on an engine that pushes a lot of power for the engine size, weight, cilinder count etc etc. Your average honda or kawasaki engine cant compare at all. And even they barely push their intervals above 10k km. It is also a fact that wider range oils degrade faster and become thinner faster over time. Thats just how oil works. th-cam.com/video/aAQ7vj6STMA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3Jtu94inLKxyUnns&t=107
Also about the cams being destroyed, yes one set is worse than the others. They all have damage in varying degrees, but usually the intake valves at cilinder 1 get munched up the worst. The reason why the others get all destroyed is becuase of all the metal residu floating around (what seems the most logical in my head) as the oil jets start getting plugged up.
And yes, KTM's use hydraulic cam chaintensioners that use oil pressures to extent the tensioner against the chain guide. Yes they have a ratchet system inside it, but its only a couple of clicks to prevent engine when the engine is starting and cant build pressure. Ever noticed ktms rattle when starting up? thats why
I was reading your reply and I saw your mention of the 690 and oil consumption. I have a 2017 690 enduro r and it has consumed oil since new. It’s become a habit to check oil level before every ride and although it seems to have lessened once it hit 5500 miles it still persists. I’ve changed oil and filters every 3000 miles since purchasing the bike and add oil in between. It’s been very reliable and has 13,600 on it now. I’ve used Motorx 10w60 for every oil change. I’d like to learn what benefits you seen by using 15w60? Did the oil consumption decrease or stop completely? Did the engine run quieter or cooler? Thanks for your time.
What superb video, explanation and general work. You’re a clever guy. When you have a conclusion, you should make a public fuss because your talented and people should know.
my god, so much usless rambling.... got bored and annoyed faster than a camshaft starts spin on engine start...
What is your opinion about KTM (GasGas, Husqvarna, Raymon...) as a company and the quality of their bikes?
I worked for a KTM dealer and I personally think their bikes really are great riding machines as long as you don't own them. The problems I've experienced on those bikes are comically criminal. I can remember the clutch slave clyinder was a problem for years as the big rubber gasket could break and get leaky resulting in a non functioning clutch lever. Leaving you stranded at the worst possible moments. I once test rode a brand new bike that was getting sold and this happened. They had to pick me up with a van. They had so many problems from the start that I never experienced with Suzukis (same dealer was also a Suzuki dealer). This problem was eventually fixed around 2020-2021 when I can remember correctly when they finally came out with new cylinders with smaller gaskets for the 701 models.
They had faulty welds on the exhaust manifolds especially the Husqvarna 701 Supermotos. There were holes in there! Electrical problems that never went away. We had a customer who bought a brand new HQV 701 Vitpilen and in just a few months he had to visit us 5-6 times for electrical problems. We couldn't figure out what was wrong. The bike was picked up by KTM eventually and the whole electrcial system was replaced. As compensation he got a brand new rear tyre.... What a joke. We also had breaking rocker arms in 701 SM engines.
Do you know how many troubles we had with brand new Suzukis during the same time frame? 0. Zero!
From what I've seen and heard, I never want one. I could die happy without having one.
@@dirtygarageguy Same. Thanks for your answer. Didn't prove me wrong. lol
I had the old 950adv.and it was decent. Def the most fun bike I had. The best looking and sounding bike ever no doubt.
Worth owning I'd say maybe not necessarily long term or if u do a lot of KMs.
But I think it was first and last good bike/platform from this company.
I wouldn't touch anything newer than 1190 with 10m stick
Also,
#FUCKKTM
I own both KTM 690 Enduro R and KTM 890 Adventure. Spent some extra coins proactively fixing some of these problem. Cannot forget the countershaft leak on 690 Enduro R.
Also interesting how KTM hand builds and tests the engines that get handed to the Dakar Rally racing team members each year. I suspect they make sure the engines don't blow up during these highly visible events..
If this turns out to be an inadequate oil flow issue at idle, I am not sure how KTM will address tens of thousands of 790 / 890 already sold. They might as well cut all owners a check. Most dealers in my region can barely keep up with routine maintenance work ( Mid Atlantic region in USA ).
love how thorough you are, love these more than the dellboy critiques, but you do make me smile🙂 if i link back can i use some clips for a vid i am working on? cheersv i can link back to your channel or video,
When can we expect an update video?
