Juggle points and limits have always been a bit confusing to me in SFV and SF6. It was a little frustrating learning rashid in SF6 because it took me so long to figure out why combos worked only sometimes. A juggle counter or something in training mode would be very helpful.
Absolutely, feels like just trying moves until you find the one the developers wanted you to pick up the juggle with, very unintuitive but I understand why it exists
I haven't played a lot of fighters but Strive has had the most intuitive juggle system because it's straight up height dependent, and you get a sense of which moves send characters upwards and how fast they fall when the juggle state gets higher. I would appreciate the training mode option since street fighter characters dont fall in the same way but while moves have these arbitrary juggle amounts, the only other thing you can do is a special animation when you can no longer juggle them (like the spin in Melee)
OMFG just realized that that's why I hate playing SF so much, like gear really just lets you freestyle your comboes and it feels so intuitive and flexible for what moves will and wont work...
The concept of juggle points was new to me coming from Tekken and I only understand what it is because of Punch Planet. Punch Planet actually displays your available juggle count right underneath it's combo counter and generally gives the player a lot more information than SF does.
Deejay and T. Hawk were both characters that capcom basically never paid much attention to throughout all of SF history. DJ gets a loving redesign in 6 to finally make him a real character, T. Hawk gets Lilly, poor bastard.
Honestly, I always thought as long as guile was in the game Deejay would be useless. Guile honestly could just do everything better with the minor exception that Deejay has quicker Anti-Airs. Deejay having the ability to fake out the Opponent with Kicks and Projectiles especially in a meter driven game like SF6 works poetically but T.Hawk/Lily lacks inspiration.
When you look at all the sauce that the DLC characters have, it really does feel like certain characters like Lily, Manon, Marisa etc... were designed early and never got the second pass.
@@TheGreektrojan Kinda yes but at the same time they spent on not just the design and gameplay of the characters but the stages for each of them and that's not to also include the other new characters(JP, Jaime, Kimberly) they put in the same amount of time creating them.
No no no. You're all wrong. Lily was designed to be very VERY simple to use. Pure and simple. She is still a viable tournament character. Some (not all) of the buffs ppl are begging for would defeat the purpose of having a SIMPLE TO USE character.
That makes sense lol I can see the dev team doing that. I'm sure many a fighting game dev has done so with many characters over the years. I'm looking at Bowser and Mewtwo from Smash Bros Melee.
Sticks from Sonic look'n, recoler Teen Titans Jynx look'n.Talem from Soulcalibur look'n,wind look'n. Wwe grapple spam look'n. Past your* bedtime look'n.
If we’re talking gameplay in the returning cast Blanka doll makes blanka’s addition entirely worth it. It interacts with so many parts of his kit and makes some of the coolest combos in the game. It’s the spice the character needed and the only reason I play him honestly
That and his v skill stance from v give another layer in his movement for neutral as well Along with the air blanka balls and how it interacts with his lvl 2 Yeah I agree he’s extremely fun
SF6 Zangief reminds me of Continuum Shift Tager. He's a usable character that can do stuff, but none of his buttons work like you think they would and sometimes his moves don’t work how they should.
@zackswitch9656 He's the only Grappler I can think of that doesn't have a tool specifically to counter zoning. Lariat is projectile invuln, but it's really bad at anti-zoning
As someone that's played World Tour, there are like 3 cutscenes and a bunch of screenshots/text dialogue for the characters. It doesn't seem like it would be a lot of resources or time at all.
As for time spent in development, there's going to be different people working on different aspects. World tour content probably adds zero actual delay to their release schedules.
It's legit just: A cutscene that they use for promotion anyways, moveset that the singleplayer character can use (which is already developed, just need to adjust to the model rigging), and a couple of drawings and text dialogue. That ideally takes maybe a week at most 😂😂
unless ofc that part of development is delayed. But yeah as long as things are going correctly than single player content should get in the way too much.
The aki thing about the juggle state blew my mind. Actually bonkers the game doesn’t tell you anywhere. The juggle system has been my #1 biggest issue since sf6 is my first street fighter and I feel like I can’t free flow juggle combos.
4:25 My boy SEAN deserves a redesign. Capcom did him SO DIRTY in 3rd strike. Bring him back! Look how cool they made ED look. SEAN DESERVES THIS LEVEL OF LOVE
Sean was a filler character made in a pretty pathetic attempt at capcom to capture the "urban" scene in the 90s. You see a bit of it in the twins skateboarding and rollerblading as well. Sean is not an interesting or appealing character, if they want a new shoto apprentice, they should just retcon him out of the series and have Ken's son Mel be his successor. Sean's Sister was awful too.
@@spitfiremanlizerd Kinda true ngl. "Oh another shoto character with the same fighting style, How unoriginal!" Like personally Sean was cool in SF3 but that was for that game specifically, how he'll do in the modern era in SF6 is hard to say for me. And hey his sister maybe awful but damn is she hot and so is her gameplay.
@@spitfiremanlizerd I think you are inadvertently advocating for Sean if he's a pathetic urban appeal character. Urban aesthetic is in your face in SF6.
24:10 I totally agree with the juggle system being archaic. For all the tutorials and training mode visualizations the game has, it has 0 explanations about how juggling works. Even basic things like "DR normals can juggle" is completely non-discoverable and you just have to find that out yourself and wonder why it actually works until you read it up on a wiki about juggle limit or something. Even most wikis don't have detailed breakdown of the exact juggle properties of the moves. Given how important juggling is for a lot of combos this seems like a miss.
This will blow your mind then. There was a time when nobody knew that Ryu had a fireball. No manuals or guides told you, the game didn't tell you. We found it ourselves. Back when people did things for themselves and called it "fun"
"games should have less information so you don't know what you're doing because trying to learn more about a game so you can do better isn't how you have fun"@@gavinpowell4607
22:58 the fact that you get music tracks in the battle pass and can't use them in ranked needs to be looked at. Tekken's jukebox is a brilliant feature that this game needs too, instead of a very below average music player (also, the NERDS Clothing tracks dont work, which is a damn shame, because I like these way better than the rap they went with) The game would be enhanced greatly by putting something like Tekken's jukebox in the game.
It's just eh. Outside of character select screen, Jamie and Zangief themes I can't even remember how any of SF6 music goes. It's not offensively bad, but very unremarkable.
Thats (the tweet in the beginning of the video about the drive gauge being intuitive) Fatality Falcon! used to be the best captain falcon player in smash ultimate
Something else that I want to say that I don't think gets talked about enough is how announcing all the characters that will come in the character pass from the get-go is fucking awesome, and I really appreciate it. I'm super excited to see the release of each character because I can get hyped, and with some of the promo material that suggests a character is coming out soon it breathes new life into the hype of the release. Akuma is going to be fucking sick. I wish more games did this.
I love zangief theme, zangief stage theme, lily’s theme and ryu’s theme. I think it’s much better to have a new soundtrack than the 80th remix of songs that got remixed to death since 1980. Because really, I prefer some good tracks and some bad ones than nothing new at all. Also sf6 guile theme is kind of catchy too.
@@aledantih6524 No, it is genuinely bad, and I've listened to it for all of the 400hrs I've been playing. It's composed by committee music of the worst kind. It's so bland and uninteresting. Every modern fighting game has better music, and you'd have to be crazy to say it's better than UNI, Gear, Granblue, or Tekken
@@gwen9939 don't even know any UNI tracks so it can't be that good, Guilty Gear has amazing music but the "Engrish" ruins a lot of the tracks, never even noticed any of the granblue tracks and yeah Tekken probably has better music overall but I still consistently listen to the SF6 tracks over it and some tracks like the character select and menu music are way better than T8
@@pastorofmuppets9346 simply because all 2s, 4s and 5 have the same good songs in the soundtrack (spoiler the ones from sf2). Except something here and there like Seth theme in 5 for me. I would die if I were forced to listen to sf2 themes for the bazillionth time
I feel like an interesting and very simple change for gief is to add one variation to his mp TC. He still has the three chops that work exactly the same and only combo on counter hit, but he’ll also has another option where after the first chop you can hit confirm immediately into the 3rd chop (probably going from standing mp to heavy punch) guaranteeing a knockdown and adding some much needed mid screen pressure
Spot on assessment on Gief. He looks amazing on paper but struggles with consistency because his moves don't work the way you expect them to or have glaring weaknesses that kneecap their usefulness. Wonky level 1 super. Level 2 super that looks like an amazing fireball punish but has short range and so much start-up, some characters have time to recover unless Gief reacts almost instantly to the fireball. Buttons that look good in neutral but don't really convert into anything meaningful and are easily blown up by DI. Chop TC that only combos on punish or counterhit but whiffs at ranges where'd you want to use it. Lariat that looks like it should hit cross-ups but doesn't. Wheel kick that low crushes and hits overhead but is so slow it gets almost no value as either so it gets used for punish counters instead. Gief's problem isn't that he's bad. It's that his kit doesn't work like you think it would.
