Listen carefully to the following temperaments: Equal, Just Major, Just Minor, Pythagorean, Kirnberger I, Kirnberger II, Kirnberger III , Meantone, Werckmeister, Arabic. Comment which is your favorite
Equal Temperament: As usual, sounds not bad, but lacking the sparkle of some other temperaments. Just Major: Many notes sound WAY off, as if the wrong base scale was chosen for the key signature of the piece. Just Minor: Surprisingly better than Just Major, although with a few somewhat off notes. Pythagorean: A bit edgy -- not surprising since the limitation to powers of 2 and 3 forces some intervals to pretty high powers. Kirnberger I - III: Pretty well consonant, with overall consonance improving from I - III, but getting a bit duller in III -- sweet spot seems to be II. Meantone (presumably quarter-comma): Very clear consonance of most notes, but with certain notes definitely off. Meantone really needs more than 12 notes per octave, but suspect that this would be much improved if the version with A flat were chosen instead of the usual G sharp. Werckmeister (which one? -- presumably III): About like Kirnberger II, but a bit brighter at the expense of having some notes sound slightly off. Arabic: Sounds way off, like Just Major although differing in detail. Might be improved if you had an instrument with enough notes per octave to actually use all of the notes so that you aren't forced into wrong notes, since Arabic has well over 12 notes per octave. Edit: I wonder how much the above would change if you did this on an acoustic piano, on which the resonance of nearby strings would have a significant effect (especially in the top of the range that never gets damped). Although I understand that the sheer chore of returning an acoustic piano this many times would be an enormous deterrent.
Good summary ;) And yes, Arabic sould be played with some highlighted notice, that it is just illustrational as it really cannot be played like this on a standard piano keyboard :D
@wrentubes1886 You can blame Chopin for that. He liked to write music in keys with lots of accidentals, which are specifically the keys meantone can't play when tuned around the standard base key. But of course, Chopin wasn't writing for meantone instruments. In his time, tunings were well tempered, and so the "exotic" keys were playable, but still had a lot of tension compared to the modern equal temperament, which I suppose he liked.
0:41 this is labeled as being tuned to Just Major, but you don't state for which key. You're playing a song in E-flat major, but I am skeptical that the piano is set to E-flat major tuning. I would expect Just tuning for the key to sound _more_ in tune than Equal temperament, not less. Unless this nocturne has a lot of chromatic chords and notes?
My piano currently is tuned to Werckmeister III, and I truly liked it the most out of these examples. Kirnberger III I find also good, but it sounds a bit too "harsh" to my ears in G major, as you were playing. One very nasty thing about temperament is, that I can't listen anymore to equal tuning once I've got addicted to temperament. So, 99,94% of all recorded piano music has almost become a "no go" to me ...😰
It is easier to decide when you play only older music especially from pre-Bach era. However moving to the more modern music or combining more genres makes it more complicated ;) I have done some experiment with Just/Kirnberger/Werckmeister over the weekend and while trying some jazz I ended up laughing under the piano :D Strange experience ;)
This was really wonderful. I do wish I knew what tonic you were using for each of the tunings (and the key of the piece). For example, if the Just Major temperament uses E as the tonic, but the piece is in A, that is very different than if both the tuning and the piece are in D.
😃Composers were acutely aware of the subtle nuances imparted by different temperaments, and they often tailored their works to exploit these nuances. For instance, Johann Sebastian Bach, a towering figure of the Baroque era, composed his Well-Tempered Clavier in such a way that it could be played in all 24 major and minor keys without encountering any harsh dissonances. This was a remarkable feat, given the limitations of the unequal temperaments in use at the time.
Many thanks. It's amazing how much out of tune to me most of these temperaments. Only kirnberger iii and Werkmeister sounded good, although equal temperament sounds alright but I never really liked it. Pythagorean and some other temperaments started sounding right at first, but soon sounded out of tune.
Interesting how while the harmony sounds terrible in most temperaments, the differences in the melody are barely noticeable. Kirnberger 3 actually sounded best, better than 12TET.
Just intonation is my favorite (it is not a temperament though) it's the, theorically and mathematically, best way to play music but practically it doesn't work with lot of chords progressions. For sure it doesn't work here, especially what you call "just major" (is that the name of a tuning preset on this piano?). I don't understand why there is a "just major" and a "just minor" on the first place.
@@music_omar Yeah that's what I thought, don't understand why they have made two different Just-Intonation presets for major and minor though. Maybe to be able to use more notes from JI theory (the possibilities of notes in JI is infinite) that fits either a major or a minor song. But it would make the usage of the 12 keys totally different (notes like thirds or sixths would not be in the same place than usual, etc.)
@@music_omar I have a Roland too but seldom use the onboard sound 'cause I find the SuperNatural too harsh. I don't know if you're familiar with the SFZ format, but virtual instruments on that format would make it a snap to try all sorts of different tunings.
The problem with keyboards like this is they don’t show the full potential, since there is no sympathetic resonance. The resonance is enhanced and more prominent in some keys with an unequal tuning. This is partly why ET is so useless.
