@@NegativeAirsoftTech and yes, gb being open exaggerates it but the force is still there, pushing piston that way. Unnecessary stress to the pick up area that can easily be eliminated, via aoe correction...
I made more advanced explanation why you should do AOE. This is of course simple from real world and it shows only situation in one point. th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html
Its not necessary unless its a high stress gun like a lot of things. A long as it doesn't shriek or its stock, it will last a while. For instance i heard how you can get a cyma krinkov isnt grindy and has good trigger response on an 7.4 stock. Most of the newer ones are like that. It also has the mushroom piston head but you'd still hear the grindy gears. It will last a long time stock. Once you upgrade the gb, start doing that shit first. Also sorbo absorbing impact does nothing for the gun. A faucet washer will do it just as good. It has far less give if any and if you don't check with the spring in while using a sorbo pad, then you either over or under correct. The point of aoe its to reduce wear on the sector gear and piston. Not the gearbox shell. That's what radiusing is for.
I know, this isnt tutorial how to properly correct and check aoe, thus not mentioned. This video was direct answer to negative airsoft for claiming the whole concept of aoe useless
By the japanese law airsoft guns cant shoot over nor be able to made shoot over 1j. Tm had to desing some weak links to the system that'd fail if one tried stronger spring that'd make the gun illegal. It's not that they wouldve not understood, it's about that they do what law tells them to do. I know guys who've been in the scene since 90s and that know some of the og guys behind marui and they've told that they knew what aoe was and how it'd benefit but they scrapped it because they cant make their gun too reliable if one swaps the spring.
You're saying to check sources, then you claim airsoft manufactures aren't inventing anything or "oeming" their own products without citing any sources.
Dont wanna drown down to your level on commenting but still kinda funny youre still butthurt about this thing. Have you ever heard of theory in which people blindly believe the one whos the loudest? In the internet facts dont matter, only the one who has more followers. This makes people who dont know to think theyd have some credit and knowledge. Sad fact but nothing to be done for it. If you didnt notice, i used some actuals facts instead of random thoughts. I also have friends with actual mechanical engineering degrees and even more facts and physics knowledge than i do. I still think science wins "i think this goes way" thinking. If you check zakkez's video, his even more in dept than i did on the video. Matter of fact is that pistons we use nowadays can withstand a lot more of forces than ones that were used years ago did. It might be marginal (especially in sub 1j builds) how much of a difference in durability aoe does, but the priciple still stands. Nothing is going to change the laws of physics, no matter what you try to say.
@@nikonieminen1207 not butt hurt at all... I like to encourage people to write an essay response that I don't read more than one line of. I'd have forgotten if people didn't find this by mistake and send me the link as a joke.
@@NegativeAirsoftTech I get that we get bored during Covid lockdown but this seems a bit childish.. He does have a solid point and it's a shame to read you can't have a civil conversation about airsoft theory when it gets a little bit more complicated.
Better and better. In higher rof setups, no its not cause it adds piston mass thus increasing the risk of pme. Tho for higher fps the added piston mass increases the joule creep which on the other hand puts less stress on the gearbox because one can use lighter spring. They both work just fine and both have their use cases. As long as the aoe is corrected, really doesnt matter which in 95% of the cases, its all good. Gearboxes nowadays are so strong anyway that they really dont need to added shock absorption. Piston lasts well too so aoe isnt as big deal anymore as it used to be but still recommended
Depends on situation. The video wasnt to tell in which cases its necessary, it was to tell what was the principle and reasons for it. Nothing necessary ever, just drop the parts in and replace them as they break 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️ But counter argument on his video was "manufacturers dont do bad designs, if they dont it, no one should" and thats just plain stupid Current piston, shells, everything are strong and survive fine but i tried to explain thw physics behind it
No he is not. Think about yourself... Correcting AOE is useless. WHAT does IT help if you correct AOE? It is funny how people really think that you have to correct your AOE. I have done guns For people For Many years now and i know that it is not. And If some man on The internet tells you To put some rubber to your cylibder head I really wouldn't do it.
@@louhis7158 And There the problem. If youre question Ing how does it help, then you dont know enough to actually say, What is useless or not :). Build SP170 SSG setup then, without corrected AOE, it Will eat pistons as snacks :). Then maybe you will think About Basic mechanics.
My aeg back then was shooting at 1.7j and I didn't correct the AOE. I just shimmed it to perfection and upgraded the compression parts so that air seal is perfect, in my experience it worked flawlessly without issues and haven't got a breakdown. I also checked wear and no visible wear after some time so yeah. I don't think it's very important to correct things that manufacturers didn't even bother correcting.
