I explain the inconsistent use of IO and Asgorath like this. Gods have aspects that are specific to certain realms. This could be when they assume another god's portfolio or their worshipers change and that aspect has to change to match the worshipers expectation. Asgorath would be an aspect of IO in the realms. So it would be slightly different from the original. Now if IO is an overgod, and the realms have AO as their overgod, then IO would have either created an avatar or another aspect to battle Erik Hous. So if it was an aspect that was killed, that would prevent IO from entering the realms with a new aspect. But Asgorath was already there so it could. As for the he/she aspect. Gods are non-corporial beings. Gender is either a state the worshipers assume for them or a decision the god makes for how they want to appear. I like the Primordials from 4e. Astral gods are formed from the quintessence of souls. Primordials are elemental gods formed from the raw elemental forces. Now for the rabbit hole. Abier was separated from realmspace for the Primordials to rule. So it is sphere without access to the gods. That sounds like Dark Sun. Could Athas be Abier's dark future? Hummmmm.
To my understanding, an “Overgod” in DnD isn’t really an “omnipotent creator deity”, so much as just being the god granted Admin rights over a Crystal Sphere by the Luminous Being. As such, while it “involves” power, it’s less a “power level”, so much as a job. With the Overgod acting as boss/landlord/DM towards all other gods that would act within that Crystal Sphere. While outside of their own Sphere, lacking said Admin rights, they’d in effect basically just be another greater power(though I’d presume probably still lacking the need for worshipers to avoid starving to death). Within such a context, there’s nothing really stopping Io from simply being the Overgod of some other Sphere then Realm Space. One that just occasionally pops into Realm Space to visit their kids at their work, and mess with Ao.😂 It is kinda funny to think though, that for all power and hype around “Overgods”, a single Crystal Sphere… is actually a really tiny part of the DnD multiverse. Not even including most of the planes(I’m a little unclear if the Feywild and Shadowfell count as part of Realm Space or not) Many an adventuring party would be popping in and out of Ao’s jurisdiction quite frequently while plane hopping. Though, that fact in and of itself would likely play a large role in the spread of myths about foreign Overgods like Io. … Honestly, DnD’s kinda top heavy cosmology started to make a LOT more sense to me upon conceptualizing that the reason that all these gods who live inside infinite planes of existence even “care” about single planets inside of the tiny cosmic marbles that are the Crystal Spheres, is that they’re basically just where they work. Since as the gods need believers to go on living, they’ve got to get them somewhere. And while they “technically” can go to other Crystal Spheres, completely uprooting to start a new job(or as a few of the gods do, just working two or or more of them) is both high risk, and often easier said then done.
If I may compare to other mythos outside of dnd it’s not impossible for a primordial to defeat a god. I see this more as the god “dying” to the primordial which actually turns the god into two new gods from the husk left behind, and it manifests into a new primordial being.
"Asgorath, your avatars and those whom taken your name have spun such a tale... Sadly, many reinterpretations alter such wonderful story." A deep breathe of the young noble spew some icy fog among the frozen wastland. "Indeed. I have missed my chance." "Don't you dare, Set!" The youth cry out in laughter.
I appreciate that someone does Io justice. At my table in every universe in the multiverse an aspect of Io exists and is handled as an intermediate God for any canonical need but true Io lives as the border between existence and non existence as their true form cannot be in any single universe.
Dude, you're doing just fine in tossing aside any unwanted or conflicting lore from 4e. There is enough lore through the other editions and enough conflict therein, that ignoring 4e conflicts is just fine. You're doing an excellent job. There is no need to be apologetic for not following some of the 4e garbage. Keep up the good work.
How about this: he “died” as a ruse. Him manifesting in his true form inherently shifts the balance between good and evil wherever he is. So he died as a way of leaving this physical realm where he will not be such a direct influence, but left pieces of his power behind to bind with the physical realm. They dilutes his influence such that the “game” is interesting to watch. Evil flows from Tiamat and good flows from the other…but there were nine folds to the dragon. The last one represents the unity of the two fundamental forces which equals the nine folds. The union that would never happen again is immortalized by that neutral ninth fold…true neutrality….which was the disposition of the original dragon spirit.
Thanks for the vid. Awesome to have a resource like this. Ideas. Taking the death of the first dragon God. Instead of putting him against simply a primordial. Have the fight be against the cheif ansestor of giants and titans. Annem the all father be a part of this battle. The wounds in the aftermath keeping him from active creation on torill for many years. ( I have heard it stated that his first dalliance was off of torill) A more detailed look at how this fight could have come about. As Anmam was said to be born from the primordial sources of law and chaos. He might have had affinity with the primordials still. But he was still a god and so did not actively detract from a dawn war senario. However even so it's possible that Ammen was able to befriend some of the primordials. Then as he grew to know the dragon god. He knew they could never be at peace post war. As only ao kept the peace between them. While he was powerful it was not to the point of being a god of original creation. In the dying days if the conflict he let slip to some of the finnal strike teams of the primordals where the dragon god could be found after he had exhausted himself in battle. The primordials attacked the supposedly weakened dragon god.... It did not go well for them as io was always on gaurd and kept his full strength hidden. News of the raging battle got out and Annom lead a coalition to hit the primordials in the rear. They suicided to split the dragon god in twain. But many felt that the gods could have gotten their faster. Nothing could ever be proven. And as the giant god himself was wounded in the battle. No charges were ever pressed. But Tiamat hated the giants and their kin after it was discovered that Io's resting place was leaked through the father of giants. bahamut ever the lawful good. Instead judged the case on its merits and through his eyes no guilt could be found. Forming part of the basis for the advisarial relationship between the 2 dragon dieties. This could make for a much more satisfying start to the conflict between giants and dragons. In my opinion. The idea of a 3rd dragon god is also quite helpful. Allowing the crystal dragons psychic powers an origin that makes more sense. Indeed their fight against the far realms denizens and their lack of a unified directing make more sense. As with a nutral god overseeing them that is absent. They would simply go their own way and form their own relationship structures and hierarchies.
I view IO as a force of creation, above the need for worship. And Asgorath as an aspect of that creation. Most gods are created either as aspects of greater beings or thru the worship mortals that came into being from the power of souls. Primordials are beings that developed from the power of creation. They are essentially the same but differ from the source of their power. So Asgorath would make sense as a primordial power.
I really like & appreciate your retcon/homebrew having Asgorath be the primordial reborn form of IO. I'm definitely a fan of trying to bring it all together.
From what I understand, 4E was one of those things that would have had a lot less complaints if it was it's own thing, and not the successor to the first three editions.
I agree with that statement. I think 4e could have been the default system for Dark Sun and it would have worked well. Also, I have a conspiracy theory: every time the Dark Sun campaign is released, that version dies.
Asgorath was the first Dragon God. The frist "Red" dragons were the percersers of the gem dragons. The rebellious one was IO and the only one created from 6 blood of Asgorath. He pierced his own flesh to produce two drops of blood, creating Bahamat and Tiamet. They joined forces to destroy the first gem dragons for the first Dragon Wars. But before they had destroyed all of the Gem dragons, some of them had paired and produced clutches of eggs, creating what we now know as gem dragons. Bahamat and Tiamet paired and produced the first of the Chromatic and Matalic dragons. Once the first Gem dragons were finally killed off, they ended the first Dragon war. Shortly after that, Bahamat and Tiamet started the second Dragon war as both wished to be the one true Dragon God. The dragons ended up dividing into Matalic following Bahamat while the Chromatic dragons ended up following Tiamet. AN extremely simplified version of what Dragon lore I used when I still played D&D.
Well, from what I heard, I'd Say Asgaroth is kind of an neutral-aligned avatar of Io just like Bahamut being the lawful good aligned and Tiamat the evil aligned avatar of Io, all being differents aspects of The Ninefold Dragon.
This helped me understand who and what Asgorath is ever since I discovered a mod for Baldur's Gate 3 called Asgorath Chaos Sorcerer - Subclass mod. as a D&D Player of 5e I been curious what Asgorath is and how the chaos magic of creation is like :O even in previous editions.