I'll agree that the chop TC needs to be fixed to work at max range, but I disagree with the other points. Lvl2 is perfectly fine for a fireball punish, and the range is good enough to catch the extended hurtboxes at just-outside midrange. Lvl1 is also a workable anti air if you're fully focused on reacting to enemy jump. Lariat not hitting crossup is a shame, but its problem is not unique. Capcom wants cross-ups to be strong, and zangief is far from the only character whose anti airs get shafted for that reason. If you're looking to low crush, Knee hammer is far more reliable and safer than wheel kick, but that's why wheel kick is so high reward on PC, and the fact that zangief gets a grounded overhead at all is still huge. It could however do with a bit of not being a guaranteed DI on reaction, maybe make it cancelable into super 2
@bartekkko I think at least OD Lariat should hit on cross up. I also think lvl 2 is a bit too slow for a fireball punish. Don't get me wrong, you're right when you said it's a good punish, but you really need to be looking for it/buffering it. As for level 1, like you said, it's good if you're already looking for the jump read, but sometimes it just doesn't work. I think the grab hixbox itself should come out earlier. Overall, I think Gief just needs a few tweaks and he's good to go.
@@bartekkko Bro, Gief having an overhead isn't huge when it's a death on block, easily reactable overhead. Fun fact about the wheel kick. It hits later on crouching opponents. Meaning in situations where you'd get value out of it's properties, it's actively worse than the frame data says it is. You're not catching anyone but the sleepiest of players with it unless you want to risk your life going for the hardest read ever. It's the perfect example of Gief's kit not working like you expect it to. The low crush/overhead property is almost irrelevant to how the attack actually sees use.
Zangief just feels so sad because there's just so many tools that are just outright weird/bad/outclassed. The stomps TC is another example, where it doesn't combo into its last hit, but the second hit is minus on hit. Or how Atomic Buster has an issue with its activation range where it can just whiff after certain options like 6HP. In addition, it's both slow and has poor reach on top of causing him to corner himself. 2HP is a horrendous button, and outclassed in its entirety by his other AAs. It's slow, awkward, and unreliable while being less rewarding than his other high risk AAs. It has no utility in combos or pressure. Then there's just arbitrary downsides like his 2HK knocking the opponent away on hit, so his oki after a sweep is miserable. Or how he's the only one without a cancellable 4f button. Or how he can't do a 3 hit light confirm without EX. Finally, the lack of meterless hit confirms outside of counter hit scenarios, even up close, is awful. Just a little more range/speed on lariat for 6HP 2LP Lariat, or more hitstun on 6HP would help significantly.
I don't think Lily translated well from her concept art to in game. Her face looks so young. It's probably the other way around though, considering how they crafted her mannerisms. She doesn't act her age at all. Compare her to someone like a JP or a Marisa and she just doesn't feel as well thought out.
Also from the waist up she looks like an oversized toddler but from the waist down she's the most stacked woman after Chun and Cammy. And before anyone points it out: I know how creepy that sounds but her introduction in World Tour mode has the mother of all ass shots almost immediately and *I'm not the one responsible for that.*
23:33 THANK YOU for bringing this up lol. I love the 3rd strike soundtrack dearly (been playing the game since a kid), but when I first heard 2nd impact’s soundtrack baked af, I was blown away of how good dnb is and it’s the reason why I got into dnb and so as other genres of music. They need to make more soundtracks as groovy as these 2 examples for future sf6 characters
@@marlinmurrell620same my fav stage is Genbu temple as well. Don’t get me wrong sf6 has some groovy tracks, my fav ones are Jamie’s, Cammy, and Zangief theme and also like Manon and Ryu stage’s themes as well. I just hope that for Season 2 we can get a jukebox or something soon for the music 🙏🏼
I think Brutus is half right. The WT content slows down the release schedule for characters. I'm not a game dev, but I did study a few Unity and Unreal courses, plus I'm assuming it's not wildly different from the regular IT jobs I did worked in. QA is probably the biggest source of delay. Adding the character and making sure their movelist doesn't break anything in such a big setting like WT is a bigger ordeal than people give it credit for. It's just too time consuming for the kind of setting World Tour is built on. But releasing it on different schedules adds its own kind of nightmare when two different teams are working on different things and might break something the other is doing without knowing. I think it adds at least one month to make sure no game-breaking bug is being introduced with the new scope. But with them having to redesign and remodel all characters from the ground up from the previous engine to RE Engine, I don't think we're getting 6 characters per season for at least a couple more years when the SF team gets really comfortable with it.
I think the way I felt is that they should have spread the WW characters out more. Also yeah it is absurd that there isn't a 3rd Strike characters considering SFV built on the story of that. Oh.. I also miss full charge characters. Guile seems to be the only one now. The soundtrack to me is so bad I would want to use a mod to replace almost all the songs.
Everything that's good about her should be nerfed and everything that's bad should be buffed. She is one of the most 1 dimensional fighting game characters ever.
Idk about ever lol. There have been thousands of fighting games before. And T Hawk has an even more 1 dimensional game plan and hes been in at least 5 other games. Half the casts of SF2 and MvC2 are similar, and theres hundreds of characters from lesser known games which could only wish for half the depth Lily has. Shes definitely the worst designed character in the game tho
2nd Impact is the best 3 game. A lot of folks won't wanna hear that though. And some infinites aside (which weren't super easy to do) it's one of the most balanced & fun sf games ever. Too bad it was in Sleeperville. Like other great overlooked games.
I think she's the FANG of this game, and I say this as someone who loves FANG. Like FANG, she's clearly underpowered at launch, but also like FANG, her whole gameplan revolves around getting in people's faces with an obnoxious forward moving + attack that puts you in a 50/50 grab or attack guessing game over and over. FANG was "good" by the end of SFV, but was deeply unfun to play against, and was way too 1-Dimensional to play as.
I like the reply saying "we can all agree Jamie's soundtrack is garbage." Jamie's theme is one of my favorites. I've put it on for people who hadn't played the game, and they thought it was from a Persona game. Even if I personally like the soundtrack tho, some songs become grating over time.
honestly a point for world tour that people forget is that it means that all special moves kind of have to link in to eachother to some extent, making sure everything from every character kinda of vaguely works together sounds like a lot of QA workt hat wouldn't be there otherwise
I think I’m coming around on throw loops being okay to get rid of. Originally, I agreed that they were necessary to counter parry as a wakeup option. But if it’s about guessing what your opponent will do on wakeup and picking an appropriate option to counter that, waiting until you see them flash parry and punish counter throwing them seems reasonable. I guess I’m seeing less of a reason why they’re necessary, and the argument for why they’re not fun makes sense.
People call out Dalhsim, Blanka or Honda undeserving of being in the game, but don't have any problem getting Regular Ryu, Blonde American Ryu and Zoomer Blonde American Ryu, and are super excited to soon also get Demon Ryu and later Schoolgirl Ryu too. Popularity doesn't equal quality, and SF would be a much worse game without characters as distinct and recognizable as Dalhsim or Blanka acting as counterbalance to the shoto army methastasis.
Wait, are there still people like you throwing out this "shoto clones" bullshit in fucking 2024? Lmao None of those characters play remotely similar, yet you thought "yes, let's go the "shitty shoto clones" route? LMAOOOOOO
The idea that some archetypes should be better/worse than others for “game health” is silly and produces forced top/low tiers which tend to be obvious and feel bad to play or fight against. It also sucks when the character you like gets hit with the “fuck you in particular” stick when the devs favorite character has every random niche interaction work in their favor - Gief has so many bugs, jank, and basic issues I think he was the last character made and had very rushed testing. A lot of his basic issues (can’t to lights to meterless special, horrible AAs and supers besides super 3, combos dropping or not juggling when they should, etc) all have such simple fixes that it both frustrates me how they weren’t caught in testing but also makes me hopeful for S2
My hot take is, SF6 is very close on being the best game in the franchise and just need tweaks. Game is overall bonkers fun, netcode is so good the complain in that regard is matchmaking instead of bad conection and crazy rollbacks, characters are very well designed both gameplay and character wise (they made me like honda, who is a character i never gave 2 fucks about), sound design is fantastic with rounds having multiple stemps of the music to reflect what is happening in the fight; hit sounds as good as 3rd strike and hits feeling fantastic, the game is much more better balanced than a lot of games in the genre and even previous street fighter games for first intereation (always remember that after multiple interations sf3 still ended with that chun and yun, and sf4 had yun and yang on arcade edition), and the overall philosophy on making rounds feel umpredictable is so good is the same 3rd strike had to have such a fantastic fighting system. And i'm disregarding extra stuff like world tour being so fun and unique, loads of extra content for the fun of it, dlc characters expanding not only the roaster but single player content aswell, and the whole feel of playing the game for hours being the best in the genre (i love the instant rematch, vs screen faces, custom challenger cards, and crazy effects on screen, game is just visually striking even on potato pcs like mine). Capcom has the best first interation of an sf game right here, they just need to keep the good work, and we will probably be nitpicking dumb stuff like ryu triple nipples on fighting ground splash arts. Oh and please give us more 3rd strike content, because we need to know what happens with the whole gill world domination plot, alex becoming one of the illuminaty, makoto fixing her dad's dojo, sean training to impress ken and so on.
I find the discussion around throw loops in Street Fighter pretty interesting, because I come from FS where throw loops are even stronger, like it's a true 50/50 every time, and it does more damage. But people don't really find them that annoying. I have noticed that it has a lot to do with the risk reward. If you incorrectly guess a throw is coming, you don't take that much damage, around 30%, and you are out of the situation. Also when when you call out a throw, it's potentially round ending interaction, depending on the matchup. So the throw looper has really strong mix there, but are constantly at razors edge. So if someone manages to tho kill with just a throw loop, it's very hype.
i don't even play street fighter but i find your analysis of the drive system (in all your vids) really measured and informative. i'm new to fighting games, so seeing someone analyze a game's mechanics (especially one as elegant as sf6 drive) is SUPER helpful. if sf6 ever adds a female shoto, i'll be ready to dive back in!
