Why do you need to see the player Display if everything is working as it should (W/O adding any Digital Noise to the Music,which the Led Display might add)
@@stephenassante4405 It's just an FYI. I specified in the video that the Sony doesn't ever have a display. Users should know that in pure direct mode, neither does the Yamaha.
A stunning piece of art, and you touch it…this guy sounds like he hates it, then he waxes enthusiastically about the Yamaha, gorgeous ….is he talking about women or an audio product??😮 later he says he’s been told by an Audiologist that they can’t measure his hearing it goes “beyond” want they can measure. I happen to know that an audiologist can measure up to 20khz and this guys “maybe” in his late thirties. The fact that he said that means he lost ALL credibility with me. NO ONE and I mean no one can hear frequencies that high. Googles your friend. I challenge him to post the company that did his hearing test. He’s full of p**p…….its the KISS principle. If he claims something so out of reality is say everything about his reviews.
Another question Ive got to ask, who the heck is Diane Bish and who cares? This guy sounds like he’s personally affronted by this, might it be that no one cares about Diane Bish except him? SACD manufacturers hear this! We want a Diane Bish SACD. Response: who’s Diane Bish? 😅
You cannot extract the SACD layer of a disc via coaxial or optical output. You could use the HDMI output and send the signal to a receiver capable of encoding SACD. Otherwise, SACD can only be sent out via the analog outputs (xlr or rca). So the signal you would hear from the coaxial or optical output would be the redbook layer of the disc, not the sacd layer. Most SACD discs have both layers of audio.
S/PDIF can output max 24bit/192kHz (uncompressed 2 channel or compressed 5.1)... It's much higher than CD (16bit/44.1kHz) contrary to what Scientific Audiophile said in this video. But if I understand it correctly, SACD DSD is not licensed for that. So it wont play anyway... Optical (TOSLINK) is soooo outdated that there is no point of talking about it... Sony UBP-X800M2 converts DSD from SACD over HDMI to 24bit/88kHz and 24bit/176.4kHz PCM that is still higher than CD Redbook specs. It can send out 2.8MHz DSD through HDMI too... but as you mentioned, one need a proper DAC, integrated amp or AVR that can read it. The problem I have with such reviews is that they compare two different things: In this case Yamaha analogue stage with Sony digital transport.
If I had unlimited cash I would definitely go for the Yamaha, while realizing that I am buying it for the looks only. In the years I have auditioned and owned numerous CD players and DACs I am convinced there are hardly any differences between CD players and DACS in all price categories. If there are subtle differences they only show up in direct comparison. They are never obvious, you have to focus and doubt repeatedly. The current state of audio equipment is that for very little money you get excellent sound. Long gone are the days in where there were big differences in audio quality relating to price. Cheap headphones truly sounded like crap. Nowadays for 50 bucks you already can get a decent pair. And the digital media may be one of the most successful social equality achievements in the last decades. Great sound for very little cash. That said, I still wouldn't go for the cheapest product. Looks matter. When I am browsing for classical music CD's on Discogs I would always pick the CD release with the prettiest CD cover/booklet. Even if it would cost me 10 euros more. No DG Galleria or Philips DUO CD's for me when I can get the original release in a more handsome package. Yes I am that shallow.
As a Sony enthusiast owner, I say that if you connect the sony's hdmi2 (audio only) to a converter (hdmi-to-IIS) and the IIS output of the converter to a DAC capable of managing a IIS format (I use a SMSL DO200), you will have all the bandwidth possible as the full DSD signal goes out only through HDMI. On the Sony the coax and spdif put out a DOP 64 signal (DSD over PCM 64 bit, not the best alll...). The audible result is Stunning....
I literally just commented on this. I just bought a bdp-bx37 this week for $8. These DSD pass through boxes finally render all these fancy players (practically) obsolete. I might sell my oppo, as it's slow as molasses reading discs. I also have been buying those scd-ce595 when I find them in the wild. I have bought 4 of them at under 20 each over the past several years, and habe been passing them out to friends and family. They don't have hdmi out, but they do have surround sound rca outs to listen to sacd surround sound in older receivers.
I moved recently from my Yamaha CD-S300 to the CD-S2100. Was a bit sceptical about the actual listening differences at first and wasn't sure if the placebo effect would be in full swing there but boy oh boy was I wrong and surprised. The smack of the female vocalist lips the tones of snares and cimbals the S300 just couldn't output, all suddenly hit me. Invest in a high end cd player - it's definitely worth it, it will return you favor and repay you in spades.
CD-S2100 was on my wish-to-own list but due to finances I went with the CD-S1000, and just as you I moved from the CD-N301 (CD-S300 with streaming capabilities) and was pleasantly surprised with the additional clarity. Did many A-B tests on rock pop and jazz CDs I own. Enjoy yours!
@phantasm1004 I completely agree. The funny thing is, I have more subscribers but I have no videos. Just be nice and helpful. I don't think his schtick will work.
The reason coaxial wouldn't work on the Yamaha with SACDs is because it is a native PCM format. The converter that can handle DSD is in the Yamaha which is of course is routed to the analog outputs.
Yessir. If Sony UDP had a dedicated CD / USB play shuffle button on its remote like OPPO did it would be the best audio darling for the decade coming. Note: Nothing matches "S" Yamahas for music long listening sessions. Bass is absolutely underrated as the rest of the spectrum. The nearest next station is Accuphase. Enjoy!
Great content! I said the same thing when I saw Andrew rave about how amazing this theater system from Sony was... it's pretty much a surround system in a box (reminded me something from the 90's) but his exaggerated review made me think Sony is sending him checks or equipment.
