Phoenix man claims firefighters violated ambulance refusal law
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ต.ค. 2024
- A Phoenix man says the city’s fire department violated state law when firefighter-paramedics did not promptly take him to a hospital during a heart attack last September.
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I’m a retired phoenix paramedic and if this man’s claims are true then those paramedics should be fired!!
Yes. How can we find out the names of the particular employees for twitter?
This happened to my wife 2 years ago. They actively tried to convince me to take her myself. They told me how expensive it would be and it would be a better idea if I took her myself. Which I ended up doing.
You can train all you want but you can’t fix lazy!
I worked on an ambulance and we would get yelled at If we did not try to get the patient into the ambulance.
Can’t fix Lazy nor STUPID.
I was a medic in the 80’s and we were never allowed to make any diagnosis or tell anyone that they shouldn’t be transported by ambulance. When did that change? That man was a code 3 run by ambulance with no questions asked.
It’s never changed, but there is definitely a culture in some areas of transporting as a last resort almost as a competition to see if you can get a refusal no matter what. Every Medic and Basic knows this stuff and it’s acted like a big “training update “ to retrain staff to no longer “diagnose” patients. It’s hammered constantly in school that we are not diagnosing providers. Sad. There is absolutely abuse of the 911 system but it’s always blown me away to see refusals on calls like chest pain with classic symptoms but no EKG changes (at the time), and see medics state like it’s Gods word that they are not having a heart attack and don’t need to go to the hospital… Always error on the side of what is best for the patient, offer resources, alternatives to the ER etc etc and then if an adult doesn’t want to go have them sign the refusal form and inform them of the risks and to seek immediate help if the problems reoccurs or gets worse. A lot of the issues stem from departmental or even shift/crew Culture but education also plays a big part. Paramedic training covers a ton of information in a short period of time. I think just the core medic classes were right around 60 credits when I went through, all crammed in to 7 months of class. Not to mention the practical requirements which I don’t remember but it was somewhere around 20 x 24 hr shifts on a Fire/EMS unit with a preceptor and 20 or more 12hr hospital shifts in various units/specialties. It’s very easy to just want to go to Fires, Extrications and Trauma/violent incidents but that attitude erodes the hell out of the quality of care in the other 97% of the job. The job is mostly medical and mostly involves non critical calls. Complacency kills. Literally.
It's all about money, nothing else. Least of all a person's well being.
That 1.65 million dollar settlement would have paid for 1,100 ambulance trips and here we go again. It's almost like these responders were treated in the penny wise and pound foolish American health system.
This applies to our entire social system
Its sad that they have to pass a law to dictate what should already be standard policy.
@donnam...agree 100%...need a law to make common sense?smh at the direction we as people are headed...maybe a law making them wear a shock collar to shock them everytime they do something against common sense...lol
Phoenix fire has a very turbulent history.
Collect that money! First responders continue to show that they lack much needed empathy. Shameful, absolutely shameful..
Shame on you Phoenix Fire Fighters!! This happened to me last summer. The paramedic was angry and became abusive towards me when I insisted on being transported because I had no other way to get to the hospital. I was diagnosed in the ER with a life threatening condition and was admitted. Thankfully I insisted on being transported.
Sue the city like this guy did
I'm glad you're okay
Why would they do this? What's the benefit to dissuading people from going in an ambulance?
I know they act like they are paying for the trip . They are lazy and don't want to do anything
Exactly. This makes no sense.
They do this all the time. They try and force you to sign a refusal. If not, they just "adjust" the paperwork.
I love how they say we've received extensive training on the new law. You shouldn't have needed extensive training in the first place. Paramedics are trained to do exactly what the job entails. They know better.
Fire departments are usually only First Responders or EMTs at best, not Paramedics. However, when in doubt go to the ER. They should have either transported or strongly suggested that the patients go immediately to the ER.
That being said.
It is amazing how many patients decline transport when,
they are told the ambulance only hauls to the ER and not back.
Or when they hear it cost $1500-$2500 that insurance may not cover.
