The whole reaction is too dang long! So it'll be divided in 2 parts, with part 2 comming tomorrow for youtube algorithm purposes! So do you agree with the points presented so far? I certainly have my takes!
This ties into that conversation you had with Happy. If everyone has these really strong mitigation tools, and healers themselves have an excess of tools, the idea is that you want to heal as little as possible. A big talking point about FFXIV compared to other MMOs is that “you need to do damage as a healer” but that’s not the whole story. For a large portion of the fight, you don’t *need* to heal, since damage isn’t always coming out, and when it does it’s often mitigated by tanks and DPS. So for the most part you’re doing damage just so you aren’t sitting around doing nothing. If that’s where SE wants healer to be, a damage dealer that keeps the party alive, then they’re not making it very fun with the very simple damage rotations. For comparison, tanks are essentially melee DPS with simpler rotations, but more responsibility. I feel like healers could benefit by taking more queues from casters. Because each caster has their own identity, their own gameplay feel. Healers have… a _little_ bit of that, but they really blend together. Same filler spell, same dot, maybe 1 or two other damage cooldowns. I don’t think you need to have insanely complicated rotations, and tanks certainly could use some improvements, but I think that’s the step to take with improving how healers feel. That being said, I definitely think this problem is exacerbated by Rinon being a really good player. I still find healing engaging and fun, but I won’t say it can’t improve at all.
Yeah. The frustrating thing is when you've got your nuts sorted out, but your cohealer, or tank, or a dps forgot a mit like addle to something, and now ppl die to raidwides. Otherwise, reducing gcd heals to zero is where I find my fun.
Party mitigations by tanks and dps needs to be significantly nerfed. Healer abilities need to be changed around. We need to have heals that are really strong but also expensive on MP. Self heals needs to be mitigated for Tanks and DPS. Tanks should not be able to Shield AND Heal parties as well. The issue with healing is two parts, the jobs are boring while Tanks and DPS have received a lot of utilities that have reduced the importance of a healer. I have done several blind week 1 clears and to push DPS my group abused all of the utilities Tanks and DPS offered just so me and my co-healer can DPS more and heal less.
@@sunrah27 While I agree where you coming from, but I disagree where your conclusion ends. I think split some responsibility of mitigation is definitely the right call to encourage more people to play healers, and it also make healer have slightly less responsibility even though they are still a critical role for majority of the content. And healer have been tasked to push dps ever since the start, especially in week 1 situation where single bits of more damage is important, more in the older days and less so in 7.0 due to the strength of picto and related change to not nerf picto. The real problem in the end, is just that healer needs slightly complicated dps rotation.
@@lunesaveter8521 thats why they said tank & dps utility should be nerfed, not taken away. each role should feel like they are there for a reason, providing something unique but when you give other roles super strong buttons that take away from the healer role too much, its a problem. healers will never have a proper damage rotation, let alone complicated. they need to be able to give healing whenever its needed. imagine that you need crazy heals during 2min. they should have a few more interesting damage buttons, yes, but this also comes down to fight design, essentially allowing healers to damage nonstop. could easily pare down their support kit or like they said increase the mana cost instead of giving healers majority mana-free buttons.
Jobs should be fun. It's the means by which we experience the game. Dungeons, the MSQ and regular trials are not fun. It's boring after the first time and tedious after the third. The gameplay in XIV is absolutely atrocious the way jobs are. And healing outside of current raids is mind-numbingly boring.
I just want more variety. Give SCH back the second DoT at least, make either SGE, WHM or a new healer have a full rotation, SGE seems like the best fit though since Kardia, so there's at least one option for people that want that and one for people that don't, and they all feel different. I'm much more concerned with the jobs feeling different personally, so that when you don't need to heal, you actually have options for stuff to do and all 4 aren't just 1 button spam and a DoT.
I started FFXIV during Endwalker, a couple months before 6.2. I'd consider myself pretty casual in comparison to someone like Rinon, and I honestly have stopped playing healer out of boredom unless new content drops. Runs become either so smooth, I forget to use my dot out numbness, or I'm dragging the entire group to the finish line. There are occasions where I get that happy medium, but they're too rare for me to consider actually picking up healing during the months in between new content drops. I'd wouldn't heal if they brought something like cleric stance back, but some complexity feels needed. You can even keep some in the state they are now, while making others more complex. Look at magical ranged dps. You got the super simple Summoner, the intermediates Red Mage and Pictomancer, and the more complex Black Mage. Having healers divided similarly might help because right now, I'm just not engaged with healing.
I'm kind of similar. I started in 6.0 and chose healer because Scholar looked cool and healing in WoW was fun. And it was fun in FFXIV too, while I was still bad at it, and doing low level content. The Bahamut raid series was my favorite for this because without the crazy suite of oGCD heals we have these days, I was regularly using manual heals. Sometimes just as much as attacks. Keeping a dot up was a challenge back then, and learning fights was a fresh struggle. I didn't even mind the one button rotation since I just came off of Classic WoW as a Mage player. Then when I actually got to endgame, I stopped having as much fun. I didn't even realize that I didn't want to play healer until I wanted to do a P9S group, and the Shield healer slot was already taken. So I joined as Black Mage, and had a lot more fun.
My opinion has always been that dps should typically contribute to resource production. Blood for the blood lily, and Sage’s Kardia are good starts that should be pushed further. Using Dot uptime to charge Faerie Gauge, or Pneuma being charged by Dosis casts. Though there’s a difference between being rewarded for dps and being punished by the lack thereof. Keep the GCD heals, and mits. Add a dps price for oGCD heals as a simple start.
I generally agree, though in a different way. I think that the point of healing resources should be to optimize healing and reduce DPS downtime. That way, the mechanic is reciprocal and requires more consideration on the part of the player. For example, imagine if every GCD on WHM charged blood lily, but Misery took the same time to cast as a PCT drawing (it would do enough damage to still refund the GCDs it took to charge it of course). Suddenly, the player is having to decide when to cash out their blood lily to make room for later healing. It's not a fire-and-forget move. It's also simple and forgiving enough to cater to casual players, while giving more experienced players more to do and consider.
as I said on that video above, If I could fish for more critical shields as scholar, in more ways, that would be way more fun and engaging, instead of having to press a button every 180seconds that increases the damage on a target instead.
One of the things RInon doesn't really cover is the reason healers were made so much easier was there was a fairly heavy healer shortage, so they tried to make it more appealing. They added tank achievement rewards to make tanking more inviting, and they made healing easier. There still is a healer and tank shortage in queue, but it was much worse back then. I feel they over tuned it and now we have the same problem(not prevalent as it was) but for the opposite reasons(a lot of healer mains I know don't heal any more because it is "boring") My experience as a healer has been similar to Rinon, a little different because I've been playing longer, and I mostly agree. I actually currently have issues maintaining my dot because the dps is so simple I just sorta zone out and forget to refresh the dot. You will find that most of the healers have a more strict mana pool, however not to a point were it really feels like you actually have that restriction but you might "get low" on mana if you aren't using your tools properly(ie on sage if you aren't using addersgall becasue say for example your party isn't taking enough damage to really feel the need to spend them you will burn out on mp) IO personally feel that astrologian is the most engaging healer currently with sch being more engaging but sage flowing better and whm just kinda being strong but feeling meh(just my opinion I've never really enjoyed playing pure healers outside of swtor which all the healers felt interesting and unique to me)
As a tank main, all I can say is good healer players are out of touch at their own tower and they forgot that the average healer literally suck at doing what you describe. Have you all tried pugging with people while queueing as a different role as your main? You will realise the majority of people can't even do the very basic of esuna which is an instant cast now. This is why SQEX has troubles in balancing jobs. Do they balance to cater the 1-5% of the player base? Or do they ignore and cater to the rest of 90% player base that just want to login do daily/weekly and log out?
I don’t understand why there’s so much angst against healers wanting more engagement. When tanks were boring as hell and people asked for a bit more engagement, nobody called them privileged or to get out of their “tower”. In fact, it’s gotten MUCH better for tanks and Dawntrail. I think it’s only fair that since tanks (including dps) are getting new toys from healers, I think it would be fair if healers also get toys from both tanks and dps. If healers are struggling to survive then give them more defensive capabilities. Scholar should be able to shield themselves enough to eat a damn tank buster but they can’t. Each healer class could use at least 1 or 2 more dps buttons to add to their rotation because the monotonous 111112111111 is gruesome. There’s simply not enough incoming damage to allow this type of combat.
@@cutejustice As someone who plays all roles a lot, what the original poster is getting at is just that most healers are bad. Its Far easier for me to get a purple parse on a healer( in both damage and healing) then it is for me to do the same on a dps The number of healers that queue into duties that have trouble keeping heals going as is is crazy considering how op their kit is. For clarity i'm in agreement that the kit is boring, and that i think there should be more interesting damage in the kit, but if square makes healing harder i would share concerns that a huge number of healers will be unable to keep up. The vast majority of players either don't attempt savage, or don't complete it. And the worse your players are, the more damage you take and the worse your healer is at using their tools correctly. I really noticed this in p7 for the first time, if you play roles other then healer long enough in PF, you realize that PF healers are really really bad. Like the gap is so much bigger then any other role between good healers and bad healers, that even if i had 100 parsed in my dps it would contribute less additional damage over the average then a green/blue healer (and i could get purple often enough). These same healers often blow all their tools on small amounts of damage, having none left when they are actually needed. Instead of getting better, they swap roles if healing gets more complex. This is what makes it hard for square, I agree healers need more buttons for damage, but its going to be a tightrope to walk when half of the player base don't manage either the 11112 rotation or to provide enough healing with the overabundance of tools they already have
@@cutejustice My personal hope would be that they make 1-2 "simple" healers and 1-2 "complex" healers let the complex healers provide more benefits for playing them correctly, but not so much to invalidate the "simple" healers, then let people self-select to their preference
@@cutejustice honestly on healer i would be happy if all they gave us is 1 or 2 more dps buttons, maybe one with a 15-20s cd and one that is a combo action with the main attack.
I really don't feel any lack in White Mage game play. I'm not doing any extreme content I can't unsync power through as Gunbreaker. And I felt plenty challenged in Dawntrail normal content. I don't want more buttons on my bars, I am fine with casting Glare a lot and watching the tells because I have attention issues. I'm not bored, I'm happy to have the extra bits of time needed to watch mechanics.
I'm really surprised that people associate "engaging gameplay" with "more buttons and more difficulty". Adding synergies to existing kits takes away nothing from casual to mid core players and adds an additional avenue of tinkering for people who want to really get the most out of their jobs. Like imagine a world in which having shields broken as sage actually gave you more damage. The job doesn't become more complicated, but it does now have a reward for a well placed mit. Things like that don't add to the kit for people who don't care. And why does doing difficult content automatically mean the take is elitist? That part never made sense to me. It seems like folks are jumping immediately to "this person wants double the buttons", but my takeaway is "this person wants the buttons we have to matter"
Yeah... it was wild reading what some of the chatters had to say about things. Someone said "So Rinon wants healing to always feel chaotic and like everything is falling apart." I don't understand how people could be so oblivious to what's being said in a video they're literally watching before their eyes. Something doesn't have to be hard to be fun, people, we're just looking for a little bit more to add some folds to our brains.
Agreed. If anything, I think healer kits are unnecessarily bloated atm compared to their complexity. It's a lot of buttons to do the same basic functions with very little deviation. The amount of similar oGCD buttons healers have atm is astounding. The current differences feel more like gimmicks than anything else. This whole thing would be solved by just better job design I feel. Improve how healing functions and how engaging it is to actually press my healing buttons, and we're good.
@@pstmdrn_werewolf I think the issue is a fear that adding that bit more will also mean adding to the difficulty of encounters to account for the top 1% or 10% (ab)using the extra bit to its full capacity. That is, what the elite see as making it more engaging just about 100% mandates also making things more difficult, or else it's going to do nothing to appease the people complaining about being bored. I'm not sure how you can A make things more complex/engaging, B, keep things manageable for the average player, and C avoid this making content easier. I feel like you can probably pick 2 of the three options, not all three.
@@williamknudson8414 that's a reasonable fear, but realistically speaking healers are over-equipped for most content. For hardcore players, anything that shows up in a roulette or EX is fairly routine, and I think that even if they want harder content *they don't want it there*. They want it at the top end, which most people don't end up seeing. Increasing the difficulty of content across the board doesn't make a lot of sense if the fear is the tastes of the hardcore players, because the odds that hardcore players want ALL content to be hardcore is very low. I don't know that I consider myself hardcore, but I think i qualify in most people's opinions. I don't want everyday content to be difficult, but I would like my job in difficult content to be more interesting. Because at the end of the day, it's true that job difficulty and encounter design will always be linked. But I also think its true that casual content is casual because it does not punish you as harshly for mistakes. If healers as a whole get more capable and fights get more difficult as a result, that could be a problem. But the changes to healer would need to be MASSIVE to see that all the way down to leveling, AR, and Normal Raid roulettes, because each of those are designed in a way where you don't need to be perfect to complete the content (this may be hyperbole, but in my mind in order for current casual to midcore content to see a serious spike in difficulty, casual to midcore players would need to have a kit that puts them on par with current hardcore players without having to optimize every single aspect of their rotation).
@@williamknudson8414 I truly do not believe it would make anything more difficult for the majority of the player base. I've done so many dungeons with healers that don't use a single damage ability. I've asked a scholar to use broil before and they literally said no, extending the length of the dungeon and only using healing spells. How is that making things more complex for the normal player? Even if you consider someone slightly above average who is pretty decent at their job but doesn't do extremes or savage surely knows how to optimize their healing in, say, an alliance roulette, in which case they're mostly using glare/broil etc anyways, and will have all the more time to learn whatever new abilities they are given without having a mental breakdown.
30:00 those cooldown orders matter more in ultimates and week 1 savages and the answer for what your order should be for healer tools is dependent on the timeline of the specific fight and getting more usages or making sure cooldowns cover a particularly hard heal/mitigation check. Generally rule of thumb though, put shields on hard hitting single attacks and mitigation cooldowns on damage overtime or multi hit attacks.
I hope people dont paint Rinon as a pessimistic person here- Rinon actually makes a very salient critique of Healers. In general, Rinon is quite reasonable when it comes to healer talk imo
As much as I agree with Rinon's opinion, I think as a whole this has happened to all jobs in FF14 from after Stormblood onwards, it just feels more obvious on healers, as someone who use to play DPS roles, i find them extremely dull nowadays as a lot of the mini optimizations you can do have been removed, as soon as you have cleaned up a mechanic there isn't much to really think about after that unless you switch to an uptime strat from w1 early blind strat. Since i've mained healer for expansion and a bit, i still find healer enjoyable but it gets more dull than the other roles as soon as it goes on farm and people ain't dead or being hit by random stuff, the oGCD are so strong from both healers and to a point, the rest of the group you can normally recovery or cheese mechanics very easily that you rarely if ever GCD heal. i'd like to see bosses use more minor attacks to force oGCDs so your choices are thinner or you need to GCD heal even in farm, i don't think a boss should do 2 - 5 tank busters for a whole fight, it ends up being kitchen skins/invuls and nothing else really, i think it would make tank and healer synergies more engaging if you need to be constancy prepared. i also really agree with his comments about blood lily, i don't think all healers should get cast 3 heals do big damage ability, but having heals help you do damage or maybe successful esuna'ing debuffs gives buffs to allies could be some cool ideas, right now you end up finding how little GCD heals you can use (like going shieldless on sge/sch) to fit more broil casts or your spending your resources on damage instead of supporting like with spirit drain.
Personally, I love playing White Mage and don't find it boring at all. I think part of that is because I don't really feel a lot of "engagement" with rotations to begin with. I play XIV a lot. I got all jobs to 90, working them to 100 now, and have run around 8,000 dungeons. Pressing the same button combos all the time always gets boring for me at some point. But I like WHM specifically because there's no rotation. It's all reaction based. And the new content has been a lot more fun for healing because the bosses are trickier, there's more raidwides from mobs, there's just more to have to react to. I enjoyed playing healer in past content, but DT has been on point for normal content! I love being able to just glare spam so I can focus entirely on the mechanics and my party. Cause THAT'S where the fun is to me. The mechanics are WAY more engaging than the rotation I've done the same way in every duty. There are some jobs like DNC that have a proc-based rotation, but it's still just following the same route with different cut off points. Which is fine, I just don't find it very engaging personally. I would much prefer a simpler rotation with more engaging duties. All that said, I think variety is something XIV does best, so maybe having having one "simple" healer and one "engaging" healer job would work. There are two regen healers and two shield healers, keep WHM as the simple one and make AST more engaging. They already have a great baseline for that. Same for Scholar and Sage. I think this might be a good solution, but I know it's easier said than done. Anyway, just my two cents. This is how I feel as a WHM main of 5 years.
Also on the "it doesn't matter which tool u use for healing" point. Basically the only time i've heard my healers in my static actually legitimately plan what gets used when, was in "On content ultimate fights" So only when doing the absolute hardest content in the game, in the patch that it came out, did they actually care, and they still hardly ever had to use a GCD to heal.
Scholar "avoids" that a bit with some of their skills locking them out of others, but it basically turns into using one set on one pull and the other set on the next pull.
@ brother did u read my initial comment at all? I literally said that my healers were saying they don’t have to plan for anything outside of on content ultimates. I was talking about the furthest possible thing from dungeon pulls…
I'm personally fine with healing and do it regularly. For healers there are two halves to encounters, dealing with the encounter itself and dealing with the party. That's why I enjoy it more than other roles and what I feel is missing from much of the current healer conversation. It's that split focus where healer engagement happens and where situations are way less scripted.
That’s not missing out of the conversation at all. Because of the scripted nature of the fights, you already know what’s coming so can already preplan your healing mits. The issue happens during the execution. There’s barely much to keep you occupied. It would be nice if healers had more party buffs or anything they can use as a throwaway just to keep some form of engagement but all they have is 1 dot, 1 damage on loop. If this existed, it wouldn’t really change much of the game. Casual healers today can’t press 1 button every single 120 seconds so if these other buttons existed it would’ve been ignored by them but at least it gives other healers something to do.
@@cutejustice This happens in statics, but a lot less in PF. One component to this discussion is that the gap between healing a decent party, and a good party is huge. And the gap between a bad party and a decent one is even larger The thing you are describing happens in statics or pfs of good players. In the decent parties, you can make up the difference depending on your skill as a healer. In a bad party, you don't have enough tools at all. The issue is most pfs are only decent, and most healers are not good enough to fill that difference. Even in a bad statics people make the same mistakes a lot, so you can predict that but in PF you get a new group all the time. So rinon here is suffering from 2x "skill privilege" things are easier for him then average healers, and those he plays with take less avoidable damage making the job even easier. Does not make the problem any less real, but it does make the solution much more difficult. (a few extra engagement buttons with mild impact is the easiest thing they could add, but i don't think people would be happy with that)
Personally, while I do enjoy healer as it is right now, thats really only because I play it so infrequently, I don't think they are in a very good place. This isn't a "I'm so good at them thing" either I've never even brought a healer to ex/savage, I do those on tank and DPS. To me all the healers feel basically the same, with only fairly minor differences, mainly in how you move of all things. Healing buttons tend to all generally be sortable into "Single target" or "AoE", and thats really it. Sure some have slightly more situational use but they can often still fit in interchangeably with most other heals and in 90% of the game it really does not what heal you use for what. The part of the kit I spend most of my time interacting with, the DPS part, feels entirely identical for every healer. It's clear in DT they were trying to differentiate them at a little, but in baby steps so small they barely moved. I basically agree with Rinon 100% specialty on the part that healing and DPS kits should have some interactions, as WHM is currently one of my favorites specifically due to how lilies interact with the DPS kit. I also want to point out that after a quick glance at the comments most of the arguments against his video fall into two category's: "But I like healer as it is now" and/or "Rinons is wrong because they are good at the game". To address the first point, I don't understand why people get stuck on this, everyone can win here, there are multiple classes in this game and if they were to do a sweeping rework to healers it would simply make sense to leave one or two healers with a playstyle similar to what they have right now. Part of the complaints are specifically about how healers all feel the same, differentiating doesn't mean abandoning the current style, but add different styles to suit different taste, we can all get what we want here. To address the second point if you argument is "Your opinion isn't valid because you are good at the game" you should really stop and take a long hard think about how bad of a argument that is. How can anyone claim, that something should get boring as you get good at it, thats terrible design. Look fatigue is fatigue but thats not at all what this is, if that's your claim here you didn't watch the video and just assumed most of the points. If you make a game that can only be fun if you're bad at it, you'll quickly find all of you most dedicated players leaving.... which is what seems to be happening in the high end right now. This "Casual Vs hardcore" bull is so infuriating to me, we all play the same game. I want healers to be more interactive, and more interesting in all scenarios, not just when things are going wrong, or for players who haven't yet learned how to play well. This doesn't mean that we need to abandon the current style, or make things "More harder" just that I should have choices to make that matter, even when things are going well.