You only heard the sacd on the Yamaha, the sony universal player converts Dsd to pcm that's why you were only listening pcm sound through coaxial... its not real sacd sound... so OfCourse the high frequency was not as good on the sony, SACD through optical is a joke right? So in other words you were comparing apples to oranges, which is not "scientific" at all! You have a lot to learn and do your homework on technology and equipment to become an audiophile, your ability to hear high frequencies is obviously not enough. get the Dsd versions of those sacds on a computer connect it to your rme through usb and then you can compare the sound of rme to the Yamaha.
You must be in Arizona, because damn you're dry. Haven't checked in for a bit, so was surprised to see more reality intruding in your analysis. I liked it and still love your deadpan delivery. Thanks.
I have the Sony X800 and replaced my Yamaha DVD-S2500 SACD player with it. The Yamaha players sound good, but they are too glitchy and slow. The Sony X800 player works best as a transport. Use a home theater receiver as your pre-amp, and connect the Sony via HDMI. I use my Yamaha TSR-7850 strictly as a network enabled pre-amp, and the Sony bitstreams DSD to it, feeding my Onkyo M-504 amp and B&W 684 S2 speakers. It sounds incredible. Plus, since the Yamaha is network enabled, I also use MusicCast to stream Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music, and Apple Music directly to the receiver’s DAC via WiFi.
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Great idea, I do the same albeit with a twist, because I have connected My Panasonic BP-UB400 directly to a Nobsound Q3 DAC and from it to a Samsung HT-E320 as an amplifier.
I just yesterday returned my Yamaha CD s1000BL sacd player. I had it for three days and got so frustrated with. It was such a finicky player! There were some of my normal red book cd’s that it wouldn’t play. My Cambridge CXC v2 cd transport played them? I read that others have had the same issue? If you pay over a$1000 for a player the darn thing needs to work properly. I was not a fan of the Yamaha’s tray, as was described you are not given much room to properly seat the cd. It sounded really good, just a shame that it had issues reading cd’s!
I have the same sony, I like the sound so far (coaxial). I was thinking of using some receiver as a pre-amp (to use that HDMI out) but I will be listening in stereo for the time being. Anyway, there might be DAC"s with HDMI in .....
This was the best video I've seen. Its inspired me to get the yammy SACD. You and me both. I can hear minuscule details and notice the fine prints with Audio. I listened to the same song that was supposedly remastered the vanilla ice ninja rap compared to the original and I was blown away with the difference. My local had it refurbished for a decent price and I should of got it.... however I could also get a marantz SACD player instead...
The Yamaha CD-S2100 had been measured by an Australian hifi magazine and found to be inverting absolute polarity via both its XLR and RCA analogue outputs
@scientificaudiophile i appreciate your taking the time to check and verify the claims in that review about Yamaha inverting absolute polarity on the S2100，and if you would to go deeper and check the reviews for the S3000 and S2000 from the same magazine, you will find that both these 2 other models invert polarity as well. This is a big issue as inverting absolute polarity is actually quite audible, unlike what that reviewer claimed, and it can have adverse effects on imaging delineation, dynamic contrast, and overall sense of musicality.
The Bach is very well played - I do love music and also play violin. If you want to hear how fast it can be played, then check out final movements played by Nigel Kennedy. As for the SACD player not providing output on digital coax: this is down to the copyright protection on SACDs. Thank you for making this comparison.
I agree about the tray on the CD-S2100, it is way too shallow and I jammed mine on the first try. After that I learned to make sure the disc is centered in those little gray rubber nubbins I also wish the display was a more visible modern type. I really don't care about SACD, I just wanted a player to match my integrated amp. I only have a couple of samplers in SACD and at my age my brain and ears aren't all that picky. Where I did notice a difference was playing regular CDs on the Yamaha compared to my almost thirteen year old Panasonic BluRay player that only cost $160 back then. That was noticeable to me, but if I only had the old unit I could survive just fine.
Okay, I didn't know anything about you until yesterday and then I watched "Calling out the reviewers" which was hilarious; "congratulations mom for doing what every other old person has ever done". A regular jokester.
No coax or optical for the Yamaha I think because of the copy protection for SACDs. Not sure why the Sony allows it though. I wonder if the Sony converts the DSD to standard PCM?
Yes it does. you can select two channel stereo audio and also multichannel audio from DSD and you can covert it to LPCM and PCM (or it does automatically) when your connected device does not support DSD format. (according to manual. I have the sony but not a receiver with or other device with HDMI input for audio (yet).
It's Moat-zart, you philistine. And that Hilary Hahn SACD is great, at least my pal who told me to buy it says it is and he owns a cello so must therefore be right. Also nobody buys wine in bottles any more. Boxes are much better and easier to stack.
You make a fair point. I would like to offer a counterpoint though. You got a 50/50 shot of the Yamaha outlasting 10 Soni*, and when you factor in inflation for each replacement Sony the Yamaha starts to look like a bargain. Your grandchildren's friends will all marvel at the sound it makes when they bounce their brass renminbi coins off of it. *The plural of Sony.
This gentleman with ‘Golden Ears’ claims that when tested by an Audiologist his hearing exceeded the limits of the Audiologist’s test equipment. Hearing tests only go up to 8Khz.
Glad I kept my OPPO BDP-83... I use the HDMI output with a digital breakout box to send that DSD/SACD signal to my Denafrips DAC... And it has a display!
You only talk about high edge frequencies, but what about soundstage transparency details dynamics speed separation and so much more that make the audiophile sound? What about the image, the placement of the musicians in front of you? microdetails of the midrange frequencies?
I was hoping for some charts comparing the output between the two sources, I don't doubt there's minimal difference between the two but it'd be pretty interesting to see what actually changed (or didn't)
The problem with measurements is that they don't come close to my level of hearing. So even if they measurements don't hear a difference, it doesn't mean I won't.
@@scientificaudiophile I just started watching your videos, I hadn't yet realized how powerful your golden ears are - I hope you demagnetized your CDs before testing them
great review I was just in the middle of considering whether to buy this Sony UBP-X800M2 or not and feared that thing can't be too good due to its mass consumer-target construction...I was litterally yesterday at the shop to check its finishing. Very helpful review for me.