I’m running tyranny of dragons currently and while Severin is considered the bbeg I have him answering to a Mad Scientist named Imfred who was a variant of Sardior, but was punished by Bahamut for his crimes against Dragon and Mankind (he’s a sociopath) Imfred was stripped of his dragon form & magic, but was given long life in the body of a human man whose appearance was a reflection of his inner being a bitter old man. Imfred would go on to subtly steer the reigns of the cult of dragon with their experimentation of dracoliches, and when that proved to be only so useful he began the process of flesh grafting. Cut to ToD, and Imfred has mastered his craft and re-established his connection to the weave and while the party was successful in defeating the cult in the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Imfred has a grand scheme to unfold in the Rise of Tiamat
Null is said tobe the brother to both Bahamut and Tiamat. That Bahamut was the first, Null the second, and Tiamat the third. Thiugh that was a very obscure piece of lore from a 2e site. As for Sardior it is said he is the son of Tiamat and Bahamut, but through creation or more natural means is unknown.
Hey, I just wanted to start off by saying "I love seeing all the lore compiled like this." I also love the art that went along with it. I feel the explanation is fairly simple to explain. Much like any of the greater gods, and by proxy any Over God, they can have multiple aspects active at any given time. "Killing one off" has a negative impact, but in the big picture, it has little long-term lasting consequences. At least for the God. In other cases amongst the gods they have the ability to do things like swarms of spiders or other creatures. Why would a Dragon God turn itself into anything other than two lesser versions of itself to divide the power and remain alive. I belive IO is playing the long game for the return of a new dragon age. Which is why his two children have stayed separate in very protected and very powerful locations.
Thanks so much for the video! I started my campaign before these came out and they have really been helping me flesh out the details of my epic level 20+ story plot. In my world, Shar and Selune are the two most powerful dieties under Aeo as they represent dark and light or positive energy and negative energy. I have that they created Azgorath as a true neutral diety to preside over the mortal realms and judge their souls. After Selune betrayed Shar by making her own creations without Shar’s involvement, Shar became enraged and tore Azgorath in half thus creating Bahamut and Tiamat. When she did so, fragments or shards of Azgorath’s essence fell to Tauril and now lay buried and forgotten or claimed by powerful creatures. Now, every 5,000 years, dragons awake and the two sides battle for supremacy as the two gods wage war in the heavens which causes catastrophic damage. Once the players reach high enough level, the hordes of dragons will be unleashed and in order to stop the ongoing bloodshed, they must locate the Dragon Shards and fuze Bahamut and Tiamat back together. I think after this video I am going to have a third entity, a primordial that was created representing the body of Azgorath that the two halves of his spirit fight over. If one can gain enough power and take over the body again, they will gain all their former power but without their neutrality. This is what they fight over every 5,000 years. I’m looking forward to the upcoming videos!
In my world Ao is not the main God, but the God created to oversee the Gods. The first Gods created by the creator were Palor, Selune, Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, and Akadi. Shar was created from the lack of the element of darkness. In anger she spun the primordial energy into the first demons. The creator, Emanù, created Asgorath, to help him defeat the demons. Afterwards Asgorath was Emanù's companion until his death at Zehir's hand. Vorquan was born from his corpse. After Vorquan was slain Bahamut and Tiamat came from him. Before he died, Asgorath created a planet that follows the main planet in its rotation around the sun and whenever a great evil that's on a scale greater than a party of lvl 20 toons can handle threatens the world that planet looks closer until their atmospheres merge and the dragons enter the planet created by Emanù from the planet created by Asgorath. The dragons used to go to the first planet, deal with the threat, and return home. But due to Tiamat's bs the chromatic dragons leave but don't help with the threat. Therefore heading original Asgorath's call is a one way trip and dragons exist on both planets.
So what about Tiamat's sister who had three heads, one yellow, one orange, and one purple, who according to some may be the mother of hydras, and was supposedly killed by the dragon goddess and whose name and soul was sealed within a mirror within Tiamat's lair inside the nine hells? Where does she factor into things?
That is a very interesting facet of world building that is unfortunately almost never used and even more rarely cared about. But to us that know, we love it
It would make more sense for Tiamat and Bahamut to come from Earth, like all the other Earthly gods who travelled from the Earthsphere to the Realmsphere
4E was weird. I played a 2 year campaign and found myself yearning for the roleplay factors that 3.5 allowed for in character building. I spent hours upon hours using the character builder trying to make something interesting enough to want to commit to and just couldnt seem to find anything that felt good to play. Now, its worth noting that I try to make some weird interactions of feats and rules happen to allow my characters to do things I think are interesting to roleplay or mechanically fun. Below is just me reminiscing on some morally dubious things I tried so this was a fair warning. I really tried to convince a pick up GM to allow me to run a paladin who took mounted combat feats and considered a wheel-chair to be his mount, the argument being that I would be able to summon my wheelchair everywhere I went and in dungeons etc. so I would still be able to travel with the party easily while using charge attacks and a jousting lance with 2 handed feats to wreck-ass. Then there was the torture wizard where I would argue that a character's closed mouth cavity should count as a container and that I should be allowed to magically waterboard my enemies by creating water in their mouths. After typing this now I remember why I dont subject PUGs to my presence anymore lol. A lot of spells are actually really fk-ed up when you think about them, and no matter what awful things I think of I still think heat-metal is the most awful and horrifying spells in the game. What would be stopping a wizard from creating so much water in people that they pop like water balloons, or using a teleport spell specifically on the internal organs of someone they dont like? I feel like my goal in D&D was always to find out the GM's personal morality and then specifically do something to trigger a WTF response and im not sure what that says about me. I will now go and reflect on this revelation. RIP to GMs who ended up as therapists, seriously a lot of lost wages from GMs doing that for free by allowing certain characters into the game. EDIT: sorry to anyone who actually read this, I really went off on a tangent
There could be multiple interpretations on why Asgorath tried to break the world in the Tearfall. 1. Asgorath is a many-aspected being, so he might have had a female Primordial avatar that was locked away as a result of the Dawn War, and when that aspect got free, representing a petty, spiteful elemental aspect of the greater Asgorath, chucked the Ice Moon at the planet. 2. Alternatively, the myth is Abeiran in origin, so they got the name wrong and no gods were around to correct them, and the dragons overthrew the primordials, meaning most of the people who would have been around at the time are either dead or sealed away. 3. Asgorath the Primordial was a pretender who took the name. "During the tumult, a primordial calling herself Asgoroth the World Shaper even hurled an ice moon at Toril" FRCS Alternatively, she took the name in mockery. "Who are you?" "Call me Asgorath the World Shaper, 'cause I'm about to reshape your planet!"
In the beginning, there was the Hermaphrodragon that separated from all of it's junk. For what is a shovel without the digger, and what is the well without the bucket? lol.
I love being able to see all this information in one place! Do you think you can talk about the domains of dread. I read somewhere that there within the shadowfell and looked over by the raven queen
I reckon this is muchly confusarium to linear Lawful types. Some of us build worlds by throwing all this in a blender and pouring it over a kitty litter box and seeing how that sorts itself out when left in the yard a spell. A Bravo for this masters level practicum! I'm enjoying your productions greatly!
I have an even easier way of explaining all the inconsistencies in the story. So you already said he is and overdeity. That means exists outside of time, space, or any of the realms. This alone makes all the stories possible. Each of these instances would be times that he has donned an avatar and use the most miniscule fraction of his power to enter reality. Each of these stories he seems to even act different ways as if it is a certain aspect of his personality taking the Avatar at that point in time. This would explain how he can fight as a primordial, god or whatever he chooses as his form. This will also explain how he can be defeated even though he's supposed to be the creator of everything. It also explains how he can be killed multiple times with various results. Because in all of these stories it is not his true form or a fraction of his power. His true form would be beyond the power or even comprehension of anything that calls itself a God or could even have stats in the game. So there that's how it works with even less Homebrewing than you're using.
Alternate explanation: Asgorath wasn't just carved up into two physical halves, but three pieces, two physical and one spiritual. The two physical pieces heeded the natural impulse of all physical life forms - the urge to live - by taking on new corporeal forms and striking back against their Primordial foe in retaliation for Asgorath's corporeal death. Respectively, they embodied Asgorath's Good and Evil aspects as Bahamut and Tiamat. Asgorath's spiritual piece, in contrast, embodied the Neutral side of the draconic Creator, and was more dispassionate about the whole mess. Judging that the planet over which the battle raged was doomed to be annihilated in the crossfire no matter who won, and that this renewal of the Dawn War could only end in mutual extinction of both gods and primordials, she chose to destroy Abeir-Toril outright and thereby end the batrachi summoning-magic, keeping any late-to-the-party primordials from joining the battle and allowing the gods to fall back and regroup, rather than fight to the end for an undefendable world. Lacking a physical body, she used a crystalline celestial object as her doomsday weapon, expending much of her divine power to chuck it smack dab on top of the batrachi Summoning's focal point. The collision ended the Summoning, created the Sea of Fallen Stars, forced Ao (who still felt the planet was salvageable) to sunder Abeir from Toril, and scattered fragments of crystal across the Realms. Some of these fragments, saturated by spirit-Asgorath's divine energies, became the first gem dragon eggs. Once hatched, their occupants would prove to be gifted psionically more than physically, a legacy of their creation from Asgaroth's spiritual piece rather than his/her bodily ones. They would maintain their maker's Neutrality (with variations) and stand-offish tendencies throughout the generations to follow. As for the bodiless progenitor-spirit herself, she eventually found a new home in Sardior, the Ruby Dragon, when he came into the picture, melding with him and entrusting him with what remained of her power.
