I read that Daini and Suwa were encouraged to be in healthy competition with each other, for the purposes of encouraging innovation. Good corporate strategy.
Actually, the separation between Suwa and Daini is older than that. In 1937, Hattori sons decided to separate the production of clock and watches so they created Daini Seikosha ("the second Seikosha") where they would make only watches in Kameido (neighborhood of Tokyo) whereas Seikosha produced only clocks in the original factory on the other side of the river (they would deliver parts by bike from time to time). Then came WW2 and they invested in a subcontractor (Daiwa Kogyo) in Suwa in 1942 in case they had to move operations away from Tokyo. In 1944, they began moving machines and employees to Suwa and in 1945, the Daini Seikosha plant in Tokyo was bombed and they lost a lot of employees. Everyone was moved to Suwa and the plant was called Daini Seikosha Suwa, as it was still Daini Seikosha but they moved their operation to Suwa. This is how the great Tsuneya Nakamura ended up in Suwa. Daiwa Kogyo and Daini Seikosha Suwa merged in 1959 under the name Suwa Seikosha. Operations had already started back again in Tokyo for Daini Seikosha with their original Daini Seikosha name. But Suwa had already started producing amazing watches that really changed the history of the group, including the Marvel in 56, the Lord Marvel in 58 or the Crown and Gyromarvel in 59. This is actually important because back in the 50s, there was already a friendly rivalry between Suwa and Daini that started with the Super (Suwa) that was more modern and better made than their usual after-war production. Then Daini released the Unique, basically the same watch but... 0.3 mm thinner ! Then Suwa released the Marvel that settled the scores. The rivalry was real and Suwa was considered the new-comer. So when they were chosen to create and produce Grand Seiko, Daini decided they would also create their high-end brand that would be rival to Grand Seiko: King Seiko. And things only continue from then on... But yes, Suwa/Epson has always been the innovative company, IMHO mostly thanks to Tsuneya Nakamura. Daini/SII has always been more traditional. All the big break-throughs came from Nakamura (the magic-lever, the hi-beat, the '64 stopwatches, the VFA, the chronometry trials victory and of course the quartz). So IMHO, 1964 was not when the two brands were separated but it was the most intense time fo their rivalry ! Starting in 1966, Daini got to produce GSs (44GS and 45GS) and King Seiko was positioned a step under Grand Seiko, which kinda halted the rivalry. But still today, employees from Epson and SII consider they work for two different companies (which they actually do) and they share almost nothing. And the two plants didn't got separated to future-proof themselves in the 60s, but to make sure Seiko doesn't get completely annihilated by Tokyo bombings ! But yeah, future-proofing it is ;) Great video, thanks for sharing all that !! (And sorry for the super long post, but the Daini VS Suwa thing is super interesting and important to understand the brand and quite complicated...)
Oh and Suwa and Daini still exist, they were just renamed along the years ! And Grand Seiko doesn't exactly do their own things, it was just a marketing move, they are still made by the Shinshu Watch Studio at Seiko Epson (former Suwa Seikosha, still in Suwa, Nagano) for the quartz and Spring Drive, and by the Shizukuishi Watch Studio at Seiko Instruments Inc (former Daini Seikosha, now moved to Morioka, Iwate but still have offices and super super high-end Credor stuff in Tokyo) ;)
Very helpful video. Makes playing with watches more fun, and a family thing with your wife helping out, and your daughter cameo appearance. One thing i like best about Seiko is that somehow they are able to make big watches look and wear small. It would be most helpful if you could, in your next 101, talks about dimensions to guide us into watches we may have missed due to misguided information due to lack of direct experiences playing with these watches. Thank you.
My 6139-6017 is Suwa with a Daini case back and as of this week, a Klein crystal. I knew it came new with that caseback but always wondered why. Thanks again for the quick shipping on my crystal. You guys rock!!
According to Wikipedia, the Epson printer business came about because the IOC for the first time required printed time records from the official time keeper at the ‘64 Olympics. Seiko took this role very seriously and developed the electronic printing tech in-house. Hence, “Electronic Printer-son”. Epson!