Ok buddy, youre clearly missing the point i was trying to make and i bet you havent even seen the video i was referring to. I never said aoe is mandatory, but id never say that its useless because manufacturers dont do it. I was just answering to bullshit negative airsoft said
@@JedociderShou sorry i just woke up lol. But yea, im just bored on hearing comments on this because yeah, modern parts can last a ton of torture but one has to know what are the good parts and wjat are not. But the most stupid argument i heard on this topic is "manufacturers did it this way, has to be correct" and hearing anyone refer to that makes my blood boil 😅 Because mosfets are perfect example. No manufacturer used them, some individuals started to make, manufacturers realized those guys were into something and you know where we are with this today 😁
@@nikonieminen1207 well maybe I'm wrong about that manufacturer thingy but yeah I do understand TM just don't need to do it coz of their power regulations. Sorry about that. But yeah things are more better now. Still gonna correct AOE on 2j builds (DMR) tho 🤣
I love when you say the manufacturer’s don’t do it because they have always done it that whay and don’t want to improve it. Lol come on dude how was your bullshit alert 🚨 not going off. Yeah ok m8 so your saying that these manufacturers have no interest in having a gun that’s more reliable than their competition.
Have you ever heard of an involute gear? With AOE correction, you are changing from a progressive roll on to the first tooth to what you probably believe is 100% contact. That's just going to add more stress to the part. Have you considered your comments might be misleading? Plus, a clean work space will go a long way.
The direction of the force in the different positions of the contact. When the piston has been aoe corrected, the force is going more backwards than upwards, thus putting less stress to the "bridge" under the pick up tooth. If you have any link to prove me wrong, please post them. Not saying i know everything but this is simple physics. And yes, it was messy as i had been cleanong other room and piling other shot to the desk and didnt bother to clean it just for the video...
@@nikonieminen1207 No, not SIMPLE physics. This makes me question your understanding. It's gear tooth shape. Don't ask me to prove anything. Again, involute gear, google it yourself.
@@Shep211283 solid theory that applies in other parts of this system but not in pickup teeth. Balance of momentum and adjusting is would be a proper one here. And isn't it basis of civilized dialogue to offer the proof for argument? :)
@@pmakiku The problem and my opinion is that there are comments being made with no understanding of the engineering. When I mention engineering I am met with answers like, simple physics or it doesn't matter in that part of the gearbox. I bet you the Tokyo Marui engineer that designed the Gear and the Piston knew exactly what they were doing and never factored in a sorbopad because it isn't needed and has no added value. Happy to have a civilised conversation with anyone willing to take 10 minutes to understand the science and that the people who design the gearboxes know more about the parts than us.
@@Shep211283 Sorry for the late reply did not get the notifications about this thread :) As a matter of fact, I have talked with people who were involved in V1 and V2 designing back in the day and they did indeed understand the angle of engagement. The reason, why it was like that, was/is that Tokyo Marui is restricted in certain power levels and the solution right now is good enough for 0.6-0.9J that they are making and are restricted to in Japan. And this is more of a streamlining the production etc. The original system is not designed for the power levels that we are now using especially in western countries.
Yeah indeed, its all about the combination. Not sure if youve seen the video im referring to but there Negative Airsoft said its totally pointless in every case to even bother looking how the aoe is. He just tells to slap the piston in and call it a day
Marcus Aurelius that’s all you dude. If you actually corrected the angle of engagement, you wouldn’t be stripping pistons. You probably did something wrong and are blaming it on aoe. All aoe correcting has one goal: to find the optimal angle for the sector teeth to pick up on the piston rack teeth. Since the gear teeth are beveled/slanted, there is an optimal angle for them to contact each other. By spacing the piston to the correct distance through the use of shims, you can achieve this optimal angle between the piston and the sector. Typically, this means the sector gear pickup tooth is slightly less than 90 degrees from the horizontal.
As Shep has stated. I have no qualifications or education but I do understand that the gear needs to progressively grap the piston. If you grease it properly there should be minimal to no grinding on that first tooth. If you dont progressively grap that tooth then you are just impacting it with 100% force. When you guys show angle of engagement you always move the gear with finger which is so slow compared to what actually happens inside the gearbox.
When the aoe is too front, it'll hit with exactly the same force but to a way smaller area, thus making higher pressure/stress. This combined with force going upwards in an angle, instead of backwards, it'll break the piston way faster, especially with plastic teeth.
If AOE is such a big problem, why did TM not do it in the first place with their initial gearbox design? How come a stock TM doesn't have a sorbo pad, but still works better and lasts longer than one with. And i'm pretty sure that they are much more experienced people than dudes in their garages.
Because japanese law limits the power of the gun up to 1j. This same law also says that gun cant be upgraded over 1j. This is why they have springs fixed to piston etc. Also, if one drops for example m120 spring into a regular marui gesrbox, the piston will break because its designed to do so because other wise itd shoot too hot in Japan
@@Zaevia i dont think i claimed that itd effect the strenght of the piston itself. But the thing it effects is direction of the force, caused by sector hitting the piston. The force itself will stay the same but the direction changes. When the aoe is on spot, the force is will be directed to the way the piston travels. When its off, its directed partially to pistons direction and partially up, towards the middle of piston. This change in force vector is what makes or breaks the piston
It’s true that he’ll never know airsoft guns like negative airsoft. That’s because he already knows fucking better. There’s a reason why negative airsoft and his methods are shit on by pretty much the whole tech community. I haven’t seen him do a single actual high performance build nor have i seen a single actual good reasoning for some of his methods that are actually based on physics. He has his place with fixing broken guns for people who don’t know of better performance and no, his fanboys have no clue about what an actually well tuned and high performing gun is
Until the manufacturer gives a aoe specification you’ll never know if your fixing it or making it worse. What is the correct aoe your saying it’s 90 degrees but is this your opinion of where you think it should be or have the manufacturers advised it. I get what your saying but I’m not sure what your basing your conclusion on.
