My wife and I have been catamaran shopping for a number of months and have, of course, watched a lot of videos. This one is one of the most useful I've seen. Thank you!
I’m still a big fan of the Mumby 48 ever since I learned about Jupiter a few years ago! A durable, performance, cruising Aluminum Catamaran that still moves despite light winds just makes sense to me. My dream version of it would be to incorporate the Hybrid setup and other upgrades that the Wynns put into their new Curiosity catamaran.
I own the SMG50 plus performance catamaran. Similar to the Chris white design, and has all the above traits of true blue water performance cat, stiffness, clearance, speed, comfort, movement, sail management, IMO a perfect compromise.
Great video guys. We lived aboard our 52 foot Crowther Anui and cruised for 14 years she’s still blasting around leaving other boats for dead at 20 years old and we about to start building a Schionning Arrow 1360 next year to sail off for our retirement. Check Schionning out as another great performance design.
Thanks Scott. Yes, Crowther designed a lot of good boats. Especially at times, where cats where mostly designed bad, his designs where very special. Our list of other designs is just what it is - very personal. Everybody will find his own performance cruising cat. We wanted just to show how to look in a different direction. You cannot imagine, how many of these chartermarans are here in the Caribbean used as a live aboard boat - motoring up and down the island chain- and if you ask them, they find this very comfortable. Good luck with your boat building 😉🥂
You have just popped up in our feed - WOW ! GREAT STUFF Tali and Guenther - we really enjoyed the video, and agree with your view about performance cruising. 13:29 picture vs 1000 words. Looking forwards to the boat tour of your Looping. The Atlantic looks very slippery and well thought out. Jamie & Princess' Cyber/Mumby 48 Jupiter² was very unusual and very interesting too. We have a couple of fantastic new sailing channels to follow - Umadum Sailing, Life on Jupiter. Good times and lots of binge watching ahead ! Cheers, Gavin & Amanda
don't mind me friends...i am "window day-dreaming" about sailing and exploring. thankyou for educating us and taking us along, someday i meet rich woman and we go sailing, and i will enjoy the 7 Seas; just as soon as i finish washing the dishes, and cooking, and doing laundry, and tacking. 😁🖐
lol why are all you old generation folk so absolutely triggered by these what you call 'expensive floating condo's?' opinions and attitudes like that just show me that you and what you believe are irrelevant and redundant
Thanks for this. Very informative. Had not heard of two of them. Still sailing my monohull, which I have had fir over 20 years. Started to think about a cat for the future.
Just watched your video-- you raise the issues well-the only one missing was the issue of daggerboards which I'm a keen fan of. The other designer to add to your list is Mark Pescott. He is an Australian designer influenced by Crowther but his boats are wonderful to sail--I built a 11.7 and it sailed wonderfully and had all the space we needed. There aren't many of his boats for sale but they have the reputation of 'being the cat to beat'.
Hi Phil. I love Mark Pescots boats. Saw some of them in Thailand, including his own one. I am not sure, that they are what we call cruising boats. Seemed to me more a coastal cruiser. Help me, if I am not right!
I have mixed feelings with daggerboards, 50:50. The Looping is sailing close to the wind very well, we make 90 deg through a tack. But we are lazy sailors. Not to operate one more thing is not bad.
@@UmadumSailing No they're perfectly capable of crossing oceans. I took mine out in 35-40 knots and 5-6m seas on the nose and it was clear she could handle more than I could. Off the coast of Sydney--you are in pretty wild seas a lot of the time-it is so your boat has to be able to handle it. Mine was 11.9m and I had 500l of water on board, however, we lost about 2 knots of boat speed going upwind, from 10 to 8 knots when fully loaded up with live aboard gear. There is a 13.5m one that has sailed extensively around the Pacific and Asia--there's a video on my channel of us going upwind in 40 knots offshore--can't say it was very comfortable but we were on a deadline. P
@@UmadumSailing I like the options that daggerboards give you and of course the performance. However, I am aware that the Loopings seem to go to windward like a train with mini keels
The guy that had Segue built was an Englishman called Malcolm.. I have pictures of us all out dinner a whole tribe of people in Nose Be. Will see if I have the pictures. There was also Rutahrdt a german guy on El Gecco another cat a Swonning I think.
A lot of new cruisers seem to think that if you could go faster why wouldn't you? I'm afraid it's not that simple, in the sailing world everything is a compromise, you can't just get something for nothing. Comfort or speed both come at a cost, if all you want is to get as fast as possible from point a to point b than you definitely should look for that Performance cat. Heck, Get a power Cat! But you should understand REALLY well what the trade-off is before you make a decision. Specially if you're new at this. Here's a couple reasons I we chose a cruising boat for our family. 1. I'm not in a hurry, and even my carbon fiber hull friends only get there a couple hours before we do here in the Caribbean. You would be surprised how fast a cruising boat can be if you know how/when to trim properly or if you have a couple of Performance sails. 2. Most cruisers spend 90% of their time at anchor, why wouldn't you prioritize comfort and space? That's like buying a Ferrari to commute to work because you can still take it to the track once a month. 3. Performance boats can sail quick in light breeze but their light weight makes it much more uncomfortable in higher winds and heavier seas, a 15+ ton cruising cat will sail in heavy winds and seas all day and not fatigue the crew as much. All I can say is, do your homework. 😊
Ok. But the issue is not to be on the next anchorage an hour earlier. In light winds it is sometimes the question if you can sail or you have to use the engines. On our south atlantic crossing from Africa to Brazil we had for days 35 knots of wind and heavy cross waves - and it was comfortable on our boat -look at our video, we were nicely cooking every day. And we had many days with nearly no wind. With the big spinnaker we sailed very slow, but, we could sail. Imagine to run the engine(s) for days and days, thats boaring, loud, stinky. How many liters of diesel you have to carry with you. And this amount of weight again makes your boat a ton heavier so you cannot sail in extremely light winds. All 3 performance cats we featured in this film are very comfortable, have a lot of space, but are designed clever for low weight. You cannot say, that light cats are uncomfortable in strong winds. If they are designed well, they are even more comfortable than heavy ones. On our boat we feel very comfortable even in high winds, because of the easy motions of the boat in high waves. Again: look at our 2 South Atlantik crossing films. And again:its not the question if you arrive 2 hours earlier on the next anchorage - even its nice tobe able to do that…
I just don't get it when people say "We don't care about having a fast boat" You can always make a fast boat slower if you want to, but you'll never make a slow one faster. I personally want some of those modcons and niceties that make a boat heavier, like a nice big battery bank to power my refrigerators and freezers, television, computer, etc... even some of the "floating apartment" things like doors on cabinets and walls that don't feel like a bathroom shower stall. But you can get those things without making your boat a pig, and can still get the higher performance with cats like the Balance and HH, or go a bit heavier and get a seawind. I don't think I would ever want to have a xquisite, or privilege, or antares, despite how nice they are on the inside. They're just too heavy and slow. But I could definitely see myself in a seawind 1260, 1370 or 1600 that are a bit heavier, but can still hit 20+ and give that thrill of "real sailing" That being said, I generally look at it like this; If it takes a 25 ton boat to get someone out there on the water, sailing and enjoying it, then it doesn't bother me. As long as they invite me over for a drink when they finally arrive at the anchorage :)
True, you can slow down if you want. We do this sometimes on crossings, sometimes we go full speed. Just as our feelings are on this day. That a heavy seawind will make 20 knots, is only what some YT channels are telling you. Even if the put a diagram into the camera doesn’t mean its happening in real live. Not even with an empty boat and for sure not with a loaded cruising boat. Stop dreaming, there is physics...
@@UmadumSailing There is also video evidence of it. Maybe not the 1260 (the lightest of the three I mentioned) and of course the 1370 hasn't splashed yet so we will have to wait on that one, but the 1600 has most certainly done more than 20 knots. I've seen video of one (can't remember if it was a Balance, HH, maybe a TS) doing 26 or 27 in 22 knots true and only having a D/L slightly better than a seawind 1600. Displacement is only one number. You could strip down a lagoon to get a good D/L ratio and it would still be slow. You could then increase your sail area to get a better SA/D ratio and it would still be slow. This is because the hullform isn't designed for performance on a lagoon. They have fat, inefficient hulls. As for a heavier boat being able to hit 20+, that is primarily because the hulls on these newer boats are much better designed with greater understanding of hydrodynamic forces. And that is happening because of these condomarans being so popular. There's a lot of money to be made in catamarans, which has driven further r&d and pushed the designs forward. The advent and accessibility of CFD hasn't hurt either, lol. And of course, we're not even mentioning that the lighter your boat is, the more sensitive it is to weight. A 7 ton boat is definitely going to be fast, but you gotta make damn sure you don't overload her (are you weighing your provisioning before leafing, or emptying your tanks?) There's a certain advantage to having a heavier boat in that respect. If your in laws come aboard for a trip and bring half their possessions, it's not going to impact the boat as much. In the end, the era of super light cruising cats that you don't have to build in your backyard is over. Just like with cars, International regulations have stepped in and demand certain things that are just going to make the bare hull heavier to start with. While you *may* be able to find one of these older designs for sale on the used market and pay through the nose (I've seen 15 year old chris whites like in this video listing for almost $2m), or track down the plans and build it yourself, finding something comparable to these three, in good condition is not an easy proposal.
Will they do this with full water and fuel tanks, spare parts, tools, full cruising battery banks and and and. If you start with a light boat and you add all this extra weight for cruising, you still end up with a light boat. If you add 2-3 tons for cruising on a heavy empty cat you will end up with a very heavy cruising cat. Listen to owners who had this problem and not to YT videos for Promotion...😉
Nicely stated...I will gladly invite you for a drink and bbq on my new Privilege. BTW...there are times in bad seas where the heavier cat is much safer than a matchstick... 🙂
@@UmadumSailing Actually, cats are very easy to overload, so if you add 2-3 tons (very easy to do with 2 people) to a 7 ton boat, you end up with a 9 or 10 ton, overloaded cat that used to be light and fast, but now has sunken down below her DWL. You've increased the boats weight by nearly 50%! Like I said, are you emptying your water tanks before you set sail? Are you giving up the security of having the tools and spares you need to fix your boat in the middle of a passage when something goes wrong? Not out of a desire to go faster, but out of a desire to keep from going slower and more dangerously? You talk about safety and how light boats are much safer because they are faster, but a heavy boat that isn't overloaded is SIGNIFICANTLY safer than a light boat that is sunken down below her DWL. You are worshiping a single number that tells you maybe 5% of the story. There have been plenty of light cats that were dogs in the water, and there are plenty of what you consider heavy boats that can do 200+ mile days with ease. This isn't marketing b.s. it's science, backed up by real world examples. The statistically fastest and most stable boat of the three in the video is the heaviest one, and it is statistically slower and less stable than boats of the same length that are heavier. Before you start telling people which boat to buy, you should maybe actually understand the engineering behind them. In just the last couple of years there is a new displacement hull form that given identical numbers, is 20-30% more efficient than what was state of the art just 5 years ago. These 20 year old hulls that are basically identical to the hulls used 40 or 50 years ago are just not a valid comparison. As for your "listen to owners" comment, I just recently criticized the decision of someone who owned a MUCH lighter cat than you do (therefore, by your logic, MUCH better) who said their next cat would be a 25 ton, 50 foot Xquisite X5 (after crossing the atlantic in one) because it was so much more comfortable and so much safer. I told them that there is a much better compromise between 6 tons and 25 tons in roughly the same LWL where you can have those modcons without giving up too much performance. There are plenty of owners out there who will say you're crazy, plenty of owners out there who will say "who cares" and plenty of owners out there who won't even bother listening to the question in the first place. Give me an opinion and I will show you pages of people who agree with it. At the end of the day if you want to sit there looking at the FPs, privileges, exquisites and Lagoons (arguably the statistically fatest, slowest cats out there, not to mention ugliest, imo) thinking about what a horrible decision that person made and how terrible things are for them, and feeling superior, that's fine, feel free to, it's your time and energy. Meanwhile those people you are obsessing over are sitting on their fat, heavy, dogs thinking "Man, there is nowhere I would rather be than right here, right now". You're doing something amazing, seeing the world and getting to do it on one of the most efficient types of vehicle possible, one powered by the wind itself. You are doing something that represents the very core of human exploration. Why does it matter if someone else next to you at anchor chose a different boat?