If you have an electronic piano which offers the feature of different temperaments, then you simply need to find the switch that activates the temperament you want to select. My piano is not an electronic but a transacoustic one (Yamaha YUS 5 TA2). That means on one hand it is a very normal (high-end) piano, but on the other hand I can switch it over to digital while playing through its soundboard. (So there's always wood that vibrates - no speakers.) In the transacoustic mode, I have a wide range of different historical temperaments to choose from. But, in fact, the normal part of the piano (which sounds most beautiful) I had let tune according to Werckmeister III. Soon I will have it changed to Bach-Lehmann as I want to explore the (presumed) temperament of "Das wohltemperierte Klavier". This means, though, engaging a professional piano-tuner who can tune my piano in that temperament. My beloved piano-tuner is working with the computer program TuneLab. (Otherwise it'd just take hours to tune the piano precisely accoring to a certain temperament. Thanks to that program he's usually done in 3/4 of an hour.)
One of the worst unequal temperaments by far is Valotti and it’s cousin Young. Utterly useless for any music from any period. To be avoided AT ALL COSTS.
Just Major is horrible.. you tuned to the wrong key? Arabic just sounds bad. Dynamic tuning of melody to Pythagorean with justly tuned chords is best. Static tuning sounds dead. Piano is percussive not melodic.
Listen Nocturne op.9 No.2 | The best of CHOPIN
👉th-cam.com/video/lrt3QpZSR5U/w-d-xo.html
Equal Temperament: As usual, sounds not bad, but lacking the sparkle of some other temperaments.
Just Major: Many notes sound WAY off, as if the wrong base scale was chosen for the key signature of the piece.
Just Minor: Surprisingly better than Just Major, although with a few somewhat off notes.
Pythagorean: A bit edgy -- not surprising since the limitation to powers of 2 and 3 forces some intervals to pretty high powers.
Kirnberger I - III: Pretty well consonant, with overall consonance improving from I - III, but getting a bit duller in III -- sweet spot seems to be II.
Meantone (presumably quarter-comma): Very clear consonance of most notes, but with certain notes definitely off. Meantone really needs more than 12 notes per octave, but suspect that this would be much improved if the version with A flat were chosen instead of the usual G sharp.
Werckmeister (which one? -- presumably III): About like Kirnberger II, but a bit brighter at the expense of having some notes sound slightly off.
Arabic: Sounds way off, like Just Major although differing in detail. Might be improved if you had an instrument with enough notes per octave to actually use all of the notes so that you aren't forced into wrong notes, since Arabic has well over 12 notes per octave.
Edit: I wonder how much the above would change if you did this on an acoustic piano, on which the resonance of nearby strings would have a significant effect (especially in the top of the range that never gets damped). Although I understand that the sheer chore of returning an acoustic piano this many times would be an enormous deterrent.
wow!!!! awesome analysis 😄👍
Good summary ;) And yes, Arabic sould be played with some highlighted notice, that it is just illustrational as it really cannot be played like this on a standard piano keyboard :D
you definitely picked the wrong note to tune just intonation against
@wrentubes1886 You can blame Chopin for that. He liked to write music in keys with lots of accidentals, which are specifically the keys meantone can't play when tuned around the standard base key.
But of course, Chopin wasn't writing for meantone instruments. In his time, tunings were well tempered, and so the "exotic" keys were playable, but still had a lot of tension compared to the modern equal temperament, which I suppose he liked.
Absolutely lovely video. No BS talking, just straight to business and true to what the title says.
Thanks!!! ❤️❤️❤️🖐️
I liked Kirnberger III and meantone best.
0:41 this is labeled as being tuned to Just Major, but you don't state for which key. You're playing a song in E-flat major, but I am skeptical that the piano is set to E-flat major tuning. I would expect Just tuning for the key to sound _more_ in tune than Equal temperament, not less. Unless this nocturne has a lot of chromatic chords and notes?
It's Chopin it has a ton of out of key chords and emblesshiments
My thoughts were that it was possibly tuned to C major and that'd why it sounds so bad with a peice in e flat
My piano currently is tuned to Werckmeister III, and I truly liked it the most out of these examples. Kirnberger III I find also good, but it sounds a bit too "harsh" to my ears in G major, as you were playing.
One very nasty thing about temperament is, that I can't listen anymore to equal tuning once I've got addicted to temperament. So, 99,94% of all recorded piano music has almost become a "no go" to me ...😰
Hello, Just find the Temperament acording with your ears, enjoy, expres the best of you, and im sure others will enjoy as well.
@@music_omar Well said. 👍
Lots of love to you, MusicOmar 👋
@@oneirdaathnaram1376 😄 Thanks
It is easier to decide when you play only older music especially from pre-Bach era. However moving to the more modern music or combining more genres makes it more complicated ;) I have done some experiment with Just/Kirnberger/Werckmeister over the weekend and while trying some jazz I ended up laughing under the piano :D Strange experience ;)
This was really wonderful. I do wish I knew what tonic you were using for each of the tunings (and the key of the piece). For example, if the Just Major temperament uses E as the tonic, but the piece is in A, that is very different than if both the tuning and the piece are in D.
