Foreshadowing Is Not Character Development
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- Let’s talk the final season of Game of Thrones and Mad Queen Daenerys! A little different to my other vids in that it’s less focused on a “trope” and more about a character and her arc. Just needed to get this out of my system. Hope you enjoy the video! If you did please don't forget to like and subscribe.
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"Targaryen genes kicking in" is literally the stupidest excuse ever... no wait, "Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet" tops it, definitely.
That was the worst excuse. How in the world could any of that happen?
@@skywalker6648 They had no idea how to have the serie finished and made up that idiotic excuse. Bad writing is bad I guess
@@skycendre257 That's the truth!
@Drake9Draconiangar Look, Dany wasn't an idiot. I never liked her as a character much, but sure thing she wasn't stupid, and after already losing a dragon it's preposterous to think that she would simply dismiss important details like that. But okay, if it was just her maybe, just maybe I could relent... then what about Varys and Tyrion? Or anyone else? Did they suddenly become idiots too? NO ONE remembers about the Iron Fleet?
They all didn't get that far being stupid and forgetting stuff. Screwing up Dany over something like this is just lazy storywriting - you want her to lose another dragon? Fine with me, then have the "advanced weaponry" shoot at them from the city while she's attacking. Have a spy on her ranks telling them that the fleet is too far to reach them, lying obv, so no one thinks them a threat and then BAM. Have anything else happen, anything which doesn't require a lame excuse for such a poor character arc.
@Drake9Draconiangar Are you kidding me?? They just used the same weapon on Drogon in Season 7 and he got hit. You cannot excuse what happened. Btw, how do you then justify not one arrow from this "advanced weaponry" striking Drogon in the next episode?
Meanwhile Bran had neither forshadowing nor character development to set up him becoming King
@Rogue Viper best comment ever
They will make the Starbucks cup King if they could... Epic Fail.
HE KNEW HE'D BE KING...SO PLAN A...GET THE NIGHT KING OUT OF HE WAY...AND TADA.....SO DISSAPOINTED
@@marky437 wow I think you're pretty much the only one, what did you base that on?
@Rogue Viper LOOOOOL
During the early parts in Qarth, I interpreted her shouting threats more as naive attempts to flex power that she'd only just gotten rather than "mad queen" foreshadowing. It would make sense that someone young and inexperienced in handling "diplomacy" would desperately try to leverage whatever title they had to get what they want, and lashing out when it doesn't work.
Nope not it. Daenerys and her people were starving and dehydrated, she tried the polite way for them to get shelter and food and clearly being nice wasn't cuttin it so being rude was the only way
@@PlanetLexishere Either way, people forget the context of the scene everytime "muh fire and blood" from season 2. The one line they bring up to defend the rushed character arc
Another adaptation failure. The books did a good job so far of moving her in that direction. Having visions that are left open to interpretation as either hallucinations or magic is definitely a good start, and having her snap and do some kind of horrible things for the sake of love would drive her there easily enough. The building loss and paranoia are getting to her, and she's seeing human lives as less and less, the more that die in her name.
If DnD were better writers, we could have had a great character arc.
@@Jane-oz7pp Even then, I’m a little divided. If anyone were to go mad queen, it would be book Cersei. She is incredibly paranoid. She also found pleasure watching the Tower of the Hand get blown up with wild fire, like she thought it was beautiful and turned her on. We will see where Dany goes, but I just don’t see her blowing up the city. Burning down Kings Landing definitely seems like something Cersei would do at the end.
@@Jane-oz7pp honestly what gets me is the missed opportunity of showing how. normal people like you and me could go mad given the right fkd up environmental circumstances. Cuz everything you described could happen to normal people, too, like we could’ve gotten a story of how hurt people hurt people like “she’s an irrational tyrant now, not bc of her genes like everyone else assumes, but bc her life experiences made her this way.” That offers way more complex commentary/meaning than “sometimes people be crazy” lol such a damn shame
jon executed a child before, I guess we can expect him to go nuts on the wildlings any day now... foreshadowing yknow
He will behead them all 😂
That's what I mean, a few are commenting that who Dany went after in the past was different than other characters when it came to executing others but she didn't. Even the Tarly's. Especially, the father who was proven to be a crude person who refused to face the fact that he lost the battle and posed himself as a threat, anyway.
Give you two better. Was Sansa sadistic when she fed Ramsey.to his dogs? That was someone she could have had executed. but instead she had him eaten alive. Thats torture before death. Was she going mad? How about Arya? Was she going mad when she literally cut up Walder Frey's sons? She didn't have to that was sadistic she could have just poisoned them like everyone else. That was sadistic and evil. However Sansa and Arya stans looked past it because they love the characters. I am never one to be PC correct, but how they handled the two most powerful females in the series in terms of their character arc. Meanwhile they have two of the most popular male characters Tyrion and Jon Snow become mumbling stumbling fools survive. I would have been okay with the series if Tyrion and Jon died because you don't continually make mistakes like how Tyrion did for Daenarys and live. He committee treason by not brining information to his queen first. Then just the large number of massivr mistakes he made has Dany's hand. Then Jon Snow the character with the thickest plot armor in TV history. Constantly being saved or brought back to life by females. Ygritte saves him from the Wildings killing him, then not killing him when he betrays her. Mellisandre bringing that idiot back to life only for him to banish her because someone he barely knows (Davos) told him he will kill her if she doesn't ban him. Then Dany saves his life twice. Once beyond the wall after Tyrion told her not to go and save them they made their choice. She lost Viserion because of Jon. Jon went looking for wights to kill and walking away from the dragon to go stare down the Night King.
Then Dany saved his life again because he goes charging the Night King only to be surrounded by hundreds of wights and alone. He was a goner. Then Dany saves him and does this after he had revealed his lineage to her before the battle of Winterfell. If it was me I would have let the Wights take care of my Jon problem. Especially of I was power hungry. George R Martin's favorite characters are Jon and Tyrion. Especially Tyrion who probably reminds George of himself.
@@1975jamrock That is another good example. Yet, for some reason when you point it out to some commenters including some vloggers, they can't accept that they are wrong and choose to ignore all that because they always hated Daenerys character from the beginning and insists some "seeds were planted" from season 1. Which is not true.
@Nadia Ali Murphy She did admit her mistaie horrible mistake it is. But sorry Davos doesn't get to be that influential overnight. She just saved your damn life. What exactly did Davos do in the battle at Winterfell again? Exactly nothing. He could have bamished her away again. How the hell he survived that long in thos series I have no idea.
16:35 What he actually said "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet"? I THOUGHT THAT WAS A MEME. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
well it became a meme after he said this ahah
I understand the disbelief, is so fucking stupid you can't really believe it was a real thing.
I was so insulted and infuriated when he said that.
I thought so too. I thought so too...
Yeah as we can see from the comments above, I think what makes most of the audience frustrated and angry right now, is how stupid D&D think we are, as their audience. They think they can throw stuff like "well she forgoooot!" and "well when she watched her brother die, she didn't care- ALSO she's a Targaryennn!!" to explain the way things are turning so quickly and so unexplicably (in the text of the show itself) because we're dumb, stupid, easy to convince viewers (at least, in D&D's eyes) who will believe whatever storyline they throw at us, as long as they show some titties (even Arya's, whom we've known ever since she was 10 yo AHEM) or good visual effects.
" Danny just kinda forget about the Iron fleet." As did the master of whispers and Tyrion, lmao
The worst part is if you go back and watch they mention the Iron Fleet in their war council literally right before they leave and proceed to get ganked. So they forgot real fucking fast.
@@MrLieutFluffers It feels like thee last season had so many jump cuts that could be filled by whole season. Just look how long it took them to get to King's Landing in the first season. Also I think they completely left out the story of possible famine with all those squabbles before the winter came. I mean the long winter should have been very serious issue on its own without white walkers on top of that.
And don't forget Bran. He didn't warg ahead of time and see this? After all, Dany did try to help him with the NK, he could have given her a heads up. No way to explain this lapse in strategy at all.
@@skywalker6648 Obviously Brann saw it, why do you think he said " that's why I'm here" when Tyrion named him king, evil shit, he totally set Jon up.
@@vantastic9367 LOL, yeah, Bran might as well had said, I had Jon and you do all my dirty work including betraying (and getting rid of) Daenerys with that weird smile on his face!
Emilia Clarke: *sarcastic tone* BEST SEASON EVER!!111
She sounded like she was held at gunpoint when she said that lol
@sabrina joon *They turned such beautiful character into a mess hate this GOT season, they turn stupid sansa into a wise women and brave dany dumb, if she had to go mad why didn't she turned mad when she was with her psycho brother in first season? Such a stupid season*
she said it that way because she knew the mindless masses would whine and she merely doesnt want to be disliked.
@@AJ-js4fl Sansa's had a great character arc though. I'm glad they didn't mess up her character.
It's like you knew the season might be bittersweet when she said that, but not this bitter.
Daenerys:
Locks dragons up because they killed an innocent girl.
Also Daenerys:
Uses dragons to burn innocent children alive.
@@petriksaksamaa Isn't it obvious? She's furious at Cersei so she.... ignores Cersei entirely despite the fact that she could just fuckin fly straight to her, and instead burns random innocents. That's totally in character right?
@@mxlgrt Oh so you would burn children alive because you lost your best friend. I don't know you but I'm willing to bet your family would call bullshit.
@@joshobrien3467 No, she didn't snap because of Cersei. She snapped because everyone around her betrayed her.
Fist Varys, then Tyrion with releasing Jaime.
Nick den Toom
Many characters in the show have been betrayed. Guess what? Many of them didn’t go and commit genocide.
@@nickdentoom1173 hey boi know Jon Snow he is a Targaryen did he commit mass genocide because he was actually betrayed no well your argument just fell on its head
The lose/lose argument you presented really resonated with me. I couldn't quite put it into words but that's exactly it. For every previous of our favorite character's demises, we could see how their choices led to their demise, but we could also understand why they made those choices and why not making them would have changed how everything turned out. The writer's needed Dany to fail so they wrote her character arc into a corner where none of her choices matter. It's frustrating and unsatisfactory; bad writing.
This exactly. And I couldn't put it into words before either.
Had daenerys just attacked king's landing at first when she could, there would be a few civilian casualties sure, but cersei would not have the time to mass produce the scorpion in time which means the iron throne would have been won easily without too much danger for her dragon, westeros would have been united against the night king with her sitting on the iron throne, and also that stupid expedition to capture a wight just to convince cersei for a cease fire would have have never been launch,
which means that daenerys would have never gone to the north to save john, which means that the night king would have never gotten visarion to transform into a wight, and could not have breach the walls, which means that the north would have much more time to prepare their defenses and would be supported by all of what is left of the armies of westeros.
The writers punishes dany for not listenning to her advisor but listenning to them litteraly cost her the victory and many of her allies. Such poor writing from DnD.
This is exactly what i meant its like she had no out at all. she had to be written that way and her enemies HAD to talk about her to kill her.. she had no win, she didnt make her own choices it felt like the writers wrote her to be doomed and thats why i hated the last episode
She was a liberator in Essos but set out as a conqueror to Westeros based on a dubious birthright "because it belongs to me" and had a vendetta. She burned alot of people on the way and never questioned her actions. In the end that was the only thing keeping her together after she had gone too far. To delude herself she was still on the right path.
Who should have power and why? Targaryens had to come to an end, even though Jon would make a great king, it would have been a continuation of the Targaryen line and sooner or later history would repeat. Now we have a king who knows history itself.
Jon would have made a horrible king and I’m sick and tired of the writers through various characters telling me he would make a good one. Jon is a one track-minded soldier who’s a piss poor leader. He cannot keep the loyalty of anyone except wildings longer than two seconds. He doesn’t know how to coalition build or manage so he gets undermined every time.
I can't be the warden of the north.. I'm three eyed raven..
Oh.. the king of the kingdoms you say.. Why do you think I came all this way
I'm in !!
Ok🙄
murat ber So poorly written
Also; "-You're a Greyjoy, and you're a Stark.
one season later
- Now am i a mighty Targaryen? Is that official? Then I'm in... I've never been a Stark"
(Also who in their right mind would choose Bran? He has the most boring sto- oh what’s that Tyrion? Right. Carry on. I was an idiot)
The Proof Is Trivial Choosing a king based on having the best story is the kind of asinine idea you can only find in a Hollywood writers room.
The Proof Is Trivial while he’s in chains! That’s what got me. Whyyyy are y’all listening to a prisoner? Why does his word still hold weight??
"i did not watch a character grow and develop for years to completely be reduced to crazy targaryen genetics in the span of two episodes." EXACTLY
Exactly so so stupid, she is just mad for being mad
Do they say she's mad? Remember that's just the name of the fan theory. They didn't show us mad...they showed us a ruthless supremacist kill a lot of innocent people because she justified it as saving future generations.
Obviously she can't be wrong because she "knows what right is"
It was not craziness. She was at the mercy of Jon. She was in a weak position. She even "quoted Machiavelli" respect to be feared instead of loved.
Everybody loved Jon, she new it was a matter of time before either Sansa or anyone tried to remove her to install Jon with no consequence, because he was the rightful heir. Her plan was to induce fear to avoid a rebellion and keep freeing more people in other kingdoms, she said it literally. That way she had secured Westeros and the city burnt would have been seen an undesired effect of a liberator who was going to have in the end new people who would love her.
Americans did something similar in Hiroshima. The fear stopped the war, and later they recovered the love of the Japanese, who forgot it because the saw it as part of the war. She didn't show a single trace of craziness, but of a cold strategist that is cornered.
what about seeing her friend beheaded?
@ONI yea truu
This is so cathartic because legit...it's not even set up that's she's "crazy." Everything was set up so that she's traumatized and grieving and angry. Emotional does not equal "insanity." Everyone calling her the "mad queen" makes me cringe because it doesn't fit.
That is the way it appeared to me as well. I can't get on board with her being the Mad Queen because it was said that her father acted weird over time before going mad. The writers never actually establishes that with her character. It's just suddenly she is angry, ignoring the bell and being vengeful and unsympathetic to the innocent victims.
mad means : great anger, rage too.
Not just mentally ill on medical level
@@skywalker6648
Anger drives her, at a level more or less important , since she takes some power with Drogo. Her dragons are a symbol of her anger ( ... the fire).
It is a feedback against the fear, inferiority feeling, etc... she had all her childhood with her a**hole of brother.
@@jean-louispech4921 Wrong. In the show, it is not implied that her father was just a person that was "mad" at people. That is the definition you are thinking of. The British meaning is mentally ill. So they called him the "Mad" king because he was doing terrible things considered to be as a result of becoming mentally ill not because he was "mad" at someone. Look it up under Google.
@@jean-louispech4921 Wow, you really need to do your research. The Dragon connection runs in her family. That's how they gained rulership. The dragon is not just connected to her.
You can foreshadow all you want. You still need to make the events that lead to the foreshadowed outcome believable.
It seems believable to me
@@changuage Good for you. What part of it does actually look believable to you?
Event's like jorah dying, or missandei dying, or two of her dragons dying, or knowing that the people wouldn't except her as queen?
@@changuage You are a moron then. Nothing left to say.
@@zachhall5010 And yet none of those really lead to this as the outcome. Also the way they killed some of those dragons was lame and poorly done as well.