If you really wanted to make them work together, you could have it that the IO in the Dawn War was a small part of him that wanted to explore his creation, and thus he broke it off to do so as the vast majority lurked in the shadows, now devoid of almost all will to act overtly/directly. As for the Bahamet/Tiamat spawning from him, maybe that they weren't as divergent before taking his then polarized essence into themselves, but I don't know.
Sounds like what the Dragons call Io and Asgorath, Vecna calls The Serpent. My theory is that The Serpent is a Pre-D&D deity-like being from the Jack Vance's Dying Earth series of books, mentioned at the end of the Rhialto book and present in the Lyonesse series. It seems like Gygax not only took the Ioun Stones and made Vecna from those books but also determined that The Serpent consumed Vance's universe (the 1st void) and was later consumed by D&D's Old Ones (the authors) to create D&Ds multiverse (the shadow void).
I presumed the sealed Asgorath was an aspect of Io, specifically one that had suffered from betrayal that led to her defeat against Erek-Hus. Perhaps that Ice Moon was a fusion of Zotha’s Crystal Sun and a shed scale of Io’s reforged into a moon, but the specifics of that moonfall… I don’t actually interpret it as an “attack” so much as the icemoon itself was sealed alongside Io, and unsealing Asgorath released a falling moon without the inertial force to keep it in orbit, sheerly incidental destruction. I also assume that gender consistency is irrelevant to gods as a default
What if Io, Ao, Asgorath and Dendar are all the same god just different aspects of them? An overgod would be the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. An overgod could and would change names, appearances, and even complete aspects of themselves to suit each races view of them.
@@RichesandLicheswhile leaving it in would have made me happy, as someone who owned that campaign setting way back when, I understand the need for time cuts. But your content is great as usual. Keep up the wonderful work.
While there are more than a few D&D lore channels out there (and some are really great) R&L is approaching things from an angle in a way where I'm getting new 'nuggets' every video. [The Baldur's Gate Pub Crawl video was all new nooks and crannys too.] 🍺
The Pub Crawl is one of my favorites and in the top 5 of the "longest it took to make"... really wish it would have done better. I had already researched Waterdeep and wanted to do "The Pubs Across the Sword Coast". Thank you for watching and commenting.
Fuck man! I am so happy to wake up to another upload. Grabbed my early morning coffee, and sandwich and buckled up and strapped in, because I know its about to be something special, another banger. Its my day off today so I might even binge a few videos.
With DnD’s lore, and history that can seem very ‘conflicted’, can’t it be said that our ‘legends/ myths/ history’ be so as well??? The ‘creation conflicts’ I just explain as differing cultures create differing variations of one truth… the world is here, and so are we😊😊😊
It absolutely can be... that was the message I was trying to balance with the retcon discussion. My apologies if that did not come through for you more clearly.
In my own games, IO and AO are one in the same. But that is because the first time I ever heard of IO was in the Council of Wyrms box set. And in that, IO was thee over god. The Blood Isles were, as the name implies, the blood of IO. In 2nd edition, and I'll be damned if I can remember from where I heard it, there was only one over god. A god that created all the different worlds and realms. A god that was to the other deities as they were to mortals. IO was that god in CoW, which was its own game world, like Dark Sun or Dragonlance. And even in Dragonlance, it's told that there is an unnamed god above Paladine and Takhisis. I like to think that since they both are dragons that the unnamed god is, in fact, IO. But that's just my own speculation.
I agree with your speculation about Io and Dragonlance's High God, it's why I consider putting Blood of Io isles on Krynn as a place where Io rests with his dragons, while his children rule the world. I also consider making Io and Ao brothers.
I kinda of like the idea of IO and AO being brothers, but it negates the concept of an over god. But IO in Dragonlance would make sense since canocally, Takhisis and Tiamat, and Bahamut and Paladine are the same. My biggest problem would be, where to put the Blood Isles? And how would it been affected when the gods destroyed Istar and created the Blood Sea? That's actually the biggest problem with adding anything to Dragonlance. Wies and Hickmandive deep into making the history of Dragonlance.
Hey man! I just subbed and I love your content. If you don’t mind, I’d like to request a vid on the world tree cosmology. I love the idea of the world tree and nobody has made a video on it somehow? Thanks for teaching me so much lore lol!
Awesome video! Love D&D lore! Also, can you please tell me where you got the dragon pic in the intro? I'd love that as a wallpaper. Keep up the good work! Definitely subscribing.
Asgorath n'est peut être apparu lui même que lors de la création du multivers. Après ça ne serait peut être qu'un ou des avatars de lui qui ont fait les actes des autres légendes ? Peut être qu'il a accomplis cela sous cette forme et s'est laisser vaincre sous forme d'avatar dans des buts bien précis puisqu'il voit la destiné ?
I am a fan of 4E lore though it is thin on Io's account. However, I do think you might be missing an opportunity to reconcile the lore. In the first half you describe a wide variance of perspectives on Io and give some credence to the notion that they are all correct. An overgod could have aspects that are both primordial and deific bolstering both sides in the Dawn War depending on the perspective of the participants. My homebrew assumption is that the domains shape the gods that inhabit them and these changes reverberate through time. As a multiversal power, perhaps Io was truly solidified as a deity in death, even retroactively...
Completely agree with you. My take on the lore... as the narrator/presenter of it... is that depending upon what eyes you are viewing through they can all be true and untrue... its the Schrodinger's Cat of lore. :)
I would imagine that even the gods can never be fully known unless they die because they are living a story without end until that story is over. Latin as a language can be seen as a fully contained group of data because it is no longer evolving with its speakers/writers/thinkers. A god, once dead, is no longer changeable by its interactions, not touched by the idiosyncrasies of its domains and worshipers. That's the Schrodinger effect, not known until its potential is determined.
I offer two possible explanations for the confusion over whether Asgorath/Io is male or female. The first is that, as either deity or primordial this entity contains aspects of both sexes and is thus truly both and neither. The other, recalling how Gary Gygax and the other original creators of D&D were forced out of the company and TAR became WoTC by a woman it’s possible that fourth edition saw the beginning of “wokeness” in the lore. It’s seen is almost all media today that what was male is now exalted in the female. Personally, I prefer the former as I see little point in bringing modern day political ideology into what is supposed to be a game intended for fun and escape from the banalities of the real world.
Io/Asgaroth could very well be both god and primordial and be the over god of all things considering that by 15dr Io is alive and well and retains his dominion as the god of gods. my hypothisis is that Io was both god and primordial
maybe he planned for the split , and to ascend to a higher form to watch over all if you add in the fact that maybe it wasnt io but the aspect of himself, which cannot be killed he he he
So I think the reason you're getting stuck here is because you're trying to make sense and logic of nonlinear divine understanding of beings that ultimately are true because people believe in them not because they happened. Logic is for wizards, gods operate on myth faith and wisdom held by cultures. If all worship of Astotath was left from all worlds he wouldn't exist and would have never existed, but this wouldn't make then the world's not exist. Linerally in history events happened, but why they happened is true only by faith and understanding. Ie, if enough people understand and know and believe tiamat and bahamut to be born of asgotath it is true to the history and knowledge of all including the deities themselves. If a name of a god changes and is forgotten the god may even forget the name of it is never in the future rediscovered. A god would remember it's history only if at some point in the present or future it would be known. So if there's a ton of understandings from separate times in the world the most current and known is true. If multiple faiths have different understandings they hold true a god may even fragment and splinter. This is further confused by the nonlinear activity of gods through time that could be done; Asgorath may be born in the present and create the world in the past. So as far as truth you can only look at events in the material plane, ie, the world serpent as a living primordial serpent did exist, did become fragmented into many beings as the culture of the sarrukh, dragons didn't exist at this time so they couldn't have a god. Asgorath rose from a fragment of a primordial serpent to a god, and thus created the world which makes sense in theming to the oroboros theming of all fragments of the world serpent. At some point either an avatar or aspect of Astorath was killed by a powerful Primordial, and at some point bahamut came forth alongside tiamat. If they existed beforehand or not matters not, because the common now held truth of faith is now the truth. If the dragonborn and dragons and even kobolds hold different the god communicated with by them would agree with the faith held. Whether or not the primordial being of asgorath was asgorath or not matters little, it's the cultural perception that matters. You're looking at "retcons" but they're actually just a series of changing understandings over time.
