00:00 - Intro 00:22 - Background Info 01:17 - What is the "The Slog?" 02:05 - My take on what "The Slog" is 03:06 - WoT books published between 1996 and 2003 03:53 - Surprise? 03:58 - Shifting narrative focus 04:28 - RJs focus on Repetition 05:06 - Stream of Consciousness? 05:42 - The Point, if you don't care about anything else. 06:44 - Outro 07:21 - The letter "S"
I think that some warning is warranted. Like "hey, just so you know, right around book 6 or 7, the pace slows down. It'll pick back up, so don't worry, but if you're not feeling those books, don't give up."
@@user-K8T Just because you think it slows down, doesn't mean it will be that way for everyone. In fact, by telling someone it slows down, you've now planted the seed in their head that the series they were enjoying becomes less enjoyable the further they go. Heck, that might have happened to you and you just perpetuated it. Don't use terms like "slog". It's extremely disrespectful of the author's work. It's real simple: If you don't like it, stop reading. But don't try to ruin the story for others just because the author didn't do everything YOU wanted him to.
@@DaneofHalves ... The slog was actually my favorite part of the series. Winter's Heart was my #1 book. But I STILL think that warning people may be warranted. I was warned. I went in knowing it may slow down for a few books and I should expect it. And I ended up loving them. But warning someone that a few books are more maneuvering and set up than action packed? Yeah, warranted. Also, sometimes writers have worse books as compared to others within the series. It is what it is. See Jim Butcher's Fool Moon. Not everything anyone produces is going to be a winner. It's true of my writing just as much as it is of Robert Jordan's.
@@DaneofHalves also, there's at least one book that basically ends without warning and with almost no noticeable movement in most of the story. Like, this isn't just people complaining because they wanted everything just so, this is MOSTLY justified frustration from readers. Especially readers who were reading as it came out in real time.
I appreciate this! I actually enjoyed the slog for the reasons you said - particularly because it gives us a greater appreciate of Jordan's immense, rich worldbuilding.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand exactly! for first time readers, they might be tough to get through. But for us rereaders, it's a chance to immerse ourselves in the world even more
I just started the WOT, and I’m happy you made this video! I was very curious about the Slog so thank you for this informative video. It’s very encouraging to me now to finish the series!
Thank you! "The Slog" feels rough when you are reading for the first time but really it's a wealth of world building. Ask any WoT fan what many of their favorite super deep world building parts are and you can bet that they all get tons of time devoted to them in "The Slog"
Holy crap. I never knew how fast RJ was writing/pushing out these books at the start-that's insane. Forgive me if you covered this, but I also feel like the perception of "the slog" is based on a person's reading speed (I hit pause on the video at your first mention of the white tower in case of spoilers). I've only been through the first 3 books, but as a slow reader myself, I found the lengthy descriptions and details to be a whole lot of information to process. It gets hard for my brain to sort out what's important and what isn't, which can be taxing on my focus. Because as I've already learned, there are tiny mentions and details that can clue you in on other things. That's just my take. I'm going to continue going through your videos with the utmost care to avoid spoilers lol!
Yes and good stop! This video does have some late series spoilers (as do most of the videos on my channel) so please exercise caution! I am right there with you on reading speed. I watched your TEotW review earlier and found myself nodding when you brought up that you re-read entire sections while reading. I do the same and it was difficult for me in WoT to break the habit. I'm on my first re-read now (in TDR) and I am loving it even more now that I am not sweating about where is the plot going, how does it end, is that button on this dress important? What if it's a Ter'angreal?!
I remember thinking at the time, when reading all the endless descriptions, that this guy is writing these books with a movie in mind. He is handing the look and feel of the world, neatly packaged, over to potential producers. I dearly hope the writers of the tv series don't get too caught up in their own self-importance and move away from RJ's vision. I have just started my third read, up to chapter 5 of The Great Hunt "as we speak". The excitement is still there, perhaps more gripping now, because I have the internet, with its maps, and insightful observations such as yours, Bard.
I appreciate and echo much of your sentiments. I also didn’t know so many passionate fans were out there and still active. I think we don’t have much to worry about from the show team. I’m generally positive about what I’ve seen and heard, and I think they are in track for a full series adaptation opposed to book by book one. This does mean that stuff gets changed and cut, but so long as the heart and soul of the work is there we’ll be satisfied at the end. I’m confident we are in good hands. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand I'll probably grumble a bit at first, then like it despite myself. Scary to think I first picked it up 30-odd years ago as a relatively young man. I just retired recently, and RJ - James - still has my attention; "The Grave is no bar to my call". Your reply was as thoughtful as your work, thanks.
Crossroads of Twilight is the only book that left me feeling disappointed, or at least like I didn't get the payoff I expected based on the previous nine books. It was also the first time I had to wait for the next book. Knife of Dreams was released about two months after I finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Love this! I started the series my freshman year of high school back in 94 and was caught up and had to start waiting beginning with Crown of Swords. I am just finishing my umpteenth reread and here is my hot take: the slog starts at Fires of Heaven and ends with Knife of Dreams, but it is actually not a slog at all. When you can read straight through without having to wait it’s barely noticeable. Except for Elayne’s POV with claiming the Lion throne, that is the true PLOD.
Even with Elayne’s ascension it’s not really a content issue, but a pacing one. Had her story been more built to and better placed throughout I think it could’ve been remember fondly. Instead we get a large chunk of her chapters at a time.
I 100% agree. I Just recently finished my first readthrough of the series and it did not feel like a slog at all. Pacing definitely slowed down world building shot WAY up and it was great. I think the biggest negative is that the climaxes of those books are not nearly as exciting as the past books. I can totally see how if I had to experience that wait between book releases I would have had a slightly worse experience. Side note: The slowest book in the "Slog" also had my favorite character development for Matt, soo...
As a counter, I finished the series last year after starting it 7 years before that. I had done no research and actually found out about the books from many recommendations on Sanderson's podcast writing excuses, so I knew nothing about "the slog". I just started reading. I almost permanently put it down after each book after Lord of Chaos. I read the first five (I read New Spring first) in two years (I have to have a few pallet cleansers between books in a series otherwise I find that may brain wants new characters and I risk never picking it back up again) but then it took me five years to read the next six books. I almost put it down permanently after 6, 7, 8, and 9 because I was so bored with the inaction. Almost two years passed between me reading 7 and even picking up 8. Conclusion, the slog was real for me and I hadn't even heard of it before the last two years.
"Lord of chaos" had one of the best battle scenes I've seen in any form of entertainment.... I'm over halfway through "crown of swords," and I like it. Major plot lines are being sown up.
Yeah the Perrin/Faile story line does stay past it's welcome. I'm usually on the side of defending it because folks tend to attack the characters instead of the slow pace of the story. Elayne's ascension arc didn't bother me that much, it was relatively short but because it ran concurrent to Perrin/Faile/Shaido, it feels ages longer.
Agreed! And even though those books were slower that rich world building did and does totally make it worth reading (and rereading) those books! I always pick out a new detail, or several, and I loved the intrigues in the tower and the different players. Great vid!
Yes! When I was going through my first read the pace did trip me up. I now suggest to non-binge readers to take a break after LoC. Read other books, watch some tv shows! It’s easier to jump back in at ACoS than PoD or Winter’s Heart if the pace throws you off. And you are right about the details! RJ did a wonderful job crafting the most re-readable series.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand he sure did! Those are the books that could be considered “info dumps” of what is happening in this vast terrain leading up to Tarmon Gaidon, but it actually paints a complex picture of this world from different perspectives. Ugh I love it 💛
I totally agree with you! I honestly feel like the only people who complain about the slog while reading it for the first time now are people who have been /told/ there is a slog. I didn't notice it at all - and didn't know I was supposed to notice a 'slog' - when I read them through. Even though I read them as they were still being published, I only noticed the phenomenal expansion of the world and internal struggles of the characters I loved in a setting I adored through those books. I honestly wish people would stop talking about the slog like it's a real thing - especially in reviews meant to entice new readers - and let people experience the story for themselves.