Hey guys! Love this video and the Atlantic 44 happens to be one of our favorites too. It is good to get a different perspective and while we own a Bali 5.4 ourselves and love the boat and it's performance, we absolutely understand the value of a faster lower profile catamaran in the rougher seas where we come from in South Africa. We get to sail on many different cats all the time and I think you made a good choice here in the performance category, although I have to say that we have a soft spot for Catana also.
Dear Tali and dear Günther, informative and good video. Your Cat is actually a cozy and quick one. I was able to test it on board for 6 weeks. Be glad you don't have a floating caravan! Kind regards, Clark
Looking forward to your full boat tour. Wish you could have given us interior walkthoughs of the others too. Do you know if these other builders are typically represented at the multihull show at La Grande Motte?
They are for sure not on boatshows, there you will find only mass production boats with big budgets for advertising. They have to earn this money.building lesser quality or selling a lot of boats for too high prices or selling whole series to charter companies to very low prices, and this again makes the quality go down. This is a special market, you have to look for yourself and have to investigate - but maybe this is the fun thing to do? A lot of people are asking about our boat. Nearly nobody has ever heard about a Looping, but people, who have investigated for performance cats all seems to know them.
I enjoyed your video, and the real sea dog assessment! I think perhaps you are not so far away from the type of choices Ruby Rose made in settling on a Seawind 1370, and they had fun on a Dazcat whilst looking. As someone who is more of an old hot dog than a sea dog, I like the choices made in the Broadblue Rapier 550, where all the rigging comes down inside the cabin although you can do things from outside if you want, you have no actual need to go outside in inclement conditions. When its fine you can go outside and helm and control sails there, when it ain't, you stay inside!
The seaiwnd is a very heavy boat. The Dazcat is a real racer. Nice boat. The Looping is my 3rd cat in this 25 years of cruising. You get a lot of experience sailing this many tourend miles...
@@UmadumSailing 'The seaiwnd is a very heavy boat.' ? I think you may be thinking of a different boat. It is not an out and out performance boat, but 'very heavy' is certainly not accurate. Here are the specs: www.seawindcats.com/seawind-1370/ 11 tons for 45 feet and a fixed keel put it out of the performance boat category, but hardly make it a Lagoon.
I don’t know what you mean with not very heavy, our 45 foot cat weights 5,3 tons, so the sea wind is more than double. For me, this is too heavy. Sailing in light wind conditions instead of using the engine... it’s just normal physics, more weight and you need more power. No sailing in winds of 5-10 knots
The Seawinds are definitely not fast or performance cats! Compared to Lagoons et al, they do sail better, but they are heavy and without daggerboards sail poorly upwind. In a 2-3 hour race, we would beat them by an hour in harbour races--this was a 40' Pescott bridgedeck cat against Seawind 1250s and 1000s.
Cats are great at anchorage, coastal and caribian sailing, even for atlantic or southern passage but I would not sail them at drake passage or tasmanian sea nearby. Neither Arctic rolling 50´s to the Antartica. I think there has been shortage between pricerange 200-300k as second hand cats for long period of time but that is quickly chancing because charter companies generally change inventory every 5 years. Fountain Pajot alone has sold 900 units 45 feet model over the passed 10 years while cats become more popular cruising homes over the passed 5 years. Caribian territory all the way to panama is full of cats available in few years time when charter companies receives new models (with eEngines). One reason for secondhand shortage has been also hurricane irma because it destroyed huge number of cats & loaded insurance claims backlog orders for factories. Some catamaran factories have 3 years que to get your own for this reason. Cor19 boosted a lot of new yacht sales also in europe and US.
Cats and cats are different, what you say it’s true for all the charter brands. I would not mind to go to the regions you mention with a good designed cat. But: it’s the same with monos. I would not go there with a bad mono too.
Yes, looks like. I was looking for a 46 some years ago, this was in this price range. But I heard, in America you make an offer far away from the asking price, don’t know if it works...
Very intersting video. Thank you. Was looking at Lagoon - now not so sure. But - I am 6'6 (200 cm) tall. Will that be possible an any of the performance cruicers you have looked at? finding reliable data on standing headroom is a pain.
Just excellent! This clip was a "must" when you look on the market and how the philosophy and pleaseure of multihull sailing goes the wrong way. All the best from Greece.... Catamaran Freydies 46/49 "Maji"
@@UmadumSailing Ich bin seit gestern bei Euch dabei. Besser bei Euch dabei als bei einer riesigen Katgemeinde die "Party island's" (Oil rig's) verherlichen. Da werden meine Kommentare zu bissig. Werd mich bei Euch aktiv beteiligen, gibt einiges zu berichten aus meinen 30 Jahren Kat segeln.
Great video, but some of the comments made are a little unfair. We tarvel up and down the windward islands and very rarely have to motor. Our Lagoon 42 will sail at around half the true windspeed, so we have great sailing between the islands. We also crossed the Atlantic in her, with lots of other lagoons and FP's, so to say these boats never leave the marina is totally untrue. Admittedly, we keep her light .. no Aircon, washing machine, large generator etc.
We didn’t say, it’s impossible to sail a condomaran, what we wanted to show, it’s a just big difference. Especially in light winds. I don’t think, this is unfair. Lagoons, fountain Pajots and so on are heavily advertised, performance cats are not. Let’s show - especially to future cruisers - that there are other concepts out there.
Thanks guys for the insights! We are looking down the road to go on a bit of trip with our 2 kids. Outremer and Catana are for the moment on the shortlist. I see in your recommendation that you specify the old Outremer. Would you be able to elaborate?
The old one looks nicer to me, just joking... The old ones are much more light, heavier boats are not performing as good as light ones. Danson was very specific about weight. There where different Outremers, small house and bigger house. He increased the sail area for the big house version. That tells you, how much the extra weight Is doing to the performance. For me, performance doesnot mean top speed, this is nice for talks at the beer bar. But you deal very often with light winds. And here performance is very important. You are going with sails at good speed or you are motoring. Burn diesel. Which you have to carry. And this is more weight again.
Adrew van Zyl? Maar dis mos AFRIKAANS!. Nice boats. I'm looking 4 those with wins that go 1/2 above the water. I understand that go really very vast 2. (80 na 100km/u) Thx 4 the video.
Schionning and Oram cats are pretty good performance cats, some are built by pro's, most by homebuilders, but homebuilders doesn't equal inferior quality. Most homebuilders of Schionnings do a better job than shipyards imho.
Really rare sort of video. Thx. My question....u are all riding behemots from 45 to 60ft. What do u think about smaller performance cats like schionning 1030,or 1050? Really love the galley down. Cockpit is a bit on a smaller size but it seems like a nice design,capable of double digit sailing and bridge deck clearance seems big. Are they used by a long range sailors? How do u think they would do on open waters? Never cared for lagoons or fp kind of cats, but i'am a monohull sailor so i dont know much about cat sailing. I have a smaller amel alisio,31 ft year 1968 and sail adriatics,do i have been in all kind of weathers.
Thanks Klemmen! If well designed, you can sail every size of cats offshore, no problem here. I would rather sail offshore with a 12m good designed cat than on a 15m Bad designed one. Certainly a longer boat can be more comfortable, but where is the end of this. In the seventies a proper sized boat for sailing around the world was 8-10 meters, if you look now, they all are in the 13-15m range. I personally am not a fan of Schioning cats, I have seen too many with big issues. But maybe that was just a problem of the builders, I don’t know. They are very light, but if they are strong, I cannot really say.
Thank you David. We just filmed one other performance catamaran, as soon as the work on the shipyard allows, there will be a 4th performance cruising cat film 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Check out Maine Cat for long distance cruising. I've helped on several deliveries from Maine to Hopetown and find them to be very comfortable and fast as well. Nice high bridgedeck vs chartercats means no slamming wave tops. Great floorplan as well
Why do you mention "older" outremers and not the current ones ? If I run the performance numbers(SA/D , Bruce) the current 4X , 5X and 55 look quite good. The 51 is OK , and the 45 is not so thrilling but still way better than any charter . DazCat is mentionned but you left out Marsaudon Composites with their TS42 (2019 winner of Rolex Fastnet multihull beating a DazCat 1495) and at 5.8 tons for a 42 footer quite light) They also build the TS5 , a 50 footer at 8.6 ton but you can get that down to 7.6 with a lot of carbon . This one wone the 2019 ARC rally with 4 60plus boomers on board beating a Volvo racing monohull !
It’s just a personal list of cats I like. The Danson designed cats where just built with a big eye on weight. For sure there are more good cats out there. Good, if you mention them. Our personal view was centered at affordable boats too...
@@UmadumSailing The TS5 and TS42 are definitely a lot cheaper than DazCat equivalent (nearly half the price) BTW , Marsaudon Composites have now launched a new brand called Ocean Riding Catamarans and they now sell the TS5 as the ORC50 and the TS42 as the ORC42 . Better still , they also announced the brand new ORC57 (only 11.3 tons !) which will arrive in 2021 (price 1.085 mil euro ex vat). The performance numbers on that one are just amazing . SA/D of over 39 and a Bruce number of 1.56 . The only cats that do a bit better are the unobtainable Gunboat68 and the equally extremely pricey DazCat1895 . Yes , the Rapido tris have also better numbers but way less living space .
