I dont mean to be so off topic but does anybody know of a tool to get back into an instagram account..? I somehow lost the password. I love any tricks you can offer me!
@Dayton Dario I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process now. Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
I think that a good round table discussion should include Shadiversity, The Metatron, Skallagrim, LindyBeige, and Matt from scholagladiatoria. All you guys should be consultants for so-called medieval films and games. IMHO.
Putting them in the same room is a bad idea; the room would spontaneously combust from a mixture of pommels, awesomeness, dragons, swords, and awesome hair/facial hair.
Dragons codes of conduct: 1) Keep you cave/dungeon as nasty as possible 2) Always protect your treasure 3) Burn all maiden sacrifices properly 4) Kill all knights in shiny armor without hesitation
3b) make sure that you dont burn the maiden sacrifices. Because if you burn them , no knights in shiny armor will come to kill you. Thus leaving your purpose in life broken.
One thing I'd like to add to the conversation is the very different understanding of honor (in a context of both moral and law) between today, medieval europe and japan. Why that is imporant? Because things like seppuku can only be properly understood if you understand the contect of that culture. Japan in general (still) is pretty different to modern western in regards to how you judge people. They are much more collective. People aren't seen just as individuals that are responible for themself but to everybody around them. So much so that the sins of one person can affect the people around him. That might be your family or your superior or subordinate. Because of that if you commit a crime they won't just punish you but your whole family and everybody that is connected to you. This is maybe the most important reason why people voluntary commit seppuku. It's not just because it's a way to restore your own honor but the honor of everybody connected to you. Even today you have the tradition to have one person take the responsibility of a failure within a corporation and by that taking the shape of the others. In medieval Europe we had something inbetween modern western individualism and the deep connection between people in Japan. A knight was connected by honor to his superior and the acts of a knight made his subordinates look bad. But in contrast to japan it was much more limited. Your social status could be damaged by someone others actions but it was rare to have significant other consequences because of that. But if a crime was commited it was the individual that had to be punished. Others could be punished for abetting or something similar (we still have that today) but their personal honor wasn't messured by the criminal acts of people connected to them. On the moral side you could still be judged by sociaty for the acts of people connected to you. If your serve under a bad lord you where less respected then if you serve under a good lord, no matter your own actions. And a lord was regarded less if people under him acted badly.
True to an extent, but the Western world also knows many examples of the families of convicted traitors being exiled, put to death, or just shunned for the rest of their lives as potential traitors in their own right.
Overall I agree with you, however, you worded parts of your comment kinda strange: "Japan in general (still) is pretty different to modern western in regards to how you judge people. They are much more collective. People aren't seen just as individuals that are responible for themself but to everybody around them. So much so that the sins of one person can affect the people around him. That might be your family or your superior or subordinate. Because of that if you commit a crime they won't just punish you but your whole family and everybody that is connected to you." Do you mean that as today? I don't really see you clarify if you mean today or historical, or which part refers to which. Obviously, nowadays in Japan your family won't be punished alongside you. If you do a crime, only you will get punished, not your parents and so. There will of course be a stigma, but that would be the case in the West as well, though in Asia of course much more so. Also, while you are right that Japan even today is way more collective, Western People often assume it's much worse than it actually is. Japan today has become way more Individual than it used to be. Not as much as the Western World, but still, more than is often told. It also of course depends on the Social Environment of a Japanese Person. Just like in the West, some Japanese Families and Workplaces are very Conservative, while others can be very liberal (as in modern, not political/economical liberal). If you are a Japanese Art Student working as an artist, you and probably your circle of friends are going to be more individualistic than someone working in an old and established company.
The part about japan today was unclear, sry about that. I don't meat to say that there is any legal consequece but it is still a cultural thing. There is still the aspect of bringing shame to the family/workplace or taking the shame of your family or your working place by taking the blame. It is very different then it was but there is still a strong connection to the traditions regarding honor and shame. Which are collective in their origin. In normal, privat live there isn't much difference to the rest of the world, that is true. Badly worded on my part.
Is it me, or TH-cam has a for honor triangle. Shad would represent the Knights, Metatron would represent the samurai and Skall would represent the viking. Just jenrelising here but is a funny thought. I would play their charicters in for honor.
Bout a year ago Game Theory did a who would win video when For Honor was coming out. Shad, Metatron, and Skallgrim each made videos pointing out what he got wrong about Knights, Samurai, and vikings respectively.
Regarding sepuku, it's interesting because I was rewatching Youjo Senki with a friend recently and when the troops from Dacia formed lines to shoot against Tanya's troop of flying mages, my friend was horrified at their stupidity, because they were just making themselves open to be shot down. As I explained to him, the notion of standing one's ground as a matter of honor and military discipline was very much important in the past. There's also a scene in Last Exile where two opposing army airships fly past each other and the musketeers in both ships just stand in line and shoot at each other while wide open to be shot. That kind of thing actually happened in the battlefield and my friend was having a very hard time accepting that oftentimes surviving was not the top item of priority in a soldier's list, including because, if he didn't stand his ground he might be killed for desertion of his post (which my friend also thinks it's stupid, but then he has a difficult time accepting war as anything but complete stupidity). I'm reminded of the story of the 47 Ronin who, after avenging their lord, knowing they would have very likely have to commit sepuku later. However, I suspect religion helps a lot. If you're a materialist like myself and my friend, and sees humans as only protein machines, surviving is paramount, although even that is questionable and depends on the circumstances. But if you believe there's an afterlife and you're doing the right thing, and will therefore be rewarded for it (which I think is one of the basic reasons people are religious; I very much doubt we would have invented religion if we were immortal), I believe there's a greater chance of you accepting death for a cause or something like that.
I once heard it put in the following " simply put Bushido prepares us for death with no rewards, Chivalry eschews thoughts of death and looks to honorable living."
Good discussion: they kept on touching on a subject that I learned in graduate school when I was working on my Masters in History (@20 years ago). The thing many historians need to be aware of is judging past civilizations/cultures ethics, morality, and codes of honor based on our time and place. When doing this we do those past civilizations/cultures a disservice and may create a unrealistic view of those people and their ideas (good, bad, or indifferent).
Bushido as we know it originated in 1900 with a book written in English by a Japanese Christian who had spent much of his life in the west and wanted people to be less racist against Japan. When “Bushido: The Soul of Japan” was translated into Japanese, it was heavily criticized for being very detached from Japanese culture.
The way I boil this down for the modern day is I say, "listen, the knight/ samurai is a professional soldier. They are expected to do what they are told and get results. Can you imagine a sniper saying it isn't honorable to take a guy out from 1000yards? No? Exactly. Follow orders, get results. Done."