The case number is the first three digits of the second 4 number grouping. The fourth digit of this group is the market that the watch was intended for. (eg 9 for USA).
Great content. Really enjoyed it. It would be interesting to talk about the early Seiko Quartz watch models also. I picked up an inexpensive Quartz model #4004 and for a ‘70s Quartz the detailed textured dial and accuracy of this watch is awesome.
Interesting video, thanks. Post-WW2 recasing of pre-war watches was quite common in many Eastern European countries (1) due to the lack of production capabilities and (2) the availability of watches that had been stripped of the cases during the war for the metal. This practice stopped in the late 1940s/early 1950s, when many of the countries' communist regimes were starting their own production for the domestic market, f.ex. PRIM in Czechoslovakia.
Love the content guys and your high tech lesson capture (old sharpie and white pad). :) I wonder if a modern comparison would be the way that GM ran its various divisions prior to the bailout. Their product development was somewhat cannibalistic especially during the muscle car era of the 1960s - early 1970s. Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile would share a platform but have different engines and bodywork and so were often competing for the same customer base. So if I wanted a hot mid-sized muscle car I might look at the Olds 442, Pontiac GTO, Chevy Chevelle SS, or the Buick GS series. Sometimes this type of product development works and sometimes it doesn't. Great content, please keep it up. Oh - you should restore that 7017 Spencer. I have my 7017-6020 as my only Daini chrono and I really love wearing it. Its very different from my 6138/6139s that you restored for me.
Thanks so much for the video. I want to know when did seiko made every movement. Like the 7S26 and when did they start naming the watches. Because my watch just says 7009 and I've been trying to find the model number in the Internet and I couldn't find the watch that I have.
Actually the modern model number (letters+digits) existed in the 70's as well, you can see them on the older catalogs. It's just before the internet, people got used to calling them by the number stamped on the casebook.
I have a 1969 Seiko 6220-8990 "Skyline" 17 jewel manual wind with the Suwa Logo on the Dial but the movement says "Daini Seikosha Co, LTD". It's so confusing... Do I have a Daini or a Suwa? Oh well, it's awesome!
Just a follow up on my previous statement that you have a "cult-like following". I hope you realize that many of Seiko models you showcase in your videos many Seiko collectors will try to acquire. Now I want a 7017-6050. You are an enabler of the Seiko collecting frenzy!
This is my own perception about Suwa vs Daini. Suwa came up with innovative or "firsts" in the watch world such as 5740, 6139 and so on, they also make workhorse movements like 6309/6. I would reach and say the Daini factory is more refined and better finishes. It's like suwa came out with the "firsts" and Daini refined it. ie, 5740 vs 4500 or 6138/9 vs7018 or 5626 vs 6146. I was wondering if you would agree or if you had our own opinion on the matter?
Seems to me like Daini ended up with dominance over the modern movements, but Suwa ended up with dominance over modern case and dial design -- many modern Seikos seem to be derived from aesthetic designs put out from Suwa (SKX, SRP, etc.) Very much enjoyed this style of video. I would like to hear some information about the 6458 mov't -- You have some content on them, but not much, and I'm sure you have plenty to share!
I must be a nerd, as I find this absolutely fascinating. Thank you for posting.
I read that Daini and Suwa were encouraged to be in healthy competition with each other, for the purposes of encouraging innovation. Good corporate strategy.
Actually, the separation between Suwa and Daini is older than that.
In 1937, Hattori sons decided to separate the production of clock and watches so they created Daini Seikosha ("the second Seikosha") where they would make only watches in Kameido (neighborhood of Tokyo) whereas Seikosha produced only clocks in the original factory on the other side of the river (they would deliver parts by bike from time to time).
