Well Done Jeffrey! I knew Microsoft had changed leadership! Microsoft has become Industry Leader with so many Robust products, Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, Dynamics AX and now Nano Server What a wonderful time to be in :)
Jeffrey really suffered a big deal in Microsoft ... hope everything goes well for Nano server, certainly their competition is ahead of them in the OS Server industry
It’s funny that Snover thinks that re-doing the pipeline was an epiphany. Even as far back as Unix Haters Handbook, there was recognition of the flaws of text pipeline. That’s why using pure shell without a programming language (awk, Perl, python) is almost impossible for any nontrivial task. Powershell has a predecessor. Ipython is a shell adaptation of python that was created around 2001.
BS! MS had no hand in inventing the IBM PC. They didn't even write MS DOS/PC DOS. They bought it from another company. The thing about PowerShell is that it is not lightweight by any stretch of the imagination. Nor as fast as Linux. With Unix/Linux you can add a function to your server/computer with apt, yum, etc., and it is one thing that does it well. Small, fast, stable. Typical Unix philosophy, With PowerShell when you add a Module, it's a boatload of commands and anything but lightweight. Not to mention the backend required to handle all of the objects is big and bloated. Meaning Linux VHD's can be even smaller and faster to deploy than Windows servers, even nano. That doesn't mean that it's not any good. I like PowerShell on Windows. It sure beats .BAT scripting. PowerShell has its advantages, even if it's mostly restricted to Windows. Most of my PowerShell scripts won't run on Linux or the Mac despite them having the ability to install PowerShell. Not even with a few tweaks or a whole boatload of tweaks. I did manage to get one script to mostly work, but it took a major rewrite. With Bash, I can port my scripts between Linux, Mac, and WSL with very few tweaks.
A PowerShell module doesn't have to bundle a bunch of different commands, it could be as simple as a folder with 1 .psm1 file that contains 1 function definition. Additionally, you can create parameterized scripts that can be called the same way you would any other command. For example someone has published a script called "Get-WindowsAutoPilotInfo". I can install that like this: "Install-Script Get-WindowsAutoPilotInfo" and then call it by just the script name. You are right about the size, the self contained version of PowerShell (the one that also includes .NET) is 270MB which is quite big. Luckily storage is so cheap and fast these days that it's not a big deal if it provides good value (which I think it does). As for the cross platform compatibility, Bash and PowerShell are just shells that execute commands so it's silly to compare them like that. Any "cross platform" script you write in bash that calls "ls", "grep", "awk", etc. could just as easily have been written in PowerShell and achieved the same level of cross platform support. It's all about the commands that are available on the underlying platform and because of the fundamental design differences with Windows and *nix you naturally can't expect the same commands to be available on both platforms. You saying that the bash scripts you write using *nix tools that are available on Linux, Mac OS X (A unix OS) and a Windows VM running Linux is not particularly impressive when framed like this, is it?
@@noobtuber26 Since I wrote this, I’ve come to really like Powershell and discovered modules. I really like their flexibility and have written several already. I still stand by what I said about its size and it’s not particularly fast compared to Bash, Ksh, Zsh, etc… No running a Linux vm under windows is not particularly impressive and does nothing to make the systems more uniform. However Powershell does in sorts. There are still the areas where the systems differ and therefore many commands available under Windows are not there under Linux.
Powershell is just extended commands of DOS batch. It is silly to write scripts in powershell. Powershell and DOS syntax are very dirty & messy. Scripting like Bash, Python, or Ruby are far more structured, cleaner and powerful. Only stupid and jerk people will get impressed with powershell. IronPython & IronRuby are far better choices for Windows scripting. Microsoft is too hypocrite to revamp the DOS batch commands as Powershell. They are abandoning IronPython & IronRuby efforts just for the sake of making old DOS syntax to look slightly better in managing Windows server. Very stupid people.
Michael Smith you do understand the whole point of powershell, right? You are passing objects instead of text. As awesome as bash is, it's design, along with other text based shells, is flawed from the get go.
I now think that you were fooled by the fact that they allow some trivial aliases to work for beginners into thinking that there is even the remotest of relationships between DOS prompt syntax, commands or anything and PowerShell. If you had said "PowerShell is just TCL" you would still be quite wrong, but a little less wrong. At least read the monad manifesto if you are going to comment on the PowerShell approach to scripting.
@@itmeurdad I understand the design. The whole point of text based shells is to glue together mini programs. Since you can’t have a shared type system amongst random utilities, text is a convenient lowest denominator. With Powershell, you can still call external programs and pass around their sdout. But it also lets you share the common .net type system. In the Unix world, people in the know have been using scripting languages instead of text based shells since the 80s. Powershell isn’t really a great discovery. You can still scrape the text output of PING in Python or Perl.
Well Done Jeffrey!
I knew Microsoft had changed leadership!
