The Evolution of Cycling Groupsets: How Shimano's Auto Shift Drivetrain Works
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- Christina Chapetta, with support from Shimano, explores the topic of automatic drivetrains and asks whether mountain bikers are finally ready for the fully automatic drivetrain.
For more info read Mike Kazimer's first look below:
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I might be old school, or just cheap, but the Shimano CUES clutch drivetrains are the most interesting line up to me right now. They just seem simple, robust, affordable, and highly compatible. Not enough people are talking about it tbh
Must say that they can learn a thing or two from SRAM when it comes to launching new products
Because it's not supposed to and doesn't need to be a hyped up thing. It fully replaces Altus, Acera, Alivio and Deore 10 and 11 speed. Most people will not get excited for this stuff and the few that would actively go out looking for an, and let me be honest with myself, odd ball setup like a clutched 36/22t x 11-45t would be these days will already have heard from it.
Bike packers might also be interested in it, since the higher grade CUES upgrade the current touring versions of Deore and Deore XT. Well at least the ones that aren't able or willing to spend Rohloff + belt drive levels of money on their bikes. But those who care enough right now in that space will probably also have already heard of it the week it got first announced.
And Shimano doesn't really need to advertise their products in the budget and entry level price ranges. Their budget stuff just simply works and does so more reliably and at lower price points then options from the potential competition. So there is no real competition for them here. At least not yet, looking at LTwoo, etc.
@@gedrot2486 1x10 is not fringe at all, it's actually more mainstream than the 12 speed stuff. Most of mountain bikers I know have a standard HG hub, and upgrading to 12 speed is a hassle, and 11 speed gets confusing with all the different standards, but 10 speed just WORKS.
That is because CUES justify itself. All highend products need as much ad as development to convince people to buy and use. Marketing in this tier tech is crucial! Why would you use highend tech? Because you are educated to.
I like the something for everyone approach to MTB drivetrains. This is one more option that won’t be for everyone but it will make a lot of people happy. Also, I just want to say that Christina, you have become an amazingly good journalist. I hope Pinkbike will keep you for many years to come.
I thought part of the idea was you could use it as auto ,semi auto or full manual. So it sorta is for everyone! I do say sorta because of the price point and simpler systems have less that can go wrong. my thing would be does it chose the right gear another words how good is the mapping, but that's why it's good to always have the full manual option available so you can have the best of both worlds
In New Zealand, shifting is when you move into a new flat or house. If you could just hit a button and it was done for you, that would leave more time for bbq and beer.
damn ads are getting smarter
Who wrote this script? Shimano?
Nice and all, but I think the average mountainbiker would still prefer the good old mechanical drivetrain. Cool video tho!🤟
Whatever is cheap and works is what I want. Could be electronic or not, don’t care.
Try it ...
You will be amazed
I bought it month ago for my Spectral:ON 23 (EP801)....and I love it!!! It's a game changer...on the Downhill correct gear for a extra kick if you need 💪🍻🥳
What’s next, a button that makes the bike whip like Bernard Kerr was riding it?
For most PB followers mtb is a technical challenge, meaning an automatic drivetrain would take away part of the beauty of riding, timing and modulating the perfect shift which can be highly rewarding.
The big question is not if an automatic drivetrain is technically possible or is faster, it is whether who will actually want it. My guess would be mostly ebikers new to the sport.
"For most PB followers"
Not me then. I watch it simply to keep up with new technologies. And I certainly don't get endorphin kicks when I shift gears. I do it, because I have to.
I agree, and I think it further lowers the skill level of newbie level ebikers because you don't even need to learn shifting techniques.
The comparison that I think most people understand is a pull-up machine. The eventual goal is to do a pull-up without any assistance from the machine.
Thanks for reminding me to go ride my single speed.
Pinion MGU just laughing at this Shimano 😂
You ever read a review on pinion? No one keeps them, sluggish, power sapping, hard to shift and won't let you shift without skill, oh did I mention the $3000 price tag?
@@janeblogs324 You are referring to the analog version. Go read up on the Pinion MGU with electronic shifting and integrated e-mtb motor and then come back and retract your previous statement.