As a tank main, I find that mits are WAY too strong at the moment. Between shields, self-sustain, damage reductions, there are few situations that we can't handle by ourselves. War can solo most dungeons on release. As a PLD I have 3 sources of shield, 5 sources of damage mitigation, 2 sources of healing as part of optimal play, as well the ability to just ignore certain mechanics with invuln. If I dump everything I can survive a 2-stack TB in savage, and PLD isn't even the best. Tanks just invalidate a huge amount of challenge with their current abilities.
I go into something like Jeuno as a healer and I feel so useless not having anything that mitigates as a WHM. I have my wings, I have the shield after those wings, and I have Aqua Veil and 2 Benisons for single targets. That's it. Offload some of the mit on tanks and give it to me, if you're going to give tanks some healing.
We've done expert roulettes with 3 DPS and a tank, with little to no deaths. I can see where Rinon is coming from. Higher content, sure! Regular dungeons, not as important as we'd hope.
My issue with healing is the sheer amount of tank healing just makes my class redundant. Like, i could use say tetra on the paladin who just ate a tank buster with zero mitigation..... or i could let the warrior who naturally wants to use nascent on him do that. I COULD cast a cure 3 to get the party through this raid wide...... or we could let the warrior headbut his shake it off key and heal the entire aoe by himself. I could fix the dragoons fuck up of walking in the fire.... or the gunbreaker could aurora him at no cost.
I started playing this game at the very start of shadowbringers, and began raiding at the end of the first tier of endwalker. I’m a healer main that beat this most recent tier on Astro, but have done clears in other tiers on almost every role. I agree with the video and its points. In a raid, even higher end, unless something goes wrong I have less fun than when I’m playing other jobs. When everything is going smoothly, you just spam your dps button over and over. I main Astro because the cards are at least something to do during burst with lots of double weaving, but it is nowhere near as much fun as doing a dps or even tank rotation. In dungeons my friends and I did 3 dps 1 tank runs since lapis and it probably was possible before then. As a Samurai I can just stand in bad aoes and heal myself without healer support, why would I play healer to spam one button when I could have more fun playing other jobs while completing the dungeon faster I don’t have a solution, I just have my experiences. I never felt this way in Shadowbringers, but I think this is more of a skill gap than a job development issue for my case. I started playing at a similar time to my friends and if the people around you are better at mitting, they take less damage and have less need of healing and so I needed to heal less. What I want is more meaningful decisions. Right now I press one of ten options, it’s good enough and I don’t need to do anything until the next mechanic 30 seconds later. 2 minutes later, I’ve pressed maybe half of my options and they’re coming up off of cooldown while I have unused buttons sitting there. Star and Assize are just dps buttons with a bonus heal if the fight designers choose to line things up. Again, I don’t have a solution. I don’t know how to make it better without having real consequences elsewhere. Making healing harder would be fun for me but stressful for others. I just want something to do or think about
I watched this video a few days ago and thought it was very good. He raises a lot good points, IMO. I can't speak to what all has been lost since I've only been healing since late SB, but his points hold up against my (better) experiences healing in other MMOs.
Jobs have gotten overall easier but this perspective also comes from someone who does Deep Dungeon, Savage, Ex and Ultimate Content over the space of years. After you clear savage/ultimate content, regular encounters are going to be a snooze because you have optimally learned your rotation/tool kit as well as comprehension of mechanics. Im all for healers getting more DPS buttons but having to track: Party HP, Mana, Multiple DOTs, Cleric Stances, Raid Mechanics, OGCDs and Boss Mechanics sounds like a nightmare.
DPS have to track all of that except for Party HP. I don't see why healers shouldn't have to do the same/ aren't being forced to do the same. But realistically, healers' ogcds aren't being tracked unless they're damaging ogcds and mana literally isn't being tracked. You either press lucid dreaming or you don't. That's the only decision affecting mana for healers. All other kinds of mana interactions healer have, they interact with naturally over the course of the fight with no real thought being put into it.
It's not hard tracking that, you would eventually get a feel for it over time. What would be hard is having to do a complex DPS rotation while also paying attention to what everyone else is doing and doing the fight mechanics. A few more damaging oGCDs wouldn't hurt, but giving healers a DPS rotation like a DPS job is not the solution.
Speaking as someone who has cleared every ultimate, clears the savage tier week 1, and regularly helps out with ultimate clear for ones, I die at least once or twice per expert roulette. We're still fallible human beings. If you see anyone with a "legend" title that doesn't mean they're better than you, it just means they are an incredibly stubborn player.
While I don’t think cleric stances should ever come back, you already have to keep up with most if not all of things you said already, and it’s still kind of stale. Why not add some more flavor?
There's a reason the Warrior of Light is never a healer in the trailers. All he'd be doing is standing there throwing a rock and occasionally sparkling at someone. Or not being able to heal a certain Elezen.
I for one like that all the jobs have so many tools to deal with stuff since most of ppl out there dont know half of their kits anyway so the other half can cover for the more clueless ones. Rinon's perspective i find to be from a super tiny community that both mastered their jobs and play mostly with others that have done so as well where everyone knows how to use all of their tools properly. So many ppl i encounter that don't know what Feint is or removed Addle from their hotbar and it starts to stack the difficulty pretty fast. Also you can't add more difficulty to the healer role as ppl already struggle, if you don't have a consistent static what you have to do in a fight changes drastically for healers already and you can't have healer - an already rare species - have even more responsibility in the fights as even more ppl would be just fed up with both pressure of playing well and more importantly the frustration with other ppl doing poorly making their life even harder. When you look at the beautiful logs in the forest you could imagine that best runs out there are assigned grey numbers in the healing score and the difference between grey and pink is from 50% to double the healing values, for a healer to reach those they'd have had to have the most cursed runs out there and you'd have to remember the logs in the woods show only the successful runs. At the end of the day, healer's difficulty lies in other players' performance which by default is a very cursed position to be in and honestly the best gameplay-wise change they could get would be a complete removal of healer role and change their kits into more dps like meanwhile boosting all other dps kits to have more healing to offset removal of the healing role which i'd imagine no healer player would like to see being implemented but that's the curse of healers in multiplayer games, the difficulty is simply in other people making the role impossible to balance for fun for everyone.
I completely disagree just add one thing that each healer can optimize won't make all the bad players worse they are already bad. People just 1 more thing to do instead of 11111112 the entire fight. Adding that won't break the game.
@@charizardgamez447 Okay, let's say we add 3 to your 11112 string, or even let's be brave and give a full 123 with a 4 for DoT. Does that actually solve the problem? Does it make you more engaged? Every 123 combo in the game may as well be the same button, because unless you explicitly fatfinger it, you ALWAYS do it correctly. There is exactly zero skill expression in following the shiny whether you do the basic VPR combo or DRK combo, you just press the shiny and that's it. That's how this game is built, so even if they added extra damage abilities, it's an illusory change that in no way addresses the actual issue behind videos like this. It won't break the game. SE could add those extra abilities tomorrow. It would simply change NOTHING about healers or their enjoyment, just add extra buttons to your bar.
@thesunthrone you are right. The problem doesn't get fixed, but that would still be better than nothing, and that's how bad it is. I saw some having 123 that just buffs healing, that could be interesting.
@@charizardgamez447 In other words, you want novelty, not solutions. 123 + 4 being functionally the same yet feeling slightly different is preferable to you ONLY because currently it's 111 + 4. Yet functionally, it is the exact same mechanism at play. Absolutely NOTHING changes but the superficial feeling of it. As for the stacking healing buff, again, you name something that seemingly sounds novel, but does not address any issue at all - especially when in this video the big healer problem is that they don't NEED to heal as much as the video author would want. Your proposed design would only make that further the case, with there being even LESS heals cast. But then, the video in question as a whole is less about healer jobs and more about the video author's burnout from the game.
@thesunthrone one, he's not burned. The design around healing had changed, and not for the better Two, I'm not a game dev. These are some ideas. I'm sure the people at SquarePants can hear this type of feedback and come up with something interesting. Having some novelty would really help part of the biggest problem for is the feeling of just spamming one button so I'm looking for solutions to that I would want 1 more thing added to the kit that I can think about don't know what.
Other than when I healed for the first time with SCH in ARR, Stormblood AST was the most engaged I was with a healer. Having all the cards do unique things, and you could alter them by doing things like make them an AOE with less effectiveness, or extend the buff timer, it was so good. But people love optimizing the fun out of stuff and only wanted Balance, when I loved trying to figure out what I wanted to do on the fly. I look at the cards now, 4 of the 6 read like they go onto the tank, and the other two are DPS. I also don't see why we can't have certain jobs healing just be more complex than another, instead of them being similar levels. If I want to DPS and turn my brain off, I go SMN. If I want to press buttons, I'll stay on MNK. If I feel like tanking, I go WAR because I don't really have to think that much. I'm leveling DRK right now and I feel like I have so many more buttons and cooldowns to keep track of, even though people talk like it's basically WAR just because you can press a button and do a move a few times.
The more I watch this, the more I realise this guy seems to just be raid-brained and completely disengaged from the casual player experience. He's been savage/ultimate raiding since Heavensward. The vast majority of players are on a different level to him, and that isn't a bad thing.
Not sure if this would help because I don't consider myself casual (anymore), but I first started in late HW and didn't actually get into raiding until stormblood. My healer of choice was Astro and I picked it up aside from whm and sch at the time because it just had better support abilities (time mage stuff on top of it being nice aesthetically). I was already better than most players even at a casual level, but exdeath min ilvl actually kinda broke me. I didn't come into it without some experience either, I healed all of Deltascape except for the 2nd tier with it and sch (I miss miasma 2 bargaining). Granted, I was still a sprout - but the black hole phase reducing max HP and rotating insta-kill tethers was something I was NOT prepared to heal for. SQEX has always had this issue until more recently where normal content could be somewhat facerolled, but the raids had a difficulty spike that did not reflect the majority of gameplay. This isn't helped by the fact that raid roulettes are not truly "roulletes", so much as them being a designated pool of instances the devs enable to be randomly picked, because I am pretty sure I've almost never seen coils of bahamut post HW, I have only seen Odin twice ever since playing for nearly a decade, stuff like that. And the devs consider Odin to be this in-between of normal and EX difficulty. Unfortunately that means it just gets caught in que limbo. I'll tell you one thing, I NEVER asked SQEX to make the job(s) less complicated, even though I play astro on controller (yes I'm insane lol). But they seem to really take issue with people not being able to use whichever job they want in hard content due to complexity. The worst part about all of it isn't merely the fact that our damage options were gutted, but our support effects got dumbed down so much that it killed me to see all of the changes in SHB. Ranged DPS also began to atrophy from lack of identity while Dancer just hogged all the spotlight. Like, why remove haste on astro and sch, why remove mana shift on casters, why just make almost every and all support abilities only mitigation or % damage up? It's not only lazy but disappointing. If we all do damage in this game, I want to experiment with different ways of applying it. Like giving a black mage a Stormblood AST Arrow (Royal Roaded for 50% extra buff potency) and watch them BRRR fire IVs in ley lines Nobody I have played this game with has ever said that they don't miss SB AST. It makes me genuinely wonder who SQEX listens to.
I'm one of those healers that tend to play healer because no one else wants to. That an a lot of the time healers aren't given healer only mechanics; like healing the dragon heads during Shinriyu extreme. I enjoy healing in fights when I know the mechanics or when I'm certain that I'm on the same wave length as my pairs partner. Or back during T4 that I was again in tune with what my group's OT was doing while watching everyone else. Now that's not to say I haven't had a dopamine rush when I still don't know the mechanics and the room is on fire. It's just not my preferred way of getting said rush. I don't mind if a fight is completed without me if the boss is at a low HP% or if myself and the rest of the group (or most of the group) are struggling so much that it's a time saver. I do however don't enjoy it when a person chooses to solo or duo a boss with high health and most of the group is doing it for the 1st time. Because then it comes off as showboating or not allowing others to learn how to do a fight.
While I think there is certain merit in discussing what could be improved about healers, I also think it's worth keeping in mind that NOTHING will feel the same after doing it for ten years or more. No job (real one, the kind that gets you paid in cash money outside FF), no hobby, no game. Our bodies adapt to the stresses we put on it, or they break. But generally, everything we do, we get used to, no matter how difficult, hard, fun, unfun etc. After some time we just need a change, even if objectively everything is fine, because that's just what our monkey brains tell us to do. Would healers be made more engaging if you had to press 123 for damage and 4 and maybe even 5 for DoT skills while also healing? Probably, yes. Would that actually solve the issue long term? Absolutely not, because it is NOT the core issue. What Rinon says about healers, the whole "unless you are a complete beginner" spiel applies to every single video game. They all have mastery curves that ultimately stop. Video games can NEVER be infinitely fulfilling. By design, they are limited, you are only ever progressing within the guidelines the designer has given you and deemed acceptable. This is where the long time player frustration always comes from, even if it's unconscious - they KNOW they have fully exhausted the potential of this game, and don't know what to do further. There is no fulfillment, because ultimately, all they have done is mastered a video game. It feels bad, because ultimately it is a reminder that those ten years could have been spent towards mastering something else that is applicable in more ways than just while the servers of the video game are running. But since few people want to admit that to themselves, instead they find issues in how the game currently is, what's currently an issue and hyperfocus on it on a degree that cannot be solved by the game's developers, no matter how they tried. Games are fun. Progressing together with others is great fun. But staking your happiness on the decisions of companies and developers that simply cannot give you what you want - that is only going to result in endless disappointment. If you ever are in the "I have played XYZ for 10 years, it's no longer fun like it used to" camp, that's not a problem with whatever game you play, even if objectively you can draw problems in the game.
I think one thing Rin is not understanding from this conversation is that healers being less busy (and thus less engaging) when everything is going right is by design. It *should* be like that. Why? Because since healers are primarily responsible for recovery when something goes wrong, it means that 1) They have to have extra tools beyond what's needed to clear the fight, otherwise they wouldn't have any available tools to handle when something goes wrong, and 2) if they are as fully engaged when everything is going right as other jobs, dealing with a recovery, which is by definition unexpected outside of prog, becomes too taxing. Because you can't plan for unexpected recovery situations, having to diagnose and respond correctly in real time can be far more complex than what any other job will face. Healers need to have the bandwidth available to them to deal with that. Some jobs are consistently engaging throughout the encounter. Other jobs are longer periods of boredom mixed in with moments of extreme stress. Rin clearly prefers the former, but some people may prefer the latter. Everyone complains about the homogenization of jobs, but making healers the same as everyone else in terms of engagement is just another way to say the game should be homogenized in yet another aspect. Some healer jobs are more complex than others. AST is the obvious example. AST is supposed to be the healing job for people who want more engagement throughout the encounter. So, if changes should be made for people who want to heal but be more engaged throughout, then maybe AST is where changes can be made. But the existence of more straightforward healing jobs is by design, and imo, shouldn't change.
Yes except if you're gonna do that, commit to it. Healers have 15 different buttons for healing and they use none of them in any non-extreme content, and only the oGCD/DPS positive ones in extreme/savage.
I used to remember a time (been playing since 2015, right before hw came out) when people complained that parties should have more tools to survive if a healer goes down. I guess it happened and now healers are complaining? Can't make everyone happy i guess. I play all jobs and also run hard content, also play casually so I'm indifferent tbh.
I think a big issue I have with this is that the view is too short-sighted. I think this can't just be looked at as "How do we make healers more engaging?" when part of the issue is how they've reduced the workload of them consistently in low-end content. By Shadowbringers, all the tanks have a quick mitigation tool. Two offer flat mit (Sheltron/Heart of Stone), one offers shields (TBN), and one... offers mit and a decent heal for EVERY INSTANCE OF DAMAGE A GCD CREATES (Raw Intuition). Moving into Endwalker, this gets balanced by adding a new oGCD mit with multiple charges (Oblation)... and giving everyone else either an additional form of self-sustain on top of an even stronger mitigation (Holy Sheltron got a regen, Heart of Corundum got a decent Excog) or even more mitigation without nerfing their self-sustain (Bloodwhetting gained a shield). This isn't even looking into how PLD also gained a bunch of non-committal GCD healing through Holy Spirit/Circle buffs and the Confiteor combo, or how both PLD and WAR have raid-mits that both heal the party as well. I think if the tanks were tuned more to DRK's general amounts of self-sustain back in 7.0, you'd probably just need a small expansion of the healer role's DPS kits to make them more engaging at all levels. That said, I can't say for certain the general community is ready for them to take on that level of responsibility.
I honestly just find playing healer very stressful, so I tend to avoid it. I'm still going to get all the healer jobs up to 100, but I'm saving them until last because of that stress factor.
My personal take on this is as a casual and kinda newish player. In PvE, I stick to normal fights like dungeons and normal raids, sometimes dipping my feet in some extreme or unreal trials for a bit of extra fun. I enjoy healing and don't see much problem with it at my level except for one thing. For raids and trials, I usually have fun and get to do my healer stuff. Recently doing the level 100 dungeons, however, there's something left to be desired. Most of the time I feel like nothing is happening, I feel like I barely have to heal at all especially in trash pulls, which leaves me with just doing damage which isn't exactly that engaging. I don't mind the simple damage rotations, but only when I get to have an engaging healing experience. Again, this is simply my perspective. I'm not a savage raider. The points made in the video seem to be mostly in context to higher-level stuff, which I do not regularly participate in. However, for casual content, I quite enjoy healing, but high-level dungeons and a lot of other dungeons just aren't engaging to heal. Maybe I'm just lucky by getting god tanks, but either way, I'd like to see these things get better.
They could add mech like doom and other cleansing debuff that will give them more to do in fights. They have defensive cooldowns like divine benison and aqua veil. Give them more reasons to use them. You also run the issue of player that want to green dps and be mad if making them do things outside of that happens. So the role healer has the fantasy of healing and keeping the party alive and well. Any gameplay they add should reflect this. If they give them more dps then that moves them further away the healing role they should be doing. Right now its im a dps that can heal instead of im a heal that can dps. The only time it feels like the later is in savage and ultimate, though the new ex feels closer to savage healing so it a step in the right direction.
Dungeons were harder in ARR if you ask me. I remember pulling every mob at once in Adampor and Wanderer's Palace. Getting Pharos sirius on the roulette? Wow you were in for a rough time. It's been years since I've been challenged in any way by a FFXIV dungeon as a healer. When a tank DC or AFK I can quite literally heal a dps and we keep pulling if one does enough damage to keep threat solely on them.