Another great review.. But.. the Yamaha is silver and the Sony looks like a massive chocolate sandwich.. now a massive chocolate sandwich may sound lovely and my kids would prefer it over a silver box, but they are 6 and 8, that's Thier age not audiophile rating.. Luckily I do have an RME FS2 dac. And makes such a musical sound when I hit the children with it, well they need to pay more attention when critical listening, even if Thier crappy pop music doesn't roll off at 60khz.. Thanks for the review, and my take on this is that the kids can buy the sandwich, when they start earning money,
I have a similar situation with my X800 and my (somewhat cheaper than the Yamaha) Denon dcd 1600. I honestly can't tell the difference. Do you know why my X800 will play SACDs through my Chord Qutest, but my Denon won't?
Is that the stereo or multi setting? Because it is set to stereo. I didn't even realise that this setting existed. It plays ordinary CDs OK. but with an SACD, the frequency light on the Qutest (from the coax digital input on the Denon) immediately goes out and all sound ceases. Incidentally, when I switch from the Qutest input to the line input to my amp direct from the Denon, the volume is considerably louder. Fabulous stuff from you by the way.
After reading this forum message from George P it does seem to be a PCM issue: “After a number of calls to Tech Support and a few emails to Tech Support, Denon has now confirmed that when using the analog output, the DCD-1600NE does not convert the DSD layer of an SACD to PCM!” forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/denon-dcd-1600ne-sacd-cd-player.746187/page-2
What's this Moe's Art thing he keeps speaking of? Also, you can't say you have golden ears because Steve Guttenberg has trademarked those words. He's seventy four years old, but can still hear the differences between cables. It's quite astounding.
You should've hooked the Sony into the DAC input of the Yamaha so they would be using the same DAC to make things more equal. Not that it would have changed much.
DACS are for people that don't understand how digital works. Essentially it's ones and zeros. If you alter the code it just won't play. Up until recent times we used discs to hold important code because it was accurate stable and cannot be altered. The only difference is the equalization that most companies use to get different sounds from their products. Marantz and Denon are the same company and they tune Denon for clinical listening. Marantz is tuned for warmth. I've done engineering at multiple companies and that's the secret sauce to you to pay more.
Are you saying that the Sony UBP-X800M2 outputs DSD signals (SACD LAYER) on either the Sony player's digital outs that you can then feed your RME DAC and decode DSD ? That would be a shocker.
@@JohnSmith-zl8rz It is BUILT like a tank, Made in Japan, have it for ~3+ years now with ZERO issues.... I've seen them at $2K now, still pricey but it's my forever SACD Player / Streamer !
Are you seriously saying there was no discernible difference in sound quality between the players other than a slightly more extended bass with the Yamaha ?
Ok that's fine. I just wanted to confirm that that was what you were saying. Presumably you were testing both players through their rca outputs in a reasonably resolving system ?
@scientificaudiophile I see now why the sony and yamaha produced similar sound quality. It was because you were only using the sony as a transport as it was fed to the rme dac and then balanced outputs from this into your yamaha amplifier. The result is therefore not so surprising to me.
Nice video! I’m curious about one detail. How you connect the Sony to the Rme? Through coaxial and from coaxial you stream a dsd stream to the rme ? I have the same Sony player and the unique way to transmit to the dac the dsd from the sacd is to use an hdmi to i2s adapter . Are you using the same solution to connect the Sony and the rme dac or another solution ?
SACD players will not output any DSD digital stream on SPDIF (Coax or Toslink).. Just I2S but that's a bit of a can of worms in making sure you have the right DSD capable DAC (apparently, I2S implementation is wild wild west).
You don't need an HDMI I²S coonection for SACDs, it's just 24/96 which is usually supported by COAX as well as optical cables. The I²S is only needed for DSD.
this is a weird comparison ... talk about apples to oranges... if you're going to use an external DAC then the yamaha is obviously not the right choice , why would you pay so much $ for such a substantial component with high quality internal dac and analogue circuitry simply to try and bylass it all with the digital out? if you really heard any difference, it wasnt between the two players - it was the difference between your RME DAC and the Yamaha internal DAC...
Yes, from the description of his test setting he basically tested the ESS9016 and it's implementation in the Yamaha against the ESS9028Q2M (if your RME is the 2021 version) and it's implementation in the RME, which doesn't have much to do with the SONY. A solution to avoid this would've been to connect the Sony (optical or coax) to the input ports of the Yamaha and test both with the Yamaha's DAC. But then again, it would have been again mostly a test of the DAC and less of the DIGITAL player (because it's digital, right ... *triggerwarning* ;-P). So, by having two different DAC chips in the chain, it actually would've been very surprising NOT to hear a difference ... (I'm far from having golden ears, but still could hear the difference between my old Yamaha BluRay player's DAC and my integrated amp's DAC, so these things can sound different).
So there's no point in listening to anything else but Dianne Bish? Guess I'll sell my CD and record collection. Wish I'd known that before spending all that money. I do have to say that I find your "I am the God of all audio" attitude very annoying.
Cheap used Oppo.... Now thatz funny. I have the sony. 700 and 800. I hate them both. But especially the 700 for its jitter drop outs and instability. Maybe the Revon or Pioneer.....
Much like yourself, I too have ultra-sonic hearing, and I can assure you there is no audible difference between the stock earbuds that come with an off the shelf smartphone and, oh lets say, a Hifiman Susvara. Thats just $6000 worth of audiophile snake oil. Thank you for your disservice to our community!