Even her father Aerys, you know, The Mad King, took many years and many different situations to get truly mad.
Exactly. She's the worst Targaryen as of yet for cartoonish reasons
Not to mention Aerys was paranoid. Meanwhile Dany had Varys actively trying to poison her. So am I supposed to believe she's evil for not sparing him after that?
Sky Dome she had mental problems from the beginning of the show. She did not even care about her brother being brutally executed. I’m sorry, but she could have defended him, Viserys could have been banished, become prisoner, whatever... but she did not even blink when he was being killed. This is a clear sign of her having mental problems :P there’s a difference between Arya and Sansa killing their enemies and Dany dealing with her brother, her own blood. Somehow I could not imagine Arya killing Bran for being a dick. Or Sansa killing Arya for threatening her life.
@@Abrams1985 Her brother was nice when they were younger. The whole "she didn't even look away or defend her brother when he died" is such a trash argument. It's her own blood, yes, but he threatened to kill her and her child, he sold her to a savage for an army and abused her. And if it still doesn't seem right for her to not feel anything for such a person, he told her he would let all the Dothraki and their horses rape her if it's going to get him the IT. She has no reason to cry for or defend an abusive pos like Viserys.
Exactly this 👆
This video is perfect. I'm not angry about her going mad, is the way they did it that angers me.
Rafaela Bastos this is exactly what I said. And it makes me mad people saying “oh you wanted a fairytale ending” this is Game of Thrones we watch because no one is safe. I expected Daenerys to die but for her to just lose it in two episodes wrecked my nerves. I’m SUPER invested in this show and it feels like a personal attack she’s my absolute favorite and I’ll forever love her lol
I'm angry at both since the writers kind of stuck with her being essentially good all these seasons with no build up because I truly think if they (D&D) changed her character before now and showed some crazy side to her, they would have lost viewers that were rooting for her to make to Westeros and take over the throne a long time ago. So that resulted in everyone feeling mislead all this time.
Exactly. I was completely for Mad Queen Daenerys but it just didn't feel like it made sense when you took into account the last seven seasons of development we sat through
Rafaela Bastos this video is wrong about “foreshadowing” it’s not foreshadowing when she says what she will do. This is clearly her mentality. There’s more info as well. Psychologically, all the evidence is there.
Psychologically you are wrong hun. Trust me . I had an hour long convo with my cousin ( who btw is a psychologist ) about Dany’s mental state in the previous seasons . Trust me , she was perfectly sane. Ruthless , yes but never mad .
'You will not have a happy ending if you are on game of thrones'. The only person without a happy ending was dany. Everyone else was happily ever after, specially the starks so...
@bigbenhoward at least they are alive
But you don't understand that Daenerys had to loose, because she is another power monger.
This is the unwritten of the Game of Thrones :
Everybody touching the iron thrones dies by violence! (all the kings and queens, and Daenerys)
Everybody who want conquering the iron throne by the violence dies! (like the Baratheon brothers)
Everydody who get power by violence or war dies! ( like Euron, Ramsay )
Then Daenerys does not make exception to this rules.
@bigbenhoward
John ends where he wants : to the north with his friends and his wolf.
Sansa becomes the Queen of the North, and then ends where she want, and will try to keep peace with surrounding lords ( and she will be a great diplomat ) . But the other members of her family are not here any more.
Arya, does what she want, she is drawing her destiny out of the lines drawn by others, in addition to the map, and she drops all the revenge thing.
Bran, yes lost his legs, his soul but ends as the king. For him there is more bitter than sweet.
bigbenhoward couldn’t have said it better myself. 🙏🏻
No one won, John looked absolutely miserable till the end save for a dog kiss.
@bigbenhoward
Hey this is not me , this is the back story of the saga! This is the message of GRR Martin.
If you think i am wrong name me someone who was on the iron throne or wanted to sit on it, and is alive at the end of the saga?
It is not about disney vilain, but about peoples wanting personal power, peoples corrupted by personal power. All GOT is about power ( and climate change ), the Game of Thrones is the Game of Power. The iron throne is like the ring in the Lord of the rings.
Then end of the saga, leads to a situation where the object of unlimited power is destroyed, the wheel is destroyed.
Some had to loose because GRR Martin has message about power, power corrupts and lead to the fall of peoples who get to high with the power.
And Daenerys was too far on the power level, she had to fall.
GOT is not a random story of kings, queens , knight, dragons, magic, undead, etc....
Yes John could have been the final king, but at least he doesn't die. But John lacks of wisdom, then he is not the best king.
And for breaking the wheel, you need to break the cycle made by hereditary power. Then it can't be the son of the legitimate king who must be on the throne.
And you forget that GRR Martin wanted a bittersweet end ( like for LOTR ), not a Disney end where everybody has a full happy and perfect end.
For John it is a bittersweet end. It is sweet but with a bitter taste because of all the sacrifices he made.
This video has left me feeling so sad for Daenerys Targaryen. Her character was written so poorly towards the end.
her character ? They screwed up the entire season with all characters
D GR
Yes but Daenerys’s was the main focal point of the ending & fucking up her character REALLY ruined everything.
It literally made Jon’s entire Targaryen association & character development POINTLESS, it made Tyrion look like a fool, it made Bran undeserving of being a king, it made Sansa look like nothing but a jealous bitch, it made Cersei & Jaimie look like some unimportant side characters.. etc. Fucking up Daenerys’s character was the catalyst of ruining the entire ending of the show. So sad.
@@Ahmed-pf3lg so true. The Cersei and Jaime part. They were literally reduced to side characters this season
The fact that she's seen as a main character also makes me very sad. :( The whole point of GoT/ASOIAF is that there *isn't* supposed to be a main character.
@@bimbunnny exactly!! The entire season 8, other important characters' storylines were ignored and sidelined for the sake of Dany's. *cough cough, Cersei, Tyrion, Jon*
The writers just wanted to get this over with so that they can do star wars.
Well, it's modern Star Wars' writing quality right here ^^
Because they're greedy and stupid.
Clear case of them looking elsewhere and not giving it their full attention and doing it justice. They've just done it half assed. Should have given the show the respect it deserves and handed over the final two seasons to someone else. Instead their self importance has destroyed the show.
yeah, thats what season 8 feels like, they went "yeah, we are done with this, wrap it up" HBO even offered them 10 episodes, and they said, "nah, we can do it in six"
@@Vorador47 They offered them 10 episodes AND an increase in budget per episode as well. There's literally no reason not to do it outside of "we don't want to do this show any more".
"If she listens to them, she loses. If she doesn't listen to them, then everyone's calling her a mad queen" Thanks for summing it up. This is why I'm frustrated with what they've done with her character.
I don't buy this as an argument against the writing. That neither the "right" nor "wrong" choice would lead to her victory seems pretty realistic--particularly because Dany's not trying to be good or do what's right: she's doing this to make the people revere her. And Westeros is in no state to revere a conqueror. A hero? Sure. Heroes give them hope. Heroes earn respect. Dany is a stranger riding a monster who expects respect via threat of conquest. The people of Westeros want stability, not revolution. They aren't slaves yearning to be freed. That she thinks her previous methods will work and that her previous actions count for anything to people who don't know what they are is a delusion. Of course she's in a lose-lose situation--she never learned Stannis's lesson: don't put the cart before the horse. I'm not saying it justifies the way the show got to this civilian murder decision--at all--but that Dany's arc would always, always, ALWAYS end in consternation over the Westerosi not loving her makes a damn lot of sense.
You really have no idea of the dynamics of the human mind, right? Really, it would surprise you how often this "Dany-suddenly-went-mad" happens in real life. Specially in high preasure and frustration situations like: in a few weeks you've lost two sons, you've lost two best friends, and your only and definitive life objetive is now suddenly and rightfully threatened. I would say the character's developement have been pretty realistic.
@@interregnum_ okay.
@@vmspinelli okay.
"(Her) Dragons burned very, very many people." I've just realized why this doesn't sit right with me. Prior to King's Landing, her dragons had burned, by my count (and discounting the Lannister army at the Goldroad), 10 people: Qartheen Warlock (forget his name), Kraznys, 4 or 5 Astapor soldiers, 1 Merenese 'noble', and 2 Tarlys. Can't count Drogon's kills in the fighting pit, as Dany wasn't controlling him then, and it's not fair to count those offscreen, as there's no way to fairly count those. And I'd be surprised if she was shown burning more than 50 Lannister soldiers in the battle of the Goldroad. Even taking those she burned by other means (Miri maz Dur, the Khals and their bloodriders), I don't think she even broke 100.
And we can't fairly include the Lannister army, as that was war, and it's fair for her to use her dragons in war. After all, remember when Tyrion used Wildfire to burn Hundreds, if not THOUSANDS, at the Battle of Blackwater Bay? No one called him mad for doing that, and death by Wildfire is MUCH worse than death by dragonfire, as you can at least put out dragonfire.
So, 10 killed by dragonfire, another 2 dozen or so by other fire. Spread over 6 years or so. Given the context, I find it hard to use this as justification for what D&D had her do at King's Landing.
Yeah he was incorrect in saying very, very many people. And he was speaking from starting AFTER crucifying the masters of Meereen. So really there was 1 master she burned in the catacombs. And the Tarly's. All other were obviously enemy combatants. She only used her dragons to kill someone not threating her (at that moment) twice.
This! I keep coming back to the dragons being locked up when Drogon killed the farmer’s child, but your point is much more encompassing. There was a problem I couldn’t quite put my finger on and you nailed it. Speaking of nailed, the idea that all of this could have been avoided if Jon would have just stayed with Danny is disgusting. Women goes crazy from grief and being dumped... urg! I don’t buy the foreshadowing theory but if you do - woman’s underlying craziness comes to the surface because of grief and being dumped. I’m clearly still pissed a year later.
I don't know how well you can put out dragon fire, but death by it is certainly quicker than by wildfire
Surprised if she burned more than 50 soldiers in the battle of the Goldroad? She easily burns that many on average in just a single shot!
@@SerbAtheist Actually, No. Watch the Behind-the-Scenes featurette, where the pyrotechnics guy EXPRESSLY says that the largest number being shown burnt was 20 (the opening attack shot). And I specified "Being Shown Burning," i.e., those she burned ON SCREEN. Yes, far more were burned off screen, but as I pointed out, that was war, so using her dragons was fair game, and since it's impossible to say whether she burned 5 or 5000 off screen, I don't include that in my count.
"Foreshadowing is not character development" so on point.
Our last hope:
www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers?webview=true&nightmode=true
@@kurdia100 - It was shock value, but it wasn't senseless. Poorly set up perhaps, but it does have a purpose in the story no matter how much you agree with that purpose.
I wrote a long ass comment explaining it please read it. People missing the poiunt entirely
people that argue that it was set up and it shouldn't have been surprising need to die. nobody thinks you're smart. you don't understand something that the rest of us don't. you're just a dick who likes to argue. this video nails it.
@@kurdia100 you guys are all forgetting this has been 8 seasons in the fuckint making. Its not 40 seconds they been building it up especially in the last 2 seasons. Her unstable emotional state. The fact that she may not be bad but she isnt an Angel and the lines of good and bad or not as clear cut. Im in the middle of fuck it maybe kings landing did need to burn who are we to say? Maybe it wasnt right and she violated. Who knows these things get complicsted and I think that was the point. Even some9ne who you think is good and has good intentions can loose it.
I’m not mad at dany going crazy. I’m mad that she went from „I fight for the people“ to „burn them all“ in a matter of 2 episodes. You could have emphasized the deaths of jorah and missandei, as well as the betrayal so much more. You could have had missandeis execution be a trigger event. You could have made jon‘s or even tyrions betrayal (the bells reminding her) into a parallel of her father.
Bit they didn’t. They just made her go crazy in 2 episodes. That’s just shitty writing.
But they did show Missandei's execution as a trigger point. They did show all of that you mentioned. I don't know about the whole "I fight for the people" thing. Even when she helped Jon and others fight the dead it looked like she was doing everyone a favor, you know. Like she had a choice to not do it. The thing is, if she fought for the people, this should have not even been a choice. She shouldn've made any conditions (bend the knee). They repeatedly show that her throne, her "destiny" is more important than "the people".
I think it could've been done better, but her actions seem in character for me. Then again, I never liked her character, so it's easy for me to talk. Where D&D failed is to make her fans accept Dany's demise, and that is bad writing, because you can't convince the audience.
why do they have to spell it out though? we all saw what happened. if it was you understand those circumstances, with a huge loss, betrayal, and threat of losing something you've wanted since the beginning.... how would you react?
Or they could have just had the surrender occur and Daenery accepts it, but then have most of the people supporting the devil they know, Cersei, over the scarier woman with the dragon who came from outside their country. Essentially, it's the next step from the Tarly episode. Those were soldiers/nobles who refused to accept her. Now the common people reject her in favor of someone she sees as worse than her. Now they've become her enemies.
Wit Compassion oh I get you. I’m with you. I was defending Dany on her reactions. She was grieving, not mad. Boy oh boy. I was wrong. They were really pushing her in that direction. The longer I sat on it tho, the more I understand that this is her end but it still feels rushed and unjustifiable for me. The way it comes across to me is they’re pushing this so Jon can sit on the throne. It’s sad.
Or even have Cersei bring civilians into the keep itself, have Dany make the choice to destroy the keep to kill her despite this, killing hundreds/thousands of civilians in the process, use the next episode with her as queen to call in lords to pledge themselves to her and she kills them too. Things like that would have still felt rushed to me but a lot better then what they did.
12:32 That hit me hard. That is exactly why I hate everything from season 7 to now. They set her for failure and exagerated other characters' attitude towards her just to destroy her character. They set her so that no matter what she would have done, she would have failed. They butchered her character and story line. I 100% agree with you. They needed someone to turn that way but were too lazy to come up with a believeable story. She will always be my favorite character in the show because I can't take seriously anything they made her do after the books ended. I hope GRRM comes up with a better development for her, even if he wants her to turn crazy too.
You are in my mind. I absolutely agree with you. She is my favourite too.
Me too.
if she had waited for the white walkers to clear it all for her. she would have finaly crashed the dead later when the realm emptied of these nobels tyran. Daenerys would have won it all.
@@hana.s.5203 And by the time they came to her, all the country would be undead and she heavily outnumbered. Even if she won, she would have ruled an empty land.
I think people still don't realize where "bad writing" comes into all this, so here's an example - Euron.
Euron and the fact that they didn't have enough wit or writing skill or whatever it is to make Euron a more badass character. I'd go with "not enough time". They couldn't squeeze in a more capable Euron, he is one of the most badass characters in books, in the show he's just a horny moron jumping around trying to fuck and kill most of living things around him.
So when he magically kills a dragon you have to make Danny and all around her stupid - "they forget about the Iron Fleet" - because AGAIN you can't squeeze a better explanation even though that explanation is right there - Euron is probably the most skilled sailor and captain in Martin's world, if ANYONE can make an ambush for a flying dragon by hiding a dozen or so ships in a bay somewhere, it should be him. But the writers didn't have enough skill to tailor Euron into the show better, so instead of "a badass most skilled captain in the world making a brilliant ambush and killing a not-fully-healed dragon" you get "horny asshole killing a dragon because everyone forgot about him".