I'll throw my take into the ring. Make one or two of the healers have a very, very slightly more complex rotation you can -opt into- like a Black Mage. Look at it this way; nobody cares if you're a Black Mage that does a non-standard rotation vs the standard one, and the damage gain usually isn't the most impactful comparatively. That being said, if it's optional for those who -want- to get more out of the class, then realistically, nobody should have a problem with that. And given that Black Mage (a DPS Class) doesn't squeak out that much more damage when doing non-standard, the difference for having slightly more nuance for a healer will be even less impactful, but still keep things varied on an individual level. As long as the changes touted don't scare people off from healing anymore than they already do, and if it's only on one or two of them, the others will still act as an accessible gateway. More options, non-enforced!
I fully agree with Rinon on these points; healing nor DPS'ing as a healer is engaging, therefore the entire package of a healer just...isn't engaging. Even fight design ramping up does little to combat this as everyone else (especially tanks) has so much they can draw upon that you rarely need to fall back onto any of your toolkit properly. That and healers themselves have way too many 'free' answers to issues that arise - you never ever have to GCD heal because you ALWAYS have an oGCD up to top everyone off, even if there was a gigantic fuck-up somewhere in the fight. I personally miss old SCH that had all of the DOT's, Shadow Flare AND Bane to spread them all around. It was an engaging side activity to do alongside healing (because healing certainly wasn't going to be engagin alongside fight design at the time). Heck, when they stripped us back to two DOT's per healer that was still engaging as you still had two different-length timers to worry about and juggle. Now you apply your DOT and burn the key you've bound to your one damage skill into your keyboard so hard it might cease to be. I don't want healing to become some megamind job that only the top-end players would enjoy, but when you strip the engagement out of BOTH sides of a healer (healing and DPS) then you are not doing much in a fight outside of burning a hole into your keyboard or control pressing that one single button over and over with the occassional second button to refresh your DOT. Something has to give on one side or the other; either make the healing or damage more engaging. The real winner would be to make BOTH sides more engaging, but I highly doubt that'll happen.
I'm a white mage main and I've no complaints with the kit. I don't think the answer is "Make them harder to play". As someone who doesn't do high end raiding etc it would just turn me off my preferred class playing the content I choose to play. This clearly comes from the perspective of someone who plays the game for a competitive challenge whilst most players enjoy the game at a more casual pace. It's disheartening if I die and the tank can solo the rest of the fight. I think it's a problem with tanks survivability. It's an interesting topic of discussion and I enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts :)
tl;dr imo, they should buff healing, massively scale back the ogcd/insta-cast healing stuff, and focus more on resource management/dot uptime/comboing offense into healing. I have a lot of experience with healing in ffxiv (I've healed in savage in every expansion but DT). I'm of the opinion that healing was decent in ARR, where you had to carefully manage your MP and regularly use cure-1 for sheer efficiency reasons, and free-cure procs would always feel great. DPSing felt awkward, but you didn't have the resources to dps all the time so it was more something to do if damage was especially low. For HW, healing became miserable but got better over time. With extremely tight dps checks, you had to dps, but cleric stance made it miserable to do so, astro started off too weak to be functional, and outgoing damage was extremely spikey. Combine that with tanks using dps accessories and never touching tank stance, and you could watch your tank go from full to dead in 2 GCD's even through mitigation. By the final tier, this wasn't as much an issue, where they eased back on dps checks and damage stopped feeling so insanely spikey. I am of the opinion SB was the best for endgame in FFXIV history. For healers, you no longer had accuracy to worry about (a godsend because your gear didn't natively have it), and cleric stance no longer made you choose between dpsing or healing and effectively locking you out of the other for a few seconds. It had an issue in that heals were insanely powerful, but the mechanics were built with this in mind so it felt like you and your co-healer + tanks solving mechanics as a group by looking at what your toolbox had to offer. To make it even better, you had more dps buttons to press and various things to do. I especially loved healing as a scholar in this expansion, even if my favorite fight I actually healed as a whm (and loved how good whm's kit was for it). The issues with healers started in ShB, as far as I am concerned. In ShB, they gave all accessories vit. As a result, people had around 35% more hp (you can verify it by unequipping your accessories and comparing hp to with accessories). Enemy damage scaled up to compensate, so you felt like you had the exact same amount of hp, but... Heals didn't scale at all. The end result was all heals ended up being technically weaker (in terms of how much % hp they healed), and this was compensated for by giving us more OGCD's/instant casts. Instead of casting cure-2, you'd throw down a solace (instant cure-2) and a tetra (OGCD cure-2). MP management no longer existed at all because those OGCD's/instants rarely used MP, and were your main mp usage. With ShB, healing went from feeling like a toolkit of powerful abilities, to feeling like you were throwing the kitchen sink at damaged party members to heal them back up. Oh, and because you have all these new OGCD/instant cast skills, they took away most of your dps skills. So dpsing (which swapped from something you did during downtime to the standard) became even more boring, and... That was all you did. Also, as a fun side effect, emergency healing (healing when things start to go wrong) somehow became harder and more annoying to do because it no longer felt like your kit was designed to handle it. Every expansion since ShB has just been ShB with a but. Endwalker endgame is just ShB but they slightly buffed some heal potencies. DT endgame is just Endwalker but enemies have better mechanics and hit harder. Your buttons are functionally the same. You got a couple new toys in DT but it doesn't fix the issues introduced in ShB. And... I don't think we will ever fix those issues, because people are of the opinion healing is OP because you can throw 5 OCGD's/insta-casts at a problem to immediately heal someone to full, when the actual issue is healing is so weak that you need to throw multiple OGCD's/insta-casts to immediately heal someone to full.
It's funny that you mention MP management. Going back to the old MP standards would also fix a bit of the melding issues Ff14 has now. Having mana be a lot more difficult to manage would encourage people to meld piery, even just a little bit which ideally would be reverted to its old use which was mana regen amount. At least that way it wouldn't be the same old crit, dh, det melds across all classes.
@@luckytanuki5449 Did you know back in ARR, whm actually preferred det over crit? Crit scaling wasn't especially good at the time, and det scaling was insanely good, so sch and whm strait up had different stat priorities (whm didn't care about crit but loved piety and det, sch didnt care about piety and loved crit and liked det). It was actually pretty interesting how different they were. This... Went away by HW, of course, but it was interesting while it lasted. Also if you want to hear something fun: in ARR, lalafell were the best black mages because they naturally had more piety, literally just enough to squeeze 1 more fire 1 into their rotation.
@uberpinkwarrior Nah I didn't, I started beginning of stormblood so I was there for the still more skill expression gameplay, but thankfully not for the extremely awful parts like cross class progression. Hell, aggro generation and aggro pool's were already pretty miserable. But that's my point, materia needs to be fixed too and changing things slightly with healer could be that change to make it more unique.
Healers, and all classes, have gotten smoother over time because between Heavensward and Stormblood, the game changed its design mentality from complex classes with simple fights, to simple classes with complex fights. The raids back then were very simple in comparison to the complex dances that exist today. The difficult came from razor thin margins in class upkeep mechanics and movement challenges (everyone remembers the cast times Bard and Machinist had, yes? lol). Personally, ive loved healing in Dawntrail. The alliance raid is a blast to heal.
What people don't seem to understand is that Rinon is not asking to raise the skill floor, they are asking to raise the skill ceiling. Is the healer you're playing easy and fun? Great! Here's a handful of things you can optimize slowly but surely. Is the encounter getting too chaotic? Then don't focus on your DPS and focus on your healing, chances are, nobody is parsing you or even cares.
Except at that point the same .01% of healers will master the new celling and complain again. You cannot at all make these people happy, and you know what they will never be happy at all.
@@grygaming5519 so never try then? The state right now is really bad it feels like there's no ceiling to healers at all people just asking for something to to keep them engage that's not a big ask.
@@grygaming5519 Oh yeah the hardcore players are just so evil and mean and they'll never be happy so we should never listen to them! How dare they be good at the game and make me feel self conscious about my own skills!
That moment when you cant join the convo as a healer main because you like non-standard partycomp envoirnments more so most knowledge and experience you have is stuck in an extremely niche corner of the game
I feel like its ok to say that healers are....ehhh? in FFXIV...I mean it is not a bad to say "Hey, so what are we doing as healers in this content besides healing the least amount we can, and dpsing in downtime between mechanics that hit hard..." There are people who either ignore or are apologists for the role of healer being played incorrectly, not saying that as a way of calling out sprouts or anything, but it is quite obvious that dps is a part of the healer role kit, because literally there is nothing to do at times as a healer...and yet we have all of these cool spells, and then...we use half of them? Or as a whm main...using lillies to move just to get blood lilies to then...do dps. Idk, idk why people are scared to talk about it like its bad, healthy conversation is good, people just like to either bitch, or say "well healers dont need to dps"
make healing harder by making new rules for exclusively savage raid content. raising the bar across the board is gonna create a healer shortage or a tank shortage for all other dawntrail content challenging end game healing already exists and its the roulette and specific queing for casual content
Stutter-step your slidecasts. RP-walk bosses. Do things that make other players impressed. That's what healers should be doing- damage while looking awesome.
The problem is that the only dungeon/trail/alliance/normal raids players will focus on dps than on the healing part. There are some players that are very bad at healing.
my issue with these types of vids is that it's always savage players and beyond talking about their jobs and asking for changes, but look, if you're a savage raider you're in the top 10% of players, if not less than that, and you're asking for changes that effect everyone. And many of those people who play more casually than they do, do not need these changes, and it's short sighted to consider they should.
Rin's point still stands no matter what kind of content they do be it dungeons, trials and any of the casual content, the fact that healers only get to have fun when the party is struggling. The moment you get into a group that can run things smoothly, the healers get to do less and less. Changes doesn't have to be complex, just make them interesting when they didn't have to do healing, casting Glare/Broil/Dosis/Malefic so much can be boring.
Clear rates for savage are much, much higher than 10% of the entire playerbase. More than 10% of the active playerbase has cleared Ultimate. But that's neither here nor there. I think it's short-sighted to write off what these players have to say. Consider that job design has a floor and a ceiling. Casual players are interacting with the floor, which would entail, anecdotally, spamming Cure II to keep a tank alive in packs. These players are considered casual because they are not interacting with the job's full kit. Which is totally fine because the content they engage with doesn't demand they do. These players don't know anything is wrong because Cure II functions as it always has. The players who notice a decline in job interactivity are those who are and have been utilizing the job's full kit in content that demand they do. Or used to, at least. The object of Rinon's video is to show that healers have gotten too powerful in the hands of those who know how to use their full kit and that power ceiling is too easily accessed. This wasn't always the case. In the case of Stormblood Scholar, Miasma II was a high-risk, high-reward tool that proficient players could use to optimize their gameplay, and casual players literally never needed to touch. It is possible to have disparity between the skill floor and the skill ceiling of a job such that the latter doesn't feel boring to good players. We know this because this paradigm existed in the game, and it was taken away from us. Interesting job design need not impeed the gameplay of casuals. But boring job design necessarily impacts the enjoyment of people who want to improve but can't.
I felt weirder when the casuals complained about noxious gnash on viper makes the job too hard to play, then it's removed from the game, what so hard about it? It's just the same thing like shadow of death on reaper. Plus, if the job is hard or whatsoever, you don't have to play that job, there are 21 jobs in the game, even if you really like a job and you think it's hard, it's not, maybe it's hard to optimize but casuals don't care about optimizing, so it doesn't matter.
I really think that this issue isn't, in fact, solveable because the problem isn't so much the Tank mitigations or the Healer toolkit or the incoming damage, it's the extreme skill gap between the best and the worst players and there is nothing that can be done about that gap if they want newbie healers *at all* . Like, when I was a newbie healer, I was damn near shamed out of the game because I didn't know HOW to "ABC" in Snowcloak. I'd been playing for *less than two weeks* for crying out loud. The issue is that players who have been playing Healers since, say, Heavensward, are going to be MUCH more "bored" with the role than the Conjuror who just started the game last week and might not have ever played an MMO before. There *might* be a path forward in reclassifying "Healers" as "Magic DPS with Healing Tools". The ONLY Healers who are going to be using their ENTIRE Healing kits are going to be those going into Ultimates and MAYBE someone running the Nier Raids with a bunch of newbies and/or people who haven't seen them since Shadowbringers was current. I love Healing, but I'm NOT at that level and, hell, the Healing requirements just in Dawntrail have driven me OUT of Healing because I can't keep up. I ended up going Picto 'cause that way I don't even have to deal with being a Rez Mage (which is usually my preference). So we might need fewer Healing tools and more DPS tools (like an insta DPS strike that uses a lily and charges the Blood Lily for White Mages) or we might just need to make ALL the Casters into "Magic DPS with Healing Tools" and give them ALL access to Rez, Esuna, and a few insta-cast heals, renaming the whole role into something like "Support Caster" or we might need to just rework the ENTIRE Holy Trinity away from Tank/DPS/Healer to something else entirely. But even if we do all that, the gap between the highest skill and the lowest skill players will remain and MUST be navigated or the highest skilled players will be bored out of their minds and the lowest skilled players will just quit the game before they have the chance to become higher skilled players.
Wrong. All they would have to do is add in more consistent damage to be healed at all times, or make healers heal from the damage they do. It is 100% solvable, just think harder.
@@BjornStatenguard I don't think that would actually solve the issue of the extreme gap between the best and the worst, or rather, the most experienced and the least. Anything passive isn't going to make things more interesting for those for whom the cognitive load of healing isn't engaging anymore, but anything active is going to absolutely overwhelm those who haven't had enough experience yet to make the load easier to handle. And requiring MORE healing from neophyte healers for whom what we already have is too much is either going to make them quit the game entirely or simply move to DPS and only heal during MSQ, which is going to make the whole fundamental healer shortage even worse.
They need to rework the healers entirely. They should all function like wow's disc priests. Damage the enemy to heal the party. With each having unique flavor added to the core dpsing healer gameplay loop. In addition, make most bosses radiate dmg or dots on the players, most of the time, so healers actually need to heal.
It's wild too me seeing the casual healers being so against adding more engagement to healers when it doesn't affect them. I used to main AST in EW, absolutely adored the job, did savage and ultimate on it, but come DT I main PCT and altought I still play AST once in a blue moon I rarely do. AST in EW felt perfect to me, it requiere fast motor skills and fast tinking every 2 minute to give out 3 cards ASAP, it was different every time thanks to the RNG while redraw allowing you to have some control over it and not being a huge punishment if you got cucked. AST was fast and high apm and requiered fast descicion making... only if you bothered. You could perfectly well not bother with the triple cards in the 2 minute. if you do your 2 minute on cd and kept your uptime it was more than enough to clear savage and most ultimates with. the game is set up in a way that you could clear most casual content never attacking and only using like a third of your kit, but now AST has been dummed down and I dont want to play it anymore, theres no more RNG to entretain me and most of your cards are useless now outside of MINE coils. skill ceilings don't interact much with the skill floor, a job having complexities does not affect those that dont want to interact with it. just look at 7.0-7.04 BLM who had its skill ceiling chopped off while raising its skill floor. for all intents and purposes 7.0 AST has the exact same skill floor as 6.0 but it got its ceiling chopped off and its a trend the game has of taking away any complexity the game has, seeming to be that people dont understand that its a ceiling for a reason. you are not expected to play like that, the ceiling might be something to aspire to and work towards, a journey of self improvement for yourself. but instead of the game having a wide variety of jobs with wide amount of complexity... they are just taking all that complexity away.
WHM still progging M4S here (to give an idea of my perspective). It's a good topic and people should have the conversation, but anyone who says healers aren't impactful enough immediately loses me. Sure, healers are only really needed for heal checks specifically for them... but in the same way tanks are only needed for tankbusters and DPS are only needed for DPS checks. I think for Rinon, the real problem is that they got better even as healing got easier. For each point they bring up, it only really affects progression or recovery which are already doing fine. Go back through the list with the mindset of doing a fight you already know and no one is messing up. None of those points matter once you've already figured out what resources you want to spend on each mechanic. However, I still understand the need to feel rewarded for being good at your job. To that end, I propose a shift in fight design to allow for more mechanics that can be resolved in alternate ways if certain players are good at their role. For example, the boss drops two tethers defaulting to the healers ofc. The tethers give a spicy DoT in an AoE (think M2S stacks) when they go off. Intended resolution is obviously to do light party stacks, then lightly heal through the DoT. However, a tank can take that tether and solo the stack with some mitigation, then really have to use their kit to survive the 4-stack DoT while the rest of the party presumably resolves other mechanics a bit easier without damage eating away at them. Maybe a debuff that reduces healing from other sources which is negligible at 1 stack, but leaves the tank on their own if they solo it. Another example, a ground flare that goes off repeatedly on the boss's location which encourages everyone to back away, but constant GCD and woven oGCD heals from both healers can mitigate the damage enough to keep the Melee DPS in the fight. The idea behind both is to give players the potentially risky option to exhaust their resources. Alternatively... just add randomness to the otherwise static dance of the harder content. Not just changing the order of mechanics, but also which ones are used. Maybe one run, you end up with 3 tankbusters in a row and you'll need to have spaced out the mitigation instead of kitchen sink'ing it every time. That's really what made WoW raiding different to me. Having to adapt keeps a bit of that progression vibe in every run. One run might be laughably easy while another might be a harrowing experience even without mistakes.
I find a lot of videos from older FFXIV creators reek of arrogance, particularly when it comes to generalised statements like "unless you are brand new, the job becomes boring quickly". This is flawed logic as it makes an assumption that the way that he interacts with the job is the default for everyone. If someone isn't new to the job, but doesn't find it boring, it automatically puts them in contention with the statement. They naturally push back as their experience is not being accurate represented, and the whole "The FFXIV community can't take criticism" thing goes on, when it just someone giving their opinion about an opinion (which is ironic as it's a person that couldn't take criticism about them talking about others not being able to take criticism). That's all that this is, opinions. If healing is only fun when things are going wrong, by bringing that same level of challenge to baseline might make it unmanageable when mistakes are made. Adding more dots might be fun for some, but tedious for others. It's why I think that jobs in the same role should have dedicated "easy" and "hard" jobs. They might both achieve the same goal, but how they go about it can be different. One could be very linear, the other could be complicated. It's probably the best situation you could get. Furthermore, I don't think that comparing a level 60 kit to a full level 100 is a good comparison, current WHM doesn't have most of the things he listed at lvl 60. Also, a lot of the complaints that he made are not as a result of making it more beginner friendly, but in response to creators talking about difficulties in maintaining damage uptime (or how they hated having the cast a GCD cure because that ate into their damage parse), or that Afflatus wasn't damage neutral, or that people kept standing too far away so they didn't get healed or buffed. Wording matters, what someone meant as a comment on other players may be seen as a comment on the game systems. Also a small nitpick, when you say things like "smashing the ceiling AND the floor"....it puts an emphasis on the floor, when it's the ceiling that was in point.
"It's why I think that jobs in the same role should have dedicated "easy" and "hard" jobs." Absolutely. Coming from a fighting game background, I've long championed this idea of each role in this game having jobs that vary wildly in game play, and cater to different skill sets. Tier lists be damned, as long as every job can clear content. Yet as time goes on, many jobs are only becoming more similar. Shame, really.
@@bPlusOne Except in that case i would come and ask you why should the Summoner be the easiest caster to play ? (or not ?) The issue with this kind of arbitrary decision is the fact you will infuriate many many players in the process.
@@Cyiel568 That's game design unfortunately - everyone can't and won't be happy at all times. Admittedly, change would be a bigger problem now since the game's been out for over 10 years. Many players have settled into comfort zones and routine, so sweeping changes would indeed anger a lot of people. Yet, there still exist players like Rinon, and thousands upon thousands of others who aren't getting what they need anymore from jobs as they are now. Challenging and active game play has been taken away from them over the years, and that's a problem that should be addressed. But how does this happen without making some controversial changes?