@Shad: as a lawyer student, here is my op´nion on why the seppuku was a thing: there used to be in western society (not wrong, I will get to eastern society soon), something called "infamous sentence" (this is a direct translation from portuguese to english, it may have another name in english), it works like that: you do something sohorribly bad that, not only YOU are punished, but so is your family. For example, when Brasil was still a colony of Portugal, there was an insurgency trying to get independent, the punishment was "eternal death" (hanging, then remove the limbs and head and leave parts of the guy hanging around the region he comitted the crime untill the day of the dead, a week after Easter, so everyone will see the consequences of such acts) + Infamous Sentence (his family was denied the right to serve the crown and lost all their lands, titles etc). So, why was this a thing? the idea is that, when your family can be punished for your actions, they will keep an eye at you and try to stop you from commiting certain crimes. Also, it may hit the criminal as "I'm not just risking my self, I'm risking my family", which, in a time family was everything, it could drive people into dropping out of the crime (in said insurgency, most insurgents were from rich families, so they decided it was not worth to sacrifice their families and denounced the rest of the movement, resulting in the sole guy who didn't cared for his family not dropping from the insurgency). Of course, there were some ways from avoiding this "infamous sentence", one of them would be to denounce your family member before he acts and cut him out of the family. This would ensure that the rest of the family wouldn't be punished, since they denounced the criminal. Now, how does this relate to Japan? Well, this is a speculation, but, given how it's often said that seppuku will rid the FAMILY of dishonour, I guess it was pretty much the same system: some acts would result in the family as a whole being punished, by performing ritual suicide, the offender's family wouldn't be dragged down with him. Another possibility is: you can't judge the dead, so by suiciding before being judged the guy ensured that his family couldn't be punished as result of his own faults.
Marcelo Silveira i oddly find the infamous sentence somewhat as a good idea. as long as it stayed “horrible” crimes like mutilation or leading revolts. america would ostracize family members of notorious crimes but never to that degree. it mustve prevented alot and hopefully was very rarely used except in heinous crimes. if it became a norm for petty theft then i disagree with the idea.
hm, suiciding as you are about to lose a battle might be to avoid being tortured by the enemy, I don't think it works the same as suciding because you did something your society disaproves off... yet, thank you for the information, I didn't knew about that one
as a lawyer student I must disagree with you because "one shouldn't be punished for the crimes of another". As a citzen of a country torned apart by corruption and political dinasties that do whatever they can to ensure the family stay in the top of our political systems... well, it will be bad for my career if I complete that.
and if i remember correctly, something similar was proposed to Rommel. Rommel was given a choice between committing suicide, in return for assurances that his reputation would remain intact and that his family would not be persecuted following his death, or facing a trial that would result in his disgrace and execution; he chose the former and committed suicide using a cyanide pill.
Imperial force defied, facing 500 samurai. Surrounded and outnumbered 60 to 1, the sword face the gun · Bushido dignified. It's the last stand of the samurai..
Ah, fellow Sabaton fan. I'm a metal guitarist, and my band is covering that song. :D Also, if you like that song, and are a voracious lover of metal like I am, check out the band Whispered. A metal band that sings about Japanese myth and history.
I just came home from work and it was a great day so i thought it can't get better but... than i watched the Video. And now i'am done. Now it can't get better.
Regarding Meta's example of a Samurai burning an innocent peasant's house down. Because it stands in the way of his/her lord. It sort of reminds me of Shining Knight, a medieval knight character who's a member of the Justice League. As well as being one of the fabled Knights of the Round Table. In an episode of Justice League: Unlimited, Justin confronts Gen. Wade Eiling. A disgruntled and severely blinded (in a metaphorical sense) military man who desires to destroy the entire League before they "become a threat." Eiling tells Justin "I do what I do in service to my country." To which the knight replies "once; at the bidding of my lord, King Arthur. I was tasked to lay waste to an entire village. I knew my king's heart could not be so unjust; so, I spared them all." At first glance, some would say Justin betrayed his service to Arthur by refusing his order. But surprise-surprise, Arthur thanked and praised Justin for his decision. Thinking he was a worthy knight of his court. Whether Samurai or Knight, I imagined real world examples of such figures did the exact same thing. But what say you to this
I love how you guys are geeking out on Matt Easton. It shows that you're fans as well as knowledgeable people sharing and teaching knowledge you accumulated.
Thor's Hammer. Why? They don't make *gaming* debates. There are plenty of videos concerning this on TH-cam anyway. And chances are, they probably haven't played Halo.
I LOVE both your and Metatron's channels and can't express how happy that stream made me~! Great discussion, awesome video and hope for more such wholesome goodness in the future Btw Shad, where the fuck is the discussion about (Japanese and european) Dragons?! _But What About The Dragons!?!_
This is so cool to watch. I can't wait to see what topics you come up with next. Maybe about the different weapons and defenses/armour each group came up with to solve different obstacles/issues
Awesome discussion, I learned a lot and had a lot of fun. Thank you! As the question of a seppuku equivalence is concerned, well in a Christian medieval society suicide would be a sin of course. A dishonoured knight who comitted suicide would not only fail to gain honour again, he would also damn his soul eternally. Suiciders were not allowed to be burried in holy soil, nor could there be any masses read for them. They were lost and doomed forever. However if a knight lost his honour (and honour simply means the respect and regard of your peers), he could do the following things: 1. Seeking a glorious death on the battlefield. ( Which is of course no suicide at all, but an act of great bravery. Or Stupidity. Those things are difficult to distinguish sometimes.) 2. Take a vow. There are examples of knights who blindfolded themselves before a battle, either to gain more honour or to impress their lady. (Of course King John of Bohemia, aka. John the Blind did not have to blindfold himself before he took part in the battle of Crecy, where he eventually died a glorious death. I bet he saw this coming.) 3. Take part on a crusade. Similar to point 1, with the surplus, that your immortal soul also benefits from it. 4. Become a pilgrim. Like point 3, but less brutal. (Going on Pilgrimage was also a quite popular sentence the Inquisition inflicted.) 5. Entering a monastery (conversio) . Excellent option, if you are not only worried about honour but the salvation of your soul as well. Sometimes not only the knight himself become a monk, but his whole family entered the monastery as well. There are quite a few noble families in the 12th century, that suddenly disappear in the sources and are never mentioned again. Take the German noble family of Cappenberg, for example. Since Count Gottfried of Cappernberg had a bad conscience about his looting of the cathedral of Münster, he donated all his property to the church, entered a monastery and persuaded his wife and his brother to do the same. Since there was no male heir, the family of Cappenberg vanished 1121. Or take the Sir Gaudri of Toullion, who not only forced his wife to enter a monastery like him, but also their four underage children as well.
Hm. Do you know Michael Prestwich's "Knight. The Medieval Warrior’s (Unofficial) Manual" ? It's quite fun to read, covers a lot of topics and yet does not go too much into detail. If you want to learn more about a specific knight, Thomas Asbdrige's book about William of Marshall could be of interest for you: "The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, the Power Behind Five English Thrones" There are other books of course, but since I am German, most of the literature I read is written in German as well. It is a shame that so many authors did not have their work translated into English yet. For example church historian Arnold Angenendt wrote a book about different forms of piety in the European Middelages. The book is gorgeous, it is the essence of a whole academic life.But sadly, except some German speaking medieval nerds, noone will ever read this. *sigh*.