The list of new performance catamarans is getting longer every month - but we where talking about affordable boats. If you can spend a million dollars for a good boat you have a lot of choice. Not many people can spend this amount of money
As a liveaboard you will know that most of the time is spent at Anchor, and then do you really want to drive your home at 20 ++ knots when safe and slowly still gets you to the destination in comfort
Yes, why you want to do that? But if you only stay at anchor, why all this expensive equipment? Mast, sails, winches, standing and running rigging? You easily can run home at engine too 😉
And: they sail much more comfortable. And it’s a big difference, even if you sail “only” in the Caribbean. You come to your next island relaxed and not exhausted
@@ApprenticeGM you obviously have not done much sailing on a large catamaran, to think you can constantly sail at 20 knots and still be comfortable in nonsense
@@venomguysydney Either you can't read, are a fool, or haven't sailed a large performance cat (which I have). 1) Wanting the ability to sail your cat at 20 knots in a 25 knot breeze, as opposed to 10 knots (which I regard as sluggish although others might find it fast eg compared to a mono), does not mean you can't be comfortable. 2) There are a lot of cats that can manage my stated level of performance - Outremers, Schionnings, Orams, Graingers, Dazcats, TS42's etc - and still provide excellent comfort. La Vagabond live a comfortable life, check out their videos sometime. 3) No-one is saying it's 20 knots constantly - that's a straw man argument raised by you - the issue is having a cat capable of that performance in the right wind and sea conditions. eg broad reaching in small seas. 4) Comparably, the sluggish charter cats like Lagoon, FP, Leopard etc, which have much wider hulls especially at the bow, are much heavier, and lack daggerboards, are just much slower, and on passages in particular, are not as safe as performance cats which can outrun or avoid bad weather systems. La Vaga's recent Atlantic crossing is an excellent example of the benefit the speed a faster performance cat provides from a safety perspective. 5) It sounds like you have tried to push a sluggard along quickly and been unimpressed with the lack of comfort from the motion. Well, no kidding, but educate yourself by sailing on a performance cat like one I listed for a few days in a range of weather conditions and you'll understand the motion at speed is actually quite pleasant - less hobby-horsing not more with better weight distribution and wave piercing bows (and even rudder foils on some Dazcats to stabilise). 6) I accept a sluggard cat at anchor is arguably more comfortable than a performance cat as the sluggard has more liveable volume and more weight, but not everyone needs compressors and SCUBA tanks for 8 people on board . . . by all means get a sluggard cat that more suits your needs, but don't spout nonsense like "you can't sail at 20 knots and be comfortable" for sailors that prefer performance cats.
great video however from my analysis there are 2 issues with performance catamarans that i do not like 1. thin hulls make it unstable in storms swinging wildly port to stbs and reverse - some old blog described nicely storm on Fredy 49. 2. it can be easier flipped by wind only. For boats in video, i estimate 100 kn gust will do it on anchor or mooring. Bit too low for my taste as we already experienced 80 kn gusts.
I think to flip it over it needs a tornado or a waterspout. But I never experienced 100 knots of wind. And we try to avoid being in hurricane zones anyway. Which does not work this year thanks to covid restrictions. Till now we where lucky here in Grenada, but if something strange comes, we go out at sea early enough and sail south out of the path
Thin hulls have nothing to do with swinging wildly--the advantage you have with a cat that can sail well--and by definition I mean one that can beat off a lee shore is that you have choices, you can sail fast or you can slow the boat down--our cat was incredibly stable surfing down big seas--we had a 12.5/1 hull beam length ratio and she is the boat I'd prefer to be in in a storm. At the same time, at 12 knots boat speed, we would still be cooking up bacon and eggs for the crew.
Look at our South Atlantic Crossing film: we even cooked full meals at 35 knots of wind and cross seas. You can see in this film how easy the motions of the cat have been That’s what we think is comfort. But other people think having 3+ toilets is comfort. And a saloon where you can dance... 😉🥂
I'm not sure where your info is coming from but none of it matches our experience on our 40' x24' 12/1 cruising cat. We have only experienced 95 kts sustained at anchor on a bridle with no swinging and because of bridgedeck design the gusts pushed us deeper in the water not lifting us. Capsize has a lot to do with beam and buoyancy. Long lean hulls have a lot of buoyancy when spaced far apart. Stretch a normal 32' cat to 40' and increase the beam to at least 20' retaining the rig of the 32 is the concept.
@@robertgeorge9909 depends of bridgedeck size and position. Large cat that was flipped in marina in NZ is what i am talking about. There are other cases of flipped cats at mooring or anchor. Privilege flipped in 150 kn on anchor. So, i believe lagoon in 150 kn. Exact data not available, however one can estimate flipping relative to other boats. Say if lagoon flips at 150 kn then cats like on this video should at 100 kn, give or take.
Welcome! They are not really comparable. Looping is 45, Atlantic 55, the Cyber is 48. The Looping is much lighter and has a much smaller sail area then the cyber. They where about the same speed. For sure a 55 boat is faster. Actually we did not racing, we just tried to hold them together for the drone shots. If you are interested in the cyber, I know the designer and the boats for many years, and believe me, they are fast. Just be careful not to overload them! But that’s the most important thing with all performance cats. Tim always said, he doesn’t put more than 80 liter of diesel on board. The people had the idea he is a bit crazy. Then 2 friends of mine built a Cyber, and guess what they learnt: if you put more diesel you will have use it in light wind conditions...
Why do they need to go fast? Because the can’t handle seas whipped up by storms. They are surely very tempting, but will it survive large seas should you not be able to outrun surprise storm.
Yes, they will! Much better than heavy boats, which are digging into the seas instead of floating on top like a piece of styrofoam. If you look at our South Atlantic crossing film, you will see how they behave. Ok, 35 knots of wind and 5 meters cross seas is no storm, but if you see the motions of this boat you might be able to imagine what it does at 50 knots. And if you look at the heavy cat in the film, you can imagine what this one does in 50 knots conditions...
Thanks! Danson weighted every Gramm of his boats. The 50 with bigger house got a larger sail area than the 50 light, the new ones don’t seem to watch the weight of the boats too much, and for me (personally) the old ones looked much more sexy...😉🎥⛵️🥂
Hi, love your videos, very informative. As a future cruiser looking to purchase our next catamaran, may I ask if you are aware of the Malcolm Tennant Pacific 40 catamaran from circa 1993? If so, I would be very interested in your opinions? Thanks in advance, Phil and Judy.
Hi Judy, hi Phil! Yes, I know this cat very well. I met the original owners around 2000 in southern Spain and we got good friends. As it is with cruising people, we went to different directions and we lost contact. Sorry to hear they went to a special travel. To the boat: first, it was 20 years ago I was on their boat. This is for sure a sturdy built boat. Not the fastest, but as you seem to have experience with cats you will know this. I liked the interior, the 2 a bit separated areas in the salon are very good for cruising. I don’t know what’s your intention with the boat. What I don’t like too much about this design is the far forward reaching bridgedeck. It will slam. Plywood epoxy constructions are very good, I had 2 boats in this way. Just have a look if there is no rot all around the boat. I would advice to hire a surveyor which has a lot experience with cats. On the other hand, if you have some skills, you can easily repair a plywood boat, but it would reflect on the price you are willing to pay. I don’t know about the price, just think on adding some extra money for updates - standing rigging, sails, engines and so on. My ex boat, 40 feet too, is for sale by their next owners in langkawi/Malaysia for euro 50.000.- and it was in very good condition when I sold it 2014. If you have more questions, write me on our UMADUM sailing websites email. Good luck!
I’m thinking on what catamaran would be better. My think is: a 40 performer would be as expensive as a 45 cruising. And a 45 cruising would have the interior as a 50 performer. Then should we compare a 50 performer vs a 40 cruising? In this scenario is still faster the performer? I’m not sure wich is the best decision for a blue sailing world trip with the family even if I love sailing and speed.
First, I would think, stay away from the chartermarans. Than have a look which decent performance cats are available. Don’t be shy to look at a good second hand boat. Just be sure to have a surveyor which is specialized on catamarans. More length is more speed and if designed right, it’s more comfortable. but: 02-30 years ago the length of a cruising boat was 35 feet. You can sail with every boat around the world 😉
I have seen quite a lot of Schionning cats in a very bad state. Brocken bridgedeck/ hull connections was the worst. A cat in Chagos the cruiser community tried to help with numerous problems, so he could go on sailing across the Indian Ocean. This all was 10-15 years ago. Maybe they got better, I don’t know, but since then I lost interest in this boats. I got the idea, they are very light and fast, but far away from strong. But: this is my very personal opinion based on meeting too many Schionings with serious problems
Like I said, I didnot have a look into Schionnings for a long time. Many years ago the difference between his and Graingers kits where, that at Graingers cats you assemble them with decent layers of fiberglass at the connections, while at Schionnings there was nearly nothing. Not my style for a strong cat. But I have to say, this is all experience from years ago, so might be not up to date
Great video, thanks - obviously you are a performance cat sailor and this video focuses on this. Curious about your charter cat experience and whether you have real crossing experience with them (Lag, FP, ...).... Thanks
No, I have not. But here in the Caribbean there are tons of them. And I see them motoring around most of the time. If you looked to this charter model in our Video, which is bouncing up and down, you may know, why I did not. You can cross an ocean in almost everything. If you see the motions in our south atlantic crossing film in 35 knots of wind and heavy cross seas, you may understand our decision for a performance cat.
@@roderikvanl I had the same question and noticed most of the performance cat owners/fans have spent very little time (if any) on cats that they are bashing.
First: we are not bashing. We just show the difference. Second: I don’t have to have the experience of driving a truck to be able to tell that it will be a faster and more comfortable ride in a BMW ( put in your favorite car...) than in a truck. Third: I speak with many cat owners. They are happy to share their experience. After the phase “mine is the best” and some more beers you can hear their story’s. 😉🥂
As a new person to these cool cats would it be possible to replace the engines with electric motors and batteries charged by solar, making these machines super independent?
It’s done at some boats, as far as I know, you still need a generator besides the solar. But it depends, where you are sailing and what I sy our route. I met already 1999 a German guy with electric motors and solar only on a fast circumnavigation. He went mostly with the trades, so his engine need was only to come into Harbours and anchorages, the props recharged the batteries while he was sailing. If you are sailing like in Asia where there is no or almost no wind for halve a year it would be difficult without back up generator.
Of the three boats, only Chris Whites are listed on yachtworld. Have no idea where I would find a mumby. BUT- you are doing good work here, letting people know. Charter made catamarans viable as an industry, now cruisers are buying charter cats because thats what’s available. Hopefully with time the cruiser oriented non-charter cats will get better. Royal Cape, Maverick, Antares, Xquisite are all targeting cruisers with charter style cats.
I was looking for a new secondhand boat 6 years ago. And it was a bit of a search. But I knew exactly, what type of boat is suitable for me. After searching the internet three where only 3 boats left. On the other hand, it’s fun, you learn a lot. There where 3 or 4 Loopings listed for awhile, but they have seemed to be sold. Now and then you find a Mumby. They are all no mass production boats
The Mumby's do pop up for sale from time to time, but they usually sell very quickly and hold their value well. When I bought mine, it was on the market for 3 days before I had a signed contract on it.
Speed is fine but having a heavier boat has its advantages as well when you are actually get hit by the weather. It's rather unlikely that you'll frequently outrun a storm. Maybe on occasion but certainly not always, in which case a heavier cat is much more comfortable and, most importantly safer.
Why should a heavy cat be more safe in bad weather?????? I disagree completely. A cat on top of the waves is much more comfortable and much more safe than one which is digging into the waves. Believe me, I had both types of cats. Look at our South Atlantic Crossing film, how our light cat behaves in 35 knots of wind and about 5 meters cross waves.
@@UmadumSailing I could write a long answer or simply direct you towards the latest clip of Catamaran Impi's channel where he addressed the specific topic. Here it is : th-cam.com/video/vxzd0d9z_6M/w-d-xo.html
I stopped looking to the video, when they where talking about it’s a must having an air conditioning on a boat. You can go on with this. You need ice maker, bread maker... If you need all this for cruising, then you need a truck type of boat. It’s fine, if you need all this for a happy cruising life. But don’t tell, that a heavy, overloaded boat is more save. It’s just not true. If you look in our film to the one jumping, hobbyhorsing boat - I would not like to sail on it. Imagine, what this boat does in conditions we had on our south Atlantic crossing. And this where normal conditions. I had never the idea it was heavy weather out there, just normal conditions. A good cat has to swim on top of the waves like a piece of styrofoam. If you are digging into the waves, it starts to get dangerous. In 35 knots of wind it’s just uncomfortably, in 50 or 60...
