As a bassist, Colin is worth exploring. If I were to recommend a next Radiohead song with an interesting use of bass, I'd suggest Airbag, but really, any musician should explore their whole discography. There's simply too much original gold to miss out on.
This entire album has beautiful bass playing in it. Colin is like the Ringo of bass players in that he serves the song so well, but this album in particular has a lot of great bass grooves on it. The rhythm section has been the secret weapon for Radiohead for so many years and the drummer always seems to have a different approach for every song and so does Colin.
The fact that Phil can go from the lush jazz drumming of “Pyramid Song” or “You and Whose Army” to the high energy rock attack of “Paranoid Android” to the machine-like precision of “Weird Fishes” without breaking a sweat is why he’s an all-time great drummer, even if he’s not as flashy as many of his contemporaries.
@AllofJudea , Yeah, I always respected Radiohead, even saw them during their Pablo Honey tour back in the day with the band Belly. I had heard OK Computer and The Bends and respected them, but they just didn't grab me personally. One day I was flipping through channels and came across a channel showing "In Rainbows Live from the Basement" in its entirety and watching that made me fall in love with the album.
From the Basement is top notch. Nigel Godrich is amazing. It is the best recorded live performance of Radiohead. The latest season with Idles is amazing.
@@WordAte Absolutely - saw Idles live about a month ago - one of the best gigs I've been to. I'd add The Kills and The Raconteurs to that list too. Saw an interview with Nigel where he said the From the Basement sessions just became too expensive to continue - real shame.
You have to check out more Radiohead. Colin Greenwood is one of the most creative, fluid, and *tasteful* bassists in rock history. His work in songs like “Airbag,” “How to Disappear Completely,” and “15 Step” elevate those songs to something otherworldly.
Love the bass in this song and the whole album. Any time I put this album on I am instantly in a better mood despite the dark vibes. The bass is usually understated and tasteful in this band but they are well worth digging more into! There's usually a lot more going on than you realize at first.
Check out Airbag sometime. It’s not technically difficult, but challenging in the spacing and what he doesn’t play, that makes it an interesting bass line. Colin says it’s his favorite one to play live.
As a 15 year old obsessed with punk and alt rock when I was introduced to Radiohead circa 1999, “Airbag” blew me away immediately for its use of sonic space, and Colin’s immaculately sparse bass line, constantly popping in and out and yet ever-changing, is a huge part of how the band achieves that feeling.
It's in my top 5 actually along with at least one other Radiohead album but I love all their albums outside the first one which was a decent alt-rock album but nothing compared with all their albums.
Colin is one of the most under-rated bassists in the world, in my opinion - he sits in the back being a legend which allows the rest of the band to be even more legendary. EDIT: Michael Palmisano said EXACTLY the same as you at the end - Radiohead not being a band he really explored, not because he didn't like them but just because he came from a very different musical world. But everyone in music who dives into them really enjoyes their technicality and intricacy in how they construct their music
I gave Radiohead a fair chance a long time ago but it just did not stick..... Until I watched them playing this album from the basement. Its an amazing performance.
If you've never seen The King Of Limbs live from the basement it's almost as good as the In Rainbows session. It's a bit more proggish in a way but really amazing and I suggest you check it out.
@@jameshannagan4256 I think The King Of Limbs session is better from the perspective that the In Rainbows session brilliantly emulates the album, where as The King Of Limbs session is an elevatory transformation (especially the first 5 album tracks that utilised more programming). But yeah the In Rainbows session has better songs (even though Codex is a masterpiece and its brass section in the basement session is incredibly tasteful). Colin's work has always been like "this stuff of Thom's is cool, now allow me to make it even better", same goes for the other band members. Thom is blessed to have them.
Dude, you gotta do "15 Step" from this same album. Check out the From the Basement live performance of it. It takes a bit for the bass to come in, but once it does it grooves so hard.
No one song will ever give you a picture of what Radiohead is going. You could pick any other song and think it's a complete other band. They never repeat themselves, so everything is a re-invention, a stir of the pot. They constantly force themselves out of their comfort zones for a reason. Listen to the bass in the song Nude for example. It was the key that unlocked that song that they sat on for 10 years because they couldn't get it right. And then the bass line brought the song to life, and it's one of the greatest songs.