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is bad writing 101.
What you didn't mention is also a fact that the moment they reached "Mad Queen" point, they changed logic of the series once again.
Scorpions and Euron's fleet? - useless now.
Aegon Targaryen plot - Let's forget about it.
Tyrion? - Smart again.
It makes it even more obvious that they gave her "Hiob's" treatment only for the sake of fake change. Worst kind of writing.
yeah they wanted to go that way and it didn't make sense, even for the other characters
What does _"Hiob's treatment"_ mean..?
I agree with you specially about "burning her opponents". In this series every single character would kill those who betrayed or wronged them.
ALL OF THEM, good old Jon and Tyrion included.
And then for Dany this is an explanation of her becoming the Targaryen Hittler.
And the last episode it is even worse. She only had two scenes, and in both of them she looks like a absolutist tyrant.
Where is the madness? Where is the rage? Where are all those feelings and derivative thoughts that led her to kill everybody in ep. 5.
Give me a character that I can feel something for. This was just confusing.
She has the personality of a tyran :
impulsive, authoritarian , can't stand contradiction, sense of greatness, lack of empathy, etc....
While she has no more to fight slave masters or the worst ennemy of the humanity to fight, the queen is naked.
fangurl33 well it is not about that. I don't want to love them. I want to feel something. Tyrion became to me the "well spoken" version of Jar Jar, I was just rolling my eyes everytime he gave "nice speech" with zero sense.
jean-louis pech yeah but that is my issue.
Even though I was team Dany, I knew in my heart things would go south for her character because that personality of hers. I liked her out of sympathy (muredered parents, abusive brother, sold betrayed, you know the story).
Prior to episodes 4-6, I was thinking, ok we do not have enough time let's see how they make her into Hittler.
Episode 4 and 5 made us believe that she was always crazy and they are driving her over the edge. Cool I was down. I really thought she was mounting Drogon laughing/screaming/crying. I thought her crazy personality was coming through and I was down to see the madness.
Then in episode 6 she is full control of her senses. She is a Tyrant that will go on liberating until we are all free and she rules us all. ok...
They changed the story line 3 times.
She can be absolutely bat shit crazy and a tyrant, she can have border line personality. But I didn't see it.
Her final dialogue with Jon is frustrating, he asks why you murdered inocent people that had surrendered and she doesn't really answer the question. We were set to believe that the big issue was that the city surrendered, and that was never truly adressed.
I am nit picking but c'mon...
@@jean-louispech4921 I believe your assessment of Dany is a misrepresentation of her character and evidence of the false attribution error. Lack of empathy? Then so do does Arya and other characters. In fact, she had a lot of empathy, but not for her enemies. The video points out those occasions, and if you watch the seasons again you will witness more of them. When Hizadher Xo Loraq pointed out to her that his father objected to the slave children being crucified and that he is just a son that wants to bury his father, Dany was moved: she showed empathy. In fact her very righteous anger finds its source in her empathy. One could argue that her empathy was one of her rarified traits, in fact. That is why she wanted to free the slaves in Essos and put off claiming the throne; also, so much for the impulsivity claim. In her righteous, she certainly would lose perspective, but she also listened to the opinions of others and would change her mind. Lack of empathy? Certainly not, but idealistic and at time ruthless in her punishment, yes.
This too is evidence that contradicts your claim that she is a person who "can't stand contradiction." Besides the examples above, Jorah changed her mind often, Ser Barristan, Jon are on that list. Some more evidence against impulsivity as one of her fixed traits is when she would not react to insults and pretended not to understand Valerian instead.
Regarding her "sense of greatness," she came by that honestly as she brought dragons back to the world and rose from nothing to greatness. Did it go to her head? They TOLD us it did in maybe episode 5 and certainly 6.
Her righteous anger and defence of the down trodden, and her sense of greatness or destiny was clumlsy flipped to Dany being self-righteous, using innocents as means to an end, lacking in real empathy for them, and a self deluded maniac interested in world conquest for the liberation of all of humanity, fulling her destiny. One can imagine how that progression could go, but it would require more than what was given.
As far as being an authoritarian, that is what a monarch is. There are political systems that curtail that form of rule such as forms of a republic, an oligarchy, see the Venetian Republic; or limited monarchy through a parliamentary system. It would have made sense in GOT if they introduced a 1688 English style parliamentary system with a constitutional monarchy: that would have been "breaking the wheel" not the lame nonsense we got.
@@albertou218 As far as I can tell, you're not nit picking but stated huge problems that are in evidence. I agree with your post-mortem.
You couldn’t have said it better. Dany is actually my favorite character and I agree with everything you said. I’m not mad at the “destination” they got us to but, rather, I am mad at the lack of journey to get us there. I hope George finishes the books.
There would have been so many small ways to do the journey better in the show ... one possible, simple idea: let her take on/keep the believe that "the people will fight for their rightful queen" maybe with the add on "if they see she has good odds of winning". Let her get more convinved of that believe by the slave revolt she successfully instigated (people suffering under tyrants rise to her cause even if she isn't their rightful queen). Then portray that for her, with that strongly held believe, the people from King's Landing are traitors by not rising against Cersei. Would not have taken much difference from how the show went and it was already established that Dany is incredibly cruel to people she sees as traitors.
Right, like the countless times she talked about burning cities to the ground and bringing barbarians with her to do it. That's character development!
Robert Moody you mean the one time. The one time she was starving in a desert with no other salvation bare the city that denied her.Yeah that definitely explains why she killed a million innocents for 40 minutes straight watching them run.
Robert Moody another thing she said she wouldn't be queen of the ashes and that shes not like her father 20 times more than she said she'd burn a city
I completely agree. Dany has her good qualities and choices as well as her bad ones. To have her become 100 % evil just isn’t satisfying. I hope she gets at least some sort of redemption in the final episode.
Next episode Jon kills his whole family because his Targaryen genes kick in
And then he kills everyone else while riding Drogon. In the aftershow, D&D justify this by reminding us that he once hanged a boy and this proved that he is crazy.
@@kandimba .....SUBVERSION!!!! Seriously, so sick of that being the go-to excuse these writers keep claiming in place of actual plotting and development because SHOCK/SUBVERSION is trendy.
difference is Jon isn't a product of incest like Dany is, the Targ madness thing is the result of their inbreeding
Well he killed Dany his only blood family so you were right.
@@vizioncs505 He's also related by blood to House Stark because his mother, Lyanna Stark, was Ned Stark's sister and aunt to Brandon, Arya and Sansa, so he's in fact as much the surviving Stark children's -great uncle- cousin as much as he was Daenerys' nephew.
Seasons 1 - 7: "The Night King does not sleep, he does not rest, he does not want to sit on the throne, he will not stop until this whole world is consumed. He is the real enemy. The only true war." etc. Foreshadowing an amazing war.
....
Season 8: "Stab, Stab."
So the only true war was against Cersei? I guess...
They should have tried to conclude the Night King storyline in season 7 and spent the entire season 8 focusing on Dany's descent.
I just wish they spend another year on writing and filming just to add 3 more episodes, using flashbacks to show dany's point of view, where she never cared about saving the innocents. Because she didnt. She only cared about her image and power. People saw her as a saviour, even though she only freed slaves because it would garantuee a bigger army. If the slave owners were the best way, she would have joined the slave owners. Her character arc shouldnt have revolved around saving innocents, but gathering the largest loyal army possible. She and Cersei shouldnt be different. Both of them manipulated the masses in their favor. That is what the final battle should have been about, 2 manipulating bitches fighting, let the best manipulative one win. Daenarys was obviously the best, but I am fairly certain that she starts burning down the city because the city doesnt comply. Which is a first to Daenarys, as she never won without the people being loyal to Daenarys. That would have been much better. Even if we saw it through the eyes of Bran, would have been so much better.
Predated O it would’ve made a lot more sense if Cersei’s forces in kings landing never surrendered in the first place! That may of been a more plausible way of justifying her actions
If they wanted to conclude the show with Daenerys and Cersei rather than the White Walkers, then all of season 8 should've been the fight against he Night King and all of a season 9 should've been Cersei and Daenerys, each with 10 full, proper episodes. Anything less and you're sure to truncate important and necessary moments of character development.
@@Predated2 how locking up her dragons comes to place in your theory? How does staying in Mereen to rule instead of carrying on the conquest make even sense in your theory? What would have happened if she had stuck to her plans and burn down Cersei 2 seasons ago when she was nowhere near ready to face Daenerys? Why did she even negotiate instead of taking everything by force since she had the power to do so? Why did she even go to the North to basically lose her dragons? Sure only evil people are capable of such feats...
@@neptune9360 She's not supposed to be purely evil. She's grieving and has always been capable of these things. In season 6 she's willing and ready to burn the slavers cities and "return them to the dirt" - how many innocent people die in that scenario? So here is my question: is that the idea of a hero? The only reason she doesn't do that is because Tyrion talks her out of it. Then, season 7, she takes no prisoners and burns a father and son alive for not bending the knee. Is that the work of a hero? She has VERY dark tendencies. Do you read the books? In book 5 she realizes that "Dragons plant no trees", she's already getting darker and will no doubt end up in this same place, burning down KL. She's a lot more grey than the GoT writers ever let her be because they wanted the fan-favorite savior to stay that way
I wish it was given more time to breathe, but there would still be so much whining since Dany would end up in a place people didn't want her to be. There's no scenario where people are good with this ending for her, because she's been built up in their own heads as their perfect savior queen with a heart of gold and they'd take nothing less for her. I always thought she was a mess in the show because she had these dark moments but they were never focused on nearly enough. I finally got to see the Dany I've wanted to see for a long time, and I wish we'd gotten more of it, with a slower set-up, because she's 100x more interesting than the ~breaker of chains snoozefest.
She wasn't even 'mad queen' for that long either... exactly 30 minutes in the last episode...
exactly! like she was literally saying "mercy is our strength" something like 10 to 20 minutes before burning everything down? how logical is that?
@@KannaAlperonathemaleficient
Lol she said that so your expectations could be subverted!
...
I think season 8 is the laziest writing I've ever seen on screen.
@@sophonax661 the fact that they made her say that is just making the writing even more illogical
D&D wanted it to just be done so they could go make new Star Wars movies
@@KannaAlperonathemaleficient
It is because the character is delusional.
It fits with the personality of Daenerys, where belief is stronger than reality, consistency of words does not matter ( just look to some great dictators/tyrants or religious leaders ).
It is typical of an authoritarian personality like Daenerys.
The main issue is that the writers forgot about the crucial "show don't tell" part of their storytelling. Yeah, there was some foreshadowing as you said in earlier seasons, but definitely not enough to create a believable descent into madness. You could make as much of an argument that Arya should have gone mad this season based off of her past seasons.
The way they tried to get us to buy into her being mad this season is by having other characters tell us that she is. We hear Varys and Tyrion questioning her sanity, and Arya and Sansa questioning her morality. But all we actually SEE of her in the first four episodes, is her doing exactly what her advisors tell her, putting the people above her quest for the throne.
Yes, she had a stone cold face when Viserys died. But Sansa smiled when Ramsay was brutally killed. Yes, she burned the Tarly's after they refused to submit to her power. But Jon beheaded Janos for the same reason. Yes, she persecuted the masters without a fair trial, based off of their actions as a group, not individuals. But Arya killed the entire Frey family/their soldiers for the events of the Red Wedding without a trial. Yes, she used her dragons to burn her enemies alive in the Loot Train battle. But Tyrion did the same thing at Blackwater. Robb Stark, who was one of my favorite characters, sent like 2,000 of his men to their deaths to win a battle. But that didn't make me think he was evil or crazy. Ygritte and Tormund helped murder an entire village of innocent people! But I still rooted for them as good guys.
I'm not saying that all of Dany's actions have been morally sound, because they definitely haven't been, but I don't think she particularly stands out as a character with a completely cruel, insane side in past seasons.
Arya sought revenge against particular people who had murdered her family. Sansa sought revenge against a serial torturer. (If being happy Bolton died makes one evil, color me evil.) Tyrion used fire against an active enemy, not one that had surrendered. Dany has repeatedly killed prisoners and consistently insisted everyone acknowledge her right to rule, even when it turned out she was NOT the heir to the throne. I would suggest to you that she is less crazy than she is evil, and the only difference is the SCALE of the suffering she is willing to inflict, now that she feels unloved in Westeros.
SettleNow did you read the comment not the citizens of king’s landing the loot train spoils of war where she burned her ENEMIES come on man read the whole comment don’t just drop your response
SettleNow you’re implying that Daenerys did not have any valid and/or heroically-presented reasons for murdering the people that she did. Arya and Sansa sought revenge, and so does Daenerys. She RETALIATES. The masters crucified 150 something slaves, so she crucifies 150 something masters. Supposedly all of House Frey murders Robb Stark and his family, so Arya murders all of house Frey (mind you, there’s a character that’s doing this in the books, and her actions are NOT presented as just or comeuppance at all, but a morally evil acts. Morally evil! To kill Freys!) The ONE time she wasn’t retaliating, it was with the Tarlys and there’s already reasons that have been said for why this isn’t a morally evil decision. Daenerys has never done a conclusively morally evil decision until this point, and escalation was NOT set up. Being vaguely unsettling to see her crucify masters (friendly reminder that there is no such thing as a “good slaver”) is NOT the same thing as seeing her massacre hundreds of thousands of people.
"Ygritte and Tormund helped murder an entire village of innocent people! But I still rooted for them as good guys. "
Ughhh
@@SettleNow The tarly even if they surrender were criminal who sacked the city of highgarden and steal the food of the citizen, letting them starve for the winter to come and also supported the tyrant cersei lannister just to become lord of the reach. They are also turncoats who will betray their leader when there is a better offer. Randyll tarly was not an innocent, he was not simply a soldier fighting for the wrong queen and was certainly not innocent.
Randyll tarly also shot down the option of being sent to the wall, refusing a peaceful conclusion.
my heart goes out to her. yes - she has always shown tendencies to fully go "miss mad targaryen", but she never did. she used her power to fight the evil instead, and to always stand up for herself. to follow her journey with balancing the madness that could lie somewhere inside her, but instead always turing to protect the weak in order to gain more power, has been what i love most about her story. that made her to one of the most interesting characters. to just kill her spirits in this way, and make her a full grown psychopath is not what she, nor the show, deserved.
i just watched the two final episodes and i have never felt more frustrated with any characters development/destiny ever. for me she will always be the queen she was before the writers decided otherwise.
Same. I choose to remember her as we knew her before the dumpster fire that was season 8.
@@PianoGirl091 word!
I have never seen those tendencies you speak of and that is the main problem with her sudden character turn.
@@skywalker6648 i was referring to the fact that she has been killing people in quite violent ways throughout the show, for instance slave masters, using her dragons or the dothraki to do so. so i always saw her as having tendencies to go mad, but she always "just" killed the bad guys (up to the dumster fire-finale, to use katherine anns words from the comment above). that's why it was heartbreaking and totally weird for me that she turned to kill civilians, and even children.
@@sandras2624 Lol, she has not been "killing people". If you think the slave masters were not murderous evil people, then you are delusional or you need to go back re-watch all the seasons.