Yes the slog is placebo! I felt it my first time because so had been TOLD to expect it. In retrospect, I built Dragonmount in my head when it was really Watch Hill.
Actually I've just been told it's awesome. After four books, I don't see any awesomeness. And It slowed so much during book three that I am struggling to get through any more of it
@@paulthomassen5007 There's a difference between a book just not being for you and it being incorrectly paced. The entire series is definitely a slower pace than many modern series. Sorry to hear it wasn't your cup of tea.
@@aprilshighfantasysoul5891, it's not only the pacing but also the editing or lack thereof. A third of the text could have been slashed without impeding the story.
When I first read the series, this was when the final book was known to be coming but not yet released, I had to take a few breaks because it was getting to be a bit much and, for lack of a better word, sloggy. What also killed the momentum was getting into the long summer plot during summer and reading about the characters complaining about the heat while feeling the heat wasn’t fun so I had to halt reading the next book until it had cooled down. By the time the final book was released I was barely halfway through the series so that shows how bad it hit me. However the ‘slog’ itself didn’t kill me, it was the overly long plots like the “Plotline of Doom” where you were 3/4 books in and zero progress was made.
100% Valid. I took several long breaks after book 6. It's in retrospect that I appreciate these books and plotlines, but when you are trying to get to the end it feels forever long!
I'm new to this series, on book 7. I don't feel a slog at all. But I'm listening on audible at work. about 12-15 hours a day. I think I could see how actually reading it might feel slow.
Great point. The first book I waited for was A Crown of Swords, so I was around for the publishing of "the slog". A book every two years is fast, and especially in hindsight. But it wasn't fast back then, I can promise you that! And there were not nearly as easy to do recaps on the internet as it is now. So many times you had to re-read all the books everytime and new one came out, which added to the feeling. Two years is fast, but it's not nearly fast enough when trying to remember what the hell you were reading about 😅
Yes! I can't believe I didn't even talk about the role of the internet and how the nascent websites didn't have the full chapter summaries completed yet!
Ok about the Slog… I read TEOTW when it first came out to paperback. Then I bought up until winters Heart in hard copy … then I stopped. The slog got to me because I couldn’t reflect back on those books and remember much. I felt like I had to reread from Path of Daggers on up all over again. I just now went through all of the audio books to the series (I would have reread them but had eye surgery and getting older just doesn’t work well with reading 20k pages anymore. I still have to listen to the prequal though. After “listening” to the “slog part” again I would still say it’s the best example of a SLOG in ALL OF LITERATURE… however it develops the world into a bigger world and helps create the feeling of the “INSTITUTION” of the White tower AND MANY OTHER INSTITUTIONS including the conglomeration of the Dragon and other groups. Some of the books don’t have a big battle in them but Randy’s love life/ being trapped in a box 📦 and many other important events do happen. It was still hard to listen to at times although it adds to the franchise and only hinders it in the now while reading. Later you will be thankful for it as you would the extended dvd versions of THR LORD OF THE RINGS. Still I must say the last book in the series is awesome! So you will be greatly rewarded with the books afterwards. It’s like watching Star Wars “Attack of the Clones”. Which was mostly ALL SETUP. Still, the next film in the Star Wars series was fast paced and exciting. My hat is off to whoever reads the whole thing… AND/OR LISTENS to the whole series. Listening to a series this grand takes a LOT of investment time. 40 hours on average per book. Yikes!!!
I will say, I think it still exists in those slower books, but while it can be tiring, I absolutely agree about your points that the level of detail and worldbuilding are really what allow you to just dive in so far.
THIS!! I honestly got lost in the slog in RT. I've never finished the series. Which is strange for me since I'm a completionist and rarely has a series moved me to tears repeatedly. But you named the 2 things that broke me. The repetitive 'descriptions of descriptions' and the 'S' names. OMG the 'S' names. Seeing them listed like that brought back SO much confusion for me. lol And yes the uncertainty is a bit demoralizing too. Definitely going to finish it before the TV show gets there but this has inspired me to fight through it as it will likely feel different since I KNOW that the series is in fact complete. There is also SO much more 'reader support' online today. Thanks!
I'm currently reading the WoT and am on book 11 KoD. I have to disagree with you, there definitely is a slog. I struggled with books 6, 8 and 10. Surprisingly, I actually enjoyed books 7 and 9. However, I wouldn't compare them in quality to the first 4 books. Crossroads of Twilight, Perin's chapters were the most mind numbing things I've read in fantasy literature. Especially the whole chapter where he does absolutely nothing but walk through camp and bitch about life in his mind. I'm just glad I survived the series, but can understand why many quit at this point.
I luckily and unwittingly did a preemptive strike on the slog. When it started becoming clear that the series was going to be much longer than 4 or 5 books, I vowed to stop reading until it was done. When Jordan died and Sanderson was named to finish, I started again at book 1 and by the time I caught up, the story was finished! So I got to read the whole series straight through with no sloggy parts at all! Then I listened to the entire thing on audio, then re-read again etc. I definitely agree the waiting must have contributed greatly to the slog, but now is a moot issue. So many new readers will be coming once the show starts! We'll see if the slog gets them! 😏
Interesting view. I tend to gravitate to that. I actually think these books expanding the world makes those endings and the world waaay more epic and satisfying... For me, Egwene, Elaine and Nynaeve's growth during "the slog" alone, make it worth it for me. I struggle with Perrin and Faile's story through "the slog" series of books...
Yes Perrin's peak happens too early and it's a sad artifact of the 6 (or so) book outline RJ set out with. I love spending more time with the Aes Sedai. It really gives us a deeper look into the world.
I'm not sure the "slog" applies as much to new readers who work straight through the series, at least not in the same way. I recently finished my first read in about 2 months. I definitely noticed my enjoyment waning in the back part of the 2nd third of the series. I didn't consider it problems with the books as a whole, but a focus on storylines I barely cared about or felt should have already been completed. The succession plotline began to irritate me every time one of those chapters came up. After finishing the story, I realize the problem that resolving it earlier brings though.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand I can definitely see where the frustration comes from with the original readers. Going through 4-6 years with what seems to be fairly simple plot points not resolving. I'm happy I didn't have to experience that. (cue my regret over ASOIAF)
I'll be honest, this is the first video I've seen on this channel, and I only clicked because I was ready to hate you for having knife of dreams in the thumbnail but this was a good video.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand Yes it's either my second or third favorite book in the series, I'm glad this video had introduced me to your channel as I've found it wonderful so far.
Those eyebrows after "that's more than some author's have done in ten years" through more shade than Cold Rocks Hold... As someone who just found the series 4 years ago, I didn't feel the slog at all. I read them all in under 6 months. The only book that even felt slow was Crossroads of Twilight but that's only because I really wanted to see the results of the end of Winter's Heart (One of my favorite endings in all the books). Even so I liked seeing the reaction of people around the world to said ending. Reeeeally cool.
I'm reading it for the first time and just finished Crown of Swords. I'm afraid if I decide to take a break I will never get back to it. Eventually enough time will pass, that I won't remember well enough and feel like I should reread the first books.
6 books in nine years. George RR Martin, 5 books in twenty four years. Fun fact - during the end of the slog era, 2001 or so, I saw a website bashing Jordan, and telling people to read George RR Martin instead, because he actually writes books at a decent pace, unlike Jordan who was "clearly" slowing down.