This is a great take... but now I need to ask if my script design intent flopped. Because I talked about the "dizzying retcons" in chapter 1 and then in chapter 2 tried to do EXACTLY as your post indicates but rationalizing the retcons as an evolving understanding as seen through the lens of various authors and their own bias and dogma, something I said first in volume 2 of the Forgotten Realms History video which talked about the world serpent. I was trying to "purposely" play devils advocate. But now I am just wondering if that message, which I thought was pretty clear, was in fact, muddy. :) Thanks for the comments and insight, great post!
@@RichesandLiches I don't think the script intent fully flopped, you just showed the history gaps as being author mistakes and bias but I think I'm a world where a god can be retconned in universe and lore you have to come to the understanding that the editions of the past and the rules of the past are glimpses of the truth of the past and the lore say in 5th edition is the current understanding compiled by historians and religious groups. In a world where enough people believe an elf to be a god can result in the raven queen I don't think it's a bridge too far to intuit that if enough scholars teach the world to be on the back of a turtle it might become true. The time gaps and changes between editions are more likely and easily seen as shifts in religion and history in the world, as if all cannon was to be seen as immutable the beginning of the world would be 20 or so beings all simultaneously fighting and killing giants and manta rays and their fathers and chaos spawning and such at the same time inside they eye of a sleeping cat. All these things are as true as is believed. The authors are writing as historians and religions and that common understanding shapes the world, a type of oroboros of unreliable narrator and a literally evolving history. This also explains why creatures and gods from say 2e aren't present in 5e. It's not that they didn't exist, it's that they don't now and history itself has written them out of reality as they are forgotten. Prime example; yellow and purple and orange dragons simply don't exist anymore but were referenced in the past.
Yep and that is a separate mythology that I left out on purpose for the Tiamat and Bahamut video. I thought I referenced in this video, I will have to check. Great feedback and sharp eye my fellow lore scholar! :) Thanks for the watch and comment!
"A mere primordial power" [Looks at Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Ubtao, and the Elder Evils] 28:38 Also, if you're reading the 4E Draconomicon, then I feel like there's your problem. I'm pretty sure that is detailing the Nentir Vale setting, not Forgotten Realms. That's like asking "In Baldur's Gate 3, why didn't Mordenkainen or Bigby do something about the Absolute?", unless I'm missing something (I know the Sword Coast Adventures Guide mentions Io's death at the hands of Erek-Hus, but is he mentioned as such in any other explicitly Forgotten Realms work?). In my lore, I do a mishmash of Fizban's Treasury of Dragons First World concept where all worlds are made of pieces of the First World, creating a sympathetic link between them, so memories of events that happened in other worlds bleed into the Forgotten Realms and vice versa, especially with multiversal deities who may have memories overlap between what happened in one world and what happened in another. Furthermore, there might have been deific refugees from the Nentir Vale who set up on Toril (though not necessarily in Faerun, maybe Maztica, Anchorome, Katashaka, Osse, and/or Kara-Tur), and they brought with them tales of how things went down in their world (or if the tale of Io getting killed and being turned into Bahamut and Tiamat is purely a dragonborn myth, then it was brought with them by Primordial refugees who settled on Abeir). That said, where's his "World Serpent Aspect" origin story?
Man im so Glad im not GM anymore.. Trying to Make this work with this Bunch of Retcons will be a Pain.. Much better to Scrap evrything and create your Own stuff from Zero..haha xD
If I were a character I would likely not care what happened 7,000 years ago. I would want to eat, find a good tavern, some companions and look for treasure while doing some serious exploring. Then if I lived to tell of my adventures....I would start designing my home, my clothes, my weapons and magic for the next trip. Egos play a huge part in story telling. Who's on first? What's on second? Depends on the narrator.... Have fun is the point. Captivate the attention of the prettiest tavern wench and treat her to a night out. She's a doppelganger anyway.
If you are a dragon making up a religion, your not gonna say your entire species comes from a defeated primordial. No your gonna say your species comes from the most all powerful all created god in the whole universe because you are perfect and your god is perfect, except those dbag metal dragons they came from a "Renegade" a traitor. Its nothing but chromatic dragon religous propaganda to please their own extreme racist views that they are greater then all other beings. My headcannon is Asgoroth was a primordial, and they were defeated by another primordial, primordials fought its well documented in other stories. Their blood probably created the dragons and would be a logical link as to why dragons have elemental connections, fire, ice, lightning ect. Its not impossible for a primordial to later become a god either, Asgorath could still live and now be a god. but if Asgoarth is going to start a religion they wont claim to just be the creator of dragons but to try and claim to be the mightest greatest creator of the universe cause thats what dragons do, they see themselves and the best and greatest, the masters of delusion. Asgoarth is certainly a god, they have a ton of worshippers to not be, but most likely not as strong as their religion claims to be. You can never trust a dragon to give you an accurate measure of their power, they will always grandstand and exagerate their power, wealth and status its just in their blood. Blood they got from Asgorath.
really cool and complete video but, lizardmen and troglodytes aren't dragonkind, they descend from the Sarrukh for me I have always assumed Asgorath was a primordial an then he/she/it created the dragons who then started venerating him/her/it then making he/she/it a god but I like you theorie, basically the reverse of the mine
You are correct, I did a whole video on the Sarrukh - th-cam.com/video/TkBpapZKjTo/w-d-xo.html They are not dragonkind... but the lore says that dragonkind AND some lizardmen and troglodytes DO worship Asgorath, as the World Serpent.
Not totally correct story, but pretty close to actual events >:) Speaking of genders, he was a male originally, but became a transgender(not a female). And no, dragon was never defeated and was never split into bahamut/tiamat, so he's still all right.
I explain the inconsistent use of IO and Asgorath like this. Gods have aspects that are specific to certain realms. This could be when they assume another god's portfolio or their worshipers change and that aspect has to change to match the worshipers expectation. Asgorath would be an aspect of IO in the realms. So it would be slightly different from the original. Now if IO is an overgod, and the realms have AO as their overgod, then IO would have either created an avatar or another aspect to battle Erik Hous. So if it was an aspect that was killed, that would prevent IO from entering the realms with a new aspect. But Asgorath was already there so it could. As for the he/she aspect. Gods are non-corporial beings. Gender is either a state the worshipers assume for them or a decision the god makes for how they want to appear. I like the Primordials from 4e. Astral gods are formed from the quintessence of souls. Primordials are elemental gods formed from the raw elemental forces. Now for the rabbit hole. Abier was separated from realmspace for the Primordials to rule. So it is sphere without access to the gods. That sounds like Dark Sun. Could Athas be Abier's dark future? Hummmmm.
use to love playing the prestige class Singer of Corresent
To my understanding, an “Overgod” in DnD isn’t really an “omnipotent creator deity”, so much as just being the god granted Admin rights over a Crystal Sphere by the Luminous Being. As such, while it “involves” power, it’s less a “power level”, so much as a job. With the Overgod acting as boss/landlord/DM towards all other gods that would act within that Crystal Sphere. While outside of their own Sphere, lacking said Admin rights, they’d in effect basically just be another greater power(though I’d presume probably still lacking the need for worshipers to avoid starving to death).
Within such a context, there’s nothing really stopping Io from simply being the Overgod of some other Sphere then Realm Space. One that just occasionally pops into Realm Space to visit their kids at their work, and mess with Ao.😂
It is kinda funny to think though, that for all power and hype around “Overgods”, a single Crystal Sphere… is actually a really tiny part of the DnD multiverse. Not even including most of the planes(I’m a little unclear if the Feywild and Shadowfell count as part of Realm Space or not) Many an adventuring party would be popping in and out of Ao’s jurisdiction quite frequently while plane hopping. Though, that fact in and of itself would likely play a large role in the spread of myths about foreign Overgods like Io.
… Honestly, DnD’s kinda top heavy cosmology started to make a LOT more sense to me upon conceptualizing that the reason that all these gods who live inside infinite planes of existence even “care” about single planets inside of the tiny cosmic marbles that are the Crystal Spheres, is that they’re basically just where they work. Since as the gods need believers to go on living, they’ve got to get them somewhere. And while they “technically” can go to other Crystal Spheres, completely uprooting to start a new job(or as a few of the gods do, just working two or or more of them) is both high risk, and often easier said then done.