@Kevin Stringer sorry, didn't see the comment until now. But i i dont i ever said 90 degrees, and for a good reason. 90 isnt the best. The best aoe is when sector's and piston's pick up teeth have the largest contact area between other. This way the momentum from the spinning gear spreads out evenly. Also as i tried to show on the video, the direction of the force, from the gear to the piston, differs by the position when the first is made. A bit too much aoe (which 90 degree is) is better than too little because it doesnt hit the pistons pick up tooths corner, in which cause some if the force would go upwards and possibly break the pick up support. Kinda hard to explain but i hope you get my point
The Specna Arms AOE "fix" applies to the motor to pinion engagement, not sector gear to pinion rack engagement. You've decided that "fixing the AOE" is the correct theory and you're looking for arguments supporting that, even misconstruing existing information to support what you believe. Another point I'd like to make is that an involute gear tooth (like you'll find on all the gears inside a GB) is designed to roll into the tooth it's engaging with, not slide or grind as you're surmising. With proper lubrication the line of engagement inherent to an involute gear will cause no problem to the piston rack.
Now you are mixing the things. The angle of engagement is literally one when talking about the sectorgear to piston interaction. What you are talking about here is the meshing of motors pinion gear and bevel gear. Please do check this th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html (turn the translation on) for the second statement of yours :)
@@pmakiku "What you are talking about here is the meshing of motors pinion gear and bevel gear." And that's exactly what Specna Arms aims to fix with their Edge series. What Niko claims is that what SA is doing is "fixing" the AOE between sector gear and piston rack. They're not.
@@RobinGlijn Dont have audio at hand right now so I cannot confirm what Niko is saying but: In all the 12 edge series guns that I have personally built for customers and my own field rentals, they have had OK AoE. And this I is achieved with the longer cylinder head and thicker pad on the cylinder head. Shimming is the topic of "The Specna Arms AOE "fix" applies to the motor to pinion engagement", not aoe
Bro the entire video is upside down. Fix something that simple then worry about correcting someone else. Also doing what your doing and adding a thick sorbo pad to the back of the cylinder head is altering the air volume/capacity ratio between the cylinder and the barrel. Not even watchable
Thats why you use a faucet washer instead or put it between the piston head and piston. The ladder of the 2 is how you do it for high rof and irregular cylinder heads like bore ups and v7.
Dude you made a video to call out negative airsoft and basically made yourself look worse and negative airsoft look that much more genius! Let’s face it you wish you were negative airsoft and had half his knowledge . Somebody isn’t in the industry for decades cause they don’t know what the fuck there talking about I’m pretty sure the man has a wealth of knowledge and maybe instead of barking you should listen might teach you something . This thread gave me such a good laugh thank you I will continue to watch negative airsoft and will probably never see another one of your videos !
Im sorry but i rather believe in physics than listen to some funky swearing british man. But as you wish, he may be good at argumenting cause he really thinks he's right; no mattet what the reality is.
@@nikonieminen1207 UK boiz shoot around 1 Joule on SSG, as their fps limit are. They will never understand all the value of these techniques. Which because there's no reason to understand... They never use a spring heavier than the M130 so... Arguing to them is useless.
@@minhthinhhuynhle9103 youre correct. Only reason i bother arguing is that anyone might see their content and not realize the things you said and then be wondering why parts keep on breaking
@@nikonieminen1207 I bough my first AEG 7 years ago, so I don't have too much experience, but I had two piston failures. One was on the front side so that is not interesting here the other one was when the first tooth cleanly broke off, no grinding marks or anything. Are you saying AOE correction would've prevented that? Since I've repaired that problem it's the same piston - although a better quality one, no AOE correction. I've never done it. I bough a specna in 2016, it's gearbox is still in factory state (I should really check it's shimming, it's not the most silent). I mean it's not like I play every weekend and I have more airsoft guns than I mentioned here but I don't see the need for doing the AOE correction.
@@sogerc1 well, it is possible that aoe could have preventef the failure or atleast given it more time. One can never say for sure. If you feel like you dont need sorbo, sure. The point of the video wasnt that i care if you use or not, this was a direct call out for negative for stating that aoe correction would be useless almost all the time
@@nikonieminen1207 unfortunately mate that makes you unqualified to state your observations as fact. The AOE thing is utter bullshit unless your doing something like short stroking a very high speed build.
@@chrisw3212 There are multiple people with mechanical engineering degrees supporting Nikos "observations" :) You are more than welcome to join us in r/airsoft discord to have a civilized discussion about the topic and we can show you the proper proof. YT Comment section is not ideal for this stuff.
