Using DC and DCC On The Same Layout (333)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- When modelers first start buying DCC equipped locos they often are reluctant to bite the bullet and convert their layout completely to DCC control. In this video I'll show you how you can safely use DC and DCC on your layout without any worries about shorting out the booster, powerpack, decoders, or other equipment. I'll also provide a warning about buying video cameras and also about avoiding lighting damage to you model railroad equipment.
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I have two small layouts one is my front room coffee table. Since it is 40 years old and I have some engines that are DC only and can not be converted to DCC. So it makes sense that the new layout would be both! On my new layout. The inside loop is isolated. But using this method and an extra DPDT switch, You can have a DC/DCC/Program track. It works extremely well, and having the ability to have a complete loop to program and flip a switch run the DCC engine is really easy! Not having to switch tracks to test a newly programmed engine makes the extra switch worth the extra work it takes worth the time. I'm am not going to try and explain how, but it can be done by using the same method as splitting the DCC and DC.
Two loop method = Great idea. I have HO equipment from my childhood (late 50’s & 60’s) that could run continuously on DC, with newer equipment on a DCC. Thinking about blocks of track w/tunnels separating various landscaping, bridges, stations, signaling, etc. in my loft. Your duck under video was helpful too. Thanks!
All power strips should have a surge suppressor built in from the manufacturer because of lightning. Lightning can strike anywhere at any time, and you never know how bad the damage could be. I'm glad you didn't lose power to your whole house and have other stuff damaged by the lightning because that could've been an expensive problem, especially if the water heater doesn't work properly. Stay safe, and I'll see what you put out next week.
I want to add one note. With a DPDT make sure it is rated higher than the highest amp on either system. That way you can operate and expand without peeking the switch. Usually a 10-15 amp center off switch can handle any size layout in N and HO scale.
Hi Larry, great as always. Glad you and family was not hurt by the lightning strike. I only use DC on my test track to test my locomotives before putting decoders in. My main layout is DCC only.
So sorry to hear about the trouble you’re having due to the lighting, and the cameras. Sometimes when it rains, it pours…literally. All the best!
Hey Larry, I got hit too and since then, I also have a whole house surge protector but I also have APC UPS's on ALL my equipment. I've been using them for many years and haven't lost any of my equipment. I may have lost some UPS and/or a battery but no equipment. I really like your channel and watch it all the time. Keep up the great work!
I have them too on my computers and my internet modem/router. I guess I now better get one for the layout.
Thanks for posting on a seemingly taboo topic... I started building a small shelf HO/HOn3 layout 10 years ago... I like sound and don't really care much about DCC control... I started with a (to me a very underrated product) MRC Tech 6... It's basically DCC but can only control the #3 address (walk-around 1-6)... my plan is based on a cab/block control layout (DPDT switches)... essentially the two loops with connector idea... crossing over would be relatively rare...
I added a potential dead-leg block in the cross-over for additional protection (switched normally to off)... one stretch will be an auto-reversing DC track (chugging with DC sound) and the rest is a switching/branch line... I figured there are no guarantees and operating procedures combined with the extended crossover is acceptable protection.
I am (we are) blessed! My wife and I decided, when I retired, to move from a 4 bedroom house with a full basement to a 2 bedroom condo or apartment and not having room for my O gauge trains I sold all, absolutely all my trains, layout and accessories both DC & DCC.
But after moving in, my wife realized the need for a railroad hobby to keep me busy and she bought me a N gauge DCC equipped starter kit to go on a 4’x8’ table and all I have now is DCC and lots of potential (electrical pun intended.) Sorry you got your stuff zapped, but I am glad to hear you, your family and the majority of your equipment survived. All in all the storms, here in SW Va, can be deadly but pale in comparison to the rest of the planet.
I have an ancient Gateway laptop I could let you borrow, but other than use as a weight I’m not sure it would help as it only has a 256 mb hard drive 😁I use it as a large flat deadweight for gluing down my track and as a conversation starter for more mature friends I’ve made in this complex we live in now.
Best wishes for an isolated future.
I too have an old Dell laptop and I fired it up the other day but found that a very frustrating experience as it is so SLOOOOOW. I’ll break down and spend $400 for a new Dell clunker and it will,do the job as I won’t be editing videos on that. Where are you in SW VA? I was born in Richlands.