If I may compare to other mythos outside of dnd it’s not impossible for a primordial to defeat a god. I see this more as the god “dying” to the primordial which actually turns the god into two new gods from the husk left behind, and it manifests into a new primordial being.
"Asgorath, your avatars and those whom taken your name have spun such a tale...
Sadly, many reinterpretations alter such wonderful story." A deep breathe of the young noble spew some icy fog among the frozen wastland. "Indeed. I have missed my chance."
"Don't you dare, Set!"
The youth cry out in laughter.
I appreciate that someone does Io justice. At my table in every universe in the multiverse an aspect of Io exists and is handled as an intermediate God for any canonical need but true Io lives as the border between existence and non existence as their true form cannot be in any single universe.
Dude, you're doing just fine in tossing aside any unwanted or conflicting lore from 4e. There is enough lore through the other editions and enough conflict therein, that ignoring 4e conflicts is just fine. You're doing an excellent job. There is no need to be apologetic for not following some of the 4e garbage. Keep up the good work.
I've been trying to look into Io/Asgorath's lore for a while now. Seeing all the theories compiled into a video makes it easier and fun watch.
How about this: he “died” as a ruse. Him manifesting in his true form inherently shifts the balance between good and evil wherever he is. So he died as a way of leaving this physical realm where he will not be such a direct influence, but left pieces of his power behind to bind with the physical realm. They dilutes his influence such that the “game” is interesting to watch. Evil flows from Tiamat and good flows from the other…but there were nine folds to the dragon. The last one represents the unity of the two fundamental forces which equals the nine folds. The union that would never happen again is immortalized by that neutral ninth fold…true neutrality….which was the disposition of the original dragon spirit.
Thanks for the vid.
Awesome to have a resource like this.
Ideas.
Taking the death of the first dragon God.
Instead of putting him against simply a primordial.
Have the fight be against the cheif ansestor of giants and titans.
Annem the all father be a part of this battle.
The wounds in the aftermath keeping him from active creation on torill for many years.
( I have heard it stated that his first dalliance was off of torill)
A more detailed look at how this fight could have come about.
As Anmam was said to be born from the primordial sources of law and chaos. He might have had affinity with the primordials still.
But he was still a god and so did not actively detract from a dawn war senario.
However even so it's possible that Ammen was able to befriend some of the primordials.
Then as he grew to know the dragon god. He knew they could never be at peace post war.
As only ao kept the peace between them.
While he was powerful it was not to the point of being a god of original creation.
In the dying days if the conflict he let slip to some of the finnal strike teams of the primordals where the dragon god could be found after he had exhausted himself in battle.
The primordials attacked the supposedly weakened dragon god....
It did not go well for them as io was always on gaurd and kept his full strength hidden.
News of the raging battle got out and Annom lead a coalition to hit the primordials in the rear.
They suicided to split the dragon god in twain.
But many felt that the gods could have gotten their faster.
Nothing could ever be proven.
And as the giant god himself was wounded in the battle.
No charges were ever pressed.
But Tiamat hated the giants and their kin after it was discovered that Io's resting place was leaked through the father of giants.
bahamut ever the lawful good.
Instead judged the case on its merits and through his eyes no guilt could be found.
Forming part of the basis for the advisarial relationship between the 2 dragon dieties.
This could make for a much more satisfying start to the conflict between giants and dragons.
In my opinion.
The idea of a 3rd dragon god is also quite helpful.
Allowing the crystal dragons psychic powers an origin that makes more sense.
Indeed their fight against the far realms denizens and their lack of a unified directing make more sense.
As with a nutral god overseeing them that is absent.
They would simply go their own way and form their own relationship structures and hierarchies.
I view IO as a force of creation, above the need for worship. And Asgorath as an aspect of that creation. Most gods are created either as aspects of greater beings or thru the worship mortals that came into being from the power of souls. Primordials are beings that developed from the power of creation. They are essentially the same but differ from the source of their power. So Asgorath would make sense as a primordial power.
I really like & appreciate your retcon/homebrew having Asgorath be the primordial reborn form of IO. I'm definitely a fan of trying to bring it all together.
From what I understand, 4E was one of those things that would have had a lot less complaints if it was it's own thing, and not the successor to the first three editions.
I have actually said those exact words on one of my videos... could not agree more. Well said.
@@RichesandLichesThanks.
Also, new to the channel (first video I've seen), but definitely watching more going forward.
I agree with that statement. I think 4e could have been the default system for Dark Sun and it would have worked well.
Also, I have a conspiracy theory: every time the Dark Sun campaign is released, that version dies.
Asgorath was the first Dragon God. The frist "Red" dragons were the percersers of the gem dragons. The rebellious one was IO and the only one created from 6 blood of Asgorath. He pierced his own flesh to produce two drops of blood, creating Bahamat and Tiamet. They joined forces to destroy the first gem dragons for the first Dragon Wars. But before they had destroyed all of the Gem dragons, some of them had paired and produced clutches of eggs, creating what we now know as gem dragons. Bahamat and Tiamet paired and produced the first of the Chromatic and Matalic dragons. Once the first Gem dragons were finally killed off, they ended the first Dragon war. Shortly after that, Bahamat and Tiamet started the second Dragon war as both wished to be the one true Dragon God. The dragons ended up dividing into Matalic following Bahamat while the Chromatic dragons ended up following Tiamet.
AN extremely simplified version of what Dragon lore I used when I still played D&D.
The flesh of AO became the twins, the blood became the dragon born and the skeleton became a primordial
Draco-Arch Lich.
Well, from what I heard, I'd Say Asgaroth is kind of an neutral-aligned avatar of Io just like Bahamut being the lawful good aligned and Tiamat the evil aligned avatar of Io, all being differents aspects of The Ninefold Dragon.
This helped me understand who and what Asgorath is ever since I discovered a mod for Baldur's Gate 3 called Asgorath Chaos Sorcerer - Subclass mod.
as a D&D Player of 5e I been curious what Asgorath is and how the chaos magic of creation is like :O even in previous editions.
I’m running tyranny of dragons currently and while Severin is considered the bbeg I have him answering to a Mad Scientist named Imfred who was a variant of Sardior, but was punished by Bahamut for his crimes against Dragon and Mankind (he’s a sociopath)
Imfred was stripped of his dragon form & magic, but was given long life in the body of a human man whose appearance was a reflection of his inner being a bitter old man.
Imfred would go on to subtly steer the reigns of the cult of dragon with their experimentation of dracoliches, and when that proved to be only so useful he began the process of flesh grafting.
Cut to ToD, and Imfred has mastered his craft and re-established his connection to the weave and while the party was successful in defeating the cult in the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Imfred has a grand scheme to unfold in the Rise of Tiamat
I'm curious about Null and Sardior, though I'm sure there is less about them.
Null is said tobe the brother to both Bahamut and Tiamat. That Bahamut was the first, Null the second, and Tiamat the third. Thiugh that was a very obscure piece of lore from a 2e site. As for Sardior it is said he is the son of Tiamat and Bahamut, but through creation or more natural means is unknown.
Hey, I just wanted to start off by saying "I love seeing all the lore compiled like this." I also love the art that went along with it. I feel the explanation is fairly simple to explain. Much like any of the greater gods, and by proxy any Over God, they can have multiple aspects active at any given time. "Killing one off" has a negative impact, but in the big picture, it has little long-term lasting consequences. At least for the God. In other cases amongst the gods they have the ability to do things like swarms of spiders or other creatures. Why would a Dragon God turn itself into anything other than two lesser versions of itself to divide the power and remain alive. I belive IO is playing the long game for the return of a new dragon age. Which is why his two children have stayed separate in very protected and very powerful locations.
Thanks so much for the video! I started my campaign before these came out and they have really been helping me flesh out the details of my epic level 20+ story plot. In my world, Shar and Selune are the two most powerful dieties under Aeo as they represent dark and light or positive energy and negative energy. I have that they created Azgorath as a true neutral diety to preside over the mortal realms and judge their souls. After Selune betrayed Shar by making her own creations without Shar’s involvement, Shar became enraged and tore Azgorath in half thus creating Bahamut and Tiamat. When she did so, fragments or shards of Azgorath’s essence fell to Tauril and now lay buried and forgotten or claimed by powerful creatures. Now, every 5,000 years, dragons awake and the two sides battle for supremacy as the two gods wage war in the heavens which causes catastrophic damage. Once the players reach high enough level, the hordes of dragons will be unleashed and in order to stop the ongoing bloodshed, they must locate the Dragon Shards and fuze Bahamut and Tiamat back together. I think after this video I am going to have a third entity, a primordial that was created representing the body of Azgorath that the two halves of his spirit fight over. If one can gain enough power and take over the body again, they will gain all their former power but without their neutrality. This is what they fight over every 5,000 years. I’m looking forward to the upcoming videos!