@@pocketchange3543 perfectly scripted 🤭 which one are you
Sue the heck out of them. This is ridiculous.
@crinklecut...the issue is those lawsuits are paid by taxoayers not those commiting the offenses
dont talk to the news, talk to the lawyers
No talk the news, so if it get fo the jury they know it is a BS case. If there were no bystander when George Floyd was killed those cops would still kneeling on people neck for trying to pass a $20.00 bill you may have no clue is fake. I would probably not know if someone gave me a fake billè. I do not care if drug may have effected Mr Floyds death because what actually killed was those cops indifference while he was having a medical emergency and the medic actually had to tell the jury that he basically had to start pulling the cop off Mr Floyd to be able to provide care. Instead those cops acting like they were in some trance and were going to just do what they were doing for another 3o min or something.
I've never heard of such a thing. Doesn't the fire dept get paid the $1500? This story makes no sense. The FD is very happy to transport you & collect the $1500 where I live.
Try calling 911 while being in a poor neighborhood. If you can get them to take you to the hospital, they usually tell the emergency department you just a junky looking for drug. It could be hours before they realize you need real help.
It's crazy that this isn't just common sense and a LAW had to be created............
Three words: Class Action Lawsuit!
I use to volunteer as a paramedic at our local fire department back in the 80s and the rule was if the person wanted to go or in doubt we took them. I can see telling someone going by ambulance is one thing but telling somebody they have chest pains and saying well your Bridals are signed are fine so we're not sending you is a whole different thing. You can have perfect vital and still be having a heart attack or stoke. Also what is normal for one person is not for someone else. For example my normal pulse rate is in the 40's so when my heart rate is like 110 that is like 160 for someone else. Even doctor miss this. I was having issues with my BP being really high for like 2 weeks and I could not stand for like 2 min with out passing test. Well even though my blood pressure was like 230/130 the doctor wanted to send me home where I live by muself and coukd barely stand long enough to get a glassmof water let alone care for myself. I was at the VA and the nurse was like you cannot release her because it would not be safe. Well the doctor was a new resident and he was like are we suppose to be babysitter. The nurse said we are here to support our Veterans and we cannot release someone who will not be safe at school. So while the doctor acted like my BP was just a 2 week panic attack ( that they got to see for 6 hours) they finally do some blood work with the doctor saying well I am so surprised but you BP is starting to damage you heart but he just wanted to send me home like I was just a hypochondriac and this is a new doctor with this kind of attitude fortunately he will not be at the VA for more than his year rotation.
He should sue them. It happened to me too
This is absolutely nuts and unacceptable!
All the FDs that I've dealt with, predominately Chicago FD, are absolutely great and actively work on finding the most suitable hospital to go to. They will not just go to the closest hospital if the situation demands a trauma 1 center instead.
But, I've only heard and seen them say that a visit to the hospital does not appear necessary but willing to take the patient if they, or their parents, so choose.
Diagnosing is done by doctors, nurse practitioners (with a sign-off by a doctor) for good reason-- liability!
FDs are great and EMTs are necessary. But they aren't trained to do a differential diagnosis and know definitively anything! That's the whole reason why doctors request labwork and imaging tests, so that they can rule out or rule in things. And even then, it's not definitive!
THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I LEFT EMS. EXACTLY WHY. I joined as a volunteer and eventually got a job doing it but I loved what I did with helping people and saving lives. The profession changed. Lots of late teens and early twenties people joining the paid side. It was more about the money to them then quality of care and bedside manner. "Frequent Flyer" patients were treated as a joke and disrespectfully and there was zero accountability when I filed formal complaints, plus I was retaliated against. Then came for us to ask for SS# as a requirement. I refused. I told them, let the hospital deal with that. My job is to assess patients, work within my scope of practice, and transport. I am not a billing agent. I got wrote up several times for not asking for a patients SS#. Then I decided to go to Paramedic school and there was literally so much politics, I quit. I understand that patient care is not free and someone has to pay for it but I got tired of co-workers and everyone else making patient care less of a priority over money. If someone is clearly having a cardiac event, you stabilize and transport as fast as god will let you. You don't have a 10 min conversation about how you may not see all the signs and symptoms or about how much the ambulance costs. You show empathy, you assess and do a risk assessment, and if that patient is in trouble, the next thing out of your mouth is "Lets get this person on the stretcher and move". These young people have no idea what its really like being a real EMT or Medic. They just want a nice paycheck and feel patients are taking away from their time checking social media.