Part of the reason that our notion of Bushido seems so similar to Chivalry is that it is a fabrication. Bushido as we know it originated in 1900 with a book written in English by a Japanese Christian who had spent much of his life in the west and wanted people to be less racist against Japan. When “Bushido: The Soul of Japan” was translated into Japanese, it was heavily criticized for being very detached from Japanese culture.
Awesome collaboration video, Shad. Shadiversity and the Metatron are a great combination. Definitely accept his invitation to pay a visit his channel. A really like this concept of each of you covering two aspects of the same topic or two similar topics. It's a nice compare and contrast.
This is a very interesting discussion, these comparisons and similarity's intrigue me in particular, as I am both European and Japanese. Anyway, I would love to see a video on Irish nobility and their code of conduct, or the Celts in general. Thanks for the video guys.
Celtic Samurai I can offer a bit of insight, though you might already know this. In medieval Ireland the duty to the clan frequently trumped duty to your feudal Lord. One story from Highland Scotland (a society based on the Irish) tells how a lord raised up his tenant farmers, from the MacIntosh clan, only to have them defect to the enemy when they met their clan chieftain on the way to join up with the army.
Seppuku sometimes got almost comical aspects to it. Towards the late Edo period, for instance, very impoverished Samurai would sometimes go to a lord's house and say, "I can't bear to live in this dishonour of poverty, any more. May I please commit an honourable Seppuku on your courtyard?" According to the social etiquette, the lord technically had to say yes, but on the other hand, having someone cut their belly open in front of your house wasn't considered especially appealing, even then, so more often than not they instead gave the Samurai some money and sent them away. So, some poor Samurai ended up making a career of this extremely passive-aggressive beggary, all covered up in this solemn ritual.
In dueling after insulting wasnt necesserly about killing your opponent but rather endangering your own life. In sword duels hurting rather than killing and later in european pistol duels sometimes you’d perpuosly miss to show mercy to your opponent while putting your trust in your opponent and in God that you’ll recieve mercy as well. It wasnt about killing the one who dishonored you (of course not always) but very similarly to samurai to show that you are willing to die for your honor. (Hi for my good engrish)
I am not sure how unique this is, but I remember my history teacher telling us that around the time the battle od Grunwald happened there was this other battle that consisted of nothing but formal duels between knights
I'm thinking mercy has a few elements here. A) If you show mercy you are saying they deserve death and you can give them death but they should live with that thought. That they are undeserving of life yet that Knight showed restraint when he didn't have too. This way the recipient lives with that forever. He could have been killed. He deserved to die yet life has been given to him . That's restraint for sure. A type of gift if you will. B) The recipient receiving mercy may very well be reformed. Particularly if it's in public. The society will make sure of that. If I offended someone grossly and they showed me mercy by not killing me then I would certainly reform my behavior. Especially when I was the aggressor in the first place. By offensive I mean gross insults, libel and slander.
I'm only half way through watching this and I'm genuinely enjoying it. A book I'd like to recommend which covers a point already mentioned several times in the vid is Inventing the Middle Ages by Norman Cantor. The book is mostly a critique of the habit of projecting modern sensibilities onto historical periods and how that can create a distorted image of how things were in the past.
When think of a specific list of things that a knight would never do I just imagine a knight in full plate sitting infront of a computer, watching a buzzfeed article titled ''Top 10 things a knight would NEVER do! You won't believe number 7!'' Regarding morality and raiding, that's really something that happened a lot back in the day, the vikings raided our Finnish coast a fair few times while we raided eachother and the Russians, all of the tribes here really loved going at any target that had any monetary value or resources. So it's hard to imagine in my opinion that the vikings would have been considered really that much anything more than just foreign raiders, but of course no matter how you look at it nobody wants to be in the recieving end of a good old viking raid. But literature, films etc. Often depict them as somekind of an overwhelming force of nature rather than just a series of raids conducted by *mostly* scandinavian people. We have to also remember that they used their maritime knowledge to do a whole bunch of other stuff, they were traders and explorers too, so the idea of a bloodthirsty pagan people from the icy north is quite silly to be completely honest.
So if you have a Reason for your action coming from a person with higher position than yours , then your action is Honorable . And any bad concequense due to that action will be transferred to that person with the higher position
When you committing sepuku, it is generally a replacement of execution, or you think you will be executed or killed. Execution is the death of a commoner, warrior have to die in bravery. In battle, sepuku is usually used to either bestow honor to your opponent who defeated you which is a sign of mutual respect. Or rob them of the honor of taking your head which is done as a one last insult. Doing a one last desperate charge is not unheard of, but the mentality of killing as many foe before dying is generally not a samurai concept. Your foe are still Japanese, and if they are also lead by an honorable samurai, they certainly dont deserve death for your failure.
@ Shad You say you can't come up with a single example of a large scale battle, where chivalry was practiced. I'll give you two: the battle at Crecy and at Poitiers, both during the 100 years' war between England and France. I don't know many details about the first, other than that the French army mainly consisted out of knights, and the English out of more common soldiers and archers, and that the French preferred fair and open combat, where the English rather used the terrain and type of troops in the most advantageous and strategical manner. The French obviously lost, I believe because the English lured them into an ambush, and had their archers shoot the horses, which caused chaos and caused many knights to be unhorsed and trampled. The Battle of Poitiers was even worse for the French; they had a large advantage in numbers, had the English surrounded on a hill, and could starve them out in a week. They decided however, that starving out your enemy wasn't the honorable way, and that they instead should choose to march their knights up the hill. Again, they lost, and this time the king and a younger prince were taken captive, the crown prince escaped because sent away only just in time, and at least two (if not all three) marshals were killed. It was only some time after, that the French adopted a different fighting style and started winning the war, by creating more of a resistance under the population, and using what we'd call guerrilla tactics now.
While I missed the live chat, I will say this. I will take (with the full medieval definition not the modern one), a chivalrous man over a goddamn overzealous bandit any day of the week.
oh man, such great video. also Metatron, same. am kind of always on a scholagladiatoria marathon. :D i rewatch (all of your videos actually) so much when i run out of stuff.
The closest modern equivalent to chivalry seems to be the Rules of Engagement, which can change in each situation. Chivalry is whatever benefits whoever pays them, with behaviour reflecting the values of same. Everything else is PR.
I can't wait for the comparative morality video. One of the fallacies I run into at church is the idea that all moral development in modern times has been decay. Yet there are several social mores from times that some people idolize that might shock folks today.
There's a solid 25 minutes of Metatron mumbling "mhhm," "yes yeas," and "yeah" in different tones in the background as Shad talks- which is subtly hilarious... great stream.
This was interesting. I have to say even to this day current military is held to different standards not only from country to country but even in different branches. Also within the US Army there are a lot of different types of jobs and from what I understand they are required to uphold the US constitutions above all. So if the were given an order that would violet the constitution they could legally refuse. Though they are not at war so it may be different from peace time and war time. But there are movies that show how soldiers stuck to their beliefs above the orders they were given and other show they abandoned their beliefs to follow orders. Personally I believe at the end of they day whatever you decide YOU have to live with it. So long as you can manage that your honor is intact.