The bass line for “Nude” is so brilliant in its simplicity. Mostly octaves, nothing a beginner couldn’t play after a bit of practice. And yet, as you said, it was the key that elevated a song that the band had been sitting on for 10 frickin’ *years* into one of the brightest spots in their entire catalogue.
Radiohead have had genre descriptives like jazz and electronica fused to their versions of alt-rock... but In Rainbows is largely a soul album. Line up half the album with some 70s Stevie or Sly or Curtis and the arrangements make a ton of sense. There's nothing blue-eyed about it either. It's pretty thick. Their other descriptives are still there, along with experimental, but the soul is very noticeable and especially cued by bass.
I consider myself mostly a metalhead but I grew up on punk. That being said the part of me that is obsessed with songwriting adores The Pixies branch of punk and indie rock and Radiohead is one of my favorites of this branch of the music tree. I love the chances they take in their chord progressions and how they'll do Pixies style time signatures, where they are odd but so musical you don't really notice how odd they are. Really really great band.
Unless i'm specifically looking for it I never notice them playing in odd time sigs because it seems very natural and unforced and i'm glad i'm not the only person who noticed that.
One of the great things about Radiohead, very much including the bass, is that they're not afraid to play something *really freaking cool*, and then move on to the next part of the song without repeating something over and over. They don't need to beat you over the head with a repetitive bassline (though they're not above that, either) and trust you to get it anyways.
Nothing with Radiohead isn't intentional, every sound is incredibly well thought out and gets it's moment to shine, they're very deliberate with everything they do and actually quite fun if you're into theory, in fact they're almost proggy in a lot of ways. Even sounds and dissonant background sounds are incredibly well thought out and that's why they take years to make albums and you just have to wait just like Tool who they remind me of in more ways than you would think even though they sound nothing alike, they're kind of like the yang to Tool's Yin in a way.
Really enjoyed this reaction/study. You have many albums , this , Ok, The Bends, Moon Shaped Pool to really be moved by the arrangements , the instruments, note choices on and on. Plus the lyrical content tied to it all. Thanks and Enjoy.
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Great track to showcase the bassist here, and yes I always noticed the occasional unison with vocals which I find so tasty. Radiohead is pretty unique, no doubt
Radiohead are masters of the slow build! I also pretty much missed Radiohead in real time back in the day, but went through the discography last year... what a treat!!!!
Cool you discovered Radiohead, they are very technical and instrument orientated. For something heavier try "Body snatchers" from same album. Or more layers try out bloom, from the basement version of "the king of limbs"
Thank you for the analysis. I have never listened much to Radiohead before, but as a bassist, I definitely find this interesting to explore and learn from! Seeing your reaction to some Stone Temple Pilots bass lines would be amazing. My top favorites are "Interstate Love Song" and "Trippin' on a Hole in a Paper Heart"
I think you would really like King Crimson! they are an amazing band with amazing bassists Greg Lake, John Wetton and Tony Levin are all so unique and talented I would suggest 21st Century Schizoid Man, Starless and Thela Hun Ginjeet, each song for each one of them
It was a necessary evil, it got the foot in the door, without which there would never have been The Bends (... without which there would never have been OK Computer, and so on and so on)
Speaking of Steven Wilson.... You should check out Opeth. I'd suggest The Drapery Falls, mostly because I love the bass on that track. Or if you want to do a 12 minute track with a lot of fun basslines, Blackwater Park. Steven Wilson produced the albums both those tracks came from.
Should react to something by title fight live, like a ritual 2013 in Baltimore rlly capture the emotion behind the bass player and vocalist Ned russin gives every single song. Another good one is secret society live.
A lot of people still reduce Radiohead to Creep. Some other people stopped at OK Computer and then gave up on them because their music became "too weird". It's great to see other musicians "discovering" them again.
I was once told that the worst candidates for the study of Architecture were builders, or anyone who thinks about structural integrity before they think about aesthetics.
You will get this comment a lot... Please, do yourself the favor of checking out the full In Rainbows album live version From the Basement... my favorite bass line being in the song Weird Fishes... great video. Keep 'em comin'
@@jameshannagan4256 Technically, I did say "Floyd" ;). I do love and respect the Beatles. I just don't listen to them as much as the other bands listed.