@@UmadumSailing I think you should watch the whole video. There are pros and cons for heavy vs light cats (as long as there aren’t any major design flaws). The specific couple have gone through severe storms. The cat you showed “hobbyhorsing” could have had a poorly distributed load in it or very specific conditions (specific wave frequency) that don’t apply to general/most conditions. I don’t know. Like I said , you should watch more of that video, they explain and support their claims very well. They are good and experienced skippers as well, not your average weekend cruisers.
Not only is speed a safety factor, but as Farrier/Corsair used to say "Fast is Fun". The real essence of sailing is actually sailing and most conditions worldwide average out to light wind conditions where the overweight slugs can't move. Unfortunately the recent lighter cats have become extremely pricey as almost every designer/manufacturer has jumped onboard the trend to make fatcats for the chartering multiples. It's where 95% of the market has gone so can you blame them?. I'm a trimaran owner/builder (F-9A) and I love that performance but cats (43' and up) for cruising are the optimum for many reasons. I don't expect F-9A performance but I'd still like to be able to have fun, spirited sails. Unfortunately, I can't sink a million into a boat (or even half that/more like a quarter or third)
Yes, so true! Light wind is what very often is to expect. Go for a 2nd hand one, 2 of these 3 cats are affordable, and there are smaller Atlantic’s which are in the same price range than the usual chartermarans
Just go to a marina or an anchorage and have a look. You will see the difference immediately. A heavy boat has to have wider hulls unless you want to have a submarine. For sure you can look at formulas, I don’t know them. I sail a boat and feel the difference. And besides it’s the shape of the hulls which make a lot of difference. Our boat has no dagger boards but still tacks upwind through about 90 deg.
I have no idea about their building quality, if they are good built I love their concept of all living space in one area. Always wanted a boat where you don’t go down into the hades for sleeping. Like the technical/engine room concept. And I hear they are great and fast sailboats. What I don’t like is the nuisance of the raised helm position - seams to be this horrible concept is so trendy in the moment that no shipyard can avoid it. I would like to sail on one of the Neels to get the feeling...
@@UmadumSailing All the boats you mentioned were on our list. :-) There was an amazing looking Looping in Reunion, but a slightly too high price and the logistics in the moment meant that we didn't even go to look at it. Mumbys were only available in SE Asia and Chris White's Atlantics far above our budget. In the end we bought an older one-off 48ft catamaran with slender hulls, good bridgedeck clearance, and built in epoxy-honeycomb construction. Quite a light boat, even though one previous owner added quite a lot of unnecessary weight, that we are now ripping out again. :-) We finally launched the boat last week after a lot of work. Will leave next year with the family.
Great video, thank you for all the information! Regarding length, are there major running cost differences and marina costs differences for say a 42 foot versus a 52 foot? Also, would a composite hull be more buoyant in a major accident than say an aluminium hull?
We stay in marinas only when it’s absolutely necessary. So I really don’t know. It doesnot really depend on the hull material. The main factor is if the designer built in the right amount of buoyancy. Some of the chartermarans have not. Be carful. I don’t want to mention names. A cat should stay afloat whatever damage happened, if it’s designed and built right!
Foam core plastic composite boats will generally float even if partially flooded since the foam itself is buoyant. Multihulls in general are much less likely to sink than monohulls. Marina costs rise rapidly with length. Look up some marinas and their fees. Most have web sites.
It’s not only bulkhead issues, there was this Lagoon out of Tanzania, sinking, nothing seen of the boat or the crew no more. A catamaran should not sink whatever the damage is. People should know about this safety issues..
Drat not a single example of these boats that I can find for sale. People probably buy "those other boats" because they can actually find one for sale. Not the best reason but what else are you going to do?
There where 4 or 5/Loopings for sale last year, seems all have been sold. Atlantic’s are for sale now, look at the website of Chris White. When I sold my last cat, it took me half a year to find my dreamboat, but it’s worth the effort, and it’s fun and you learn a lot.
Not all of them do, clever deigned hulls, putting the weight in the center of the boat, have no upstairs steering stations and so on helps. But if you put in a 40 feet cat 4/ doubles, a lot of bathrooms and toilets, a generator, an air condition and so on it will not work. Unluckily most of the modern production cats are made for charter, and there it doesn’t matter. They never go out in bad weather, room for 8+ people is the goal. If you look to the leopard going exactly on the same wind and waves like we did and we filmed from our boat without any gimbals you see the difference. For me this is comfort, not another bathroom with golden taps..
Really don´t understand when people say 45 ft´s with 11 ton is not heavy, when you have others 45 ft´s with 5 or 6 ton.People have strange interpretation of physics. Blows my mind!!
That’s how it is. Even if you show them, how easy the motions of a good designed and light cat are, as we show on our 2 south Atlantic crossing films. How we cook easily fancy meals at 35 knots of wind in about 5 meters of cross seas...
No, never. And I have been in force 11 for 2 days and 2 nights. You have to do a lot of wrong things to capsize a decent cat. as better the cat is designed, as harder it will be to capsize it. We reef to the gusts. - not like on a mono to the average wind. When you are running with the wind from behind, there are days of very strong winds necessary to build up braking waves that will start to become dangerous. A 50 knot squall for some hours does no harm as long you are decently reefed. You are always faster than the waves, so they don’t play with your boat like you know it from a mono. If you go with your car with 100 km/h through a tight 90 deg curve, you will end up in the fields - did you ever think that you are driving an unsafe car or you just where too fast.
You are right, but they are not the only ones - and in the title of this film is the word affordable, not sure if everybody can afford Catana and Outremer...
We where sailing the same angle to the wind like the Leopard, same waves, just in the opposite direction. Old man, for sure we where not able to film our boat from outside - but if you look how steady the picture is I made from our boat (just with a normal phone, no stabilizers) you will see the difference. So if you look a bit more closely and still think I am fooling, I cannot help you, maybe you just need a visit to the eye doctor. 😉
@@UmadumSailing I test sail leopards in cape town, in the roughest waters and can send you video evidence to discredited your opinions. You caught an ill experienced sailor during a bumpy bit and used that footage to evangelize your views. You were just talking shit and belittling other boats, in a sad and desperate attempt just so you might deem yourself 'better than' others. Fragile fools and oafish clowns will do the most for the tiniest morsel of hollow validation.
![15 Things We'd Do Differently - [5 YEARS ON A CATAMARAN]](/img/n.gif)
My wife and I have been catamaran shopping for a number of months and have, of course, watched a lot of videos. This one is one of the most useful I've seen. Thank you!
Your comment makes us really happy!
😉🥂⛵️🎥❤️
I’m still a big fan of the Mumby 48 ever since I learned about Jupiter a few years ago! A durable, performance, cruising Aluminum Catamaran that still moves despite light winds just makes sense to me. My dream version of it would be to incorporate the Hybrid setup and other upgrades that the Wynns put into their new Curiosity catamaran.
The "otherwise they act like a submarine" comment had me chuckling. Subtle humor mixed with valuable analysis. Very good!
A bit of humor in this horrible times is always necessary!
Thanks for getting the humor in the right channel
I own the SMG50 plus performance catamaran. Similar to the Chris white design, and has all the above traits of true blue water performance cat, stiffness, clearance, speed, comfort, movement, sail management, IMO a perfect compromise.
Great video guys. We lived aboard our 52 foot Crowther Anui and cruised for 14 years she’s still blasting around leaving other boats for dead at 20 years old and we about to start building a Schionning Arrow 1360 next year to sail off for our retirement. Check Schionning out as another great performance design.
Thanks Scott. Yes, Crowther designed a lot of good boats. Especially at times, where cats where mostly designed bad, his designs where very special. Our list of other designs is just what it is - very personal. Everybody will find his own performance cruising cat. We wanted just to show how to look in a different direction. You cannot imagine, how many of these chartermarans are here in the Caribbean used as a live aboard boat - motoring up and down the island chain- and if you ask them, they find this very comfortable.
Good luck with your boat building 😉🥂
Oh wow a 48 Mumby - all aluminum. Built in Philippines - 2015.
Yes, a wonderful cat
You have just popped up in our feed - WOW ! GREAT STUFF Tali and Guenther - we really enjoyed the video, and agree with your view about performance cruising. 13:29 picture vs 1000 words. Looking forwards to the boat tour of your Looping. The Atlantic looks very slippery and well thought out. Jamie & Princess' Cyber/Mumby 48 Jupiter² was very unusual and very interesting too. We have a couple of fantastic new sailing channels to follow - Umadum Sailing, Life on Jupiter. Good times and lots of binge watching ahead ! Cheers, Gavin & Amanda
Seems you enjoyed. Wonderful! That’s the reason for us to make films! 😉🥂⛵️🎥
You guys have a great style and are so encouraging. Thanks for sharing your journey with us.
Welcome! And thanks for your kind comment 😉🥂⛵️🎥
don't mind me friends...i am "window day-dreaming" about sailing and exploring. thankyou for educating us and taking us along, someday i meet rich woman and we go sailing, and i will enjoy the 7 Seas; just as soon as i finish washing the dishes, and cooking, and doing laundry, and tacking. 😁🖐
Don’t dream, just untie the lines, Ross😉
Great video. Really an eyeopener for me with other brands than the usual ones that are normally shown on youtube. Thanks 👍🏻😁
Yes, that’s the problem with the advertising industrie
yes performance cat definitely seems the way to go for me for a multihull - finding one the right way up with my $100k budget is not so easy
Don’t be shy of older boats in good shape
I’m new to sailing and have been looking at boats trying to decide on one and so glad I found this vlog!
Good that the film helps you a bit to decide...😉🥂🎥
@@UmadumSailing it definitely helped and changed my thinking!
So the lot of work was not for nothing! Just untie the lines! 😉
@@UmadumSailing lol will do Capt!!
We are on the hunt for a performance catamaran too. Even made a channel about it (and our current life living on an island in Panama)
Get moving with light winds is important. Going really fast is exhausting! Eight to ten knots is the comfort zone.
Yes, that what we think too when crossing oceans
Difficult boats to find used. ALL GREAT. Good presentation.
Yes, but its possible. And you can let you build a new one of the mumbys…
Nice video guys... Its great to show people that there are real sailing cats available and not just the expensive floating condos!
Thanks, yes that was the idea behind, 😉🙏🏽👍🏾❤️
lol why are all you old generation folk so absolutely triggered by these what you call 'expensive floating condo's?' opinions and attitudes like that just show me that you and what you believe are irrelevant and redundant
Thanks for this. Very informative. Had not heard of two of them. Still sailing my monohull, which I have had fir over 20 years. Started to think about a cat for the future.
You will be happy on a good designed cat 😉🥂
Great video guys. I love seeing catamaran owners discussing the merits of different shapes and situations. Very informative. Thank you.
Thanks Bob, appreciate that you liked it. You can see more of real life on our boat at the south Atlantic crossing films, enjoy 😉🥂⛵️
Hi, thank you, very interesting ! I have a Lerouge and I love to hear about other nice cats of similar families !
Hi Jerome, we made a film about a Lerouge too, just look at our channel, have fun!😉😎👍
Just watched your video-- you raise the issues well-the only one missing was the issue of daggerboards which I'm a keen fan of. The other designer to add to your list is Mark Pescott. He is an Australian designer influenced by Crowther but his boats are wonderful to sail--I built a 11.7 and it sailed wonderfully and had all the space we needed. There aren't many of his boats for sale but they have the reputation of 'being the cat to beat'.