That is awesome! Thanks for sharing!!
In my world Ao is not the main God, but the God created to oversee the Gods. The first Gods created by the creator were Palor, Selune, Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, and Akadi. Shar was created from the lack of the element of darkness. In anger she spun the primordial energy into the first demons. The creator, Emanù, created Asgorath, to help him defeat the demons.
Afterwards Asgorath was Emanù's companion until his death at Zehir's hand. Vorquan was born from his corpse. After Vorquan was slain Bahamut and Tiamat came from him.
Before he died, Asgorath created a planet that follows the main planet in its rotation around the sun and whenever a great evil that's on a scale greater than a party of lvl 20 toons can handle threatens the world that planet looks closer until their atmospheres merge and the dragons enter the planet created by Emanù from the planet created by Asgorath. The dragons used to go to the first planet, deal with the threat, and return home.
But due to Tiamat's bs the chromatic dragons leave but don't help with the threat. Therefore heading original Asgorath's call is a one way trip and dragons exist on both planets.
So what about Tiamat's sister who had three heads, one yellow, one orange, and one purple, who according to some may be the mother of hydras, and was supposedly killed by the dragon goddess and whose name and soul was sealed within a mirror within Tiamat's lair inside the nine hells? Where does she factor into things?
I've always wanted to know more about this god and it hit the mark.
My brother uses that "first void" lore as his canon. He loves dragons lol. I'll have to ask him his take on Bahamut and Tiamat origin
This was great!
That is a very interesting facet of world building that is unfortunately almost never used and even more rarely cared about. But to us that know, we love it
@@SSTyrious World building is exactly what it is! He has built on his own canon for nearly 20 years😊
Loved dragons? My kind of guy :>
It would make more sense for Tiamat and Bahamut to come from Earth, like all the other Earthly gods who travelled from the Earthsphere to the Realmsphere
4E was weird. I played a 2 year campaign and found myself yearning for the roleplay factors that 3.5 allowed for in character building. I spent hours upon hours using the character builder trying to make something interesting enough to want to commit to and just couldnt seem to find anything that felt good to play.
Now, its worth noting that I try to make some weird interactions of feats and rules happen to allow my characters to do things I think are interesting to roleplay or mechanically fun. Below is just me reminiscing on some morally dubious things I tried so this was a fair warning.
I really tried to convince a pick up GM to allow me to run a paladin who took mounted combat feats and considered a wheel-chair to be his mount, the argument being that I would be able to summon my wheelchair everywhere I went and in dungeons etc. so I would still be able to travel with the party easily while using charge attacks and a jousting lance with 2 handed feats to wreck-ass.
Then there was the torture wizard where I would argue that a character's closed mouth cavity should count as a container and that I should be allowed to magically waterboard my enemies by creating water in their mouths. After typing this now I remember why I dont subject PUGs to my presence anymore lol. A lot of spells are actually really fk-ed up when you think about them, and no matter what awful things I think of I still think heat-metal is the most awful and horrifying spells in the game. What would be stopping a wizard from creating so much water in people that they pop like water balloons, or using a teleport spell specifically on the internal organs of someone they dont like?
I feel like my goal in D&D was always to find out the GM's personal morality and then specifically do something to trigger a WTF response and im not sure what that says about me. I will now go and reflect on this revelation. RIP to GMs who ended up as therapists, seriously a lot of lost wages from GMs doing that for free by allowing certain characters into the game.
EDIT: sorry to anyone who actually read this, I really went off on a tangent
There could be multiple interpretations on why Asgorath tried to break the world in the Tearfall.
1. Asgorath is a many-aspected being, so he might have had a female Primordial avatar that was locked away as a result of the Dawn War, and when that aspect got free, representing a petty, spiteful elemental aspect of the greater Asgorath, chucked the Ice Moon at the planet.
2. Alternatively, the myth is Abeiran in origin, so they got the name wrong and no gods were around to correct them, and the dragons overthrew the primordials, meaning most of the people who would have been around at the time are either dead or sealed away.
3. Asgorath the Primordial was a pretender who took the name. "During the tumult, a primordial calling herself Asgoroth the World Shaper even hurled an ice moon at Toril" FRCS
Alternatively, she took the name in mockery.
"Who are you?"
"Call me Asgorath the World Shaper, 'cause I'm about to reshape your planet!"
In the beginning, there was the Hermaphrodragon that separated from all of it's junk. For what is a shovel without the digger, and what is the well without the bucket? lol.
I first heard about IO in the Draconomicon back in my 3rd edition days. This is my first time hearing the name Asgorath.
That's probably my *favorite* 3.5e book! I spent so many hours reading that thing 😅
@@jaredblatterman6877 Same here lol
I love being able to see all this information in one place! Do you think you can talk about the domains of dread. I read somewhere that there within the shadowfell and looked over by the raven queen
I reckon this is muchly confusarium to linear Lawful types. Some of us build worlds by throwing all this in a blender and pouring it over a kitty litter box and seeing how that sorts itself out when left in the yard a spell.
A Bravo for this masters level practicum! I'm enjoying your productions greatly!
Thanks!
Super humbling, thank you very much! /bow
I have an even easier way of explaining all the inconsistencies in the story. So you already said he is and overdeity. That means exists outside of time, space, or any of the realms. This alone makes all the stories possible. Each of these instances would be times that he has donned an avatar and use the most miniscule fraction of his power to enter reality. Each of these stories he seems to even act different ways as if it is a certain aspect of his personality taking the Avatar at that point in time. This would explain how he can fight as a primordial, god or whatever he chooses as his form. This will also explain how he can be defeated even though he's supposed to be the creator of everything. It also explains how he can be killed multiple times with various results. Because in all of these stories it is not his true form or a fraction of his power. His true form would be beyond the power or even comprehension of anything that calls itself a God or could even have stats in the game. So there that's how it works with even less Homebrewing than you're using.
bart always said that when dragons die there is no afterlife just void
Are you going to include Sardior or any of the gem dragon lore in a future video? 🤞🏻love the channel. Can’t wait to keep watching!
Yes, I have a volume in progress dedicated to the origins of Tiamat/Bahamut that will cover the Ruby Dragon and some other interesting stories.
Woot woot!
In my head canon, Asgorath/Io created the Epic Dragons directly (Solar, Lunar, Prismatic, Force, and Time) before Bahamut and Tiamat were made.
Alternate explanation: Asgorath wasn't just carved up into two physical halves, but three pieces, two physical and one spiritual. The two physical pieces heeded the natural impulse of all physical life forms - the urge to live - by taking on new corporeal forms and striking back against their Primordial foe in retaliation for Asgorath's corporeal death. Respectively, they embodied Asgorath's Good and Evil aspects as Bahamut and Tiamat.
Asgorath's spiritual piece, in contrast, embodied the Neutral side of the draconic Creator, and was more dispassionate about the whole mess. Judging that the planet over which the battle raged was doomed to be annihilated in the crossfire no matter who won, and that this renewal of the Dawn War could only end in mutual extinction of both gods and primordials, she chose to destroy Abeir-Toril outright and thereby end the batrachi summoning-magic, keeping any late-to-the-party primordials from joining the battle and allowing the gods to fall back and regroup, rather than fight to the end for an undefendable world.
Lacking a physical body, she used a crystalline celestial object as her doomsday weapon, expending much of her divine power to chuck it smack dab on top of the batrachi Summoning's focal point. The collision ended the Summoning, created the Sea of Fallen Stars, forced Ao (who still felt the planet was salvageable) to sunder Abeir from Toril, and scattered fragments of crystal across the Realms.
Some of these fragments, saturated by spirit-Asgorath's divine energies, became the first gem dragon eggs. Once hatched, their occupants would prove to be gifted psionically more than physically, a legacy of their creation from Asgaroth's spiritual piece rather than his/her bodily ones. They would maintain their maker's Neutrality (with variations) and stand-offish tendencies throughout the generations to follow. As for the bodiless progenitor-spirit herself, she eventually found a new home in Sardior, the Ruby Dragon, when he came into the picture, melding with him and entrusting him with what remained of her power.