Dany has never been a favorite of mine but good storytelling is extremely important to me. I think you summed up the issues regarding her arc, and to some extent Jamie's as well. The pacing for the last 2 seasons has been terrible. And the 'dumbing down' of Tyrion and Varys made little sense except as you explained here. Well made video. Thanks for sharing it.
Tyrion was no longer a character in the show after season 4. He became a plot device. His entire purpose in the show, starting in season 5, was to destroy Daenerys. All his advice and plans continually made her weaker and weaker until the mad queen moment. She should have fired him after the keep slavery for 7 years fiasco in Meereen. But after that for no reason she made him her hand. Why? To put him closer to her to keep destroying her. His plans in season 7 destroyed many of her allies. Then he moronically trust Cersei to have them go get a wight. Which led to Viserion's death, which allowed the NK to destroy the wall and march south, which led to Jorah's death. She inexplicably kept him as her hand. They banked on the audience not seeing this because we all saw Tyrion as smart. His idea to leave Daario in Meereen also meant one less person who loves her in Westeros. And him telling Varys about what Sansa told him before telling her made her lose trust in everyone around her. His stupid plan to trust Cersei AGAIN led to Daenerys seeing Missandai beheaded. That's some pretty cheap "writing."
@@jonathanblaze1648 The "keep slavery for 7 years fiasco in Meereen" was a good idea though, the problem was that the masters were already convinced that they should and could kick out Dany so such measures would never work.
thank you :)
But he needed to be dumb because plot 😒
Thank you! I've been telling people Danny's transformation wasn't handled correctly and they just scoffed at me with "there was foreshadowing". Glad to see I'm not alone in my opinion.
yup, thats an echo chamber... the net is full of them now... it distorts things.
@Vitani Schreibt I don't know, I was thinking that dany would go mad long time before. The way she handled death of people, in opposed to other characters like Jon was disturbing from season 1. The way she talked to her advisors in season 6 was almost like joffrey was talking to people. But yes, the way it was written was not really good. I mean it's not easy to write something like that, especially in such a small amount of time. I am expecting better writing from George, but he has more time to do it properly and more space.. The first three seasons were best in my opinion but for some people felt long and it was because of the difficult character developments.
The writers are definitely more of set up and pay off approach..
Vitani Schreibt they definitely could of handled it better there is no denying that. It has foreshadowing aka the ground work but then the groundwork needs to be put into practice. I think they wanted to wrap up the show while they had arguably the biggest audience possible.
This has led to them having to rush the final season as this could of been 2 maybe 3 seasons with the battle for winterfell being at the end of season 1 and the battle for kings landing being end of season 2. As for the 3rd season you could of had jon and an alliance betraying dany and the final battle occurring end of season 3. The writing only seems poor because there is no other way they could of taken us in a journey. I have enjoyed this season visually and yes there are parts that are unrealistic but come on. Harry Potter made mistakes like the coffee cup which sparked outrage. The unrealism is no more unreal than the fact there is dragons, a king who can bring people back from the dead and a three eyed raven who can morgue into animals and see any bit of history.
It does baffle me that people can hate it this much. I’m sure D&D would of loved to play this out over 3 seasons and make much more money but in the end HBO want to capitalise on a market and they’ve done so. I would say HBO is to blame for the downfall of this show.
I will add that they had already decided they want to create prequels which will bring in an even bigger audience and they want to do it while the show is at the peak of popularity. What they failed to understand was rushing an ending people have patiently waited for will only decrease popularity.
well whenever an opinion need a brain, there will always be many people who point at you telling you don't see thing, while they're being blinded by fangirlsih egoes
"this is about a character being screwed over by writing designed to see her demise" THANK YOU. THIS.
They did the same with Stannis in season 5, that's when I knew they couldn't write this on their own
She had a choice like all the rest. To not play the game of thrones. For all the fanboyism we tend to do with the different houses. The message of the show and especially the books has always been: The game of thrones is evil. It either kills you or turns you into a monster and many times both. It's why I'm certain if Jon survives the last episode, he will reject the throne.
@@SuperHipsterGamer totally missed the point of the complaints tho. But ok lol
@@blackdragon6 Which one? Certainly not the one that said Daenerys was given an impossible situation where she could only fail. She actually could succeed, by not going for the throne. Litterally been the entire point of the story, but I guess the video creator missed it.
@@SuperHipsterGamer Have to agree; This video made me remind myself again why I thought the shows s1--s2 did better with many characters (definitely the starks) than the books: in the books it's obvious they are going to be screwed by the writer, as that's the only thinkable reason they make such stupid/naive/ignorant decisions with full conviction while we are told they are decent, educated and/or clever, their actions don't reflect it; I now fully expect the books Dany to show similar flawed reasoning in the books if they ever come out (after all, she's been often ambling about outside of Westeros, in a holding pattern until her real endplay can come there for quite a few books now).
Daenerys didn't deserve this kind of end and the fans didn't deserve this kind of sloppy story telling. You explained it all perfectly. This video needs to be sent to HBO and the writers! I feel bad for all of the cast and crew that worked so hard only to have all of that work be forever overshadowed by the writer's incompetence. They definitely should remake episodes 4-6.
Daenerys deserves this kind of end, because she is power hunger.
If you think that she could end on the iron throne, you understand nothing about GOT.
I never said I think she should end up on the iron throne. Where did you get that from? I said she didn’t deserve this kind of end. I felt that the story was rushed compared to the well-adapted story telling throughout all of the seasons that made the series so great. I do believe that she should die, i just wish that it would have been in a different way where we could see her progressing turn to madness before her inevitable end. That is just my opinion. You are entitled to your own as well. I love and respect GOT and have been a fan since the beginning.
@@mayumv1
Ok
well i put a " if " before her on the throne. Then it does not apply to you.
jean-louis pech What's the problem if she ends up as a queen? The whole Starks family got what they wanted, and any other character in Game of Thrones, why only when it comes to Daenerys, you say this is Game of Thrones, not Disney World. Really !!?? Do the rules of Game of Thrones that no one gets what they want should apply only to Daenerys, but the rest of the characters should live a happy life? How nonsense.
Remake episode three as well. How anyone thinks that killing the true enemy in that episode when there’s still three episodes left to use him is a good idea is beyond me.
They tried to Heisenberg her in 5 episodes 🤦♂️
This.
Lol that's actually a good analogy. Breaking bad is a prime example of how to properly do a character shift from good to evil.
Samuel McLeod game of thrones got nothing compare to breaking bad one of the best series ever made
@@hanna4927 if this season was handled well, they could have become equals
@@Abhinav-tk1bt that's because the creator oversaw everything with a beginning, middle and end. Here, the creator was involved in beginning, most of the middle and provided no end...
i believe she will end up like this in the books, but the show did not properly show it
Exactly. My problem isn't the destination of her character, it's that previous seasons do not support it in any way.
I think pretty much everyone feels that way. It's not a problem that she went crazy, it's the pathetic, stupid path (is two steps considered a path?) to get there.
Plus, in the books her character development is already so much stronger for this to happen.
Yeah, I think the book will also align more with the prophecies that George introduced all those years ago. I think we're going to get Jon beating the N. King, Dany going "mad," Cersei getting killed by brother, etc. but it will all be developed and tied into the other events not introduced in the show at all such as Young Griff, etc. Can't wait for Winds of Winter! All that being said, as some popcorn entertainment, I don't hate this season. Extremely rushed with bad writing, etc. but great cinematography as usual accompanied by some powerful performances sprinkled here and there (Tyrion and Jaime in ep.5).
We will never know what really happened behind closed doors, but G.R.R. Martin has hinted many times he said to the showrunners you shouldn't do X because then Y wouldn't make any sense and they didn't listen.
You referred to Robert Baratheon as Bobby B. I'm liking this video based solely on that
on youtube type in medieval land fun-time world. Its the bad lip reading guys, such a good trailer. would rather watch a film of this than season 8
I rewind a couple times to make sure I heard right
This is a man that doesn't kneel
Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B Bobby B
I was thinking the same thing lol
Excellent! And THANK YOU for “Foreshadowing is NOT character development.” It’s been so frustrating seeing people justify the twist with “foreshadowing”
And then they go on to name ridiculous things that still doesn't justify her change of character.
@@skywalker6648
There is no character change.
There is only a level of expression of anger different from usual time.
We speak about a woman who makes burning alive a man by dragon even if he is innocent of the crime he is accused .
A woman who take delight to the idea of the screams of a woman burned alive.
A woman leading an army of barbarians raping women, stealing, killing men in armors of steel and destroying their stone house.
etc....
@@jean-louispech4921 What about all the great things she has done. Do you suddenly have amnesia to that?? PLUS, All the people you claimed she was forced to execute were all reasonably justified. For ex. The slavers she burned killed innocent children and nailed them to crosses. They didn't want to cooperate with Tyrion in formerly Slavers Bay. But I guess you forgot that too. The Tarly's (the father whom asked Jaime point blank if he wanted him to torture the soldiers so they would take orders) Yeah, that great guy was given a choice but he chose to be executed. All of this way better than what all of the other characters did in their positions of power like Ramsey, Cersei, Joffrey, Stannis, Rob, Ned, all of which killed at times without no option for anyone so you have Dany's character so wrong. In fact, she could have done way more damage with three dragons but she tried to be patient and just with her enemies even as they killed all her supporters. From being a victim to being empowered she was a great warrior Queen. At least that is how she has been portrayed until the goofy writers decided in S8 E5 to change her character and never said she was mad or anything. Never explained nothing, just one stupid thing after another with all the character arcs in the end. For ex. why make Jon a Targaryen, also, NK turns out wasn't much of a threat after all, Cersei dying under bricks, etc. Regardless you can't defend this sudden dumb decision to change Dany's character direction or the whole season for that matter. So just stop.
@@skywalker6648
Oh yes burning a live a guy while he can be innocent of the crime, is a very great thing. She was not forced to execute him, she has only do it because she wanted it for ruling by fear.
Burning alive a woman raped by barbarians, and expecting her to scream while burning is a great thing.
Ned acted just because of duty, never taken pleasure to what he did, and had nothing personal.
Mixing Ned with Ramsey and Joffrey or stannins the guy who burns his daughter, is the proof that you have no real argument, you are unable to analyze the subject.
At least you put Daenrys at equality with Cersei, Joffrey, Stannins and Ramsay... it is a beginning.
Sorry but the guy she burned alone was not taken prisoner while killing one of her supporter, but just was selected randomly among masters.
Nothing different than nazis taking peoples randomly for being executed after that a German soldier was killed by resistant. It is the same logic, the same set of mind.....
And after you are surprised that she became the mad queen.....
You are too stubborn for understanding that there is no change of character.
In fact you don't show any understanding of her character. So just stop.
@@jean-louispech4921 Sansa delighted when she had Ramsey's hounds to eat him alive. Is she mad? No. Arya delighted when she butchered all the Freys in that room, specialy when she slit Walder's throat. Is she mad? Not at all. I know they weren't innocent people but Daenerys hadn't killed any innocent people at all, until season 8.
I would watch a video of all of the characters that you listed at the beginning. These videos are so well done!
thank you!
A video giving Jaime's arc the same level of scrutiny would be great.
Same
what a bad video. sorry... but you didnt understand the seasons before
Agreed!
Emilia Clarke doesn't like how Season 8 turned out to be as well. All her GOT interviews are warnings of how bad season 8 is.
she doesn't really say that though.
@@countercurrents8585 because she was tasked to 'promote' season 8 during interviews of course she wouldn't plainly admit it. You could read between the lines after she responds. Even D&D knows how bad it is. What do you think would be the reason why they're gonna be 'far from the internet' after the season is over - - until October 2019?
@@countercurrents8585 if you watch the interviews, she does.
She has a new interview with the newyorker where she basically says this is the only way her character’s journey and the show at large could have ended
@@InfinityBladeFans Damage control, but since it's supposedly how the books will end.
Just as Dany "forgot" about the Iron Fleet, D&D also "forgot" about every viewer outside the Burlington Bar.
Is that the bar that plays GOT episodes and then films people's reactions? That always seemed so fake and over the top to me.
@@BasicShapes Correct. You've got it.
I would hate watching it there, they stay doing the most
They get so loud that they miss a lot of lines.
rivercitymud ain’t that the damn truth!
Wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said. Daenerys has always been my favourite character so it was hard to watch her change in Season 8 which is arguably one of the weakest seasons because absolutely everything was so rushed. From the killing of the Night King (absolutely anti-climatic) to Bran doing nothing since season 7 and then becoming king, to Jon's revelation that had no importance other than creating a fight with Dany, Tyrion and Varys being reduced to utter idiocy, and Euron being almighty for no reason...... there are so many things we could point out in Seaon 8 that went wrong but Dany's downfall is certainly the biggest disappointment for the reasons you have wonderfully outlined here.
I think Lady Olenna summed it up best in the conversation she had with Daenerys at Dragonstone:
"I have outlived many lords of Westeros because I ignored them. The Lords of Westeros are sheep my dear. Are you a sheep? No. You are a dragon. Be a dragon!"
If only Dany had listened to that advice, she may well have ended up on the throne - sanity and armies in tact!
Exactly. And what was that speech even about? Yes, it set up the very next battle...but then Dany went for logical and rational, and totally forgot about being a dragon.
Then when she tried to unleash her strength and her rage, her male advisers shouted her down and the viewers were clearly supposed to believe she was going crazy...rather than listening to Lady Olenna.
I think the symbolism of the dragon and the idea of uncontrolled rage versus insanity just completely fell apart at the end.
Hell, Dany wasn't even my favorite character but I had hard time watching her "going mad" in last 2 episodes.
People come up with the worst explanation to defend that scene. There are ppl who have audacity to say that her madness was there since Season 1. That's is D&D feeding bullshit and they ate it up.
Jon Snow is going to go mad in the next episode and start murdering scores of innocent men, women and children. If you didn't see it coming, you haven't been paying attention. They've been setting it up for years!
Jon has suffered so much loss; his parents, his brothers, Robb and Rickon, the woman he loved, Ygritte, his friends. He's been betrayed, by his brothers of the Night's Watch - now, even by his family! Everyone has a breaking point, and Jon's gonna snap. And Jon's always been bloodthirsty! He beheaded Janos Slynt, then he executed Alliser Thorne and his fellow conspirators including a kid named Olly, he's killed countless men in battle - he even killed one of his own men in the last episode! And his grandfather is the Mad King himself so it is in the family!
Yeah, it wouldn't be out of character for Jon to kill random innocents, because context means nothing. Jeez, don't you get it?!
Except Jon Snow has a hybrid vigor due to introduction of the healthy Stark genes and was raised in the context of a family. Daenerys' parents were brother and sister...and she spent her most formative time amongst a Dothraki horde who murder people with impunity.
@@yablabo Jon didnt pet his direwolf when he sent him away. Thats enough evidence for his madness.
R8Zio haha! Okie dokie!
@@yablabo that's not how genes work. He could be even more mad than danny although he wasn't a product of incest. There is something called dominant and recessive genes (traits). Don't get me wrong, Jon is not mad but just because he wasn't a product of incest like danny was, doesn't make him immune to madness
Milica Brajkovic it was a joke.