Hi Phil. I love Mark Pescots boats. Saw some of them in Thailand, including his own one. I am not sure, that they are what we call cruising boats. Seemed to me more a coastal cruiser. Help me, if I am not right!
I have mixed feelings with daggerboards, 50:50. The Looping is sailing close to the wind very well, we make 90 deg through a tack. But we are lazy sailors. Not to operate one more thing is not bad.
@@UmadumSailing No they're perfectly capable of crossing oceans. I took mine out in 35-40 knots and 5-6m seas on the nose and it was clear she could handle more than I could. Off the coast of Sydney--you are in pretty wild seas a lot of the time-it is so your boat has to be able to handle it. Mine was 11.9m and I had 500l of water on board, however, we lost about 2 knots of boat speed going upwind, from 10 to 8 knots when fully loaded up with live aboard gear. There is a 13.5m one that has sailed extensively around the Pacific and Asia--there's a video on my channel of us going upwind in 40 knots offshore--can't say it was very comfortable but we were on a deadline. P
@@UmadumSailing I like the options that daggerboards give you and of course the performance. However, I am aware that the Loopings seem to go to windward like a train with mini keels
What’s your channel, Phil?
We met and went onboard Segue when she had just been launched in 2004 in Madagascar... Sweet ride..
I was the same year in Madagascar. Austrian boat, named MANA MANA. Did we meet?
@@UmadumSailing maybe we were on a `Roberts Spray . SV Munjon
The guy that had Segue built was an Englishman called Malcolm.. I have pictures of us all out dinner a whole tribe of people in Nose Be. Will see if I have the pictures. There was also Rutahrdt a german guy on El Gecco another cat a Swonning I think.
We met El Greco again in Chagos, his boat was falling nearly apart.
A lot of new cruisers seem to think that if you could go faster why wouldn't you? I'm afraid it's not that simple, in the sailing world everything is a compromise, you can't just get something for nothing. Comfort or speed both come at a cost, if all you want is to get as fast as possible from point a to point b than you definitely should look for that Performance cat. Heck, Get a power Cat! But you should understand REALLY well what the trade-off is before you make a decision. Specially if you're new at this.
Here's a couple reasons I we chose a cruising boat for our family.
1. I'm not in a hurry, and even my carbon fiber hull friends only get there a couple hours before we do here in the Caribbean.
You would be surprised how fast a cruising boat can be if you know how/when to trim properly or if you have a couple of Performance sails.
2. Most cruisers spend 90% of their time at anchor, why wouldn't you prioritize comfort and space? That's like buying a Ferrari to commute to work because you can still take it to the track once a month.
3. Performance boats can sail quick in light breeze but their light weight makes it much more uncomfortable in higher winds and heavier seas, a 15+ ton cruising cat will sail in heavy winds and seas all day and not fatigue the crew as much.
All I can say is, do your homework. 😊
Ok. But the issue is not to be on the next anchorage an hour earlier. In light winds it is sometimes the question if you can sail or you have to use the engines.
On our south atlantic crossing from Africa to Brazil we had for days 35 knots of wind and heavy cross waves - and it was comfortable on our boat -look at our video, we were nicely cooking every day.
And we had many days with nearly no wind. With the big spinnaker we sailed very slow, but, we could sail. Imagine to run the engine(s) for days and days, thats boaring, loud, stinky. How many liters of diesel you have to carry with you. And this amount of weight again makes your boat a ton heavier so you cannot sail in extremely light winds.
All 3 performance cats we featured in this film are very comfortable, have a lot of space, but are designed clever for low weight.
You cannot say, that light cats are uncomfortable in strong winds. If they are designed well, they are even more comfortable than heavy ones.
On our boat we feel very comfortable even in high winds, because of the easy motions of the boat in high waves. Again: look at our 2 South Atlantik crossing films.
And again:its not the question if you arrive 2 hours earlier on the next anchorage - even its nice tobe able to do that…
Enfin des vrais catamarans de croisières sur TH-cam
Very useful series. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Yes we got a lot of comments, that this series changed some peoples views about catamarans…
I just don't get it when people say "We don't care about having a fast boat" You can always make a fast boat slower if you want to, but you'll never make a slow one faster.
I personally want some of those modcons and niceties that make a boat heavier, like a nice big battery bank to power my refrigerators and freezers, television, computer, etc... even some of the "floating apartment" things like doors on cabinets and walls that don't feel like a bathroom shower stall. But you can get those things without making your boat a pig, and can still get the higher performance with cats like the Balance and HH, or go a bit heavier and get a seawind.
I don't think I would ever want to have a xquisite, or privilege, or antares, despite how nice they are on the inside. They're just too heavy and slow. But I could definitely see myself in a seawind 1260, 1370 or 1600 that are a bit heavier, but can still hit 20+ and give that thrill of "real sailing"
That being said, I generally look at it like this;
If it takes a 25 ton boat to get someone out there on the water, sailing and enjoying it, then it doesn't bother me. As long as they invite me over for a drink when they finally arrive at the anchorage :)
True, you can slow down if you want. We do this sometimes on crossings, sometimes we go full speed. Just as our feelings are on this day.
That a heavy seawind will make 20 knots, is only what some YT channels are telling you. Even if the put a diagram into the camera doesn’t mean its happening in real live. Not even with an empty boat and for sure not with a loaded cruising boat. Stop dreaming, there is physics...
@@UmadumSailing There is also video evidence of it. Maybe not the 1260 (the lightest of the three I mentioned) and of course the 1370 hasn't splashed yet so we will have to wait on that one, but the 1600 has most certainly done more than 20 knots. I've seen video of one (can't remember if it was a Balance, HH, maybe a TS) doing 26 or 27 in 22 knots true and only having a D/L slightly better than a seawind 1600.
Displacement is only one number. You could strip down a lagoon to get a good D/L ratio and it would still be slow. You could then increase your sail area to get a better SA/D ratio and it would still be slow. This is because the hullform isn't designed for performance on a lagoon. They have fat, inefficient hulls.
As for a heavier boat being able to hit 20+, that is primarily because the hulls on these newer boats are much better designed with greater understanding of hydrodynamic forces. And that is happening because of these condomarans being so popular. There's a lot of money to be made in catamarans, which has driven further r&d and pushed the designs forward. The advent and accessibility of CFD hasn't hurt either, lol.
And of course, we're not even mentioning that the lighter your boat is, the more sensitive it is to weight. A 7 ton boat is definitely going to be fast, but you gotta make damn sure you don't overload her (are you weighing your provisioning before leafing, or emptying your tanks?) There's a certain advantage to having a heavier boat in that respect. If your in laws come aboard for a trip and bring half their possessions, it's not going to impact the boat as much.
In the end, the era of super light cruising cats that you don't have to build in your backyard is over. Just like with cars, International regulations have stepped in and demand certain things that are just going to make the bare hull heavier to start with.
While you *may* be able to find one of these older designs for sale on the used market and pay through the nose (I've seen 15 year old chris whites like in this video listing for almost $2m), or track down the plans and build it yourself, finding something comparable to these three, in good condition is not an easy proposal.
Will they do this with full water and fuel tanks, spare parts, tools, full cruising battery banks and and and. If you start with a light boat and you add all this extra weight for cruising, you still end up with a light boat. If you add 2-3 tons for cruising on a heavy empty cat you will end up with a very heavy cruising cat.
Listen to owners who had this problem and not to YT videos for Promotion...😉
Nicely stated...I will gladly invite you for a drink and bbq on my new Privilege.
BTW...there are times in bad seas where the heavier cat is much safer than a matchstick...
🙂
@@UmadumSailing Actually, cats are very easy to overload, so if you add 2-3 tons (very easy to do with 2 people) to a 7 ton boat, you end up with a 9 or 10 ton, overloaded cat that used to be light and fast, but now has sunken down below her DWL. You've increased the boats weight by nearly 50%! Like I said, are you emptying your water tanks before you set sail? Are you giving up the security of having the tools and spares you need to fix your boat in the middle of a passage when something goes wrong? Not out of a desire to go faster, but out of a desire to keep from going slower and more dangerously?
You talk about safety and how light boats are much safer because they are faster, but a heavy boat that isn't overloaded is SIGNIFICANTLY safer than a light boat that is sunken down below her DWL.
You are worshiping a single number that tells you maybe 5% of the story. There have been plenty of light cats that were dogs in the water, and there are plenty of what you consider heavy boats that can do 200+ mile days with ease. This isn't marketing b.s. it's science, backed up by real world examples. The statistically fastest and most stable boat of the three in the video is the heaviest one, and it is statistically slower and less stable than boats of the same length that are heavier. Before you start telling people which boat to buy, you should maybe actually understand the engineering behind them.
In just the last couple of years there is a new displacement hull form that given identical numbers, is 20-30% more efficient than what was state of the art just 5 years ago. These 20 year old hulls that are basically identical to the hulls used 40 or 50 years ago are just not a valid comparison.
As for your "listen to owners" comment, I just recently criticized the decision of someone who owned a MUCH lighter cat than you do (therefore, by your logic, MUCH better) who said their next cat would be a 25 ton, 50 foot Xquisite X5 (after crossing the atlantic in one) because it was so much more comfortable and so much safer. I told them that there is a much better compromise between 6 tons and 25 tons in roughly the same LWL where you can have those modcons without giving up too much performance.
There are plenty of owners out there who will say you're crazy, plenty of owners out there who will say "who cares" and plenty of owners out there who won't even bother listening to the question in the first place. Give me an opinion and I will show you pages of people who agree with it.
At the end of the day if you want to sit there looking at the FPs, privileges, exquisites and Lagoons (arguably the statistically fatest, slowest cats out there, not to mention ugliest, imo) thinking about what a horrible decision that person made and how terrible things are for them, and feeling superior, that's fine, feel free to, it's your time and energy.
Meanwhile those people you are obsessing over are sitting on their fat, heavy, dogs thinking "Man, there is nowhere I would rather be than right here, right now".
You're doing something amazing, seeing the world and getting to do it on one of the most efficient types of vehicle possible, one powered by the wind itself. You are doing something that represents the very core of human exploration. Why does it matter if someone else next to you at anchor chose a different boat?
Atlantic 55
Cyber 48
Looping 45
Hey guys! Love this video and the Atlantic 44 happens to be one of our favorites too. It is good to get a different perspective and while we own a Bali 5.4 ourselves and love the boat and it's performance, we absolutely understand the value of a faster lower profile catamaran in the rougher seas where we come from in South Africa. We get to sail on many different cats all the time and I think you made a good choice here in the performance category, although I have to say that we have a soft spot for Catana also.
I like Catana too, it was just to expensive for me.
Dear Tali and dear Günther,
informative and good video. Your Cat is actually a cozy and quick one. I was able to test it on board for 6 weeks. Be glad you don't have a floating caravan! Kind regards, Clark
Caravans are for camping, best wishes to Austria,🥂⛵️🇦🇹
Looking forward to your full boat tour. Wish you could have given us interior walkthoughs of the others too. Do you know if these other builders are typically represented at the multihull show at La Grande Motte?
They are for sure not on boatshows, there you will find only mass production boats with big budgets for advertising. They have to earn this money.building lesser quality or selling a lot of boats for too high prices or selling whole series to charter companies to very low prices, and this again makes the quality go down. This is a special market, you have to look for yourself and have to investigate - but maybe this is the fun thing to do?