This made me wonder about two things, both heat related. Cams used to be solid. With these hollow, pressed together cams, there is a lot less mass available to accept and dissipate heat. But lots of other brands use hollow cams without problems. The other best question is regarding oil. Besides lubrication, oil picks up heat from the metal parts it is running through and over. I wonder the way the oil flows through the head isn’t moving enough oil through it to act properly as a cooling medium.
The head is also water cooled, don't forget that
It's like fun health class with motorcycles. Lesson is pull out of Chinese squirter names Cam after you reach the shift stuff. Doesn't matter if you're stiff 75 year old! 😂😂 Actually its a great video.
Have you got an update ready to go yet?
Wild theory. The way they pin the cam lobes on result in poor heat transfer. When bike heats up, valve clearance becomes zero. Could be the ok cams are closer to cooling source.
KTM790/890
Nordon 901
Will the new 990ADV parallel twin be the same ? time will tell.
Matt, isnt it clearly a oiling issue? if it was bad harderning the cams shouldnt have heating discoloration right? (love to see this vids back)
So, let's say it's an oiling issue. What's the issue?
@@dirtygarageguy No idea, just trying to figure it out based on what i saw. Unless some passage gets clogged in every fucking bike for some reason, or bad design of the oiling sistem, uneven pressures...? who knows !
Interesting. Could be as simple as the heat used to assemble the cam has normalised, and killed, the heat treatment case hardening? The rockwell hardness test will show it. HArd part is getting a good sample of un-destroyed cams to test and collect data to show it/prove it.
Awesome video. Love your work! At last, we can see and discuss possible real causes for this problem. I will for follow with interest
I presume the magnetic oil drain bolt would be covered in metal shavings as this problem developed! Are there other tell tale signs?
You can report about my engine concept. It is practically a type of 5-stroke engine with no dead space channels and no after-cycle
I hope KTM doesn't go all Boeing on you
How many miles were on the KTM camshaft shown? Not sure if I missed it if you mentioned it. Thanks and great video
14k
Yes. Love Failure Analysis videos.
Famous Austrian Cheese
You are absolotly right about getting more data. Hopefully you get more examples, fotos etc. 👍
Looking forward to more videos 😀
I have a work mate (mechanic) who has pulled a piece of tapping swarf out of an oil feed squirter. Was in the head on a completely different motorcycle though.
Love the workbench FA videos, can’t wait to see the result
KTM is having major money problems , they dont give a shit about all this right now, then sales suck and the whole thing comes crashing down. DO NOT BUY ONE !!!
Dirty Garage Guy, sponsored by: Royal Enfield, Harley Davidson, Murican OHV V8 and sugar free Red Bull.
Are you mocking Sgt. Armchair Expert?
@@embardio.londias pushrods like in Rye's Honda.
Been two London twice. Redbull comes with the breast-milk in that part of the world
Katastrophic
Terminal
Motors
Matt why they dont put bearings on camshafts like on the crank? Not enough load to need them?
Exactly. 1. Aluminium is a good bearing material if adequately lubricated. 2. The journals do wear out, but usually the life of the engine. 3. It's lighter and cheaper.
@@dirtygarageguy Ok, thank you!
Certainly looking forward to part two .., thank you Sir for delving into this awful mess from KTM
No options ok Matt.
But, my 04 ktm 950 had the same problem.
Apparently 04/05 's had a bad batch of cams. Manufactured in the 4th quarter production run and shipped to the east coast. Fix... $ 800 and six months wait from megacycle cams, i got the 1st one. Its now somewhere in northern California.
Signed ;
Grumpy old punkrocker.
Tucson USA.
"No options ok Matt."
- I'm just saying for people to not flood the comments with blind guesses.
On another note this is one of the issues. When people say 'apparently' which doesn't anyone. I'm not blaming you here, hope you get my drift.
"Apparently 04/05 's had a bad batch of cams."
@@dirtygarageguy
Sorry Matt, I ment opinions.