Note to self: Development of creation must be solidified for my worlds. Fun!
I believe!
I read Azeroth and clicked. Not disappointed.
Disappointed that you misspelt the name.
HAHA... 10 years ago I could have definitely done a WoW lore channel!
@@nekomochi486Disappointed that you misspelled the word misspelled.
If you really wanted to make them work together, you could have it that the IO in the Dawn War was a small part of him that wanted to explore his creation, and thus he broke it off to do so as the vast majority lurked in the shadows, now devoid of almost all will to act overtly/directly.
As for the Bahamet/Tiamat spawning from him, maybe that they weren't as divergent before taking his then polarized essence into themselves, but I don't know.
Sounds like what the Dragons call Io and Asgorath, Vecna calls The Serpent. My theory is that The Serpent is a Pre-D&D deity-like being from the Jack Vance's Dying Earth series of books, mentioned at the end of the Rhialto book and present in the Lyonesse series. It seems like Gygax not only took the Ioun Stones and made Vecna from those books but also determined that The Serpent consumed Vance's universe (the 1st void) and was later consumed by D&D's Old Ones (the authors) to create D&Ds multiverse (the shadow void).
Great stuff!!
My first ever own dnd game as a DM the team had to stop a priest of Asgorath that tried to replace asgorath as the new priest that was 8 years ago
I presumed the sealed Asgorath was an aspect of Io, specifically one that had suffered from betrayal that led to her defeat against Erek-Hus. Perhaps that Ice Moon was a fusion of Zotha’s Crystal Sun and a shed scale of Io’s reforged into a moon, but the specifics of that moonfall… I don’t actually interpret it as an “attack” so much as the icemoon itself was sealed alongside Io, and unsealing Asgorath released a falling moon without the inertial force to keep it in orbit, sheerly incidental destruction.
I also assume that gender consistency is irrelevant to gods as a default
What if Io, Ao, Asgorath and Dendar are all the same god just different aspects of them? An overgod would be the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. An overgod could and would change names, appearances, and even complete aspects of themselves to suit each races view of them.
I'm surprised you didn't reference the 2e campaign setting Council of Wyrms, but of course this series is still ongoing.
I had a whole chapter on the Isle of Blood actually... :(
I was over 40 minutes and needed to make a cut, maybe should have left it in.
@@RichesandLicheswhile leaving it in would have made me happy, as someone who owned that campaign setting way back when, I understand the need for time cuts. But your content is great as usual. Keep up the wonderful work.
While there are more than a few D&D lore channels out there (and some are really great) R&L is approaching things from an angle in a way where I'm getting new 'nuggets' every video. [The Baldur's Gate Pub Crawl video was all new nooks and crannys too.] 🍺
The Pub Crawl is one of my favorites and in the top 5 of the "longest it took to make"... really wish it would have done better. I had already researched Waterdeep and wanted to do "The Pubs Across the Sword Coast".
Thank you for watching and commenting.
@@RichesandLichesIt might still you never know when things blow up in popularity.
Fuck man! I am so happy to wake up to another upload. Grabbed my early morning coffee, and sandwich and buckled up and strapped in, because I know its about to be something special, another banger. Its my day off today so I might even binge a few videos.
Give them the deep dive lore on Hobgoblins
I love the music in this video! What is it?
With DnD’s lore, and history that can seem very ‘conflicted’, can’t it be said that our ‘legends/ myths/ history’ be so as well???
The ‘creation conflicts’ I just explain as differing cultures create differing variations of one truth… the world is here, and so are we😊😊😊
It absolutely can be... that was the message I was trying to balance with the retcon discussion. My apologies if that did not come through for you more clearly.
In my own games, IO and AO are one in the same. But that is because the first time I ever heard of IO was in the Council of Wyrms box set. And in that, IO was thee over god. The Blood Isles were, as the name implies, the blood of IO. In 2nd edition, and I'll be damned if I can remember from where I heard it, there was only one over god. A god that created all the different worlds and realms. A god that was to the other deities as they were to mortals. IO was that god in CoW, which was its own game world, like Dark Sun or Dragonlance. And even in Dragonlance, it's told that there is an unnamed god above Paladine and Takhisis. I like to think that since they both are dragons that the unnamed god is, in fact, IO. But that's just my own speculation.
I agree with your speculation about Io and Dragonlance's High God, it's why I consider putting Blood of Io isles on Krynn as a place where Io rests with his dragons, while his children rule the world. I also consider making Io and Ao brothers.
I kinda of like the idea of IO and AO being brothers, but it negates the concept of an over god. But IO in Dragonlance would make sense since canocally, Takhisis and Tiamat, and Bahamut and Paladine are the same. My biggest problem would be, where to put the Blood Isles? And how would it been affected when the gods destroyed Istar and created the Blood Sea? That's actually the biggest problem with adding anything to Dragonlance. Wies and Hickmandive deep into making the history of Dragonlance.
thank you for your effort, I enjoyed this video you made.
Hey man! I just subbed and I love your content. If you don’t mind, I’d like to request a vid on the world tree cosmology. I love the idea of the world tree and nobody has made a video on it somehow? Thanks for teaching me so much lore lol!
I would love to see a video of the comparisons between dragonlance gods and forgotten realms gods especially chaos/ao the god of gods
Awesome video! Love D&D lore! Also, can you please tell me where you got the dragon pic in the intro? I'd love that as a wallpaper. Keep up the good work! Definitely subscribing.
Email me richesandliches@gmail.com and I will send you the HD file. You cannot find it elsewhere, I have a commerical license to create my own art.
Asgorath n'est peut être apparu lui même que lors de la création du multivers. Après ça ne serait peut être qu'un ou des avatars de lui qui ont fait les actes des autres légendes ? Peut être qu'il a accomplis cela sous cette forme et s'est laisser vaincre sous forme d'avatar dans des buts bien précis puisqu'il voit la destiné ?
Wasn't there something more about this in the 5e book about dragons?
I am a fan of 4E lore though it is thin on Io's account. However, I do think you might be missing an opportunity to reconcile the lore. In the first half you describe a wide variance of perspectives on Io and give some credence to the notion that they are all correct.
An overgod could have aspects that are both primordial and deific bolstering both sides in the Dawn War depending on the perspective of the participants.
My homebrew assumption is that the domains shape the gods that inhabit them and these changes reverberate through time. As a multiversal power, perhaps Io was truly solidified as a deity in death, even retroactively...
Completely agree with you. My take on the lore... as the narrator/presenter of it... is that depending upon what eyes you are viewing through they can all be true and untrue... its the Schrodinger's Cat of lore. :)
I would imagine that even the gods can never be fully known unless they die because they are living a story without end until that story is over. Latin as a language can be seen as a fully contained group of data because it is no longer evolving with its speakers/writers/thinkers.
A god, once dead, is no longer changeable by its interactions, not touched by the idiosyncrasies of its domains and worshipers. That's the Schrodinger effect, not known until its potential is determined.
I offer two possible explanations for the confusion over whether Asgorath/Io is male or female. The first is that, as either deity or primordial this entity contains aspects of both sexes and is thus truly both and neither. The other, recalling how Gary Gygax and the other original creators of D&D were forced out of the company and TAR became WoTC by a woman it’s possible that fourth edition saw the beginning of “wokeness” in the lore. It’s seen is almost all media today that what was male is now exalted in the female.
Personally, I prefer the former as I see little point in bringing modern day political ideology into what is supposed to be a game intended for fun and escape from the banalities of the real world.
Io/Asgaroth could very well be both god and primordial and be the over god of all things considering that by 15dr Io is alive and well and retains his dominion as the god of gods. my hypothisis is that Io was both god and primordial
Amazing! Please make the Bahamut-Tiamat video.
I always liked the Dragonborn of Bahamut's version from 3.5e Races of the dragon.
you missed the mythology that stated that Io/Asgorath had 3 children.... the twins Bahamut and Tiamat, and their elder brother, Vorel.
No i held... I am very aware of the story, just wanted to save it for the next video on Bahamut and Tiamat. What Tiamat did to Vorel... was savage :)
Chronepsis, bahumat,tiamat, and zorquan. Are all the dead remains og asgorath
Nice!
maybe he planned for the split , and to ascend to a higher form to watch over all if you add in the fact that maybe it wasnt io but the aspect of himself, which cannot be killed he he he
ill just watch lol seems u keep covering things before i get there hahaha wp sir wp!