"Stop reading this brilliant author and instead read from his friend who ripped off half his ideas and writes at 1/5 of the pace! I assure you it will be SO MUCH MORE EPIC!" -Anonymous "Fan"
@@derekhunter5040 No, I seriously want to know. I have read all 14.5 WoT novels, the Big White Book, the Companion, all 5 aSoI&F novels, all 3 Dunk & Egg stories, Fire & Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. I would like to know which things were ripped off. I am not challenging or denying or doubting it, I just want to see your take on this.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand aren’t we. I tortured myself reading through the song of ice and fire. Martin has the attention span of a toddler. I‘ll see you at the inn
Apart from Perrin's parts I did not feel those books as a slog. I just finished the last book at the early summer so I am a new reader without all that existential burden you mentioned. I'd go even so far as to appoint the "slog-books" one of my favorites of the whole series! After finishing book #14 I read some Sanderson and last week picked up The New Spring which I was saving for the rainy day and oh forgotten gods how I had missed the pacing of Jordan! I'm all in if author wants to describe costume for two pages and then the surrounding scene for another two. Tolkien and Jordan are my jam for sure. What DID feel slog for me was Aiel Waste parts of the early books. I was actually close to dropping the whole series because I just wanted to get away from that damn desert! I think my issue is with Aiel culture and how OP it is. How can people with sticks and leather buckler's be that over powered against cultures with steel swords and much heavier armor? And without magic, no one could realistically hide as well as Aiel did. That broke immersion for me and took away from believably. And try as I may, I couldn't picture them as cool or anything but I am eager to see how the show will depict them. Also eager to see how I feel about them on my reread once I do it.
Wow that's a hot take as many folks love the Aiel Waste sections! I agree about the Aiel being kind of OP but there are plenty of historical cultures similar to the Aiel that were quite successful, if not to the same degree. I think their real inspiration is the Fremen, but it's not perfect as the Fremen were taught the Weirding Way.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand Yeah, I have noticed I'm quite alone with my opinion here :D I am unsure what historic cultures they are closest to that has been successful against cultures that are closest to those others in WOT that are heavily armored. Guerrilla warfare, tactics and over powering with numbers could tip the scale but nothing explains how so inferior gear could beat much more advanced armies. Sure, they might be superior in dueling against similarly equipped wetlander tho. I've been practicing HEMA so it is my curse to take notice of these things :D
@@WMfin Fair point. I would counter that most of the armies of the Wetlands are as heavily armored as you might think. Yes they have breast plate but not every nation employs full plate knights or heavy cavalry. And remember while they might look similar at distance upon close inspection the nations of the Wetlands are not 1:1 the same level of tech as any Late Renaissance/Early Modern entities from our Age. But of course I am at a disadvantage on the specifics of HEMA and might have incorrect assumptions. Thanks for commenting so thoughtfully. It's quite to discuss and the reason I started my channel!
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand WOT discussion is something I could do all day! ^^ My understanding of armor does still lack. We practiced with different weapons but had modern protective gear on. However, the evolution of weapons and armor goes hand in hand: oh shit, that kind of sword is commonly used now, let's change our armor like this and that. And another goes: oh shit, they are protected better, maybe if I counter that with this and that modification to my sword and so on.. So I'm trying to picture the armor of those armies in accordance to the weaponry used in the books. Was RJ aware of these things I don't know but that's where my mind goes.. Now, armies that have developed to fight with and against gear shown in books suddenly face Aiel with unorthodox combination of weapons and armor and fighting style. Well, there were Aiel War, from which they could have learned to counter their style but maybe it is so different to them that it prevails? I'm still having trouble seeing how it could be THAT much better. Also, spear is awesome weapon and you can find multiple videos where spear user washes the floor with sword fighter. However, Aiel spears are rather short one handed spears, wore on their backs so I am more unfamiliar with them. I did find this video which actually alleviates some of my concerns and arguments. Those thrusts are brutal! But still, if an army is using longswords, they'd most probably be wearing armor of same "level" of technology so my mind goes somewhere 1400 century.. th-cam.com/video/ehH6McZ0wB8/w-d-xo.html
I personally didn't feel the slog (maybe a bit in Crossroads tho) because I just read the books so fast haha. I'm due for a re-read this year, I'll pay more attention to the slog to see if it is as horrendous as some people claim it is!
Love this video and totally agree! I read Eye of the World in 2014 and had already bought a copy of the entire series before starting so I didn't even have to wait to go to the store between starting the next book. Reading through I never felt like there was a slog and my only frustration was SPOILER How long it took for Perrin to finally save Faile! Good grief! That plot took several books AND in the end was apparently just like 52 days (number of knots he tied on this leather strap) LOL And I'm only upset about that because I loved Perrin so much and didn't really care about Faile... so I think on a reread I won't have the expectation of that resolving any time soon and won't be so bothered :)
I've listened to 7 books in a couple of weeks. I can't follow any character names unless mentioned repeatedly. It turns out you don't really have to... The story is still comprehensible without memorizing every name.
I’ve always felt that Crossroads of Twilight(which is the red headed step child of the series…wait does that make it Rand?) and Knife of Dreams were intended as one epic book like Shadow Rising/Fires of Heaven/Lord of Chaos but TOR needed a book out for their publishing schedule and Jordan was overdue so he published what he had ready. If it had been one book I don’t think we would look at this period as the slog. Path of Daggers wasn’t as epic as the rest of the series imho but it was satisfactory, Winter’s Heart was a bit slow but with an epic finale, and the combination of CoT and KoD I think would have been a great start to the endgame of the series.
I can definitely see that. That would've made CoT/KoD the longest book at the time and tracks with Jordan's philosophy on AMoL originally being a single 1800-2500 page tome.
All I know is that I considered Path of Daggers to be Strike 1, Crossroads of Jack Shit to be Strike 2, and the announcement of the expansion and rerelease of New Spring to be Strike 3, and I was out. I am only now getting back to it this year. I sped through my reread of the first five relatively quickly for me, but Lord of Chaos is wearing me down a bit.
I just finished Crossroads of Twilight and 🥴. Just kidding. It wasn’t that bad. Yes, the plot didn’t move forward. Yes, there wasn’t much progress. The ending left you feeling like “that’s it?”. But, Robert toned down some of the brain pulling skirt straightening indignation crap a ton. And honestly, there are so many little stories happening that he had to spend time in each so when progress does happen it feels earned. I thought I was going to hate crossroads but it was ok. I wouldnt say it was good, but it was ok and will probably make the rest of the books more impactful. I subbed. Not gonna lie, guitars are confusing me hahaha. I kept waiting for it to suddenly be a music channel. Fine by me, I play guitar as well.
I've read the books last year, all 14 in rapid succession, and books 8 through 10 feel a little bit boring sometimes. But it isn't half as bad as people say.
Counterpoint: I started reading The Wheel Of Time in my teens while on an "I'll read anything if it's Fantasy™" phase (I'm now 47). I reached "the slog", and came to the conclusion that Jordan was milking the fuck out of it and stopped reading. I've never attempted to restart the series - because of the slog. So to me it absolutely is A Thing™ because it's why he lost my readership. Recontextualising it as "in the past" won't change my opinion that it's self-indulgent, unnecessarily bloated and a Waste Of Time™. Oh, and could Nynaeve stop tugging her fucking braid in *every* scene she's in please, I got that part of her "character" in the first damn book.
Books 8 and 10 are the slog for me. Book 6 is slower paced but has one of the best third act's of the series. Book 7 is also slower paced than past books but has some of the best character development in Rand, Mat and Nynaeve throughout and has some thrilling action segments Book 9 has similar issues as book 6 (slower pace, but with an epic ending) Books 8 and 10 however are beyond slower in pace and just put the over arching storyline on pause imo
Thanks for commenting! Yours is one of the popular interpretations for the slog and I definitely think it has some solid points behind. For me I found books 6-8 quite slow, book 9 is underrated IMO, and 10 is so short that it didn’t bug me.