A lot of people are asking about our boat. Nearly nobody has ever heard about a Looping, but people, who have investigated for performance cats all seems to know them.
Super awesome video full of great information. We are on the hunt for a performance catamaran too.
Thanks! Australia has a lot of good cats, I don’t know where you want to sail...
I enjoyed your video, and the real sea dog assessment! I think perhaps you are not so far away from the type of choices Ruby Rose made in settling on a Seawind 1370, and they had fun on a Dazcat whilst looking.
As someone who is more of an old hot dog than a sea dog, I like the choices made in the Broadblue Rapier 550, where all the rigging comes down inside the cabin although you can do things from outside if you want, you have no actual need to go outside in inclement conditions.
When its fine you can go outside and helm and control sails there, when it ain't, you stay inside!
The seaiwnd is a very heavy boat. The Dazcat is a real racer. Nice boat.
The Looping is my 3rd cat in this 25 years of cruising. You get a lot of experience sailing this many tourend miles...
@@UmadumSailing 'The seaiwnd is a very heavy boat.'
? I think you may be thinking of a different boat.
It is not an out and out performance boat, but 'very heavy' is certainly not accurate.
Here are the specs:
www.seawindcats.com/seawind-1370/
11 tons for 45 feet and a fixed keel put it out of the performance boat category, but hardly make it a Lagoon.
I don’t know what you mean with not very heavy, our 45 foot cat weights 5,3 tons, so the sea wind is more than double. For me, this is too heavy. Sailing in light wind conditions instead of using the engine... it’s just normal physics, more weight and you need more power. No sailing in winds of 5-10 knots
The Seawinds are definitely not fast or performance cats! Compared to Lagoons et al, they do sail better, but they are heavy and without daggerboards sail poorly upwind. In a 2-3 hour race, we would beat them by an hour in harbour races--this was a 40' Pescott bridgedeck cat against Seawind 1250s and 1000s.
@@DavidMartin-fk9sd that is a very heavy 45' boat!
Merry Christmas 🎅
Merry Christmas to you too, and may the next year be much better than the last one...
😉🥂⛵️
Excellent video, made me rethink my ideas. Thanks
Good that it helps a bit to get different ideas about cats.
Cats are great at anchorage, coastal and caribian sailing, even for atlantic or southern passage but I would not sail them at drake passage or tasmanian sea nearby. Neither Arctic rolling 50´s to the Antartica. I think there has been shortage between pricerange 200-300k as second hand cats for long period of time but that is quickly chancing because charter companies generally change inventory every 5 years. Fountain Pajot alone has sold 900 units 45 feet model over the passed 10 years while cats become more popular cruising homes over the passed 5 years. Caribian territory all the way to panama is full of cats available in few years time when charter companies receives new models (with eEngines). One reason for secondhand shortage has been also hurricane irma because it destroyed huge number of cats & loaded insurance claims backlog orders for factories. Some catamaran factories have 3 years que to get your own for this reason. Cor19 boosted a lot of new yacht sales also in europe and US.
Cats and cats are different, what you say it’s true for all the charter brands. I would not mind to go to the regions you mention with a good designed cat. But: it’s the same with monos. I would not go there with a bad mono too.
Thank you for the great information and interviews. Great video!
Thanks Mike for your lovely comment - we are happy when this infos help ...😉⛵️🎥
Atlantic, even 46/47 is not in a 200-300k range (unfortunately).. love Chris White designs
Yes, looks like. I was looking for a 46 some years ago, this was in this price range. But I heard, in America you make an offer far away from the asking price, don’t know if it works...
You can't even get one built back in the '90s for that. A 57 with Mastfoils would be the cat of my dreams.
We where speaking of used cats, nothing wrong with it, if they are built well. Some home builders make better boats then some shipyards
I was looking for the 46 some years ago, nearly the same boat. At the testsail there was 01 knots of wind, wow, the cat was going...
Very intersting video. Thank you. Was looking at Lagoon - now not so sure. But - I am 6'6 (200 cm) tall. Will that be possible an any of the performance cruicers you have looked at? finding reliable data on standing headroom is a pain.
Yes, the only way you have to get extra data for the boat you find. 😉🥂⛵️🎥🇦🇹
They all great looking catamarans!
Thanks! Yes they are. There is an old saying about sailing boats: if they look good, they sail good 😉
very informative video, thank you
Fine you enjoyed...
Just excellent! This clip was a "must" when you look on the market and how the philosophy and pleaseure of multihull sailing goes the wrong way. All the best from Greece.... Catamaran Freydies 46/49 "Maji"
I sailed in Greece for long time, miss it a bit! Thanks for your lovely comment, Klaus!
Grüss Euch! glaube ihr seits auch Österreicher. Bin gerade bei Euch auf Facebook eingestiegen. Die "Katamaran sailing FB Seite" hab ich verlassen....
Vielleicht hast Lust auf die PERFORMANCE CRUISING CATAMARANS zu kommen, ist noch nicht viel los, aber...
@@UmadumSailing Ich bin seit gestern bei Euch dabei. Besser bei Euch dabei als bei einer riesigen Katgemeinde die "Party island's" (Oil rig's) verherlichen. Da werden meine Kommentare zu bissig. Werd mich bei Euch aktiv beteiligen, gibt einiges zu berichten aus meinen 30 Jahren Kat segeln.
Super, ist auch Zeit, dass ein bischen Leben in dieses Forum kommt, freu mich schon 😉
Oh yeah... safety on the Atlantic is just a dream. Good film guys. Good sailboats. Excellent reviews! Thank you!
Thanks Markku, 😉🥂🎥🇦🇹⛵️
Great video. Well informed content and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
Thanks Daniel. Happy to put some effort in it when it helps... 🥂⛵️🎥
Guenter's dream boat list missed the epic Norman Cross Tri called Zara 😉⚓
Yes, you are right 😉
Thanks for the video!
You’re welcome!!! 😉😉😉
Great video, but some of the comments made are a little unfair. We tarvel up and down the windward islands and very rarely have to motor. Our Lagoon 42 will sail at around half the true windspeed, so we have great sailing between the islands. We also crossed the Atlantic in her, with lots of other lagoons and FP's, so to say these boats never leave the marina is totally untrue. Admittedly, we keep her light .. no Aircon, washing machine, large generator etc.
We didn’t say, it’s impossible to sail a condomaran, what we wanted to show, it’s a just big difference. Especially in light winds. I don’t think, this is unfair. Lagoons, fountain Pajots and so on are heavily advertised, performance cats are not. Let’s show - especially to future cruisers - that there are other concepts out there.
@@UmadumSailing Exactly!!
Thank you
Quite interesting and well thought out.
Thanks Lawrence! 🥂😉🎥⛵️
I learned a lot from this one video. Subscribed. Good work.
Thanks for subscribing! Happy that you enjoyed 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Thanks guys for the insights! We are looking down the road to go on a bit of trip with our 2 kids. Outremer and Catana are for the moment on the shortlist. I see in your recommendation that you specify the old Outremer. Would you be able to elaborate?
Just saw your outremer 45 video :) great!!! thx
The old one looks nicer to me, just joking...
The old ones are much more light, heavier boats are not performing as good as light ones. Danson was very specific about weight. There where different Outremers, small house and bigger house. He increased the sail area for the big house version. That tells you, how much the extra weight Is doing to the performance.
For me, performance doesnot mean top speed, this is nice for talks at the beer bar. But you deal very often with light winds. And here performance is very important. You are going with sails at good speed or you are motoring. Burn diesel. Which you have to carry. And this is more weight again.
Adrew van Zyl? Maar dis mos AFRIKAANS!. Nice boats. I'm looking 4 those with wins that go 1/2 above the water. I understand that go really very vast 2. (80 na 100km/u) Thx 4 the video.
That’s in the moment more for racing
Schionning and Oram cats are pretty good performance cats, some are built by pro's, most by homebuilders, but homebuilders doesn't equal inferior quality. Most homebuilders of Schionnings do a better job than shipyards imho.
Nothing wrong with home built cats.
Very insightful!
Thanks Javas!!! 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Great video, really interesting. I know a bit more about catamarans now.
Thanks! We are happy to share some knowledge 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Really rare sort of video. Thx. My question....u are all riding behemots from 45 to 60ft. What do u think about smaller performance cats like schionning 1030,or 1050? Really love the galley down. Cockpit is a bit on a smaller size but it seems like a nice design,capable of double digit sailing and bridge deck clearance seems big. Are they used by a long range sailors? How do u think they would do on open waters? Never cared for lagoons or fp kind of cats, but i'am a monohull sailor so i dont know much about cat sailing. I have a smaller amel alisio,31 ft year 1968 and sail adriatics,do i have been in all kind of weathers.
Thanks Klemmen!
If well designed, you can sail every size of cats offshore, no problem here.
I would rather sail offshore with a 12m good designed cat than on a 15m Bad designed one.
Certainly a longer boat can be more comfortable, but where is the end of this. In the seventies a proper sized boat for sailing around the world was 8-10 meters, if you look now, they all are in the 13-15m range.
I personally am not a fan of Schioning cats, I have seen too many with big issues. But maybe that was just a problem of the builders, I don’t know. They are very light, but if they are strong, I cannot really say.
@@UmadumSailing ,thx for your input. Really appriciate it. Will follow u,glad that i found u. Really like fast cats
excellent video great choices !!!!!
Thank you David. We just filmed one other performance catamaran, as soon as the work on the shipyard allows, there will be a 4th performance cruising cat film 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Check out Maine Cat for long distance cruising. I've helped on several deliveries from Maine to Hopetown and find them to be very comfortable and fast as well. Nice high bridgedeck vs chartercats means no slamming wave tops. Great floorplan as well
Don’t know this boat, sorry.
Thanks
Why do you mention "older" outremers and not the current ones ? If I run the performance numbers(SA/D , Bruce) the current 4X , 5X and 55 look quite good. The 51 is OK , and the 45 is not so thrilling but still way better than any charter .
DazCat is mentionned but you left out Marsaudon Composites with their TS42 (2019 winner of Rolex Fastnet multihull beating a DazCat 1495) and at 5.8 tons for a 42 footer quite light) They also build the TS5 , a 50 footer at 8.6 ton but you can get that down to 7.6 with a lot of carbon . This one wone the 2019 ARC rally with 4 60plus boomers on board beating a Volvo racing monohull !
It’s just a personal list of cats I like. The Danson designed cats where just built with a big eye on weight.
For sure there are more good cats out there. Good, if you mention them. Our personal view was centered at affordable boats too...
@@UmadumSailing The TS5 and TS42 are definitely a lot cheaper than DazCat equivalent (nearly half the price) BTW , Marsaudon Composites have now launched a new brand called Ocean Riding Catamarans and they now sell the TS5 as the ORC50 and the TS42 as the ORC42 . Better still , they also announced the brand new ORC57 (only 11.3 tons !) which will arrive in 2021 (price 1.085 mil euro ex vat). The performance numbers on that one are just amazing . SA/D of over 39 and a Bruce number of 1.56 . The only cats that do a bit better are the unobtainable Gunboat68 and the equally extremely pricey DazCat1895 . Yes , the Rapido tris have also better numbers but way less living space .