She does need a redesign...I find her to be the lamest character on the roster. Wouldve rather had C.Viper, Dudley or anyone else on the launch roster.💩🔥
Topic of characters, definitely feel G or a form of Q might have a chance in Season 2, they might go an sfiv route with more classics the later dlc packs and lore wise I think makes sense and would be a cool way to have more of the better new characters from sfv
Maybe it's a bit of a reach but like Zangiefs level 1, I feel like marisa's level 2 needs to have its hitbox over her head extended, I feel like my anti-air super misses about 50% of the time on people jumping semi-close range.
Speaking of a Jukebox mode there actually is a way to collect songs from previous SF games (3rd strike, SFV, second impact, etc) in SF6 via the cheap fighting passes, and you can actually make playlists with them. Yet despite that for some reason there doesn’t seem to be a way to actually listen to those playlists or any of the other songs during actual matches. You can only listen to it in training or whip out your phone it battle hub and just stand still listening lmao.
Question, what does people think about sfv? Im thinking about getting it really soon. I love the huge roster, the simple 3d art, and the v trigger stuff to some extent. Please
I'm not really sure what happened when they made the sf6 ost, it's really really lackluster. I understand wanting to try new things, but damn... at least make it sound palatable.
@@azahalbioraYeah I assume something Shadaloo-ish is gonna happen to her home or her people and the rage is gonna come out of her. But unlike Ryu shes not gonna be as good at controlling it
I first learned about juggle counts in SF6 funnily enough from practicing avatar combos. I realized once the combo went on long enough that I couldn’t actually use any specials to juggle after ending with Jamie’s level 3 and had no clue why. So I looked it up and saw all this juggle count and limit nonsense 😂 Took a while for it to make sense
My hot take: throw loops are partially a result of the existence of parry being a defensive mechanic that covers nearly every option other than throwing and I think it dumbs down defense as a result. Most other fighting games I can think of that have some kind of alternative to blocking that isn't a reversal make it either involve strict timing (in other words you have to make a prediction), and/or at least has a high and low version.
I have agreed with you every single time you've talked about how one change would affect lots of other characters that do similar behaviors, but this video made me realize how much it may be a hot take that that's a bad thing. If your game is designed in a way that is so based on systems that you can't actually balance those aspects of characters, that's rough.
I'm the same in theory when it comes to liking or disliking throw loops, but if I can be honest, as a Jamie main, I feel that if I don't have that threat, I have very little to make you angsty in the corner; especially at low drinks or in MUs where you're forced to prioritize oki, like Guile. Walk up Stmp is a thing, but if you put me further away on throw, I have very little. All of this IF I won neutral with a character that starts severely hindered in the risk/reward footsie battle. I realize this might be more of a "Jamie needing dev love" problem, but just like you said about rush-firball nerfs might indirectly hurt characters who are suffering more, nerfing throw loops could hurt Jamie or AKI herself. i could see a possibility in these characters receiving proper buffs to at least compete with the hard hitters, together with removing the loops, I'm just scared of the scenario where Jamie gets an extra few plus frames here and there while losing throw loops, that would hurt like hell
Thats because Jamie is a shit character and should never have been added though. Any character that skips the neutral game for gimmicks is always pretty bad overall.
@@ThreatLvMezzanotte Yeah idk what that other dude is yappin' about but agree with u when it comes to throw loops how it can affect other characters if it were removed. Plus i just like having throw loops when im playing ryu against zoners like dhalsim, guile, and JP because it's so important to stick to them and make the most out of your offense.
@@klaude4873 i'm not super into the loops myself, but if they were to remove them it would indirectly hurt certain low tier characters (even aki), so they would need to account for that
what he means is that, changing the system means everyone even bottom tiers (aki) are going to be affected, and bottom tiers might even take the worst L out of said change. To be honest i think most of ppl asking for system changes aren't thinking through the game and are only complaining because certain characters abuse said system, turning it into a character problem not system. Nerfing DR will fuck up characters who need DR to even work, but nerfing ken, deejay and juri DR means the characters who abuse the system will get to play the game like everyone else, and the complains about neutral will stop. I mean, what benefit would give nerf DR for aki, gief or marisa?! Ken, deejay and juri will still be god like characters who get alway with a lot of shit (i'm a juri player, i know how braindead i can be with her knowing how good my tools are).
I tend to agree here. I think fireball drive rush is stupid. Drive rush by itself raw in neutral is already extremely oppressive. Being able to throw out a barrier for it is overkill imo and is a free "get in" card in a lot of situations. I wouldn't mind if they removed the interaction from everyone. Looking back at SFV, Guile was doing it with his Vtrigger, setting up 50/50s with multiple booms on screen. It was stupid back then, and it's still stupid now in this game.
Imma be honest, I wish Lily was a bit more like T. Hawk, but instead have it be that she would would have moves of her own. She’d be better if she were a bit more complicated, maybe condor dive can lead into something else instead of buttons or suplex. But I do think Zeku would be cool since it could lead into making your character in WT very interesting.
I think they should 1) make normals more plus on block 2) make it so Perfect Parry dosen’t work on normals to make the plus buttons not feel risky to use and prevent party spam lol I think it should just work on specials. 3) make buttons hit confirmable into special moves, not drive rush necessarily so a short window for drive rush and long window for dp cancel. Love the video broski! Really made me think what I think is missing from this game
I like Lily because she is the most pick up and play character on the roster. Very user friendly for people new to Street fighter. I reached Master rank in less than a week with her. All she really needs is a reliable wake up attack and a faster drive impact and she would be a lot more dangerous
I 100% agree that not all the SF2 World Warriors need to be in every game. Characters like E. Honda, Blanka, and Dhalsim are consistently on the low end of usage; I really doubt a SF game will take a sales hit if they aren't playable. Let some other unique characters get some shine
I just wish the training mode had some indicators for juggles. I've been saying that since week 1. When everyone was losing their mind over how good the training mode was. And I was perpetually asking for juggle points in training.
Some things i some get are some of the ridiculous things low teirs can get away with. I'm a Jamie player and i took the time to learn all my different moves and stuff, I'm probably on par to track into silver ranks, but I'm stuck iron and bronze because i meet players who abuse and spam the same 3 attacks. Of course I've adoted and gotten better, but it's taken me a week to get out of iron since taking this game seriously because i met a guile who can't stop tornado kicking, or a grab happy manon and zangeif. There's no reason a grab should take 20% of my health and then loop again for another, especially in low rank when people can't throw escape, that's not fun. I had to spend 2 hours in practice learning throw escapes just to counter that. Even then i still meet a zangieff or manon that wrecks me because their throws eat half my health. There's no reward in a coin flip. I have all the tools to play and counter play most people, then i get in a match with a guy who just spams and spams and spams and i lose because they learned to throw loop and so their beefy attack that eats 30% health.
I genuinely think that Lily is a wepl designed character in concept, but Capcom forgot that normals need to be special cancelled in this game when they were executing her design. Hand to my heart I believe she'd be somewhat decent if she could hitconfirm literally anything
Much like Manon and Zangief, Capcom has always had an irrational fear of grapplers and have handicapped them way too much throughout the years. Any time they creep near top tier, ala SF4 Gief and SFV Mika, the changes are swifter and more aggressive than with any other archetype.
I only started watching your content recently, but you've quickly become one of my favorite creators in the fgc. I really appreciate how you are chill and informative, and you don't make inflammatory/sensational stuff. You always have a pretty fair and balanced take on things. Also, your AKI is sick and it's tight that you champion her. In terms of SF6 takes, I don't think there is any argument against the base roster being a snooze fest (no SFIII, no Final Fight, too much SFII) and Lily is just T. Hawk but somehow more boring (I love T. Hawk)
I disagree on the music because I honestly think the music helps get you into the mindset calculating what to do vs what the opponent does. On its own listening outside the game I agree it will never be an ost I search up to listen to but ingame but makes me focus, especially kim, juri and cammy's themes. It especially helped reinforce not tryna rushdown every single moment I could because the only fighting game I sunk proper time into before sf6 was DBFZ where the music and pace of gameplay were completely different and everything was frantic and fast
My SF6 hot take is that burnout needs to be less of a complete game-over state when it happens. Even if they don't nerf its penalties at all, or heck even if they increase the duration of the state to compensate, I think that landing hits and playing well should reduce the timer on it by a much larger amount. Supers in particular should restore a lot more burnout timer on hit. _Right now you can get put into burnout, have a brawl with the opponent for a while and land a few hits and short combos, but ultimately lose because a good 60% of your options are gone, while the opponent only needs to land or get you to block any hit to win.. The next 5-10 seconds is spent getting pushed to the corner with the opponent's advancing plus frames, they try and DI you but you successfully read the timing on it and spend super meter against them.._ _... And you go through it again because you're still only 2/3 out of burnout.._
Something that I think could’ve helped the soundtrack would’ve been more use of vocals/samples. The character themes especially feel incomplete at the moment; something along the lines of Elena’s “Beats in my Head” would’ve really added some personality.
Good thoughtful takes on stuff even if I don't agree with everything and some interesting points I didn't consider. The biggest notion that stood out to me that touches everything is how important fun is to balance. If the game isn't fun what does it matter if it's perfectly balanced. It's a game and should be fun to play winning and even though it's hard, fun while losing. If anyone wants the most perfectly balanced game they can just go play chess(respect to chess).