@@janeblogs324 Man, just watch some reviews on new Pinion MGUs bikes. Shifting is silky smooth, drive system is non-wearable and silent when bike hits an impact. The ability to shift gears automatically and without cranks and wheel rotating is amazing! And there are way more advantages. Here starts the future of eMTB. Shimano with it autoDi2 just suck)
@@daved2023 how much does it cost and can you provide a link to buy the gearbox right now? I'll bet you $1000 you can't answer either because its not a viable option and won't be till someone else releases a consumer option
I suspect this is pretty awesome, but it's been overshadowed by the Pinion MGU, which is just a better solution to the problem.
Can't believe Shimano didn't want Henry to do this video😂😂😂
"i hate it" - Henry
No thanks I like shifting and pedaling
I just don't see the point. Shifting is not a very difficult thing to do. It happens very fast too. It's not like a car where you have a clutch to press first. I don't see automatic shifting to offer any noticeable performance advantage. In fact it is a disadvantage because the system can't preselect your gear based on what you see ahead of you. It can only react.
I feel similarly about electric groupsets. I see it's advantages, especially in racing environments. I still would prefer a mechanical system, especially in mountain biking.
Obviously you don't own an emtb and haven't broken 6 chains in a year.
If I deleted your memory and instincts and told you to gear change while pedaling your bike up hill you would break teeth off your cassette. This new system is for racing or people that are sick of the current derailleur limits
Yep, small advantage with huge disadvantages. Even a child can learn to properly shift but when there's inevitably a problem it's going to be a big old bill and likely not something you can fix at home. It's like creating a robot to wipe your ass, sure some people may need it but most are OK as is lmao.
@@janeblogs324 If you break 6 chains a year, there's something to be said of your technique; it's most likely very bad. Any bicycle rider with some skill level would know that shifting to a larger gear under load is hard on the drivetrain, ebike or non-ebike. It's common sense. You're in the wrong gear range when starting the climb...you don't get into the right gear range during the climb...that's one of the techniques you would've developed if you first started riding on a non-ebike.
Racers will always prefer to manually select their gears. Yes, the gear shifting has gotten quicker, but all professional racers (F1, MotoGP, etc.) still manually select gears.
Lastly, you, the rider, is the derailleur limitation. I think the bicycle industry is going into the direction where the companies are trying to provide solutions to problems that don't exist.
@@TigerClaw03 then shimano or SRAM axis isn't for you. These new electronic shifting gears are designed for full power thoughtless shifting.
You sound like one of those rim brake fanatics that don't want change and want to ride slower while bashing all new technology.
@@janeblogs324 I think you highlighted the issue; "thoughtless shifting". Contrary to your statement, knowing when to shift or what gear range you need to be in is a skill.
In my opinion, a lot of skills (body weight distribution, shifting, taking better lines, etc) are developed far better when a newbie starts out on an non-ebike than an ebike.
Look, I'm all up for new technologies for cycling, but I think, as I previously posted, companies are developing solutions for problems that don't exist. Bikes are already expensive at the enthusiast level, but do we really want to go into the direction of new bikes being $15k+? On top of the non-serviceability of the ebike motors to the at-home mechanic?
FYI - I have a Stumpjumper with an AXS drivetrain and a YT Decoy.
Absolute masterpiece of a video. I loved the pacing, the editing was amazing and the new way of presenting was really nice. Almost felt like an episode of grand tour haha.
So, shifting without pedaling works by having the motor crank for you, so the shifter would need to communicate with the motor then.. is that standardized? & I guess this whole system only works on an eBike then.
The tech is slick, but I'm im not a fan. I drive a manual, so I guess it makes sense I want my bike to be manual too.
And probably only the shimano motor
At some point, the sport can be taken away from a sport we all love. "Save the Manuals" is a thing for a reason - for people that enjoy DRIVING the car (like myself). We enjoy RIDING the bike, and in an age of 11/12 speed cassettes (vs the old 3x7/8/9), it's just not that difficult or complex, but still really FUN. More things to break and have to maintain means more time off the trail, and more money.