@@TheDCCGuy Roanoke
Very good video, Larry. My layout is going to be VERY small, 4' x 6' ( I live in an apartment) and have a very simple track plan that will lend itself to splitting between DC and DCC. I can test run the locomotives I've repaired to fine tune them before adding the sound decoder. Your wrong about it being cheaper to buy locomotives with sound decoders installed. $250, minimum, is too steep for me on a fixed income (I swear this hobby is trying to price me out of it). I buy older Athearns, Stewarts, Atlas or Katos (when I can find them) that usually are not running well or not at all and repair them and add a Digitrax or XL Systems sound decoder. It usually costs about $100 or less. I know, it's not state of the art, but it's functional and the best I can do under the circumstances. Your videos helps me tremendously.
I have a DCC modular layout but I have two point to point tracks that are completely electrically isolated from the DCC double track main line and industrial sidings. One of the DC tracks is a Bachmann trolley that shuttles back and forth in the city of Holyoke. The second is a Proto 1000 New York City subway that will eventually shuttle from beneath the DCC Grand Central Terminal tracks (under construction) to somewhere in the Bronx. Since those DC tracks are designed specifically for those cars, they will never be home to the DCC Locomotives.
Very sorry to hear about the damage of equipment due to the storm, this has now led me to decide to fit arrestors on my 13A outlets that feed the railway. I use DPDT centre off switches, one side is wired DCC the other is wired DC on 2 of my sections (loops) runs, my points are operated by solenoid motors on these two loops. elsewhare they are Tortoise. This means that I can never have DCC and DC fed simultaneously, to the same track at the same time. DC only used now for running in new locos not yet fitted with DCC. Just got to the part of the video where you also use DPDT centre off. However mine work oposite to yours, when switched to one side, the other side is where it picks up the power from which is switched to the centre common connections.
good advice , thanks for sharing
Thank you for sharing.👍
Really enjoy the videos Larry! I have a 4x8 with a 2x6 L shape extension for a staging yard. And I actually do run DCC and DC on the same layout same track no insulators. It's just one or the other not at the same time. I just have a main bus ran with some feeders scattered around. Only Manuel thrown switches no accessories.I mostly use DCC but If I want to run DC locos I just remove all the DCC locos from layout and swap the positive and negative leads over to my DC power pack and boom DC power. I'm sure this isn't the best way to do it, probably best for very small layouts but it works well. Everything runs really smooth regardless of the power style. Best wishes !
Larry I use this method on my work bench so I can test DC and DCC engines and other devices. Sorry you had problems with the electrical storm hope things will work out
This is exactly how my layout is designed and seen in one of my videos, i also use a surge protector and light switch to protect my layout from lighting stikes
Another great Video Larry, I was thinking just how much poorer we'd all be without your wonderful instructive Videos, so sorry to hear of all your Problems, keep safe. I wholly agree with your recommendation to switch totally to DCC which enables you to operate your Railway as prototypically as possible, also buy Locos already fitted with their own Decoders, so much cheaper than retro fitted your own, I tend to stick with Athearn. Why is it that Sound fitted Diesels sound so much more realistic than Steam Locos?
I think that it is much more difficult to capture the bass frequencies that are a much more important part of the steam experience. However, I would sorely miss the sounds of my steam loco fleet.
Hi Larry ... sorry to hear about your lightening strike ... In UK its always raining but not as much lightening ... I was also interested in the DC/DCC on tracks but then I remembered I cant use DC as the frog juicers I have work from a DCC signal a design by a member of MERG ...
hello larry it's is randy and i like yours video is cool thanks larry friends randy
Its best that both tracks can use full DCC or full Analog DC instead of two tracks with both. Use the switch to run either all dcc or all dc to avoid power upsets. Also, installing Atlas Selectors to isolate track sections allows you to cut off a locomotive in one mode while allowing the other mode without the power upsets.
Thank you !
That is exactly what I used on the switching layout i had and will use on the on30 mini layout am building now.
My DCC locos run just fine on DC but you cannot MU DC and DCC locos since they will run at different speeds with a given
DC voltage.