I dont know where you take suggestions..but i recommend "Eagle Fly Free" by Helloween off the Keeper of the 7 keys album.. Bass is off the chain....80's
In Rainbows, by Radiohead is in the Top 5 of albums of the 21st Century! Check this incredible song out, live is always better with Radiohead… th-cam.com/video/pcEJyvv6_kc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CkZT_Bi-5xzkV3QT
can u react to more king gizzard songs here are some of the best basslines in gizz history (beginner's luck/superposition/deserted dunes welcome weary feet/dusk to dawn on lygon street) my personal fave are beginners luck and deserted dunes
You should check out the number 1 album in that list! Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp A Butterfly is full of amazing musical soundscapes and awesome basslines!
"Creep" came out 30 years ago and the band members themselves will tell you that that song has never been emblematic of what Radiohead are or do. Even in _Pablo Honey_ that song was kind of sui generis. It's not like it didn't fit, it just sounded different. It's generic and derivative, two things that Radiohead, apart from that first album, never have been. In any case, it's no wonder that they divorced themselves from the song for a very long time, and even now they rarely play it. So to judge this band by the merits (or lack thereof) of a non-representative song written over 30 years ago and rarely played for over 25 years, is a disservice to yourself as a musician and music enthusiast. One last thing about "Creep". I don't dislike the song, but its source material, The Hollies' "The Air That I Breathe" is a far superior song , and as far as interpretations go, Prince's 2008 cover is way better.
I wish radiohead fans hadn't put me off to their music for my entire time in high school and college. Their music is excellent but they have far and away the most pretentious and elitist fans i've ever encountered
In Rainbows is a special album where the musical notes just fall into place.
one may say, everything is in it’s right place.
@lol20422 you're picking up what I'm putting down. 😅
@@Redrum2381Radiohead jokes are never a Let Down
@@EricStevens-u8r underrated song
like jigsaws?
As a bassist, Colin is worth exploring. If I were to recommend a next Radiohead song with an interesting use of bass, I'd suggest Airbag, but really, any musician should explore their whole discography. There's simply too much original gold to miss out on.
Basado
This entire album has beautiful bass playing in it. Colin is like the Ringo of bass players in that he serves the song so well, but this album in particular has a lot of great bass grooves on it. The rhythm section has been the secret weapon for Radiohead for so many years and the drummer always seems to have a different approach for every song and so does Colin.
The fact that Phil can go from the lush jazz drumming of “Pyramid Song” or “You and Whose Army” to the high energy rock attack of “Paranoid Android” to the machine-like precision of “Weird Fishes” without breaking a sweat is why he’s an all-time great drummer, even if he’s not as flashy as many of his contemporaries.
Colin is the king of serving the song
Nude is one of the simplistic, yet impactful bass lines. It's the one I always think about when it comes to Colin's work.
yes! nude! my favorite radiohead song! been a fan for decades now! nude is tops!
They did a live version of this album on from the basement. Highly recommended
Yep. I suggested he check out "15 Step" from that same session.
@AllofJudea , Yeah, I always respected Radiohead, even saw them during their Pablo Honey tour back in the day with the band Belly. I had heard OK Computer and The Bends and respected them, but they just didn't grab me personally. One day I was flipping through channels and came across a channel showing "In Rainbows Live from the Basement" in its entirety and watching that made me fall in love with the album.
From the Basement is top notch. Nigel Godrich is amazing. It is the best recorded live performance of Radiohead. The latest season with Idles is amazing.
@@WordAte Absolutely - saw Idles live about a month ago - one of the best gigs I've been to. I'd add The Kills and The Raconteurs to that list too. Saw an interview with Nigel where he said the From the Basement sessions just became too expensive to continue - real shame.
the beat goes round and round
8:45
THE BEAT GOES ROOOUUND AAAND ROUND
My absolute favourite band. Would love to see more Radiohead reaction/analysis on the channel.
@@rupe82 ya hear that Mark!!?
You have to check out more Radiohead. Colin Greenwood is one of the most creative, fluid, and *tasteful* bassists in rock history. His work in songs like “Airbag,” “How to Disappear Completely,” and “15 Step” elevate those songs to something otherworldly.