The difference between insane & ruthless:
Insane: Mad King Aerys wanting to blow up the city with wildfire
Ruthless: Tywin Lannister plotting to take down any threat to his family
You do understand she is insane not ruthless.
The difference between insanity and ruthlessness is simply intelligence. The Mad King was also ruthless and cruel, but he used cruelty in a stupid way that inspired an uprising, rather than submission. Tywin, however, uses cruelty carefully and sparingly to inspire fear and submission, and then milks the fuck out of it for all it’s worth (The Rains of Castamere).
@@monbjra But that's the point. They've never shown her to be insane before in the show. You can't make the jump from ruthless to insane just with a snap of your fingers. It takes time and a great deal of trauma and development-foreshadowing isn't enough to satisfyingly convey that transformation.
Exactly.
She has always been ruthless in her revenge and she has often reminded me of both Stannis and Tywin on that aspect.
@@Kira1Lawliet She said she would burn the slave cities to the ground to Tyrion "root and stem" in season 5 or 6 after getting attacked. Tyrion had to change her mind. She was crazy alright.
They really just want to wrap up the show as fast as possible. Sad how they messed up one of the best TV shows in history.
they should have never started the project if that was the case!!!
Ash Green the writers honestly just want it to be finished so they can fuck Star Wars next
@@TheJester39 nice bait shitlord
@@TheJester39 wow the mad king, ops, the mad idiot is awake
@@TheJester39 Lol, you just want to believe it's still good because you liked the other seasons and the thought of this season being utter shit would kill you, well guess what, it is, David and Dan were straight out lazy and just wanted to get it wrapped up as soon as possible because instead of spending time on it and writing a great script, they just wrote whatever and thought 'this will do'
Still don't buy the argument that "seeds were planted." many other beloved characters don't flinch when killing, does that mean they're crazy too? The twist in no way shape or form makes sense
I think the seeds where planted at least from reading the books because to keep power and rule she keeps compromising her own morals and its is a visible downward trend. Her slowly becoming evil was a theory even before the tv show because the hints were there. Its not that she kills because thats normal in the world its that she has shown the she will change her morals and view point to keep power this happens very very slowly but if it keeps happening then it is very believable that she could end up a tyrant. So i do think the foreshadowing was there but not the actual character development to get to this point.
@Amelia C. But even in the books she still does burn alive a woman for wanting to avenge her rape. She till crucifies hundreds of nobles in revenge for crucifictions the majority had nothing to do with. She still agreed to torture a little girl because she was in an emotional state.
"Daenerys - One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.
Hizdahr - At your command?
Daenerys - If need to be.
Hizdahr - And how many will die to make their happen?
Daenerys - If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason.
Hizdahr - Those men (in the fighting pit) think they are dying for a good reason.
Daenerys - Someone else reason.
Hizdahr - So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don’t know their own minds, but you do?"
you're welcome
@@dungaaahhh5725 I mean, yes. Her reasons are true, and theirs are false. Things can be correct and incorrect you moron.
@@TacticusPrime nice to know that some people still think that mass crucifixion is a good thing
Jesus. You explained this perfectly. I've been saying more or less the same things since Sunday. What a waste of a character arc
It's so mindnumbing that most of my friends actually think this season of the show is actually good. I don't wanna come across as a dick but I kinda have to when I express my extreme frustration with the way the story has been sinking into the depths of an average t.v. show with a high budget
They established her as ruthless, they didn't establish her as Hitler.
I couldn´t agree more. I am an avid watcher of the show aswell as reader of the books and this you video perfectly describe my feelings regarding this season and Dany in particular. It is so freaking forced.
@@ofon2000 I still like the show, but I do feel like I went from reading a great novel to reading the Cliff notes about a great novel.
@@Druttentjock Dany previously announced her intention to take control of Westeros by burning villages (civilians) to the ground. There are many examples of dictators in history who show a kind face to their followers until they finally gain power.
Dany is the inverse of the character Snape from Harry Potter. She was presented as an empathetic leader in the beginning of the story but on closer examination exhibited many dangerous and tyrannical characteristics. She did not develop from an empathetic character into a mass murderer, because this truly would make no sense within the context of the story. Instead, she was *always* dictatorial and obsessed with acquiring power, with very little concern for the well-being of others outside of a small circle.
We need a video about Cersei. She went from incredible to pathetic and they managed to do it without even giving her almost any screen time this season, that's impressive
Cersei has always BEEN pathetic. That's the point of her character. None of her her ploys ever benefit her in the way she wants. She wants to shut up Ned? She accidentally gets him executed and starts a war that ends with King in the North. She wants to dishonor Sansa? She accepts Margaery whose grandma kills Joffrey. She blames Tyrion without proof? She ends up getting Oberyn killed, which leads directly to Myrcella's death because she was a ward of Dorne, AND she drives Tyrion to Daenerys. She wants to get rid of Margaery and the Faith? She ends up killing Tommen and becoming a Queen no one loves. She wants to weaken Dany by double-crossing her? She ends up infuriating Daenerys into burning down King's Landing, leading to her death. None of her ploys have EVER paid off. Tywin and Tyrion both tell her again and again she's not as smart as she thinks she is. She's an idiot too big for her britches, they show couldn't slap you in the face more with it. She's an incredible character because she's interesting, but she's not an incredible planner, leader, queen, or mother.
@@boohoo723 This is a pretty good assessment. I'm disappointed with the circumstances of her death (which were underwhelming) but not how she responded to it--that felt in character.
Jaime's arc was such a mess I wished the Night King had killed him.
EXACTLY!!
I think she was always pathetic. She was often bark and no bite. She struck me as the perfect example of a NPD person in too much power. Then when she finally gets true power, she has too much insecurity and delusion to use it properly. I think her end was unsatisfying because she's one of the worst people in westeros, but her as a character I feel fit perfectly. When she had no one to defend her anymore, it showed how powerless and pathetic she had always been.
I'm also not really mad about Jamie. She was always a vice to him or a drug he could not get away from. Sadly parallels real life for a lot of people who fall back into a drug even after being sober and seeming to change.
But the favoring of Arya with the fake out deaths was annoying and Daenerys is ruined as a character.
The directors didn't want to continue so they dropped the ball. But it's HBO's fault for not hiring new directors as they wanted more seasons.
@@vixxcelacea2778 I'm nod mad about cersei not being powerful or anything. What i'm calling pathetic is her writing. Her character was always this controlling cruel villain that did everything from a place of fear, and everything always backfired. That's an amazing character. And everything she did only fed to her growing desperation. I wish that as Cersei got turned queen we could explore her unraveling, that power enabling all of her fear and desperation, a lot of mistakes and all. What we got was a lukewarm distant textbook villain, no exploration of her newfound queendom, no exploration or conflict of any kind with the energetic euron. It was all very dissapointing. That's what i'm calling pathetic.
the weird irony is that they wanted to make her the evil one and the Starks the righteous ones. Instead fans felt exactly the opposite and so ended up having position against the writers. A mark of bad story telling.
Maybe it’s the mark of a stupid fandom?
@array s Must also add, people liked the Targaryen girl and hated the writers.
i noticed this too. they tried so hard with the Starks. favoritism.😂
Incompetent it’s stupid because you’re not really supposed to view any of the characters as evil or righteous, with a few exceptions like Joffrey and Ramsay. That’s very black and white thinking and the characters aren’t supposed to be perceived that way, neither were they portrayed that way.
Lam rof This is honestly such a underrated comment
I've never understood why people are so down on Daenerys not for executing people, but by using her dragons to do it. They claim it is horrific and a horrible and painful death, but I would refute that. Being blasted by dragonfire at point blank range with flames that can melt Valyrian Steel will certainly kill a person in an instant.
When Ned Stark says that the person who passes the sentence should wield the sword everyone thinks he's being honourable when he then lops a good man's head off with a giant Valyrian Steel sword - Dany does not own or wield a sword; as Mother of Dragons her weapon of choice is a dragon, and it is only fitting that she employ it thus. The fear of being consumed by dragonfire incites a healthy respect, and I would only condemn her for unjust execution (like Rickon... I mean Dickon (snigger) Tarly's, not for her choice of the method so long as that method is not itself inherently cruel. And being roasted by Drogon would certainly be scary (until it happened) but the insta-death makes it no more cruel than beheading - which is far less swift and reliable as Drogonbreath, as Theon's horrible butchery attempting to execute the castellan of Winterfell demonstrates.
i think her using drogon as a weapon was the writers' (both grrm and d&d) way of showing she's not far from her father. when starks confronted aerys, he captured them and challenged them to a fight. but instead of a oberyn martell vs mountain style of battle aerys tied them up and burned them alive thus saying "fire is the champion of the house targaryen".
totally agree. It's the one thing I wish he addressed in his commentary, but like many people, he is biased. It's medieval times. Beheading is horrific. King's landing was decorated with the heads of traitors. The Boltons flay people. He also mentioned the crucifixion (fair enough) but not that it was a literal eye-for-an-eye, not some sadistic vengeance. A literal payback is typical for the time period and the world we've come to appreciate as GoT. The bottom line is nothing about her actions was unusual; execution, sadism, darkness has been in the hearts of all GoT characters, creating an environment that is interesting and human. Cersei killing hundreds with wild fire. Tyrion using wild fire to win the war. Jon executing a boy(!). Sansa watching Ramsey be eaten alive smiling. Arya slitting a man's throat after feeding him his children - whom she personally carved. In reality, it's not Dany's brutality that stands out, but her occasional threats to take what was hers with fire and blood. Cersei also talked about how the familly is the only thing that matters, yet her obsession to retain the throne and manipulate the world was never labeled a sign of madness. Regardless, even Dany's most exaggerated determination is hardly foreshadowing. Let alone character development.
Thank-you. Melissandre used witch craft. in fact, she birthed a shadow that killed Renly but no one mentions that either.
@array s It's the execution of Dickon Tarly that was unnecessary. Tyrion had it right, he was a foolish boy who wanted to stand by his father. He should have been thrown in the dungeons for a few days to reflect. Once his father was not there he had no need to throw his life away in a foolish gesture to look good in the eyes of Tarly Sr - and the memory of his father being burned alive would surely have had a salutary effect.
There was no good reason for Daenerys to have ignored her Hand and burnt Dickon - and it is now evident (if it wasn't then) that this jarring scene was written entirely to justify the abrupt switch from Danerys from heroine who frees the poor and saves the world from the Army of the dead into Lady Hitler.
array s because they betrayed their liege lord & sided with his murderer. House Tarly is pledged to house Tyrell & Cersei blew up house Tyrell. That would be like if the north sided with the mad king & Rhaegar after lord rickard & his son were roasted alive. They marched on high garden & killed her most powerful Westerosi ally lady Olenna they deserved to burn!!
Thank you for this.
She is my favorite character, and it hurt too much seeing such a poor sloopy work upon her, but even so, Emilia did an astounding job with what she had, no matter how much she disliked it.
Agreed! Her acting has always been phenomenal. The cinematography was incredible as well.
@From a Bicycle seat Yeah, appearently now that some people saw her going like this, you suddently have an huge number of people hating on her...
I just really really enjoyed the character from the start, and even though TV series onlies may still feel the same, for me reading the books, seeing her story from the start, her thoughs, doubts, fears and hopes... this is not a kind of character that you can just flip 180º like that, you need proper time to show the descend into madness, sadly, despairing but properly done.
Where's the evidence she didn't like it? She never said she disliked it. She specifically said she stood by Daenerys. And that while it made her sad, she believed this was the only way to end her character. Tired of people lying about what the actors feel about their own storylines. It's bullshit. She never said she disliked it. Just that it would be divisive.
@@Playcool18 as someone who only watched the show, I agree completely. It's not that I couldn't see her as a good queen or as a mad queen, it is the fact that they didn't get her there naturally. They just dropped her insanity on us.
If she just destroyed the red keep it would have been fine.
Or even better destroy the red keep BUT by doing so she unittentionally sets off wildfire caches around the city.
I thought of that theory while watching it too. Then she would still be the Queen of Ashes based on an impulsive move, but not a monster.
@@BobsiPringlez Yeah, all the time i saw Dany as being impulsive. And "burning everything" being the ultimate bad impuls would be kinda reasonable but that would still need time and events that actually trigger this kind of behavior. Not some ringy dingly bells of surrender.
This would be my version of it: Rhaegar would still live and being shot down just when she attacks Kings Landing. You can hear the people of KL cheering his death. She sees that the people, which she wants to save, hate her Children and enjoy it when those are killed. That would put her in full Tilt-Rage and then she would burn them all.
Tbh both of these are much much better
@@niedermitderjagd1968 yass, that sounds so much better tbh
@@niedermitderjagd1968 that would have been good
That advisor point was incredible. Never heard anyone talk about that and I didn’t think of it. I just thought it was dany torture porn but didn’t develop the thought further
Yes, I loved that point too. I had a sense about it, in how Varys just suddenly turned against Dany and started behaving treasonous all clearly when we all know Varys is supposed to be a discreet man(Master of Whispers). And Tyrion failing in like all the decisions ever since they came to Westeros and simply saying sorry. Even Jon, who usually confronts matters, he's a hero and a diplomat. And here he was, not confronting Dany at all except "You are my queen". Even in Episode 4, I was like why is Tyrion so retarded as to leave Dany lonely and have fun with Jamie and co? Where is the friendship between these two? And why is Missandei not around her in that celebration when she is feeling lonely? Where the hell is Missandei off to when her Queen is attending a meeting in this strange land? She's supposed to always be beside her! Again, that was the writers forcing us into believing that she's getting lonely and insane.
And then, they literally have Varys say- "I worry about her state of mind"..
This was the writers subtly pushing us towards believing in the retarded Mad Queen narrative. I just knew it when Varys said that, that something stupid was coming up.
ankit sinha I agree the only reason I knew they were setting Danny up to be the mad queen was because of Varys hinting at it
@@ankitsinha5365 ...Jon never confronts political matters. He's always stepped aside and said I don't want it almost immediately when anyone suggests he take power. Dany is the ultimate lack of having to take responsibility which he never wants to have.
What they made with Dany made me so angry. She was such a beautiful, deep and complex woman. Cruel to her ennemies, but kind with her people. That was what made me love her. Strong, merciless, but yet kind and really touching in her youth. Sometimes we could see (in the first seasons) that she was simply a young girl with power. Her going mad was so poorly written. And her death, even if visually beautiful, was so bad. She died like that, no last word (as if you die instantly from a stab), no "Dracarys", nothing. Not even a scene of her flying away with Drogon as if it didn't matter. She died, without dignity. She just died, and when I cried, it was out of frustration, disappointment. She went from slave, to Khaleesi, to Queen to die like that ? She deserved to die in flames, she deserved to die like a dragon.
What I felt, even if it is pure saltiness, is a feeling of unfairness. It was to me, so unfair that she got that poor writting just for the sake of the Stark House. I'm unsatisfied with that happy ending, and yes, to me it is a happy ending. The only sad ending here is for the people who spent YEARS (characters and fans included) cheering for Queen Daenerys, mad or not. Jon is alive, reunited with Tormund and Ghost, Arya goes Dora, Sansa becomes Queen in the North, and Bran becomes King of the Six Kingdoms. That ending was such a Disney-ish. I got so disappointed. I wished Mad Queen Daenerys reigned longer over Westeros. I wish the died with her dignity.