And as for the apparently,
There were bad cams produced, from my contacts with people on the adv bike/ KTM 950 forum it was hit or miss weather you got a bad cam or not. At the time of my research I could only track it down to this production run and when I inquired with ktm about a recall and replacement. Nothing, just crickets.
@@tonydiridoni5829The 950 problem was totally different. One of my cams was pitted. There was great discussion about this at the time, but I left it in, and the bike went on to do over 120k miles before I put her into retirement.
I found out my exhaust camshaft lobe wore down because I didn't have any power after 8500rpm. I had the exhaust left lobe on cylinder 1 distroyed because of a blocked oil jet. Removed the jet (which is 0.5mm in diameter) and found a non metalic piece blocking the hole. It was something like a piece of an o'ring or gasket maker about the size of a sand grain. My duke is the 1st gen 2018, before KTM decided to put the filter on the cylinder head in 2nd gen hmmm, also the new cam followers for 890's are wider, just saying.
My dealer said the same - cam failure on a 790 and another 1290 due to a blocked oilway or jet. They thought it was Loctite.
You can see how it's discolored from the heat where it's worn out. Either it was running dry or something had failed and put it under so much pressure that it wiped the oil clean off and cooked the cam. That's my two cents 😁
@@mariusb2405 by how amd why? Your comment is as useful as a chocolate thermometer. Everyone with eyes can see that...
@@dirtygarageguy I can't tell more from a dissasembled head, but sorry for commenting I guess
My guess is the oil is just flowing where it finds it easiest routes. If the outlets aren't balanced, ie the ease of flow to each outlet is the same, it will gush out some and leave others underfed. I'd test it at 5/10/15 psi not 20/25 where it'll come out everywhere.
"I have never seen cams this bad" check out classic Norton Comanndos!
50/50 mix of oil and tuff black will make any engine run forever !
All that and it's just an oil flow issue! What if KTM intentionally designed it this way, but in their testing all the bikes last 40-50k mi... they figure a lot of those engines wouldn't see that mileage for years, and it would hardly be the scandal it is. But at 15-16k mi, it happens too soon!! I propose that it was an intentional design failure, but unexpectedly more effective in failing than expected.
thanks...I've subscribed and look forward to the next episode.
I think the problem lies with the cam lobes not being heat treated deep enough. It appears that they have failed due to the hardened surface being softer than the other lobes and thats worn off exposing the softer steel bellow. Kinda like the old Polaris engines that had a similar problem but it was a mixture of oil supply pressure and crap cams
Here's oiling issue too guy posted on advrider forum video how oil jets don't reach lobes when cranking
Wheelie bikes can have some oil feed problems. Like the Honda grom. No oil to oilpump when wheelie.
Honda V45/V65 Sabre and Magna owners, first gen Intercepter owners are all pointing at the screen going "I remember this!"
It's CALLED CHEEP CHINESE STEEL, 🤷👎🥱
I cleaned the bench 😢
I had to replace the cams in my 2020 790 adv at 30,000km. who knows how long these ones will last. Love riding the bike but not sure I will keep it long enough to find out.
Thanks for you video. It,s good for owner ktm 790/890.
#readytorace #readytoreplace
Waiting for next part. Great job.
Where can I send you my pics?
I cant believe that there isnt any bearings...seems sub standard to what the automotive industry does.
What?
@@dirtygarageguy there isn't any bearings between the steel cam shafts and aluminum block/cover.
@HardNorthOutdoors I know, this is normal, even in the automotive world...
@@dirtygarageguy well I don't know how the euro cars are build but in North America and most of the world, a steel moving part in an aluminum engine will have a bearing. That's a fact I'll bet money on.
@HardNorthOutdoors tell me how much you wanna bet, because you're wrong.
Thanks for the explainations. For me same problem for the same cams (intake at the end of the shaft)
That was a really interesting video - I am really looking forward to this series. I have a nuked MT07 engine in bits. If you want anything from it to compare or chop up. I would be more than happy to give you any bits that you wanted.
Will be interested to see your findings
Why is that some gears feel like they're ready to be throttled and made to go wheeee and others don't? Is that just in my head? I sometimes wonder if l'm babying the inline-4s l've had.
Pity we can't see what the state of the valves/tappet surfaces are in. Could be they are contributing to excess wear on cam lobes.