Hello, the Scale was the original of the piece: E flat major of nocturne op.9 No.2
this thumbnail picture/design comes from a piano book I had 20 years ago called "101 jazz licks" or something like that.
ohoooo Really? I took it from canva
I use werkmeister III but like kirnberger III as well
Both are good options. 😄
I use Wreckmeister, it sounds more pure than equal in most cases
Yes, is one of my Favorites too 😄
Do something in C major. These temperaments are normally centered around less flats/sharps
I'd love to know more about the history of these temperaments and how the composers utilized them. Thanks for the demo.
😃Composers were acutely aware of the subtle nuances imparted by different temperaments, and they often tailored their works to exploit these nuances. For instance, Johann Sebastian Bach, a towering figure of the Baroque era, composed his Well-Tempered Clavier in such a way that it could be played in all 24 major and minor keys without encountering any harsh dissonances. This was a remarkable feat, given the limitations of the unequal temperaments in use at the time.
Many thanks.
It's amazing how much out of tune to me most of these temperaments. Only kirnberger iii and Werkmeister sounded good, although equal temperament sounds alright but I never really liked it. Pythagorean and some other temperaments started sounding right at first, but soon sounded out of tune.
I agree with you, 😄
Thank you.Bach ist the old Cent Fake Undertaker of Tuning💀➡️🎯😂😂😂💖
kirnberger 3 for sure
Pythagorean and just scales are not temperaments
Equal is just awful. I can't stand it for anything. It was probably written in Kimburger III and to me that's what sounds the most beautiful.
Interesting how while the harmony sounds terrible in most temperaments, the differences in the melody are barely noticeable. Kirnberger 3 actually sounded best, better than 12TET.
Exactly...Kirnberger 3
Remind me what is this piece called again?
Chopin - Nocturne in E Flat Major (Op. 9 No. 2)
Nocturne op.9 No.2 👉th-cam.com/video/lrt3QpZSR5U/w-d-xo.html
Just intonation is my favorite (it is not a temperament though) it's the, theorically and mathematically, best way to play music but practically it doesn't work with lot of chords progressions. For sure it doesn't work here, especially what you call "just major" (is that the name of a tuning preset on this piano?). I don't understand why there is a "just major" and a "just minor" on the first place.
Helllo. I put them in the same name and order in which they come on the instrument.
@@music_omar Yeah that's what I thought, don't understand why they have made two different Just-Intonation presets for major and minor though. Maybe to be able to use more notes from JI theory (the possibilities of notes in JI is infinite) that fits either a major or a minor song. But it would make the usage of the 12 keys totally different (notes like thirds or sixths would not be in the same place than usual, etc.)
interesting point of view👍
Roland default tuning is actually 442. Did you change to 440?
Hello🙂, No, it is still in 442
@@music_omar I have a Roland too but seldom use the onboard sound 'cause I find the SuperNatural too harsh. I don't know if you're familiar with the SFZ format, but virtual instruments on that format would make it a snap to try all sorts of different tunings.
The problem with keyboards like this is they don’t show the full potential, since there is no sympathetic resonance. The resonance is enhanced and more prominent in some keys with an unequal tuning. This is partly why ET is so useless.
Ah, yes, the age-old debate between equal temperament (ET) and unequal temperaments.
How did you do this can I change the temperament in a Yamaha 5 octave keyboard?
Hello...it depends of the model of the electronic piano.
@@music_omar Thank you, I'll look into It.
If you have an electronic piano which offers the feature of different temperaments, then you simply need to find the switch that activates the temperament you want to select.
My piano is not an electronic but a transacoustic one (Yamaha YUS 5 TA2). That means on one hand it is a very normal (high-end) piano, but on the other hand I can switch it over to digital while playing through its soundboard. (So there's always wood that vibrates - no speakers.)
In the transacoustic mode, I have a wide range of different historical temperaments to choose from.
But, in fact, the normal part of the piano (which sounds most beautiful) I had let tune according to Werckmeister III. Soon I will have it changed to Bach-Lehmann as I want to explore the (presumed) temperament of "Das wohltemperierte Klavier". This means, though, engaging a professional piano-tuner who can tune my piano in that temperament. My beloved piano-tuner is working with the computer program TuneLab. (Otherwise it'd just take hours to tune the piano precisely accoring to a certain temperament. Thanks to that program he's usually done in 3/4 of an hour.)
One of the worst unequal temperaments by far is Valotti and it’s cousin Young. Utterly useless for any music from any period. To be avoided AT ALL COSTS.
😀So, go forth and explore the wide world of temperaments! You never know what hidden gems you might uncover along the way.
What about Thomas Young's 1st temperament?
@@chematortuga4325Can't tune the Roland to that using only the piano controls.
Just Major is horrible.. you tuned to the wrong key? Arabic just sounds bad. Dynamic tuning of melody to Pythagorean with justly tuned chords is best. Static tuning sounds dead. Piano is percussive not melodic.