@@chrisw3212 I made a "short" video where I explained theory behind AOE correction. Turn subtiles on th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html Ps. I have that degree and this video is a simple version. I did not count all factors in example pictures cause it was easier to do without them.
Y'all really hate eachother huh? Your both techs that get work sent to them so why you tryna disprove eachother? Just get the work sorted and leave the small bits out of it
You also realize he says CLEARLY guns shooting semi auto shouldn't need AOE guns shooting strictly full auto and not swapping between the 2 require AOE because high speed builds on LMG'S and full auto rifles used for suppressive fire and full auto will break if AOE isn't fine right but guns shooting semi automatic do not require it he even says it in his video and when he works on an LMG he basically says full auto guns require it if you use it just on full auto
Shall I trust you, the one that cannot spell the subtitles correctly, cannot keep his work space tidy and who seems to be unable to use a file like a normal human being Or, shall I trust Negative Airsoft and all of the major airsoft manufacturers of the world? Hhmmmmm 🤔
Well, at this point i dont give a shit anymore. The video was shot and edited fastly, simply because negative as turned comments off ans thus no one was able to comment and i wanted to say what's wrong. Didnt bother to put too much effort because i was kinda pissed at the time. + I'm on a teching break due to few reasons in personal life so i hadnt been teching before the video, thus the place being a mess and parts being something i found from the scrap box, just for demonstration. This video wasnt solely my own project, i planned it in advance with few guys who have been in the business since 90s and know guys who desingned the first gearboxes. + I also had a di running airsoft store who was also helping. So uh, it's just not me, i took care of the video because i had setup ready. Keep in mind manufacturers are buyers who order stuff, most the products come from same place, from same oems. They arent inventors or desingers, they just order stuff. This tech has proceeded quite a lot from the marui desing but 90% of the manufacturers still straight up clone it. So your call, you may trust physics or then you can trust cloners and a loud swearing guy who's been stuck on his ways for way too long and isnt willing to learn how to do things better
Showing of things related to aoe needs nothing but sector and piston. Other parts are useless at that point and i didn't bother to use. And so you really think i tech with desk looking like that? I didnt take any tasks during december and cleaned up my all my boxes during that time, threw out bad parts that were just laying around for no reason. You can either listen to what i say and show or either you can or can get tangled up on matterless things and not listen, your call
@@nikonieminen1207 it's not matter less you didnt show anything without having the gearbox put together. You're just talking and not showing any results
@@Jurnskii if i showed it gb closed you'd see nothing. What would have you wanted to see then? I went through the why to correct the aoe and what'll happen with good and bad aoe. And i think i showed that other piston showed that fake shs piston being ran without aoe. I threw it and run for few hundred (like around ~750) rounds to show what starts to happen, didnt run it until failure because it wouldnt have served a point at that time. Yeah, it was fake but it was enough to get the results i needed to be show on how it starts to wear the piston off, especially the ones with plastic teeth
You're brilliant!
Are you saying that every single airsoft manufacturer gets it wrong?
Brilliant!
I've subscribed.
It's going up because the gearbox casing is open...
Basically yes. Lately the improvement has started to happen tho, for example on said specna edges
@@NegativeAirsoftTech and yes, gb being open exaggerates it but the force is still there, pushing piston that way. Unnecessary stress to the pick up area that can easily be eliminated, via aoe correction...
@@saiairsoft1994 damn yall really hate each other
I made more advanced explanation why you should do AOE. This is of course simple from real world and it shows only situation in one point. th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html
Its not necessary unless its a high stress gun like a lot of things. A long as it doesn't shriek or its stock, it will last a while. For instance i heard how you can get a cyma krinkov isnt grindy and has good trigger response on an 7.4 stock. Most of the newer ones are like that. It also has the mushroom piston head but you'd still hear the grindy gears. It will last a long time stock. Once you upgrade the gb, start doing that shit first.
Also sorbo absorbing impact does nothing for the gun. A faucet washer will do it just as good. It has far less give if any and if you don't check with the spring in while using a sorbo pad, then you either over or under correct. The point of aoe its to reduce wear on the sector gear and piston. Not the gearbox shell. That's what radiusing is for.
If you do the AOE without the spring than the AOE will be off again because the spring will compress the sorbo pad and move the piston farther forward
I know, this isnt tutorial how to properly correct and check aoe, thus not mentioned. This video was direct answer to negative airsoft for claiming the whole concept of aoe useless
So what your saying Tokyo Marui the people who designed the airsoft gears and piston didn’t understand their gearbox they designed? yeah right
By the japanese law airsoft guns cant shoot over nor be able to made shoot over 1j. Tm had to desing some weak links to the system that'd fail if one tried stronger spring that'd make the gun illegal. It's not that they wouldve not understood, it's about that they do what law tells them to do. I know guys who've been in the scene since 90s and that know some of the og guys behind marui and they've told that they knew what aoe was and how it'd benefit but they scrapped it because they cant make their gun too reliable if one swaps the spring.