Respect to RinBanana but i think he's take that healers are engaging only during BLIND cutting edge progression is too much to one spectrum. I think it is the MOST engaging yes, but progression, blind or with guides, still have a high level of engagement. Progress for a healer will always follow the same road as for any role as they slowly get used to the fight. At that point i think the engagement for all roles tend to die out as they follow the choreography, rotating through their skills, and using mits on schedule depending on the boss timeline. But the thing is, Healers at any point of progress, from learning to clearing, will always be the main ones to resolve human error which can occur at any point of progress, from learning to clearing. Especially when progress is in the consistent clearing point, as DPS optimize, taking more risks to tack on just one more GCD before an avoidable mechanic. The factor of human error will always be there. I do agree there should be changes. For example, im a sch main. I think that there should not be a choice on whether to use an aetherflow stack on energy drain or a party beneficial. Most of the time, SCHs prioritize Energy drain in both learning phase and clear phase. Maybe have energy drain exclusively use flow and all the mits that used flow have its own gauge/stack. Or maybe force healer mits by creating boss moves or raid wides that will wipe the party unless both healers pops a group mit, if only 1 healer uses a mit, the boss mechanic will still do wipe damage. Doesnt matter if addle is on, or tank mits. It would strictly need to be both healer mits.
I prog on Scholar in a group that I'd characterize as having midcore pretensions but only being able to sustain a casual schedule; we're currently taking a break from M3S prog to do EX3 clears. We're mostly made up of people who used to raid at some point in WoW and we've been largely consistent in our roster since Stormblood. Before that, I started XIV raiding for the last tier of Alexander. As a result I've played all sorts of different takes on Scholar - including the super wild time when they removed Energy Drain - but I'm not so good at it as to be divorced from how a typical raider might see healing. A stat I think is useful to know is that only 5% of players have cleared M4S, according to FFXIVCollect's data. With that said, I think Scholar is in a relatively good place right now. It needs improvement - specifically, the fairy gauge can be completely useless at times and only half the healers have gap closers - but we're doing pretty well. It's more fluid and rewarding than it was in Endwalker or Shadowbringers. I can feel a real identity for it that's distinct from the other healers, and with cool buttons like Seraphism I finally have that big cooldown that'll let me save my group from a wipe. I like Scholar, warts and all, and I'm happy playing it. Making raid mechanics more challenging is a far better solution than making the process of healing more challenging. Raising the skill requirements of the content rather than the skill requirements of the job is the right way, as we all improve and push our limits together.
I'm actually fine with only half the healers having gap closers. It's on brand with the healers they're on. WHM is the simpler pure healer, SGE is the simpler shield healer. Similar to how we have WAR and PLD as the "defensive" tanks and DRK and GNB as the "offensive" tanks. there's specific dichotomies within the holy trinity that I think should be maintained.
So, I've avoided this video itself, I only clicked because you're here for reactions, but I can't even get more than half way through it. I prog on Healer, I clear on healer. I DO NOT need more chaos in my life as a healer. Dungeons? Sure Healer is the slow mindless job at times. EX and Savage, I learn the fight, when I need to heal, when I need to focus my dps. Even with the 2 buttons, keeping dot up, I still have a ROTATION. It's just a healing rotation I am performing the entire fight. When things go wrong, it pisses me off more than makes it engaging. Because now I am having to adjust to issues, using resources I normally wouldn't at a given point, etc... The things he loves about it, I downright hate having to do. I ENJOY healing as it is. Granted, I only have my personal experiences to go off of, but every time this 'healing sucks' thing comes up I am personally just confused. I like to role. I like the role being limited on the DPS end, if I wanted to be a hardcore dpser, I'd learn to play a DPS. I heal, and I tank. I enjoy doing both, I enjoy how they are set up.
You know you have a problem when you start your video (well, after the five minutes of padding) with "things are only engaging if you do the content that 99% of players don't do and don't want to do/can do" lmao. Frankly I'm tired of people going "I don't like healing, so healing should be changed to be more like dps" like maybe go play dps then. I *will* say I do get sad when fun healing opportunities in normal content get trivialised within like two weeks due to gear going up. But like. How about we make the fights more interesting to heal, instead of insisting every job has to have more complicated button pressing. I love focusing on complex healing situations while I can leave the dps up to muscle memory. I like overseeing the flow of the fight, not keeping my eyes on damage numbers. I like picking up a team of newbies and carry they through a piece of content they didn't think they could do. All that is more interesting than having to micromanage a rotation. Also, picking which part of your kit you want to use when to be as efficient as possible is? Its own fun challenge that you can do while keeping the job accessible to newcomers.
The boilerplate comes down to this simple fact. Do you the player want to spend more time doing something so the Trinary feels equal in contrubution. or Do you the player want to jump in and jump out so you can do other things. That's the whole basis of the argument. Make the game harder so I have more things to do is not a good way of doing things. We had that before in ARR and HW, people chose to go with their friends over duty finder. There was a legitimate healer shortage and White Mage is that class if it was to get something would eclipse all other healers. Square is in a no win situation but healers do not want to recognize that their wants will also piss other people off.
adding 1 more thing for healers to optimize won't kill all casual healers. It's people are trying there best to not engage in the discussion by saying "square can't make everyone happy" that's the point of the discussion is to find a solution in which midcore players can to try optimize in a fight to stay engaged instead of 111111112 spamming the whole time.
They need to make one or two dedicated healer that is just insanely difficult to play but has an equally insanely high amount of use to the party. Like keep white mage as the "Noobie" healer and the other three as a slight step up in terms if difficulty, but make a brand new healer that is just over the top difficult that can appeal to these high end raiser types. That way, less skilled players can still have an easy time on the less skill reliant healers, and high skilled players can show off how good they are and can stop complaining about how easy healing is. Better yet, take it to the next level and do this for all future classes. So it for tank and dps too.
I dunno, I’m a White Mage healer main and have been since I started FF14 and I don’t really mind the current state of healers. I often find that the people who have the most complaints about the state of Healers are the top tier/hardcore crowd or DPS/Tank players in other roles who don’t like the healer roles but want to play them
I've been playing since end of shadowbringers and main all 4 healers. I just want one more thing to synargize in the kit to make more engaging. 111111112 needs not be my entire existence.
Easy fix to the healer problem. Take away all healing abilities, just keep the spells. Done. Watch all of them despair and spend most of the fight actually healing instead of doing dmg.
As much as I do want DPS to remain a part of healing, I do agree that the devs have leaned way too hard on oGCDs. The fact that a vast majority of GCD heals are buttons that a skilled healer doesn't want to press is a failure of job design. Yes, I know that many people are more than happy to hit those buttons casually, but we can design healers where all players of all skills want to use all the buttons. We have the technology.
99.9% of these videos and opinions are those that can not be taken seriously cause as a literal top 1% of player base the game can not remotely be catered to your onion on balance/healing required cause it would mean about 75% of the player base would be set to a lvl of struggle they can not handle which leads to loss of players and even worse a massive loss of players in that role which means a even worse role balance than what we already have. Now I will put emphasis on this as someone who is a savage player aswell in the top 25% of tank and dps players and around a 50%healer which is vastly higher than the majority of players, I dont find healing overly hard but not to say I don't have a crazy amount to do when helping people clear content and prog. Now as a tank and dps I can say easily that savage is EASY stupidly so on the job role side especially but thats ok there is another lvl of content I could be doing that I know is EXTREMELY hard by comparison to savage but I choose to not do it because I enjoy other content more. The point I am trying to get at is just cause your role is easy doesn't mean you should expect the devs to put in higher difficulty to your role just for you to then take away from the vast majority of the player bases enjoyment of the game. The games balance and job role balance have to be separate always with the jobs being more on the anyone can play it and the content being set to different levels of difficulty with some content to a point some content is designed despite it being NOT being even remotely smart to make from a developer point of view when less than 5% of the player base will experience but the developers still put effort into it that content that will not give much in the way to incentive to play for the majority of players. Basically the point is job roles cant be designed around the highest end players playing with the highest end players it is a recipe for failure.
In Shadowbringers I knew two statics that fell apart and 6 healers that stopped raiding over the specific issue of E8S, one of the hardest fights available to people who could schedule the time to play it, being boring to heal. None of these were hardcore or top 1% players or even above average parsers. Just people going about their business and getting bored because the healing jobs were boring. Your 99.9% comment probably does not apply to this specific video. It is not difficult for the average player to get bored of healing difficult fights. The difficulty is specifically not on the healer role. There is just not much to do, and it would not make the game more difficult for most people to consolidate heals and give healers more buttons to do other things.
Rinon is very tone deaf with the current state of healers in the game, he expects that every healer play at his level and their group which is never making any mistakes and min maxing healers damage and healing cooldowns, he basically wants to raise the bar of difficulty of an already hard role that has the job of healing others people mistakes, most of the times you are paired with your average joe that WILL make TONS of mistakes. Healers were complex because the fights at the time were simple, now healers HAVE to be simple to the new complex fights, otherwise you are pushing new players out of the role which is notorious for being the least played already.
@@lev884 Except they're not saying healing is complex right now? They're saying healing is easy because the fights are complex. I don't agree with them but you're misreading their point. People have this misconception that healing is hard just like the similar kinds of people that get tank anxiety for x reasons. Healing is very easy. People just have a huge mental block about what it takes to heal and/ or they have a fear of failure leading to be scared of letting the group down. Healing is keeping people alive, and keeping people alive is very easy. It's keeping people alive while doing the most damage, that's the hard and interesting part of healer as it currently is. Rinon just wants this part, where you have to juggle healing and damage, to be harder. That shouldn't affect the skill floor required of being a healer. That only affects the top end of healers.
@Jaxter0987 you know, when I wrote the comment, I realized someone was gonna ding me for the phrasing. I'm glad it was you lol, everything you've said pretty much spot on.
god I rejoiced the day they finally killed cleric stance for good, same with having to change stats if you wanted to play sch or smn, it was just stuff that got in the way of enjoyment for me
I, personally, can't play astrologian and have fun doing it anymore. As someone who did enjoy the old card system, it was super engaging and always had me figuring out what to do with my next card, what combo I can do with it, how can I make the most of the situation. The job itself has become boring due to the cards/healing becoming stale, like the video suggests. Sure, I do agree there was low lows like spire royal roading into ewer and vice versa, but when I get the highs of extended arrowing my BLM to have 1.4s Fire IV's under leyline, it's just a rush. When I can make a combo of cards that make tank cool downs look like a joke (30% dmg redux for 55s, Enhanced Bole + time dilation + collective unconsciousness with a regen lasting just as long), those moments give me that adrenaline rush. Engagement. Instead of, look dps card, is it blue? melee. is it purple? ranged. Even now with the new set of cards, you just place the cards in a mostly monotonous way. If you don't use them or have a chance to use them, you end up just spamming them out because you have to get to your next set of cards or they drop to the floor. Each expansion, I give the new iterations a try but my jaded feelings about the job never fades. Healing now, it's just an embarrassment of riches after making every button just do more healing but only necessary when you need to fix a problem or just using them because they have a dps component attached to them and not using them = dps loss. The engagement is only there when unexpected happens to break up the routine.
There was once a time of HW savage raiding. It almost killed raiding scene of the game. Seems like someone like Rinon are those small camp of "survivors" that suffering from nostalgia about "good old days, when grass was greener and everything was a challenge". Yes for ultimate healers - latest expansions are easy, but you check beyond 0.1% and you can literally die from heal check / healer mechanic.
Here’s the fix: give dps 1 to 2 simple interactions that feel good to press damage wise. 2) the fights need to be tuned where healers do NOT contribute most of their time to dps and make the unavoidable damage increase by 700%. Make them heal more in hard content and in easier content them finding the time to dps to make them feel a general sense of rewarding gameplay. That’s the fix
as Main Healer in Japanese Data Centre, I don't want rotation or more DPS button. People too focus Healer is boring because they mastered the fight, what about the one that new also having new player to duty alsoDPS that keep eating mechanics Mana is expensive on Healer and very punishing on Healer that just being raised Healer can die because of other player too. Like me, I always die in dungeon.... because I doze off often especially in Snowcloak for some reason😂 WHM solo regen should be ogcd 😂 Healer also need to target more to solo heal,esuna, shield, buff, debuff and also dps. basically adding rotation could be a mess and make some player rather finish combo and do damage than healing
@one909 and that's fine. All the healers don't need to change. Maybe just give astro and SCH more things to think about whale, keeping the others simple.
honestly get back Cleric stance, increrase mana costs, and maybe add second dot, and probably make healer feel more interesting, i would also probably decrease tanks survivabilty to increase healers needs, so many dungeons you can run and just not need one, evcen max level current dungeons. Healing just doens t have any engagement at the casual end, and running dungeons can be sleep inducing.
I been playing healer for a long time. I love to dps and sage is now one of my mains.... But god this guy just rubs me the wrong way. I don't agree with any of his "your a bad healer" redric. "Elite guy wants elite things for elite class get out of the way newbs"
Yeah, I like a fair bit of their content, but a lot of this video came off as them saying "I get bored outside of fresh Savage prog and Ultimates, so the healers should be made way harder for everyone, not just me." Like... nah, dude. At most I'd say it would be cool to have one particularly hard tank and healer, but the game clearly doesn't want that. Gunbreaker was made way easier and more homogenized and it's clear that was super deliberate. Healers I don't know as well, so it's hard for me to say whether AST, SCH, or SGE would be the best pick for a "hard" healer, but either way, if CBU3 wanted one of them to fit that niche then it already would after all these expansions.
@@FishSkeleton-he's just asking for the skill ceiling to be raised He deliberately touchs the skill floor. Just give healers something they can optimize.
@@charizardgamez447 He also said that healers are only interesting to play during blind prog on hardcore content or when something is going seriously wrong and people are taking tons of damage. Meanwhile it seems like 50% or more of healers in random roulettes and such don't even know they can Sprint in a dungeon, or that Esuna exists.
Look, the healer kit is fine. It's when and why we use it is the 'problem'. If I just press one button over and over for roulette partly because some of my pt members with max ilvl for that patch (or me) it'll be a snoozefest. Wanna make it interesting? _let me heal_ Sincerely, a healer_main_that_got_burned_out_after_almost_a_decade
I disagree with the kits being fine. As a healer, my problem isn't that I'm healing less, it's that the healing I'm doing is lame as hell. I have no substantial resources to manage or core mechanics to consider. I just hit the heal buttons when they're needed. Having to do that 10 times instead of 5 doesn't improve anything. I feel like most of these complaints would evaporate if the healer kits were better designed. to be clear btw. I don't want more complex DPS rotations or more buttons. I just want my buttons to be more involved and have more opportunity for optimization and decision making.
@Bistai949 Ergo the reason I'm saying the kit is fine because some would make the arguement the kit we have is simplified because the encounters are getting more complex. Fundamentally I do agree with you. If this is the design language the dev intended therefore they should make our kits more involved and modular, especially when it is simplified. But what is happening right now is just a play script that is fixed and only can be optimized. It's like playing a lame version of a rhythm game.
The main problem XIV raiders have is their inability of understanding everything below them. They want the game catered to their needs and, while understandable, it's quite egoistic and I'll be honest it's badly concealed because "if you don't play as them you are bad" is quite the dumb argument when you try to get water to your windmill.
i agree that rinon is out of touch with the average player's experience, but this is because the average player isn't engaging with encounters that are meant to require coordination or thought at all. the bar for performance is in hell and there are still players that manage to limbo under it. healing cannot be engaging only when your group is bad or you are bad, it needs to be engaging at all levels of play and that's what the argument is about. if making healing engaging is pushing people away from the role, then those people shouldn't heal and when we're 5 expansions in, that has to be accepted for the health of the game. otherwise, the playerbase becomes the little cousin with the unplugged controller pretending to interact with the screen. every tank and dps has way too many support tools. every healer has way too many healing tools and WAY too many opportunities to use them. even in the latest patch, they changed holy to a 1.5s cast time which just opens even more chances for weaving - weaving that isn't needed whatsoever. most players already use way more gcd heals than they actually need, and gcd healing is something that should be required at all levels. right now, it's barely needed at the highest level. in reality, changing the experience so that healers actually need to heal just means that more casuals become less bad without even changing their playstyle.
Agreed, and to add on to this point, I find it really annoying when people act like these changes would necessarily make the casual player's experience worse. These jobs can be designed in a way that makes them enjoyable in casual and difficult content. This isn't some dichotomy where either the ultimate raiders are happy or the casuals are happy.
It also increases the time you the better player have to waste in a roulette just so Jonny Two thumbs can get better. The reality was in 2.0 and 3.0 there was no real healer shortage. The thing was majority of the better healers refused to que up for Expert because of bad players. This is in 2.0-3.55, people would rather party up with people who could do their classes vs gambling on players in DF. All you'll be doing is making sure people go back to what they were doing in ARR&HW. I wouldnt run expert in DF if we went back that way, i'd grab 3 friends I know can play their classes and run expert. Even when it comes to leveling, I'd make sure I wouldn't have to deal with randos at all because as noted I do not trust a Jonny two Thumbs to tank, dps or heal competently if the difficulty in the dungeons start to scale upwards.
I personally both agree and disagree with you. I disagree, because this person has been playing for a long time, and they would be a person who would a better 'feel' of the game, versus many others, and they have an internal check of how it felt then vs now. However, I also agree, because I do not think WHM having Cleric Stance sounds like a fun player mechanic. Going into or out of a specific stance being the only factor in if a person dies or not would feel bad, and I do not believe that should be something a WHM needs to deal with, unless it was slightly changed to make it not *as* punishing, like lowering the CD with it, or something. But, in general I do agree with the video's ideas.
The whole reaction is too dang long!
So it'll be divided in 2 parts, with part 2 comming tomorrow for youtube algorithm purposes!
So do you agree with the points presented so far? I certainly have my takes!
This ties into that conversation you had with Happy. If everyone has these really strong mitigation tools, and healers themselves have an excess of tools, the idea is that you want to heal as little as possible. A big talking point about FFXIV compared to other MMOs is that “you need to do damage as a healer” but that’s not the whole story. For a large portion of the fight, you don’t *need* to heal, since damage isn’t always coming out, and when it does it’s often mitigated by tanks and DPS. So for the most part you’re doing damage just so you aren’t sitting around doing nothing.
If that’s where SE wants healer to be, a damage dealer that keeps the party alive, then they’re not making it very fun with the very simple damage rotations. For comparison, tanks are essentially melee DPS with simpler rotations, but more responsibility. I feel like healers could benefit by taking more queues from casters. Because each caster has their own identity, their own gameplay feel. Healers have… a _little_ bit of that, but they really blend together. Same filler spell, same dot, maybe 1 or two other damage cooldowns. I don’t think you need to have insanely complicated rotations, and tanks certainly could use some improvements, but I think that’s the step to take with improving how healers feel.
That being said, I definitely think this problem is exacerbated by Rinon being a really good player. I still find healing engaging and fun, but I won’t say it can’t improve at all.
Yeah. The frustrating thing is when you've got your nuts sorted out, but your cohealer, or tank, or a dps forgot a mit like addle to something, and now ppl die to raidwides. Otherwise, reducing gcd heals to zero is where I find my fun.
Party mitigations by tanks and dps needs to be significantly nerfed.
Healer abilities need to be changed around. We need to have heals that are really strong but also expensive on MP.
Self heals needs to be mitigated for Tanks and DPS.
Tanks should not be able to Shield AND Heal parties as well.
The issue with healing is two parts, the jobs are boring while Tanks and DPS have received a lot of utilities that have reduced the importance of a healer. I have done several blind week 1 clears and to push DPS my group abused all of the utilities Tanks and DPS offered just so me and my co-healer can DPS more and heal less.