Apples to apples? Not really. The Sony at $300.00 looks overpriced and I am willing to wager that my Pioneer Elite DV-47ai that I use to play sacd/cd will outperform it. It's built considerably better in every respect with three 192khz/24-bit Burr Brown audio dacs. I think I paid twenty-thirty bucks for it used with a nice remote. It's like you compared a Honda Civic to a Porsche 911 to go grocery shopping and see which was better at it. Fully exploit the capabilities of the Yamaha in a full range or near full range system that will do it justice and then talk about dynamics, noise levels, etc. Oh, and I own a 2100 also, and an even much better player than that. Of its many design features, of note is the discrete single-stage I/V (current to voltage) conversion instead of cheap chips, screwed down power supply connections reducing resistance, that gearless aluminum tray (that you complained about) that is individually anchored in every unit with heavy weights to reduce vibration and perfectly balance the disc player mechanism. And why didn't you display the Yamaha on an angle to show off the beautiful chassis with the black lacquer side panels? It's really something to see in person. imgur.com/a/XaOzxNb
You used Mozart, which has too many notes. Looks like you were able to count the same number of terabyte notes on both electronics using your golden "Mozart" note-counting ears. I will take the Sony (I already own that same model) because the Yamaha will have the "Yamaha Sound." 59 votes down on this video thus far. 59 people who lack a sense of humor.
Who cares about which player is better than the other, how about that spray on tan your using 😂 or is it the tanning cream, you look more orange than your jacket 😊
Think a little harder. Many SACD players with built in DAC’s, like the Yamaha CD-S2100 automatically convert DSD to PCM. This Yamaha does not. PS Audio’s Perfect Wave does it with 3 separate coax outputs.
Good god. First of all, DSD to PCM conversion is a digital process that is NOT done by a DAC. Second, the whole point is when you use a COAX output you are limited to CD-quality and you are no longer comparing DSD quality.@@scientificaudiophile
The correct way to compare DSD quality of these 2 players is to use the analog output of both. What you are doing with the Sony is reading DSD, converting and downsampling it to 44.1kHz PCM, outputting that via COAX to an external DAC, then testing the quality of the external DAC's analog audio output. That makes no sense when you're comparing SACD players.@@scientificaudiophile
Then this video is rather pointless, or you should've pointed that out in the video. There is basically no way to get DSD from the Sony, only downsampled PCM. LOL I see you deleted my comment about DSD to PCM conversion having nothing to do with a DAC.@@scientificaudiophile
FYI: Yamaha CD-S2100 in pure direct mode shuts down visual display.
Why do you need to see the player Display if everything is working as it should (W/O adding any Digital Noise to the Music,which the Led Display might add)
@@stephenassante4405 It's just an FYI. I specified in the video that the Sony doesn't ever have a display. Users should know that in pure direct mode, neither does the Yamaha.
A stunning piece of art, and you touch it…this guy sounds like he hates it, then he waxes enthusiastically about the Yamaha, gorgeous ….is he talking about women or an audio product??😮 later he says he’s been told by an Audiologist that they can’t measure his hearing it goes “beyond” want they can measure. I happen to know that an audiologist can measure up to 20khz and this guys “maybe” in his late thirties. The fact that he said that means he lost ALL credibility with me. NO ONE and I mean no one can hear frequencies that high. Googles your friend. I challenge him to post the company that did his hearing test. He’s full of p**p…….its the KISS principle. If he claims something so out of reality is say everything about his reviews.
Another question Ive got to ask, who the heck is Diane Bish and who cares? This guy sounds like he’s personally affronted by this, might it be that no one cares about Diane Bish except him? SACD manufacturers hear this! We want a Diane Bish SACD. Response: who’s Diane Bish? 😅
You cannot extract the SACD layer of a disc via coaxial or optical output. You could use the HDMI output and send the signal to a receiver capable of encoding SACD. Otherwise, SACD can only be sent out via the analog outputs (xlr or rca).
So the signal you would hear from the coaxial or optical output would be the redbook layer of the disc, not the sacd layer. Most SACD discs have both layers of audio.
What this man said ^^
S/PDIF can output max 24bit/192kHz (uncompressed 2 channel or compressed 5.1)... It's much higher than CD (16bit/44.1kHz) contrary to what Scientific Audiophile said in this video. But if I understand it correctly, SACD DSD is not licensed for that. So it wont play anyway... Optical (TOSLINK) is soooo outdated that there is no point of talking about it...
Sony UBP-X800M2 converts DSD from SACD over HDMI to 24bit/88kHz and 24bit/176.4kHz PCM that is still higher than CD Redbook specs. It can send out 2.8MHz DSD through HDMI too... but as you mentioned, one need a proper DAC, integrated amp or AVR that can read it.
The problem I have with such reviews is that they compare two different things: In this case Yamaha analogue stage with Sony digital transport.
@@tjblues01I would think the biggest elephant in the room is with a pair of balanced outputs or RCA, The Yamaha can't play 5.1 SACDs👍
It is quite possible that "Golden Idio....errr, ears" doesn't know that! maybe no golden brain?
A 10 min video and not even 45 seconds is spent talking about audio differences. Goodness sakes 🤦♂️
TH-cam is full of idiots like the author of this video
Thanks , after reading your comment. I only spent 60 seconds
The Troll the audio world needs.
If I had unlimited cash I would definitely go for the Yamaha, while realizing that I am buying it for the looks only. In the years I have auditioned and owned numerous CD players and DACs I am convinced there are hardly any differences between CD players and DACS in all price categories. If there are subtle differences they only show up in direct comparison. They are never obvious, you have to focus and doubt repeatedly. The current state of audio equipment is that for very little money you get excellent sound. Long gone are the days in where there were big differences in audio quality relating to price. Cheap headphones truly sounded like crap. Nowadays for 50 bucks you already can get a decent pair. And the digital media may be one of the most successful social equality achievements in the last decades. Great sound for very little cash.
That said, I still wouldn't go for the cheapest product. Looks matter. When I am browsing for classical music CD's on Discogs I would always pick the CD release with the prettiest CD cover/booklet. Even if it would cost me 10 euros more. No DG Galleria or Philips DUO CD's for me when I can get the original release in a more handsome package. Yes I am that shallow.