Good to know
That taught me a lot I had mine hooked up correctly and couldn't get my digital to work I think they sent me a bad unit because now I'm going to hook up a power cab to it for dcc and now can't get the DC to work but will rewire it back the way I had it and see if dcc works and the DC works
I unplug all electronics from the outlets when not in use. It's a hassle but cheaper than having to get stuff repaired or replaced. If it's storming or getting ready to I don't plug anything in.
I learned the hard way that you can not pass DC power through NCE switch-kats. I will be changing my turnout decoders to Digitrax DS74 using Loconet. I like to be able to run both DC and DCC at the flick of a switch.
This is kind of nit-pickey but at 6:52 i don't think you are turning on the DC, rather the DCC. Typically the toggle activates the center and end contacts away from the direction the toggle is pointed.
Hi Larry. Like many modellers, I started buying DC locos before the penny dropped and I started buying DCC-ready/decoder-installed locos, so I have been looking for a solution to this “problem”. I model in N scale, so conversion from DC to DCC is not always easy. Something to bear in mind using the DPDT, centre-off switch is the tendency to leave locos on the layout - in sidings and loco sheds, etc. I think the answer to this is to borrow an idea from your second solution, an inner loop and an outer loop with an interchange track, possibly using nylon track joiners to isolate certain parts of the track; I would appreciate your (and others’) views.
Good point about leaving locos scattered around the layout. I really don’t like the idea of mixing DC and DCC unless it is done using the loop in a loop method. There are just too many cases where folks will forget and zap!!!!
Larry, At about 7:00+ in the video about DCC & DC together.....with a DPDT Switch.....is the power not coming in from the posts opposite of the toggle lever position?
ie: if switch lever is pointed left....the contacts at the bottom of the lever slide to the right?
I'm not sure.
Great Videos. Jeffrey
See the comment before yours.
Hello Larry, I have newly found your channel and I really enyoy your videos. There is one thing I have not found in your videos thoug, and that is what brands of trains work together? What is a good starter set, value for money? Does the german brand "Märklin" work with other brands? Where does Roco, Lima, Trix come in the mix? These are brands that I have seen in our stores here in Sweden.
As long as they are the same gauge they should run together. It really is down to the electronics. Some are DC some AC. Also there are different command control, decoders so make sure to use what is most popular in your country. DCC is sort of a world wide standard now but so e of the European formats are still,popular there so you need to educate yourself on them.
As a suggestion, I use a UPS(Uninterrupted Power Source with built-in surge protector) for my computers. If the power goes out, I have 15 minutes to close down my PC's. The same should work on a DCC layout. Best wishes on your camera situation. 🙂
My UPS with the surge protector in it.....bit the dust due to a lightning strike....lol
@@jeffreywalker405 - But did it stop the surge to your equipment?
I do this on my layout! 💯🫵👍✌️
Please confirm the way the switch is set for DC or DCC.
With the DPDT switch option - will you be covering the steps are needed to use DC points with DCC ? (Hornby provide clips to convert their points).
The points per se should not be an issue only powering the frogs. And with devices like Frog Juicers made just for DCC cannot be installed if youmwish to go back and forth between DC and DCC.
Thanks@@TheDCCGuy
having both dc and dcc, i don't like dc anymore but MRC has come out with tech 7 that will run dc and dcc from the same power pack. Their old advanced dcc would run 1 dc loco on th e dcc layout. their later models will not run dc so they came out with dcc and dc from the same power pack. Might want to check them out.
I see DCC-.EX has added track manager that allows DC and DCC on the same layout. Do you see yourself covering DCC-EX at any time?
I still need to find time to study their website and get up to speed on it first.
Larry I been thinking a lot about setting up a simple train table using Trix C track to run on DC and DCC just like you showed the track has insulated plastic frogs so don't see any problem with that; however the question I have can I use the marklin switch machines if I wire them on a separate isolated bus and not wire them to the track; would that be safe?
The answer to your switchmachines is yes, its OK to run them on a seperate buss. It's the prefered method. As for insulated frogs, these do not necessilary stop a short between DCC and DC parts of a layout. Isolate both tracks with insulated joiners and have a dead section longer than the longest train you run between the DC and DCC, otherwise a short can happen. Its a bad idea to mix DCC and DC on a layout that you can go from one to the other. All it does id complicate your wiring and layout control and also can result in damaged power supplies, controllers and decoders.
Could you use a mobile phone, or tablet as a camera, of you don't have a backup camcorder?