I wish I could remember the text that we read in AP European History years ago in which some writer from medieval France described his view of what Chivalry meant. He emphasized that a knight must be extremely courteous to members of his own social class or higher, especially to high born ladies. He said that it is unchivalrous for a knight to frequent prostitutes or to waste his wealth giving gifts in order to woo women of a lower status, but that there was nothing wrong with raping peasant girls. It was taken for granted that a fighting man would have a high sex drive and was entirely unsuited for emulating the chastity of the priestly class. A warrior would absolutely need an outlet for his sexual energies. Romantic attachments that could lead to divided loyalties were to be discouraged, but sex with low class women was normal. The text did say that it was best not to rape too many women in your lord's own lands, but said that using rape as a weapon of terror against the peasants in enemy territory was strongly encouraged.
I see Metatron's headphone is already cracked at one spot. I have the same thing... By now I have taped the entire hoop since the shit is so damn fragile.
Btw one thing I would like Metatron to elaborate upon is religion (particularly prominent ones and religion in general) in Japan, how powerful it was (both at military and social level) and how much were Samurais/other Japanese men at arms influenced by religions
I'd be interested in seeing you compare European and Asian Feudalism, you could also compare the municipal Calpulli system that the Aztecs used as well, which was similar: i'm a bit unclear on the details, but cities were split up into districts wherre the land was cared for by but not owned by the citizens, and they elected what was essentially a mayor who oversaw local administrative duties. It'd be neat in general if instead of only comparing West vs East in these videos, you also did comparisons to other medieval societies, including the Americas. People have a perception the Aztecs and their neighbors were stone age, but aside from their use of stone weapons they really had quite a lot in common with europe: They had large cities with tens of thousands of people (some in the 100-250k range), complex, bureaucratic governments, wars of succession and coups, organized armies, had books and professional poets and thinkers, and did complex engineering projects. My favorite examples of the latter is that the Maya built a 100m long suspension bridge with stone abutments and vertical suspenders, making it the longest bridge in the world till around 1400, and the first true suspension bridge in history; and that the Aztec captial was built on an island in a lake, and had causeways running all across the lake basin with aquaducts along them connecting it to other cities and towns, had a dike to control water flow around the lake, and had canals running through the city like venice.
About honour in a battlefield: At the battle of Dürnkrut in 1278, King Rudolf I of Habsburg had 60 knights in reserve whom he ordered to attack the forces of the Bohemian King Ottokar II into their flanks. This was regarded as unchivalerous and therefor nobody wanted to do it. Rudolf had to urge Ulrich II of Kapellen for a long time until he did it. He also apologized to all the involved knights.
This may seem weird of me to say. But at times, I tend to look at both Chivalry AND Bushido for both spiritual and creative inspiration. In terms of "spiritual inspiration," I refer to inspiring myself to be strong in times of great need. In terms of creative inspiration, I mean that both codes offer unique ideas for stories and heroes I can write about
Hearing that his brother is draw with jazza was like a mental flashbang, used to watch him when i was a 15yr old obbsessed with art not a 19 yr old obsessed with mnb bannerlord
A more intersting discussion would be to speculate on how the first battles would influence both sides tactics. Both sides would be facing completly new challenges, and the possible chain of adaptions and counter adaptions seem really interesting. Nvm posted before watching.
Basiclly my understanding is that chivalry was enforced directly in case by case by the liege of the knight, for example, in 1357 when Bertrand Duguesclin's younger brother was captured during a truth by an english knight, Thomas Cantorbery, Duguesclin complained to the English liege, the duke of Lancaster, who forced his knight to face Duguesclin in a trial by combat after the said knight refused to aknowledge his fault, leading to Cantorbury being badly pummelled and disgraced, giving his armor and horse to Duguesclin and the brother to be freed.
The anime crossover of the century.
I dont mean to be so off topic but does anybody know of a tool to get back into an instagram account..?
I somehow lost the password. I love any tricks you can offer me!
@Ernesto Matthias Instablaster ;)
@Dayton Dario I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process now.
Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Dayton Dario it did the trick and I now got access to my account again. Im so happy:D
Thank you so much you saved my account!
@Ernesto Matthias glad I could help =)
I think that a good round table discussion should include Shadiversity, The Metatron, Skallagrim, LindyBeige, and Matt from scholagladiatoria. All you guys should be consultants for so-called medieval films and games. IMHO.
hugehappygrin and Ian lespina
that would require computer handling from Matt :P better to just put them all in the same room
hugehappygrin That would be beyond amazing.
Putting them in the same room is a bad idea; the room would spontaneously combust from a mixture of pommels, awesomeness, dragons, swords, and awesome hair/facial hair.
TheAsvarduilProject Either way, it would be amazing. Could this become a thing?
Dragons codes of conduct:
1) Keep you cave/dungeon as nasty as possible
2) Always protect your treasure
3) Burn all maiden sacrifices properly
4) Kill all knights in shiny armor without hesitation
4b) preferably with brute force so the shiny armor isn't damaged...much.
5) Expose your weak point after three to five attacks and die after the third hit taken. You have to adhere to the rule of three.
3b) make sure that you dont burn the maiden sacrifices. Because if you burn them , no knights in shiny armor will come to kill you. Thus leaving your purpose in life broken.
dont forget the obligatory english accent
Aero Ye not your if you’re trying to be northern if you’re doing chav you should first liquify all but two of your brain cells.
That's the nerdiest topic possible.
And it's amazing.
One of the best phrases that I've heard about codes of conduct: "Do the deed, write the poetry of honor later."
11:06 This is so resonant with so much around the world. Love it.
One thing I'd like to add to the conversation is the very different understanding of honor (in a context of both moral and law) between today, medieval europe and japan.
Why that is imporant? Because things like seppuku can only be properly understood if you understand the contect of that culture.
Japan in general (still) is pretty different to modern western in regards to how you judge people. They are much more collective. People aren't seen just as individuals that are responible for themself but to everybody around them. So much so that the sins of one person can affect the people around him. That might be your family or your superior or subordinate. Because of that if you commit a crime they won't just punish you but your whole family and everybody that is connected to you.
This is maybe the most important reason why people voluntary commit seppuku. It's not just because it's a way to restore your own honor but the honor of everybody connected to you.
Even today you have the tradition to have one person take the responsibility of a failure within a corporation and by that taking the shape of the others.
In medieval Europe we had something inbetween modern western individualism and the deep connection between people in Japan.
A knight was connected by honor to his superior and the acts of a knight made his subordinates look bad. But in contrast to japan it was much more limited. Your social status could be damaged by someone others actions but it was rare to have significant other consequences because of that.
But if a crime was commited it was the individual that had to be punished. Others could be punished for abetting or something similar (we still have that today) but their personal honor wasn't messured by the criminal acts of people connected to them.
On the moral side you could still be judged by sociaty for the acts of people connected to you. If your serve under a bad lord you where less respected then if you serve under a good lord, no matter your own actions. And a lord was regarded less if people under him acted badly.