You're saying to check sources, then you claim airsoft manufactures aren't inventing anything or "oeming" their own products without citing any sources.
Well... 18 months on and reading the comments - this kinda backfired didn't it bud?
Dont wanna drown down to your level on commenting but still kinda funny youre still butthurt about this thing.
Have you ever heard of theory in which people blindly believe the one whos the loudest? In the internet facts dont matter, only the one who has more followers. This makes people who dont know to think theyd have some credit and knowledge. Sad fact but nothing to be done for it.
If you didnt notice, i used some actuals facts instead of random thoughts. I also have friends with actual mechanical engineering degrees and even more facts and physics knowledge than i do. I still think science wins "i think this goes way" thinking. If you check zakkez's video, his even more in dept than i did on the video.
Matter of fact is that pistons we use nowadays can withstand a lot more of forces than ones that were used years ago did. It might be marginal (especially in sub 1j builds) how much of a difference in durability aoe does, but the priciple still stands. Nothing is going to change the laws of physics, no matter what you try to say.
@@nikonieminen1207 not butt hurt at all...
I like to encourage people to write an essay response that I don't read more than one line of.
I'd have forgotten if people didn't find this by mistake and send me the link as a joke.
@@NegativeAirsoftTech Hey dude...is everything ok with you?
@@onr-o1h yarp :-)
@@NegativeAirsoftTech I get that we get bored during Covid lockdown but this seems a bit childish.. He does have a solid point and it's a shame to read you can't have a civil conversation about airsoft theory when it gets a little bit more complicated.
Piston head spacer would maybe be a better idea than sorbo?
Better and better. In higher rof setups, no its not cause it adds piston mass thus increasing the risk of pme. Tho for higher fps the added piston mass increases the joule creep which on the other hand puts less stress on the gearbox because one can use lighter spring. They both work just fine and both have their use cases. As long as the aoe is corrected, really doesnt matter which in 95% of the cases, its all good. Gearboxes nowadays are so strong anyway that they really dont need to added shock absorption. Piston lasts well too so aoe isnt as big deal anymore as it used to be but still recommended
@@nikonieminen1207 Thx for answering!
Do you think rendering the gearbox shell helps prevent cracking?
i think the only time u need to correct aoe is for DSGs and high ROF guns, even dmrs are fine with none.
Depends on situation.
The video wasnt to tell in which cases its necessary, it was to tell what was the principle and reasons for it. Nothing necessary ever, just drop the parts in and replace them as they break 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
But counter argument on his video was "manufacturers dont do bad designs, if they dont it, no one should" and thats just plain stupid
Current piston, shells, everything are strong and survive fine but i tried to explain thw physics behind it
Yea, my gate titan just showed 500k shots. I pulled the gearbox apart and my piston looks brand new. I did no "AOE" correction.............
That means, your lying your ass off :)
No he is not. Think about yourself...
Correcting AOE is useless. WHAT does IT help if you correct AOE?
It is funny how people really think that you have to correct your AOE. I have done guns For people For Many years now and i know that it is not.
And If some man on The internet tells you
To put some rubber to your cylibder head I really wouldn't do it.
@@louhis7158 Yea, it is micky mouse. No where in my AEGs do I need super glue. Even If "AOE" was better for your piston rack, pistons are like $12.
@@pauls.5815 I agree
@@louhis7158 And There the problem. If youre question Ing how does it help, then you dont know enough to actually say, What is useless or not :). Build SP170 SSG setup then, without corrected AOE, it Will eat pistons as snacks :). Then maybe you will think About Basic mechanics.
My aeg back then was shooting at 1.7j and I didn't correct the AOE. I just shimmed it to perfection and upgraded the compression parts so that air seal is perfect, in my experience it worked flawlessly without issues and haven't got a breakdown. I also checked wear and no visible wear after some time so yeah. I don't think it's very important to correct things that manufacturers didn't even bother correcting.
Ok buddy, youre clearly missing the point i was trying to make and i bet you havent even seen the video i was referring to. I never said aoe is mandatory, but id never say that its useless because manufacturers dont do it. I was just answering to bullshit negative airsoft said
@@nikonieminen1207 well I was just sharing my opinion man. Chill.
@@nikonieminen1207 I never said you or negative airsoft are wrong. Tbh I was planning on correcting AOE if I need to
@@JedociderShou sorry i just woke up lol. But yea, im just bored on hearing comments on this because yeah, modern parts can last a ton of torture but one has to know what are the good parts and wjat are not. But the most stupid argument i heard on this topic is "manufacturers did it this way, has to be correct" and hearing anyone refer to that makes my blood boil 😅
Because mosfets are perfect example. No manufacturer used them, some individuals started to make, manufacturers realized those guys were into something and you know where we are with this today 😁
@@nikonieminen1207 well maybe I'm wrong about that manufacturer thingy but yeah I do understand TM just don't need to do it coz of their power regulations. Sorry about that. But yeah things are more better now. Still gonna correct AOE on 2j builds (DMR) tho 🤣
I love when you say the manufacturer’s don’t do it because they have always done it that whay and don’t want to improve it. Lol come on dude how was your bullshit alert 🚨 not going off. Yeah ok m8 so your saying that these manufacturers have no interest in having a gun that’s more reliable than their competition.