@@sunrah27 While I agree where you coming from, but I disagree where your conclusion ends. I think split some responsibility of mitigation is definitely the right call to encourage more people to play healers, and it also make healer have slightly less responsibility even though they are still a critical role for majority of the content.
And healer have been tasked to push dps ever since the start, especially in week 1 situation where single bits of more damage is important, more in the older days and less so in 7.0 due to the strength of picto and related change to not nerf picto.
The real problem in the end, is just that healer needs slightly complicated dps rotation.
@@lunesaveter8521 thats why they said tank & dps utility should be nerfed, not taken away. each role should feel like they are there for a reason, providing something unique but when you give other roles super strong buttons that take away from the healer role too much, its a problem. healers will never have a proper damage rotation, let alone complicated. they need to be able to give healing whenever its needed. imagine that you need crazy heals during 2min. they should have a few more interesting damage buttons, yes, but this also comes down to fight design, essentially allowing healers to damage nonstop. could easily pare down their support kit or like they said increase the mana cost instead of giving healers majority mana-free buttons.
Jobs should be fun. It's the means by which we experience the game. Dungeons, the MSQ and regular trials are not fun. It's boring after the first time and tedious after the third. The gameplay in XIV is absolutely atrocious the way jobs are. And healing outside of current raids is mind-numbingly boring.
I just want more variety. Give SCH back the second DoT at least, make either SGE, WHM or a new healer have a full rotation, SGE seems like the best fit though since Kardia, so there's at least one option for people that want that and one for people that don't, and they all feel different. I'm much more concerned with the jobs feeling different personally, so that when you don't need to heal, you actually have options for stuff to do and all 4 aren't just 1 button spam and a DoT.
I started FFXIV during Endwalker, a couple months before 6.2. I'd consider myself pretty casual in comparison to someone like Rinon, and I honestly have stopped playing healer out of boredom unless new content drops. Runs become either so smooth, I forget to use my dot out numbness, or I'm dragging the entire group to the finish line. There are occasions where I get that happy medium, but they're too rare for me to consider actually picking up healing during the months in between new content drops.
I'd wouldn't heal if they brought something like cleric stance back, but some complexity feels needed. You can even keep some in the state they are now, while making others more complex.
Look at magical ranged dps. You got the super simple Summoner, the intermediates Red Mage and Pictomancer, and the more complex Black Mage. Having healers divided similarly might help because right now, I'm just not engaged with healing.
I have said for years at this point that have white mage be baby healer then sage then scholar then astro in terms of difficulty
I'm kind of similar. I started in 6.0 and chose healer because Scholar looked cool and healing in WoW was fun.
And it was fun in FFXIV too, while I was still bad at it, and doing low level content.
The Bahamut raid series was my favorite for this because without the crazy suite of oGCD heals we have these days, I was regularly using manual heals. Sometimes just as much as attacks. Keeping a dot up was a challenge back then, and learning fights was a fresh struggle. I didn't even mind the one button rotation since I just came off of Classic WoW as a Mage player. Then when I actually got to endgame, I stopped having as much fun. I didn't even realize that I didn't want to play healer until I wanted to do a P9S group, and the Shield healer slot was already taken. So I joined as Black Mage, and had a lot more fun.
"I can tell you, we have said no to Raid Shadow Legends a few times."
Just like that my already high respect for you guys has risen even higher.
Let the guy get his bag lol I don’t understand this comment
He could've gotten more money but he gained respect from DeadEye364, now that's what is important.
My opinion has always been that dps should typically contribute to resource production. Blood for the blood lily, and Sage’s Kardia are good starts that should be pushed further. Using Dot uptime to charge Faerie Gauge, or Pneuma being charged by Dosis casts. Though there’s a difference between being rewarded for dps and being punished by the lack thereof. Keep the GCD heals, and mits. Add a dps price for oGCD heals as a simple start.
I generally agree, though in a different way. I think that the point of healing resources should be to optimize healing and reduce DPS downtime. That way, the mechanic is reciprocal and requires more consideration on the part of the player.
For example, imagine if every GCD on WHM charged blood lily, but Misery took the same time to cast as a PCT drawing (it would do enough damage to still refund the GCDs it took to charge it of course). Suddenly, the player is having to decide when to cash out their blood lily to make room for later healing. It's not a fire-and-forget move. It's also simple and forgiving enough to cater to casual players, while giving more experienced players more to do and consider.
Healers should have a buff combo system. Like tanks and DPS has attack combos, healers need to hit combos to get better buffs
I think this could be a cool idea
as I said on that video above, If I could fish for more critical shields as scholar, in more ways, that would be way more fun and engaging, instead of having to press a button every 180seconds that increases the damage on a target instead.
One of the things RInon doesn't really cover is the reason healers were made so much easier was there was a fairly heavy healer shortage, so they tried to make it more appealing. They added tank achievement rewards to make tanking more inviting, and they made healing easier. There still is a healer and tank shortage in queue, but it was much worse back then. I feel they over tuned it and now we have the same problem(not prevalent as it was) but for the opposite reasons(a lot of healer mains I know don't heal any more because it is "boring")
My experience as a healer has been similar to Rinon, a little different because I've been playing longer, and I mostly agree. I actually currently have issues maintaining my dot because the dps is so simple I just sorta zone out and forget to refresh the dot.
You will find that most of the healers have a more strict mana pool, however not to a point were it really feels like you actually have that restriction but you might "get low" on mana if you aren't using your tools properly(ie on sage if you aren't using addersgall becasue say for example your party isn't taking enough damage to really feel the need to spend them you will burn out on mp)
IO personally feel that astrologian is the most engaging healer currently with sch being more engaging but sage flowing better and whm just kinda being strong but feeling meh(just my opinion I've never really enjoyed playing pure healers outside of swtor which all the healers felt interesting and unique to me)
As a tank main, all I can say is good healer players are out of touch at their own tower and they forgot that the average healer literally suck at doing what you describe. Have you all tried pugging with people while queueing as a different role as your main? You will realise the majority of people can't even do the very basic of esuna which is an instant cast now. This is why SQEX has troubles in balancing jobs. Do they balance to cater the 1-5% of the player base? Or do they ignore and cater to the rest of 90% player base that just want to login do daily/weekly and log out?
I don’t understand why there’s so much angst against healers wanting more engagement. When tanks were boring as hell and people asked for a bit more engagement, nobody called them privileged or to get out of their “tower”. In fact, it’s gotten MUCH better for tanks and Dawntrail. I think it’s only fair that since tanks (including dps) are getting new toys from healers, I think it would be fair if healers also get toys from both tanks and dps.
If healers are struggling to survive then give them more defensive capabilities. Scholar should be able to shield themselves enough to eat a damn tank buster but they can’t.
Each healer class could use at least 1 or 2 more dps buttons to add to their rotation because the monotonous 111112111111 is gruesome. There’s simply not enough incoming damage to allow this type of combat.
@@cutejustice As someone who plays all roles a lot, what the original poster is getting at is just that most healers are bad. Its Far easier for me to get a purple parse on a healer( in both damage and healing) then it is for me to do the same on a dps
The number of healers that queue into duties that have trouble keeping heals going as is is crazy considering how op their kit is.
For clarity i'm in agreement that the kit is boring, and that i think there should be more interesting damage in the kit, but if square makes healing harder i would share concerns that a huge number of healers will be unable to keep up.
The vast majority of players either don't attempt savage, or don't complete it. And the worse your players are, the more damage you take and the worse your healer is at using their tools correctly.
I really noticed this in p7 for the first time, if you play roles other then healer long enough in PF, you realize that PF healers are really really bad.
Like the gap is so much bigger then any other role between good healers and bad healers, that even if i had 100 parsed in my dps it would contribute less additional damage over the average then a green/blue healer (and i could get purple often enough).
These same healers often blow all their tools on small amounts of damage, having none left when they are actually needed. Instead of getting better, they swap roles if healing gets more complex. This is what makes it hard for square, I agree healers need more buttons for damage, but its going to be a tightrope to walk when half of the player base don't manage either the 11112 rotation or to provide enough healing with the overabundance of tools they already have
@@cutejustice My personal hope would be that they make 1-2 "simple" healers and 1-2 "complex" healers
let the complex healers provide more benefits for playing them correctly, but not so much to invalidate the "simple" healers, then let people self-select to their preference
@@cutejustice honestly on healer i would be happy if all they gave us is 1 or 2 more dps buttons, maybe one with a 15-20s cd and one that is a combo action with the main attack.
I really don't feel any lack in White Mage game play. I'm not doing any extreme content I can't unsync power through as Gunbreaker. And I felt plenty challenged in Dawntrail normal content. I don't want more buttons on my bars, I am fine with casting Glare a lot and watching the tells because I have attention issues. I'm not bored, I'm happy to have the extra bits of time needed to watch mechanics.
I'm really surprised that people associate "engaging gameplay" with "more buttons and more difficulty". Adding synergies to existing kits takes away nothing from casual to mid core players and adds an additional avenue of tinkering for people who want to really get the most out of their jobs. Like imagine a world in which having shields broken as sage actually gave you more damage. The job doesn't become more complicated, but it does now have a reward for a well placed mit. Things like that don't add to the kit for people who don't care.
And why does doing difficult content automatically mean the take is elitist? That part never made sense to me. It seems like folks are jumping immediately to "this person wants double the buttons", but my takeaway is "this person wants the buttons we have to matter"
Yeah... it was wild reading what some of the chatters had to say about things. Someone said "So Rinon wants healing to always feel chaotic and like everything is falling apart." I don't understand how people could be so oblivious to what's being said in a video they're literally watching before their eyes. Something doesn't have to be hard to be fun, people, we're just looking for a little bit more to add some folds to our brains.
Agreed. If anything, I think healer kits are unnecessarily bloated atm compared to their complexity. It's a lot of buttons to do the same basic functions with very little deviation. The amount of similar oGCD buttons healers have atm is astounding. The current differences feel more like gimmicks than anything else.
This whole thing would be solved by just better job design I feel. Improve how healing functions and how engaging it is to actually press my healing buttons, and we're good.
@@pstmdrn_werewolf I think the issue is a fear that adding that bit more will also mean adding to the difficulty of encounters to account for the top 1% or 10% (ab)using the extra bit to its full capacity. That is, what the elite see as making it more engaging just about 100% mandates also making things more difficult, or else it's going to do nothing to appease the people complaining about being bored. I'm not sure how you can A make things more complex/engaging, B, keep things manageable for the average player, and C avoid this making content easier. I feel like you can probably pick 2 of the three options, not all three.
@@williamknudson8414 that's a reasonable fear, but realistically speaking healers are over-equipped for most content. For hardcore players, anything that shows up in a roulette or EX is fairly routine, and I think that even if they want harder content *they don't want it there*. They want it at the top end, which most people don't end up seeing. Increasing the difficulty of content across the board doesn't make a lot of sense if the fear is the tastes of the hardcore players, because the odds that hardcore players want ALL content to be hardcore is very low. I don't know that I consider myself hardcore, but I think i qualify in most people's opinions. I don't want everyday content to be difficult, but I would like my job in difficult content to be more interesting.
Because at the end of the day, it's true that job difficulty and encounter design will always be linked. But I also think its true that casual content is casual because it does not punish you as harshly for mistakes. If healers as a whole get more capable and fights get more difficult as a result, that could be a problem. But the changes to healer would need to be MASSIVE to see that all the way down to leveling, AR, and Normal Raid roulettes, because each of those are designed in a way where you don't need to be perfect to complete the content (this may be hyperbole, but in my mind in order for current casual to midcore content to see a serious spike in difficulty, casual to midcore players would need to have a kit that puts them on par with current hardcore players without having to optimize every single aspect of their rotation).
@@williamknudson8414 I truly do not believe it would make anything more difficult for the majority of the player base. I've done so many dungeons with healers that don't use a single damage ability. I've asked a scholar to use broil before and they literally said no, extending the length of the dungeon and only using healing spells. How is that making things more complex for the normal player?
Even if you consider someone slightly above average who is pretty decent at their job but doesn't do extremes or savage surely knows how to optimize their healing in, say, an alliance roulette, in which case they're mostly using glare/broil etc anyways, and will have all the more time to learn whatever new abilities they are given without having a mental breakdown.
30:00 those cooldown orders matter more in ultimates and week 1 savages and the answer for what your order should be for healer tools is dependent on the timeline of the specific fight and getting more usages or making sure cooldowns cover a particularly hard heal/mitigation check. Generally rule of thumb though, put shields on hard hitting single attacks and mitigation cooldowns on damage overtime or multi hit attacks.
I hope people dont paint Rinon as a pessimistic person here- Rinon actually makes a very salient critique of Healers. In general, Rinon is quite reasonable when it comes to healer talk imo
As much as I agree with Rinon's opinion, I think as a whole this has happened to all jobs in FF14 from after Stormblood onwards, it just feels more obvious on healers, as someone who use to play DPS roles, i find them extremely dull nowadays as a lot of the mini optimizations you can do have been removed, as soon as you have cleaned up a mechanic there isn't much to really think about after that unless you switch to an uptime strat from w1 early blind strat.
Since i've mained healer for expansion and a bit, i still find healer enjoyable but it gets more dull than the other roles as soon as it goes on farm and people ain't dead or being hit by random stuff, the oGCD are so strong from both healers and to a point, the rest of the group you can normally recovery or cheese mechanics very easily that you rarely if ever GCD heal.
i'd like to see bosses use more minor attacks to force oGCDs so your choices are thinner or you need to GCD heal even in farm, i don't think a boss should do 2 - 5 tank busters for a whole fight, it ends up being kitchen skins/invuls and nothing else really, i think it would make tank and healer synergies more engaging if you need to be constancy prepared.
i also really agree with his comments about blood lily, i don't think all healers should get cast 3 heals do big damage ability, but having heals help you do damage or maybe successful esuna'ing debuffs gives buffs to allies could be some cool ideas, right now you end up finding how little GCD heals you can use (like going shieldless on sge/sch) to fit more broil casts or your spending your resources on damage instead of supporting like with spirit drain.
Personally, I love playing White Mage and don't find it boring at all. I think part of that is because I don't really feel a lot of "engagement" with rotations to begin with.
I play XIV a lot. I got all jobs to 90, working them to 100 now, and have run around 8,000 dungeons. Pressing the same button combos all the time always gets boring for me at some point. But I like WHM specifically because there's no rotation. It's all reaction based. And the new content has been a lot more fun for healing because the bosses are trickier, there's more raidwides from mobs, there's just more to have to react to. I enjoyed playing healer in past content, but DT has been on point for normal content!
I love being able to just glare spam so I can focus entirely on the mechanics and my party. Cause THAT'S where the fun is to me. The mechanics are WAY more engaging than the rotation I've done the same way in every duty. There are some jobs like DNC that have a proc-based rotation, but it's still just following the same route with different cut off points. Which is fine, I just don't find it very engaging personally. I would much prefer a simpler rotation with more engaging duties.
All that said, I think variety is something XIV does best, so maybe having having one "simple" healer and one "engaging" healer job would work. There are two regen healers and two shield healers, keep WHM as the simple one and make AST more engaging. They already have a great baseline for that. Same for Scholar and Sage. I think this might be a good solution, but I know it's easier said than done.
Anyway, just my two cents. This is how I feel as a WHM main of 5 years.
Also on the "it doesn't matter which tool u use for healing" point. Basically the only time i've heard my healers in my static actually legitimately plan what gets used when, was in "On content ultimate fights" So only when doing the absolute hardest content in the game, in the patch that it came out, did they actually care, and they still hardly ever had to use a GCD to heal.
Scholar "avoids" that a bit with some of their skills locking them out of others, but it basically turns into using one set on one pull and the other set on the next pull.
@ what exactly do u mean by pull in this context?
@@drewmalekith4614 One set of mobs in a dungeon, usually a few packs. There are typically two pulls between each boss.
@ brother did u read my initial comment at all? I literally said that my healers were saying they don’t have to plan for anything outside of on content ultimates. I was talking about the furthest possible thing from dungeon pulls…
@@drewmalekith4614 Yeah, I gave an example of where they do need to plan a bit.
I'm personally fine with healing and do it regularly. For healers there are two halves to encounters, dealing with the encounter itself and dealing with the party. That's why I enjoy it more than other roles and what I feel is missing from much of the current healer conversation. It's that split focus where healer engagement happens and where situations are way less scripted.
That’s not missing out of the conversation at all. Because of the scripted nature of the fights, you already know what’s coming so can already preplan your healing mits. The issue happens during the execution. There’s barely much to keep you occupied. It would be nice if healers had more party buffs or anything they can use as a throwaway just to keep some form of engagement but all they have is 1 dot, 1 damage on loop. If this existed, it wouldn’t really change much of the game. Casual healers today can’t press 1 button every single 120 seconds so if these other buttons existed it would’ve been ignored by them but at least it gives other healers something to do.
@@cutejustice This happens in statics, but a lot less in PF. One component to this discussion is that the gap between healing a decent party, and a good party is huge. And the gap between a bad party and a decent one is even larger
The thing you are describing happens in statics or pfs of good players. In the decent parties, you can make up the difference depending on your skill as a healer.
In a bad party, you don't have enough tools at all.
The issue is most pfs are only decent, and most healers are not good enough to fill that difference.
Even in a bad statics people make the same mistakes a lot, so you can predict that but in PF you get a new group all the time.
So rinon here is suffering from 2x "skill privilege" things are easier for him then average healers, and those he plays with take less avoidable damage making the job even easier.
Does not make the problem any less real, but it does make the solution much more difficult. (a few extra engagement buttons with mild impact is the easiest thing they could add, but i don't think people would be happy with that)
Personally, while I do enjoy healer as it is right now, thats really only because I play it so infrequently, I don't think they are in a very good place. This isn't a "I'm so good at them thing" either I've never even brought a healer to ex/savage, I do those on tank and DPS. To me all the healers feel basically the same, with only fairly minor differences, mainly in how you move of all things. Healing buttons tend to all generally be sortable into "Single target" or "AoE", and thats really it. Sure some have slightly more situational use but they can often still fit in interchangeably with most other heals and in 90% of the game it really does not what heal you use for what. The part of the kit I spend most of my time interacting with, the DPS part, feels entirely identical for every healer. It's clear in DT they were trying to differentiate them at a little, but in baby steps so small they barely moved. I basically agree with Rinon 100% specialty on the part that healing and DPS kits should have some interactions, as WHM is currently one of my favorites specifically due to how lilies interact with the DPS kit.
I also want to point out that after a quick glance at the comments most of the arguments against his video fall into two category's: "But I like healer as it is now" and/or "Rinons is wrong because they are good at the game". To address the first point, I don't understand why people get stuck on this, everyone can win here, there are multiple classes in this game and if they were to do a sweeping rework to healers it would simply make sense to leave one or two healers with a playstyle similar to what they have right now. Part of the complaints are specifically about how healers all feel the same, differentiating doesn't mean abandoning the current style, but add different styles to suit different taste, we can all get what we want here.
To address the second point if you argument is "Your opinion isn't valid because you are good at the game" you should really stop and take a long hard think about how bad of a argument that is. How can anyone claim, that something should get boring as you get good at it, thats terrible design. Look fatigue is fatigue but thats not at all what this is, if that's your claim here you didn't watch the video and just assumed most of the points. If you make a game that can only be fun if you're bad at it, you'll quickly find all of you most dedicated players leaving.... which is what seems to be happening in the high end right now. This "Casual Vs hardcore" bull is so infuriating to me, we all play the same game. I want healers to be more interactive, and more interesting in all scenarios, not just when things are going wrong, or for players who haven't yet learned how to play well. This doesn't mean that we need to abandon the current style, or make things "More harder" just that I should have choices to make that matter, even when things are going well.
Based
100% agree!