As intimidating as that wall of text seems, its still pretty interesting
Takes 60 seconds to read. And yes it is a good bit of explanation.
True to an extent, but the Western world also knows many examples of the families of convicted traitors being exiled, put to death, or just shunned for the rest of their lives as potential traitors in their own right.
Overall I agree with you, however, you worded parts of your comment kinda strange:
"Japan in general (still) is pretty different to modern western in regards to how you judge people. They are much more collective. People aren't seen just as individuals that are responible for themself but to everybody around them. So much so that the sins of one person can affect the people around him. That might be your family or your superior or subordinate. Because of that if you commit a crime they won't just punish you but your whole family and everybody that is connected to you."
Do you mean that as today? I don't really see you clarify if you mean today or historical, or which part refers to which. Obviously, nowadays in Japan your family won't be punished alongside you. If you do a crime, only you will get punished, not your parents and so. There will of course be a stigma, but that would be the case in the West as well, though in Asia of course much more so.
Also, while you are right that Japan even today is way more collective, Western People often assume it's much worse than it actually is. Japan today has become way more Individual than it used to be. Not as much as the Western World, but still, more than is often told. It also of course depends on the Social Environment of a Japanese Person. Just like in the West, some Japanese Families and Workplaces are very Conservative, while others can be very liberal (as in modern, not political/economical liberal).
If you are a Japanese Art Student working as an artist, you and probably your circle of friends are going to be more individualistic than someone working in an old and established company.
The part about japan today was unclear, sry about that.
I don't meat to say that there is any legal consequece but it is still a cultural thing. There is still the aspect of bringing shame to the family/workplace or taking the shame of your family or your working place by taking the blame.
It is very different then it was but there is still a strong connection to the traditions regarding honor and shame. Which are collective in their origin.
In normal, privat live there isn't much difference to the rest of the world, that is true. Badly worded on my part.
Shad Fact: The box shad is actually a box of holding, this is where Shad keeps his pet dragons.
But what about swords?
Is it me, or TH-cam has a for honor triangle. Shad would represent the Knights, Metatron would represent the samurai and Skall would represent the viking. Just jenrelising here but is a funny thought.
I would play their charicters in for honor.
Bout a year ago Game Theory did a who would win video when For Honor was coming out.
Shad, Metatron, and Skallgrim each made videos pointing out what he got wrong about Knights, Samurai, and vikings respectively.
Knights can end them rightly in For Honor. Maybe they will be available in the near future.
Myles Adams maybe u should bring Rajputs or marathas cuz they r more similar to samurai n knights then Vikings.
Well actually Roland Warzecha is better than Skall at representing vikings.
metatron is also roman too
You guys should do more of these. Worked really well, really interesting, really entertaining.
that shad has faved so many comments here is very endearing
Regarding sepuku, it's interesting because I was rewatching Youjo Senki with a friend recently and when the troops from Dacia formed lines to shoot against Tanya's troop of flying mages, my friend was horrified at their stupidity, because they were just making themselves open to be shot down. As I explained to him, the notion of standing one's ground as a matter of honor and military discipline was very much important in the past. There's also a scene in Last Exile where two opposing army airships fly past each other and the musketeers in both ships just stand in line and shoot at each other while wide open to be shot. That kind of thing actually happened in the battlefield and my friend was having a very hard time accepting that oftentimes surviving was not the top item of priority in a soldier's list, including because, if he didn't stand his ground he might be killed for desertion of his post (which my friend also thinks it's stupid, but then he has a difficult time accepting war as anything but complete stupidity).
I'm reminded of the story of the 47 Ronin who, after avenging their lord, knowing they would have very likely have to commit sepuku later. However, I suspect religion helps a lot. If you're a materialist like myself and my friend, and sees humans as only protein machines, surviving is paramount, although even that is questionable and depends on the circumstances. But if you believe there's an afterlife and you're doing the right thing, and will therefore be rewarded for it (which I think is one of the basic reasons people are religious; I very much doubt we would have invented religion if we were immortal), I believe there's a greater chance of you accepting death for a cause or something like that.
I once heard it put in the following " simply put Bushido prepares us for death with no rewards, Chivalry eschews thoughts of death and looks to honorable living."
Good discussion: they kept on touching on a subject that I learned in graduate school when I was working on my Masters in History (@20 years ago). The thing many historians need to be aware of is judging past civilizations/cultures ethics, morality, and codes of honor based on our time and place. When doing this we do those past civilizations/cultures a disservice and may create a unrealistic view of those people and their ideas (good, bad, or indifferent).
Bushido as we know it originated in 1900 with a book written in English by a Japanese Christian who had spent much of his life in the west and wanted people to be less racist against Japan. When “Bushido: The Soul of Japan” was translated into Japanese, it was heavily criticized for being very detached from Japanese culture.
MY TWO FAVORITE HISTORICAL FIGHTING CHANNELS ARE MEETING!
AWESOME!!!
Two of my favorite historical youtubers collaborating and talking about interesting stuff? Yes, more please!
But What About Dragons!? Your next discussion with metatron should be about the differences between dragons in eastern and Western cultures
Jay15951 That would actually be a great video. Discussions about the origin of the dragon myth and how and why it changed.
Western Wyrms are still better by miles.
Jay15951 True, I have to see this.
Jay15951 In China, dragons are wingless and aquatic, but can still fly, and are good guys.
@@aero5560 Why? Eastern dragons are literally gods!
Metatron and Shad, the dream team.
You guys should include Skallagrim and Lindybeige someday.
Rxmonste matt easton too
Bintoro Aji Especially considering they mentioned him in this video I don’t see why not.
The way I boil this down for the modern day is I say, "listen, the knight/ samurai is a professional soldier. They are expected to do what they are told and get results. Can you imagine a sniper saying it isn't honorable to take a guy out from 1000yards? No? Exactly. Follow orders, get results. Done."
The noble ones have spread their MACHICOLATIONS!
Madao
That could be taken the wrong way, mate.
No matter; cheers.
Three Jamaicans thought the dislike button said "dis I like".
4 of them now
They called a few friends, now they're 17
@Shad: as a lawyer student, here is my op´nion on why the seppuku was a thing: there used to be in western society (not wrong, I will get to eastern society soon), something called "infamous sentence" (this is a direct translation from portuguese to english, it may have another name in english), it works like that: you do something sohorribly bad that, not only YOU are punished, but so is your family. For example, when Brasil was still a colony of Portugal, there was an insurgency trying to get independent, the punishment was "eternal death" (hanging, then remove the limbs and head and leave parts of the guy hanging around the region he comitted the crime untill the day of the dead, a week after Easter, so everyone will see the consequences of such acts) + Infamous Sentence (his family was denied the right to serve the crown and lost all their lands, titles etc). So, why was this a thing? the idea is that, when your family can be punished for your actions, they will keep an eye at you and try to stop you from commiting certain crimes. Also, it may hit the criminal as "I'm not just risking my self, I'm risking my family", which, in a time family was everything, it could drive people into dropping out of the crime (in said insurgency, most insurgents were from rich families, so they decided it was not worth to sacrifice their families and denounced the rest of the movement, resulting in the sole guy who didn't cared for his family not dropping from the insurgency). Of course, there were some ways from avoiding this "infamous sentence", one of them would be to denounce your family member before he acts and cut him out of the family. This would ensure that the rest of the family wouldn't be punished, since they denounced the criminal.