Have you ever heard of an involute gear? With AOE correction, you are changing from a progressive roll on to the first tooth to what you probably believe is 100% contact. That's just going to add more stress to the part. Have you considered your comments might be misleading? Plus, a clean work space will go a long way.
The direction of the force in the different positions of the contact. When the piston has been aoe corrected, the force is going more backwards than upwards, thus putting less stress to the "bridge" under the pick up tooth. If you have any link to prove me wrong, please post them. Not saying i know everything but this is simple physics.
And yes, it was messy as i had been cleanong other room and piling other shot to the desk and didnt bother to clean it just for the video...
@@nikonieminen1207 No, not SIMPLE physics. This makes me question your understanding. It's gear tooth shape. Don't ask me to prove anything. Again, involute gear, google it yourself.
@@Shep211283 solid theory that applies in other parts of this system but not in pickup teeth. Balance of momentum and adjusting is would be a proper one here.
And isn't it basis of civilized dialogue to offer the proof for argument? :)
@@pmakiku The problem and my opinion is that there are comments being made with no understanding of the engineering.
When I mention engineering I am met with answers like, simple physics or it doesn't matter in that part of the gearbox.
I bet you the Tokyo Marui engineer that designed the Gear and the Piston knew exactly what they were doing and never factored in a sorbopad because it isn't needed and has no added value.
Happy to have a civilised conversation with anyone willing to take 10 minutes to understand the science and that the people who design the gearboxes know more about the parts than us.
@@Shep211283 Sorry for the late reply did not get the notifications about this thread :)
As a matter of fact, I have talked with people who were involved in V1 and V2 designing back in the day and they did indeed understand the angle of engagement.
The reason, why it was like that, was/is that Tokyo Marui is restricted in certain power levels and the solution right now is good enough for 0.6-0.9J that they are making and are restricted to in Japan. And this is more of a streamlining the production etc.
The original system is not designed for the power levels that we are now using especially in western countries.
Hey there, Could you give us the link to the video you are refencing for Negative?
@@mattgordon4558 lets see if i can find it
@@mattgordon4558 found it
th-cam.com/video/x47zGj4680s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=banECyXJ-fgj6yhg
In my experience it depends on the gears and piston. Some with the rack a bit forward runs amazing others need to be pushed back.
Yeah indeed, its all about the combination. Not sure if youve seen the video im referring to but there Negative Airsoft said its totally pointless in every case to even bother looking how the aoe is. He just tells to slap the piston in and call it a day
It’s only ever cracked my pistons every time I’ve done it. I don’t think the two Ares, Classic Army and SHS pistons were worth breaking
Marcus Aurelius that’s all you dude. If you actually corrected the angle of engagement, you wouldn’t be stripping pistons. You probably did something wrong and are blaming it on aoe. All aoe correcting has one goal: to find the optimal angle for the sector teeth to pick up on the piston rack teeth. Since the gear teeth are beveled/slanted, there is an optimal angle for them to contact each other. By spacing the piston to the correct distance through the use of shims, you can achieve this optimal angle between the piston and the sector. Typically, this means the sector gear pickup tooth is slightly less than 90 degrees from the horizontal.
As Shep has stated. I have no qualifications or education but I do understand that the gear needs to progressively grap the piston. If you grease it properly there should be minimal to no grinding on that first tooth. If you dont progressively grap that tooth then you are just impacting it with 100% force. When you guys show angle of engagement you always move the gear with finger which is so slow compared to what actually happens inside the gearbox.
When the aoe is too front, it'll hit with exactly the same force but to a way smaller area, thus making higher pressure/stress. This combined with force going upwards in an angle, instead of backwards, it'll break the piston way faster, especially with plastic teeth.
If AOE is such a big problem, why did TM not do it in the first place with their initial gearbox design? How come a stock TM doesn't have a sorbo pad, but still works better and lasts longer than one with. And i'm pretty sure that they are much more experienced people than dudes in their garages.
Because japanese law limits the power of the gun up to 1j. This same law also says that gun cant be upgraded over 1j. This is why they have springs fixed to piston etc. Also, if one drops for example m120 spring into a regular marui gesrbox, the piston will break because its designed to do so because other wise itd shoot too hot in Japan
@@nikonieminen1207 Fixing aoe doesn’t make the piston stronger my guy it will still break. You logic doesn’t make any sense.
@@Zaevia i dont think i claimed that itd effect the strenght of the piston itself. But the thing it effects is direction of the force, caused by sector hitting the piston. The force itself will stay the same but the direction changes. When the aoe is on spot, the force is will be directed to the way the piston travels. When its off, its directed partially to pistons direction and partially up, towards the middle of piston. This change in force vector is what makes or breaks the piston
You will never know Airsoft guns like UK Luke, being jellos makes you look silly.. yes you are a good TEC.. like is a legend tc END
Uummm, ok i guess?