If you want to have all that done for you, just get an adventure/trail motorcycle. Hell, they're about the same price anymore. My Pivot Trail 429 was 6k...... I can get a new Yamaha TTR230 or Honda CRF250F for around 5k... new.
Key words “more money” that’s what they only care about ,which sucks.
If it reduces the price a standard XT drivetrain, I’m all for it
its already about 400 for the xt groupset with brakes 😀
I honestly don't see the point, one wack on that derailleur I've not noticed and it's going to auto shift itself into my spokes 😂
Interesting tech and nice video. This new eBike tech looks like it would be best suited for an internal gearbox and motor application vs. this traditional rear derailleur and motor combination.
Exactly! Like pinions new mgu
So electronic shifting is all fine and good. I've got AXS on one of my bikes and it's expensive but I appreciate the appeal. But the automatic stuff? I'm just not seeing it. Like if I'm on a technical climb then I absolutely don't want the gear ratio changing unexpectedly, and if I'm on a non-technical climb then why even care. About the only feature that seems appealing is the pre-selection while coasting downhill but that feature seems to require an ebike, and if I'm riding an ebike I'm gonna be caring a lot less about being in the wrong gear for a sudden uphill punch.
Great points - totally agree on all.
i didn't know this would actually work, very surprised. great video. personally i'd probably put my money on a belt drive / motor combo ("gearbox").
Wow, I never knew shifting gears was such a horrible hardship
Guessing you’re driving a manual car/truck then? 😉
Or just put a gearbox on the bike like a certain company has in the works. 👍
Personally, I’ve never thought there were any issues with manual shifting. It’s second nature, and I can fully control the gear in anticipation of the trail ahead, which my drive trail can’t ever do. This drivetrain solves a problem that doesn’t exist.
This would be really interesting for cross country. You know you can sustain X value wattage, so you could set your gearing to be notice when you are down on power, and automatically down shift. This along with you knowing an optimal cadence could really make a difference!
I use my car/van to drive to and from places. I use my MTB to have fun and want to experience riding differently than driving. Same with my surfboard, I don't want a motor boat around, I want to surf. Comparing a car and mtb is pointless. Maybe compare a car to a commuter bike. I love my commuter ebike that gets me around town with little effort.
I really dig the “mtb/surfing” analogy…. I feel you on this one!!!
No, thank you! We are taking mountain bikes and turning them into freaking wireless/bluetooth robots. We are taking away from the experience of the rider and at the same time increasing the price immensely. Personally I do not care about wireless electronic shifting one bit. Sure its cool but that's about it. Everyday Joe will not have an wireless shifter.
Next step, fully autonomous bike. You can sit on your couch and the bike just rides itself and tells you about it afterwards. The ultimate upgrade!
BEAUTIFUL VIDEO!!! Cheers Christina
this is surprisingly cool and if it works as designed will be a fascinating development in the industry.....one handed gear changes would change the game for partially disabled riders too!
At what point does it stop being a MTB?
Big suspension, electric motors, automatic transmission or internal transmission, and ABS? Sounds more like an EV motorcycle to me.
Keep it simple and affordable. It's why we all loved bikes growing up as kids. It was our first taste of freedom and transportation
@@TypicalGuy84 As much as i ride an acoustic bike, you are literally saying the exact same thing that people said about cars back in the day. "electric, boo!"
@bendoesmtb EV cars do the same thing as ICE cars. They take you point A to point B.
By adding motors, automatic or manual transmissions, ABS and other electronics to a pedal bike you are changing it to a completely different form of transportation. I would say a cheaper motorcycle but we are getting close in price.
Sure it's a fun and exciting new tech but let's not pretend they're the same thing.
It's like saying a hang glider and airplane are the same
@@TypicalGuy84 it may be like that in your country, but here, ebike are speed restricted to 15.5 mph and therefore aren't going to replace vehicles any time soon
I understand your point, but at the same time, why should we care about the tech? In the same way you can buy motorcycles without abs, you can buy bikes without them!