As a tank main, I find that mits are WAY too strong at the moment. Between shields, self-sustain, damage reductions, there are few situations that we can't handle by ourselves. War can solo most dungeons on release. As a PLD I have 3 sources of shield, 5 sources of damage mitigation, 2 sources of healing as part of optimal play, as well the ability to just ignore certain mechanics with invuln. If I dump everything I can survive a 2-stack TB in savage, and PLD isn't even the best. Tanks just invalidate a huge amount of challenge with their current abilities.
I go into something like Jeuno as a healer and I feel so useless not having anything that mitigates as a WHM. I have my wings, I have the shield after those wings, and I have Aqua Veil and 2 Benisons for single targets. That's it. Offload some of the mit on tanks and give it to me, if you're going to give tanks some healing.
We've done expert roulettes with 3 DPS and a tank, with little to no deaths. I can see where Rinon is coming from. Higher content, sure! Regular dungeons, not as important as we'd hope.
I rather be in and out in 15 minutes vs spending 40 minutes in a dungeon.
@@grygaming5519but if you’re a healer you want to be useful right?
My issue with healing is the sheer amount of tank healing just makes my class redundant. Like, i could use say tetra on the paladin who just ate a tank buster with zero mitigation..... or i could let the warrior who naturally wants to use nascent on him do that.
I COULD cast a cure 3 to get the party through this raid wide...... or we could let the warrior headbut his shake it off key and heal the entire aoe by himself.
I could fix the dragoons fuck up of walking in the fire.... or the gunbreaker could aurora him at no cost.
I started playing this game at the very start of shadowbringers, and began raiding at the end of the first tier of endwalker. I’m a healer main that beat this most recent tier on Astro, but have done clears in other tiers on almost every role.
I agree with the video and its points. In a raid, even higher end, unless something goes wrong I have less fun than when I’m playing other jobs. When everything is going smoothly, you just spam your dps button over and over. I main Astro because the cards are at least something to do during burst with lots of double weaving, but it is nowhere near as much fun as doing a dps or even tank rotation.
In dungeons my friends and I did 3 dps 1 tank runs since lapis and it probably was possible before then. As a Samurai I can just stand in bad aoes and heal myself without healer support, why would I play healer to spam one button when I could have more fun playing other jobs while completing the dungeon faster
I don’t have a solution, I just have my experiences. I never felt this way in Shadowbringers, but I think this is more of a skill gap than a job development issue for my case. I started playing at a similar time to my friends and if the people around you are better at mitting, they take less damage and have less need of healing and so I needed to heal less.
What I want is more meaningful decisions. Right now I press one of ten options, it’s good enough and I don’t need to do anything until the next mechanic 30 seconds later. 2 minutes later, I’ve pressed maybe half of my options and they’re coming up off of cooldown while I have unused buttons sitting there. Star and Assize are just dps buttons with a bonus heal if the fight designers choose to line things up.
Again, I don’t have a solution. I don’t know how to make it better without having real consequences elsewhere. Making healing harder would be fun for me but stressful for others. I just want something to do or think about
I watched this video a few days ago and thought it was very good. He raises a lot good points, IMO. I can't speak to what all has been lost since I've only been healing since late SB, but his points hold up against my (better) experiences healing in other MMOs.
Jobs have gotten overall easier but this perspective also comes from someone who does Deep Dungeon, Savage, Ex and Ultimate Content over the space of years.
After you clear savage/ultimate content, regular encounters are going to be a snooze because you have optimally learned your rotation/tool kit as well as comprehension of mechanics.
Im all for healers getting more DPS buttons but having to track: Party HP, Mana, Multiple DOTs, Cleric Stances, Raid Mechanics, OGCDs and Boss Mechanics sounds like a nightmare.
DPS have to track all of that except for Party HP. I don't see why healers shouldn't have to do the same/ aren't being forced to do the same.
But realistically, healers' ogcds aren't being tracked unless they're damaging ogcds and mana literally isn't being tracked. You either press lucid dreaming or you don't. That's the only decision affecting mana for healers. All other kinds of mana interactions healer have, they interact with naturally over the course of the fight with no real thought being put into it.
It's not hard tracking that, you would eventually get a feel for it over time. What would be hard is having to do a complex DPS rotation while also paying attention to what everyone else is doing and doing the fight mechanics. A few more damaging oGCDs wouldn't hurt, but giving healers a DPS rotation like a DPS job is not the solution.
Speaking as someone who has cleared every ultimate, clears the savage tier week 1, and regularly helps out with ultimate clear for ones, I die at least once or twice per expert roulette.
We're still fallible human beings. If you see anyone with a "legend" title that doesn't mean they're better than you, it just means they are an incredibly stubborn player.
While I don’t think cleric stances should ever come back, you already have to keep up with most if not all of things you said already, and it’s still kind of stale. Why not add some more flavor?
There's a reason the Warrior of Light is never a healer in the trailers. All he'd be doing is standing there throwing a rock and occasionally sparkling at someone. Or not being able to heal a certain Elezen.
You barely even see healers do anything in cutscenes 😂
I for one like that all the jobs have so many tools to deal with stuff since most of ppl out there dont know half of their kits anyway so the other half can cover for the more clueless ones.
Rinon's perspective i find to be from a super tiny community that both mastered their jobs and play mostly with others that have done so as well where everyone knows how to use all of their tools properly. So many ppl i encounter that don't know what Feint is or removed Addle from their hotbar and it starts to stack the difficulty pretty fast.
Also you can't add more difficulty to the healer role as ppl already struggle, if you don't have a consistent static what you have to do in a fight changes drastically for healers already and you can't have healer - an already rare species - have even more responsibility in the fights as even more ppl would be just fed up with both pressure of playing well and more importantly the frustration with other ppl doing poorly making their life even harder.
When you look at the beautiful logs in the forest you could imagine that best runs out there are assigned grey numbers in the healing score and the difference between grey and pink is from 50% to double the healing values, for a healer to reach those they'd have had to have the most cursed runs out there and you'd have to remember the logs in the woods show only the successful runs.
At the end of the day, healer's difficulty lies in other players' performance which by default is a very cursed position to be in and honestly the best gameplay-wise change they could get would be a complete removal of healer role and change their kits into more dps like meanwhile boosting all other dps kits to have more healing to offset removal of the healing role which i'd imagine no healer player would like to see being implemented but that's the curse of healers in multiplayer games, the difficulty is simply in other people making the role impossible to balance for fun for everyone.
I completely disagree just add one thing that each healer can optimize won't make all the bad players worse they are already bad. People just 1 more thing to do instead of 11111112 the entire fight. Adding that won't break the game.
@@charizardgamez447 Okay, let's say we add 3 to your 11112 string, or even let's be brave and give a full 123 with a 4 for DoT. Does that actually solve the problem? Does it make you more engaged?
Every 123 combo in the game may as well be the same button, because unless you explicitly fatfinger it, you ALWAYS do it correctly. There is exactly zero skill expression in following the shiny whether you do the basic VPR combo or DRK combo, you just press the shiny and that's it. That's how this game is built, so even if they added extra damage abilities, it's an illusory change that in no way addresses the actual issue behind videos like this.
It won't break the game. SE could add those extra abilities tomorrow. It would simply change NOTHING about healers or their enjoyment, just add extra buttons to your bar.
@thesunthrone you are right. The problem doesn't get fixed, but that would still be better than nothing, and that's how bad it is. I saw some having 123 that just buffs healing, that could be interesting.
@@charizardgamez447 In other words, you want novelty, not solutions. 123 + 4 being functionally the same yet feeling slightly different is preferable to you ONLY because currently it's 111 + 4. Yet functionally, it is the exact same mechanism at play. Absolutely NOTHING changes but the superficial feeling of it.
As for the stacking healing buff, again, you name something that seemingly sounds novel, but does not address any issue at all - especially when in this video the big healer problem is that they don't NEED to heal as much as the video author would want. Your proposed design would only make that further the case, with there being even LESS heals cast.
But then, the video in question as a whole is less about healer jobs and more about the video author's burnout from the game.
@thesunthrone one, he's not burned. The design around healing had changed, and not for the better
Two, I'm not a game dev. These are some ideas. I'm sure the people at SquarePants can hear this type of feedback and come up with something interesting. Having some novelty would really help part of the biggest problem for is the feeling of just spamming one button so I'm looking for solutions to that I would want 1 more thing added to the kit that I can think about don't know what.
Other than when I healed for the first time with SCH in ARR, Stormblood AST was the most engaged I was with a healer. Having all the cards do unique things, and you could alter them by doing things like make them an AOE with less effectiveness, or extend the buff timer, it was so good. But people love optimizing the fun out of stuff and only wanted Balance, when I loved trying to figure out what I wanted to do on the fly. I look at the cards now, 4 of the 6 read like they go onto the tank, and the other two are DPS.
I also don't see why we can't have certain jobs healing just be more complex than another, instead of them being similar levels. If I want to DPS and turn my brain off, I go SMN. If I want to press buttons, I'll stay on MNK. If I feel like tanking, I go WAR because I don't really have to think that much. I'm leveling DRK right now and I feel like I have so many more buttons and cooldowns to keep track of, even though people talk like it's basically WAR just because you can press a button and do a move a few times.
The more I watch this, the more I realise this guy seems to just be raid-brained and completely disengaged from the casual player experience. He's been savage/ultimate raiding since Heavensward. The vast majority of players are on a different level to him, and that isn't a bad thing.
Not sure if this would help because I don't consider myself casual (anymore), but I first started in late HW and didn't actually get into raiding until stormblood. My healer of choice was Astro and I picked it up aside from whm and sch at the time because it just had better support abilities (time mage stuff on top of it being nice aesthetically). I was already better than most players even at a casual level, but exdeath min ilvl actually kinda broke me. I didn't come into it without some experience either, I healed all of Deltascape except for the 2nd tier with it and sch (I miss miasma 2 bargaining). Granted, I was still a sprout - but the black hole phase reducing max HP and rotating insta-kill tethers was something I was NOT prepared to heal for.
SQEX has always had this issue until more recently where normal content could be somewhat facerolled, but the raids had a difficulty spike that did not reflect the majority of gameplay. This isn't helped by the fact that raid roulettes are not truly "roulletes", so much as them being a designated pool of instances the devs enable to be randomly picked, because I am pretty sure I've almost never seen coils of bahamut post HW, I have only seen Odin twice ever since playing for nearly a decade, stuff like that. And the devs consider Odin to be this in-between of normal and EX difficulty. Unfortunately that means it just gets caught in que limbo.
I'll tell you one thing, I NEVER asked SQEX to make the job(s) less complicated, even though I play astro on controller (yes I'm insane lol). But they seem to really take issue with people not being able to use whichever job they want in hard content due to complexity. The worst part about all of it isn't merely the fact that our damage options were gutted, but our support effects got dumbed down so much that it killed me to see all of the changes in SHB. Ranged DPS also began to atrophy from lack of identity while Dancer just hogged all the spotlight. Like, why remove haste on astro and sch, why remove mana shift on casters, why just make almost every and all support abilities only mitigation or % damage up? It's not only lazy but disappointing.
If we all do damage in this game, I want to experiment with different ways of applying it. Like giving a black mage a Stormblood AST Arrow (Royal Roaded for 50% extra buff potency) and watch them BRRR fire IVs in ley lines
Nobody I have played this game with has ever said that they don't miss SB AST. It makes me genuinely wonder who SQEX listens to.
I'm one of those healers that tend to play healer because no one else wants to. That an a lot of the time healers aren't given healer only mechanics; like healing the dragon heads during Shinriyu extreme. I enjoy healing in fights when I know the mechanics or when I'm certain that I'm on the same wave length as my pairs partner. Or back during T4 that I was again in tune with what my group's OT was doing while watching everyone else. Now that's not to say I haven't had a dopamine rush when I still don't know the mechanics and the room is on fire. It's just not my preferred way of getting said rush. I don't mind if a fight is completed without me if the boss is at a low HP% or if myself and the rest of the group (or most of the group) are struggling so much that it's a time saver. I do however don't enjoy it when a person chooses to solo or duo a boss with high health and most of the group is doing it for the 1st time. Because then it comes off as showboating or not allowing others to learn how to do a fight.
While I think there is certain merit in discussing what could be improved about healers, I also think it's worth keeping in mind that NOTHING will feel the same after doing it for ten years or more. No job (real one, the kind that gets you paid in cash money outside FF), no hobby, no game. Our bodies adapt to the stresses we put on it, or they break. But generally, everything we do, we get used to, no matter how difficult, hard, fun, unfun etc. After some time we just need a change, even if objectively everything is fine, because that's just what our monkey brains tell us to do.
Would healers be made more engaging if you had to press 123 for damage and 4 and maybe even 5 for DoT skills while also healing? Probably, yes. Would that actually solve the issue long term? Absolutely not, because it is NOT the core issue.
What Rinon says about healers, the whole "unless you are a complete beginner" spiel applies to every single video game. They all have mastery curves that ultimately stop. Video games can NEVER be infinitely fulfilling. By design, they are limited, you are only ever progressing within the guidelines the designer has given you and deemed acceptable. This is where the long time player frustration always comes from, even if it's unconscious - they KNOW they have fully exhausted the potential of this game, and don't know what to do further. There is no fulfillment, because ultimately, all they have done is mastered a video game. It feels bad, because ultimately it is a reminder that those ten years could have been spent towards mastering something else that is applicable in more ways than just while the servers of the video game are running. But since few people want to admit that to themselves, instead they find issues in how the game currently is, what's currently an issue and hyperfocus on it on a degree that cannot be solved by the game's developers, no matter how they tried.
Games are fun. Progressing together with others is great fun. But staking your happiness on the decisions of companies and developers that simply cannot give you what you want - that is only going to result in endless disappointment. If you ever are in the "I have played XYZ for 10 years, it's no longer fun like it used to" camp, that's not a problem with whatever game you play, even if objectively you can draw problems in the game.
I think one thing Rin is not understanding from this conversation is that healers being less busy (and thus less engaging) when everything is going right is by design. It *should* be like that. Why? Because since healers are primarily responsible for recovery when something goes wrong, it means that 1) They have to have extra tools beyond what's needed to clear the fight, otherwise they wouldn't have any available tools to handle when something goes wrong, and 2) if they are as fully engaged when everything is going right as other jobs, dealing with a recovery, which is by definition unexpected outside of prog, becomes too taxing. Because you can't plan for unexpected recovery situations, having to diagnose and respond correctly in real time can be far more complex than what any other job will face. Healers need to have the bandwidth available to them to deal with that.
Some jobs are consistently engaging throughout the encounter. Other jobs are longer periods of boredom mixed in with moments of extreme stress. Rin clearly prefers the former, but some people may prefer the latter. Everyone complains about the homogenization of jobs, but making healers the same as everyone else in terms of engagement is just another way to say the game should be homogenized in yet another aspect.
Some healer jobs are more complex than others. AST is the obvious example. AST is supposed to be the healing job for people who want more engagement throughout the encounter. So, if changes should be made for people who want to heal but be more engaged throughout, then maybe AST is where changes can be made. But the existence of more straightforward healing jobs is by design, and imo, shouldn't change.
Yes except if you're gonna do that, commit to it. Healers have 15 different buttons for healing and they use none of them in any non-extreme content, and only the oGCD/DPS positive ones in extreme/savage.
I used to remember a time (been playing since 2015, right before hw came out) when people complained that parties should have more tools to survive if a healer goes down. I guess it happened and now healers are complaining? Can't make everyone happy i guess. I play all jobs and also run hard content, also play casually so I'm indifferent tbh.
Garrett comes back to Kyle's hot takes and the rioters picketing outside Grinding Gear Studios.
I think a big issue I have with this is that the view is too short-sighted.
I think this can't just be looked at as "How do we make healers more engaging?" when part of the issue is how they've reduced the workload of them consistently in low-end content. By Shadowbringers, all the tanks have a quick mitigation tool. Two offer flat mit (Sheltron/Heart of Stone), one offers shields (TBN), and one... offers mit and a decent heal for EVERY INSTANCE OF DAMAGE A GCD CREATES (Raw Intuition). Moving into Endwalker, this gets balanced by adding a new oGCD mit with multiple charges (Oblation)... and giving everyone else either an additional form of self-sustain on top of an even stronger mitigation (Holy Sheltron got a regen, Heart of Corundum got a decent Excog) or even more mitigation without nerfing their self-sustain (Bloodwhetting gained a shield). This isn't even looking into how PLD also gained a bunch of non-committal GCD healing through Holy Spirit/Circle buffs and the Confiteor combo, or how both PLD and WAR have raid-mits that both heal the party as well.
I think if the tanks were tuned more to DRK's general amounts of self-sustain back in 7.0, you'd probably just need a small expansion of the healer role's DPS kits to make them more engaging at all levels. That said, I can't say for certain the general community is ready for them to take on that level of responsibility.
I honestly just find playing healer very stressful, so I tend to avoid it. I'm still going to get all the healer jobs up to 100, but I'm saving them until last because of that stress factor.
My personal take on this is as a casual and kinda newish player. In PvE, I stick to normal fights like dungeons and normal raids, sometimes dipping my feet in some extreme or unreal trials for a bit of extra fun. I enjoy healing and don't see much problem with it at my level except for one thing. For raids and trials, I usually have fun and get to do my healer stuff. Recently doing the level 100 dungeons, however, there's something left to be desired. Most of the time I feel like nothing is happening, I feel like I barely have to heal at all especially in trash pulls, which leaves me with just doing damage which isn't exactly that engaging. I don't mind the simple damage rotations, but only when I get to have an engaging healing experience.
Again, this is simply my perspective. I'm not a savage raider. The points made in the video seem to be mostly in context to higher-level stuff, which I do not regularly participate in. However, for casual content, I quite enjoy healing, but high-level dungeons and a lot of other dungeons just aren't engaging to heal. Maybe I'm just lucky by getting god tanks, but either way, I'd like to see these things get better.
They could add mech like doom and other cleansing debuff that will give them more to do in fights. They have defensive cooldowns like divine benison and aqua veil. Give them more reasons to use them. You also run the issue of player that want to green dps and be mad if making them do things outside of that happens. So the role healer has the fantasy of healing and keeping the party alive and well. Any gameplay they add should reflect this. If they give them more dps then that moves them further away the healing role they should be doing. Right now its im a dps that can heal instead of im a heal that can dps. The only time it feels like the later is in savage and ultimate, though the new ex feels closer to savage healing so it a step in the right direction.
Dungeons were harder in ARR if you ask me. I remember pulling every mob at once in Adampor and Wanderer's Palace. Getting Pharos sirius on the roulette? Wow you were in for a rough time. It's been years since I've been challenged in any way by a FFXIV dungeon as a healer. When a tank DC or AFK I can quite literally heal a dps and we keep pulling if one does enough damage to keep threat solely on them.
I'll throw my take into the ring. Make one or two of the healers have a very, very slightly more complex rotation you can -opt into- like a Black Mage. Look at it this way; nobody cares if you're a Black Mage that does a non-standard rotation vs the standard one, and the damage gain usually isn't the most impactful comparatively. That being said, if it's optional for those who -want- to get more out of the class, then realistically, nobody should have a problem with that. And given that Black Mage (a DPS Class) doesn't squeak out that much more damage when doing non-standard, the difference for having slightly more nuance for a healer will be even less impactful, but still keep things varied on an individual level.
As long as the changes touted don't scare people off from healing anymore than they already do, and if it's only on one or two of them, the others will still act as an accessible gateway. More options, non-enforced!
When the meter to judge a healer to be good or bad how less it heals in a fight, the problem the. It’s the player not the job.
I fully agree with Rinon on these points; healing nor DPS'ing as a healer is engaging, therefore the entire package of a healer just...isn't engaging. Even fight design ramping up does little to combat this as everyone else (especially tanks) has so much they can draw upon that you rarely need to fall back onto any of your toolkit properly. That and healers themselves have way too many 'free' answers to issues that arise - you never ever have to GCD heal because you ALWAYS have an oGCD up to top everyone off, even if there was a gigantic fuck-up somewhere in the fight.