It’s true that he’ll never know airsoft guns like negative airsoft. That’s because he already knows fucking better. There’s a reason why negative airsoft and his methods are shit on by pretty much the whole tech community. I haven’t seen him do a single actual high performance build nor have i seen a single actual good reasoning for some of his methods that are actually based on physics. He has his place with fixing broken guns for people who don’t know of better performance and no, his fanboys have no clue about what an actually well tuned and high performing gun is
@@jturune9028 😴
Until the manufacturer gives a aoe specification you’ll never know if your fixing it or making it worse. What is the correct aoe your saying it’s 90 degrees but is this your opinion of where you think it should be or have the manufacturers advised it. I get what your saying but I’m not sure what your basing your conclusion on.
@Kevin Stringer sorry, didn't see the comment until now. But i i dont i ever said 90 degrees, and for a good reason. 90 isnt the best. The best aoe is when sector's and piston's pick up teeth have the largest contact area between other. This way the momentum from the spinning gear spreads out evenly.
Also as i tried to show on the video, the direction of the force, from the gear to the piston, differs by the position when the first is made. A bit too much aoe (which 90 degree is) is better than too little because it doesnt hit the pistons pick up tooths corner, in which cause some if the force would go upwards and possibly break the pick up support. Kinda hard to explain but i hope you get my point
You lost me at using Specna as "good" example...
Please elaborate further?
The Specna Arms AOE "fix" applies to the motor to pinion engagement, not sector gear to pinion rack engagement.
You've decided that "fixing the AOE" is the correct theory and you're looking for arguments supporting that, even misconstruing existing information to support what you believe.
Another point I'd like to make is that an involute gear tooth (like you'll find on all the gears inside a GB) is designed to roll into the tooth it's engaging with, not slide or grind as you're surmising. With proper lubrication the line of engagement inherent to an involute gear will cause no problem to the piston rack.
Now you are mixing the things. The angle of engagement is literally one when talking about the sectorgear to piston interaction. What you are talking about here is the meshing of motors pinion gear and bevel gear.
Please do check this th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html (turn the translation on) for the second statement of yours :)
@@pmakiku "What you are talking about here is the meshing of motors pinion gear and bevel gear."
And that's exactly what Specna Arms aims to fix with their Edge series. What Niko claims is that what SA is doing is "fixing" the AOE between sector gear and piston rack. They're not.
@@RobinGlijn Dont have audio at hand right now so I cannot confirm what Niko is saying but: In all the 12 edge series guns that I have personally built for customers and my own field rentals, they have had OK AoE. And this I is achieved with the longer cylinder head and thicker pad on the cylinder head.
Shimming is the topic of "The Specna Arms AOE "fix" applies to the motor to pinion engagement", not aoe
Well im fak. I recently bought Guarder Bore Up Kit w/ mushroom piston head.🤦♂️
Well, they arent the worst thing but not needed tbh
Not really misleading, just what he thinks.
Bro the entire video is upside down. Fix something that simple then worry about correcting someone else.
Also doing what your doing and adding a thick sorbo pad to the back of the cylinder head is altering the air volume/capacity ratio between the cylinder and the barrel.
Not even watchable
Thats why you use a faucet washer instead or put it between the piston head and piston. The ladder of the 2 is how you do it for high rof and irregular cylinder heads like bore ups and v7.
Dude you made a video to call out negative airsoft and basically made yourself look worse and negative airsoft look that much more genius! Let’s face it you wish you were negative airsoft and had half his knowledge . Somebody isn’t in the industry for decades cause they don’t know what the fuck there talking about I’m pretty sure the man has a wealth of knowledge and maybe instead of barking you should listen might teach you something . This thread gave me such a good laugh thank you I will continue to watch negative airsoft and will probably never see another one of your videos !
Im sorry but i rather believe in physics than listen to some funky swearing british man. But as you wish, he may be good at argumenting cause he really thinks he's right; no mattet what the reality is.
DSG -> A must AOE or you fucked.
DMR long barrel slow RoF -> No need to AOE to optimize air compression
Like mentioned in the video, its for the longevity of the piston, but necessity depends on the case :)
@@nikonieminen1207 Everybody will eventually be grown up. In this case, Luke ( < 0 Airsoft ) did grow up.
@@minhthinhhuynhle9103 cant comment on that cause i havent been following his work lately and he has me blocked on facebook lol
@@nikonieminen1207 UK boiz shoot around 1 Joule on SSG, as their fps limit are. They will never understand all the value of these techniques. Which because there's no reason to understand...
They never use a spring heavier than the M130 so... Arguing to them is useless.
@@minhthinhhuynhle9103 youre correct. Only reason i bother arguing is that anyone might see their content and not realize the things you said and then be wondering why parts keep on breaking
Yes, check your sources, a tech guy says AOE correction is necessary so he can charge you for it.
Yeah sure, this is all there is to it. Good luck for finding out techs conspiracy
Dude! i heard AOE correction causes autism and corona!