As a Sony enthusiast owner, I say that if you connect the sony's hdmi2 (audio only) to a converter (hdmi-to-IIS) and the IIS output of the converter to a DAC capable of managing a IIS format (I use a SMSL DO200), you will have all the bandwidth possible as the full DSD signal goes out only through HDMI. On the Sony the coax and spdif put out a DOP 64 signal (DSD over PCM 64 bit, not the best alll...). The audible result is Stunning....
I literally just commented on this. I just bought a bdp-bx37 this week for $8. These DSD pass through boxes finally render all these fancy players (practically) obsolete. I might sell my oppo, as it's slow as molasses reading discs. I also have been buying those scd-ce595 when I find them in the wild. I have bought 4 of them at under 20 each over the past several years, and habe been passing them out to friends and family. They don't have hdmi out, but they do have surround sound rca outs to listen to sacd surround sound in older receivers.
Which hdmi-to-IIS converter?
I moved recently from my Yamaha CD-S300 to the CD-S2100. Was a bit sceptical about the actual listening differences at first and wasn't sure if the placebo effect would be in full swing there but boy oh boy was I wrong and surprised. The smack of the female vocalist lips the tones of snares and cimbals the S300 just couldn't output, all suddenly hit me.
Invest in a high end cd player - it's definitely worth it, it will return you favor and repay you in spades.
Lol😂
@@Gary_M Another random youtube Lol-er has popped his head...🤡
CD-S2100 was on my wish-to-own list but due to finances I went with the CD-S1000, and just as you I moved from the CD-N301 (CD-S300 with streaming capabilities) and was pleasantly surprised with the additional clarity. Did many A-B tests on rock pop and jazz CDs I own. Enjoy yours!
I think I'm finally getting your sense of humor. I think.
Probably not. LOL
@phantasm1004 I completely agree. The funny thing is, I have more subscribers but I have no videos. Just be nice and helpful. I don't think his schtick will work.
The reason coaxial wouldn't work on the Yamaha with SACDs is because it is a native PCM format. The converter that can handle DSD is in the Yamaha which is of course is routed to the analog outputs.
Yessir. If Sony UDP had a dedicated CD / USB play shuffle button on its remote like OPPO did it would be the best audio darling for the decade coming.
Note: Nothing matches "S" Yamahas for music long listening sessions. Bass is absolutely underrated as the rest of the spectrum. The nearest next station is Accuphase. Enjoy!
Review is precise, also the fact that I can get Multichannel Audio from Sony using HDMI as transport.
Great content! I said the same thing when I saw Andrew rave about how amazing this theater system from Sony was... it's pretty much a surround system in a box (reminded me something from the 90's) but his exaggerated review made me think Sony is sending him checks or equipment.
I really enjoy Diane Bish's performance of Ligeti's Volumina for organ.
You only heard the sacd on the Yamaha, the sony universal player converts Dsd to pcm that's why you were only listening pcm sound through coaxial... its not real sacd sound... so OfCourse the high frequency was not as good on the sony, SACD through optical is a joke right? So in other words you were comparing apples to oranges, which is not "scientific" at all! You have a lot to learn and do your homework on technology and equipment to become an audiophile, your ability to hear high frequencies is obviously not enough.
get the Dsd versions of those sacds on a computer connect it to your rme through usb and then you can compare the sound of rme to the Yamaha.
You must be in Arizona, because damn you're dry. Haven't checked in for a bit, so was surprised to see more reality intruding in your analysis. I liked it and still love your deadpan delivery. Thanks.
Fantastic video. I wonder if any man made (or even alien) device can "hear" frequency ranges like you can!
Probably not. My 12 year old dog stopped responding to the dog whistle, but I still come running.
@@scientificaudiophile HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I have the Sony X800 and replaced my Yamaha DVD-S2500 SACD player with it. The Yamaha players sound good, but they are too glitchy and slow.
The Sony X800 player works best as a transport. Use a home theater receiver as your pre-amp, and connect the Sony via HDMI. I use my Yamaha TSR-7850 strictly as a network enabled pre-amp, and the Sony bitstreams DSD to it, feeding my Onkyo M-504 amp and B&W 684 S2 speakers. It sounds incredible. Plus, since the Yamaha is network enabled, I also use MusicCast to stream Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music, and Apple Music directly to the receiver’s DAC via WiFi.
Great idea, I do the same albeit with a twist, because I have connected My Panasonic BP-UB400 directly to a Nobsound Q3 DAC and from it to a Samsung HT-E320 as an amplifier.
I just yesterday returned my Yamaha CD s1000BL sacd player. I had it for three days and got so frustrated with. It was such a finicky player! There were some of my normal red book cd’s that it wouldn’t play. My Cambridge CXC v2 cd transport played them? I read that others have had the same issue? If you pay over a$1000 for a player the darn thing needs to work properly. I was not a fan of the Yamaha’s tray, as was described you are not given much room to properly seat the cd. It sounded really good, just a shame that it had issues reading cd’s!
I have the same sony, I like the sound so far (coaxial). I was thinking of using some receiver as a pre-amp (to use that HDMI out) but I will be listening in stereo for the time being. Anyway, there might be DAC"s with HDMI in .....
This was the best video I've seen. Its inspired me to get the yammy SACD. You and me both. I can hear minuscule details and notice the fine prints with Audio. I listened to the same song that was supposedly remastered the vanilla ice ninja rap compared to the original and I was blown away with the difference. My local had it refurbished for a decent price and I should of got it.... however I could also get a marantz SACD player instead...
Still love your views on and with, comedy and reality. Best, D.