My proposed nerf for JP OD amnesia is to have two separate versions for strike and throw. JP’s counter as is isn’t exactly mechanically different from an invincible reversal, aside from the fact that it can’t directly punish jabs. Having two separate moves to COUNTER specific offensive options would give JP a situational high risk high reward mechanic that is functionally different from a standard reversal.
12:40 I kind of agree with the throw loops, it's too easy to pul off (some characters literally just have to do a framekill jab or dash), it doesn't matter if you are a SF pro or someone who just picked up the game for 10 minutes, it loops into itself and basically devolves a huge amount of the match into complete guesses with completely awful R:R, especially with how easy it is to corner carry, or side switch in SF6. You can get rid of them, I actually prefer James Chen's suggestion but personally I think the SF6 throw system is way too dull and remedial, I would much rather have 6f throw invul like 3S or CVS2 and change the way the throw actually works. They'll never do it though, it would open up the game to OSs and advanced techniques which will basically allow pros to completely smash beginners and intermediates. You can see why they added throw loops to begin with, it's 100% because of PP, so let's see what they do. The biggest change I want honestly is for burnout to sting significantly more. My idea is that if you recover from burnout, your 2 whole stocks of drive are completely gone every time (similar to guard crush in alpha 3), and if you burnout 3x in a round, you are perpetually burned out. I also think burnout should last longer and I would significantly reduce drive regeneration from it, or something. I've noticed that a big reason the top tiers are the way they are is 1. They fight extremely well out of burnout (Luke, JP, Guile in neutral, etc.) 2. Are complete nightmares to deal with in burnout (JP, Ken, Cammy, DJ etc.) or both. The crap, lower tier characters have a very hard time fighting out of burnout, eg. bad supers or bad confirmable buttons to super, or literally don't do anything to a burned out character as they can freely replenish drive. And then, even shittier, the person who freshly recovered all their drive starts with 6 so they are 90% of the time at a drive advantage vs the other player who are usually low, which actually incentivizes players to burn themselves out and then play like complete nuts and be rewarded. I feel it's completely backwards and goes against the entire idea of the drive system and how it was designed to reward smart meter management rather than nutty play.
I like lily :( i haven't dived into fighting games before and she clicked rlt fast. Got me to diamond in under 50 hours. Her kit is easy, but it allowed me to learn the fundamentals very fast bc me losing is never an execution error, it's always because i reacted wrong or didnt know how somethint works.
I agree completely about Lily. I was excited when I heard about what she was described like in the leaks. A smaller grappler character in a FG franchise, where they are typically bigger, sounded really cool. I was excited to see where they would take a character like that. So when her gameplay came out, and more so when the game was released, i was really disappointed.
For JP’s OD Amnesia in addition to bomb disappearing when hit I would make it not invincible to command grab, but still invincible vs normal grabs. JP already has great matchups vs every command grab character in the game, the fact that he can punish both normal and command grabs makes grapplers game (characters who have a harder time getting oki, but have better mixs when they do) just miserable.
The thing that really fucks me up about Lily is her horrendous baby face in the loading screen and with the game face feature but in game she looks way older and cooler
Feel like with a little more production value and a little more fanfare could make this series like, Will It Kill? level of popularity. Hype af concept
Your case for throwing loops having to go is both the one opinion I agree with the most (because you accurately point out that strategy is twain boring and unsightly), and the one assessment I least expected from a professional player, as I was under the impression most people that play for a living seldom take the actual enjoyment of the game into consideration for they judgement, gameplay-wise, which is at the same time sad and wry; Kudos on your approach to gaming, Broski.
Capcom needs to add all the quirky characters of past in one game for once. See how it goes. Lily does need some minor tweaks, it's a hit or miss with brand new entries
I main Dhalsim, and all I want is his OD Yoga Blast to be an invincible wake-up. Not fair that characters can fly across the screen with drive rush, have plus on with a heavy attack, even with block, then just add an invincible reversal on top of it. I mean WTF?
Lily is fine design wise for the most part. I'm a T-hawk player from ST, I'm fine with her being the new generation of T-hawk since for the most part they feel similar. The wind charges are something I feel are there just for the sake of being different and aren't really neccesary. T-Hawk's biggest strength was literally throw loops in ST, after that he was kind of a mediocre grappler that happened to have a reversal and a move that acted almost like a command dash with how it was used (condor spire has always been a way to close space, Lily's version even has that in the description of the move in the list). I guess you could argue that spire with a charge is too safe, but everytime I land a counter hit with st.short after empowered spire it's 100% the opponent mashing like an idiot (the one thing people cry about since release for Lily and people still mash). As for the idea of Lily blocking T-hawk's return, that's fine too TBH. Lore wise it's time for the next generation of fighters to step up, and she fits in for him just fine. We have better options for grapplers anyway, like Hugo they keep teasing in the background of nearly every clip they release with posters and stuff.
Condor Spire is just not good for the game flow, and is made even worse by Lily's overly simple toolkit. Imagine if Ken had an untechable command grab that he could pop after H Dragonlash, or if Gief or Manon had a forward-advancing, plus-on-block special that led into one.
I mained lily at launch and I never felt she was terrible. Weak yes but not unwinnable. With lily all I want is back jump condor dive and OD T buster be invul with wind.
as a gief main that's used to putting people into the 3LPLK roullette, i won't miss throw loops that much they're just a super frustrating part of the game. though like, please give me green hand or something. at least fix chop. level 1 + 2 both have issues but i've kind of accepted it's unlikely they'll fix them, the problems of them really do just feel very on purpose.
Juggle points and limits have always been a bit confusing to me in SFV and SF6. It was a little frustrating learning rashid in SF6 because it took me so long to figure out why combos worked only sometimes. A juggle counter or something in training mode would be very helpful.
Absolutely, feels like just trying moves until you find the one the developers wanted you to pick up the juggle with, very unintuitive but I understand why it exists
I haven't played a lot of fighters but Strive has had the most intuitive juggle system because it's straight up height dependent, and you get a sense of which moves send characters upwards and how fast they fall when the juggle state gets higher.
I would appreciate the training mode option since street fighter characters dont fall in the same way but while moves have these arbitrary juggle amounts, the only other thing you can do is a special animation when you can no longer juggle them (like the spin in Melee)
OMFG just realized that that's why I hate playing SF so much, like gear really just lets you freestyle your comboes and it feels so intuitive and flexible for what moves will and wont work...
The concept of juggle points was new to me coming from Tekken and I only understand what it is because of Punch Planet. Punch Planet actually displays your available juggle count right underneath it's combo counter and generally gives the player a lot more information than SF does.
Fighting game Twitter is wild. I probably would have way less fun with SF6 if I started listening to that noise.
Ikr!
Twitter in general is noise
some of those takes are just wild LMAO
Twitter always has the worst, most braindead takes of all time
Exactly man. I love this game so much and any time I see sf6 twitter I am 💀 inside
Deejay and T. Hawk were both characters that capcom basically never paid much attention to throughout all of SF history. DJ gets a loving redesign in 6 to finally make him a real character, T. Hawk gets Lilly, poor bastard.
Agreed. This is the best version of Dee Jay ever.
Honestly, I always thought as long as guile was in the game Deejay would be useless. Guile honestly could just do everything better with the minor exception that Deejay has quicker Anti-Airs. Deejay having the ability to fake out the Opponent with Kicks and Projectiles especially in a meter driven game like SF6 works poetically but T.Hawk/Lily lacks inspiration.
Lily her self if great tbh it’s just her kit sadly
T.Hawk in Sf4 wasn't great but way better than Lilly in this game...
@@MrCharlo83
OMEGA Mode T Hawk on the other hand…
Lily was designed like she was the very first character they started with and then got bored and stopped.
More like a last minute addition they had to come up with during crunch times.
When you look at all the sauce that the DLC characters have, it really does feel like certain characters like Lily, Manon, Marisa etc... were designed early and never got the second pass.
@@TheGreektrojan Kinda yes but at the same time they spent on not just the design and gameplay of the characters but the stages for each of them and that's not to also include the other new characters(JP, Jaime, Kimberly) they put in the same amount of time creating them.
No no no. You're all wrong. Lily was designed to be very VERY simple to use. Pure and simple. She is still a viable tournament character. Some (not all) of the buffs ppl are begging for would defeat the purpose of having a SIMPLE TO USE character.
That makes sense lol I can see the dev team doing that. I'm sure many a fighting game dev has done so with many characters over the years. I'm looking at Bowser and Mewtwo from Smash Bros Melee.
I love the fact that there's a LET'S ARGUE serie done by the chilliest fg content creator.
This needs to continue.
Sticks from Sonic look'n, recoler Teen Titans Jynx look'n.Talem from Soulcalibur look'n,wind look'n. Wwe grapple spam look'n. Past your* bedtime look'n.
Broski frothing at the mouth as he raves and rants about people wanting to remove A.K.I. 💅
If we’re talking gameplay in the returning cast Blanka doll makes blanka’s addition entirely worth it. It interacts with so many parts of his kit and makes some of the coolest combos in the game. It’s the spice the character needed and the only reason I play him honestly
It's also a creative tool, makes your opponent think about positioning and jumping
Blankas activating the doll with his level 2 is a pretty cool mixup tbh
That and his v skill stance from v give another layer in his movement for neutral as well
Along with the air blanka balls and how it interacts with his lvl 2
Yeah I agree he’s extremely fun
SF6 Zangief reminds me of Continuum Shift Tager. He's a usable character that can do stuff, but none of his buttons work like you think they would and sometimes his moves don’t work how they should.