I do not mind when you comment multiple times... helps the old algorithm :)
So I think the reason you're getting stuck here is because you're trying to make sense and logic of nonlinear divine understanding of beings that ultimately are true because people believe in them not because they happened. Logic is for wizards, gods operate on myth faith and wisdom held by cultures. If all worship of Astotath was left from all worlds he wouldn't exist and would have never existed, but this wouldn't make then the world's not exist. Linerally in history events happened, but why they happened is true only by faith and understanding. Ie, if enough people understand and know and believe tiamat and bahamut to be born of asgotath it is true to the history and knowledge of all including the deities themselves. If a name of a god changes and is forgotten the god may even forget the name of it is never in the future rediscovered. A god would remember it's history only if at some point in the present or future it would be known. So if there's a ton of understandings from separate times in the world the most current and known is true. If multiple faiths have different understandings they hold true a god may even fragment and splinter. This is further confused by the nonlinear activity of gods through time that could be done; Asgorath may be born in the present and create the world in the past.
So as far as truth you can only look at events in the material plane, ie, the world serpent as a living primordial serpent did exist, did become fragmented into many beings as the culture of the sarrukh, dragons didn't exist at this time so they couldn't have a god. Asgorath rose from a fragment of a primordial serpent to a god, and thus created the world which makes sense in theming to the oroboros theming of all fragments of the world serpent. At some point either an avatar or aspect of Astorath was killed by a powerful Primordial, and at some point bahamut came forth alongside tiamat. If they existed beforehand or not matters not, because the common now held truth of faith is now the truth. If the dragonborn and dragons and even kobolds hold different the god communicated with by them would agree with the faith held. Whether or not the primordial being of asgorath was asgorath or not matters little, it's the cultural perception that matters. You're looking at "retcons" but they're actually just a series of changing understandings over time.
This is a great take... but now I need to ask if my script design intent flopped. Because I talked about the "dizzying retcons" in chapter 1 and then in chapter 2 tried to do EXACTLY as your post indicates but rationalizing the retcons as an evolving understanding as seen through the lens of various authors and their own bias and dogma, something I said first in volume 2 of the Forgotten Realms History video which talked about the world serpent.
I was trying to "purposely" play devils advocate. But now I am just wondering if that message, which I thought was pretty clear, was in fact, muddy. :)
Thanks for the comments and insight, great post!
@@RichesandLiches I don't think the script intent fully flopped, you just showed the history gaps as being author mistakes and bias but I think I'm a world where a god can be retconned in universe and lore you have to come to the understanding that the editions of the past and the rules of the past are glimpses of the truth of the past and the lore say in 5th edition is the current understanding compiled by historians and religious groups. In a world where enough people believe an elf to be a god can result in the raven queen I don't think it's a bridge too far to intuit that if enough scholars teach the world to be on the back of a turtle it might become true. The time gaps and changes between editions are more likely and easily seen as shifts in religion and history in the world, as if all cannon was to be seen as immutable the beginning of the world would be 20 or so beings all simultaneously fighting and killing giants and manta rays and their fathers and chaos spawning and such at the same time inside they eye of a sleeping cat. All these things are as true as is believed. The authors are writing as historians and religions and that common understanding shapes the world, a type of oroboros of unreliable narrator and a literally evolving history. This also explains why creatures and gods from say 2e aren't present in 5e. It's not that they didn't exist, it's that they don't now and history itself has written them out of reality as they are forgotten. Prime example; yellow and purple and orange dragons simply don't exist anymore but were referenced in the past.
My level 5 paladin is ready to smite this false God.
Go get em tiger!
I thought IO was the father of Tiamat & Bahamut? Same God?
Yep and that is a separate mythology that I left out on purpose for the Tiamat and Bahamut video. I thought I referenced in this video, I will have to check.
Great feedback and sharp eye my fellow lore scholar! :)
Thanks for the watch and comment!
I also can’t confirm if it’s Astorath or Asgorath …
"A mere primordial power"
[Looks at Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Ubtao, and the Elder Evils]
28:38 Also, if you're reading the 4E Draconomicon, then I feel like there's your problem. I'm pretty sure that is detailing the Nentir Vale setting, not Forgotten Realms. That's like asking "In Baldur's Gate 3, why didn't Mordenkainen or Bigby do something about the Absolute?", unless I'm missing something (I know the Sword Coast Adventures Guide mentions Io's death at the hands of Erek-Hus, but is he mentioned as such in any other explicitly Forgotten Realms work?).
In my lore, I do a mishmash of Fizban's Treasury of Dragons First World concept where all worlds are made of pieces of the First World, creating a sympathetic link between them, so memories of events that happened in other worlds bleed into the Forgotten Realms and vice versa, especially with multiversal deities who may have memories overlap between what happened in one world and what happened in another. Furthermore, there might have been deific refugees from the Nentir Vale who set up on Toril (though not necessarily in Faerun, maybe Maztica, Anchorome, Katashaka, Osse, and/or Kara-Tur), and they brought with them tales of how things went down in their world (or if the tale of Io getting killed and being turned into Bahamut and Tiamat is purely a dragonborn myth, then it was brought with them by Primordial refugees who settled on Abeir).
That said, where's his "World Serpent Aspect" origin story?
Man im so Glad im not GM anymore..
Trying to Make this work with this Bunch of Retcons will be a Pain..
Much better to Scrap evrything and create your Own stuff from Zero..haha xD
If I were a character I would likely not care what happened 7,000 years ago. I would want to eat, find a good tavern, some companions and look for treasure while doing some serious exploring.
Then if I lived to tell of my adventures....I would start designing my home, my clothes, my weapons and magic for the next trip. Egos play a huge part in story telling. Who's on first? What's on second? Depends on the narrator.... Have fun is the point. Captivate the attention of the prettiest tavern wench and treat her to a night out. She's a doppelganger anyway.
Wait i thougjt io was still alive what about io and the times of trouble, the sundering and helm killing mystra is that not Canon?
Welcome to D&D Retcons :)
@@RichesandLiches lol jeez just when I was starting to get a grasp on d and d lore
That is Ao, the overgod. Easily confused but two different gods with similar names
@@2g33ksgamingttv3 okay thanks for clearing it up
we need more dragon gods tiamat bahamut are boring what about a insane lovecraft dragon god
Was the intro an AI voice or something?
If you are a dragon making up a religion, your not gonna say your entire species comes from a defeated primordial. No your gonna say your species comes from the most all powerful all created god in the whole universe because you are perfect and your god is perfect, except those dbag metal dragons they came from a "Renegade" a traitor.
Its nothing but chromatic dragon religous propaganda to please their own extreme racist views that they are greater then all other beings.
My headcannon is Asgoroth was a primordial, and they were defeated by another primordial, primordials fought its well documented in other stories. Their blood probably created the dragons and would be a logical link as to why dragons have elemental connections, fire, ice, lightning ect.
Its not impossible for a primordial to later become a god either, Asgorath could still live and now be a god. but if Asgoarth is going to start a religion they wont claim to just be the creator of dragons but to try and claim to be the mightest greatest creator of the universe cause thats what dragons do, they see themselves and the best and greatest, the masters of delusion.
Asgoarth is certainly a god, they have a ton of worshippers to not be, but most likely not as strong as their religion claims to be. You can never trust a dragon to give you an accurate measure of their power, they will always grandstand and exagerate their power, wealth and status its just in their blood. Blood they got from Asgorath.
matrion zenthos
Can you tell me who is the artist for the art at 11:16?
Thank you for watching - I have a commercial license to create my own art. Any art not mine is credited in the videos.
It’s AI art, just go on midjourney or whatever if you want to replicate “his” art
Couldn't the two dragon gods be the dragon versions of Selune and Shar?
really cool and complete video but, lizardmen and troglodytes aren't dragonkind, they descend from the Sarrukh
for me I have always assumed Asgorath was a primordial an then he/she/it created the dragons who then started venerating him/her/it then making he/she/it a god but I like you theorie, basically the reverse of the mine
You are correct, I did a whole video on the Sarrukh - th-cam.com/video/TkBpapZKjTo/w-d-xo.html
They are not dragonkind... but the lore says that dragonkind AND some lizardmen and troglodytes DO worship Asgorath, as the World Serpent.
@@RichesandLiches soooo ... the world seprent or whatever the name of the god of the Sarrukh (don't remember honestly) is aspect of Asgorath/Io ?
Yes... that is one mythologies of which there are many. :)
The Blood of Vol
Or just a disgusting reptile 😂 u77:07i:158@ll
Not totally correct story, but pretty close to actual events >:) Speaking of genders, he was a male originally, but became a transgender(not a female). And no, dragon was never defeated and was never split into bahamut/tiamat, so he's still all right.