It better be a hit or someone is going to get hit in the scrum. If I was Chris or some of the other workers at PS Audio I'd be shipping unmarked envelopes full of cash to Stereophile and The Absolute Sound (with the subtlest of clues on who sent it). Perhaps filling the enveloles full of the letters "C" and "B" and "P" and "S". Every bit of bribery helps. ;)
Chris has a very good approach to transducer design. Brilliant, he makes it sound so straightforward it makes me wonder how come it isn't the way everyone builds speakers. Genius! Also I remember Speaker Lab from back in the day.
Always great to hear from Chris! Just looking forward to the release of your new speakers. It’s so interesting to hear about all the engineering and design going into them.
This content is awesome! Another great video. My guess is, even with a pretty sophisticated audiophile audience, the inner workings of a woofer are totally unfamiliar. You touched on a lot of topics that I'm sure a lot of viewers have never even heard of. Thanks for more great content!
Cool to learn about the Speakerlab lineage. They've got some really cool old speaker designs floating around the Seattle area and are held in high esteem from local audiophiles.
Whenever Paul speaks about drivers and materials I am listening... It's rare to hear and learn so much in detail on youtube. Please keep it coming. Thanks!
I built the SpeakerLab 1 for myself, the 3's for my brother, and helped a friend build the S50 for which he still has 2 pairs of the S50's. Another friend still owns the SpeakerLab 1 and 3 for which I and my brother sold to him. We use to visit SpeakerLab often in our younger years.
Oh dang, I'm from Seattle and purchased a bunch of stuff from speakerlab (on Roosevelt ave). Had no idea there was a PSA connection. They had cool kits as well as drivers.
I designed a woofer with two spiders back in the late 80's to keep the coil straight during high xmax. Mine was designed to have one in the normal position and the other was at the bottom of the coil. It made for a physically deep woofer but most boxes should be deep enough for it to fit.
man i would love to have lunch with chris......adire audio is legendary i have a anarchy exodus 6.5 in my setup right now.....with the tech he is talking about....unbelievable what those motors are capable of
Someone ought to have this guy assemble a team to re-invent the phonographic cutter stylus, using these newer innovations behind these speaker designs. Sort of re-adapt this technology that he’s talking about to a ‘new’ sort of phonograph system?! THANKS FOR SHARING!!
i had two sets of Speakerlab speaker kits that i built. I actually still have the Super 7's freaking awesome speaker going on 35 years old. still sound great but the 10" woofer and midrange need to be re-foamed the 12" woofer and Cobalt Ribbon tweeter provide excellent sound. So wish they were still around would definitely built another pair.
I too still have my speaker labs super sevens. I still live near speaker lab and was able to buy new mid range and woofers since the foam had rotted out. Can’t wait to hear the new FR 30s.
@@gtric1466 Way back in the early 80s a friend had the Speakerlab 7’s over at WSU in Washington and his frat was definitely known as the party house. He used to keep those giant speakers in his tiny little dorm room until it was party time and then half the time they were out the window rocking the campus. Nothing like compression horns if you want loud clean music.
Actually, Jon Lane (from Chane) used to work at Bohlender Graebener, before I worked there), and I actually introduced him to this and his vendor on the Chane speakers. Jon is a great guy and offers a very good value product.
cbrunhaver Chris, great info! I have only communicated with him a few times prior to buying my A5.5's, but he came across much like you; classy, professional, friendly, and very knowledgeable. Small world!!! 👍😊
I had the chance to hear some PSA prototypes at Axpona last year they were good but not the WOW I have come to expect from Paul and team. I am confident with Chris at work we will get something amazing and worthy of the PSA badge!
@Fat Rat I like to disagree. I was there at axpona in Chicago. I heard some speakers that sounded great and his sounded very ordinary. Paul is more of a Salesman than an engineer.
@Fat Rat that's great to hear. My point is this. Let's not default to blaming it on the room for Paul. I heard rooms that were good and I heard rooms that were not so good. So what you just default that it's the rooms fault is silly
I’m itching to get out of my studio apt, I have been designing my setup already using the new floor plan. My AVR needs more new caps than I thought, so I think I’ll be fixing my power amp (those parts I have lol) and using my studio mixer as a stand in.
Fat Rat yes that is a big concern of mine. I don’t want to have to throw out all my data lol. I’m not even going to begin to think about subwoofer setup until I’m able to hear the room.