I also think a lot of these ideas are probably smart. Derailleurs are stupid, let's be honest. Exposed to the elements, dangling off the bike, and expensive. If you have an ebike already, the fundamentally simpler design is a gearbox within the motor unit, as seen in eurobike. And then a belt rather than chain to reduce wear. I'm not saying all bikes should have gearboxes, but ebikes it's a no brainer. Abs, I can see useful on commuter bikes, as yes MTB having brake control is great, but for a commuter there is no need to learn not to lock rear wheels
It's cool and all but it seems to me most of the problems it solves have already been solved by IGHs, namely shifting without spinning the cranks and even auto shifting has been around for a while in IGH land. For the money (bc I'm sure this is pricey) I'd get a really good IGH that would be lower maintenance and less risk of damage in a crash.
Nice work on the video Christina, enjoyed it!!!!❤
I still only drive manual
I am also heterosexual
Anyone else getting Lety vibes here?
Pinkbike does the best ads that look like a video ❤
Semi auto is intriguing. Auto shifting in general seems great for when the fatigue hits
I think this could work really well with commuter ebikes where someone just wants to jump on and get wherever they want to go.
I would prefer a drivetrain similar to what we have now, but without the derailer hanging down and getting bashed.
Shimano has 8/11speed internal planetary transmission with both manual/Di2
Might be a great experience for skilled riders, but what about new (and necessarily very wealthy) generations, which might never ride real mechanical drivetrain? Mastering your shifting is considerable skill and learning and finally mastering it brings joy. Will setting up your app give you same joy? I might be too old school, yet I understand development will never stop and naturally, it all comes on top of e-bikes.
Soon we will print T-shirts with "save the manual" but we will not refer to Porsche anymore :D
Great video Christina !
What´s next? An automatic balance device, an e mtb where you don´t have to pedal or steer... more time to enjoy the scenery... shifting really isn´t that hard.
I'm done. **Orders singlespeed conversion kit**
Just seems unnecessary to me for MTB.
1st Gen Sram AXS is as far I go because I prefer having less cables
Everything after that is a no thanks
you vill buy the gimmicks and like them 😀
Tried this on a demo bike this weekend. It was meh, but I didn't have access to modifying the Auto settings
OMG, incorporating both my passion in one video🤯😁🤘
Full manual everywhere is my way, but got to admit this one from Shimano for ebike lovers is very interesting. Thx for video👍
Superb presentation!
No one asked for this....
you commented on it. You just added a statistic for them to make another one.
@@TastyGnocchi Not really. TH-cam gives you statistics on the "drops", meaning the people that started to watch the video and quit.
I'll be on that one... listened for 1min, than skipped, skipped... close the video.
@@PedroFTeixeira you're still contributing to the activity on the video, making it appear on more people's feeds since it is trendy and people react to it
Shifting without pedaling would genuinely be nice... Fully automatic seems unlikely to be anything other than jarring, unless you're just doing a long, steady climb up a fire road. Kinda mixed feelings on this one
So, this only works on e-bikes, right?
I just got the Di2, auto shift isn’t available in 12 spd only free shift, it’s not ideal all the time. Shimano also says it you use manual shift it will eventually learn which I think is a pretty important part of information. Shimano needs to figure out there website, it’s quite the journey trying to find all the details on this system. The full Linkglide Di2 does shift really well under load(I’m 240) Another feature is the manual shifting can be set to shift 2 or 3 at time or unlimited shifting when holding the shift paddle. It does use up the battery more quickly with all the shifting options on because it’s turning the motor and now powering the derailleur. I really wish Shimano had a range extender option or even just smaller battery to make up the extra usage
Driving to work isn’t a sport.
Taking away these skills will make you a worse rider in the long run.
Imagine auto shift on moto. Shifting is such a skill could be the difference between winning and losing. Being in the right gear max drive and power, clearing jumps. Huge skill.