I personally miss old SCH that had all of the DOT's, Shadow Flare AND Bane to spread them all around. It was an engaging side activity to do alongside healing (because healing certainly wasn't going to be engagin alongside fight design at the time). Heck, when they stripped us back to two DOT's per healer that was still engaging as you still had two different-length timers to worry about and juggle. Now you apply your DOT and burn the key you've bound to your one damage skill into your keyboard so hard it might cease to be.
I don't want healing to become some megamind job that only the top-end players would enjoy, but when you strip the engagement out of BOTH sides of a healer (healing and DPS) then you are not doing much in a fight outside of burning a hole into your keyboard or control pressing that one single button over and over with the occassional second button to refresh your DOT. Something has to give on one side or the other; either make the healing or damage more engaging. The real winner would be to make BOTH sides more engaging, but I highly doubt that'll happen.
I'm a white mage main and I've no complaints with the kit. I don't think the answer is "Make them harder to play". As someone who doesn't do high end raiding etc it would just turn me off my preferred class playing the content I choose to play.
This clearly comes from the perspective of someone who plays the game for a competitive challenge whilst most players enjoy the game at a more casual pace.
It's disheartening if I die and the tank can solo the rest of the fight. I think it's a problem with tanks survivability.
It's an interesting topic of discussion and I enjoy hearing other peoples thoughts :)
tl;dr imo, they should buff healing, massively scale back the ogcd/insta-cast healing stuff, and focus more on resource management/dot uptime/comboing offense into healing.
I have a lot of experience with healing in ffxiv (I've healed in savage in every expansion but DT). I'm of the opinion that healing was decent in ARR, where you had to carefully manage your MP and regularly use cure-1 for sheer efficiency reasons, and free-cure procs would always feel great. DPSing felt awkward, but you didn't have the resources to dps all the time so it was more something to do if damage was especially low.
For HW, healing became miserable but got better over time. With extremely tight dps checks, you had to dps, but cleric stance made it miserable to do so, astro started off too weak to be functional, and outgoing damage was extremely spikey. Combine that with tanks using dps accessories and never touching tank stance, and you could watch your tank go from full to dead in 2 GCD's even through mitigation. By the final tier, this wasn't as much an issue, where they eased back on dps checks and damage stopped feeling so insanely spikey.
I am of the opinion SB was the best for endgame in FFXIV history. For healers, you no longer had accuracy to worry about (a godsend because your gear didn't natively have it), and cleric stance no longer made you choose between dpsing or healing and effectively locking you out of the other for a few seconds. It had an issue in that heals were insanely powerful, but the mechanics were built with this in mind so it felt like you and your co-healer + tanks solving mechanics as a group by looking at what your toolbox had to offer. To make it even better, you had more dps buttons to press and various things to do. I especially loved healing as a scholar in this expansion, even if my favorite fight I actually healed as a whm (and loved how good whm's kit was for it).
The issues with healers started in ShB, as far as I am concerned. In ShB, they gave all accessories vit. As a result, people had around 35% more hp (you can verify it by unequipping your accessories and comparing hp to with accessories). Enemy damage scaled up to compensate, so you felt like you had the exact same amount of hp, but... Heals didn't scale at all. The end result was all heals ended up being technically weaker (in terms of how much % hp they healed), and this was compensated for by giving us more OGCD's/instant casts. Instead of casting cure-2, you'd throw down a solace (instant cure-2) and a tetra (OGCD cure-2). MP management no longer existed at all because those OGCD's/instants rarely used MP, and were your main mp usage.
With ShB, healing went from feeling like a toolkit of powerful abilities, to feeling like you were throwing the kitchen sink at damaged party members to heal them back up. Oh, and because you have all these new OGCD/instant cast skills, they took away most of your dps skills. So dpsing (which swapped from something you did during downtime to the standard) became even more boring, and... That was all you did. Also, as a fun side effect, emergency healing (healing when things start to go wrong) somehow became harder and more annoying to do because it no longer felt like your kit was designed to handle it.
Every expansion since ShB has just been ShB with a but. Endwalker endgame is just ShB but they slightly buffed some heal potencies. DT endgame is just Endwalker but enemies have better mechanics and hit harder. Your buttons are functionally the same. You got a couple new toys in DT but it doesn't fix the issues introduced in ShB. And... I don't think we will ever fix those issues, because people are of the opinion healing is OP because you can throw 5 OCGD's/insta-casts at a problem to immediately heal someone to full, when the actual issue is healing is so weak that you need to throw multiple OGCD's/insta-casts to immediately heal someone to full.
It's funny that you mention MP management. Going back to the old MP standards would also fix a bit of the melding issues Ff14 has now. Having mana be a lot more difficult to manage would encourage people to meld piery, even just a little bit which ideally would be reverted to its old use which was mana regen amount. At least that way it wouldn't be the same old crit, dh, det melds across all classes.
@@luckytanuki5449 Did you know back in ARR, whm actually preferred det over crit? Crit scaling wasn't especially good at the time, and det scaling was insanely good, so sch and whm strait up had different stat priorities (whm didn't care about crit but loved piety and det, sch didnt care about piety and loved crit and liked det). It was actually pretty interesting how different they were. This... Went away by HW, of course, but it was interesting while it lasted.
Also if you want to hear something fun: in ARR, lalafell were the best black mages because they naturally had more piety, literally just enough to squeeze 1 more fire 1 into their rotation.
@uberpinkwarrior Nah I didn't, I started beginning of stormblood so I was there for the still more skill expression gameplay, but thankfully not for the extremely awful parts like cross class progression. Hell, aggro generation and aggro pool's were already pretty miserable. But that's my point, materia needs to be fixed too and changing things slightly with healer could be that change to make it more unique.
Healers, and all classes, have gotten smoother over time because between Heavensward and Stormblood, the game changed its design mentality from complex classes with simple fights, to simple classes with complex fights. The raids back then were very simple in comparison to the complex dances that exist today. The difficult came from razor thin margins in class upkeep mechanics and movement challenges (everyone remembers the cast times Bard and Machinist had, yes? lol).
Personally, ive loved healing in Dawntrail. The alliance raid is a blast to heal.
What people don't seem to understand is that Rinon is not asking to raise the skill floor, they are asking to raise the skill ceiling. Is the healer you're playing easy and fun? Great! Here's a handful of things you can optimize slowly but surely. Is the encounter getting too chaotic? Then don't focus on your DPS and focus on your healing, chances are, nobody is parsing you or even cares.
Based
Except at that point the same .01% of healers will master the new celling and complain again. You cannot at all make these people happy, and you know what they will never be happy at all.
@@grygaming5519 so never try then? The state right now is really bad it feels like there's no ceiling to healers at all people just asking for something to to keep them engage that's not a big ask.
@@grygaming5519 Oh yeah the hardcore players are just so evil and mean and they'll never be happy so we should never listen to them! How dare they be good at the game and make me feel self conscious about my own skills!
Afternoon all o/
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That moment when you cant join the convo as a healer main because you like non-standard partycomp envoirnments more so most knowledge and experience you have is stuck in an extremely niche corner of the game
I feel like its ok to say that healers are....ehhh? in FFXIV...I mean it is not a bad to say "Hey, so what are we doing as healers in this content besides healing the least amount we can, and dpsing in downtime between mechanics that hit hard..." There are people who either ignore or are apologists for the role of healer being played incorrectly, not saying that as a way of calling out sprouts or anything, but it is quite obvious that dps is a part of the healer role kit, because literally there is nothing to do at times as a healer...and yet we have all of these cool spells, and then...we use half of them? Or as a whm main...using lillies to move just to get blood lilies to then...do dps.
Idk, idk why people are scared to talk about it like its bad, healthy conversation is good, people just like to either bitch, or say "well healers dont need to dps"
make healing harder by making new rules for exclusively savage raid content. raising the bar across the board is gonna create a healer shortage or a tank shortage for all other dawntrail content challenging end game healing already exists and its the roulette and specific queing for casual content
Stutter-step your slidecasts.
RP-walk bosses.
Do things that make other players impressed.
That's what healers should be doing- damage while looking awesome.
Healers are boring and need to be reworked. Add some fun dps procs, or just something so they don't make you fall asleep while playing them.
The problem is that the only dungeon/trail/alliance/normal raids players will focus on dps than on the healing part. There are some players that are very bad at healing.
Based
my issue with these types of vids is that it's always savage players and beyond talking about their jobs and asking for changes, but look, if you're a savage raider you're in the top 10% of players, if not less than that, and you're asking for changes that effect everyone. And many of those people who play more casually than they do, do not need these changes, and it's short sighted to consider they should.
but what about casual people that want the jobs to be more interesting again
Rin's point still stands no matter what kind of content they do be it dungeons, trials and any of the casual content, the fact that healers only get to have fun when the party is struggling. The moment you get into a group that can run things smoothly, the healers get to do less and less. Changes doesn't have to be complex, just make them interesting when they didn't have to do healing, casting Glare/Broil/Dosis/Malefic so much can be boring.
If you’re casual and you dont raid why does it matter?
Clear rates for savage are much, much higher than 10% of the entire playerbase. More than 10% of the active playerbase has cleared Ultimate. But that's neither here nor there.
I think it's short-sighted to write off what these players have to say. Consider that job design has a floor and a ceiling. Casual players are interacting with the floor, which would entail, anecdotally, spamming Cure II to keep a tank alive in packs. These players are considered casual because they are not interacting with the job's full kit. Which is totally fine because the content they engage with doesn't demand they do. These players don't know anything is wrong because Cure II functions as it always has.
The players who notice a decline in job interactivity are those who are and have been utilizing the job's full kit in content that demand they do. Or used to, at least.
The object of Rinon's video is to show that healers have gotten too powerful in the hands of those who know how to use their full kit and that power ceiling is too easily accessed. This wasn't always the case. In the case of Stormblood Scholar, Miasma II was a high-risk, high-reward tool that proficient players could use to optimize their gameplay, and casual players literally never needed to touch. It is possible to have disparity between the skill floor and the skill ceiling of a job such that the latter doesn't feel boring to good players. We know this because this paradigm existed in the game, and it was taken away from us.
Interesting job design need not impeed the gameplay of casuals. But boring job design necessarily impacts the enjoyment of people who want to improve but can't.
I felt weirder when the casuals complained about noxious gnash on viper makes the job too hard to play, then it's removed from the game, what so hard about it? It's just the same thing like shadow of death on reaper. Plus, if the job is hard or whatsoever, you don't have to play that job, there are 21 jobs in the game, even if you really like a job and you think it's hard, it's not, maybe it's hard to optimize but casuals don't care about optimizing, so it doesn't matter.
I really think that this issue isn't, in fact, solveable because the problem isn't so much the Tank mitigations or the Healer toolkit or the incoming damage, it's the extreme skill gap between the best and the worst players and there is nothing that can be done about that gap if they want newbie healers *at all* . Like, when I was a newbie healer, I was damn near shamed out of the game because I didn't know HOW to "ABC" in Snowcloak. I'd been playing for *less than two weeks* for crying out loud.
The issue is that players who have been playing Healers since, say, Heavensward, are going to be MUCH more "bored" with the role than the Conjuror who just started the game last week and might not have ever played an MMO before.
There *might* be a path forward in reclassifying "Healers" as "Magic DPS with Healing Tools". The ONLY Healers who are going to be using their ENTIRE Healing kits are going to be those going into Ultimates and MAYBE someone running the Nier Raids with a bunch of newbies and/or people who haven't seen them since Shadowbringers was current. I love Healing, but I'm NOT at that level and, hell, the Healing requirements just in Dawntrail have driven me OUT of Healing because I can't keep up. I ended up going Picto 'cause that way I don't even have to deal with being a Rez Mage (which is usually my preference).
So we might need fewer Healing tools and more DPS tools (like an insta DPS strike that uses a lily and charges the Blood Lily for White Mages) or we might just need to make ALL the Casters into "Magic DPS with Healing Tools" and give them ALL access to Rez, Esuna, and a few insta-cast heals, renaming the whole role into something like "Support Caster" or we might need to just rework the ENTIRE Holy Trinity away from Tank/DPS/Healer to something else entirely.
But even if we do all that, the gap between the highest skill and the lowest skill players will remain and MUST be navigated or the highest skilled players will be bored out of their minds and the lowest skilled players will just quit the game before they have the chance to become higher skilled players.
Wrong. All they would have to do is add in more consistent damage to be healed at all times, or make healers heal from the damage they do. It is 100% solvable, just think harder.
@@BjornStatenguard I don't think that would actually solve the issue of the extreme gap between the best and the worst, or rather, the most experienced and the least. Anything passive isn't going to make things more interesting for those for whom the cognitive load of healing isn't engaging anymore, but anything active is going to absolutely overwhelm those who haven't had enough experience yet to make the load easier to handle. And requiring MORE healing from neophyte healers for whom what we already have is too much is either going to make them quit the game entirely or simply move to DPS and only heal during MSQ, which is going to make the whole fundamental healer shortage even worse.
They need to rework the healers entirely. They should all function like wow's disc priests. Damage the enemy to heal the party. With each having unique flavor added to the core dpsing healer gameplay loop. In addition, make most bosses radiate dmg or dots on the players, most of the time, so healers actually need to heal.
It's wild too me seeing the casual healers being so against adding more engagement to healers when it doesn't affect them. I used to main AST in EW, absolutely adored the job, did savage and ultimate on it, but come DT I main PCT and altought I still play AST once in a blue moon I rarely do. AST in EW felt perfect to me, it requiere fast motor skills and fast tinking every 2 minute to give out 3 cards ASAP, it was different every time thanks to the RNG while redraw allowing you to have some control over it and not being a huge punishment if you got cucked.
AST was fast and high apm and requiered fast descicion making... only if you bothered. You could perfectly well not bother with the triple cards in the 2 minute. if you do your 2 minute on cd and kept your uptime it was more than enough to clear savage and most ultimates with. the game is set up in a way that you could clear most casual content never attacking and only using like a third of your kit, but now AST has been dummed down and I dont want to play it anymore, theres no more RNG to entretain me and most of your cards are useless now outside of MINE coils.
skill ceilings don't interact much with the skill floor, a job having complexities does not affect those that dont want to interact with it. just look at 7.0-7.04 BLM who had its skill ceiling chopped off while raising its skill floor. for all intents and purposes 7.0 AST has the exact same skill floor as 6.0 but it got its ceiling chopped off and its a trend the game has of taking away any complexity the game has, seeming to be that people dont understand that its a ceiling for a reason. you are not expected to play like that, the ceiling might be something to aspire to and work towards, a journey of self improvement for yourself. but instead of the game having a wide variety of jobs with wide amount of complexity... they are just taking all that complexity away.
WHM still progging M4S here (to give an idea of my perspective).
It's a good topic and people should have the conversation, but anyone who says healers aren't impactful enough immediately loses me. Sure, healers are only really needed for heal checks specifically for them... but in the same way tanks are only needed for tankbusters and DPS are only needed for DPS checks. I think for Rinon, the real problem is that they got better even as healing got easier.
For each point they bring up, it only really affects progression or recovery which are already doing fine. Go back through the list with the mindset of doing a fight you already know and no one is messing up. None of those points matter once you've already figured out what resources you want to spend on each mechanic.
However, I still understand the need to feel rewarded for being good at your job. To that end, I propose a shift in fight design to allow for more mechanics that can be resolved in alternate ways if certain players are good at their role.
For example, the boss drops two tethers defaulting to the healers ofc. The tethers give a spicy DoT in an AoE (think M2S stacks) when they go off. Intended resolution is obviously to do light party stacks, then lightly heal through the DoT. However, a tank can take that tether and solo the stack with some mitigation, then really have to use their kit to survive the 4-stack DoT while the rest of the party presumably resolves other mechanics a bit easier without damage eating away at them. Maybe a debuff that reduces healing from other sources which is negligible at 1 stack, but leaves the tank on their own if they solo it.
Another example, a ground flare that goes off repeatedly on the boss's location which encourages everyone to back away, but constant GCD and woven oGCD heals from both healers can mitigate the damage enough to keep the Melee DPS in the fight.
The idea behind both is to give players the potentially risky option to exhaust their resources.
Alternatively... just add randomness to the otherwise static dance of the harder content. Not just changing the order of mechanics, but also which ones are used. Maybe one run, you end up with 3 tankbusters in a row and you'll need to have spaced out the mitigation instead of kitchen sink'ing it every time. That's really what made WoW raiding different to me. Having to adapt keeps a bit of that progression vibe in every run. One run might be laughably easy while another might be a harrowing experience even without mistakes.
I find a lot of videos from older FFXIV creators reek of arrogance, particularly when it comes to generalised statements like "unless you are brand new, the job becomes boring quickly". This is flawed logic as it makes an assumption that the way that he interacts with the job is the default for everyone. If someone isn't new to the job, but doesn't find it boring, it automatically puts them in contention with the statement. They naturally push back as their experience is not being accurate represented, and the whole "The FFXIV community can't take criticism" thing goes on, when it just someone giving their opinion about an opinion (which is ironic as it's a person that couldn't take criticism about them talking about others not being able to take criticism).
That's all that this is, opinions. If healing is only fun when things are going wrong, by bringing that same level of challenge to baseline might make it unmanageable when mistakes are made. Adding more dots might be fun for some, but tedious for others. It's why I think that jobs in the same role should have dedicated "easy" and "hard" jobs. They might both achieve the same goal, but how they go about it can be different. One could be very linear, the other could be complicated. It's probably the best situation you could get. Furthermore, I don't think that comparing a level 60 kit to a full level 100 is a good comparison, current WHM doesn't have most of the things he listed at lvl 60.
Also, a lot of the complaints that he made are not as a result of making it more beginner friendly, but in response to creators talking about difficulties in maintaining damage uptime (or how they hated having the cast a GCD cure because that ate into their damage parse), or that Afflatus wasn't damage neutral, or that people kept standing too far away so they didn't get healed or buffed. Wording matters, what someone meant as a comment on other players may be seen as a comment on the game systems.
Also a small nitpick, when you say things like "smashing the ceiling AND the floor"....it puts an emphasis on the floor, when it's the ceiling that was in point.
"It's why I think that jobs in the same role should have dedicated "easy" and "hard" jobs."
Absolutely. Coming from a fighting game background, I've long championed this idea of each role in this game having jobs that vary wildly in game play, and cater to different skill sets. Tier lists be damned, as long as every job can clear content. Yet as time goes on, many jobs are only becoming more similar. Shame, really.
@@bPlusOne Except in that case i would come and ask you why should the Summoner be the easiest caster to play ? (or not ?) The issue with this kind of arbitrary decision is the fact you will infuriate many many players in the process.
@@Cyiel568 That's game design unfortunately - everyone can't and won't be happy at all times.
Admittedly, change would be a bigger problem now since the game's been out for over 10 years. Many players have settled into comfort zones and routine, so sweeping changes would indeed anger a lot of people.
Yet, there still exist players like Rinon, and thousands upon thousands of others who aren't getting what they need anymore from jobs as they are now.
Challenging and active game play has been taken away from them over the years, and that's a problem that should be addressed. But how does this happen without making some controversial changes?
@@bPlusOne Agreed with you.
Respect to RinBanana but i think he's take that healers are engaging only during BLIND cutting edge progression is too much to one spectrum. I think it is the MOST engaging yes, but progression, blind or with guides, still have a high level of engagement. Progress for a healer will always follow the same road as for any role as they slowly get used to the fight. At that point i think the engagement for all roles tend to die out as they follow the choreography, rotating through their skills, and using mits on schedule depending on the boss timeline.