I wish her tragedy was more epic. Hers was just... lame...
But lol, she didn't have to go mad (or angry) at all since there was never any indication of this being expected from her character in all the seasons until now.
This is pretty much what I’ve been thinking for the last few days. If you wanted to have Dany go mad don’t jam it all into 2 episodes, spread it out over a season or two. People keep say “oh she’s always been a psycho who’s done horrible things”. But they forget that those people were enemy leaders and soldiers, not innocent civilians who she just randomly opened fire on. You can’t just build a character up for 7 seasons and then say one episode is enough to make her do a 180. Especially when they dumbed her down and buffed her enemies in order to cause the events that brought about her descent into madness. Somehow everyone just forgot about the iron fleet? How the hell did those ballistas hit rhaegal, he was a moving target hundreds of feet in the air. Why’d the Golden company fight for cersei in the first place, they should’ve known she had dragons! Season 8 feels like that paper you write last minute because you spent your weekend partying instead: it’s rushed, its hard to read, and it doesn’t make sense. Because at that point you’re just trying to get some of the points available, not get the A.
The thing is if she go mad earlier, she wouldnt end up with Jon fighthing the undead, Tyrion a Varys would have leave her. Everything would be different .
Luca Ucronia I’m not saying they should’ve made her go mad earlier but show an obvious descent into the darkness. For most of this show she’s been ruthless towards her enemies but kind towards everyone else, they should’ve shown that change over time. Two episodes is too little too late for it to make sense, especially when they had to dumb them down and buff her enemies in order for it to happen.
Couldn't have said it better myself
@@Sharpie_17 are u actually braindead? ur arguments dont even make sense so stfu
To call someone crazy is dismissive. People make choices. She knew what was “good” and she was going to “liberate” the entire world. She chose to save the world. What would you do to save the planet?
How’s that lead to her burning Kings Landing? Well people either follow people they trust or people they fear. It’s also the same reason she burned Samwells family. Bend the knee or be destroyed.She sacrificed those people to keep others from fighting against her. Wouldn’t you kill one person to save ten?
So that’s my take. She didn’t turn evil. She wasn’t out of character. She was a person who could justify doing terrible things because she “knew what was right”. And she’s been that since the end of the first season.
Ruthlessness is not insanity. Its not even close. One is calculated, the other is far from it. Its almost like the difference between bad writing and good writing.....
AlphaAurora
Yes. She's been shown as ruthless and too inflexible, not mad. People call burning the witch and watching Viserys die without flinching "mad" only because there is a history of madness in her family and they interpret all her actions through that lens. Sansa wasn't flinching when Ramsay got eaten alive, she even _smiled_ yet no one said it was mad because madness isn't associated with the Starks.
The term mad might be tripping you up. Nobody is claiming Dany is poo flinging insane.
More like immoral. She has her own moral compass and sees nobody as her equal. So in danys new world morality it whatever she feels is right. You never saw the problem with that?
She was doing what decisive strong leaders do.
Right? The only thing Dany did that the viewers (or characters on-screen) griped about was the killing of Sam's brother. The rest of her actions were seen as hard justice. Ned Stark murdered a terrified, traumatized teenage boy in episode one - and all the kid did was defect! If Ned went mad nobody would have said sh*t about that being foreshadowing.
@@ActuallyDoubleGuitars replace decisive strong leaders with the word dictators.
I loved this show because it used to shock the audience due to the amazing writing and consistency behind it, now it's shocking the audience purely because we are meant to be shocked. How atrocious is that...
Honestly this season hasn't really been a shock for me, because as things started going south for each character, my watch group and I were calling the shots accurately, which isn't how GoT used to be. Before we could speculate and the show would go in a completely different direction..this season has sadly been rather predictable. :/
Its been shocking since the beginning not because of good writing , but because its doing the direct opposite of what people expect, which is just a lazy way to make a show popular, they just really had very good timing with people being tired of happy stories
Nirva Rybak I would
Literally doing what it's always done, But you're only just realizing it and applying to the present but not the past.
but if it wasnt then itd be too predictable and then it would still be bad writing.
I want the showrunners to be locked in a room and forced to watch this. Since they are in complete denial of any, ANY criticism of their "greatness".
In loop for a few years. Maybe 8
Yep
I have to commend you on this video. It’s got to be one of the most eye opening concerning the severely quick “regression” of Danys character. At the beginning of S1 and S2 those subtle hints of her eventual “maddening” due to her being “throne hungry” are relevant. But I sure don’t buy how quickly she had done a 180 and decided to pull a Hiroshima on KL.
i agree . i am the first person to disagree with people saying the dany arc was bad and that they are exaggerating but i see his point now
@@arionas26 the journey is just as important as the destination. They boched her journey.
Are several years of ruthless behavior now a “180”? It was clear from the beginning she wouldn’t let anyone or anything get in her way to the Iron Throne.
@@peacefulsocialjustice9270 ruthless is a lil strong. Burning the tarlys was the worst thing she did. I get they we're planting seeds but we didn't get to see the seeds grow.
@@xdan9xx I'm not defending the slavers buuuuut, crucifying 100+ people isn't anything less than ruthless
THANK YOU. I've been saying this as loud as possible.
Foreshadowing is NOT character development.
Right, character development is showing that she's been bat shit crazy since she realized her brother wasn't the real dragon. So well done!!
Robert Moody No, they haven’t shown that she’s bat shit crazy, in fact, they’ve continuously shown that she’s ruthless in her endeavour to get to the Iron Throne. There’s a big difference between the two.
It is character development. Dany has been going there. It only happened fast. She is programmed and is accustomed to receive positive reaction. People praise her.
People fail her in King's Landing. Look at her face in Winterfell as she watched Jon, who is being praise by many.
Lost Jorah and Missandei.
Then Jon feared her.
It is character development from the start. When you look at it from a logical perspective, it is expected.
People have to express their pain. We react over petty reasons. Men brawl over a woman in real life. Men fist fights over a traffic. And you expect Dany to have tea with Cersei?
Bullshit.
We've been prepared from the start.
Right, Dany's character development where we're explicitly shown her becoming more cruel, more violent, and more prone to rage is character development. Her closest friends dying right in front of her, largely because of Cersei's wishes to keep the Iron Throne, were clear motivations for her to burn King's Landing. This character development, combined with foreshadowing, telegraphed what was going to happen very clearly. Anybody who didn't see this coming, or anybody who thinks that it's inappropriate despite the mountain of context clues telling us this would happen, is an idiot.
@@victoriannecastle Have tea with Cersei? HAVE TEA WITH CERSEI?
See how far you have to stretch what people are saying to make it sound unreasonable?
No, I expected her to nuke Cersei and go too far. But mass murdering biggest monster in history? Someone who has spent 7 seasons freeing slaves and only killing her enemies and the wickedest people in the world? Someone who has consistently said she didn't want to harm innocent people.
I don't know what to say to people who don't know what a good story is. If you like it, fine, but it's a terrible story.
Contrast this to Breaking Bad. That's a believable arc from protagonist to monster.
I love how you explained your reasons and I agree completely. Dany was doomed and she was right about everything along the way. They have had her acting fake around Sansa, single minded (but then relenting) with Jon and Tyrion, and suddenly vicious to thousands of people who have no power. It bothers me that it is almos the end and there is no one left to care about. I like Jon, for sure, but now I'm wondering--Is Gendry going to fight Jon, as Robert fought Rhaegar? Is Tyrion going to join Jon and fight Dany? Is Sansa going to be queen of the North? Do I even care--not much. I could have been happy with GoT ending with Season 7. It has been a giant disappointment, and a terrible ending for a groundbreaking series.
there is no character development possibe for killing millions of innocent . she just snapped at that moment even ramsey cant do what she did
@@dzoussama440 Which is precisely why it's a fail. Having her just snap at that moment is uninteresting. Interesting article about it here: blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/
The writers need a lesson on how to write a tragedy. Back to basics: tragedies aren't tragedies because uncontrollable things happen, though an uncontrollable circumstance or two isn't a problem on its own. Tragedies are so tragic because of characters do the wrong things for the right reasons. You understand their choices, and you also understand how those choices were bad. Sometimes because of a circumstance or two the character couldn't predict, but a diablos ex machina is just as bad as a deus ex machina near the end. Personally, I think the best endings, tragic or romantic, are the type where, assuming the characters remain the same people, whatever details are altered they will always end up right there. Not because of predestination, but because that's who they are. The best downfalls are ones that are caused by the character's own choices based on their flaws or even their good aspects-- think Hamlet's tragic flaw being his indecision, but as a King thinking over every choice would be his greatest strength, it's just the wrong strength for the life he's in. He did the wrong thing-- waiting too long to kill his uncle-- for the right reasons-- to be sure that his uncle did commit the crime Hamlet plans to kill him over. Fuck, think Anakin Skywalker. Normally one would call love a strength, but he eventually was manipulated into being a complete monster in the name of love. The wrong thing, the right reasons. I don't know how you could rewrite Dany's story to be comparable to even Anakin Skywalker's arc, but the most important change would be to give the downfall time, and to make it into something the audience can understand and be horrified at despite understanding. Honestly, if they'd just had Dany more slowly progress away from the kindness she was trying so hard to focus on... maybe do something like not choose humanity in the first place and have her attack King's Landing first due to whatever justifications that the audience would understand her making... that might make more sense.
This is so easy to do.
Have Dany siege King's Landing but refuse to use the dragons. The siege drags on for months. As the siege drags on, Jon and Dany slowly grows apart as Dany begins to see how much more the common people love Jon Snow as compared to her who they only fear. Add the fact that rumors begin to spread that Jon is the rightful heir and seeds of doubt begins to creep into Dany. Yet all throughout, Jon assures her he loves her and pledges undying loyalty.
But Varys happens. He begins to see Dany slowly descending into paranoia. He remembers Aerys and sees the eerie similarities. He begins his machinations to off Dany by trying to poison her. Tyrion discovers the plot to poison her but not who the plotter is. He warns Dany. She stops eating, spending more time flying with her dragons on feeding runs. She begins to become more paranoid the longer the siege and her fasting goes on.
Finally, Jon and their army manages to break through the siege and get inside King's Landing. The Golden Company surrenders and Jon accepts their surrender. Dany arrives and Jon present the captives to her. Then, as Jon begins to walk through the civilians, helping them and asking if they were okay, an assassin Cersei planted in the crowd stabs Jon and shouts: Westeros will never accept you! Then quickly vanishes through the crowd. Dany quickly rushes to Jon who lies dying. Jon gasps to her "You'll always be my queen, my beloved." Then dies.
And there you have it - the perfect moment for Dany to go mad.
She shouts to the crowd "Who did it? Who killed the heart of my heart? Who killed my King in the North?"
No one answers. Dany stands up, shaking with pure rage. "You were willing to kill one of the kindest, most honorable man I ever knew. The man who begged me to spare your lives. The man who was willing to forsake everything just to do his duty. The man I love. You say Westeros will never accept me? Well I say to you I don't need your permission and I don't need your acceptance."
Then Dany turns around as Dracarys lands behind her, whispering softly, as tears fell from her freely. "Fire and blood will do. Fire and blood will do!" Then she looks up to Dracarys and whispers his name. "Dracarys." Dracarys starts to burn everyone in the crowd. Dany then rides Dracarys as she speaks his name one more time. Dracarys then turns to the Golden Company who surrendered and burns them all. Then she orders Dracarys to fly and she proceeds to napalm the shit out of King's landing.
And there you have it. Dany has logically become insane without being stupid as fuck.
I can deal with Cersei's death too, if you like. And the Night King too. Both deserved logical endings too. In fact, I can deal with all of the stupid shit that happened this season and fix them so they become more logical and not become a stinking pile of imbecility.
I just need to sleep.
You kind of echoed the same sentiments that I had in that they would had to rewrite her character into being more complicated like Stannis (as my example) from further back into the seasons in order for it to make any sense.
@@HVBRSoF WOW this was absolutely perfect!!! Thanks for fixing the shit ending...if you could do that for Night King and Cersei, it would be so awesome!!!
@@HVBRSoF Damn that's a good ending! Sorry lol but it's Drogon, the dragons name isn't Dracarys
I only disagree about the part of Jon getting randomly killed, it may be something perfect for Daenerys's change but it doesn't seems a good way to kill a major character.
They literally killed off everybody around her so fast just so they could make her the mad queen and to create another villain.
I personally didn't like how there was 40mins of Dany just lighting up the city, like the writers couldn't come up with anything more complex and just took the easy way out, this is 'Game' of Thrones not a Michael Bay movie.
Also something nobody seems to be talking about is how Jon is basically a catalyst to other characters. There's been no screen time to highlight his introspection, he knew Dany hadn't been eating or interacting with anyone yet he pulls away from her and doesn't even explain why or try to comfort her, he just stands there. There needed to more episodes to flesh out the relationships and conversations between the characters, so the audience can understand how they think and feel.
Exactly right. We don't even know how he really feels about being Tyagrarian. Why wouldn't he comfort her and emphasize that they are family, that they are the last Tyagrarians and that they will stand by each other? All we get is versions of, "your my queen" repeated over and over.
Oh they all happened "off screen". You need to watch the behind the scenes interviews to understand cause..... reasons.
After building his reputation, Jon bending the knee should've been his seemingly weakest point before proving the decision to be a good one. I'm not saying his character is too strong to make a bad choice, but as that choice shows to be progressively worse he loses more and more of that power and respect he earned throughout the series by just watching everything happen.
@@psychoamy6146 you know it's a bad idea to have behind the scenes moments at the end of a show anyways. The second I saw that my immersion was broken, and only questioned why they would include it? Now it's obvious, and even more disappointing
@@bluethan806 that's the point. They are making
JON ISNT PERFECT. Had Jon done something else he would be branded the typical hero, perfect and boring so they sidelined him
Jon is partly to blame now and for that reason should never get the throne. Also him not explaining to Dany just shows how confused he is so dont know why people are questioning that.
Although he should have done more this season
Both characters will have bitter ends.
Storytelling has been shocking
This is the best analysis of 8.5 I've seen all week. I agree completely.
Same
I've been expecting dany to become a villain of some kind for a long time but I agree that it hasn't been written well and I'm very disappointed
yeah i'm actually really sad that the potential of villain Daenerys is wasted....it could have been so good and her character depth could have been so great
Same. It's so rare to see that "hero turns villain" storyline nowadays, so I would've loved it if they'd executed it well. Unfortunately, only the idea was brilliant, but the execution forced. And this is coming from someone who was lenient on the first four episodes of this season. :/
she has always been a villain. bringing in an invading force, whose leader promised to kill men, rape women and take children as slaves. this is a dick move.
@@bocckoka And she changed their way of life. She made sure they wouldn't do that when they come to win next time, and they didn't. She made sure they wouldn't rape and so on.
They should have made her madness a major plot point in s7 with the death and resurrection of Viserion as a major catalyst for it.
In an interview, Emilia Clarke returns to the interviewer to say simply, "I stand by Dany." I too stand by her. The showrunners destroyed the hero of their story in *two hours*. It made no sense, it was rushed and cheap, and it ruined the story thousands of people had spent years of their lives to create. We could make a similar argument, by the way, for Jaimie, whose redemption arc was just thrown away, for nothing. The integrity of the creation was crushed by what appears to be sheer laziness or utter foolishness on the part of the showrunners.