Although I agree with the excellent arguments made in the video, I disagree with the premise that the slog was not real. The issue also, I believe, is that after Lord of Chaos, the books became more serialized and less self-contained. There was not so much of a rising and falling plot structure in each book, with battle at the end. Lord of Chaos was less climactic, but there was Dumai's Wells, even if Mat, Egwene & Nynaeve/Elayne all just kind of petered out with no win at the end, and so much was still unresolved with Perrin & Faile and Rand's political issues and the Sammael plan being much discussed and never carried out. Then the "slog" hits, and while there are multiple storylines in each book, no more than one ends in a big action climax (Rand in 7, Mat in 9, Egwene in 10), while the others have cliffhangers or set up future developments without resolving anything. Path of Daggers throws even that structure out the window, with the action tending more to the beginning of the book, and even the action at the end is unresolved or a setup for future plots. There's little action in most of the plots in Winter's Heart and what seems like low stakes until the Cleansing hits, and Egwene is mostly absent & her story moves backward chronologically. Even Mat's plot, with the dramatic climax, is more simmering tension than physical conflict. Crossroads of Twilight is infamously hated (although I always answer CoT to polls about favorite WoT books just to mess with the results), because it's mostly setup. Rand is hardly in it, Perrin looks at the enemy base and goes grain shopping. Mat goes on a first date. Elayne takes a bath and has a prenatal checkup, and Egwene talks to a lot more people before a quick action sequence and then another cliffhanger. To fans looking for the obvious gratification of the early books, 7-10 represented a let down and a failure of action and excitement. The characters' meteoric leveling up seemed to abruptly stop as they began encountering frustrations and limitations and having to do a lot more to gain less. But the interiority of their development was still going on, the worldbuilding increased, not just in revelations or descriptions of the setting, but the way it all worked together being illustrated as well. This was all necessary setup for the end. People think book 11 was finally good, but it was really just the wrap-up of stories that began in the prior four books. We don't get the satisfaction of Faile's rescue, Mat's military victories, Elayne claiming the crown or Egwene showing her stuff in the Tower, without all the development and set up coming from before. Rand's own sufferings don't hit as hard without the descent of the prior books making his injury seeming the crowing horror, instead of just a relatively minor one in the grand scheme of things. Even little moments, like Galad's duel or the revelation of Moiraine's letter, only land because of what was established in the prior books. There IS a slog, but it has to do with the series evolving, and fan perceptions staying in the same place. It slogged for people who were only looking at the movements of the characters and ignoring their interiority and development and the expansion of the series. Wheel of Time grew and became more, and lots of fans thought they wanted it to stay what they initially enjoyed. Some casual fans who were never in it for more than that wanted it to stay that way. But that's the difference between an epic fantasy series and a collection of pulp pastiches. If they got what they thought they wanted, Wheel of Time would largely be forgotten as anything more than a disposable fantasy story with little meaning, that you didn't much care about after it was over.
Yes this!! While reading it I started comparing it to how brandon sanderson structures his stormlight books. The wheel of time books definitely need to be grouped into different story chunks so readers are only really satisfied after completing each “chunk” rather than each book. SA is written such that all the POVs have an arc which converges into a massive climax, that way each book is somewhat self-contained. Nothing particular right or wrong with either, just interesting to compare.
@@aliaibrahim4517 I never read anything of Sanderson, because his writing style & voice is not my thing. I tried to get into Mistborn when he was announced as the writer to complete WoT, but despite things I liked, such as the action choreography & creative uses of magic, the characters and dialogue fell flat for me. "The wheel of time books definitely need to be grouped into different story chunks so readers are only really satisfied after completing each “chunk” rather than each book." If you are saying that's how plot focused readers should look at the series, I agree. If you mean the books should be written differently, not at all. That was one of Sanderson's biggest mistakes with his approach to dividing what Jordan intended to be a single novel, into three. There is always a thematic unity to even the serialized books in Jordan's WoT, that is absent in Sanderson's. He totally undercut ToM in order to gratify fans who demanded an obvious resolution and "win" in Gathering Storm. In LoC, there is the theme of inversion, of the powerful brought low and the lowly raised up, and of false leaders and empty triumphs, while real successes get overlooked. In aCoS, the theme concerns the price of power and the dangers of proximity to power, with characters not having to pay to get power, but rather suddenly learning that the power they have comes with a price it's too late to avoid. In tPoD, the theme is the dangers of leadership and how fraught the choices are when one has a great deal of power, how even simple missteps can have bloody consequences. In WH, things are at a nadir, regardless of where people are in their assorted plotlines. Mat is near the end of his Ebou Dar plot, Elayne is setting up her fight for the throne and Perrin has just begun his search for Faile, but they are all at a low point. Breaking these into separate books, loses that. The whole point of Rand doing the Cleansing is that it represents a new beginning. CoT is a book of transitions, showing in different ways how the world is changing and deteriorating as the Pattern circles the drain. Separating Perrin's discovery of vermin in So Harbor, from Mat's encounter with the ghosts, from Egwene's observations of rotting food and Elayne's dealing with arson, makes each of those things a minor incident, rather than a pattern of doom. Sanderson does not seem to have grasped that, and thought it just fine to put Rand and Egwene in a different book from Mat, Perrin and Elayne, just because those characters never meet during the time period covered by both.
I have to heartily disagree. While I do think the lack of quality of books 8-10 might be overstated I notice that there is a fair bit of apologia coming from the fandom now that these books weren't so bad. I dropped the series some 20 years ago when PoD first came out, and finally got back around to power through. These books are badly paced. Flat out. There are great scenes in all three of them, but there is often entire chapters that could be excised and you wouldn't even lose much worldbuilding, or at best they could be chopped down and combined. The worst of the lot is Crossroads of Twilight. That is an awful book. Not just a bad Wheel of Time book, but honestly a bad book overall. It does have a couple of great chapters, Jordan is still a good writer... but it is the book where all of his worst qualities are on display to excess. I have never seen a fantasy book where so little happens that the important bits of what DOES happen could have been a prologue to the next book, or an epilogue to the previous one. Structurally it is the worst but all three of these books needed to be chopped up and combined, into one... MAAAYBE 2 books.
I know I found it a slog because the last time I tried to re-read the books, I gave up around book 4 or 5. I am beginning a re-read now, and with them all released, I plan to power through, but there may be some parts that I skip or skim through knowing that certain details don't end up being important.
I couldn't get past the annoying braid tugging and skirt smoothing type descriptives. The characters all have their own little way of irritating me. Maybe it gets better later? I want to find a way to like this series but maybe it's just not for me.
00:00 - Intro
00:22 - Background Info
01:17 - What is the "The Slog?"
02:05 - My take on what "The Slog" is
03:06 - WoT books published between 1996 and 2003
03:53 - Surprise?
03:58 - Shifting narrative focus
04:28 - RJs focus on Repetition
05:06 - Stream of Consciousness?
05:42 - The Point, if you don't care about anything else.
06:44 - Outro
07:21 - The letter "S"
I agree, and it drives me nuts when veterans warn new or potential readers about “The Slog”.
I think that some warning is warranted. Like "hey, just so you know, right around book 6 or 7, the pace slows down. It'll pick back up, so don't worry, but if you're not feeling those books, don't give up."
I agree! Warn people as you said. …It picks back up
@@user-K8T Just because you think it slows down, doesn't mean it will be that way for everyone. In fact, by telling someone it slows down, you've now planted the seed in their head that the series they were enjoying becomes less enjoyable the further they go. Heck, that might have happened to you and you just perpetuated it. Don't use terms like "slog". It's extremely disrespectful of the author's work.
It's real simple: If you don't like it, stop reading. But don't try to ruin the story for others just because the author didn't do everything YOU wanted him to.
@@DaneofHalves ... The slog was actually my favorite part of the series. Winter's Heart was my #1 book. But I STILL think that warning people may be warranted. I was warned. I went in knowing it may slow down for a few books and I should expect it. And I ended up loving them. But warning someone that a few books are more maneuvering and set up than action packed? Yeah, warranted.
Also, sometimes writers have worse books as compared to others within the series. It is what it is. See Jim Butcher's Fool Moon. Not everything anyone produces is going to be a winner. It's true of my writing just as much as it is of Robert Jordan's.
@@DaneofHalves also, there's at least one book that basically ends without warning and with almost no noticeable movement in most of the story. Like, this isn't just people complaining because they wanted everything just so, this is MOSTLY justified frustration from readers. Especially readers who were reading as it came out in real time.