Fat Rat this new apartment even has a door INSIDE it that has another room attached to it! I’m going from living on a postage stamp to a whole envelope and I couldn’t be happier. Maybe someday I can afford a file cabinet.
What is interesting about this discussion is that nobody has answered my question as to the difference between the bass response of the average '60s and '70s speaker and today's speaker. The old speakers just seem to be so much warmer and full with powerful bass in older speakers. Today the speakers sound more analytical and dry. Perhaps my ears are just not in tune either as I age. With all the technology at our fingertips today we should have it all at a reasonable cost and I am tired of hearing about the trade offs and sacrifices at the expense of lack of full round warm bass. Personally I think it is marketing and the ability of speaker companies to sell subs. End of my rant.
@Lloyd Stout You can take your pick of many speaker companies from the past. Today audiophiles are looking for something other than what music (naturally) sounds like. Too many people listening to their "components" and forget to listen and enjoy the music.
I definitely agree John. I have some new stand-mount speakers from Def Tech, paired with a couple of 15" subs from PSA, calibrated flat. But for pure music enjoyment they don't compare to my Pops 60 year old vintage speakers, which have that rich and natural life-like sound, which comes from their large coaxial paper/wizzer cone drivers.
It’s because nobody has yet realised that the theoretical and measured performance of music reproduction equipment has nothing to do with human enjoyment of music. It’s like many other things, the character we find attractive in things comes from the imperfections of the thing. Most of us don’t want flat, accurate sound. We want colouration in a style that suits our taste.
You sir need to pursue offerings such as Nelson Pass' First Watt amplifiers... as they are rich in 2nd harmonic. The generational differences of products from yesteryear to today ... include many things real and imagined, however distortion profile characteristics is certainly high on the list.
Yes, the standard woofer is a crude Device , a bunch of 8 inch woofers can work, but is not a efficient solution to this problem. After 40 % to my ear ear most drivers start to go down hill fast.
The suction phenomenon. Isn't that addressed using a rear-vented magnet? How does the multiple coil stages affect impedance seen by the amplifier, more demanding?
@Fat Rat But don't 100 tweaks add up to greatness? ;) One rumor is that they're up to 33 tweaks. Another is that they're up to 72 tweaks. They still have a ways to go.
"Excursion quadruples every octave you go down" is this only in a sealed enclosure? or is it specific to a Mid-woofer? In a ported Sub woofer application you have the least amount Excursion @ the port tuning frequency so from there excursion quadruples every octave you go down?
wait!..... dont i know that guy at the other table? red hair, graying sides? minutes later it came to me..... Henry Diltz. famous photographer. did early EAGLES albums.
@@portiktamas810 , without addressing him i cant be certain. but id bet $50. its either him or a doppleganger. ive watched multiple interviews of him. id be _v e r y_ surprised if its not him.
Lol!!!!!!! What speakers? Paul, you've been talking about these "speakers" for years. Has Chris even developed one set of speakers in his lifetime?? I'm not joking. Has he??
Well, Ryan, maybe it’s different in the world of selling exercise equipment. I’ve been at the company about a year and this is how long it has taken to design two planar magnetic drivers, 6 woofers and work through qualifying vendors and prototyping a high end product line. Yes, we had some “redos” due to industrial design considerations etc. but this is actually a normal thing within the world of high end speaker designs. What is rather unique is the openness at PS with the community showing things at an ideation or prototype stage and revealing the “sausage being made” and philosophies behind the designs. I personally like that part of the business but it does welcome criticism, apparently.
@@cbrunhaver I respect your response Chris. My criticism comes from Paul talking about speakers for years now. It started before you. What was also quite ridiculous is how he started out on TH-cam talking about a certain price and then changed the price like three or four times. That's just bizarre. Why even do that why not wait to get a final number and keep your trap shut? It's just strange and doesn't reflect well for the company. He also stated that he very much so dislikes side-firing woofers. Yet on the speakers in Chicago at axpona guess what we saw? We saw what he didn't like on his own speakers LOL. The guy is like the wild card in Uno.