Contemptible.
Daenerys Targaryen deserved better than this botched hatchet job. Emilia Clarke deserved better, too.
That's why Jon has been walking around dumbfounded, he's becoming the Mad King!
His Targ genes are kicking in now xD.. soon he'll hear voices in his head and "ICE THEM ALL!" (coz Stark genes makes him bring winter)
Seriously, how much more interesting would it have been for Jon to lose his mind?
@@shkhrvarshney Speaking of 'hallucinations' which is a 'hallmark' to determining actual Mental Illness, why couldn't they have had her having hallucinations in the Feast Hall instead of her just looking around with those 'bug eyes' looking JEALOUS of Jon's celebrity?
Why didn't she SEE things that weren't there like maybe the dead Dothraki Commander or an Unsullied or two, maybe she see's Jon, Tormen and whoever else 'huddled' and whispering casting glances back at her.
Oh! I know! She walks past Greyworm that day and hears him say "It's your fault she's dead" but when she glances back at him he's just staring at into thin air and she realizes he hasn't said anything! Now we also have the seeds of ACTUAL paranoia! Ser Jorah should have been her trigger, if she had to have one. Why wasn't there a 'flashback' with the Bells to when maybe she and her brother had to leave the Safe House, she remembers with the 'Red Door', maybe there was more to them having to leave that city then we know OR ALL SHE CAN SEE when the bells ring is Messandra being beheaded and falling off those very walls.
This was 'rushed', we (the showrunners) can get away with it... b/s!
@Thetasteofhoney1 True that, lol!!!
@@Ms.Byrd68 Yeah, make it like this season was someone's hallucinations and start over again. Make the last season right. Give it 16 episodes and don't blow it.
I'm annoyed by virtually everything this season, but I think the thing I'm most annoyed by is what they did to Varys. As if he would ever allow somebody to find out that he knew a secret he wasn't supposed to know, and as if he would stick around to be executed if they did. Varys is one of the most intelligent characters in the books, and the show has absolutely ruined him to service their "Dany be crazy" narrative.
Just like Lord Baelish. One of the smartest men in Westeros couldn't come up with anything better than "SANSA PLEASE" when faced with the flimsiest prosecution ever.
And burning Varys is no sign of Crazy ess at all. She could have had killed him at the beginning, but didn't, took his service and told him she will do this if He betrays her. She had to do it, as ned had to kill the Nightwatchguy first episode.
I hate how they dumbed down Varys, Tyrion and Littlefinger, after spending seasons establishing them as the smartest men in Westeros
This video is one of the most clear and sensible essays I’ve seen and listened to, especially about the subject. From your intro to your conclusion, I was hooked. I gotta say, I still don’t know what to feel and what to do about everything that happened this season but there is no doubt in my mind now that Dany’s character was butchered. She was simply done dirty. And it really is one of the most frustrating things I’ve seen on television. I still can’t accept it. But I also can’t praise you enough for your video and all the points you made, excellent job. 👍🏼
same, Dany and Jon had like a parallel journey, both outcasts, had to struggle so much, got betrayed many times. I'd even say it was worse for Dany because she kind of experienced Westeros several times, tried to free cities, ruled them and faced rebellions. She was even more ready than Jon to take the throne, the only believable reason for her not to get it would be to be killed while fighting or something. But this? Being mad for no reason or because of so-called genes? This is the worst 'twist' ever.
SkyLight Gameuse couldn’t agree more! 🙌🏽❤️
Dude your point about how Dany's blamed for both listening & ignoring her advisors is DAMN TRUE!!!
I love this video & I agree with every single point you made
About Dany being damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, SO TRUE!! She couldn't win either way.
Honestly, it feels like nothing Danny could have ever done was going to be right due to how the writers chose to frame everything she did.
Take Kings Landing first before helping the North? She's turning her back on humanity and allowing the North to be destroyed. Helping the North first? No one trusts her because she's an outsider, and her army is halved while Cersei's doubles. Waits and cuts off food supplies? She's inhumanly starving the people, and is allowing Cersei's power to further fester (remember; revolting didn't work when Cersei blew up GOT's version of the pope, I don't know why starving would finally make that happen). Immediately take Kings Landing by force? She's crazy -- a true image of her father! Trusts her advisors? Loses. Doesn't listen to her advisors? Loses.
There's nothing compelling about making a character fail no matter what they do, no matter who they are. It's just sad.
George gave the writers an outline for each character including Dany. This was her path and eventually it would be the same in the books.
@@einezcrespo2107 George gave them a very rough outline of where he was going with some of the characters and has already inferred that it's impossible the show to have the same ending as the books because they've killed characters off who aren't going to die and completely failed to adapt others. You're going off of very old information.
It's worth pointing out that show-Danny isn't book-Danny by virtue of both her and Jon sharing elements of fAegon's path because he isn't present in the show. Which in itself is dumb because they could have easily introduced Young Griff in season 5 instead of wasting time in Dorne with Jaime and Bronn.
@@Iritis- He already hinted it wouldn't be that different an ending on the books. In way George is partly to blame for taking his time. Lastly the show is based on the books.
@@einezcrespo2107 books are very different than tv show, it is impossible at this point that they can have a similar ending...
@@doramasonGeorge RR gave them an outline for every major character.
It‘s like Anakin‘s choice, but remove the urgency of the circumstances forcing his hand.
Chanson
Only there was actual urgency. I just think that so many missed it, myself included. Dany wanted to run her campaign a certain way, but her advisors, namely Tyrion, talked her down. Look at what that got her. She lost her allies in Dorne and Highgarden. Then she embarks on a quest to “save the people” from the invasion of the undead. What does that gain her? Not the adoration that she hoped for and has come to expect from her time in Essos. Instead, Jon receives that and she feels like her brother did for the very first time; threatened. Then she learns the more popular hero(Jon) has a stronger claim to the throne.
Now fast-forward a bit and she returns back to King’s Landing loses yet another dragon and a close friend, listening to her advisors yet again. And she learns the secret is out about Jon. People are turning on her now and she’s scared of losing the throne. Jon no longer returns her affections so she doesn’t fight to keep that relationship intact, and she feels betrayed. She’s angry for all she’s lost, including Missandei and she decides to adopt a scorched earth campaign. The only move that could solidify her position as the ruler of Westeros and the quickest best way to quell any talk of deposing her in favor of John. Taking the city was not enough. She needs the fear to spread to the other kingdoms that the same might happen to them. Remember she only has one dragon. If she loses that, her leverage is gone. Fear is her only ally at this point and the people don’t love or favor her. She doesn’t want to be Queen of Ashes, but she’ll choose it over losing the crown.
RadTheLad Impatient? Or is she aware that she has limited time before support rallies for Jon, the true heir. A non-foreign invader who has not burned people for refusing to bend the knee.
Not only this, but Anakin was manipulated from day one. According to the extended, but still canon universe, it's postulated that Palpatine created him using the force, hence the midichloiran count being so high. He's basically a force baby created with the sole purpose for his life to go wrong to become Palpatine's puppet.
Dany has none of that going on in the same way. Targayen madness is not explained with genes, it's explained by her father going mad hearing voices and become schitzophrenic because of it, likely due to Bran medling in the past. At least Anakin's fate was fueled from day one to be terrible.
@@icbarefoot Her real indication that she was always going to get screwed was because she thinks she has any claim to a throne just because of being a Targaryen, which in the past has put them all in hot water more than once. Blood doesn't meaning anything. The world they live in is garbage and the rules they all hold dear are stupid. I think the entire point, even if not well executed is that this entire game is folly. There should not be a throne and likely if John does take it, he would abolish or at least ratify the idea of a king as he doesn't want to be it.
@@icbarefoot now see, all of this could be done by adding some more scenes of dialogue with her expressing her fears, aside from the ones she's already had with Jon and Tyrion. All we wanted was more episodes to properly display her descent instead of it all coming to a head in a few episodes
This is the best analysis I've seen on the disservice to Dany's character
(and I've been doing nothing but looking at TH-cam and Twitter rants this last week). Well done
I couldn't agree more, I've been looking for a more neutral and reasonable review, but just about everyone seems to have lost their cool when it comes to this.
I used to respect Varys a lot in the beginning.
He used to be intelligent, the spider , master of whispers and what not until he came to aid Dany.
He really became impotent when he was serving Dany.
We don't see any of his children spies around him, while he used to aid Dany.
As soon as he turned against her, children came back to him.
Well this is of no surprise, Tyrion Lannister, the most witty character used to be so productive even against stannis , in his "first war", even though he didn't knew much about his enemy. But when he comes to aid Dany he becomes stupid all of a sudden-all his strategies prove useless against his sister, whom he knew quite well.
Jon Snow - The "most honourable", in seven kingdoms could behead, hang ppl who went against rules--is justified.
When Dany burns Tarlys, even after giving them a choice, and even though its war--still she is mad.
I won't justify what Dany did in the concluding episodes, but extremely disappointed by the way which show developers used.
After a great character build up of 7 fu**in seasons, You turn her mad, simply because there had been long suspicions and talks of her going mad, and that she is daughter of someone who went mad? or just to make sure the show did not end being too predictable?
The show makers should have at least shown a transition in character so that all this cud have been digested. Maybe things r quite different in books, but they completely ruined the show finale for sure.
Anant Singh Durgavanshi Summed up my thoughts 👍
LMAO, "impotent". This is Varys we're talking about.
8:49 YES YES YES! We see ruthless brutality from so many characters and the writers don’t make us question their sanity so overtly and suddenly
kefkapalazzo1 right? Arya joined a death cult and became a serial killer and she’s the hero of winterfell
Arya has been a deeply disturbed character the entire show. Again, I don't see why everyone has been so causally blind around this. She literally spent her nights falling to sleep reciting who she would kill. She became just a weapon - one they, or George, obviously planned to send at the Night King. If you think she's sane then it's a bit of a concern.
Not Alfie I know, which is why I’m upset with how she went from just as ruthless as any other person on this show to committing genocide in one episode - the pacing and build up makes no sense, there’s no real character development to get us there. Sure there’s some foreshadowing but that’s not enough - a riddle or clever line about madness here and there isn’t enough. At this point I’m just hoping and praying the books don’t let me down and I get a better story that’s easier to digest.
@Not Alfie *cough cough* Cersei
They don't have mental issues and obsessive behaviors running in their family tree. Genes are everything like litterally she tried to be better, she failed end of story sometimes in life you do your best but you fail she couldn't run from what she was (I fight for the people, yeah right I never beleived that. The day tyrion brought up her succession she flipped her shit, like only her was made to rule. Like sis, If you love the people an they love Jon then back off, that lady was obsessive and narcissistic).The boltons I'll give you psychopaths, Joffrey was a sadistic c* but other than that .... No Targaryen should be treated like some other characters because they're just not like everyone else. Dany looks like a "different Targaryen" but come on even nice Rhaegar is responsible for Robert's rebellion. Getting thousands of people killed for what being in love sounds pretty selfish to me.
Fully agree with you. The "Targaryen coin toss" thing is adding insult to injury.
Tossing coins is definitely how the writing of this season went down
I always took that quote to mean they showed signs of mental instability from the get go. I never once thought it meant “at any age or time they could snap” but the show seemed to be saying that in this season
Raven I am not defending this season, however its said that tge mad king was a good king at first and his madnesses started in his later years. So technically its canon for targaryens to show signs later in life.
But i dont think that this was the right call. They literally had no build up to her madness. It feels like they woke up one morning and said fuck it. Lets make her a crazy bitch now!
@@rexerator It was rushed, thats true. But I dont think 1 or 2 full seasons of build-up would have been nice to watch and there was no logical way to stall the story for another 2 seasons just to have Dany going mad with appropriate buil-up. They should have went with 8 season with 10 episodes, they had the filler and the story to fill this and it would have been better. But I dont know about ten full seasons. The material form the books is there but the plotlines from the books left arent finished and would take too much time to include in the series imo.
@@rexerator yes but his madness did not just appear out of nowhere. His madness started after he was held captive in duskendale for over half a year during a rebellion that only ended when barristan selmy single handedly stormed the town to save him. He also had his own son rhagaer plotting to overthrow him and most of his kingdom was divided on whether to do it or not. This happened over the space of a few years as he slowly fell into madness.
absolutely! Personally, I am not mad about her going mad. I am mad bout the rushed, unexplained pace and many dead ends the last two seasons offered.
This. Every one keeps acting like we should've expected anything different though. Consistency, thoughtful plotting, and logic truly and permanently went out the window with Gendry's sprint back to the wall last season, imo. I dunno why people are acting like it should've spontaneously returned just for Daenerys' sake.
Also how come that everyone looses their mind that jon is the true king, just so it is never mentioned again in the finale? I hate how one thing is so so important in one episode and in the next its not anymore
I am personally mad that they made her crazy in the end with no logical reason for the sudden change despite seven seasons of her being depicted as someone that was mostly heroic throughout the last several years.
@@fe5018 Actually, it went out the window with the dumb idea of them going to get that Wight (creature) in the first place. I kept thinking how it didn't make sense when they couldn't trust Cersei to cooperate at all or was clearly so evil at that point.
She's mad but not really.
You literally spit out facts. I could not agree with you more. This whole season was super disappointing and felt rushed and crammed together. She was my favorite character and they just got lazy with her demise.
"let's not give the writers too much credit"... truer words haven't been spoken
They said there story has to be told in 6 episodes, while HBO offered more. They just wanted to rush everything..
I've heard that D&D were offered more budget by HBO, and to make it 10 episodes, but they turned it down.
Little fact for those people I've seen saying something along the lines of "of course it is rushed, they only had 6 episodes".
HBO wanted 10 full seasons with 100 episodes in total, but D&D wouldn't hear it. HBO's mistake was not firing them when it became clear they had lost interest and were not up to the task and replacing them with other show runners. The quality of writing has declined since season 5 so the signs were there.
@@HeloisGevit They can't fire them because the rights were handed to them. HBO could've maybe bought the rights but I don't think D&D would've budged.
@@daemonspade8316 I hope HBO learned their lesson well with this and retains the rights to their productions and the "producers" are just hired help from this point on.
@@9999plato I don't know their technicalities so forgive me if I end up being wrong but from what I understand, it's GRRM's fault. He gave the book rights to D&D completely. Whether this was done with HBO's knowledge and consent or not, I am not aware of.
@D Leo Yeah, them just wanting to finish it to move on explains the results completely. It is also bullshit to cut a show short just because you don't feel like it anymore. They are real scumbags. If they wanted to quit, they should of handed it over to someone else.
Watching our Queen grow for years upon years in order to be completely decimated by these idiot writers is an atrocity of life.
Thank you for making this eloquent video.
BRILLIANT. Excellent. YES. This is what I've been saying. Very, very well laid-out and truly inarguable. They f*cked her over again and again, plain and simple. The writers destroyed King's Landing for no good reason, not her. In the end it's just, "Sorry, this beautifully developed character has to go nuts because her daddy went batty and you can't avoid becoming your parent no matter how hard you try and how strong you are." I wouldn't have flinched carrying out any of those justified take-downs of evil people and enemies either, wtfh?! They pulled some last-minute BS because the plot outline demanded that certain things happen, and happen quickly. -_- And they made it impossible for her to win regardless of what she did.