Everyone involved should lose there license and be brought up on charges
I also have pissed off parametics for always trying to not transport a patient. I called another service to transport.
I had a similar issue just a few months ago. I had what I thought was a heart attack (former EMT/firefighter) and I dialed 911. The operator sent the fire department which has no way to transport me rather than sending a bus. I had to be assessed by the Firefighter EMT's who were quite rude before an ambulance was summoned. I was given two doses of nitroglycerin to ease the pain and these jokers were more concerned about me signing their insurance paperwork that anything else. It was the worst experience I have ever had with a firefighter team and I used to be one.
They also made mention of me being overly dramatic and I threatened litigation if they didn't get a bus (ambulance) here pronto. I ended up having a blockage in my intestines which would have killed me had it not been dissolved with medications, no thanks to the Phoenix Fire department.
I hope someone connects him with the Institute for Justice.
Class action lawsuit
Sorry but that paramedics should lose his license because he's practicing outside the scope of his license. As a paramedic his job is to treat and stablize the patient from what signs and symptoms the patient present with until the patient get to the ER. Paramadic are not trained to diagnose exactly what is wrong with somebody . You cannot tell somebody is having a heart attack anyway unless you actually do certain tests like blood work, EKG etc to see if there's been damaged done to the heart ect. While panic attacks can present in similar ways you do not take that risk especially when the patient is older and does not have a history of panic attacts before. Basically is lazy care. It is like when someone is in a car accidenand hot there head and they may have slurred speech. Well instead ensuring the patient does not have a head injury many time cops just think the person is drunk delaying care. Well again cops are not trained fo diagnosed to determine what kind of medical condition somebody is in. They are trained in very basic first aid. The paramedic job is to stablize and transport.
Mesa fire refused to transport my 87 year old father when he was sick. I made them come back the next day and demanded they transport him after they again tried to talk him and me out of going. They finally took him in and he died 2 days later. F the Mesa FD they are the worst.
Come on Phoenix Arizona firefighters and parameters not responding
I live in Albuquerque, a crime ridden crap hole 🕳️ and you couldn't pay me enough to live in Phoenix ugh
My cousin in a nursing home patient/ inmate -- he is a LARGE man and paralyzed from hips down --- anyway a few years ago he was having a heart attack and informed staff that his chest and shoulder were burning - gasping for breath - they gave him old school Milk of Magnesia for his 'heart burn' -- he was dripping cold sweat and he picked up his phone and called 9=eleven himself for aid --- got bitched at thoroughly from staff who were trying to prevent EMS from even going in his ROOM! Finally allowed to attend to him - found my cousins blood pressure down to 83/47 and hauled him out of there and on to OPEN HEART SURGERY the follow day! He had 95% blockage in 3 - THREE arteries and did a double by-pass surgery and more - he spent over 3 weeks in hospital but is doing ok enough now Dude is only 64yrs old and is still able to get out regularly once he's hoisted in to his power-chair....
Nursing homes don’t want to pay that $1,500 charge. They usually call less expensive private ambulances.
Well Paramedic are not trained to diagnosis. There job is to treat the patient by the sign and symptom and stablize or keep the pafient stablized until at the hospital. Did they even do a eeg on him and look at his heart rhythm. It looks like the guy that was talking about the 1500 bucks did not even look at the patient before he decided someone did not need a ride. Not only that, depending on your insurance you may pay a lot less. I can understand thinking maybe a 20 years old is probably having a panic attack instead of heart attack, but a over weight male who is in his mid 40's or older and never had a panic attack, is just being incompetent. The paramedics who do this need to lose their license. This is just like a cop who slams a handcu 4:18 ffed person face in the wall. They get this God complex and go way past what their license allows or commits them to do.