Love the bass in this song and the whole album. Any time I put this album on I am instantly in a better mood despite the dark vibes. The bass is usually understated and tasteful in this band but they are well worth digging more into! There's usually a lot more going on than you realize at first.
ive seen a lot of great musicians live and the Radiohead shows I saw were some of the best and most memorable shows of my entire life
Yes they really are so fantastic live and it's a shame that not that many people know it.
Check out Airbag sometime. It’s not technically difficult, but challenging in the spacing and what he doesn’t play, that makes it an interesting bass line. Colin says it’s his favorite one to play live.
In a song that perfectly intertwines three guitars Colin somehow manages to steal the show for me on that track
As a 15 year old obsessed with punk and alt rock when I was introduced to Radiohead circa 1999, “Airbag” blew me away immediately for its use of sonic space, and Colin’s immaculately sparse bass line, constantly popping in and out and yet ever-changing, is a huge part of how the band achieves that feeling.
Love that you called out how the song subtly builds in intensity! In Rainbows has some of the most beautiful productions I've ever heard.
This whole album, including the live From The Basement session, is an absolute masterpiece
In Rainbows is in my top ten favorite albums of all time.
Are the other nine all Radiohead albums too?
@ 1 is Kid A. 1 is Amnesiac.
@@zenzenzen4741not a fan of Ok Computer? 😅
It's in my top 5 actually along with at least one other Radiohead album but I love all their albums outside the first one which was a decent alt-rock album but nothing compared with all their albums.
@@jinokar ok computer has some great songs but I had to make room in my top ten for album’s like Siamese Dream!
Colin is one of the most under-rated bassists in the world, in my opinion - he sits in the back being a legend which allows the rest of the band to be even more legendary.
EDIT: Michael Palmisano said EXACTLY the same as you at the end - Radiohead not being a band he really explored, not because he didn't like them but just because he came from a very different musical world. But everyone in music who dives into them really enjoyes their technicality and intricacy in how they construct their music
Great to hear some *Radiohead!*
I gave Radiohead a fair chance a long time ago but it just did not stick.....
Until I watched them playing this album from the basement. Its an amazing performance.
If you've never seen The King Of Limbs live from the basement it's almost as good as the In Rainbows session. It's a bit more proggish in a way but really amazing and I suggest you check it out.
@@jameshannagan4256 I think The King Of Limbs session is better from the perspective that the In Rainbows session brilliantly emulates the album, where as The King Of Limbs session is an elevatory transformation (especially the first 5 album tracks that utilised more programming). But yeah the In Rainbows session has better songs (even though Codex is a masterpiece and its brass section in the basement session is incredibly tasteful).
Colin's work has always been like "this stuff of Thom's is cool, now allow me to make it even better", same goes for the other band members. Thom is blessed to have them.
Dude, you gotta do "15 Step" from this same album. Check out the From the Basement live performance of it. It takes a bit for the bass to come in, but once it does it grooves so hard.
People that think the Basement versions are better than the studio versions have issues. That type of RH fan that needs to feel special for liking RH.
@@mr.nihilz3283 Some of them are and some of them aren't.
@@mr.nihilz3283Phenomenally bad take
@@agateforghosts291 Non sense. In Rainbows is perfection. Go make some trail mix.
@@mr.nihilz3283 k
No one song will ever give you a picture of what Radiohead is going. You could pick any other song and think it's a complete other band. They never repeat themselves, so everything is a re-invention, a stir of the pot. They constantly force themselves out of their comfort zones for a reason. Listen to the bass in the song Nude for example. It was the key that unlocked that song that they sat on for 10 years because they couldn't get it right. And then the bass line brought the song to life, and it's one of the greatest songs.
The bass line for “Nude” is so brilliant in its simplicity. Mostly octaves, nothing a beginner couldn’t play after a bit of practice. And yet, as you said, it was the key that elevated a song that the band had been sitting on for 10 frickin’ *years* into one of the brightest spots in their entire catalogue.
Radiohead is the most important band of the alternative rock genres.
More Radiohead!
I would love for you to do a album progression with Radiohead similar to what you're doing with Primus.
I’m down!
Radiohead have had genre descriptives like jazz and electronica fused to their versions of alt-rock... but In Rainbows is largely a soul album. Line up half the album with some 70s Stevie or Sly or Curtis and the arrangements make a ton of sense. There's nothing blue-eyed about it either. It's pretty thick. Their other descriptives are still there, along with experimental, but the soul is very noticeable and especially cued by bass.