The Yamaha CD-S2100 had been measured by an Australian hifi magazine and found to be inverting absolute polarity via both its XLR and RCA analogue outputs
Yes, this one, which says it’s not audible and not to bother, right?
www.excelia-hifi.cz/yamaha/test/yamaha-cd-s2100-australian-hifi_07_15.pdf
@scientificaudiophile i appreciate your taking the time to check and verify the claims in that review about Yamaha inverting absolute polarity on the S2100，and if you would to go deeper and check the reviews for the S3000 and S2000 from the same magazine, you will find that both these 2 other models invert polarity as well. This is a big issue as inverting absolute polarity is actually quite audible, unlike what that reviewer claimed, and it can have adverse effects on imaging delineation, dynamic contrast, and overall sense of musicality.
Will probably get a sony 4k UHD player soon
The Sony does skip a beat on some 4k discs, more than the OPPO 203, but the price is hard to beat.
@@scientificaudiophile rip the 203 is discontinued
The Bach is very well played - I do love music and also play violin. If you want to hear how fast it can be played, then check out final movements played by Nigel Kennedy. As for the SACD player not providing output on digital coax: this is down to the copyright protection on SACDs. Thank you for making this comparison.
Thanks for the information . I’ll be sure to check it out.
The GeerFab D.BOB along with the Sony opens it up to endless possibilities. The D.BOB is currently on sale for $799.
My Denon DVD/SACD/DVD-A/CD player sounds good to me.
This is not a test of two players. It’s a test of the Yamaha vs the RME DAC. Which is a $2,000 product.
The bitter queen has a new video! Keep the videos coming. They are a great source of entertainment. Do you do live streams?
I agree about the tray on the CD-S2100, it is way too shallow and I jammed mine on the first try. After that I learned to make sure the disc is centered in those little gray rubber nubbins I also wish the display was a more visible modern type. I really don't care about SACD, I just wanted a player to match my integrated amp. I only have a couple of samplers in SACD and at my age my brain and ears aren't all that picky. Where I did notice a difference was playing regular CDs on the Yamaha compared to my almost thirteen year old Panasonic BluRay player that only cost $160 back then. That was noticeable to me, but if I only had the old unit I could survive just fine.
Okay, I didn't know anything about you until yesterday and then I watched "Calling out the reviewers" which was hilarious; "congratulations mom for doing what every other old person has ever done". A regular jokester.
No coax or optical for the Yamaha I think because of the copy protection for SACDs. Not sure why the Sony allows it though. I wonder if the Sony converts the DSD to standard PCM?
Yes it does. you can select two channel stereo audio and also multichannel audio from DSD and you can covert it to LPCM and PCM (or it does automatically) when your connected device does not support DSD format. (according to manual. I have the sony but not a receiver with or other device with HDMI input for audio (yet).
It's Moat-zart, you philistine. And that Hilary Hahn SACD is great, at least my pal who told me to buy it says it is and he owns a cello so must therefore be right.
Also nobody buys wine in bottles any more. Boxes are much better and easier to stack.
Stacking wines is tight.
You make a fair point.
I would like to offer a counterpoint though.
You got a 50/50 shot of the Yamaha outlasting 10 Soni*, and when you factor in inflation for each replacement Sony the Yamaha starts to look like a bargain. Your grandchildren's friends will all marvel at the sound it makes when they bounce their brass renminbi coins off of it.
*The plural of Sony.
With my love of SACD's and DVD-Audio disks, set up menus can be confusing on my players
SA, Use a Cambrige AXC 35 as transport for SACD. Could not be happier. Paul, PS Audio, says your dac is a large part of cd playback. Best, D.
This gentleman with ‘Golden Ears’ claims that when tested by an Audiologist his hearing exceeded the limits of the Audiologist’s test equipment. Hearing tests only go up to 8Khz.
Exactly right!
In coaxial o spdif from Sony to RME , you don't play SACD. you compare CD layer of the SACD by mecchanic Sony +dac RME with Yamaha SACD.
One of only a few individuals who can not only hear, but also apeak fluent dolphin.
Glad I kept my OPPO BDP-83... I use the HDMI output with a digital breakout box to send that DSD/SACD signal to my Denafrips DAC... And it has a display!
Thats it !
@Michael Wright: That’s interesting. I have the BDP-103 (the Blu-Ray player). I should try your scheme at some point.
The Hillary Hahn line was brilliant!
how do you know for sure that the sony was playing the SACD layer, most sacds will also play in traditional cd player on the regular cd layer
You know that because Sony tells which format it's using. for ex. 2.8 MHz 1 bit...
You only talk about high edge frequencies, but what about soundstage transparency details dynamics speed separation and so much more that make the audiophile sound? What about the image, the placement of the musicians in front of you? microdetails of the midrange frequencies?
Where is the scientific part?
as you may not know this is the Scientific Audiophile channel. So the science comes before the audiophile.
The Sony doesn’t have analog outputs just HDMI so if your integrated doesn’t have HDMI then it’s useless.
I was hoping for some charts comparing the output between the two sources, I don't doubt there's minimal difference between the two but it'd be pretty interesting to see what actually changed (or didn't)
The problem with measurements is that they don't come close to my level of hearing. So even if they measurements don't hear a difference, it doesn't mean I won't.
@@scientificaudiophile I just started watching your videos, I hadn't yet realized how powerful your golden ears are - I hope you demagnetized your CDs before testing them
@@RRFTube I demagnetize them twice before listening and once during listening.
great review I was just in the middle of considering whether to buy this Sony UBP-X800M2 or not and feared that thing can't be too good due to its mass consumer-target construction...I was litterally yesterday at the shop to check its finishing. Very helpful review for me.
This is not a test, this is a complete misunderstanding of how these devices work.
You put in discs and they play them. That’s how I thought these devices worked.
Remember boys and girls it’s never too late to see a dentist.
Another great review.. But.. the Yamaha is silver and the Sony looks like a massive chocolate sandwich.. now a massive chocolate sandwich may sound lovely and my kids would prefer it over a silver box, but they are 6 and 8, that's Thier age not audiophile rating..