The fire dept shouldn't be handling ambulance calls. Duh!😵😵😵
Don't agree with signing papers. If there's a fire,do you fight the fire,or sign papers
I think it's a lot about power they think they're Heroes but there's zeros just like a lot of police forces it's more than just a few bad apples
You have to sign a patient refusal form before they FD is allowed to leave
What good is that when they tell the patient they don’t need to go and try to talk them out of it?
@@leebrown6247 they FD can’t just get up and leave. The patient had to sign the patient refusal form in order for the firefighters to leave
@@leebrown6247 I’m saying the video posted has misinformation
The FD "signs it for them" in other words they forge the signature and just leave.
@@Mannyp91 you’re saying that there isn’t at least one person who would say something about a forged signature?
Im sorry but every single interaction Ive ever had with a Fireman, has revealed them to be extremely self-serving and snobbish Public Servants. Plus, they seem to move super, duper slow at responding to real Fire Calls and/or Acoustics Weapons Fire Alarms! That just recently happened where I live in Palm Springs, CA. It took them nearly 30 mins to get to a call, when they are literally 2 blocks away. Then, displayed no urgency and/or energy to quickly resolve an extremely loud False Alarm!
I am a retired firefighter and you can't hold all firefighters because you live somewhere that has bad service. But when a firefighter, EMT, or cop shows up, that may be the only time you interact with first responders. So be the best person you can be.
The guys was having chest pains at 8:30 am as he stated in the beginning which he knew at that point he was probably having a heart attack why did he wait 13 hrs later to call 911 AFTER he passes out. He delayed his out treatment. He had every opportunity during that time to seek treatment and he didn’t. The cities lawyers will use this video against him.🤦♀️
Instead of trying to refusing transporting people the city needs to be trying to do something about the cost of transporting people. Seems to me if the city owns the ambulance why does it cost so much to transport because the paramedics have to paid anyway even when setting at the station doing nothing.
Hope he sued big
Phoenix get your s*** together. That is really sad and quite honestly embarrassing when you have to have a law for this No wonder Phoenix has one of the worst healthcare systems
I believe him 100%.
THIS is scary police doing "welfare checks" (medical issue) AND (4:43) fire ambulances, these services should not be mixed (they aren't here)
Fire - fire fighters
Law - law enforcement
medical - doctors / nurses
I’m not understanding why they care…how is talking folks out of taking an ambulance benefiting them?
LAZY
You are there to do one thing take them to the hospital not turn them down your a ambulance driver not a Dr
I know what ill do with $1500 bucks.
Yet that man cost the city 1.6 million. If i was leader i be like yeah umm your a liability sir here is your pink slip.
Wonder if the medics made him neglect his body for 60 years also. Everything is always someone else's fault. Chest pain started in the morning and you called at 2130 at night, yeah o.k. guy.
In 2021, PFD responded to 208,000 of these calls! Almost 600 EVERY DAY! 112,000 were classified as critical. There are only 24 full-time ambulances! Another 15 supplemental. 39 total for 1.6 million people. NYC has 450 for 8.5 million, who is 2-3x per capita.
Wow…even the firefighters in Phoenix suck .. at least the PD and FD share a camaraderie.
That's a good idea
Thats a sweet toilet yo
Good job!!! Pain started in the morning and you called at 9pm.
A1500 hundred ride to the er i s cheap compared to a heart attack.
Arizona cops fire ambulance departments all garbage whats going on
That's horrible! It may have hit home as I'm also 67 but my State would never do that to someone no matter what their income or insurance is. I didn't know its wasn't the law of the land
Fouled plug😊
When my father had a heart attack, he drove himself to the hospital! He decided to wait for someone who was leaving from a close parking space!
There’s a reason ambulances are called “buses” in NYC. Everyone’s “having chest pains” and “needs to go to the ER”.
melissa is toight
You're a desperate soul, aren't you?