I consider myself mostly a metalhead but I grew up on punk. That being said the part of me that is obsessed with songwriting adores The Pixies branch of punk and indie rock and Radiohead is one of my favorites of this branch of the music tree. I love the chances they take in their chord progressions and how they'll do Pixies style time signatures, where they are odd but so musical you don't really notice how odd they are. Really really great band.
Unless i'm specifically looking for it I never notice them playing in odd time sigs because it seems very natural and unforced and i'm glad i'm not the only person who noticed that.
One of the great things about Radiohead, very much including the bass, is that they're not afraid to play something *really freaking cool*, and then move on to the next part of the song without repeating something over and over. They don't need to beat you over the head with a repetitive bassline (though they're not above that, either) and trust you to get it anyways.
love a bit of Colin
Nothing with Radiohead isn't intentional, every sound is incredibly well thought out and gets it's moment to shine, they're very deliberate with everything they do and actually quite fun if you're into theory, in fact they're almost proggy in a lot of ways. Even sounds and dissonant background sounds are incredibly well thought out and that's why they take years to make albums and you just have to wait just like Tool who they remind me of in more ways than you would think even though they sound nothing alike, they're kind of like the yang to Tool's Yin in a way.
Really enjoyed this reaction/study. You have many albums , this , Ok, The Bends, Moon Shaped Pool to really be moved by the arrangements , the instruments, note choices on and on. Plus the lyrical content tied to it all. Thanks and Enjoy.
You really need to listen to more songs from this epic record
Great video! Would love to see more Radiohead!
Next time please🙏
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Great track to showcase the bassist here, and yes I always noticed the occasional unison with vocals which I find so tasty. Radiohead is pretty unique, no doubt
One of Colins great tricks is playing eight notes on the 'and' which gives a very subtle off kilter feel to a track
Radiohead are masters of the slow build! I also pretty much missed Radiohead in real time back in the day, but went through the discography last year... what a treat!!!!
the stacato bass play on this song is blow my mind, makin the groove more powerfull
i love your thoughts on colins playing, really thought-provoking and valuable for me, beginner musician
Despite what other people will tell you, In Rainbows is actually Radiohead's best album
More Radiohead, so many good bass riffs! ❤
Dude you’ve got to check out this entire album it’s amazing
Cool you discovered Radiohead, they are very technical and instrument orientated. For something heavier try "Body snatchers" from same album. Or more layers try out bloom, from the basement version of "the king of limbs"
Thank you for the analysis. I have never listened much to Radiohead before, but as a bassist, I definitely find this interesting to explore and learn from! Seeing your reaction to some Stone Temple Pilots bass lines would be amazing. My top favorites are "Interstate Love Song" and "Trippin' on a Hole in a Paper Heart"
I think you would really like King Crimson! they are an amazing band with amazing bassists
Greg Lake, John Wetton and Tony Levin are all so unique and talented
I would suggest 21st Century Schizoid Man, Starless and Thela Hun Ginjeet, each song for each one of them
I can never get tired of In Rainbows.
Colin shakin his hand before his part in from the Basement is solid
This was a challenge to figure out the tuning let alone get the timing right. In Rainbows is a wonderful record.
Creep is about the least “Radiohead” Radiohead song of all time
I think that's why the band really doesn't like it very much.
It was a necessary evil, it got the foot in the door, without which there would never have been The Bends (... without which there would never have been OK Computer, and so on and so on)
More radiohead please
Collin greenwood is awesome
Speaking of Steven Wilson.... You should check out Opeth. I'd suggest The Drapery Falls, mostly because I love the bass on that track. Or if you want to do a 12 minute track with a lot of fun basslines, Blackwater Park.
Steven Wilson produced the albums both those tracks came from.
Check out Weird Fishes by Radiohead (From the Basement)
Should react to something by title fight live, like a ritual 2013 in Baltimore rlly capture the emotion behind the bass player and vocalist Ned russin gives every single song. Another good one is secret society live.
You'd love Deck's Dark by them - upvote the shit out of this guys!
The band totally changed with their album Kid A
A lot of people still reduce Radiohead to Creep. Some other people stopped at OK Computer and then gave up on them because their music became "too weird". It's great to see other musicians "discovering" them again.