The list of new performance catamarans is getting longer every month - but we where talking about affordable boats. If you can spend a million dollars for a good boat you have a lot of choice. Not many people can spend this amount of money
As a liveaboard you will know that most of the time is spent at Anchor, and then do you really want to drive your home at 20 ++ knots when safe and slowly still gets you to the destination in comfort
Yes, why you want to do that? But if you only stay at anchor, why all this expensive equipment? Mast, sails, winches, standing and running rigging? You easily can run home at engine too 😉
Yes. Yes, I really do want my home to do 20 knots in a 25 knot breeze, not
And: they sail much more comfortable. And it’s a big difference, even if you sail “only” in the Caribbean. You come to your next island relaxed and not exhausted
@@ApprenticeGM you obviously have not done much sailing on a large catamaran, to think you can constantly sail at 20 knots and still be comfortable in nonsense
@@venomguysydney Either you can't read, are a fool, or haven't sailed a large performance cat (which I have).
1) Wanting the ability to sail your cat at 20 knots in a 25 knot breeze, as opposed to 10 knots (which I regard as sluggish although others might find it fast eg compared to a mono), does not mean you can't be comfortable.
2) There are a lot of cats that can manage my stated level of performance - Outremers, Schionnings, Orams, Graingers, Dazcats, TS42's etc - and still provide excellent comfort. La Vagabond live a comfortable life, check out their videos sometime.
3) No-one is saying it's 20 knots constantly - that's a straw man argument raised by you - the issue is having a cat capable of that performance in the right wind and sea conditions. eg broad reaching in small seas.
4) Comparably, the sluggish charter cats like Lagoon, FP, Leopard etc, which have much wider hulls especially at the bow, are much heavier, and lack daggerboards, are just much slower, and on passages in particular, are not as safe as performance cats which can outrun or avoid bad weather systems. La Vaga's recent Atlantic crossing is an excellent example of the benefit the speed a faster performance cat provides from a safety perspective.
5) It sounds like you have tried to push a sluggard along quickly and been unimpressed with the lack of comfort from the motion. Well, no kidding, but educate yourself by sailing on a performance cat like one I listed for a few days in a range of weather conditions and you'll understand the motion at speed is actually quite pleasant - less hobby-horsing not more with better weight distribution and wave piercing bows (and even rudder foils on some Dazcats to stabilise).
6) I accept a sluggard cat at anchor is arguably more comfortable than a performance cat as the sluggard has more liveable volume and more weight, but not everyone needs compressors and SCUBA tanks for 8 people on board . . . by all means get a sluggard cat that more suits your needs, but don't spout nonsense like "you can't sail at 20 knots and be comfortable" for sailors that prefer performance cats.
great video however from my analysis there are 2 issues with performance catamarans that i do not like
1. thin hulls make it unstable in storms swinging wildly port to stbs and reverse - some old blog described nicely storm on Fredy 49.
2. it can be easier flipped by wind only. For boats in video, i estimate 100 kn gust will do it on anchor or mooring. Bit too low for my taste as we already experienced 80 kn gusts.
I think to flip it over it needs a tornado or a waterspout. But I never experienced 100 knots of wind. And we try to avoid being in hurricane zones anyway. Which does not work this year thanks to covid restrictions. Till now we where lucky here in Grenada, but if something strange comes, we go out at sea early enough and sail south out of the path
Thin hulls have nothing to do with swinging wildly--the advantage you have with a cat that can sail well--and by definition I mean one that can beat off a lee shore is that you have choices, you can sail fast or you can slow the boat down--our cat was incredibly stable surfing down big seas--we had a 12.5/1 hull beam length ratio and she is the boat I'd prefer to be in in a storm. At the same time, at 12 knots boat speed, we would still be cooking up bacon and eggs for the crew.
Look at our South Atlantic Crossing film: we even cooked full meals at 35 knots of wind and cross seas. You can see in this film how easy the motions of the cat have been
That’s what we think is comfort. But other people think having 3+ toilets is comfort. And a saloon where you can dance... 😉🥂
I'm not sure where your info is coming from but none of it matches our experience on our 40' x24' 12/1 cruising cat. We have only experienced 95 kts sustained at anchor on a bridle with no swinging and because of bridgedeck design the gusts pushed us deeper in the water not lifting us. Capsize has a lot to do with beam and buoyancy. Long lean hulls have a lot of buoyancy when spaced far apart. Stretch a normal 32' cat to 40' and increase the beam to at least 20' retaining the rig of the 32 is the concept.
@@robertgeorge9909 depends of bridgedeck size and position. Large cat that was flipped in marina in NZ is what i am talking about. There are other cases of flipped cats at mooring or anchor. Privilege flipped in 150 kn on anchor. So, i believe lagoon in 150 kn. Exact data not available, however one can estimate flipping relative to other boats. Say if lagoon flips at 150 kn then cats like on this video should at 100 kn, give or take.
Very informative. Thank you. I'm considering buying a Cyber48. How did she perform on the day against the Looping and the Chris White?
Welcome!
They are not really comparable. Looping is 45, Atlantic 55, the Cyber is 48. The Looping is much lighter and has a much smaller sail area then the cyber. They where about the same speed. For sure a 55 boat is faster. Actually we did not racing, we just tried to hold them together for the drone shots.
If you are interested in the cyber, I know the designer and the boats for many years, and believe me, they are fast. Just be careful not to overload them! But that’s the most important thing with all performance cats. Tim always said, he doesn’t put more than 80 liter of diesel on board. The people had the idea he is a bit crazy. Then 2 friends of mine built a Cyber, and guess what they learnt: if you put more diesel you will have use it in light wind conditions...
Very valuable information. Thank you!
Thanks Alex 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Good factual info. Well done!
We try... thank you very much 😉
Why do they need to go fast? Because the can’t handle seas whipped up by storms. They are surely very tempting, but will it survive large seas should you not be able to outrun surprise storm.
Yes, they will! Much better than heavy boats, which are digging into the seas instead of floating on top like a piece of styrofoam. If you look at our South Atlantic crossing film, you will see how they behave. Ok, 35 knots of wind and 5 meters cross seas is no storm, but if you see the motions of this boat you might be able to imagine what it does at 50 knots. And if you look at the heavy cat in the film, you can imagine what this one does in 50 knots conditions...
excellent vid,,, all excellent boats . ( you dont like the new Outremer )
Thanks! Danson weighted every Gramm of his boats. The 50 with bigger house got a larger sail area than the 50 light, the new ones don’t seem to watch the weight of the boats too much, and for me (personally) the old ones looked much more sexy...😉🎥⛵️🥂
@@UmadumSailing Thats what Eric Lerouge told me about the new Outremer as well.
Hi, love your videos, very informative. As a future cruiser looking to purchase our next catamaran, may I ask if you are aware of the Malcolm Tennant Pacific 40 catamaran from circa 1993? If so, I would be very interested in your opinions? Thanks in advance, Phil and Judy.
Hi Judy, hi Phil!
Yes, I know this cat very well. I met the original owners around 2000 in southern Spain and we got good friends. As it is with cruising people, we went to different directions and we lost contact. Sorry to hear they went to a special travel.
To the boat: first, it was 20 years ago I was on their boat.
This is for sure a sturdy built boat. Not the fastest, but as you seem to have experience with cats you will know this. I liked the interior, the 2 a bit separated areas in the salon are very good for cruising.
I don’t know what’s your intention with the boat.
What I don’t like too much about this design is the far forward reaching bridgedeck. It will slam.
Plywood epoxy constructions are very good, I had 2 boats in this way. Just have a look if there is no rot all around the boat. I would advice to hire a surveyor which has a lot experience with cats. On the other hand, if you have some skills, you can easily repair a plywood boat, but it would reflect on the price you are willing to pay.
I don’t know about the price, just think on adding some extra money for updates - standing rigging, sails, engines and so on.
My ex boat, 40 feet too, is for sale by their next owners in langkawi/Malaysia for euro 50.000.- and it was in very good condition when I sold it 2014.
If you have more questions, write me on our UMADUM sailing websites email.
Good luck!
@@UmadumSailing thank you very much for taking the time to reply, we will continue with our search for our retirement cruising catamaran.
I’m thinking on what catamaran would be better. My think is: a 40 performer would be as expensive as a 45 cruising. And a 45 cruising would have the interior as a 50 performer. Then should we compare a 50 performer vs a 40 cruising? In this scenario is still faster the performer?
I’m not sure wich is the best decision for a blue sailing world trip with the family even if I love sailing and speed.
First, I would think, stay away from the chartermarans. Than have a look which decent performance cats are available. Don’t be shy to look at a good second hand boat. Just be sure to have a surveyor which is specialized on catamarans. More length is more speed and if designed right, it’s more comfortable. but: 02-30 years ago the length of a cruising boat was 35 feet. You can sail with every boat around the world 😉
Loved it, great filming.
Thanks Lynn 😉🥂🎥⛵️🇦🇹
Thank you so much! This was very useful. I do believe that your truth is the truth!!👍🏻😁
Thank you so much! We are happy, when people find it useful!
@@UmadumSailing Happy sailing! Love from Portugal:)
Love back to Portugal 😉🥂⛵️🎥
thaks for your video!
You are welcome, Fernanda 😉🥂⛵️🎥🇦🇹
what do you think about Schionning Arrow serries?
I have seen quite a lot of Schionning cats in a very bad state. Brocken bridgedeck/ hull connections was the worst. A cat in Chagos the cruiser community tried to help with numerous problems, so he could go on sailing across the Indian Ocean. This all was 10-15 years ago. Maybe they got better, I don’t know, but since then I lost interest in this boats. I got the idea, they are very light and fast, but far away from strong. But: this is my very personal opinion based on meeting too many Schionings with serious problems
@@UmadumSailing i see, but new Schionning arrow range are made from the same flat pannels like tony grangers' cats Raku are made
Like I said, I didnot have a look into Schionnings for a long time. Many years ago the difference between his and Graingers kits where, that at Graingers cats you assemble them with decent layers of fiberglass at the connections, while at Schionnings there was nearly nothing. Not my style for a strong cat. But I have to say, this is all experience from years ago, so might be not up to date
Great video, thanks - obviously you are a performance cat sailor and this video focuses on this. Curious about your charter cat experience and whether you have real crossing experience with them (Lag, FP, ...).... Thanks
No, I have not. But here in the Caribbean there are tons of them. And I see them motoring around most of the time. If you looked to this charter model in our Video, which is bouncing up and down, you may know, why I did not.
You can cross an ocean in almost everything. If you see the motions in our south atlantic crossing film in 35 knots of wind and heavy cross seas, you may understand our decision for a performance cat.
@@UmadumSailing hmmm have a look at Impi's latest video. It could also be that the skipper is inexperienced and not the boat's fault...
I couldn’t think whatbthe skipper could do else instead of riding the horse more slow, but that’s not what we won’t..
@@roderikvanl I had the same question and noticed most of the performance cat owners/fans have spent very little time (if any) on cats that they are bashing.
First: we are not bashing. We just show the difference.
Second: I don’t have to have the experience of driving a truck to be able to tell that it will be a faster and more comfortable ride in a BMW ( put in your favorite car...) than in a truck.
Third: I speak with many cat owners. They are happy to share their experience. After the phase “mine is the best” and some more beers you can hear their story’s.
😉🥂
Excellent video
Thanks!
Opened my eyes to other options thanks for the info, and I had been looking at overpriced heavy cats.
Happy that we could tell a bit of the other side of the cat story 😉🥂⛵️🎥
Ahh, Chris White cats - I love ‘em!
Me too! one of the best designes with new ideas!
As a new person to these cool cats would it be possible to replace the engines with electric motors and batteries charged by solar, making these machines super independent?