I appreciate this! I actually enjoyed the slog for the reasons you said - particularly because it gives us a greater appreciate of Jordan's immense, rich worldbuilding.
That’s great! Personally I did struggle with PoD and WH but in retrospect I understand how much they allow us to enjoy the world more fully.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand exactly! for first time readers, they might be tough to get through. But for us rereaders, it's a chance to immerse ourselves in the world even more
I just started the WOT, and I’m happy you made this video! I was very curious about the Slog so thank you for this informative video. It’s very encouraging to me now to finish the series!
Thank you! "The Slog" feels rough when you are reading for the first time but really it's a wealth of world building. Ask any WoT fan what many of their favorite super deep world building parts are and you can bet that they all get tons of time devoted to them in "The Slog"
Holy crap. I never knew how fast RJ was writing/pushing out these books at the start-that's insane. Forgive me if you covered this, but I also feel like the perception of "the slog" is based on a person's reading speed (I hit pause on the video at your first mention of the white tower in case of spoilers). I've only been through the first 3 books, but as a slow reader myself, I found the lengthy descriptions and details to be a whole lot of information to process. It gets hard for my brain to sort out what's important and what isn't, which can be taxing on my focus. Because as I've already learned, there are tiny mentions and details that can clue you in on other things. That's just my take. I'm going to continue going through your videos with the utmost care to avoid spoilers lol!
Yes and good stop! This video does have some late series spoilers (as do most of the videos on my channel) so please exercise caution!
I am right there with you on reading speed. I watched your TEotW review earlier and found myself nodding when you brought up that you re-read entire sections while reading. I do the same and it was difficult for me in WoT to break the habit. I'm on my first re-read now (in TDR) and I am loving it even more now that I am not sweating about where is the plot going, how does it end, is that button on this dress important? What if it's a Ter'angreal?!
I remember thinking at the time, when reading all the endless descriptions, that this guy is writing these books with a movie in mind. He is handing the look and feel of the world, neatly packaged, over to potential producers.
I dearly hope the writers of the tv series don't get too caught up in their own self-importance and move away from RJ's vision.
I have just started my third read, up to chapter 5 of The Great Hunt "as we speak". The excitement is still there, perhaps more gripping now, because I have the internet, with its maps, and insightful observations such as yours, Bard.
I appreciate and echo much of your sentiments. I also didn’t know so many passionate fans were out there and still active.
I think we don’t have much to worry about from the show team. I’m generally positive about what I’ve seen and heard, and I think they are in track for a full series adaptation opposed to book by book one. This does mean that stuff gets changed and cut, but so long as the heart and soul of the work is there we’ll be satisfied at the end. I’m confident we are in good hands.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand I'll probably grumble a bit at first, then like it despite myself.
Scary to think I first picked it up 30-odd years ago as a relatively young man. I just retired recently, and RJ - James - still has my attention; "The Grave is no bar to my call".
Your reply was as thoughtful as your work, thanks.
I'm sorry man, the show's crap.
@@tusharjoglekar Yes it is.
@@tusharjoglekar it's better than some book adaptations. Not as good as some others.
Crown of Swords was one of the best! And I really enjoyed Path of daggers too. For me only books 9 and 10 seemed "sloggy".
I 100% agree. Book 9 has some of my favorite scenes in the entire series. Although I do skip some of the poisoner scenes in book 9 and 10...
Crossroads of Twilight is the only book that left me feeling disappointed, or at least like I didn't get the payoff I expected based on the previous nine books. It was also the first time I had to wait for the next book. Knife of Dreams was released about two months after I finished Crossroads of Twilight.
Love this! I started the series my freshman year of high school back in 94 and was caught up and had to start waiting beginning with Crown of Swords. I am just finishing my umpteenth reread and here is my hot take: the slog starts at Fires of Heaven and ends with Knife of Dreams, but it is actually not a slog at all. When you can read straight through without having to wait it’s barely noticeable. Except for Elayne’s POV with claiming the Lion throne, that is the true PLOD.
Even with Elayne’s ascension it’s not really a content issue, but a pacing one. Had her story been more built to and better placed throughout I think it could’ve been remember fondly. Instead we get a large chunk of her chapters at a time.
I 100% agree. I Just recently finished my first readthrough of the series and it did not feel like a slog at all. Pacing definitely slowed down world building shot WAY up and it was great. I think the biggest negative is that the climaxes of those books are not nearly as exciting as the past books. I can totally see how if I had to experience that wait between book releases I would have had a slightly worse experience. Side note: The slowest book in the "Slog" also had my favorite character development for Matt, soo...
Yes! I love seeing folks adopt this view!
As a counter, I finished the series last year after starting it 7 years before that. I had done no research and actually found out about the books from many recommendations on Sanderson's podcast writing excuses, so I knew nothing about "the slog". I just started reading. I almost permanently put it down after each book after Lord of Chaos. I read the first five (I read New Spring first) in two years (I have to have a few pallet cleansers between books in a series otherwise I find that may brain wants new characters and I risk never picking it back up again) but then it took me five years to read the next six books. I almost put it down permanently after 6, 7, 8, and 9 because I was so bored with the inaction. Almost two years passed between me reading 7 and even picking up 8.
Conclusion, the slog was real for me and I hadn't even heard of it before the last two years.
"Lord of chaos" had one of the best battle scenes I've seen in any form of entertainment.... I'm over halfway through "crown of swords," and I like it. Major plot lines are being sown up.
I agree with most of the opinions in this video. For me, though, the Perrin/Faile and Elayne ascension subplots really contribute to the slog feeling.
Yeah the Perrin/Faile story line does stay past it's welcome. I'm usually on the side of defending it because folks tend to attack the characters instead of the slow pace of the story. Elayne's ascension arc didn't bother me that much, it was relatively short but because it ran concurrent to Perrin/Faile/Shaido, it feels ages longer.
Agreed! And even though those books were slower that rich world building did and does totally make it worth reading (and rereading) those books! I always pick out a new detail, or several, and I loved the intrigues in the tower and the different players. Great vid!
Yes! When I was going through my first read the pace did trip me up. I now suggest to non-binge readers to take a break after LoC. Read other books, watch some tv shows! It’s easier to jump back in at ACoS than PoD or Winter’s Heart if the pace throws you off.
And you are right about the details! RJ did a wonderful job crafting the most re-readable series.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand he sure did! Those are the books that could be considered “info dumps” of what is happening in this vast terrain leading up to Tarmon Gaidon, but it actually paints a complex picture of this world from different perspectives. Ugh I love it 💛
I totally agree with you! I honestly feel like the only people who complain about the slog while reading it for the first time now are people who have been /told/ there is a slog. I didn't notice it at all - and didn't know I was supposed to notice a 'slog' - when I read them through. Even though I read them as they were still being published, I only noticed the phenomenal expansion of the world and internal struggles of the characters I loved in a setting I adored through those books. I honestly wish people would stop talking about the slog like it's a real thing - especially in reviews meant to entice new readers - and let people experience the story for themselves.
Yes the slog is placebo! I felt it my first time because so had been TOLD to expect it. In retrospect, I built Dragonmount in my head when it was really Watch Hill.
Actually I've just been told it's awesome. After four books, I don't see any awesomeness. And It slowed so much during book three that I am struggling to get through any more of it
@@paulthomassen5007 There's a difference between a book just not being for you and it being incorrectly paced. The entire series is definitely a slower pace than many modern series. Sorry to hear it wasn't your cup of tea.
@@aprilshighfantasysoul5891, it's not only the pacing but also the editing or lack thereof. A third of the text could have been slashed without impeding the story.
When I first read the series, this was when the final book was known to be coming but not yet released, I had to take a few breaks because it was getting to be a bit much and, for lack of a better word, sloggy. What also killed the momentum was getting into the long summer plot during summer and reading about the characters complaining about the heat while feeling the heat wasn’t fun so I had to halt reading the next book until it had cooled down. By the time the final book was released I was barely halfway through the series so that shows how bad it hit me.