Luckily I do have an RME FS2 dac. And makes such a musical sound when I hit the children with it, well they need to pay more attention when critical listening, even if Thier crappy pop music doesn't roll off at 60khz..
Thanks for the review, and my take on this is that the kids can buy the sandwich, when they start earning money,
🤣
🤣 ROFL -- thanks Dude for the great video! I seriously envy you for your golden ears.
Cheers, keep em coming!
I have that same Chicago Brahms album on vinyl.
It's better on vinyl!
The irony is the Yamaha has a Sony Transport so save your 2700 dollars
I have a similar situation with my X800 and my (somewhat cheaper than the Yamaha) Denon dcd 1600. I honestly can't tell the difference. Do you know why my X800 will play SACDs through my Chord Qutest, but my Denon won't?
Is your Denon set to send PCM?
Is that the stereo or multi setting? Because it is set to stereo. I didn't even realise that this setting existed. It plays ordinary CDs OK. but with an SACD, the frequency light on the Qutest (from the coax digital input on the Denon) immediately goes out and all sound ceases.
Incidentally, when I switch from the Qutest input to the line input to my amp direct from the Denon, the volume is considerably louder.
Fabulous stuff from you by the way.
After reading this forum message from George P it does seem to be a PCM issue: “After a number of calls to Tech Support and a few emails to Tech Support, Denon has now confirmed that when using the analog output, the DCD-1600NE does not convert the DSD layer of an SACD to PCM!”
forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/denon-dcd-1600ne-sacd-cd-player.746187/page-2
Audiologist humor is best left for the deaf.
Glad to see some MOZE-ART. MAYBE TRY SOME MOET-ZART.
What's this Moe's Art thing he keeps speaking of? Also, you can't say you have golden ears because Steve Guttenberg has trademarked those words. He's seventy four years old, but can still hear the differences between cables. It's quite astounding.
Plus, Steve likes an occasional ripple.
There is a massive shortage of Yamaha players in the UK .. I was penning a 1000 but not a chance ..
You should've hooked the Sony into the DAC input of the Yamaha so they would be using the same DAC to make things more equal. Not that it would have changed much.
DACS are for people that don't understand how digital works. Essentially it's ones and zeros. If you alter the code it just won't play. Up until recent times we used discs to hold important code because it was accurate stable and cannot be altered. The only difference is the equalization that most companies use to get different sounds from their products. Marantz and Denon are the same company and they tune Denon for clinical listening. Marantz is tuned for warmth. I've done engineering at multiple companies and that's the secret sauce to you to pay more.
Not so funny as other videos. In reality the sound quality difference is huge. to few funny twists.
Are you saying that the Sony UBP-X800M2 outputs DSD signals (SACD LAYER) on either the Sony player's digital outs that you can then feed your RME DAC and decode DSD ? That would be a shocker.
What equipment was used that can’t hear as high as your golden ears? Something from 1800s? 😆
It took him 10 minutes
10 minutes before he had to go say some bs like that
Opp wondering if he heard me
Greetings, what is your opinion of Michael Rabin the violinist.
Oh. This is from 2 yrs ago. You started recording in the mid -afternoon. Your recent videos are shot later. 😅
Can’t believe you dissed Hilary Hahn like that
I know right ? But we are each entitled to our own opinion... and that is a good thing !!!
@@ptg01 I was really shocked at what he said so at the time I felt I needed to say something in the comments.
Really like to see you banging it with OCD Mikey and Jay's Audio.
I wish I could subscribe to this channel 10 times
I have the Marantz SACD30n and it is an outstanding SACD player (displays the metadata) in addition to streamer... Check it out !
$3K is overpriced
@@JohnSmith-zl8rz It is BUILT like a tank, Made in Japan, have it for ~3+ years now with ZERO issues.... I've seen them at $2K now, still pricey but it's my forever SACD Player / Streamer !
@@ptg01 $2K used, right? I wish have the money for the SA-10 or Ruby.
I would say that Yamaha CD-S2100 is for someone who already has $3000+ amplifier and $6000+ speakers.
Bro why do you fling and throw the cds onto the disc tray? 🤣
Are you seriously saying there was no discernible difference in sound quality between the players other than a slightly more extended bass with the Yamaha ?
Yes. You should do a blind A/B test yourself and see what you conclude.
Ok that's fine. I just wanted to confirm that that was what you were saying. Presumably you were testing both players through their rca outputs in a reasonably resolving system ?
@scientificaudiophile I see now why the sony and yamaha produced similar sound quality. It was because you were only using the sony as a transport as it was fed to the rme dac and then balanced outputs from this into your yamaha amplifier. The result is therefore not so surprising to me.
I got 40 cd players and I dont have the hearing but they all sound differnt
Must be your 40 different speakers.
"MOts-art" - Long O, hard T, S, ... "art" - Z never happens. No display is a deal breaker.
You lost me with the wine. What arrogance.
Nice video! I’m curious about one detail. How you connect the Sony to the Rme? Through coaxial and from coaxial you stream a dsd stream to the rme ? I have the same Sony player and the unique way to transmit to the dac the dsd from the sacd is to use an hdmi to i2s adapter . Are you using the same solution to connect the Sony and the rme dac or another solution ?
Used coax
@@scientificaudiophile so, the rme received via coax from the Sony a pcm stream of 24bit/48khz( or more) or a dsd 64 stream ? Thanks
@@lucabattanta9246 LPCM 2ch(-48kHz/-24bit)
SACD players will not output any DSD digital stream on SPDIF (Coax or Toslink).. Just I2S but that's a bit of a can of worms in making sure you have the right DSD capable DAC (apparently, I2S implementation is wild wild west).
@Brett Bates Great point.... Ye, t two channel SACD players still don't output digital signals out of Coax and Optical.. so silly..
3k for a Sacd player to listen to violins and Cello's haha .