It’s done at some boats, as far as I know, you still need a generator besides the solar. But it depends, where you are sailing and what I sy our route. I met already 1999 a German guy with electric motors and solar only on a fast circumnavigation. He went mostly with the trades, so his engine need was only to come into Harbours and anchorages, the props recharged the batteries while he was sailing. If you are sailing like in Asia where there is no or almost no wind for halve a year it would be difficult without back up generator.
@@UmadumSailing That's really good information 👍 Thanks
Of the three boats, only Chris Whites are listed on yachtworld. Have no idea where I would find a mumby. BUT- you are doing good work here, letting people know.
Charter made catamarans viable as an industry, now cruisers are buying charter cats because thats what’s available. Hopefully with time the cruiser oriented non-charter cats will get better.
Royal Cape, Maverick, Antares, Xquisite are all targeting cruisers with charter style cats.
I was looking for a new secondhand boat 6 years ago. And it was a bit of a search. But I knew exactly, what type of boat is suitable for me. After searching the internet three where only 3 boats left. On the other hand, it’s fun, you learn a lot.
There where 3 or 4 Loopings listed for awhile, but they have seemed to be sold. Now and then you find a Mumby. They are all no mass production boats
The Mumby's do pop up for sale from time to time, but they usually sell very quickly and hold their value well. When I bought mine, it was on the market for 3 days before I had a signed contract on it.
That’s because they are wonderful boats
Speed is fine but having a heavier boat has its advantages as well when you are actually get hit by the weather. It's rather unlikely that you'll frequently outrun a storm. Maybe on occasion but certainly not always, in which case a heavier cat is much more comfortable and, most importantly safer.
Why should a heavy cat be more safe in bad weather??????
I disagree completely.
A cat on top of the waves is much more comfortable and much more safe than one which is digging into the waves.
Believe me, I had both types of cats. Look at our South Atlantic Crossing film, how our light cat behaves in 35 knots of wind and about 5 meters cross waves.
@@UmadumSailing I could write a long answer or simply direct you towards the latest clip of Catamaran Impi's channel where he addressed the specific topic. Here it is : th-cam.com/video/vxzd0d9z_6M/w-d-xo.html
I stopped looking to the video, when they where talking about it’s a must having an air conditioning on a boat. You can go on with this. You need ice maker, bread maker...
If you need all this for cruising, then you need a truck type of boat.
It’s fine, if you need all this for a happy cruising life.
But don’t tell, that a heavy, overloaded boat is more save. It’s just not true. If you look in our film to the one jumping, hobbyhorsing boat - I would not like to sail on it. Imagine, what this boat does in conditions we had on our south Atlantic crossing. And this where normal conditions. I had never the idea it was heavy weather out there, just normal conditions.
A good cat has to swim on top of the waves like a piece of styrofoam. If you are digging into the waves, it starts to get dangerous. In 35 knots of wind it’s just uncomfortably, in 50 or 60...
@@UmadumSailing I think you should watch the whole video. There are pros and cons for heavy vs light cats (as long as there aren’t any major design flaws). The specific couple have gone through severe storms. The cat you showed “hobbyhorsing” could have had a poorly distributed load in it or very specific conditions (specific wave frequency) that don’t apply to general/most conditions. I don’t know. Like I said , you should watch more of that video, they explain and support their claims very well. They are good and experienced skippers as well, not your average weekend cruisers.
Just let me like light cats and I let you like heavy Panzers. Why not? Both is possible, if you have no heavy weather...
Not only is speed a safety factor, but as Farrier/Corsair used to say "Fast is Fun". The real essence of sailing is actually sailing and most conditions worldwide average out to light wind conditions where the overweight slugs can't move.
Unfortunately the recent lighter cats have become extremely pricey as almost every designer/manufacturer has jumped onboard the trend to make fatcats for the chartering multiples. It's where 95% of the market has gone so can you blame them?.
I'm a trimaran owner/builder (F-9A) and I love that performance but cats (43' and up) for cruising are the optimum for many reasons. I don't expect F-9A performance but I'd still like to be able to have fun, spirited sails. Unfortunately, I can't sink a million into a boat (or even half that/more like a quarter or third)
Yes, so true! Light wind is what very often is to expect. Go for a 2nd hand one, 2 of these 3 cats are affordable, and there are smaller Atlantic’s which are in the same price range than the usual chartermarans
I would like to know , how wide is the performance catamaran hull?
Just go to a marina or an anchorage and have a look. You will see the difference immediately. A heavy boat has to have wider hulls unless you want to have a submarine. For sure you can look at formulas, I don’t know them. I sail a boat and feel the difference. And besides it’s the shape of the hulls which make a lot of difference. Our boat has no dagger boards but still tacks upwind through about 90 deg.
A fast cat will generally have a waterline length to beam ratio of more than 12:1, sometimes much more.
Some production cats are less than 10:1.
@@alanjm1234 thank you very much mr alan
what are your thoughts on Neel 51 or Neel 65 trimarans?
I have no idea about their building quality, if they are good built I love their concept of all living space in one area. Always wanted a boat where you don’t go down into the hades for sleeping. Like the technical/engine room concept. And I hear they are great and fast sailboats. What I don’t like is the nuisance of the raised helm position - seams to be this horrible concept is so trendy in the moment that no shipyard can avoid it.
I would like to sail on one of the Neels to get the feeling...
@@UmadumSailing Thank you for your response. I have to go with space. 21 family members
Great info.
Thank you!
Do you also know Balticat?
Yes, I saw one or two. Tell us more about I it!
good video, is Segue still for sale?
Thanks for watching! I don’t think Collin wants to sell Segue 😉
@@UmadumSailing www.sailsegue.com/ It was for sale for some time - I didn't win the lottery, so I had to buy another boat. :-)
What did you buy?
@@UmadumSailing All the boats you mentioned were on our list. :-) There was an amazing looking Looping in Reunion, but a slightly too high price and the logistics in the moment meant that we didn't even go to look at it. Mumbys were only available in SE Asia and Chris White's Atlantics far above our budget.
In the end we bought an older one-off 48ft catamaran with slender hulls, good bridgedeck clearance, and built in epoxy-honeycomb construction. Quite a light boat, even though one previous owner added quite a lot of unnecessary weight, that we are now ripping out again. :-) We finally launched the boat last week after a lot of work. Will leave next year with the family.
Wow! Want to join on the new facebook group “performance cruising catamarans”? Would like to have you there 🥂⛵️🇦🇹
Thank you for a more ‘intelligent’ video!
Thanks for a ‘More intelligent’ comment! Good that you like this style, we try to be a bit different to other sailing channels...
😉🥂⛵️⛵️🎥
Great video, thank you for all the information! Regarding length, are there major running cost differences and marina costs differences for say a 42 foot versus a 52 foot?
Also, would a composite hull be more buoyant in a major accident than say an aluminium hull?
We stay in marinas only when it’s absolutely necessary. So I really don’t know.
It doesnot really depend on the hull material. The main factor is if the designer built in the right amount of buoyancy. Some of the chartermarans have not. Be carful. I don’t want to mention names.
A cat should stay afloat whatever damage happened, if it’s designed and built right!
Foam core plastic composite boats will generally float even if partially flooded since the foam itself is buoyant.
Multihulls in general are much less likely to sink than monohulls.
Marina costs rise rapidly with length. Look up some marinas and their fees. Most have web sites.
I think we’ve all ruled out Lagoon! 😆
Maybe a wise decision...
It depends what your cruising style is
@@UmadumSailing I was mainly referring to the bulkhead issues.
It’s not only bulkhead issues, there was this Lagoon out of Tanzania, sinking, nothing seen of the boat or the crew no more. A catamaran should not sink whatever the damage is.
People should know about this safety issues..
Et le mattia 51 goud
Drat not a single example of these boats that I can find for sale. People probably buy "those other boats" because they can actually find one for sale. Not the best reason but what else are you going to do?
There where 4 or 5/Loopings for sale last year, seems all have been sold. Atlantic’s are for sale now, look at the website of Chris White.
When I sold my last cat, it took me half a year to find my dreamboat, but it’s worth the effort, and it’s fun and you learn a lot.
That's great prices for a boat...
They are not much around on the market. Some searching necessary...
Seawinds???
They are very heavy, more than double the weight than our Looping...
Why do the new 45s and 42 ft cats hobby-horse so badly?
Not all of them do, clever deigned hulls, putting the weight in the center of the boat, have no upstairs steering stations and so on helps. But if you put in a 40 feet cat 4/ doubles, a lot of bathrooms and toilets, a generator, an air condition and so on it will not work. Unluckily most of the modern production cats are made for charter, and there it doesn’t matter. They never go out in bad weather, room for 8+ people is the goal. If you look to the leopard going exactly on the same wind and waves like we did and we filmed from our boat without any gimbals you see the difference. For me this is comfort, not another bathroom with golden taps..
Weight in the ends and high up.
some people buy cheapmaran coz they being cheated end up sale it back.. and buy trimaran
I like trimarans - but you can carry much more weight on a cat, cruising is not racing, where you empty your boat
Really don´t understand when people say 45 ft´s with 11 ton is not heavy, when you have others 45 ft´s with 5 or 6 ton.People have strange interpretation of physics. Blows my mind!!
That’s how it is. Even if you show them, how easy the motions of a good designed and light cat are, as we show on our 2 south Atlantic crossing films. How we cook easily fancy meals at 35 knots of wind in about 5 meters of cross seas...
Have you ever experienced capsizing in a catamaran, or close to it?
No, never. And I have been in force 11 for 2 days and 2 nights. You have to do a lot of wrong things to capsize a decent cat. as better the cat is designed, as harder it will be to capsize it. We reef to the gusts. - not like on a mono to the average wind. When you are running with the wind from behind, there are days of very strong winds necessary to build up braking waves that will start to become dangerous. A 50 knot squall for some hours does no harm as long you are decently reefed. You are always faster than the waves, so they don’t play with your boat like you know it from a mono.
If you go with your car with 100 km/h through a tight 90 deg curve, you will end up in the fields - did you ever think that you are driving an unsafe car or you just where too fast.
@@UmadumSailing Thank you for your point of view. Very helpful
@@The442nd welcome 😉
Catana and outremer is the real blue water cat the another are toys
Can you specify this a little bit
Speed and performance safety is very good in this models 👍💪
You are right, but they are not the only ones - and in the title of this film is the word affordable, not sure if everybody can afford Catana and Outremer...
Personally I click to see sailing catamarans not talkin
Than this was not the right film for you, hearing the expertise of owners of performance cats why they prefer this type of cats
ужасный акцент )))
13:39 - 2 completely different sea states old man, who are you trying to fool? Your TrUtH is a lie lol
We where sailing the same angle to the wind like the Leopard, same waves, just in the opposite direction. Old man, for sure we where not able to film our boat from outside - but if you look how steady the picture is I made from our boat (just with a normal phone, no stabilizers) you will see the difference. So if you look a bit more closely and still think I am fooling, I cannot help you, maybe you just need a visit to the eye doctor. 😉
@@UmadumSailing I test sail leopards in cape town, in the roughest waters and can send you video evidence to discredited your opinions. You caught an ill experienced sailor during a bumpy bit and used that footage to evangelize your views. You were just talking shit and belittling other boats, in a sad and desperate attempt just so you might deem yourself 'better than' others. Fragile fools and oafish clowns will do the most for the tiniest morsel of hollow validation.
Thank you for this very useful video !
Thanks for this comment 🥂⛵️🎥