If only Geif had Tager's magnetism thingy
it would be nice if they gave him green hand to flesh out the gameplan. Its pretty annoying that his only personality trait is being a grappler.
@zackswitch9656 He's the only Grappler I can think of that doesn't have a tool specifically to counter zoning. Lariat is projectile invuln, but it's really bad at anti-zoning
Zangief has so many problems, he's like a joke character at this point.
At this point I think someone at Capcom genuinely hates Zangief and only keeps him around because of mandates
As someone that's played World Tour, there are like 3 cutscenes and a bunch of screenshots/text dialogue for the characters. It doesn't seem like it would be a lot of resources or time at all.
The way past Broski responded with "Alright" to his future self calling him an idiot was perfect.
As for time spent in development, there's going to be different people working on different aspects. World tour content probably adds zero actual delay to their release schedules.
It's legit just: A cutscene that they use for promotion anyways, moveset that the singleplayer character can use (which is already developed, just need to adjust to the model rigging), and a couple of drawings and text dialogue. That ideally takes maybe a week at most 😂😂
unless ofc that part of development is delayed. But yeah as long as things are going correctly than single player content should get in the way too much.
The aki thing about the juggle state blew my mind. Actually bonkers the game doesn’t tell you anywhere. The juggle system has been my #1 biggest issue since sf6 is my first street fighter and I feel like I can’t free flow juggle combos.
To be honest, why would you even free flow when you can just go to training mode and learn what works when and where?
Just play anime fighters if you want to free flow combos. Stricter combo routes has always been in street fighter.
4:25 My boy SEAN deserves a redesign. Capcom did him SO DIRTY in 3rd strike. Bring him back! Look how cool they made ED look. SEAN DESERVES THIS LEVEL OF LOVE
He got hinted at in Ken's story so I pray he gets a redesign AND they bring back his 2nd Impact-self with maybe a new gimmick (basketball??)
Sean was a filler character made in a pretty pathetic attempt at capcom to capture the "urban" scene in the 90s. You see a bit of it in the twins skateboarding and rollerblading as well.
Sean is not an interesting or appealing character, if they want a new shoto apprentice, they should just retcon him out of the series and have Ken's son Mel be his successor. Sean's Sister was awful too.
@@spitfiremanlizerd Kinda true ngl. "Oh another shoto character with the same fighting style, How unoriginal!" Like personally Sean was cool in SF3 but that was for that game specifically, how he'll do in the modern era in SF6 is hard to say for me. And hey his sister maybe awful but damn is she hot and so is her gameplay.
@@spitfiremanlizerd I think you are inadvertently advocating for Sean if he's a pathetic urban appeal character. Urban aesthetic is in your face in SF6.
😂2nd Impact Sean too dope for this world.
24:10 I totally agree with the juggle system being archaic. For all the tutorials and training mode visualizations the game has, it has 0 explanations about how juggling works. Even basic things like "DR normals can juggle" is completely non-discoverable and you just have to find that out yourself and wonder why it actually works until you read it up on a wiki about juggle limit or something. Even most wikis don't have detailed breakdown of the exact juggle properties of the moves. Given how important juggling is for a lot of combos this seems like a miss.
This will blow your mind then.
There was a time when nobody knew that Ryu had a fireball. No manuals or guides told you, the game didn't tell you. We found it ourselves.
Back when people did things for themselves and called it "fun"
"games should have less information so you don't know what you're doing because trying to learn more about a game so you can do better isn't how you have fun"@@gavinpowell4607
22:58 the fact that you get music tracks in the battle pass and can't use them in ranked needs to be looked at. Tekken's jukebox is a brilliant feature that this game needs too, instead of a very below average music player (also, the NERDS Clothing tracks dont work, which is a damn shame, because I like these way better than the rap they went with) The game would be enhanced greatly by putting something like Tekken's jukebox in the game.
21:08 You can't tell me that the victory screen theme is not a fucking banger.
It's just eh. Outside of character select screen, Jamie and Zangief themes I can't even remember how any of SF6 music goes.
It's not offensively bad, but very unremarkable.
@@HellecticMojo for me I only like Fete foraine's and Cammy theme, most of character themes are atrocious for me
Hopefully people release more audio mods. They just of added sfv music as an option.
The game is full of bangers to me
Thats (the tweet in the beginning of the video about the drive gauge being intuitive) Fatality Falcon! used to be the best captain falcon player in smash ultimate
He was never the best Falcon in Ult. There was always another that had better results in Ult. In 4 he was very clearly though.
@@meathir4921I mean i can't blame someone for forgetting 4
Man I miss playing ultimate's snake so much is unreal
Who uses twitter in light mode?
You ended that sentence 3 words too late.
The same morons that use Twitter I suppose.
Something else that I want to say that I don't think gets talked about enough is how announcing all the characters that will come in the character pass from the get-go is fucking awesome, and I really appreciate it. I'm super excited to see the release of each character because I can get hyped, and with some of the promo material that suggests a character is coming out soon it breathes new life into the hype of the release. Akuma is going to be fucking sick. I wish more games did this.
Why do that when they can just have the characters leaked ahead of time anyway, only for the company to keep acting as if it's still a secret?
this isn't a new business practice so I'm not really gonna give them credit for that.
I love zangief theme, zangief stage theme, lily’s theme and ryu’s theme.
I think it’s much better to have a new soundtrack than the 80th remix of songs that got remixed to death since 1980.
Because really, I prefer some good tracks and some bad ones than nothing new at all.
Also sf6 guile theme is kind of catchy too.
The soundtrack is genuinely good, people just cling to nostalgia and it gives them terrible taste
@@aledantih6524 No, it is genuinely bad, and I've listened to it for all of the 400hrs I've been playing. It's composed by committee music of the worst kind. It's so bland and uninteresting. Every modern fighting game has better music, and you'd have to be crazy to say it's better than UNI, Gear, Granblue, or Tekken
@@gwen9939 don't even know any UNI tracks so it can't be that good, Guilty Gear has amazing music but the "Engrish" ruins a lot of the tracks, never even noticed any of the granblue tracks and yeah Tekken probably has better music overall but I still consistently listen to the SF6 tracks over it and some tracks like the character select and menu music are way better than T8
Theres more mediocre themes here (%) than prolly any other numbered sf but its still not bad overall
@@pastorofmuppets9346 simply because all 2s, 4s and 5 have the same good songs in the soundtrack (spoiler the ones from sf2). Except something here and there like Seth theme in 5 for me.
I would die if I were forced to listen to sf2 themes for the bazillionth time
I feel like an interesting and very simple change for gief is to add one variation to his mp TC. He still has the three chops that work exactly the same and only combo on counter hit, but he’ll also has another option where after the first chop you can hit confirm immediately into the 3rd chop (probably going from standing mp to heavy punch) guaranteeing a knockdown and adding some much needed mid screen pressure
Spot on assessment on Gief. He looks amazing on paper but struggles with consistency because his moves don't work the way you expect them to or have glaring weaknesses that kneecap their usefulness.
Wonky level 1 super. Level 2 super that looks like an amazing fireball punish but has short range and so much start-up, some characters have time to recover unless Gief reacts almost instantly to the fireball. Buttons that look good in neutral but don't really convert into anything meaningful and are easily blown up by DI. Chop TC that only combos on punish or counterhit but whiffs at ranges where'd you want to use it. Lariat that looks like it should hit cross-ups but doesn't. Wheel kick that low crushes and hits overhead but is so slow it gets almost no value as either so it gets used for punish counters instead.
Gief's problem isn't that he's bad. It's that his kit doesn't work like you think it would.
Agreed
I'll agree that the chop TC needs to be fixed to work at max range, but I disagree with the other points. Lvl2 is perfectly fine for a fireball punish, and the range is good enough to catch the extended hurtboxes at just-outside midrange. Lvl1 is also a workable anti air if you're fully focused on reacting to enemy jump.
Lariat not hitting crossup is a shame, but its problem is not unique. Capcom wants cross-ups to be strong, and zangief is far from the only character whose anti airs get shafted for that reason.
If you're looking to low crush, Knee hammer is far more reliable and safer than wheel kick, but that's why wheel kick is so high reward on PC, and the fact that zangief gets a grounded overhead at all is still huge. It could however do with a bit of not being a guaranteed DI on reaction, maybe make it cancelable into super 2
@bartekkko I think at least OD Lariat should hit on cross up. I also think lvl 2 is a bit too slow for a fireball punish. Don't get me wrong, you're right when you said it's a good punish, but you really need to be looking for it/buffering it. As for level 1, like you said, it's good if you're already looking for the jump read, but sometimes it just doesn't work. I think the grab hixbox itself should come out earlier.
Overall, I think Gief just needs a few tweaks and he's good to go.
@@bartekkko Bro, Gief having an overhead isn't huge when it's a death on block, easily reactable overhead. Fun fact about the wheel kick. It hits later on crouching opponents. Meaning in situations where you'd get value out of it's properties, it's actively worse than the frame data says it is. You're not catching anyone but the sleepiest of players with it unless you want to risk your life going for the hardest read ever. It's the perfect example of Gief's kit not working like you expect it to. The low crush/overhead property is almost irrelevant to how the attack actually sees use.