I’ve got an engine that’s blown a valve stem into the piston and spark plug , just had valve service 250 miles before it blew , lobes shown to have pitting , 19 k , same as shown
For me KTM have outsourced their cam manufacturing and case hardening processes, I think oil supply is a bit on a non issue in this case.
Their manufacturer has used cheaper materials at the bottom end of KTMs spec range, lower carbon content steel and bare minimum hardening to save a few quid.
790 engine is made in China so that's not surprising
@@kugangles9860 same with the 900 engine from BMW
My 2019 790R has 12 thousand miles on it, I wonder if an oil analysis will show this excessive cam wear? Just a thought.
Matt. Any opinion about the actual profile of the cams? They are not exactly conventional. Could it be that due to ramp design the surface speed/acceleration/loading between cam and follower is far greater than a conventional cam profile? If that was the case any weakness in lubrication or surface hardness would show up pretty quickly. Perhaps KTM should have adopted a roller follower like on the 690 but cheaped out? All if, buts and maybes I know BUT (another one) if it was just about lube and hardness then surely this would have been fixed long ago.
Does this apply to the 890?
Yes, just met a guy at the KTM dealership two weeks ago when i was there to replace a tyre on my Africa Twin, poor fella had to replace his cam shaft at 5000 miles on a 890 duke, meanwhile my 2020 Africa twin has 60k miles and running like new.
@fs5866 actually I was meant to write the NEW 890 but yeah still absolutely horrible experience people are having. Very very poor by KTM
Is there corresponding wear to the followers / tappets or whatever KTM use?
In the Facebook group for this issue: Yes, many have had excessive wear on their followers.
Ive sold a few track bikes that had done 'no miles' as you put it
Has anyone checked to see if the CFmoto production line has been using leftover tofu-dreg, instead of wax, in casting the galleries?
Looks a lot like 1980s Honda VF cam failure. That was, AIUI, eventually put down to poor oiling at low RPM, and dodgy cam face hardening. Low speed oiling /might/ an issue for an off road bike which isn't gonna have the tits thrashed off it.
5:10 Ya Mrs running her mouth again?
sound in the background around the 18th minute? pigs?
I have a KTM 990 ADV but would have considered upgrading to a 790 but for this issue, a fair bit of time in this vid was devoted to the oiling system for the journals but are they an issue? Or is it just the cam lobes that fail? Or does one possibly lead to the other? Failures of cam journals in heads were common on bikes like the GB500/XL500 and derivatives and with a known root cause, unlikely to be the case here but you never know (tip don’t assume the oil pressure is always present at the head, especially at cold start up).
Considering all issues (And camshafts are just tip.of the iceberg) 790 would definitely be downgrade from 990...
Don't do it.
Man, this is great - really interesting. Proper Cluedo his - subscribed! I am hoping there is a solution otherwise I might have to swap to a Kwakazaki :D
keep yer nickers on, we`ll get to it
Lobes are friction welded I believe
Looking forward to this investigation. Need a few followers to examine - are they wearing too?
Use a 'high zinc content' mineral oil such as Millers Classic or various grades of Valvoline 10W40 or 20W50 designed for 'flat or sliding contact cam tappets/followers' and you won't get this common problem again. Roland, HT Racing Ltd
No it's not. Stop talking shite.
@@dirtygarageguy Nice!
so my 40 years in the race engine development and building industry means nothing then, shows what kind of guy you are dirty. Roland Hayes, HT Racing Ltd
Correct. It means nothing. I'll prove it. What exact oil was being used in this example?
Hardening and tempering issue
Krapp They Make = KTM 😂😂
I guess not so much cheese cams as Chinesium assembly quality control.
Why are they not offering you the old oil feeds and followers? They can't be reusing them?
Less mass and more heat?
KTM known to be like a hand grenade with the pin out, with a warranty of one week or the end of the street whichever comes first. Some models I believe are quite reliable but don't know which ones.
The old LC8 from 950/990 were decent if they didn't grenade in first 10k or something 😂
So we got backwards progress with KTM.
Would defo trust old 950 engine more than new 890
i would imagine their big engine is most reliable the 1290 since it is assembled in Austria and it is their flagship.