First and foremost, sorry for the nitpicking I'm about to make about the size of the ko threat. In general, a threat only has to be worth two thirds of the total value of the ko. It is a rule of thumb and is not exact at all (among other things, it depends on the size of the next biggest move). The reasoning is debatable but quite simple : there is a 3-move difference between the position where you win the ko and the one where you lose it (to see it, imagine the position where the ko is not over yet : one player can finish the ko in one move, the other needs 2 moves to do it). So while your opponent spends 3 moves total to win the ko, you need to play 3 moves with the same value (your threat + its execution + one last move). I understand all this is very theoretical and difficult to grasp, but it can be a good rule of thumb in these ko battles.
@@GoMagic Anecdotally, I consider myself a beginner still, and found this comment interesting and insightful. I have some experience with other tactical games and so I am familiar with the opportunity cost of spending a move to gain something, I just hadn't thought to count the moves in this situation and appreciate the insight. Anyways, really good video, and I'm sure keeping the lesson in mind will improve my game :)
I noticed you mention how some of the other commentors' points about ko threats are too complicated; however, I still disagree that a ko threat MUST be bigger than the value of winning the ko. Imagine a ko worth 10 points. You assess your opponent's ko threats, and he currently plays one worth 5 points. However, his remaining ones are worth even less, only 2 or 3 points. On the other hand, you have multiple ko threats worth 20 points. It's a bad idea to ignore your opponent's ko threat since you still have many more than your opponent. But more importantly, on the flip side, there's no reason to not play a ko threat even if it's smaller than the value of the ko, if that's your only threat. I think it would be more accurate to say to try to play a ko threat bigger than the ko, but if there isn't any just play the biggest you can find.
Thank you for taking the time to point that out. I agree. We might have been more precise at explining ko-threats. However I do believe there are many layers of finesse in Go and it's hard to know which layer one must dive to for each individual student. =)
Actually, the correct order of Ko threads is usually starting with the smallest thread which is larger than the value of the Ko, because you may need the larger threads later. Of course, that's probably too much for a beginner to track. Still, the better advice is probably just to say 'find a thread bigger than the value of the Ko' instead of 'start with the biggest thread first'.
@@haoquanliu1078 Why should that be simpler? You need to be able to compare the size of threads either way. Besides, he already mentions that you need to find a bigger thread than the value of the Ko. He only could leave out the part where he says it has to be 'the biggest'.
@@bitti1975 Comparing near-valued ko threats is impossible for beginners. A double digit kyu would fail miserably. He knows the best way to play but he doesn't think a DDK should play to that optimal level. Evaluating the value of a Ko threat is one of the hardest subject in go so he is not even that good at it necessarily.
@@haoquanliu1078 Right, but what's your point? If it's that, he or she should find the biggest thread first it doesn't make sense, because the difference between the biggest threads may also be 'near-valued'. I'd even argue it's harder for beginners to find all possible threads to determine the biggest instead of just one thread which seems bigger than the Ko.
the go game's goal is having more points than your opponent, so the go-threat is not always bigger than lost the ko, because your whole situation might led, only win the ko can't help your opponent win the whole game. In that time the ko-threat might smaller than the ko, because your opponent can't bear a little bit loss.( win the ko but bear a little loss can't help he win)
I would think a there are a three of missed opportunities/explanations here. #1. "Threat" (or robbing/mugging) is probably the true meaning of the word ko, unlike that fanciful buddhist "forever" association. Meaning that it is not named after what ko rules prevent -- repetition -- but after how they are won, with superior threats. #2. I think the rule of thumb here you should mention, is that the time to start a ko is when you are able to judge that you have more effective threats than your opponent to use, in order to win the ko. Finally #3. Aji. This is an excellent place to mention the importance of investing and preserving aji on the board, as a closely related topic.
From your website... "Please note: Opting out of data collection will result in the deletion of your account. This action is necessary to ensure we fully respect your privacy preferences." Yikes thats a pass from me dawg
That policy is there to ensure that if someone opts out, their data is completely removed, including their account. But hey, your privacy and comfort are what matter most.
@GoMagic if im not mistaken there exist websites where you may opt out of data collection - to various extents, even- without your account being deleted. This is intentional. No matter. Best of luck, appreciate the videos as well as the reply.
I've been learning go for about a week and having a lot of fun... I will say I find it much harder dealing with ko on a 9x9 board. Since there's nowhere else to fight I often end up just fighting ko head on against the ai... I started getting frustrated having all my games just be ko dogfights so I've started playing on 13x13 so I can play other parts of the board
Just discovered y'all's channel 2 days ago. You guys are awesome 🤘 thanks ❤️
Thanks a lot!
Very interesting video and well explain like always. When you start to think about the game like this, the fun begins. It takes practice 😅
Very true! Most elements of Go require some practice for them to get crystallized =)
Another instructive lesson. Thank you so much! Спасибо!
🤘
good explanation, it was a bit tough to understand ko threats and the video really helped
There is an entire course on playing ko that is probably coming this year. More advanced stuff of course =)
Love this so much
Woooohoooo!