@@bartekkkolevel 1 is not workable anti air at all. It's an anti air that whiffs against aerial opponents.
Zangief just feels so sad because there's just so many tools that are just outright weird/bad/outclassed.
The stomps TC is another example, where it doesn't combo into its last hit, but the second hit is minus on hit.
Or how Atomic Buster has an issue with its activation range where it can just whiff after certain options like 6HP. In addition, it's both slow and has poor reach on top of causing him to corner himself.
2HP is a horrendous button, and outclassed in its entirety by his other AAs. It's slow, awkward, and unreliable while being less rewarding than his other high risk AAs. It has no utility in combos or pressure.
Then there's just arbitrary downsides like his 2HK knocking the opponent away on hit, so his oki after a sweep is miserable. Or how he's the only one without a cancellable 4f button. Or how he can't do a 3 hit light confirm without EX.
Finally, the lack of meterless hit confirms outside of counter hit scenarios, even up close, is awful. Just a little more range/speed on lariat for 6HP 2LP Lariat, or more hitstun on 6HP would help significantly.
I use Atomic Buster almost exclusively to get out of corners.
I don't think Lily translated well from her concept art to in game. Her face looks so young.
It's probably the other way around though, considering how they crafted her mannerisms. She doesn't act her age at all.
Compare her to someone like a JP or a Marisa and she just doesn't feel as well thought out.
Also from the waist up she looks like an oversized toddler but from the waist down she's the most stacked woman after Chun and Cammy. And before anyone points it out: I know how creepy that sounds but her introduction in World Tour mode has the mother of all ass shots almost immediately and *I'm not the one responsible for that.*
@@krodmandoon3479nah you’re right she’s got a wagon back there.
@@hands-ongaming7180 delusional
It's weird as fack
Aside from this being off-topic and weird to bring up, young looking women do exist... Plenty as a matter of fact.
Lily will get thru this 💔
23:33 THANK YOU for bringing this up lol. I love the 3rd strike soundtrack dearly (been playing the game since a kid), but when I first heard 2nd impact’s soundtrack baked af, I was blown away of how good dnb is and it’s the reason why I got into dnb and so as other genres of music. They need to make more soundtracks as groovy as these 2 examples for future sf6 characters
Imo, I enjoy SF6's soundtrack. My favorite character themes being Zangief's, Ken's, Cammy's, and JP's. My favorite stage theme is Genbu Temple.
@@marlinmurrell620same my fav stage is Genbu temple as well. Don’t get me wrong sf6 has some groovy tracks, my fav ones are Jamie’s, Cammy, and Zangief theme and also like Manon and Ryu stage’s themes as well. I just hope that for Season 2 we can get a jukebox or something soon for the music 🙏🏼
I think Brutus is half right. The WT content slows down the release schedule for characters. I'm not a game dev, but I did study a few Unity and Unreal courses, plus I'm assuming it's not wildly different from the regular IT jobs I did worked in. QA is probably the biggest source of delay. Adding the character and making sure their movelist doesn't break anything in such a big setting like WT is a bigger ordeal than people give it credit for. It's just too time consuming for the kind of setting World Tour is built on. But releasing it on different schedules adds its own kind of nightmare when two different teams are working on different things and might break something the other is doing without knowing. I think it adds at least one month to make sure no game-breaking bug is being introduced with the new scope. But with them having to redesign and remodel all characters from the ground up from the previous engine to RE Engine, I don't think we're getting 6 characters per season for at least a couple more years when the SF team gets really comfortable with it.
I think the way I felt is that they should have spread the WW characters out more. Also yeah it is absurd that there isn't a 3rd Strike characters considering SFV built on the story of that.
Oh.. I also miss full charge characters. Guile seems to be the only one now. The soundtrack to me is so bad I would want to use a mod to replace almost all the songs.
Everything that's good about her should be nerfed and everything that's bad should be buffed. She is one of the most 1 dimensional fighting game characters ever.
Idk about ever lol. There have been thousands of fighting games before. And T Hawk has an even more 1 dimensional game plan and hes been in at least 5 other games. Half the casts of SF2 and MvC2 are similar, and theres hundreds of characters from lesser known games which could only wish for half the depth Lily has.
Shes definitely the worst designed character in the game tho
1 dimensional isn’t inherently a bad thing. honda has existed forever.
Well said lol, aside from the last sentence.
@@nicorobin7762honda also needs a rework
@@EXFrostyeah people constantly forget that we have gotten much worse than Lily
Second Impact deserves WAYYYY more credit ❤
Nah, NG is the one that never got explored and actually has some neat stuff. Riiya did a video on it.
but it has unplayable Hugo, so it gets a big thumbs down from me.
2nd Impact is the best 3 game. A lot of folks won't wanna hear that though. And some infinites aside (which weren't super easy to do) it's one of the most balanced & fun sf games ever.
Too bad it was in Sleeperville. Like other great overlooked games.
@@spitfiremanlizerd I'm good thanks lol
It always had the best soundtrack.
Lily seems like a guaranteed addition to the "only appeared in one game" list.
I think she's the FANG of this game, and I say this as someone who loves FANG.
Like FANG, she's clearly underpowered at launch, but also like FANG, her whole gameplan revolves around getting in people's faces with an obnoxious forward moving + attack that puts you in a 50/50 grab or attack guessing game over and over. FANG was "good" by the end of SFV, but was deeply unfun to play against, and was way too 1-Dimensional to play as.
21:20
I agree. I enjoy SF6's soundtrack. It has pretty good good music, imo.
I like the reply saying "we can all agree Jamie's soundtrack is garbage." Jamie's theme is one of my favorites. I've put it on for people who hadn't played the game, and they thought it was from a Persona game.
Even if I personally like the soundtrack tho, some songs become grating over time.
@@wordcroutonsthat’s just with certain tracks that aren’t that good
But the ones that are always feel like bops
@@wordcroutons I agree when it comes to Jamie, but I feel like the overall character soundtracks feel way to nuanced for their own good
honestly a point for world tour that people forget is that it means that all special moves kind of have to link in to eachother to some extent, making sure everything from every character kinda of vaguely works together sounds like a lot of QA workt hat wouldn't be there otherwise
I think I’m coming around on throw loops being okay to get rid of. Originally, I agreed that they were necessary to counter parry as a wakeup option. But if it’s about guessing what your opponent will do on wakeup and picking an appropriate option to counter that, waiting until you see them flash parry and punish counter throwing them seems reasonable. I guess I’m seeing less of a reason why they’re necessary, and the argument for why they’re not fun makes sense.
20:10
Whenever someone makes that argument, show them DNF Duel matches
People call out Dalhsim, Blanka or Honda undeserving of being in the game, but don't have any problem getting Regular Ryu, Blonde American Ryu and Zoomer Blonde American Ryu, and are super excited to soon also get Demon Ryu and later Schoolgirl Ryu too.
Popularity doesn't equal quality, and SF would be a much worse game without characters as distinct and recognizable as Dalhsim or Blanka acting as counterbalance to the shoto army methastasis.
Not to mentiom evil ryu lol
I can’t like this comment enough. If the “fandom” had its way, the SF roster would be dull as dishwater.
Wait, are there still people like you throwing out this "shoto clones" bullshit in fucking 2024? Lmao None of those characters play remotely similar, yet you thought "yes, let's go the "shitty shoto clones" route? LMAOOOOOO
@shishinonaito he's not entirely wrong. They may play different, but all have the same/similar roots. Lmao
If you don't like Ryu or characters with the same tools as Ryu you should not be playing street fighter bro he's literally Mr streetfighter
The idea that some archetypes should be better/worse than others for “game health” is silly and produces forced top/low tiers which tend to be obvious and feel bad to play or fight against. It also sucks when the character you like gets hit with the “fuck you in particular” stick when the devs favorite character has every random niche interaction work in their favor
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Gief has so many bugs, jank, and basic issues I think he was the last character made and had very rushed testing. A lot of his basic issues (can’t to lights to meterless special, horrible AAs and supers besides super 3, combos dropping or not juggling when they should, etc) all have such simple fixes that it both frustrates me how they weren’t caught in testing but also makes me hopeful for S2
My hot take is, SF6 is very close on being the best game in the franchise and just need tweaks. Game is overall bonkers fun, netcode is so good the complain in that regard is matchmaking instead of bad conection and crazy rollbacks, characters are very well designed both gameplay and character wise (they made me like honda, who is a character i never gave 2 fucks about), sound design is fantastic with rounds having multiple stemps of the music to reflect what is happening in the fight; hit sounds as good as 3rd strike and hits feeling fantastic, the game is much more better balanced than a lot of games in the genre and even previous street fighter games for first intereation (always remember that after multiple interations sf3 still ended with that chun and yun, and sf4 had yun and yang on arcade edition), and the overall philosophy on making rounds feel umpredictable is so good is the same 3rd strike had to have such a fantastic fighting system. And i'm disregarding extra stuff like world tour being so fun and unique, loads of extra content for the fun of it, dlc characters expanding not only the roaster but single player content aswell, and the whole feel of playing the game for hours being the best in the genre (i love the instant rematch, vs screen faces, custom challenger cards, and crazy effects on screen, game is just visually striking even on potato pcs like mine). Capcom has the best first interation of an sf game right here, they just need to keep the good work, and we will probably be nitpicking dumb stuff like ryu triple nipples on fighting ground splash arts. Oh and please give us more 3rd strike content, because we need to know what happens with the whole gill world domination plot, alex becoming one of the illuminaty, makoto fixing her dad's dojo, sean training to impress ken and so on.