However the ‘slog’ itself didn’t kill me, it was the overly long plots like the “Plotline of Doom” where you were 3/4 books in and zero progress was made.
100% Valid. I took several long breaks after book 6. It's in retrospect that I appreciate these books and plotlines, but when you are trying to get to the end it feels forever long!
I like your thoughts here Vance!
Thanks! Trying to dispel some old myths. So that they can be forgotten by the time the next turning comes, hopefully in 2021.
I'm new to this series, on book 7. I don't feel a slog at all. But I'm listening on audible at work. about 12-15 hours a day. I think I could see how actually reading it might feel slow.
Great point. The first book I waited for was A Crown of Swords, so I was around for the publishing of "the slog". A book every two years is fast, and especially in hindsight. But it wasn't fast back then, I can promise you that! And there were not nearly as easy to do recaps on the internet as it is now. So many times you had to re-read all the books everytime and new one came out, which added to the feeling. Two years is fast, but it's not nearly fast enough when trying to remember what the hell you were reading about 😅
Yes! I can't believe I didn't even talk about the role of the internet and how the nascent websites didn't have the full chapter summaries completed yet!
Ok about the Slog… I read TEOTW when it first came out to paperback. Then I bought up until winters Heart in hard copy … then I stopped. The slog got to me because I couldn’t reflect back on those books and remember much. I felt like I had to reread from Path of Daggers on up all over again. I just now went through all of the audio books to the series (I would have reread them but had eye surgery and getting older just doesn’t work well with reading 20k pages anymore. I still have to listen to the prequal though. After “listening” to the “slog part” again I would still say it’s the best example of a SLOG in ALL OF LITERATURE… however it develops the world into a bigger world and helps create the feeling of the “INSTITUTION” of the White tower AND MANY OTHER INSTITUTIONS including the conglomeration of the Dragon and other groups. Some of the books don’t have a big battle in them but Randy’s love life/ being trapped in a box 📦 and many other important events do happen. It was still hard to listen to at times although it adds to the franchise and only hinders it in the now while reading. Later you will be thankful for it as you would the extended dvd versions of THR LORD OF THE RINGS. Still I must say the last book in the series is awesome! So you will be greatly rewarded with the books afterwards. It’s like watching Star Wars “Attack of the Clones”.
Which was mostly ALL SETUP. Still, the next film in the Star Wars series was fast paced and exciting. My hat is off to whoever reads the whole thing… AND/OR LISTENS to the whole series. Listening to a series this grand takes a LOT of investment time. 40 hours on average per book. Yikes!!!
I will say, I think it still exists in those slower books, but while it can be tiring, I absolutely agree about your points that the level of detail and worldbuilding are really what allow you to just dive in so far.
THIS!! I honestly got lost in the slog in RT. I've never finished the series. Which is strange for me since I'm a completionist and rarely has a series moved me to tears repeatedly. But you named the 2 things that broke me. The repetitive 'descriptions of descriptions' and the 'S' names. OMG the 'S' names. Seeing them listed like that brought back SO much confusion for me. lol And yes the uncertainty is a bit demoralizing too. Definitely going to finish it before the TV show gets there but this has inspired me to fight through it as it will likely feel different since I KNOW that the series is in fact complete. There is also SO much more 'reader support' online today. Thanks!
You’re welcome! I’m glad you enjoyed this video!
There is a slog? I know the reason for it, but to me there is no slog anymore. I agree with your assessment.
I'm currently reading the WoT and am on book 11 KoD. I have to disagree with you, there definitely is a slog. I struggled with books 6, 8 and 10. Surprisingly, I actually enjoyed books 7 and 9. However, I wouldn't compare them in quality to the first 4 books. Crossroads of Twilight, Perin's chapters were the most mind numbing things I've read in fantasy literature. Especially the whole chapter where he does absolutely nothing but walk through camp and bitch about life in his mind. I'm just glad I survived the series, but can understand why many quit at this point.
I luckily and unwittingly did a preemptive strike on the slog. When it started becoming clear that the series was going to be much longer than 4 or 5 books, I vowed to stop reading until it was done. When Jordan died and Sanderson was named to finish, I started again at book 1 and by the time I caught up, the story was finished! So I got to read the whole series straight through with no sloggy parts at all! Then I listened to the entire thing on audio, then re-read again etc. I definitely agree the waiting must have contributed greatly to the slog, but now is a moot issue. So many new readers will be coming once the show starts! We'll see if the slog gets them! 😏
Lol! That’s an interesting reading experience for sure!
Interesting view. I tend to gravitate to that.
I actually think these books expanding the world makes those endings and the world waaay more epic and satisfying...
For me, Egwene, Elaine and Nynaeve's growth during "the slog" alone, make it worth it for me.
I struggle with Perrin and Faile's story through "the slog" series of books...
Yes Perrin's peak happens too early and it's a sad artifact of the 6 (or so) book outline RJ set out with.
I love spending more time with the Aes Sedai. It really gives us a deeper look into the world.
I'm not sure the "slog" applies as much to new readers who work straight through the series, at least not in the same way. I recently finished my first read in about 2 months. I definitely noticed my enjoyment waning in the back part of the 2nd third of the series. I didn't consider it problems with the books as a whole, but a focus on storylines I barely cared about or felt should have already been completed. The succession plotline began to irritate me every time one of those chapters came up. After finishing the story, I realize the problem that resolving it earlier brings though.
Yeah, it’s more annoying than it is infuriating in the age when all the books are published.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand I can definitely see where the frustration comes from with the original readers. Going through 4-6 years with what seems to be fairly simple plot points not resolving. I'm happy I didn't have to experience that. (cue my regret over ASOIAF)
I'll be honest, this is the first video I've seen on this channel, and I only clicked because I was ready to hate you for having knife of dreams in the thumbnail but this was a good video.
My thumbnail trick worked! Thanks for noticing! Personally KoD is one of my favorites.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand Yes it's either my second or third favorite book in the series, I'm glad this video had introduced me to your channel as I've found it wonderful so far.
@@not-a-person Thank you for the kind comment. I’m very happy that you find my little nerdy corner engaging!
I'm reading The Eye of the World, and I'm already feeling The Slog
Those eyebrows after "that's more than some author's have done in ten years" through more shade than Cold Rocks Hold...
As someone who just found the series 4 years ago, I didn't feel the slog at all. I read them all in under 6 months. The only book that even felt slow was Crossroads of Twilight but that's only because I really wanted to see the results of the end of Winter's Heart (One of my favorite endings in all the books). Even so I liked seeing the reaction of people around the world to said ending. Reeeeally cool.
Right? I think I felt it because so many people told me it existed. That’s why I made this video, to assuage fears about starting the series!
Sometimes people just need to take a break. If your reading these back to back, it gets tough about half way through the series.
Yes! Take a break and read or watch something else! Don’t let it become work.
I'm reading it for the first time and just finished Crown of Swords. I'm afraid if I decide to take a break I will never get back to it. Eventually enough time will pass, that I won't remember well enough and feel like I should reread the first books.
Brought to you by the letter S. 😆
6 books in nine years. George RR Martin, 5 books in twenty four years. Fun fact - during the end of the slog era, 2001 or so, I saw a website bashing Jordan, and telling people to read George RR Martin instead, because he actually writes books at a decent pace, unlike Jordan who was "clearly" slowing down.
That is exactly how I ended up reading Song of Ice and Fire
"Stop reading this brilliant author and instead read from his friend who ripped off half his ideas and writes at 1/5 of the pace! I assure you it will be SO MUCH MORE EPIC!"
-Anonymous "Fan"
@@derekhunter5040 What did he rip off?
@@Gunleaver RAFO, mate
@@derekhunter5040 No, I seriously want to know. I have read all 14.5 WoT novels, the Big White Book, the Companion, all 5 aSoI&F novels, all 3 Dunk & Egg stories, Fire & Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. I would like to know which things were ripped off. I am not challenging or denying or doubting it, I just want to see your take on this.