I didn't want a happy sunshine-and-rainbows, Jon-and-Dany-rule-over-a-perfect-little-Westeros conclusion. I wanted something that made more sense and didn't butcher one of the most excellent characters.
I'll always adore my Dragon Queen.
D&D done her wrong.
If the city were refusing to surrender...if Rhaegal and/or Missandei were still around and she lost them during/after this battle...if she saw citizens demonstrating that they saw her as an evil invader and actually somehow supported their cruel and tyrannical Cersei...MAYBE THEN I could have bought what she did. Becoming the monster they thought she was.
However, the Dany we know wouldn’t randomly mass-murder a population of subjects who were posing no problem to her, who’d given her no reason to suspect them as guilty of anything worthy of execution. There was simply no reason, no motive if she was in her right mind. A moment ago she wanted to rule over these people. Suddenly she’s nuts and only wants to liberate them from life itself (a perspective, okay, but not one she’s previously explored.) What they reduced Dany to was either "Blonde Targs be cray" or "She had headphones on and people in the streets were flipping her off." Damned shame.
This is SO well put together. GREAT JOB ON THIS VIDEO.
HE IS WRONG!! He can not use typical behavior from mentally healthy people and compare it to mentally unstable people. Mentally unstable people are guided by different rules and they do not have the same moral compass as healthy people.
Arkadiusz Jan Dylewski you’re definitely right in the clinical sense, I think he is referring more to the compelling writing (and storytelling) that we have come to expect on this show.
Exactly, foreshadowing does not equal character development finally someone as said it. They also foreshadowed that Jon would kill the NK. That Dany would become pregnant. That the NK kills everyone. Foreshadowing on its own is meaningless.
The Red Wedding didn't happen because Dany had a vision about it but because the actions of various characters and several storylines led to that conclusion.
There were no actions that Dany took in the past that would make me think she would burn INNOCENT citzens, sure she's ruthless when killing like most characters in the show but burning innocent people, even after they won the battle.
Untitled right it’s not good when I watch the show and can’t believe the characters actions. Not because I’m shocked, but because I just don’t believe her
Morgan C. Paige Yeah its not good when Im questioning if these even are the same characters
I don't think you fully understand "foreshadowing".
Dany killing her enemies in battle or by execution is the path she's always said she would take, by fire and blood. A massacre of innocent civilians, women and children, is not in the same category of 'work' though. Civilians and children are NOT the enemies of Dany, she made sure to save civilians and slaves wherever she went before and NOT massacre them even though she could. This was in Essos though, where she had love because she did protect the people and took their side against the powerful elite.
That was Danys arc as presented in the series and books, we knew there was this risk of her landing on the wrong side of the coin, Gods flip a coin whenever a Targaryen is born. But her entire character arc from Essos didn't show any of the "madness traits", when she came to Westeros she decided (after some time) to join in the fight for the living- for the people. When Drogon burned the shepherds little girl Daenerys put Viserion and Rhaegal into chains to protect her new people. This again show that she's protecting and fighting for the people, the next enemy is once again the elite and powerful- Cersei and the southerners who hold Kings Landing. She's lost along the way but she still hasn't broken the line of killing innocents or turning to warcrimes, however in the final fight when *everything* is won, she does exactly that. Kills tens of thousands of innocents (if not hundreds of thousands), killed troops that had surrendered (where in the past she offered them mercy if they 'bend the knee'.
Nothing suggested or was told in the story arc that she was going insane, that she would use brutality against civilians or enemies that had surrendered, she would give them all a chance to answer for their crimes towards her or become her allies if they previously weren't.
If she had eliminated the elite of slavers bay in Essos, instead of keeping them in a state of power, that would've given us a sign that she was turning.
If she had kept burning the Lannister armies that were transporting the spoils from Highgarden, that would've given us a sign that she was turning.
If she had turned away her advisors earlier and not constantly forgiving Tyrion his faults, that would've given us a sign that she was turning.
Did we get any of that? No, not at all. Instead we were constantly reminded of her *GOOD* deeds, kindness and forgiveness. All up to the point of Kings Landing... ... ... until she had won it all, then she went mad...
Wow you took the words out of my head. Unfortunately there are a lot of people patrolling around that Dany's actions like watching his brother die and killing the Tarly's instantly makes her insane.
@@grumpyoldtroll5676 Like I pointed out, she only did those things to her enemies AFTER she gave them a choice to leave or join her.
Viserys was allowed to leave, she did not go after Dany. It was he that sold her to Drogo, it was he that tried to steal her dragon eggs, it was he that tried to rule over her.
Same with the Tarlys, they were enemies that were defeated. Then they were given a choice, to 'bend da niiigh' or to be executed.
Not once did Dany show loss of control, rash behaviour or spontanious acts of violence.
Over and over we see her show compassion, mercy, just ruling and avoiding death to civilians.
The writers are truly bad, horribly bad.
@@MrGlennJohnsen Loss can turn even the best person into a villain; it's all about a person's breaking point. Good analysis though!
The truly lunatic ones are the ones who believe killing people in war is justified while outside of it it's not. Those who start/perpetuate wars are still murderers. Daenerys could have just not attacked the Lannisters last season, or this season. This is on her, and she is complicit in her losses.
@@MrGlennJohnsen She had no authority to give somemone the choice. She never gave the Tarlys a choice either. CHoice would mean they have the right not to bend the knee to her or die. That's slavery, not choice.
I agree with U 100%. I hope Martin closes this beautiful character's arc in a proper way, what D&D have made with her is unforgivable!
There is a bright side, at least for me, I won’t miss the show at all like I thought I would. No show-hole for me...
Amy Jones my issue is that now I’ll have the slight hope of a season 8 remake in the back of my mind until it happens. The petition that’s nearing 1mil signatures is only giving me even more probably false hope.
Right? I couldn't wait to rewatch all of it again. Now I will never bother except for Tywin clips.
@@ainmon5875 I don't think they will do that. But those books will come out eventually and maybe in 10 years or so, there will be a remake.
AInmon not to be a downer, but have those ever actually worked? In time, new and original shows as good or even better than game of thrones will return, sadly I think we probably have to wait for those
@@callummcdougall3741 Indy Content is on the rise as technology decreases the necessity of the middle man between Imagination and Content. 0ad for example is a 100% free video game. One of the best that I have ever played. We will see more and more of such things as the technology improves.
Omg thank you! I've been saying this all along. Basically, you can make a character do anything this way, without any reason or logic, and then cherry pick something they did in the past and say "See that thing x they did, foreshadowing!"
Everything is foreshadowing if you retcon hard enough
@@maxcoseti True, just like they did with Melisandre's "prophecy" to Arya.
Exactly, they picked moments of her shrewdness and out of context as well. I'm not even a Danny fan but this was so forced and rushed.
@@christianaayodele - Right?! 🤷🏻♀️😤 I'm not even a Dany stan either! But damn! This is effing ridiculous! She's never been anymore ruthless than any of her male counterparts in the show! Book readers will know the story of "Tysha" - Tyrion's 1st wife, and what Tywin did to her! 😬😩 Not to mention characters like Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, the Slavers in Meereen, the Dothraki warlords, etc?! How has Dany EVER been worse than they were?! Hell, Stannis burned people alive! 🙄🤮 And then eventually did it to his own daughter! And yet STILL, we never called any of these evil, vile men, crazy!
Effing ridiculous to have Dany go "mad" like this, in the last TWO EPISODES of the entire series. It's so forced, rushed, extremely stupid & just completely unbelievable. Maybe w/2-3 seasons of REAL, proper foreshadowing, I could believe Dany possible of roasting a whole city alive. A slow, believable descent into madness would have been both sad & compelling to watch! But instead, the show made her an effing HERO til the final 2 eps, and now all of the sudden we are expected to "buy" that she's been crazy for a long time already?! 🤬🖕🏼 #Bullshit
@@renx81 its so stupid coz the Prophecy was introduced in the first season but D&D ONLY DECIDED she will be the one who will kill Night King 3 years ago!? DOESNT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE. This is purely for shock value only.
The writers kinda forgot about character development.
Aggressive Elevator Music honestly I wouldn't call it development, every time she's had to make a decision like this she makes the wrong call. Your confusing character development with a compelling character
@@donovanb8247 What do you mean "every time" she makes the wrong call? The first time we see Ned on this show he chops someone's head off, imagine how many lives would have been saved if he had listened to that guy tell him about the White Walkers rather than summarily execute him. Robb executes his own men all the time. Jon killed a literal child out of vengeance. Arya killed Walder Frey's kids and made them into a pie. Bran could use his gift to stop things like Dany burning down Kings Landing but doesn't.
Dany's actions apart from this latest episode are mostly in line with how everyone in this universe functions. Before now she has killed slavers and rapists and her enemies.
Saara A Saara A She burned the Khals alive, she crusifyed the slavers not just killed them, she burned the leader of the unsullied just to take his shit, she left those people to starve in that cave( yes treason is punishable by dead but Jesus), she burned the last Tullys alive (when they were prisoners not enemy's). Most of those things only madee sense because she's the "good guy", but they are all evidence of her being crazy. Idk what you mean by character development when these all happened constantly. It's just crazy hidden behind our ideals of Justice. I'm not saying it's well written but it does make sense.
I think when we hear what she has to say for herself will help pull things together a bit. The kind of person that's good at overthrowing a government usually isn't good at running one.
And John, Robb, and Ned were all just following the law fairly, none of them tortured people to death in the way Danny does. And yeah Arya is barely even a human, I feel that's pretty well established.
@@donovanb8247 Oh no, she did not kill the Tullys, she killed the Tarlys... : >)
Besides, her actions led us to see that she might confuse being ruthless with being sadistic. I still don't think she went full insane, actually, I think she is deeply wounded, but knows she went beyond amendments this time.
Karine Fonte killing the TARLEYS ;) would have been ruthless, burning them alive WAS sadistic. The only one I can think of that acted like that was Ramsy.
100% agree with everything said here. They did injustice to, imo, the most powerful character on the show. The "mad queen" turn could have been epic had they spanned it out a little further over more episodes. Maybe save Rhaegal's death for ep 5 where she is perched waiting for the bells and then the bells sound and someone kills Rhaegal with one last Scorpion. Then she flips her shit and destroys everything...even that would have been more in line with her character than what we got. Oh well...on to the final books and spin-offs.
A confrontation with Cersei would have been epic in that moment, but they squandered that opportunity and had Cersei die in some rubble. Smh.
"Dany kindof forgot about her morals"
just like those film makers forgot about coffee cups and plastic water bottles.
Epic Fail season in the end. Shame!!
The writers (D&D) forgot about what was important to the greatest TV series ever- and rushed to a very poorly written ending.
No - she was just consequent. See my comment above.
I've watched dozens of videos about this episode, and yours is simply the best. You really summed up my thoughts, everything is clear, explained and justified. Bravo!
thank you!
Exactly!
agreed!
Sometimes people confuse ruthlessness with madness. People need to be ruthless in war. This may be brutal, but at least it can be rationalized. Madness is about actions with little or no rationality. There was not enough of this type of behavior with Danny leading up to S8E5. Not nearly enough. Thanks for this post!
Jeff StarEagle I expecting the descent to madness to be slow. First, it starts as paranoia because the news of Jon being the rightful heir is spreading, and things get worse further on. But instead, dany just kills everyone even if the city surrendered which was dumb
Also considering that it is rare in history for victors to slaughter the population of a city that has surrendered with minimal resistance. Not even the Mongols did that. Bloodthirsty or insane people sure, but give us more build-up!
@@reybladen3068totally agree, her paranoia with Jon started only 1 episode before the burning of innocents for no reason. No wonder why people are thinking this was rushed.
THANK YOU, Jeff! It seems to me to be a huge double standard. Men can be ruthless and strategic in war and women are deemed crazy or cruel for the same or similar actions. The most offensive thing about it all to me has been what was supposed to have constituted as "hints" to her "madness." Especially in a show where real madness was shown and some of the most honorable characters have been the most ruthless.
Dany isn't insane, but she is something close to a psychopath.
I don't think many people will invest their time and emotional energy in
any of David Benioff's or D. B. Weiss's future projects if the payoff
is GOT S8
I hope so too
There's a difference between cold brutality towards those who have betrayed you, and insane killing of civilians.
what do you think happened to the civilians in every city invaded by the Dothraki? Seems like everyone forgets about that
@@JohnnyRoseofVersailles they are raped and murdered. We're not talking about the dothraki; we're talking about the mad queen being flipped on like a switch, and how her previous actions and choices don't support the shift.
@@JohnnyRoseofVersailles yea what the above poster said we're not talking about dothraki we're talking about Dany. And another thing she changed the raping pillaging behavior of thousands of dothraki THAT is NOT SOMETHING WE SHOULD FORGET
she's destroying a city from a top of a dragon. Just like bombers are not manned by brutal berserks, they can be flown by people who are coldly doing their duty, winning a war. Daenarys thinks she has no hope of being respected through love, despite having fought the army of the Dead; so she goes for fear: the fear a dragon inspires, which is throwing flames from above. She doesn't see the human misery down there, no more than a bomber pilot does. Her rage is directed at the idea of the city that she wanted to take, at Cersei she wanted to have revenge on, and who played her like a boy-scout, and that final victory that she has strived to get to but has been robbed from her.
@@Risingofthephoenix she also crucified people, took pride in threatening people to submit or be eaten or killed brutally, and of course burning khals alive along with many others. But that's okay, they were bad men, she definitely was never a brutal person in nature, especially when she sees someone as an enemy.
Your breakdown of the characters is the best I have heard. You have explained my exact feeling about why I am so angry/upset at the show after this season. Great job at explaining what went wrong.
Perfectly explained. This is what I've been trying to express since I watched the episode. People who still stan the show think that angry fans are angry because they wanted Dany to be good. For me it's not about *what* happens, but *how* and why.
What breaks my heart is that they could have told a magnificent story with all that budget and these great actors... and they chose to go the adjusted fanfic way.
Strictly speaking none of the characters are “good” that’s half of their charm. But there’s a difference in not being a saint and killing thousands for no reason. There’s no justification. Also I have to point out that there’s tons of very well written fanfic. Yeah there’s some bad ones, and some fantasy fulfillment ones (although those KNOW that they’re written that way) but there’s a bunch of good fanfic, sometimes that handles things better than canon.
I have heard much better fan fiction than this crap. This was pure lazy. If any of the shows fans go to watch D+D's Star Wars drivel they deserve to be burned by a dragon.
@@9999plato Right?! Also I've heard so many theories by fans that are all better than what we got. It is frustrating and baffling.
@@BriarPatchNyra I had no intention of shading fanfic, I could have worded it differently, yes.
I think the producers of this show were too focused on surprising the audience with shocking plot twists, and didn't care for the quality of it.
I believe they have the ability to do so, bad writing or not it's fairly easy to create a mad queen build up. What I assume they wanted to achieve was a shocking scene where no one would've thought she'd actually go mad, what instead ended up happening was a scene with no substance and no reasoning. I'd rather have a good character arc than a shocking scene tbh.