Now, how does this relate to Japan? Well, this is a speculation, but, given how it's often said that seppuku will rid the FAMILY of dishonour, I guess it was pretty much the same system: some acts would result in the family as a whole being punished, by performing ritual suicide, the offender's family wouldn't be dragged down with him. Another possibility is: you can't judge the dead, so by suiciding before being judged the guy ensured that his family couldn't be punished as result of his own faults.
The ancient Romans actually committed suicide almost as frequently as in Japan, especially if the defenders were about to lose a siege.
Marcelo Silveira i oddly find the infamous sentence somewhat as a good idea. as long as it stayed “horrible” crimes like mutilation or leading revolts. america would ostracize family members of notorious crimes but never to that degree. it mustve prevented alot and hopefully was very rarely used except in heinous crimes. if it became a norm for petty theft then i disagree with the idea.
hm, suiciding as you are about to lose a battle might be to avoid being tortured by the enemy, I don't think it works the same as suciding because you did something your society disaproves off... yet, thank you for the information, I didn't knew about that one
as a lawyer student I must disagree with you because "one shouldn't be punished for the crimes of another". As a citzen of a country torned apart by corruption and political dinasties that do whatever they can to ensure the family stay in the top of our political systems... well, it will be bad for my career if I complete that.
and if i remember correctly, something similar was proposed to Rommel. Rommel was given a choice between committing suicide, in return for assurances that his reputation would remain intact and that his family would not be persecuted following his death, or facing a trial that would result in his disgrace and execution; he chose the former and committed suicide using a cyanide pill.
"You want your lord to notice you" - So that's where "SENPAI NOTICED ME!!!" comes from... :P
lol that cardboard fake bookshelf made me lol when i saw metatrons REAL bookshelf lol
This is an awesome discussion. The dialogue was informative and a joy to listen to. Keep up the great work you two!
The mighty twin beards. Bless, hope in the future we will have the mighty triplet beards with Skallagrim.
Imperial force defied, facing 500 samurai. Surrounded and outnumbered 60 to 1, the sword face the gun · Bushido dignified. It's the last stand of the samurai..
Allocated Brain saw them live!!! Love Sabaton lol. First thing i thought of
was the reference needed?
Allocated Brain IN THE NAME OF GOOOD!!!
Ah, fellow Sabaton fan. I'm a metal guitarist, and my band is covering that song. :D
Also, if you like that song, and are a voracious lover of metal like I am, check out the band Whispered. A metal band that sings about Japanese myth and history.
now somebody is listening to Sabaton !
beautiful i learn so much from you guys
I just came home from work and it was a great day so i thought it can't get better but... than i watched the Video. And now i'am done. Now it can't get better.
Regarding Meta's example of a Samurai burning an innocent peasant's house down. Because it stands in the way of his/her lord.
It sort of reminds me of Shining Knight, a medieval knight character who's a member of the Justice League. As well as being one of the fabled Knights of the Round Table.
In an episode of Justice League: Unlimited, Justin confronts Gen. Wade Eiling. A disgruntled and severely blinded (in a metaphorical sense) military man who desires to destroy the entire League before they "become a threat."
Eiling tells Justin "I do what I do in service to my country." To which the knight replies "once; at the bidding of my lord, King Arthur. I was tasked to lay waste to an entire village. I knew my king's heart could not be so unjust; so, I spared them all."
At first glance, some would say Justin betrayed his service to Arthur by refusing his order. But surprise-surprise, Arthur thanked and praised Justin for his decision. Thinking he was a worthy knight of his court.
Whether Samurai or Knight, I imagined real world examples of such figures did the exact same thing. But what say you to this
I love how you guys are geeking out on Matt Easton. It shows that you're fans as well as knowledgeable people sharing and teaching knowledge you accumulated.
And I watched the same Viking video from Matt as well :)
2 of my favorite TH-camrs together, today is a good day
My Favourite Yourubers in one discussion, GOD IS THIS REAL?!!
Ádám Énekes
They should a video on which energy weapon is better the Lightsaber from Star Wars against the Energy Sword from Halo.
Thor's Hammer. Why? They don't make *gaming* debates. There are plenty of videos concerning this on TH-cam anyway. And chances are, they probably haven't played Halo.
This is a great discussion.
There i thought i needed to stand up from my PC while uploading and you guys come along. Thanks :)
I LOVE both your and Metatron's channels and can't express how happy that stream made me~!
Great discussion, awesome video and hope for more such wholesome goodness in the future
Btw Shad, where the fuck is the discussion about (Japanese and european) Dragons?! _But What About The Dragons!?!_
Shad, I need more of your videos on writing. And no, this is not a request. It's a plea.
This is so cool to watch. I can't wait to see what topics you come up with next. Maybe about the different weapons and defenses/armour each group came up with to solve different obstacles/issues
Great content, i would love to see more of this kind of video
We need more crossovers like that!
Awesome discussion, I learned a lot and had a lot of fun. Thank you!
As the question of a seppuku equivalence is concerned, well in a Christian medieval society suicide would be a sin of course. A dishonoured knight who comitted suicide would not only fail to gain honour again, he would also damn his soul eternally. Suiciders were not allowed to be burried in holy soil, nor could there be any masses read for them. They were lost and doomed forever.
However if a knight lost his honour (and honour simply means the respect and regard of your peers), he could do the following things:
1. Seeking a glorious death on the battlefield. ( Which is of course no suicide at all, but an act of great bravery. Or Stupidity. Those things are difficult to distinguish sometimes.)
2. Take a vow. There are examples of knights who blindfolded themselves before a battle, either to gain more honour or to impress their lady. (Of course King John of Bohemia, aka. John the Blind did not have to blindfold himself before he took part in the battle of Crecy, where he eventually died a glorious death. I bet he saw this coming.)
3. Take part on a crusade. Similar to point 1, with the surplus, that your immortal soul also benefits from it.
4. Become a pilgrim. Like point 3, but less brutal. (Going on Pilgrimage was also a quite popular sentence the Inquisition inflicted.)
5. Entering a monastery (conversio) . Excellent option, if you are not only worried about honour but the salvation of your soul as well. Sometimes not only the knight himself become a monk, but his whole family entered the monastery as well. There are quite a few noble families in the 12th century, that suddenly disappear in the sources and are never mentioned again. Take the German noble family of Cappenberg, for example. Since Count Gottfried of Cappernberg had a bad conscience about his looting of the cathedral of Münster, he donated all his property to the church, entered a monastery and persuaded his wife and his brother to do the same. Since there was no male heir, the family of Cappenberg vanished 1121.
Or take the Sir Gaudri of Toullion, who not only forced his wife to enter a monastery like him, but also their four underage children as well.
You know a lot...
Can you give reading recommendations?