Then came WW2 and they invested in a subcontractor (Daiwa Kogyo) in Suwa in 1942 in case they had to move operations away from Tokyo. In 1944, they began moving machines and employees to Suwa and in 1945, the Daini Seikosha plant in Tokyo was bombed and they lost a lot of employees. Everyone was moved to Suwa and the plant was called Daini Seikosha Suwa, as it was still Daini Seikosha but they moved their operation to Suwa. This is how the great Tsuneya Nakamura ended up in Suwa.
Daiwa Kogyo and Daini Seikosha Suwa merged in 1959 under the name Suwa Seikosha. Operations had already started back again in Tokyo for Daini Seikosha with their original Daini Seikosha name. But Suwa had already started producing amazing watches that really changed the history of the group, including the Marvel in 56, the Lord Marvel in 58 or the Crown and Gyromarvel in 59.
This is actually important because back in the 50s, there was already a friendly rivalry between Suwa and Daini that started with the Super (Suwa) that was more modern and better made than their usual after-war production. Then Daini released the Unique, basically the same watch but... 0.3 mm thinner ! Then Suwa released the Marvel that settled the scores.
The rivalry was real and Suwa was considered the new-comer. So when they were chosen to create and produce Grand Seiko, Daini decided they would also create their high-end brand that would be rival to Grand Seiko: King Seiko. And things only continue from then on...
But yes, Suwa/Epson has always been the innovative company, IMHO mostly thanks to Tsuneya Nakamura. Daini/SII has always been more traditional. All the big break-throughs came from Nakamura (the magic-lever, the hi-beat, the '64 stopwatches, the VFA, the chronometry trials victory and of course the quartz).
So IMHO, 1964 was not when the two brands were separated but it was the most intense time fo their rivalry ! Starting in 1966, Daini got to produce GSs (44GS and 45GS) and King Seiko was positioned a step under Grand Seiko, which kinda halted the rivalry. But still today, employees from Epson and SII consider they work for two different companies (which they actually do) and they share almost nothing.
And the two plants didn't got separated to future-proof themselves in the 60s, but to make sure Seiko doesn't get completely annihilated by Tokyo bombings ! But yeah, future-proofing it is ;)
Great video, thanks for sharing all that !! (And sorry for the super long post, but the Daini VS Suwa thing is super interesting and important to understand the brand and quite complicated...)
Oh and Suwa and Daini still exist, they were just renamed along the years ! And Grand Seiko doesn't exactly do their own things, it was just a marketing move, they are still made by the Shinshu Watch Studio at Seiko Epson (former Suwa Seikosha, still in Suwa, Nagano) for the quartz and Spring Drive, and by the Shizukuishi Watch Studio at Seiko Instruments Inc (former Daini Seikosha, now moved to Morioka, Iwate but still have offices and super super high-end Credor stuff in Tokyo) ;)
@@arnauda5311 great informative comment. Thank you for the knowledge.
Thx
Very helpful video. Makes playing with watches more fun, and a family thing with your wife helping out, and your daughter cameo appearance.
One thing i like best about Seiko is that somehow they are able to make big watches look and wear small. It would be most helpful if you could, in your next 101, talks about dimensions to guide us into watches we may have missed due to misguided information due to lack of direct experiences playing with these watches. Thank you.
Love this new educational series that brings more context. Thanks !
My 6139-6017 is Suwa with a Daini case back and as of this week, a Klein crystal. I knew it came new with that caseback but always wondered why.
Thanks again for the quick shipping on my crystal. You guys rock!!
According to Wikipedia, the Epson printer business came about because the IOC for the first time required printed time records from the official time keeper at the ‘64 Olympics. Seiko took this role very seriously and developed the electronic printing tech in-house. Hence, “Electronic Printer-son”. Epson!
The case number is the first three digits of the second 4 number grouping. The fourth digit of this group is the market that the watch was intended for. (eg 9 for USA).
Great information! Thanks!!👊🏼
Great content. Really enjoyed it. It would be interesting to talk about the early Seiko Quartz watch models also. I picked up an inexpensive Quartz model #4004 and for a ‘70s Quartz the detailed textured dial and accuracy of this watch is awesome.