Looks like they are catering to the influx of beginner mountain bikers with the e bike boom. Probably lots of beginners lugging the motors in the wrong gears in turbo burning out motors.
get rid of derailleurs and move to an internal gear system with a belt on single cassette and rear cog
nice ad-how much did shimano pay for this 😭
For ebikes, just make a cheap robust drivetrain that isn't an overly heavy boat anchor like linkglide. Doesn't need to have 12 cogs, it just needs to have a wide range.
Derailleur Hanger? What is this? 2022?
way too much electronics
The equivalent of a off road jeep with an auto tranny....... Lol
Overcomplicated
top notch production!
It's hard to listen to a whole lot of sound with very little real information. Waaaay too heavy on the marketing and tbh, quite annoying to find an all out commercial on your channel
this is probably another stepping stone to greatness but the idea to shift without pedaling is amazing for tech or trials. I’m on board. Racing times will drop because of this but no more air pedaling
Nice Porsche. Ill keep simple and manual on my MTB.
Maybe the roadie weenies want this.
In Europe, 80% of the cars being sold are manuals. In the US, it's only 1%, and only 18% of US drivers claim to be able to drive manual. It's more of a competence (or better the lack of) as well as a certain degree of laziness to drive automatic.
And no, I don't want an automatically shifting bicycle. First, I am very well capable of doing it myself. Second, I want to maintain my bikes myself. Third, I don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a piece of equipment that can't be McGuyvered to keep it rolling. Fourth, bikes are (too) expensive enough already.
i like to tripple crankflip somethimes, but i need to do that in a specific really light gear for the speed, this is one of loads of times that you allready want to be in a different gear before the computer knows so. im not convinced that this will be the future.
This video sounds like Cristina is reading cue cards from a script handed down by someone in Corporate.
More important…Is 90s fashion back?
Glad you guys took some money from Shimano for this, but yeah, wrong crowd 😄
Seems like this system is best suited to ebikers who only pedal half the time and want to be in the right gear when they do have to actually contribute.
A reliable wireless gear box and reliable belt drive. Simple yet complex.
I'd like to see Shimano and SRAM do a take on Pinion with their own "original tweaked" trademarks so this next gen type of drivetrain technology can also have it's competition and for sure will drive the prices to more mass market level.
I'm sorry, but I don't need an app or derailleur to help me to decide when to shift, if you get distracted from the trail because of shifting then you are truly a beginner and probably wouldn't dream of paying the price of having this set up. It might be helpful with ebikes but honestly the review i saw he was grinding gears like crazy with this set up.
Simple question - is it a toy we enjoy mastering and playing with or simply an appliance? Automatic, push-button, point-and-shoot things are the latter and always will be IMHO whether they are cars, bicycles, cameras or washing machines.
The Porsche is not automatic. Should have used a Camry.
0:32 she talks about automatic drive trains, then the video shows a manual shift Porsche!
Is the electronic groupset/shifter the new standard for Tour De France road bikes?
Next Cruise technology on MTB...
there's the idea of having all the features of a motorcycle on an e-bike. Basically a pedal-able scooter, more for commutes than bombing single tracks. But hey, this is Pinkbike 🤷♂
Off topic, that 930 with BBS RS wheels looks and sounds soooo good
Not a 930. 930's are turbos.
Lets set the record straight:
1977 911S in Ice Green Metallic
3.0L engine from an 83 911SC
SC rear flared arches
Whatever man. That Porsche is sick
Like in many other comments, it think this makes more sense in a gearbox.
Shimano is clearly focused on the ebike market.
I Love Options. I'm not going to naysay it because there's something for everyone. But someone like my wife who just casually rides once in awhile could definitely benefit
Who cares about "electro-automatic-shifting"? What about Christina's siiick outfit straight from the 90's?! AWESOME :P
fine fine... now we got AXS, AXS Transmission, DI2, DI2 automatic and stuff... all great inventions which costs money and so on... but can we now finally price down the manual shifting systems like GX and XT Groupsets... pleassssse 😁
HXR Easyshift had the solution to shift without pedaling nailed a few years ago I guess.
Just throwing this out there that.... Even if you can innovate shit endlessly, it doesn't mean that it's going to improve your experience.