@@nikonieminen1207 I bough my first AEG 7 years ago, so I don't have too much experience, but I had two piston failures. One was on the front side so that is not interesting here the other one was when the first tooth cleanly broke off, no grinding marks or anything. Are you saying AOE correction would've prevented that? Since I've repaired that problem it's the same piston - although a better quality one, no AOE correction. I've never done it. I bough a specna in 2016, it's gearbox is still in factory state (I should really check it's shimming, it's not the most silent). I mean it's not like I play every weekend and I have more airsoft guns than I mentioned here but I don't see the need for doing the AOE correction.
@@sogerc1 well, it is possible that aoe could have preventef the failure or atleast given it more time. One can never say for sure. If you feel like you dont need sorbo, sure. The point of the video wasnt that i care if you use or not, this was a direct call out for negative for stating that aoe correction would be useless almost all the time
So were did you get your mechanical engineering degree?
I dont have a degree but i've studied physics in high school + searched some stuff on my own
@@nikonieminen1207 unfortunately mate that makes you unqualified to state your observations as fact. The AOE thing is utter bullshit unless your doing something like short stroking a very high speed build.
@@chrisw3212 There are multiple people with mechanical engineering degrees supporting Nikos "observations" :) You are more than welcome to join us in r/airsoft discord to have a civilized discussion about the topic and we can show you the proper proof. YT Comment section is not ideal for this stuff.
@@pmakiku sure I will pop on when I get the chance.
@@chrisw3212 I made a "short" video where I explained theory behind AOE correction. Turn subtiles on th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html
Ps. I have that degree and this video is a simple version. I did not count all factors in example pictures cause it was easier to do without them.
Y'all really hate eachother huh? Your both techs that get work sent to them so why you tryna disprove eachother? Just get the work sorted and leave the small bits out of it
Because i hate people who on purpouse misslead others
@@nikonieminen1207 I get that man but if you watch his vids you'll see that he openly says that he chats shit for people that hate him
@@lordadmiralravenclaw1766 i do know that. But his aoe video was so utter bullshit that i couldnt let it slip through my fingers
You also realize he says CLEARLY guns shooting semi auto shouldn't need AOE guns shooting strictly full auto and not swapping between the 2 require AOE because high speed builds on LMG'S and full auto rifles used for suppressive fire and full auto will break if AOE isn't fine right but guns shooting semi automatic do not require it he even says it in his video and when he works on an LMG he basically says full auto guns require it if you use it just on full auto
lol what a joke
ratioed
Shall I trust you, the one that cannot spell the subtitles correctly, cannot keep his work space tidy and who seems to be unable to use a file like a normal human being
Or, shall I trust Negative Airsoft and all of the major airsoft manufacturers of the world? Hhmmmmm 🤔
Well, at this point i dont give a shit anymore. The video was shot and edited fastly, simply because negative as turned comments off ans thus no one was able to comment and i wanted to say what's wrong. Didnt bother to put too much effort because i was kinda pissed at the time. + I'm on a teching break due to few reasons in personal life so i hadnt been teching before the video, thus the place being a mess and parts being something i found from the scrap box, just for demonstration.
This video wasnt solely my own project, i planned it in advance with few guys who have been in the business since 90s and know guys who desingned the first gearboxes. + I also had a di running airsoft store who was also helping. So uh, it's just not me, i took care of the video because i had setup ready.
Keep in mind manufacturers are buyers who order stuff, most the products come from same place, from same oems. They arent inventors or desingers, they just order stuff. This tech has proceeded quite a lot from the marui desing but 90% of the manufacturers still straight up clone it. So your call, you may trust physics or then you can trust cloners and a loud swearing guy who's been stuck on his ways for way too long and isnt willing to learn how to do things better
Here's even more in-depth video with equations and better visual prepresantion.
th-cam.com/video/981GuEAWCys/w-d-xo.html
@@nikonieminen1207 You really wasted your day being pissed because NA turned his comments off.
Judging by your workspace, parts and the fact the gearbox only has a gear in a piston in it, I have to say you dont seem very reliable
Showing of things related to aoe needs nothing but sector and piston. Other parts are useless at that point and i didn't bother to use. And so you really think i tech with desk looking like that? I didnt take any tasks during december and cleaned up my all my boxes during that time, threw out bad parts that were just laying around for no reason. You can either listen to what i say and show or either you can or can get tangled up on matterless things and not listen, your call
@@nikonieminen1207 it's not matter less you didnt show anything without having the gearbox put together. You're just talking and not showing any results
@@Jurnskii if i showed it gb closed you'd see nothing. What would have you wanted to see then? I went through the why to correct the aoe and what'll happen with good and bad aoe. And i think i showed that other piston showed that fake shs piston being ran without aoe. I threw it and run for few hundred (like around ~750) rounds to show what starts to happen, didnt run it until failure because it wouldnt have served a point at that time. Yeah, it was fake but it was enough to get the results i needed to be show on how it starts to wear the piston off, especially the ones with plastic teeth
C'mon man!