I find the discussion around throw loops in Street Fighter pretty interesting, because I come from FS where throw loops are even stronger, like it's a true 50/50 every time, and it does more damage. But people don't really find them that annoying. I have noticed that it has a lot to do with the risk reward. If you incorrectly guess a throw is coming, you don't take that much damage, around 30%, and you are out of the situation. Also when when you call out a throw, it's potentially round ending interaction, depending on the matchup. So the throw looper has really strong mix there, but are constantly at razors edge. So if someone manages to tho kill with just a throw loop, it's very hype.
FS?
Fantasy strike?
i don't even play street fighter but i find your analysis of the drive system (in all your vids) really measured and informative. i'm new to fighting games, so seeing someone analyze a game's mechanics (especially one as elegant as sf6 drive) is SUPER helpful. if sf6 ever adds a female shoto, i'll be ready to dive back in!
Lily’s just boring to fight, whether not she is strong or weak and I don’t think my opinion will change
She does need a redesign...I find her to be the lamest character on the roster. Wouldve rather had C.Viper, Dudley or anyone else on the launch roster.💩🔥
Topic of characters, definitely feel G or a form of Q might have a chance in Season 2, they might go an sfiv route with more classics the later dlc packs and lore wise I think makes sense and would be a cool way to have more of the better new characters from sfv
Maybe it's a bit of a reach but like Zangiefs level 1, I feel like marisa's level 2 needs to have its hitbox over her head extended, I feel like my anti-air super misses about 50% of the time on people jumping semi-close range.
Speaking of a Jukebox mode there actually is a way to collect songs from previous SF games (3rd strike, SFV, second impact, etc) in SF6 via the cheap fighting passes, and you can actually make playlists with them. Yet despite that for some reason there doesn’t seem to be a way to actually listen to those playlists or any of the other songs during actual matches. You can only listen to it in training or whip out your phone it battle hub and just stand still listening lmao.
Question, what does people think about sfv? Im thinking about getting it really soon. I love the huge roster, the simple 3d art, and the v trigger stuff to some extent. Please
I'm not really sure what happened when they made the sf6 ost, it's really really lackluster. I understand wanting to try new things, but damn... at least make it sound palatable.
Capcom hinted that Lily is going to become "Evil" in her story. That's one way of making her NOT Dishwater.
Wat? Where?
@@elcugoI think it’s dhailsims story mode where he senses the power of satsui no hado coming from Lily or something
@@azahalbioraYeah I assume something Shadaloo-ish is gonna happen to her home or her people and the rage is gonna come out of her. But unlike Ryu shes not gonna be as good at controlling it
And also in World Tour mode she talks about it@@azahalbiora
I didn't play single player modes at all but learning this, makes me low-key hype
@Broski, Hey love your Aki bro! As far as Zangief goes that 3 hit med. punch is meant to put the opponent into block so he can SPD you.
I first learned about juggle counts in SF6 funnily enough from practicing avatar combos. I realized once the combo went on long enough that I couldn’t actually use any specials to juggle after ending with Jamie’s level 3 and had no clue why. So I looked it up and saw all this juggle count and limit nonsense 😂 Took a while for it to make sense
About throw loops, only punish counter throws should have good oki, that way wakeup parry would be more risky than just block.
My hot take: throw loops are partially a result of the existence of parry being a defensive mechanic that covers nearly every option other than throwing and I think it dumbs down defense as a result. Most other fighting games I can think of that have some kind of alternative to blocking that isn't a reversal make it either involve strict timing (in other words you have to make a prediction), and/or at least has a high and low version.
I have agreed with you every single time you've talked about how one change would affect lots of other characters that do similar behaviors, but this video made me realize how much it may be a hot take that that's a bad thing. If your game is designed in a way that is so based on systems that you can't actually balance those aspects of characters, that's rough.
I'm the same in theory when it comes to liking or disliking throw loops, but if I can be honest, as a Jamie main, I feel that if I don't have that threat, I have very little to make you angsty in the corner; especially at low drinks or in MUs where you're forced to prioritize oki, like Guile. Walk up Stmp is a thing, but if you put me further away on throw, I have very little. All of this IF I won neutral with a character that starts severely hindered in the risk/reward footsie battle. I realize this might be more of a "Jamie needing dev love" problem, but just like you said about rush-firball nerfs might indirectly hurt characters who are suffering more, nerfing throw loops could hurt Jamie or AKI herself. i could see a possibility in these characters receiving proper buffs to at least compete with the hard hitters, together with removing the loops, I'm just scared of the scenario where Jamie gets an extra few plus frames here and there while losing throw loops, that would hurt like hell
Thats because Jamie is a shit character and should never have been added though. Any character that skips the neutral game for gimmicks is always pretty bad overall.
@@gavinpowell4607 holy moly that went south fast
@@ThreatLvMezzanotte Yeah idk what that other dude is yappin' about but agree with u when it comes to throw loops how it can affect other characters if it were removed. Plus i just like having throw loops when im playing ryu against zoners like dhalsim, guile, and JP because it's so important to stick to them and make the most out of your offense.
@@klaude4873 i'm not super into the loops myself, but if they were to remove them it would indirectly hurt certain low tier characters (even aki), so they would need to account for that
Not wanting a nerf to happen because it could affect your character is not a good way to think about the game.
System change is a system change
I completely agree unless they dumpster my character (I always pick top tiers that never get touched or somehow get buffed)
what he means is that, changing the system means everyone even bottom tiers (aki) are going to be affected, and bottom tiers might even take the worst L out of said change. To be honest i think most of ppl asking for system changes aren't thinking through the game and are only complaining because certain characters abuse said system, turning it into a character problem not system. Nerfing DR will fuck up characters who need DR to even work, but nerfing ken, deejay and juri DR means the characters who abuse the system will get to play the game like everyone else, and the complains about neutral will stop. I mean, what benefit would give nerf DR for aki, gief or marisa?! Ken, deejay and juri will still be god like characters who get alway with a lot of shit (i'm a juri player, i know how braindead i can be with her knowing how good my tools are).
I tend to agree here. I think fireball drive rush is stupid. Drive rush by itself raw in neutral is already extremely oppressive. Being able to throw out a barrier for it is overkill imo and is a free "get in" card in a lot of situations. I wouldn't mind if they removed the interaction from everyone.
Looking back at SFV, Guile was doing it with his Vtrigger, setting up 50/50s with multiple booms on screen. It was stupid back then, and it's still stupid now in this game.
Imma be honest, I wish Lily was a bit more like T. Hawk, but instead have it be that she would would have moves of her own. She’d be better if she were a bit more complicated, maybe condor dive can lead into something else instead of buttons or suplex. But I do think Zeku would be cool since it could lead into making your character in WT very interesting.
I think they should 1) make normals more plus on block 2) make it so Perfect Parry dosen’t work on normals to make the plus buttons not feel risky to use and prevent party spam lol I think it should just work on specials. 3) make buttons hit confirmable into special moves, not drive rush necessarily so a short window for drive rush and long window for dp cancel. Love the video broski! Really made me think what I think is missing from this game
I like Lily because she is the most pick up and play character on the roster. Very user friendly for people new to Street fighter. I reached Master rank in less than a week with her. All she really needs is a reliable wake up attack and a faster drive impact and she would be a lot more dangerous
My thing with Lily is how her wind messes with her combo routes. I wish she had a way to do specials and save the stock, like AA DP
I 100% agree that not all the SF2 World Warriors need to be in every game.
Characters like E. Honda, Blanka, and Dhalsim are consistently on the low end of usage; I really doubt a SF game will take a sales hit if they aren't playable. Let some other unique characters get some shine
I disagree, MK just did this and its one of the reasons I didn’t buy it. (No kano or Sonya)
You do know that one of the best SF6 tournament players mains Blanka, right?
I'll be fine without Blanka or Honda. But dhalsim is a representation that is needed.
@@_Jay_Maker_ What does that have to do with him still being a less played character?
@@chriswilson7288why is he needed?
Second impact music is Godlike especially Hugo‘s theme. Oh yeah, and Alex’s stage
I love Strive's juggle system cause its basically just what it looks like. Almost always if they look hittable, you can.
I just wish the training mode had some indicators for juggles. I've been saying that since week 1. When everyone was losing their mind over how good the training mode was. And I was perpetually asking for juggle points in training.
Im glad to hear you say that second impact deserves more credit. I thought i was one of the only ones who thought this lol.
Every time I watch a Broski video I learn more aki tech 😊
Some things i some get are some of the ridiculous things low teirs can get away with. I'm a Jamie player and i took the time to learn all my different moves and stuff, I'm probably on par to track into silver ranks, but I'm stuck iron and bronze because i meet players who abuse and spam the same 3 attacks. Of course I've adoted and gotten better, but it's taken me a week to get out of iron since taking this game seriously because i met a guile who can't stop tornado kicking, or a grab happy manon and zangeif. There's no reason a grab should take 20% of my health and then loop again for another, especially in low rank when people can't throw escape, that's not fun. I had to spend 2 hours in practice learning throw escapes just to counter that. Even then i still meet a zangieff or manon that wrecks me because their throws eat half my health. There's no reward in a coin flip. I have all the tools to play and counter play most people, then i get in a match with a guy who just spams and spams and spams and i lose because they learned to throw loop and so their beefy attack that eats 30% health.