Liked the wink toward George RR Martin, Vancey Pants😂
I mean.. #WheelOfTime fans ARE very fortunate, at least our series is finished.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand aren’t we. I tortured myself reading through the song of ice and fire. Martin has the attention span of a toddler.
I‘ll see you at the inn
I just finished crossroads of twilight, and for how much people were complaining about, books 8, 9, and 10 was rather enjoyable.
Right?! It all goes back to having to wait on publication imo.
Apart from Perrin's parts I did not feel those books as a slog. I just finished the last book at the early summer so I am a new reader without all that existential burden you mentioned.
I'd go even so far as to appoint the "slog-books" one of my favorites of the whole series!
After finishing book #14 I read some Sanderson and last week picked up The New Spring which I was saving for the rainy day and oh forgotten gods how I had missed the pacing of Jordan! I'm all in if author wants to describe costume for two pages and then the surrounding scene for another two. Tolkien and Jordan are my jam for sure.
What DID feel slog for me was Aiel Waste parts of the early books. I was actually close to dropping the whole series because I just wanted to get away from that damn desert!
I think my issue is with Aiel culture and how OP it is. How can people with sticks and leather buckler's be that over powered against cultures with steel swords and much heavier armor? And without magic, no one could realistically hide as well as Aiel did. That broke immersion for me and took away from believably. And try as I may, I couldn't picture them as cool or anything but I am eager to see how the show will depict them. Also eager to see how I feel about them on my reread once I do it.
Wow that's a hot take as many folks love the Aiel Waste sections!
I agree about the Aiel being kind of OP but there are plenty of historical cultures similar to the Aiel that were quite successful, if not to the same degree. I think their real inspiration is the Fremen, but it's not perfect as the Fremen were taught the Weirding Way.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand Yeah, I have noticed I'm quite alone with my opinion here :D
I am unsure what historic cultures they are closest to that has been successful against cultures that are closest to those others in WOT that are heavily armored.
Guerrilla warfare, tactics and over powering with numbers could tip the scale but nothing explains how so inferior gear could beat much more advanced armies. Sure, they might be superior in dueling against similarly equipped wetlander tho.
I've been practicing HEMA so it is my curse to take notice of these things :D
@@WMfin Fair point.
I would counter that most of the armies of the Wetlands are as heavily armored as you might think. Yes they have breast plate but not every nation employs full plate knights or heavy cavalry. And remember while they might look similar at distance upon close inspection the nations of the Wetlands are not 1:1 the same level of tech as any Late Renaissance/Early Modern entities from our Age.
But of course I am at a disadvantage on the specifics of HEMA and might have incorrect assumptions.
Thanks for commenting so thoughtfully. It's quite to discuss and the reason I started my channel!
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand WOT discussion is something I could do all day! ^^
My understanding of armor does still lack. We practiced with different weapons but had modern protective gear on. However, the evolution of weapons and armor goes hand in hand: oh shit, that kind of sword is commonly used now, let's change our armor like this and that. And another goes: oh shit, they are protected better, maybe if I counter that with this and that modification to my sword and so on..
So I'm trying to picture the armor of those armies in accordance to the weaponry used in the books. Was RJ aware of these things I don't know but that's where my mind goes..
Now, armies that have developed to fight with and against gear shown in books suddenly face Aiel with unorthodox combination of weapons and armor and fighting style. Well, there were Aiel War, from which they could have learned to counter their style but maybe it is so different to them that it prevails?
I'm still having trouble seeing how it could be THAT much better.
Also, spear is awesome weapon and you can find multiple videos where spear user washes the floor with sword fighter. However, Aiel spears are rather short one handed spears, wore on their backs so I am more unfamiliar with them.
I did find this video which actually alleviates some of my concerns and arguments. Those thrusts are brutal! But still, if an army is using longswords, they'd most probably be wearing armor of same "level" of technology so my mind goes somewhere 1400 century..
th-cam.com/video/ehH6McZ0wB8/w-d-xo.html
I personally didn't feel the slog (maybe a bit in Crossroads tho) because I just read the books so fast haha. I'm due for a re-read this year, I'll pay more attention to the slog to see if it is as horrendous as some people claim it is!
Love this video and totally agree! I read Eye of the World in 2014 and had already bought a copy of the entire series before starting so I didn't even have to wait to go to the store between starting the next book. Reading through I never felt like there was a slog and my only frustration was SPOILER
How long it took for Perrin to finally save Faile! Good grief! That plot took several books AND in the end was apparently just like 52 days (number of knots he tied on this leather strap) LOL And I'm only upset about that because I loved Perrin so much and didn't really care about Faile... so I think on a reread I won't have the expectation of that resolving any time soon and won't be so bothered :)
Thanks for the comment! I agree that whole story arc is a little long. I love where it ends, but it takes its sweet time.
I got to binge the audiobooks up to knife of dreams so I didn’t have a problem with it
And that’s a valid method of getting through for any readers who struggle with the density and repetition!
I've listened to 7 books in a couple of weeks. I can't follow any character names unless mentioned repeatedly. It turns out you don't really have to... The story is still comprehensible without memorizing every name.
10000%
I’ve always felt that Crossroads of Twilight(which is the red headed step child of the series…wait does that make it Rand?) and Knife of Dreams were intended as one epic book like Shadow Rising/Fires of Heaven/Lord of Chaos but TOR needed a book out for their publishing schedule and Jordan was overdue so he published what he had ready. If it had been one book I don’t think we would look at this period as the slog. Path of Daggers wasn’t as epic as the rest of the series imho but it was satisfactory, Winter’s Heart was a bit slow but with an epic finale, and the combination of CoT and KoD I think would have been a great start to the endgame of the series.
I can definitely see that. That would've made CoT/KoD the longest book at the time and tracks with Jordan's philosophy on AMoL originally being a single 1800-2500 page tome.
The Aes Sedai names that start with S part LLOL!
All I know is that I considered Path of Daggers to be Strike 1, Crossroads of Jack Shit to be Strike 2, and the announcement of the expansion and rerelease of New Spring to be Strike 3, and I was out. I am only now getting back to it this year. I sped through my reread of the first five relatively quickly for me, but Lord of Chaos is wearing me down a bit.
Totally valid! Personally I think LoC is the precursor to the pacing shift for every book after it.
I just finished Crossroads of Twilight and 🥴. Just kidding. It wasn’t that bad. Yes, the plot didn’t move forward. Yes, there wasn’t much progress. The ending left you feeling like “that’s it?”. But, Robert toned down some of the brain pulling skirt straightening indignation crap a ton. And honestly, there are so many little stories happening that he had to spend time in each so when progress does happen it feels earned. I thought I was going to hate crossroads but it was ok. I wouldnt say it was good, but it was ok and will probably make the rest of the books more impactful.
I subbed. Not gonna lie, guitars are confusing me hahaha. I kept waiting for it to suddenly be a music channel. Fine by me, I play guitar as well.
Lol it’s mostly imagery for this channel, though I did put up a little solo guitar video of Weep for Manetheren from the show.
Yes Crossroads isn’t as bad as often claimed, but it’s certainly not “good.” It was a failed experiment on RJ’s part and he owned that failure.
One could only wish George R.R. Martin could write at a fraction of the pace set by Jordan 😫😫😫
Right?
I've read the books last year, all 14 in rapid succession, and books 8 through 10 feel a little bit boring sometimes. But it isn't half as bad as people say.
The idea of the slog is worse that the real thing.
For me any chapter that doesn't have Bela in it is part of The Slog.
You’ve nailed it.
Counterpoint: I started reading The Wheel Of Time in my teens while on an "I'll read anything if it's Fantasy™" phase (I'm now 47). I reached "the slog", and came to the conclusion that Jordan was milking the fuck out of it and stopped reading. I've never attempted to restart the series - because of the slog. So to me it absolutely is A Thing™ because it's why he lost my readership.
Recontextualising it as "in the past" won't change my opinion that it's self-indulgent, unnecessarily bloated and a Waste Of Time™.