Ryan Schipp I’m sorry if I came off poorly there. I appreciate the engagement and contribution to the dialogue here and elsewhere and don’t mean to be defensive but rather give an honest answer as to the schedule and design process as it stands. I hate to be an absolutist and say things like “side firing woofers are bad”. They certainly can be but it is very much a matter of the implementation. Someone like KEF uses them to great effect on some models. That 12” subwoofer driver was only operating from 80hz and down and is omnidirectional at those frequencies. As far as pricing goes we will have products at the price points that Paul originally targeted but not with the same driver configuration and features. We did move up the price of our initial “flagship “ to do something really high performance and reinforce the credibility of us as a speaker manufacturer. I hope to trickle this technology down even further than our initial offering, but we’re going top down instead of bottom up, conceptually. With speakers, unlike electronics, it’s not so much of a features purchase but really performance and cosmetics and we’re working hard to have a more than competitive offering.
@@cbrunhaver Hi there, I would think designing your own drivers is good as far as hitting key parameters, but aren't the tonal characteristics always a bit of a mystery for new drivers? I thought designing your own drivers would be too much at this point. Custom drivers seems like mkii territory.
I love such passion for perfection. Woofer distortion is a big problem. But how about servo feedback? Getting the cone to follow the signal as precisely as possible on linearity and timing is complex.
Brian Simmons Even the greatest woofer will have a decay issue that can be improved with servo to make the bass more precise. The reason we like high damping factor amps and good speaker cables is much about keeping the woofer cone in control, but still servo drive can do a much better job in making awesome precise, authentic, deep, undistorted, punchy, and not boomy bass.
@@briansimmons5363 Maybe, but in this context, I mean "we" as consumers. I use servo subs as a consumer. PS Audio should look at this tech (I met them at CES): www.subvo.com
I think a dog came up with the term Woofer? Next time I see one, I will ask. Maybe Nipper did? Never invent what has already been invented. Right Marconi?
It does almost sound like they're "re-inventing" the woofer here! So are they doing the whole "accelerometer servo" thing with these woofers like in the almighty IRS?
The things he speaks of have been invented by others. And they lead to very minor improvements. But the crossover and driver layout still have to be well designed.
@@thunderpooch SOME.. Of the things definitely! Focal has a similar approach to woofers if im not completely wrong. Whatever they're cooking up certainly sounds groundbreaking.
@@AllboroLCD Groundbreaking is all well and good, if and only if the basics are covered and executed well. And the basics are wicked difficult. Passive crossovers are old world tech that force your hand and constrain speaker designers in ways they couldn't have imagined. We shall see and hear....one day...possibly...maybe...in 2021? I don't think PS Audio should have gotten this far into driver design this early in the game. They should have targeted a frequency response profile they wanted to achieve. A dispersion patter to their liking (wide vs narrow), with off axis rolloff being coherent throughout the range. And made sure phase and impedance results were smooth and within their targeted range...the tighter the better for phase results. Also important is distortion, efficiency, and the tweeter's decay characteristic (quick drop off or one that lingers and emphasizes cymbals and high note string plucks). And then there's driver choice and their specific tone characteristics. There's so many basics to execute well and it's all a delicate balancing act, but the limiting factor is always the crossover. It keeps the entire design process sober and a labor of love...not a labor of adding bits of technical sham wow. You can't create an overly complex crossover to tame everything and address every issue or it sucks the life, musicality, and dynamic range out of the speaker. You often have to try multiple drivers and configurations with a few rudimentary crossovers to get close to to your overall design goal and sonic/tonal signature. After all this mixing and matching and then confirming with both in room listening tests and measurements are you then able to perfect the crossover. And you hope and pray at this point the crossover can remain relatively simple as parameters points (like phase, impedance, distortion, etc) are within their targeted range. If not, it's back to the drawing board. Theoretically, it's probably possible to put all these considerations into a super computer and it spits out an overall speaker design and what the individual driver specs should be so you can design them from the ground up. But so far, no good speaker company does it this way. They began by taking off the shelf drivers (there's hundreds if not thousands of great choices to choose from) and they mixed and matched until they went mad trying to target their goal using a few basic crossovers. Then they perfect the crossover on the combo which works best. Only after they have a completed speaker with a completed crossover do they become informed enough to reasonably know what changes they'd like to see in a custom built driver. Then once that custom built driver is made, often after a few expensive tweaks, does it become a mainstay and signature of the company. But it too will also go through slight changes over the years. Focal, Dynaudio, Faber, Harbeth, ATC, Vandersteen, Totem, etc. which have very unique drivers, didn't start out knowing exactly what changes needed to be made. It was a slow process and evolved throughout the years. The key to their success was abounding amounts of humility, vast knowledge, a little bit of luck that their initial approaches and hypothesies had merit, and a lot of work and constant experimenting. PS Audio seems better suited to mastering active speakers. There, they are truly positioned to make leaps and bounds in the industry. But I think the rudimentary and frustrating aspect of passive crossovers will create headaches for them that they can't foresee. Passive crossovers force very bright engineers to become dedicated artisans. And most fail to make the shift. I'm struggling to think of a well regarded hifi component company which also makes well regarded hifi speakers. I've been rooting for PS Audio for years to buck this trend.