It should be compulsory that all powersboards come with some kind of protection, but also switches that turn each socket on or off.
I can't understand why your country doesn't have on/off switch for power points.
Yes, but with much less control and it would be cheaper to buy another camera than upgrade my old iPhone.
If I use a loop within a loop method, do I need to have two separate buses, one under each loop?
No, you can just run feeders from a single bus to both loops.
I have a control panel for two powerpacks as designed by Lynn Westcott in his wiring book, with dpdtco switches for each block and master switches to change packs or current direction. I’ve only really used one MRC pack and so I intend to use the second circuit for DCC. Is this feasible? The track feeders already go directly to the control panel via the terminal strips. I won’t use both systems at once, even though it will mean finding an alternative AC source for the turnouts. Will the DCC power the trains in this manner, rather than rewiring with a buss etc?
You could do that but it is an accident waiting to happen since it depends on you and everyone else remembering to set the power switches in the proper sequence. Sort of like the who’s running my train scenario only with DC and DCC competing.
@@TheDCCGuy yes I can see the potential for trouble but the dc pack would be turned off whenever dcc is used, and all blocks set just for the routing wanted. I’m just trying to avoid rewiring the whole layout.
OK, that is common method when converting a DC layout to DCC. Just hook up the DCC bus to one cab and leave the other as DC. The only issue is that cab control wiring is often inadequate for DCC. Your power pack likely maxs out at about 1 amp whereas many DCC boosters are 5 amps.
@@TheDCCGuy thanks for the advice. I’ll see what happens and if there’s losses Or it’s inadequate for the amperage I may end up having to rewire anyway. For the time being it’s one way to continue running my older locos that aren’t converted to DCC. I have one ‘beloved’ Atlas FP7 that growls so much it doesn’t need a sound decoder lol.
Hi Larry, I’m struggling to understand why it’s not possible to run my DC trains in conjunction with my turnouts ( Kato N gauge) with switching capability using DCC digital?! After all, it’s my understanding that the turnouts powered, when selected, only activate magnets, therefore not connected directly to the track, another words the power for the turnouts is independent to the DC track feeder and connections!
In simplistic terms, run DC trains but have digitised operate Kato turnouts.
I hope this all makes sense to you Larry, I look forward to your answer. Thank you in advance… Brian H (UK)
Brian, I am not exactly sure I understand exactly what is and is not working? First, can you run DC trains on the layout other than the turnouts using DCC? What DCC system are you using? Second how many are you try9n* to run at the same time? Tell me exactly what you are tryin* to do that is not workong
quick question can you add led lights to this so you know what on or not
I am not sure of a way to do that without some pretty sophisticated circuitry to discriminate between DC and DCC, but I’ll give it some thought.
The DCC Concepts Alpha Meter has an indicator that shows DC, DCC or AC.
Yes and uses some sophisticated and expensive circuitry to do that.
On a Lenz Command Station is Engine Zero is DC, the others are DCC
Yes, some DC systems offer this capability, NCE does not but Digitrax does. However it is not good to operste a loco using address “0” for more than a few minutes as it can overheat the motor, so is best used just for testing.
I got into a fight years agoe.
I was with a modular model railroad club, and thay wanted to go to DCC and I asked if we can make a plug to test driffrent systoms on the module . and i was told by one member you cant run DC With AC It will blow up KBOOM KBOOM .
I told him we will put the DC systom in his car and he can plug it in at his home where it can blow his home when we test the systoms . 10 milesaway
Oh we did just used a switch to keep the 2 symptoms separate. and at that time all switches were manuale thrown.
My daughter lost all the TVs in her house from lighting. She had an electrician check her house and he found the ground had bad connection at the ground rod.
Yes a good ground is essential. When we redid the kitchen 10:years ago we had the electricians install a whole house surge suppressor in the main breaker box and they also added a second ground rod in addition to the connection to the copper water line. However with a strike that close to the house it obviously can find a path in anyway.
Do know that guy named Murphy .. ( worked with his son). years ago there was a lightning strike near CN's hump yard in Edmonton Alberta. It was observed hitting the earth, not buildings or poles, but the voltage surge went back through the grounding and let the smoke out of the hump yard computers. I also add a little cube arrester close to valuable equipment (single plug in). Great video, hope the camera hangs in there.