First and foremost, sorry for the nitpicking I'm about to make about the size of the ko threat. In general, a threat only has to be worth two thirds of the total value of the ko. It is a rule of thumb and is not exact at all (among other things, it depends on the size of the next biggest move). The reasoning is debatable but quite simple : there is a 3-move difference between the position where you win the ko and the one where you lose it (to see it, imagine the position where the ko is not over yet : one player can finish the ko in one move, the other needs 2 moves to do it). So while your opponent spends 3 moves total to win the ko, you need to play 3 moves with the same value (your threat + its execution + one last move). I understand all this is very theoretical and difficult to grasp, but it can be a good rule of thumb in these ko battles.
Wouldn't you be afraid that a Go beginner having heard this is going to run away very far? =)
@@GoMagic They would. And your video is perfect for beginners. I made this comment in case somebody stronger starts to wonder. Thanks for your work.
@@GoMagic Anecdotally, I consider myself a beginner still, and found this comment interesting and insightful. I have some experience with other tactical games and so I am familiar with the opportunity cost of spending a move to gain something, I just hadn't thought to count the moves in this situation and appreciate the insight. Anyways, really good video, and I'm sure keeping the lesson in mind will improve my game :)
Awesome! However we tried to make it clear even to those with no prior board game experience 😇
I noticed you mention how some of the other commentors' points about ko threats are too complicated; however, I still disagree that a ko threat MUST be bigger than the value of winning the ko.
Imagine a ko worth 10 points. You assess your opponent's ko threats, and he currently plays one worth 5 points. However, his remaining ones are worth even less, only 2 or 3 points. On the other hand, you have multiple ko threats worth 20 points. It's a bad idea to ignore your opponent's ko threat since you still have many more than your opponent. But more importantly, on the flip side, there's no reason to not play a ko threat even if it's smaller than the value of the ko, if that's your only threat.
I think it would be more accurate to say to try to play a ko threat bigger than the ko, but if there isn't any just play the biggest you can find.
Thank you for taking the time to point that out. I agree.
We might have been more precise at explining ko-threats.
However I do believe there are many layers of finesse in Go and it's hard to know which layer one must dive to for each individual student. =)
Actually, the correct order of Ko threads is usually starting with the smallest thread which is larger than the value of the Ko, because you may need the larger threads later. Of course, that's probably too much for a beginner to track. Still, the better advice is probably just to say 'find a thread bigger than the value of the Ko' instead of 'start with the biggest thread first'.
Too complicated for beginners to understand that so he just says play the biggest one.
@@haoquanliu1078 Why should that be simpler? You need to be able to compare the size of threads either way. Besides, he already mentions that you need to find a bigger thread than the value of the Ko. He only could leave out the part where he says it has to be 'the biggest'.
@@bitti1975 Comparing near-valued ko threats is impossible for beginners. A double digit kyu would fail miserably. He knows the best way to play but he doesn't think a DDK should play to that optimal level. Evaluating the value of a Ko threat is one of the hardest subject in go so he is not even that good at it necessarily.
@@haoquanliu1078 Right, but what's your point? If it's that, he or she should find the biggest thread first it doesn't make sense, because the difference between the biggest threads may also be 'near-valued'. I'd even argue it's harder for beginners to find all possible threads to determine the biggest instead of just one thread which seems bigger than the Ko.
Might be correct but not the kind of thing that's easy enough to grasp and implement sadly =)
Nice video.
Thank you!
the go game's goal is having more points than your opponent, so the go-threat is not always bigger than lost the ko, because your whole situation might led, only win the ko can't help your opponent win the whole game. In that time the ko-threat might smaller than the ko, because your opponent can't bear a little bit loss.( win the ko but bear a little loss can't help he win)
True, but we tried to show a simplified picture this time =)
I would think a there are a three of missed opportunities/explanations here. #1. "Threat" (or robbing/mugging) is probably the true meaning of the word ko, unlike that fanciful buddhist "forever" association. Meaning that it is not named after what ko rules prevent -- repetition -- but after how they are won, with superior threats. #2. I think the rule of thumb here you should mention, is that the time to start a ko is when you are able to judge that you have more effective threats than your opponent to use, in order to win the ko. Finally #3. Aji. This is an excellent place to mention the importance of investing and preserving aji on the board, as a closely related topic.
I think you might be forgetting that this lesson is intended for 25 kyu players =)
From your website... "Please note: Opting out of data collection will result in the deletion of your account. This action is necessary to ensure we fully respect your privacy preferences." Yikes thats a pass from me dawg
That policy is there to ensure that if someone opts out, their data is completely removed, including their account. But hey, your privacy and comfort are what matter most.
@GoMagic if im not mistaken there exist websites where you may opt out of data collection - to various extents, even- without your account being deleted.
This is intentional. No matter. Best of luck, appreciate the videos as well as the reply.
Threat. Not thread
🤘
I've been learning go for about a week and having a lot of fun... I will say I find it much harder dealing with ko on a 9x9 board. Since there's nowhere else to fight I often end up just fighting ko head on against the ai... I started getting frustrated having all my games just be ko dogfights so I've started playing on 13x13 so I can play other parts of the board
It's a separate skill in itself to see that a ko could happen and avoid it =)