But the thing is, Healers at any point of progress, from learning to clearing, will always be the main ones to resolve human error which can occur at any point of progress, from learning to clearing.
Especially when progress is in the consistent clearing point, as DPS optimize, taking more risks to tack on just one more GCD before an avoidable mechanic. The factor of human error will always be there.
I do agree there should be changes. For example, im a sch main. I think that there should not be a choice on whether to use an aetherflow stack on energy drain or a party beneficial. Most of the time, SCHs prioritize Energy drain in both learning phase and clear phase. Maybe have energy drain exclusively use flow and all the mits that used flow have its own gauge/stack.
Or maybe force healer mits by creating boss moves or raid wides that will wipe the party unless both healers pops a group mit, if only 1 healer uses a mit, the boss mechanic will still do wipe damage. Doesnt matter if addle is on, or tank mits. It would strictly need to be both healer mits.
hello all o/
Hi 👋 engagement!
I prog on Scholar in a group that I'd characterize as having midcore pretensions but only being able to sustain a casual schedule; we're currently taking a break from M3S prog to do EX3 clears. We're mostly made up of people who used to raid at some point in WoW and we've been largely consistent in our roster since Stormblood. Before that, I started XIV raiding for the last tier of Alexander. As a result I've played all sorts of different takes on Scholar - including the super wild time when they removed Energy Drain - but I'm not so good at it as to be divorced from how a typical raider might see healing. A stat I think is useful to know is that only 5% of players have cleared M4S, according to FFXIVCollect's data.
With that said, I think Scholar is in a relatively good place right now. It needs improvement - specifically, the fairy gauge can be completely useless at times and only half the healers have gap closers - but we're doing pretty well. It's more fluid and rewarding than it was in Endwalker or Shadowbringers. I can feel a real identity for it that's distinct from the other healers, and with cool buttons like Seraphism I finally have that big cooldown that'll let me save my group from a wipe. I like Scholar, warts and all, and I'm happy playing it.
Making raid mechanics more challenging is a far better solution than making the process of healing more challenging. Raising the skill requirements of the content rather than the skill requirements of the job is the right way, as we all improve and push our limits together.
I'm actually fine with only half the healers having gap closers. It's on brand with the healers they're on. WHM is the simpler pure healer, SGE is the simpler shield healer. Similar to how we have WAR and PLD as the "defensive" tanks and DRK and GNB as the "offensive" tanks. there's specific dichotomies within the holy trinity that I think should be maintained.
So, I've avoided this video itself, I only clicked because you're here for reactions, but I can't even get more than half way through it. I prog on Healer, I clear on healer. I DO NOT need more chaos in my life as a healer. Dungeons? Sure Healer is the slow mindless job at times. EX and Savage, I learn the fight, when I need to heal, when I need to focus my dps. Even with the 2 buttons, keeping dot up, I still have a ROTATION. It's just a healing rotation I am performing the entire fight. When things go wrong, it pisses me off more than makes it engaging. Because now I am having to adjust to issues, using resources I normally wouldn't at a given point, etc... The things he loves about it, I downright hate having to do. I ENJOY healing as it is.
Granted, I only have my personal experiences to go off of, but every time this 'healing sucks' thing comes up I am personally just confused. I like to role. I like the role being limited on the DPS end, if I wanted to be a hardcore dpser, I'd learn to play a DPS. I heal, and I tank. I enjoy doing both, I enjoy how they are set up.
P10S disagrees with Rinon
I am satisfied with the current state of healing.
You know you have a problem when you start your video (well, after the five minutes of padding) with "things are only engaging if you do the content that 99% of players don't do and don't want to do/can do" lmao.
Frankly I'm tired of people going "I don't like healing, so healing should be changed to be more like dps" like maybe go play dps then.
I *will* say I do get sad when fun healing opportunities in normal content get trivialised within like two weeks due to gear going up. But like. How about we make the fights more interesting to heal, instead of insisting every job has to have more complicated button pressing. I love focusing on complex healing situations while I can leave the dps up to muscle memory. I like overseeing the flow of the fight, not keeping my eyes on damage numbers. I like picking up a team of newbies and carry they through a piece of content they didn't think they could do. All that is more interesting than having to micromanage a rotation.
Also, picking which part of your kit you want to use when to be as efficient as possible is? Its own fun challenge that you can do while keeping the job accessible to newcomers.
The boilerplate comes down to this simple fact.
Do you the player want to spend more time doing something so the Trinary feels equal in contrubution.
or
Do you the player want to jump in and jump out so you can do other things.
That's the whole basis of the argument. Make the game harder so I have more things to do is not a good way of doing things. We had that before in ARR and HW, people chose to go with their friends over duty finder. There was a legitimate healer shortage and White Mage is that class if it was to get something would eclipse all other healers.
Square is in a no win situation but healers do not want to recognize that their wants will also piss other people off.
adding 1 more thing for healers to optimize won't kill all casual healers.
It's people are trying there best to not engage in the discussion by saying "square can't make everyone happy" that's the point of the discussion is to find a solution in which midcore players can to try optimize in a fight to stay engaged instead of 111111112 spamming the whole time.
They’re implementing an easy -> complex gameplay with the dps classes and they can absolutely do the same for the healers.
@@cutejustice Again your inconveniencing 3-6 other people so 1-2 people can feel special.
Just give healers a pumpkin filled with raw meat. You gotta give them engagement in the enclosure
They need to make one or two dedicated healer that is just insanely difficult to play but has an equally insanely high amount of use to the party. Like keep white mage as the "Noobie" healer and the other three as a slight step up in terms if difficulty, but make a brand new healer that is just over the top difficult that can appeal to these high end raiser types. That way, less skilled players can still have an easy time on the less skill reliant healers, and high skilled players can show off how good they are and can stop complaining about how easy healing is. Better yet, take it to the next level and do this for all future classes. So it for tank and dps too.
I dunno, I’m a White Mage healer main and have been since I started FF14 and I don’t really mind the current state of healers. I often find that the people who have the most complaints about the state of Healers are the top tier/hardcore crowd or DPS/Tank players in other roles who don’t like the healer roles but want to play them
I've been playing since end of shadowbringers and main all 4 healers. I just want one more thing to synargize in the kit to make more engaging. 111111112 needs not be my entire existence.
@@charizardgamez447 - I mean, totally fair! I wouldn’t hold anyone against wanting just one more fun thing.
Easy fix to the healer problem. Take away all healing abilities, just keep the spells. Done. Watch all of them despair and spend most of the fight actually healing instead of doing dmg.
As much as I do want DPS to remain a part of healing, I do agree that the devs have leaned way too hard on oGCDs. The fact that a vast majority of GCD heals are buttons that a skilled healer doesn't want to press is a failure of job design. Yes, I know that many people are more than happy to hit those buttons casually, but we can design healers where all players of all skills want to use all the buttons. We have the technology.
99.9% of these videos and opinions are those that can not be taken seriously cause as a literal top 1% of player base the game can not remotely be catered to your onion on balance/healing required cause it would mean about 75% of the player base would be set to a lvl of struggle they can not handle which leads to loss of players and even worse a massive loss of players in that role which means a even worse role balance than what we already have. Now I will put emphasis on this as someone who is a savage player aswell in the top 25% of tank and dps players and around a 50%healer which is vastly higher than the majority of players, I dont find healing overly hard but not to say I don't have a crazy amount to do when helping people clear content and prog. Now as a tank and dps I can say easily that savage is EASY stupidly so on the job role side especially but thats ok there is another lvl of content I could be doing that I know is EXTREMELY hard by comparison to savage but I choose to not do it because I enjoy other content more. The point I am trying to get at is just cause your role is easy doesn't mean you should expect the devs to put in higher difficulty to your role just for you to then take away from the vast majority of the player bases enjoyment of the game.
The games balance and job role balance have to be separate always with the jobs being more on the anyone can play it and the content being set to different levels of difficulty with some content to a point some content is designed despite it being NOT being even remotely smart to make from a developer point of view when less than 5% of the player base will experience but the developers still put effort into it that content that will not give much in the way to incentive to play for the majority of players.
Basically the point is job roles cant be designed around the highest end players playing with the highest end players it is a recipe for failure.
In Shadowbringers I knew two statics that fell apart and 6 healers that stopped raiding over the specific issue of E8S, one of the hardest fights available to people who could schedule the time to play it, being boring to heal. None of these were hardcore or top 1% players or even above average parsers. Just people going about their business and getting bored because the healing jobs were boring. Your 99.9% comment probably does not apply to this specific video. It is not difficult for the average player to get bored of healing difficult fights. The difficulty is specifically not on the healer role. There is just not much to do, and it would not make the game more difficult for most people to consolidate heals and give healers more buttons to do other things.
He's not asking for it to be harder, just a higher skill ceiling.
@@charizardgamez447 thus requiring the job to be harder from a mechanic standpoint.
@@grygaming5519 not necessarily true
Well your opinion cant be taken seriously either, because your a nobody, who only thinks about himself too. What's different? Make ot make sense.
We healers do not need to talk. There are a few dps who play healer and complain incessantly that they want a DPS rotation on healer.
Rinon is very tone deaf with the current state of healers in the game, he expects that every healer play at his level and their group which is never making any mistakes and min maxing healers damage and healing cooldowns, he basically wants to raise the bar of difficulty of an already hard role that has the job of healing others people mistakes, most of the times you are paired with your average joe that WILL make TONS of mistakes.
Healers were complex because the fights at the time were simple, now healers HAVE to be simple to the new complex fights, otherwise you are pushing new players out of the role which is notorious for being the least played already.
explain this complex healing that you speak of. i didnt realize hitting temperance required so much thought
it's actually okay to start leaving people behind if they can't learn how to play by the 5th expansion of a game
@@lev884 Except they're not saying healing is complex right now? They're saying healing is easy because the fights are complex. I don't agree with them but you're misreading their point.
People have this misconception that healing is hard just like the similar kinds of people that get tank anxiety for x reasons. Healing is very easy. People just have a huge mental block about what it takes to heal and/ or they have a fear of failure leading to be scared of letting the group down. Healing is keeping people alive, and keeping people alive is very easy. It's keeping people alive while doing the most damage, that's the hard and interesting part of healer as it currently is. Rinon just wants this part, where you have to juggle healing and damage, to be harder. That shouldn't affect the skill floor required of being a healer. That only affects the top end of healers.
@Jaxter0987 you know, when I wrote the comment, I realized someone was gonna ding me for the phrasing. I'm glad it was you lol, everything you've said pretty much spot on.
Bro did not watch the video
"I want something to be more engaging" doesn't mean make it harder
i miss cleric stance 8(
i don't miss it
god I rejoiced the day they finally killed cleric stance for good, same with having to change stats if you wanted to play sch or smn, it was just stuff that got in the way of enjoyment for me
@@Oppurtunafish i dont miss the stat swapping between SMN and SCH but I *do* miss the stance dancing.
WHY use instances? To fill your ego?
@@andreluizxd2873 im allowed to have an opinion?????????
I, personally, can't play astrologian and have fun doing it anymore. As someone who did enjoy the old card system, it was super engaging and always had me figuring out what to do with my next card, what combo I can do with it, how can I make the most of the situation. The job itself has become boring due to the cards/healing becoming stale, like the video suggests. Sure, I do agree there was low lows like spire royal roading into ewer and vice versa, but when I get the highs of extended arrowing my BLM to have 1.4s Fire IV's under leyline, it's just a rush. When I can make a combo of cards that make tank cool downs look like a joke (30% dmg redux for 55s, Enhanced Bole + time dilation + collective unconsciousness with a regen lasting just as long), those moments give me that adrenaline rush. Engagement. Instead of, look dps card, is it blue? melee. is it purple? ranged. Even now with the new set of cards, you just place the cards in a mostly monotonous way. If you don't use them or have a chance to use them, you end up just spamming them out because you have to get to your next set of cards or they drop to the floor. Each expansion, I give the new iterations a try but my jaded feelings about the job never fades.
Healing now, it's just an embarrassment of riches after making every button just do more healing but only necessary when you need to fix a problem or just using them because they have a dps component attached to them and not using them = dps loss. The engagement is only there when unexpected happens to break up the routine.
There was once a time of HW savage raiding. It almost killed raiding scene of the game.
Seems like someone like Rinon are those small camp of "survivors" that suffering from nostalgia about "good old days, when grass was greener and everything was a challenge".
Yes for ultimate healers - latest expansions are easy, but you check beyond 0.1% and you can literally die from heal check / healer mechanic.
Here’s the fix: give dps 1 to 2 simple interactions that feel good to press damage wise. 2) the fights need to be tuned where healers do NOT contribute most of their time to dps and make the unavoidable damage increase by 700%. Make them heal more in hard content and in easier content them finding the time to dps to make them feel a general sense of rewarding gameplay. That’s the fix
as Main Healer in Japanese Data Centre, I don't want rotation or more DPS button.
People too focus Healer is boring because they mastered the fight, what about the one that new also having new player to duty alsoDPS that keep eating mechanics
Mana is expensive on Healer and very punishing on Healer that just being raised
Healer can die because of other player too. Like me, I always die in dungeon.... because I doze off often especially in Snowcloak for some reason😂
WHM solo regen should be ogcd 😂
Healer also need to target more to solo heal,esuna, shield, buff, debuff and also dps. basically adding rotation could be a mess and make some player rather finish combo and do damage than healing
it doesn't need to be a whole rotation just something to optimize while playing healer because 111111112 for 85% of the time just feels bad
@ Maybe I preferred simple damage button since I also watch drama/series while playing and raiding. Its easier to type in chat when I watch streamer
@one909 and that's fine. All the healers don't need to change. Maybe just give astro and SCH more things to think about whale, keeping the others simple.
honestly get back Cleric stance, increrase mana costs, and maybe add second dot, and probably make healer feel more interesting, i would also probably decrease tanks survivabilty to increase healers needs, so many dungeons you can run and just not need one, evcen max level current dungeons. Healing just doens t have any engagement at the casual end, and running dungeons can be sleep inducing.
I been playing healer for a long time. I love to dps and sage is now one of my mains.... But god this guy just rubs me the wrong way. I don't agree with any of his "your a bad healer" redric. "Elite guy wants elite things for elite class get out of the way newbs"
Yeah, I like a fair bit of their content, but a lot of this video came off as them saying "I get bored outside of fresh Savage prog and Ultimates, so the healers should be made way harder for everyone, not just me." Like... nah, dude. At most I'd say it would be cool to have one particularly hard tank and healer, but the game clearly doesn't want that. Gunbreaker was made way easier and more homogenized and it's clear that was super deliberate. Healers I don't know as well, so it's hard for me to say whether AST, SCH, or SGE would be the best pick for a "hard" healer, but either way, if CBU3 wanted one of them to fit that niche then it already would after all these expansions.
Bro did not watch the video
"I want something more engaging" doesn't mean make it harder
@@FishSkeleton-he's just asking for the skill ceiling to be raised
He deliberately touchs the skill floor. Just give healers something they can optimize.
@@charizardgamez447 He also said that healers are only interesting to play during blind prog on hardcore content or when something is going seriously wrong and people are taking tons of damage. Meanwhile it seems like 50% or more of healers in random roulettes and such don't even know they can Sprint in a dungeon, or that Esuna exists.
@@FishSkeleton- so? adding more doesn't change anything for those players.
Look, the healer kit is fine. It's when and why we use it is the 'problem'.
If I just press one button over and over for roulette partly because some of my pt members with max ilvl for that patch (or me) it'll be a snoozefest.
Wanna make it interesting?
_let me heal_
Sincerely, a healer_main_that_got_burned_out_after_almost_a_decade
I disagree with the kits being fine. As a healer, my problem isn't that I'm healing less, it's that the healing I'm doing is lame as hell. I have no substantial resources to manage or core mechanics to consider. I just hit the heal buttons when they're needed. Having to do that 10 times instead of 5 doesn't improve anything. I feel like most of these complaints would evaporate if the healer kits were better designed.
to be clear btw. I don't want more complex DPS rotations or more buttons. I just want my buttons to be more involved and have more opportunity for optimization and decision making.
@Bistai949 Ergo the reason I'm saying the kit is fine because some would make the arguement the kit we have is simplified because the encounters are getting more complex.
Fundamentally I do agree with you. If this is the design language the dev intended therefore they should make our kits more involved and modular, especially when it is simplified. But what is happening right now is just a play script that is fixed and only can be optimized.
It's like playing a lame version of a rhythm game.
The main problem XIV raiders have is their inability of understanding everything below them. They want the game catered to their needs and, while understandable, it's quite egoistic and I'll be honest it's badly concealed because "if you don't play as them you are bad" is quite the dumb argument when you try to get water to your windmill.
Bro did not watch video
"I want something more engaging" doesn't mean make the job harder
@@charizardgamez447 doesnt' changes what else I said in fact it makes stronger
And you dont want the game catererd to your needs then right? Or are you just a little jealous nitch
@@neobahumuth6 it really doesn't
@@charizardgamez447 you might've some problem of comprehension then. which I mean what do I expect I said that was the main problem lel
This guy takes forever to get to the point.
He has to even in this comment section a lot of the people missed the points he was talking about
i've been a healer since 2.0 but have stopped playing it when the nier raid came out
i agree that rinon is out of touch with the average player's experience, but this is because the average player isn't engaging with encounters that are meant to require coordination or thought at all. the bar for performance is in hell and there are still players that manage to limbo under it. healing cannot be engaging only when your group is bad or you are bad, it needs to be engaging at all levels of play and that's what the argument is about. if making healing engaging is pushing people away from the role, then those people shouldn't heal and when we're 5 expansions in, that has to be accepted for the health of the game. otherwise, the playerbase becomes the little cousin with the unplugged controller pretending to interact with the screen.
every tank and dps has way too many support tools. every healer has way too many healing tools and WAY too many opportunities to use them. even in the latest patch, they changed holy to a 1.5s cast time which just opens even more chances for weaving - weaving that isn't needed whatsoever. most players already use way more gcd heals than they actually need, and gcd healing is something that should be required at all levels. right now, it's barely needed at the highest level. in reality, changing the experience so that healers actually need to heal just means that more casuals become less bad without even changing their playstyle.
Agreed, and to add on to this point, I find it really annoying when people act like these changes would necessarily make the casual player's experience worse. These jobs can be designed in a way that makes them enjoyable in casual and difficult content. This isn't some dichotomy where either the ultimate raiders are happy or the casuals are happy.
It also increases the time you the better player have to waste in a roulette just so Jonny Two thumbs can get better.
The reality was in 2.0 and 3.0 there was no real healer shortage. The thing was majority of the better healers refused to que up for Expert because of bad players. This is in 2.0-3.55, people would rather party up with people who could do their classes vs gambling on players in DF.
All you'll be doing is making sure people go back to what they were doing in ARR&HW. I wouldnt run expert in DF if we went back that way, i'd grab 3 friends I know can play their classes and run expert. Even when it comes to leveling, I'd make sure I wouldn't have to deal with randos at all because as noted I do not trust a Jonny two Thumbs to tank, dps or heal competently if the difficulty in the dungeons start to scale upwards.
@@grygaming5519 i think it would be good if people were forced to find groups of friends to run dungeons with
Rinon is so out of touch with current healers.
That's crazy I think your out of touch
Thats just you being a jealous little nitch
I personally both agree and disagree with you.
I disagree, because this person has been playing for a long time, and they would be a person who would a better 'feel' of the game, versus many others, and they have an internal check of how it felt then vs now.
However, I also agree, because I do not think WHM having Cleric Stance sounds like a fun player mechanic. Going into or out of a specific stance being the only factor in if a person dies or not would feel bad, and I do not believe that should be something a WHM needs to deal with, unless it was slightly changed to make it not *as* punishing, like lowering the CD with it, or something.
But, in general I do agree with the video's ideas.