Definitely should try "celebration song" by unwritten law, was blown away first time i heard it.
Like the tone Mark!
In rainbows is their best album by miles and I will die on that hill
I was once told that the worst candidates for the study of Architecture were builders, or anyone who thinks about structural integrity before they think about aesthetics.
Hi, please do Reckoner from the same album. Colin Greenwood is the man
3:44, sneaky Pink Floyd "one of these days" bass lesson.
"Weird Fishes/Arpeggi" is a killer track off this album. Much more interesting musically to me than this song.
There woukd be no Porcupine Tree without RADIOHEAD
You will get this comment a lot...
Please, do yourself the favor of checking out the full In Rainbows album live version From the Basement... my favorite bass line being in the song Weird Fishes... great video. Keep 'em comin'
Try a song called Bodysnatchers, but live from the basement, it's kind of prog-punk almost and i think that might be right up your alley.
I would so recommend the band YES the songs..Close to the edge & Awakened.
Favorite bands are Led Zeppelin, Porcupine Tree, Floyd, Radiohead, Tool, Queens OTSA. Radiohead is worth your time.
I love every one of those bands and it's kind of scary how you listed just about all my favorite bands minus The Beatles and Pink Floyd.
@@jameshannagan4256 Technically, I did say "Floyd" ;). I do love and respect the Beatles. I just don't listen to them as much as the other bands listed.
I dont know where you take suggestions..but i recommend "Eagle Fly Free" by Helloween off the Keeper of the 7 keys album.. Bass is off the chain....80's
I would love to see a reaction to IOWA by Slipknot sometime!
Love the timing of this comment. Actually playing a Slipknot tribute set for NYE! Been fun diving into all these riffs.
I would love to see footage of the performance or just anything regarding how you tackle their material! @@LowEndUniversity
In Rainbows, by Radiohead is in the Top 5 of albums of the 21st Century!
Check this incredible song out, live is always better with Radiohead… th-cam.com/video/pcEJyvv6_kc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CkZT_Bi-5xzkV3QT
can u react to more king gizzard songs here are some of the best basslines in gizz history (beginner's luck/superposition/deserted dunes welcome weary feet/dusk to dawn on lygon street) my personal fave are beginners luck and deserted dunes
My all time fav Radiohead song.
This is a great play along with tabs: th-cam.com/video/JBAr0nquCHE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Vp8Ik1INi1AJVNkg
You should check out the number 1 album in that list! Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp A Butterfly is full of amazing musical soundscapes and awesome basslines!
But no matter what, the most mindfuck bass line to learn from the entire radoihead discography is Airbag. It only has 4 notes to play
Please react to Manifest Destiny by Jamiroquai, Stuart Zender is a genius and this track shows off his skills
You should do a review of a new band called flagman
1981 by Green Day
Please do “Grab ‘em By The Pyongyang” by Nuclear Power Trio 🙏
First Fishbone, now Radiohead. Nice!
Seeing your confused expression and Radiohead in the thumbnail made me click ha ha
"Creep" came out 30 years ago and the band members themselves will tell you that that song has never been emblematic of what Radiohead are or do. Even in _Pablo Honey_ that song was kind of sui generis. It's not like it didn't fit, it just sounded different. It's generic and derivative, two things that Radiohead, apart from that first album, never have been. In any case, it's no wonder that they divorced themselves from the song for a very long time, and even now they rarely play it. So to judge this band by the merits (or lack thereof) of a non-representative song written over 30 years ago and rarely played for over 25 years, is a disservice to yourself as a musician and music enthusiast.
One last thing about "Creep". I don't dislike the song, but its source material, The Hollies' "The Air That I Breathe" is a far superior song , and as far as interpretations go, Prince's 2008 cover is way better.
Best Radiohead reaction th-cam.com/video/dJLbuvYP2kE/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Day 13 of asking for a Million Bucks by ALL
I wish radiohead fans hadn't put me off to their music for my entire time in high school and college. Their music is excellent but they have far and away the most pretentious and elitist fans i've ever encountered
I'd argue Steely Dan fans are much worse, but also far rarer so you don't have to deal with them nearly as often as you do Radiohead!
Even more pretentious than the fans of Apple products? 🤣
@ there’s def some overlap lol