Larry, I don't want to be that guy, but when you demonstrated the DPDT switch you accidentally showed the switch positions backwards. I.e., when you had the switch in the DCC position it was actually in the DC position and vice versa (unless you have a special switch). I only point this out because I know you want to be completely accurate. If I'm wrong I apologize and feel shame. It also seems like you can combine both ideas and have two separate loops with just the interchange track selectable between DC and DCC.
Yes, I was trying to keep this as simple as possible and didn’t want to get into various permutation of the approach and the inner workings of DPDT switches. As far as using the switch on the interchange track, yes you could do that but it means running a loco onto the track, stopping it, throwing the switch, then moving off onto the other loop. And of course there will be the occasional operator who will forget and run right on through.
Bad luck with the lightning! I don't know how good surge protectors actually are, I suspect the cheap ones in power strips are pretty worthless. What keeps killing your cameras?
I spoke with tech support at Sony and even they couldn’t tell me why they fail. One day you turn the camera on, it clicks 3 times and that’s it. It’s been the same each time and tech support said it was nothing I had done it just happens. So after 5 fails I refuse to put another $250-300 into repairing each when I can buy a new 4K camera for a couple hundred more, and it won’t be a Sony!
@@TheDCCGuywow, repeated failures like that, and unhelpful support, would drive me for sure to another vendor. On the plus side the video quality of those Sony’s is great. Onwards to 4K.
Hello Larry do you have a email, I have a wiring issue using a double cross over, could use some help thanks
Not one I openly share on the internet. If it can fit in a comment put it there.
Ok Larry I will try and thanks
Hello Larry
Ok let’s try, building a new layout, arround the room with a lift gate, using the contact points from DCC concepts
I am planning a double staging yard using the new Walthers double crossover, both tracks are dead headed at one
Left track connects to main line via a turnout , right track connects to main line via a turnout, same main line
Planning to use Walthers switch machines on the double crossover and power the frogs as per Walthers wiring diagram
This way of connecting to main line looks like a wye ,
Want to control switch machines on double crossover with my NCE power cab
Do I have a possible shorted condition , do I need add a device to take care of this possible short condition
Not sure if you know Sparky107107 but he is coming over today to look at my track plan
Well my last name is 'Murphy', been accused of writing the book "Murphy's Law'! I DID NOT!!!
Well lightning are imprevisible, I always shut down all my elctronic un a storm
I am a retired Electronics Engineer, I used to repair TV's, Hi-fi, computer systems etc. and pipe organs (there is a lot of electronics and cables in these). I have seen a lot of equipment that have been zapped by lightning, what people don't know are:
1. Surge Protection Multi-sockets work once, the trouble is they don't tell you if they have been zapped, use UPS battery backups instead if you have to leave the cables connected
2. Lighting strikes hit more equipment then you know (including model railway/railroad DCC decoders), you may lose some equipment, but others have been weakened and can take up to 2 years for a fault to appear, this I have seen many times as people say they had not had a storm
3. Lighting strikes can effect buried cables of up to 1/2 a mile away. This includes electricity cables, internet & telephone copper cables and sat or cable TV copper cable
So what's the answer? Simple, unplug everything if you expect a storm (electric motors normally are not effected i.e. washing machine, fridge/freezer unless they have a digital display and/or wi-fi). UPS battery backups help and good ones have warranties to protect against lightning.
I had an unexpected strike in my yard, the UPS to it all.
I hope this helps for any future strikes.
Yes, my internet cable was buried near the tree and it wiped out the connection at the house but fortunately did not go further. My cable modem and wireless router are on an UPS so they did not get zapped. Hopefully the whole house surge suppressor in the breaker box is still in good working order-at least the two little green LEDs indicate that. Is there any way to check it or should it just be replaced?
@@TheDCCGuy I live in France and my 2 (house and chalet) house surge suppressor work every time (we have had a number of storms this year). So I don't know the American system, I guess yes it is working, but ask around.
Good job you have the modem & router on the APS, my internet is on fibre, it is in danger of trees falling on the cables.
I have 3 phase elec to the house on overhead cable, but I have a single phase underground going from the house to the chalet, this is where I get hit. At the moment I don't have an APS UPS, so I unplug it all.
Thank you again for your videos, I am new to DCC, so you are helpful.
Not a good idea to use DC and DCC on the same layout.