Interesting video, thanks. Post-WW2 recasing of pre-war watches was quite common in many Eastern European countries (1) due to the lack of production capabilities and (2) the availability of watches that had been stripped of the cases during the war for the metal. This practice stopped in the late 1940s/early 1950s, when many of the countries' communist regimes were starting their own production for the domestic market, f.ex. PRIM in Czechoslovakia.
Love the content guys and your high tech lesson capture (old sharpie and white pad). :) I wonder if a modern comparison would be the way that GM ran its various divisions prior to the bailout. Their product development was somewhat cannibalistic especially during the muscle car era of the 1960s - early 1970s. Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile would share a platform but have different engines and bodywork and so were often competing for the same customer base. So if I wanted a hot mid-sized muscle car I might look at the Olds 442, Pontiac GTO, Chevy Chevelle SS, or the Buick GS series. Sometimes this type of product development works and sometimes it doesn't. Great content, please keep it up. Oh - you should restore that 7017 Spencer. I have my 7017-6020 as my only Daini chrono and I really love wearing it. Its very different from my 6138/6139s that you restored for me.
Great content guys keep up the good work 👍
Thanks so much for the video. I want to know when did seiko made every movement. Like the 7S26 and when did they start naming the watches. Because my watch just says 7009 and I've been trying to find the model number in the Internet and I couldn't find the watch that I have.
You represent Seiko every day! I'm jealous!
Actually the modern model number (letters+digits) existed in the 70's as well, you can see them on the older catalogs. It's just before the internet, people got used to calling them by the number stamped on the casebook.
very instructive, thanks guys
Glad it was helpful!
I have a 1969 Seiko 6220-8990 "Skyline" 17 jewel manual wind with the Suwa Logo on the Dial but the movement says "Daini Seikosha Co, LTD". It's so confusing... Do I have a Daini or a Suwa? Oh well, it's awesome!
I have a Suwa 6309 that is not a dive design. Batons for hour markers, day/date grey dial. Any idea how that came about?
Hi Spencer! What does the 002R2 in the dial of my SKX007K indicate?
That my friend is a very very rare SKX indeed it’s known as the Star Wars watch. Believed to be made by R2-D2 twin brother 02-R2
Thanks a lot, in the end which one is more collectible now?
Suwa
Awesome video I have to Old Seiko daney watches good to know that they will from Japan thank you so much
Did I see a G-Shock in your watch box? 😂
Thank you, Spencer.
Which Daini would you chose to complete your collection ?
Just a follow up on my previous statement that you have a "cult-like following". I hope you realize that many of Seiko models you showcase in your videos many Seiko collectors will try to acquire. Now I want a 7017-6050. You are an enabler of the Seiko collecting frenzy!
This is my own perception about Suwa vs Daini. Suwa came up with innovative or "firsts" in the watch world such as 5740, 6139 and so on, they also make workhorse movements like 6309/6. I would reach and say the Daini factory is more refined and better finishes. It's like suwa came out with the "firsts" and Daini refined it. ie, 5740 vs 4500 or 6138/9 vs7018 or 5626 vs 6146. I was wondering if you would agree or if you had our own opinion on the matter?
Thanks very informative
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for this very interesting video.
Seems to me like Daini ended up with dominance over the modern movements, but Suwa ended up with dominance over modern case and dial design -- many modern Seikos seem to be derived from aesthetic designs put out from Suwa (SKX, SRP, etc.)
Very much enjoyed this style of video.
I would like to hear some information about the 6458 mov't -- You have some content on them, but not much, and I'm sure you have plenty to share!
What year did they start marking the factory used?
My 1965 Seiko has no company marking but my early 70s Seiko's are all Daini.
I prefer Seiko than any swiss watch all day
I hope Spencer doesn't displace watch parts like he does letters
very helpful.
Daini in Japanese would be prounounced more like Die Knee:)
Who would "dislike" this?? People baffle me. Supreme video as always, guys. I'd like to see what the 'disliker' can come up with for a vid!
Seiko nerds so not cool
lmao she lost it **olypmics