Hm. Do you know Michael Prestwich's "Knight. The Medieval Warrior’s (Unofficial) Manual" ? It's quite fun to read, covers a lot of topics and yet does not go too much into detail.
If you want to learn more about a specific knight, Thomas Asbdrige's book about William of Marshall could be of interest for you: "The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, the Power Behind Five English Thrones"
There are other books of course, but since I am German, most of the literature I read is written in German as well. It is a shame that so many authors did not have their work translated into English yet. For example church historian Arnold Angenendt wrote a book about different forms of piety in the European Middelages. The book is gorgeous, it is the essence of a whole academic life.But sadly, except some German speaking medieval nerds, noone will ever read this. *sigh*.
It still amazes me how much Europe and east Asia parallel each other even though there was very little contact between the two.
Part of the reason that our notion of Bushido seems so similar to Chivalry is that it is a fabrication. Bushido as we know it originated in 1900 with a book written in English by a Japanese Christian who had spent much of his life in the west and wanted people to be less racist against Japan. When “Bushido: The Soul of Japan” was translated into Japanese, it was heavily criticized for being very detached from Japanese culture.
Awesome collaboration video, Shad. Shadiversity and the Metatron are a great combination. Definitely accept his invitation to pay a visit his channel. A really like this concept of each of you covering two aspects of the same topic or two similar topics. It's a nice compare and contrast.
Shad: the Maester of TH-cam.
This chat was so nice to watch that I was sad when it ended!
This is a very interesting discussion, these comparisons and similarity's intrigue me in particular, as I am both European and Japanese. Anyway, I would love to see a video on Irish nobility and their code of conduct, or the Celts in general. Thanks for the video guys.
Celtic Samurai I can offer a bit of insight, though you might already know this. In medieval Ireland the duty to the clan frequently trumped duty to your feudal Lord. One story from Highland Scotland (a society based on the Irish) tells how a lord raised up his tenant farmers, from the MacIntosh clan, only to have them defect to the enemy when they met their clan chieftain on the way to join up with the army.
Seppuku sometimes got almost comical aspects to it. Towards the late Edo period, for instance, very impoverished Samurai would sometimes go to a lord's house and say, "I can't bear to live in this dishonour of poverty, any more. May I please commit an honourable Seppuku on your courtyard?"
According to the social etiquette, the lord technically had to say yes, but on the other hand, having someone cut their belly open in front of your house wasn't considered especially appealing, even then, so more often than not they instead gave the Samurai some money and sent them away. So, some poor Samurai ended up making a career of this extremely passive-aggressive beggary, all covered up in this solemn ritual.
Love you Shad, and thank you for having Metatron with you. Both of you are hansom and full of fun knowledge!
that was a amazing time ! realy enjoy listening you two talk on those subjects
In dueling after insulting wasnt necesserly about killing your opponent but rather endangering your own life. In sword duels hurting rather than killing and later in european pistol duels sometimes you’d perpuosly miss to show mercy to your opponent while putting your trust in your opponent and in God that you’ll recieve mercy as well. It wasnt about killing the one who dishonored you (of course not always) but very similarly to samurai to show that you are willing to die for your honor. (Hi for my good engrish)
Why can I only upvote this once?! :D
The Metatron and Shad LIVE:...Epic as Rhapsody's discography! :D
Behind metatron, a lot of books...behind shad a lot of bo....WAIT A MIN!!!!!!!!!!
Yep!
They are... kind of...
Shad now had a whole library because of this comment...
37:53
"You want your lord to notice you"
No one:
The samurai:
Notice me senpai!
I am not sure how unique this is, but I remember my history teacher telling us that around the time the battle od Grunwald happened there was this other battle that consisted of nothing but formal duels between knights
Could you perhaps do a video about where in the feudal system the professional soldiers and mercenaries fit into? I am interested in that subject
Something akin to State Troops right? I'm also interested to know about that.
I'm thinking mercy has a few elements here.
A) If you show mercy you are saying they deserve death and you can give them death but they should live with that thought. That they are undeserving of life yet that Knight showed restraint when he didn't have too. This way the recipient lives with that forever. He could have been killed. He deserved to die yet life has been given to him . That's restraint for sure. A type of gift if you will.
B) The recipient receiving mercy may very well be reformed. Particularly if it's in public. The society will make sure of that. If I offended someone grossly and they showed me mercy by not killing me then I would certainly reform my behavior. Especially when I was the aggressor in the first place. By offensive I mean gross insults, libel and slander.
I'm only half way through watching this and I'm genuinely enjoying it.
A book I'd like to recommend which covers a point already mentioned several times in the vid is Inventing the Middle Ages by Norman Cantor. The book is mostly a critique of the habit of projecting modern sensibilities onto historical periods and how that can create a distorted image of how things were in the past.
When think of a specific list of things that a knight would never do I just imagine a knight in full plate sitting infront of a computer, watching a buzzfeed article titled ''Top 10 things a knight would NEVER do! You won't believe number 7!''
Regarding morality and raiding, that's really something that happened a lot back in the day, the vikings raided our Finnish coast a fair few times while we raided eachother and the Russians, all of the tribes here really loved going at any target that had any monetary value or resources. So it's hard to imagine in my opinion that the vikings would have been considered really that much anything more than just foreign raiders, but of course no matter how you look at it nobody wants to be in the recieving end of a good old viking raid. But literature, films etc. Often depict them as somekind of an overwhelming force of nature rather than just a series of raids conducted by *mostly* scandinavian people. We have to also remember that they used their maritime knowledge to do a whole bunch of other stuff, they were traders and explorers too, so the idea of a bloodthirsty pagan people from the icy north is quite silly to be completely honest.
This video was amazing both of my favorite TH-camrs in the same video Im lost for words.,⚔️🗡️🏹🛡️
I have been a big fan of both of you for years! So cool to see a video like this.
Good to see shad give a shout out to History with Hilbert, excellent channel. Also found it through the response video to Matt.
So if you have a Reason for your action coming from a person with higher position than yours , then your action is Honorable .
And any bad concequense due to that action will be transferred to that person with the higher position
When you committing sepuku, it is generally a replacement of execution, or you think you will be executed or killed. Execution is the death of a commoner, warrior have to die in bravery.
In battle, sepuku is usually used to either bestow honor to your opponent who defeated you which is a sign of mutual respect. Or rob them of the honor of taking your head which is done as a one last insult. Doing a one last desperate charge is not unheard of, but the mentality of killing as many foe before dying is generally not a samurai concept. Your foe are still Japanese, and if they are also lead by an honorable samurai, they certainly dont deserve death for your failure.
That was great fun to watch! Sadly I had not the time to watch it live but it was worth to spend 50 minutes to do it now!
@ Shad
You say you can't come up with a single example of a large scale battle, where chivalry was practiced. I'll give you two: the battle at Crecy and at Poitiers, both during the 100 years' war between England and France.
I don't know many details about the first, other than that the French army mainly consisted out of knights, and the English out of more common soldiers and archers, and that the French preferred fair and open combat, where the English rather used the terrain and type of troops in the most advantageous and strategical manner. The French obviously lost, I believe because the English lured them into an ambush, and had their archers shoot the horses, which caused chaos and caused many knights to be unhorsed and trampled.