People are just constantly drooling and yanking it to all these new technologies, I agree that it's interesting etc buuuut again, many of them are just money sinks.
I don't like automatic cars (unless they're electric), and I'll never want an automatic bicycle. Shifting just adds something.
"Still" shifting is awesome, but as it's only possible on e-bikes, I think the better option for normal bikes is a belt drives & internal hubs, as they can do it as well. Or theoretically you could have an insignificant ≈1W motor that doesn't take up any space and can't add any power beyond rotating a chain with no torque on it
Maybe I'm just old (and not rich), but this just sounds way too complicated for mountain bikes. I could see it being more useful for road to increase efficiency, possibly cross country racing but with how gnarly the tracks are these days I doubt it would have much benefit.
My argument against parallels with yours. The thing I DO NOT LIKE about the advent of electronics on bikes is the high tech's terrible reputation for planned obsolescence.
The auto industry is embracing it with open arms. They've been shown a way to basically double or quadruple automobile sales. When will today's cars become "bricks" like your old Iphone? Five years? Eight?
My Toyota is 19 years old and still running like a champ. Looks great, too, thanks to regular maintenance, waxing and general upkeep.
But when "Firmware Not Supported" rears its ugly head, your electronic item is headed for the trash heap.
How many of my 20 or 30 year old bikes would still be functional today (with their original components, as mine are) if they had come with today's electronic stuff? E-bikes only puts this issue on steroids. Our first road tandem turned 30 this year and it looks like it's still under a year old. Rides great, too!
Don't like that we're being sold stuff that's destined for the trash heap in about eight years, no matter how well we maintain our bike.
Shimano is releasing products invented and created by engineers. Maybe they should listen to their marketing department. Nobody asked for this.
it's so weird how i could tell this was a sponsored video from literally the first word that was spoken.
not something i have missed, but not having the right gear in place after a few berms really ruins the day
Triptronic is more what we have in derailleurs
Guys, #PinkBike Have any of you tried a #Zerode ? The belt drive Mountain bikes?
im sure they know about it but shimano had more marketing budget
Cant we just have one thing that we have to do ourselves anymore? Geez.
For e-bikes semi-automatic is is the next step but the use of a derailleur will decline as gearboxes take over this genre of riding. Next is the chain, after all the Porsche is not chain driven lol.
Electronic
S in cycling is a marketing strategy to sell us more expensive crap that breaks and can’t be user repaired. Battery powered wireless shifting is the first step to hook the techno weenie. Lost or uncharged batteries for perpetual sales.
Now you sell shifting without pedaling. The gearbox drivetrains already do that.
The right gear for the terrain is user defined. It is also where practice , experimentation and experience engages the rider’s mind. Are you vapid and looking for an unthinking ride experience? Maybe a self powered two wheeled contraption on a rail is what you want.
Ride a rigid SS if you think you can handle not thinking about shifting and want to experience what mountain biking is, what it came from and why it ever became a thing. No hype, no BS tech for $$$$ marketed as the next best thing. Just you a simple maintenance and repairable machine and the trail.
My next emtb will be with a Pinion MGU and Revonte One motor
So, a Pinion MGU it is? Right? RIGHT?
Let's just stop riding mountain bikes and get into dirtbikes.
Ill wait for it to trickle down in 5 years.
This was an inevitable progression since E bikes have been gaining popularity.
This is great tech for older individuals that want to stay in the sport, people with certain disabilities, and individuals that want to ride but not worry about thinking and preplanning gears on a trail.
For most of us this will be a non issue, as this tech will be very expensive for the next 5 to 8 years minimum. Plus it ads to much needles bulk like an ebike. Since a battery and motor is required.
Also i dont see the chain and chain ring group set around too much longer.
The pinion and gates gear box and carbon belt drive, or direct shaft is the future. No derailuers to break or strike. Smooth gearing with gear box at center gravity. Plus less consumable parts to replace.
The fact that we are still using Chain, cassettes and derailers with all the past inovations in the last 30 years is a joke.
We will be full auto shift and adjustable abs brakes in a year or 2.