I genuinely think that Lily is a wepl designed character in concept, but Capcom forgot that normals need to be special cancelled in this game when they were executing her design.
Hand to my heart I believe she'd be somewhat decent if she could hitconfirm literally anything
Much like Manon and Zangief, Capcom has always had an irrational fear of grapplers and have handicapped them way too much throughout the years. Any time they creep near top tier, ala SF4 Gief and SFV Mika, the changes are swifter and more aggressive than with any other archetype.
I would've preferred laura over blanka for sure
Same.
I only started watching your content recently, but you've quickly become one of my favorite creators in the fgc. I really appreciate how you are chill and informative, and you don't make inflammatory/sensational stuff. You always have a pretty fair and balanced take on things. Also, your AKI is sick and it's tight that you champion her.
In terms of SF6 takes, I don't think there is any argument against the base roster being a snooze fest (no SFIII, no Final Fight, too much SFII) and Lily is just T. Hawk but somehow more boring (I love T. Hawk)
I disagree on the music because I honestly think the music helps get you into the mindset calculating what to do vs what the opponent does. On its own listening outside the game I agree it will never be an ost I search up to listen to but ingame but makes me focus, especially kim, juri and cammy's themes. It especially helped reinforce not tryna rushdown every single moment I could because the only fighting game I sunk proper time into before sf6 was DBFZ where the music and pace of gameplay were completely different and everything was frantic and fast
My SF6 hot take is that burnout needs to be less of a complete game-over state when it happens. Even if they don't nerf its penalties at all, or heck even if they increase the duration of the state to compensate, I think that landing hits and playing well should reduce the timer on it by a much larger amount. Supers in particular should restore a lot more burnout timer on hit.
_Right now you can get put into burnout, have a brawl with the opponent for a while and land a few hits and short combos, but ultimately lose because a good 60% of your options are gone, while the opponent only needs to land or get you to block any hit to win.. The next 5-10 seconds is spent getting pushed to the corner with the opponent's advancing plus frames, they try and DI you but you successfully read the timing on it and spend super meter against them.._
_... And you go through it again because you're still only 2/3 out of burnout.._
I'm so happy Ed boi is coming but maaaaan I really want Sean
I think throw loops needs to be gone but u can still have oki of being plus 1 or 2 after a dash
Yeah I remember trying crumble and juggles combos with Aki and it drove me nuts. I had to watch a lot of TH-cam to understand it.
Something that I think could’ve helped the soundtrack would’ve been more use of vocals/samples. The character themes especially feel incomplete at the moment; something along the lines of Elena’s “Beats in my Head” would’ve really added some personality.
25:48 Wow so that's what it was lol like I know you need the od chain for the dr>fHk to hit but I didn't know why. good to know
Good thoughtful takes on stuff even if I don't agree with everything and some interesting points I didn't consider. The biggest notion that stood out to me that touches everything is how important fun is to balance. If the game isn't fun what does it matter if it's perfectly balanced. It's a game and should be fun to play winning and even though it's hard, fun while losing. If anyone wants the most perfectly balanced game they can just go play chess(respect to chess).
My proposed nerf for JP OD amnesia is to have two separate versions for strike and throw. JP’s counter as is isn’t exactly mechanically different from an invincible reversal, aside from the fact that it can’t directly punish jabs. Having two separate moves to COUNTER specific offensive options would give JP a situational high risk high reward mechanic that is functionally different from a standard reversal.
12:40 I kind of agree with the throw loops, it's too easy to pul off (some characters literally just have to do a framekill jab or dash), it doesn't matter if you are a SF pro or someone who just picked up the game for 10 minutes, it loops into itself and basically devolves a huge amount of the match into complete guesses with completely awful R:R, especially with how easy it is to corner carry, or side switch in SF6. You can get rid of them, I actually prefer James Chen's suggestion but personally I think the SF6 throw system is way too dull and remedial, I would much rather have 6f throw invul like 3S or CVS2 and change the way the throw actually works. They'll never do it though, it would open up the game to OSs and advanced techniques which will basically allow pros to completely smash beginners and intermediates.
You can see why they added throw loops to begin with, it's 100% because of PP, so let's see what they do. The biggest change I want honestly is for burnout to sting significantly more. My idea is that if you recover from burnout, your 2 whole stocks of drive are completely gone every time (similar to guard crush in alpha 3), and if you burnout 3x in a round, you are perpetually burned out. I also think burnout should last longer and I would significantly reduce drive regeneration from it, or something. I've noticed that a big reason the top tiers are the way they are is 1. They fight extremely well out of burnout (Luke, JP, Guile in neutral, etc.) 2. Are complete nightmares to deal with in burnout (JP, Ken, Cammy, DJ etc.) or both. The crap, lower tier characters have a very hard time fighting out of burnout, eg. bad supers or bad confirmable buttons to super, or literally don't do anything to a burned out character as they can freely replenish drive. And then, even shittier, the person who freshly recovered all their drive starts with 6 so they are 90% of the time at a drive advantage vs the other player who are usually low, which actually incentivizes players to burn themselves out and then play like complete nuts and be rewarded. I feel it's completely backwards and goes against the entire idea of the drive system and how it was designed to reward smart meter management rather than nutty play.
That hidden juggle property is sick af ngl.
Ryu's theme from SFV lives rent free in my mind.😀
I like lily :( i haven't dived into fighting games before and she clicked rlt fast. Got me to diamond in under 50 hours.
Her kit is easy, but it allowed me to learn the fundamentals very fast bc me losing is never an execution error, it's always because i reacted wrong or didnt know how somethint works.
I agree completely about Lily. I was excited when I heard about what she was described like in the leaks. A smaller grappler character in a FG franchise, where they are typically bigger, sounded really cool. I was excited to see where they would take a character like that. So when her gameplay came out, and more so when the game was released, i was really disappointed.
For JP’s OD Amnesia in addition to bomb disappearing when hit I would make it not invincible to command grab, but still invincible vs normal grabs. JP already has great matchups vs every command grab character in the game, the fact that he can punish both normal and command grabs makes grapplers game (characters who have a harder time getting oki, but have better mixs when they do) just miserable.
The thing that really fucks me up about Lily is her horrendous baby face in the loading screen and with the game face feature but in game she looks way older and cooler
She literally looks like the gerber baby in the loading screen lmao
When is the ED reaction video coming?
The grab loop discussion was absolute truth
The soundtrack is a bop
One of my biggest complaints is being able to drive rush behind a fireball that is on screen
LIGHT MODEEEE TWITTTERRRR
MY EYESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Feel like with a little more production value and a little more fanfare could make this series like, Will It Kill? level of popularity. Hype af concept
Reading tweets??? U trippin
I wish we had third strike characters like Remy and Necro
Your case for throwing loops having to go is both the one opinion I agree with the most (because you accurately point out that strategy is twain boring and unsightly), and the one assessment I least expected from a professional player, as I was under the impression most people that play for a living seldom take the actual enjoyment of the game into consideration for they judgement, gameplay-wise, which is at the same time sad and wry; Kudos on your approach to gaming, Broski.
Capcom needs to add all the quirky characters of past in one game for once. See how it goes. Lily does need some minor tweaks, it's a hit or miss with brand new entries
I main Dhalsim, and all I want is his OD Yoga Blast to be an invincible wake-up. Not fair that characters can fly across the screen with drive rush, have plus on with a heavy attack, even with block, then just add an invincible reversal on top of it. I mean WTF?
Lily is fine design wise for the most part. I'm a T-hawk player from ST, I'm fine with her being the new generation of T-hawk since for the most part they feel similar. The wind charges are something I feel are there just for the sake of being different and aren't really neccesary. T-Hawk's biggest strength was literally throw loops in ST, after that he was kind of a mediocre grappler that happened to have a reversal and a move that acted almost like a command dash with how it was used (condor spire has always been a way to close space, Lily's version even has that in the description of the move in the list). I guess you could argue that spire with a charge is too safe, but everytime I land a counter hit with st.short after empowered spire it's 100% the opponent mashing like an idiot (the one thing people cry about since release for Lily and people still mash).
As for the idea of Lily blocking T-hawk's return, that's fine too TBH. Lore wise it's time for the next generation of fighters to step up, and she fits in for him just fine. We have better options for grapplers anyway, like Hugo they keep teasing in the background of nearly every clip they release with posters and stuff.
Condor Spire is just not good for the game flow, and is made even worse by Lily's overly simple toolkit. Imagine if Ken had an untechable command grab that he could pop after H Dragonlash, or if Gief or Manon had a forward-advancing, plus-on-block special that led into one.
I mained lily at launch and I never felt she was terrible. Weak yes but not unwinnable. With lily all I want is back jump condor dive and OD T buster be invul with wind.
She does not need a redesign. She just needs anti-air combos that do (more) damage and cr. MK to not be ten fucking frames of startup.
as a gief main that's used to putting people into the 3LPLK roullette, i won't miss throw loops that much they're just a super frustrating part of the game. though like, please give me green hand or something. at least fix chop. level 1 + 2 both have issues but i've kind of accepted it's unlikely they'll fix them, the problems of them really do just feel very on purpose.
Broski please add a black outline to your chat overlay it’s so hard to read chat in these videos