The Battle of Poitiers was even worse for the French; they had a large advantage in numbers, had the English surrounded on a hill, and could starve them out in a week. They decided however, that starving out your enemy wasn't the honorable way, and that they instead should choose to march their knights up the hill. Again, they lost, and this time the king and a younger prince were taken captive, the crown prince escaped because sent away only just in time, and at least two (if not all three) marshals were killed. It was only some time after, that the French adopted a different fighting style and started winning the war, by creating more of a resistance under the population, and using what we'd call guerrilla tactics now.
Drachenry - chivalry for dragons and the dragons' human pets.
While I missed the live chat, I will say this. I will take (with the full medieval definition not the modern one), a chivalrous man over a goddamn overzealous bandit any day of the week.
oh man, such great video. also Metatron, same. am kind of always on a scholagladiatoria marathon. :D i rewatch (all of your videos actually) so much when i run out of stuff.
The closest modern equivalent to chivalry seems to be the Rules of Engagement, which can change in each situation. Chivalry is whatever benefits whoever pays them, with behaviour reflecting the values of same. Everything else is PR.
Real fun and interesting guys, looking forward to the next one
I can't wait for the comparative morality video. One of the fallacies I run into at church is the idea that all moral development in modern times has been decay. Yet there are several social mores from times that some people idolize that might shock folks today.
Thanks Shad, Thanks Metatron, this has been a MASSIVE help to me, this kind of discussion, with writing my For Honor stuff. :)
There's a solid 25 minutes of Metatron mumbling "mhhm," "yes yeas," and "yeah" in different tones in the background as Shad talks- which is subtly hilarious... great stream.
I can see you. I can see Metatron.
But what about dragons?
Shad's wife got bored with these nerdy subjects and finally forced him to broadcast from the toilet.
RumRumRum wait! Is he married?
I don't see any ring on his finger
Well, that is simply for keeping his female audience's hopes up.
The best crossover ever
This was interesting. I have to say even to this day current military is held to different standards not only from country to country but even in different branches. Also within the US Army there are a lot of different types of jobs and from what I understand they are required to uphold the US constitutions above all. So if the were given an order that would violet the constitution they could legally refuse. Though they are not at war so it may be different from peace time and war time. But there are movies that show how soldiers stuck to their beliefs above the orders they were given and other show they abandoned their beliefs to follow orders. Personally I believe at the end of they day whatever you decide YOU have to live with it. So long as you can manage that your honor is intact.
Great content! Very informative.
I wish I could remember the text that we read in AP European History years ago in which some writer from medieval France described his view of what Chivalry meant. He emphasized that a knight must be extremely courteous to members of his own social class or higher, especially to high born ladies. He said that it is unchivalrous for a knight to frequent prostitutes or to waste his wealth giving gifts in order to woo women of a lower status, but that there was nothing wrong with raping peasant girls. It was taken for granted that a fighting man would have a high sex drive and was entirely unsuited for emulating the chastity of the priestly class. A warrior would absolutely need an outlet for his sexual energies. Romantic attachments that could lead to divided loyalties were to be discouraged, but sex with low class women was normal. The text did say that it was best not to rape too many women in your lord's own lands, but said that using rape as a weapon of terror against the peasants in enemy territory was strongly encouraged.
The dishonored knight would lose his position, have his spurs hacked off by a cook, his crest painted over in a public cerimony.
Great chat guys
Excellent discussion between my two favorite experts. Shad: machiculationssssss
"The three big things for me are swords, castles and knights" ... But what about DRAGONS?
I see Metatron's headphone is already cracked at one spot. I have the same thing... By now I have taped the entire hoop since the shit is so damn fragile.
Thank you for the video comparing the two philosophies :)
I watch this almost 4 years later and it was awesome. XD
Btw one thing I would like Metatron to elaborate upon is religion (particularly prominent ones and religion in general) in Japan, how powerful it was (both at military and social level) and how much were Samurais/other Japanese men at arms influenced by religions
I'd be interested in seeing you compare European and Asian Feudalism, you could also compare the municipal Calpulli system that the Aztecs used as well, which was similar: i'm a bit unclear on the details, but cities were split up into districts wherre the land was cared for by but not owned by the citizens, and they elected what was essentially a mayor who oversaw local administrative duties.
It'd be neat in general if instead of only comparing West vs East in these videos, you also did comparisons to other medieval societies, including the Americas. People have a perception the Aztecs and their neighbors were stone age, but aside from their use of stone weapons they really had quite a lot in common with europe: They had large cities with tens of thousands of people (some in the 100-250k range), complex, bureaucratic governments, wars of succession and coups, organized armies, had books and professional poets and thinkers, and did complex engineering projects.
My favorite examples of the latter is that the Maya built a 100m long suspension bridge with stone abutments and vertical suspenders, making it the longest bridge in the world till around 1400, and the first true suspension bridge in history; and that the Aztec captial was built on an island in a lake, and had causeways running all across the lake basin with aquaducts along them connecting it to other cities and towns, had a dike to control water flow around the lake, and had canals running through the city like venice.
24:30 "The big three things for me is Swords, Castles and Knights."
You look for the why and the what... so WHAT about dragons?!
Excellent! Now I can compare and decide which human equivalent is closer to the code I try desperately to follow.
Take a shot every time they say the word "interesting".
But what about Eastern Dragons??
Quality collab! I loved that!
About honour in a battlefield: At the battle of Dürnkrut in 1278, King Rudolf I of Habsburg had 60 knights in reserve whom he ordered to attack the forces of the Bohemian King Ottokar II into their flanks. This was regarded as unchivalerous and therefor nobody wanted to do it. Rudolf had to urge Ulrich II of Kapellen for a long time until he did it. He also apologized to all the involved knights.
This may seem weird of me to say. But at times, I tend to look at both Chivalry AND Bushido for both spiritual and creative inspiration.
In terms of "spiritual inspiration," I refer to inspiring myself to be strong in times of great need. In terms of creative inspiration, I mean that both codes offer unique ideas for stories and heroes I can write about
Hearing that his brother is draw with jazza was like a mental flashbang, used to watch him when i was a 15yr old obbsessed with art not a 19 yr old obsessed with mnb bannerlord
this is awesome. a super interesting conversation
A more intersting discussion would be to speculate on how the first battles would influence both sides tactics.
Both sides would be facing completly new challenges, and the possible chain of adaptions and counter adaptions seem
really interesting.
Nvm posted before watching.
Basiclly my understanding is that chivalry was enforced directly in case by case by the liege of the knight, for example, in 1357 when Bertrand Duguesclin's younger brother was captured during a truth by an english knight, Thomas Cantorbery, Duguesclin complained to the English liege, the duke of Lancaster, who forced his knight to face Duguesclin in a trial by combat after the said knight refused to aknowledge his fault, leading to Cantorbury being badly pummelled and disgraced, giving his armor and horse to Duguesclin and the brother to be freed.