Just because you don't/can't appreciate violin or cello music doesn't mean others can't. Stick with the boomboxes.
Hi there, just wondering how do you connect the X800 to the AD-2 DAC? If I'm not mistaken the AD-2 doesn't have HDMI or I2s input. Thanks.
You don't need an HDMI I²S coonection for SACDs, it's just 24/96 which is usually supported by COAX as well as optical cables. The I²S is only needed for DSD.
howz the sound compare,,,, sony has hdmi out,,, so how much more money
this is a weird comparison ... talk about apples to oranges...
if you're going to use an external DAC then the yamaha is obviously not the right choice , why would you pay so much $ for such a substantial component with high quality internal dac and analogue circuitry simply to try and bylass it all with the digital out?
if you really heard any difference, it wasnt between the two players - it was the difference between your RME DAC and the Yamaha internal DAC...
Criticizes Hillary Hahn, but can’t properly pronounce Mozart. As a snob, I feel that invalidates any opinion he could offer.
So you're saying that your hearing is as good as that of my dog's??
Far better.
Der Vergleich hinkt, da zwei völlig unterschiedliche DACs genutzt wurden.
Yes, from the description of his test setting he basically tested the ESS9016 and it's implementation in the Yamaha against the ESS9028Q2M (if your RME is the 2021 version) and it's implementation in the RME, which doesn't have much to do with the SONY. A solution to avoid this would've been to connect the Sony (optical or coax) to the input ports of the Yamaha and test both with the Yamaha's DAC. But then again, it would have been again mostly a test of the DAC and less of the DIGITAL player (because it's digital, right ... *triggerwarning* ;-P).
So, by having two different DAC chips in the chain, it actually would've been very surprising NOT to hear a difference ... (I'm far from having golden ears, but still could hear the difference between my old Yamaha BluRay player's DAC and my integrated amp's DAC, so these things can sound different).
Temperature to side so I can see him because I can see it from this profile
So there's no point in listening to anything else but Dianne Bish? Guess I'll sell my CD and record collection. Wish I'd known that before spending all that money. I do have to say that I find your "I am the God of all audio" attitude very annoying.
You can probably hear the deer whistles on cars (LOL).
99.9% of people can't tell the difference between 320 kbps and 16-bit 44.1 kHz lol. Double blind testing shows this.
Not $3000 worth.
Cheap used Oppo.... Now thatz funny.
I have the sony. 700 and 800. I hate them both. But especially the 700 for its jitter drop outs and instability.
Maybe the Revon or Pioneer.....
Revon, same guts as Oppo!
When dog whistle used a mile away you scream.
Very true!
Sabre DAC=nails on a blackboard.
You need better speakers !
Much like yourself, I too have ultra-sonic hearing, and I can assure you there is no audible difference between the stock earbuds that come with an off the shelf smartphone and, oh lets say, a Hifiman Susvara.
Thats just $6000 worth of audiophile snake oil.
Thank you for your disservice to our community!
Just knowing about the smooth treble and slightly micro-extended bass of the Yamaha that only you can hear makes the Sony completely worthless to me.
Apples to apples? Not really. The Sony at $300.00 looks overpriced and I am willing to wager that my Pioneer Elite DV-47ai that I use to play sacd/cd will outperform it. It's built considerably better in every respect with three 192khz/24-bit Burr Brown audio dacs. I think I paid twenty-thirty bucks for it used with a nice remote. It's like you compared a Honda Civic to a Porsche 911 to go grocery shopping and see which was better at it. Fully exploit the capabilities of the Yamaha in a full range or near full range system that will do it justice and then talk about dynamics, noise levels, etc. Oh, and I own a 2100 also, and an even much better player than that. Of its many design features, of note is the discrete single-stage I/V (current to voltage) conversion instead of cheap chips, screwed down power supply connections reducing resistance, that gearless aluminum tray (that you complained about) that is individually anchored in every unit with heavy weights to reduce vibration and perfectly balance the disc player mechanism. And why didn't you display the Yamaha on an angle to show off the beautiful chassis with the black lacquer side panels? It's really something to see in person. imgur.com/a/XaOzxNb
Moe's Art? IS this for real?
You used Mozart, which has too many notes. Looks like you were able to count the same number of terabyte notes on both electronics using your golden "Mozart" note-counting ears. I will take the Sony (I already own that same model) because the Yamaha will have the "Yamaha Sound."
59 votes down on this video thus far. 59 people who lack a sense of humor.
Double-blind test or this is pointless.
I thought hahn was untouchable.
Who cares about which player is better than the other, how about that spray on tan your using 😂 or is it the tanning cream, you look more orange than your jacket 😊
Orange is my color.
Wowee! Eyes!
Trying to get DSD using COAX digital output. Jeezus man, and you call yourself "Scientific Audiophile".
Think a little harder. Many SACD players with built in DAC’s, like the Yamaha CD-S2100 automatically convert DSD to PCM. This Yamaha does not. PS Audio’s Perfect Wave does it with 3 separate coax outputs.
Good god. First of all, DSD to PCM conversion is a digital process that is NOT done by a DAC. Second, the whole point is when you use a COAX output you are limited to CD-quality and you are no longer comparing DSD quality.@@scientificaudiophile
The correct way to compare DSD quality of these 2 players is to use the analog output of both. What you are doing with the Sony is reading DSD, converting and downsampling it to 44.1kHz PCM, outputting that via COAX to an external DAC, then testing the quality of the external DAC's analog audio output. That makes no sense when you're comparing SACD players.@@scientificaudiophile
You should know the Sony has no analog output.
Then this video is rather pointless, or you should've pointed that out in the video. There is basically no way to get DSD from the Sony, only downsampled PCM. LOL I see you deleted my comment about DSD to PCM conversion having nothing to do with a DAC.@@scientificaudiophile
To me, an SACD player without multichannel output is fairly pointless.
You need to love high end audio more.