Microsoft has become Industry Leader with so many Robust products,
Exchange, Skype for Business, SharePoint, Dynamics AX and now Nano Server
What a wonderful time to be in :)
Nice talk Jeff learnt some physics and history at the same time as knowing about getting Windows out of Windows
Jeffrey really suffered a big deal in Microsoft ... hope everything goes well for Nano server, certainly their competition is ahead of them in the OS Server industry
Inspirational Jeff love your ideas man
"GUI is not going to work" Wow, many of us were already there with you for a long time!
It’s funny that Snover thinks that re-doing the pipeline was an epiphany. Even as far back as Unix Haters Handbook, there was recognition of the flaws of text pipeline.
That’s why using pure shell without a programming language (awk, Perl, python) is almost impossible for any nontrivial task.
Powershell has a predecessor. Ipython is a shell adaptation of python that was created around 2001.
Well, Server 2012 CORE was something to be proud of....
Jeffrey, what were your favorite sessions from this year?
I like the sound of "Distinguished Engineer"
These guys are paid $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
BS! MS had no hand in inventing the IBM PC. They didn't even write MS DOS/PC DOS. They bought it from another company.
The thing about PowerShell is that it is not lightweight by any stretch of the imagination. Nor as fast as Linux. With Unix/Linux you can add a function to your server/computer with apt, yum, etc., and it is one thing that does it well. Small, fast, stable. Typical Unix philosophy, With PowerShell when you add a Module, it's a boatload of commands and anything but lightweight. Not to mention the backend required to handle all of the objects is big and bloated. Meaning Linux VHD's can be even smaller and faster to deploy than Windows servers, even nano. That doesn't mean that it's not any good. I like PowerShell on Windows. It sure beats .BAT scripting. PowerShell has its advantages, even if it's mostly restricted to Windows. Most of my PowerShell scripts won't run on Linux or the Mac despite them having the ability to install PowerShell. Not even with a few tweaks or a whole boatload of tweaks. I did manage to get one script to mostly work, but it took a major rewrite. With Bash, I can port my scripts between Linux, Mac, and WSL with very few tweaks.
A PowerShell module doesn't have to bundle a bunch of different commands, it could be as simple as a folder with 1 .psm1 file that contains 1 function definition. Additionally, you can create parameterized scripts that can be called the same way you would any other command. For example someone has published a script called "Get-WindowsAutoPilotInfo". I can install that like this: "Install-Script Get-WindowsAutoPilotInfo" and then call it by just the script name.
You are right about the size, the self contained version of PowerShell (the one that also includes .NET) is 270MB which is quite big. Luckily storage is so cheap and fast these days that it's not a big deal if it provides good value (which I think it does).
As for the cross platform compatibility, Bash and PowerShell are just shells that execute commands so it's silly to compare them like that. Any "cross platform" script you write in bash that calls "ls", "grep", "awk", etc. could just as easily have been written in PowerShell and achieved the same level of cross platform support. It's all about the commands that are available on the underlying platform and because of the fundamental design differences with Windows and *nix you naturally can't expect the same commands to be available on both platforms.
You saying that the bash scripts you write using *nix tools that are available on Linux, Mac OS X (A unix OS) and a Windows VM running Linux is not particularly impressive when framed like this, is it?
@@noobtuber26
Since I wrote this, I’ve come to really like Powershell and discovered modules. I really like their flexibility and have written several already.
I still stand by what I said about its size and it’s not particularly fast compared to Bash, Ksh, Zsh, etc…
No running a Linux vm under windows is not particularly impressive and does nothing to make the systems more uniform. However Powershell does in sorts. There are still the areas where the systems differ and therefore many commands available under Windows are not there under Linux.
Powershell is just extended commands of DOS batch. It is silly to write scripts in powershell. Powershell and DOS syntax are very dirty & messy. Scripting like Bash, Python, or Ruby are far more structured, cleaner and powerful. Only stupid and jerk people will get impressed with powershell. IronPython & IronRuby are far better choices for Windows scripting.
Microsoft is too hypocrite to revamp the DOS batch commands as Powershell. They are abandoning IronPython & IronRuby efforts just for the sake of making old DOS syntax to look slightly better in managing Windows server. Very stupid people.
Please actually learn Powershell and then get back to us.
Michael Smith you do understand the whole point of powershell, right? You are passing objects instead of text. As awesome as bash is, it's design, along with other text based shells, is flawed from the get go.
I now think that you were fooled by the fact that they allow some trivial aliases to work for beginners into thinking that there is even the remotest of relationships between DOS prompt syntax, commands or anything and PowerShell. If you had said "PowerShell is just TCL" you would still be quite wrong, but a little less wrong. At least read the monad manifesto if you are going to comment on the PowerShell approach to scripting.
@@gareginasatryan6761 just because you don't understand the design philosophy doesn't make it a flaw (see your own point)
@@itmeurdad I understand the design. The whole point of text based shells is to glue together mini programs. Since you can’t have a shared type system amongst random utilities, text is a convenient lowest denominator.
With Powershell, you can still call external programs and pass around their sdout. But it also lets you share the common .net type system.
In the Unix world, people in the know have been using scripting languages instead of text based shells since the 80s. Powershell isn’t really a great discovery. You can still scrape the text output of PING in Python or Perl.