Oh, and could Nynaeve stop tugging her fucking braid in *every* scene she's in please, I got that part of her "character" in the first damn book.
Books 8 and 10 are the slog for me.
Book 6 is slower paced but has one of the best third act's of the series.
Book 7 is also slower paced than past books but has some of the best character development in Rand, Mat and Nynaeve throughout and has some thrilling action segments
Book 9 has similar issues as book 6 (slower pace, but with an epic ending)
Books 8 and 10 however are beyond slower in pace and just put the over arching storyline on pause imo
Thanks for commenting! Yours is one of the popular interpretations for the slog and I definitely think it has some solid points behind. For me I found books 6-8 quite slow, book 9 is underrated IMO, and 10 is so short that it didn’t bug me.
Although I agree with the excellent arguments made in the video, I disagree with the premise that the slog was not real. The issue also, I believe, is that after Lord of Chaos, the books became more serialized and less self-contained. There was not so much of a rising and falling plot structure in each book, with battle at the end. Lord of Chaos was less climactic, but there was Dumai's Wells, even if Mat, Egwene & Nynaeve/Elayne all just kind of petered out with no win at the end, and so much was still unresolved with Perrin & Faile and Rand's political issues and the Sammael plan being much discussed and never carried out.
Then the "slog" hits, and while there are multiple storylines in each book, no more than one ends in a big action climax (Rand in 7, Mat in 9, Egwene in 10), while the others have cliffhangers or set up future developments without resolving anything. Path of Daggers throws even that structure out the window, with the action tending more to the beginning of the book, and even the action at the end is unresolved or a setup for future plots. There's little action in most of the plots in Winter's Heart and what seems like low stakes until the Cleansing hits, and Egwene is mostly absent & her story moves backward chronologically. Even Mat's plot, with the dramatic climax, is more simmering tension than physical conflict. Crossroads of Twilight is infamously hated (although I always answer CoT to polls about favorite WoT books just to mess with the results), because it's mostly setup. Rand is hardly in it, Perrin looks at the enemy base and goes grain shopping. Mat goes on a first date. Elayne takes a bath and has a prenatal checkup, and Egwene talks to a lot more people before a quick action sequence and then another cliffhanger.
To fans looking for the obvious gratification of the early books, 7-10 represented a let down and a failure of action and excitement. The characters' meteoric leveling up seemed to abruptly stop as they began encountering frustrations and limitations and having to do a lot more to gain less. But the interiority of their development was still going on, the worldbuilding increased, not just in revelations or descriptions of the setting, but the way it all worked together being illustrated as well. This was all necessary setup for the end. People think book 11 was finally good, but it was really just the wrap-up of stories that began in the prior four books. We don't get the satisfaction of Faile's rescue, Mat's military victories, Elayne claiming the crown or Egwene showing her stuff in the Tower, without all the development and set up coming from before. Rand's own sufferings don't hit as hard without the descent of the prior books making his injury seeming the crowing horror, instead of just a relatively minor one in the grand scheme of things. Even little moments, like Galad's duel or the revelation of Moiraine's letter, only land because of what was established in the prior books.
There IS a slog, but it has to do with the series evolving, and fan perceptions staying in the same place. It slogged for people who were only looking at the movements of the characters and ignoring their interiority and development and the expansion of the series. Wheel of Time grew and became more, and lots of fans thought they wanted it to stay what they initially enjoyed. Some casual fans who were never in it for more than that wanted it to stay that way. But that's the difference between an epic fantasy series and a collection of pulp pastiches. If they got what they thought they wanted, Wheel of Time would largely be forgotten as anything more than a disposable fantasy story with little meaning, that you didn't much care about after it was over.
Yes this!! While reading it I started comparing it to how brandon sanderson structures his stormlight books. The wheel of time books definitely need to be grouped into different story chunks so readers are only really satisfied after completing each “chunk” rather than each book. SA is written such that all the POVs have an arc which converges into a massive climax, that way each book is somewhat self-contained. Nothing particular right or wrong with either, just interesting to compare.
@@aliaibrahim4517 I never read anything of Sanderson, because his writing style & voice is not my thing. I tried to get into Mistborn when he was announced as the writer to complete WoT, but despite things I liked, such as the action choreography & creative uses of magic, the characters and dialogue fell flat for me.
"The wheel of time books definitely need to be grouped into different story chunks so readers are only really satisfied after completing each “chunk” rather than each book."
If you are saying that's how plot focused readers should look at the series, I agree. If you mean the books should be written differently, not at all. That was one of Sanderson's biggest mistakes with his approach to dividing what Jordan intended to be a single novel, into three. There is always a thematic unity to even the serialized books in Jordan's WoT, that is absent in Sanderson's. He totally undercut ToM in order to gratify fans who demanded an obvious resolution and "win" in Gathering Storm.
In LoC, there is the theme of inversion, of the powerful brought low and the lowly raised up, and of false leaders and empty triumphs, while real successes get overlooked.
In aCoS, the theme concerns the price of power and the dangers of proximity to power, with characters not having to pay to get power, but rather suddenly learning that the power they have comes with a price it's too late to avoid.
In tPoD, the theme is the dangers of leadership and how fraught the choices are when one has a great deal of power, how even simple missteps can have bloody consequences.
In WH, things are at a nadir, regardless of where people are in their assorted plotlines. Mat is near the end of his Ebou Dar plot, Elayne is setting up her fight for the throne and Perrin has just begun his search for Faile, but they are all at a low point. Breaking these into separate books, loses that. The whole point of Rand doing the Cleansing is that it represents a new beginning.
CoT is a book of transitions, showing in different ways how the world is changing and deteriorating as the Pattern circles the drain. Separating Perrin's discovery of vermin in So Harbor, from Mat's encounter with the ghosts, from Egwene's observations of rotting food and Elayne's dealing with arson, makes each of those things a minor incident, rather than a pattern of doom.
Sanderson does not seem to have grasped that, and thought it just fine to put Rand and Egwene in a different book from Mat, Perrin and Elayne, just because those characters never meet during the time period covered by both.
Some one should cut out all the repetition and see what it would be like if Robert Jordan had an editor.
What slog. Well done
Thank you 🙏
I have to heartily disagree. While I do think the lack of quality of books 8-10 might be overstated I notice that there is a fair bit of apologia coming from the fandom now that these books weren't so bad. I dropped the series some 20 years ago when PoD first came out, and finally got back around to power through. These books are badly paced. Flat out. There are great scenes in all three of them, but there is often entire chapters that could be excised and you wouldn't even lose much worldbuilding, or at best they could be chopped down and combined.
The worst of the lot is Crossroads of Twilight. That is an awful book. Not just a bad Wheel of Time book, but honestly a bad book overall. It does have a couple of great chapters, Jordan is still a good writer... but it is the book where all of his worst qualities are on display to excess. I have never seen a fantasy book where so little happens that the important bits of what DOES happen could have been a prologue to the next book, or an epilogue to the previous one. Structurally it is the worst but all three of these books needed to be chopped up and combined, into one... MAAAYBE 2 books.
I agree! "The Slog" isn't real! :b
Hey Rainbow! Glad you stopped by to check out my little essay (sic. rant) here.
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand I love finding videos on why people I know should read the Wheel of Time so I can send it to them and be like: HERE! This!
I know I found it a slog because the last time I tried to re-read the books, I gave up around book 4 or 5. I am beginning a re-read now, and with them all released, I plan to power through, but there may be some parts that I skip or skim through knowing that certain details don't end up being important.
I'm glad you are giving it another shot!
@@TheBardOfTheRedHand It may take me a while, but maybe I will be finished by the time the show comes out (whenever that is).
The slog, nah it'll be fine.
See, you get it.
I couldn't get past the annoying braid tugging and skirt smoothing type descriptives. The characters all have their own little way of irritating me. Maybe it gets better later? I want to find a way to like this series but maybe it's just not for me.
Hey that’s totally fine. Maybe the show will be a better format for you! That’s how it was with GoT/ASoIAF for me.