@@thunderpooch Damn man, thats alot to digest right there. Your tech theory is spot on, although I feel PSA has the thought that theyve mastered the art of amplifier, and would like to take a whack at mastering speaker. My Dad worked for Altec Lansing in the 80's & 90's. They made a series of speakers that began strictly from computer output specs, so your only off on that one thing sir.
@@AllboroLCD sure, every Tom, Dick, and Harry speaker company has computer modeling available to them to spit out a speaker design. And many use this approach, but I don't think these are regarded as having a special tonal characteristic or measure so well they beat all the others. Those who are "tone whores" and pay over $10k a speaker don't mention Altec Lansing very much.
I'm not sure what he's saying about the Spider doubling it up offsetting the the peaks and troughs, a better way is to have it on the back of coil assembly so it's sandwich between the two spiders coil assembly, should be able to get away with this if you make the spider on back side near the plate on the backside smaller then the front, doesn't need to be as wide the spiders can have less tension, holds the coil assembly better in position stop oscillating because it's only held in both ends. tell him to do it that way I don't see any difficulty in it by holding the coil assembly tube on both ends
Well, the back plate is in the way of this. There are approaches that cut the back plate open to create a second magnetic gap, like the JBL differential drive approach. This may be where you've seen a spider on the back side of the woofer (Velodyne used this approach on the original HGS and DD subs).
@@cbrunhaver no I didn't explain it will I mean half way in the magnetic field if you cut a thin line and attach it between the magnetic more like a surround then a Spider with very tight thin rings 3 should be enough, a silk materials soaked in liquid foam, I don't know of this JBL
@Leigh Hewit Tell a little truth with that also like we have one of the lowest death rates in the world and passing most other countries combined in testing. If you have 2.7 other medical aliments and/or are over 70 you may have to wear a mask but for the rest of us walking through a park is a joke. Privet business can do what they want also. Last have you noticed no one died from the "flu" this past year? Hell in PA no one died of anything for a couple weeks but CV earlier this year. If you take out all the BS numbers from BS like that, put in numbers like how many die from flu and the common cold each year those numbers are no where near 200,000. States have been skewing the numbers like crazy so they can get that Fed gov cash. Just tired of the lies about something we should all be in on together and on the same page.
@@lynnpoole7830 haha i know guy dies from motorcycle accident death certificate says from covid19, many more, 300+ locations were busted in florida giving every test positive, CDC lowers that number you gave by 94% and rest was blamed on underlining issues and most were seniors. If you need to wear the mask wear it. but if you can still smell your fart through that mask does it really work? :P
Agreed!!! Its brutal. And every time he would talk about them the price would go up $1,000 at a time. I think he started at like $12,000 and I believe last I heard they're like 20,000
@Fat Rat Paul is full of s***. He's been talkin about these hypothetical speakers for years. And maybe the worst part about it is how we started at like $12,000 and they just kept on creeping up for like 20,000 LOL
@Fat Rat wow nice bold letters. Listen, no need to try to defend Paul. Here are the facts. The guy has been talking about his speakers for years. He's also talk about the price and then when he talks about the speakers again the price goes up and up and up. It's pathetic how long it is taken him could you develop a speaker. And if he's not sure on the price you should probably just keep his mouth shut and wait until it's developed and then just give a price. This isn't silly at all. It's facts. What's silly is how you feel the need to defend him
I disagree. It was Paul in a recent Q and A where he didn't even answer the question asked. Instead he rambled about the speakers being the most important, rather than explaining what design aspects are most important when building and designing speakers.
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Not only is Chris very knowledgeable, he's enthusiastic about what he's doing.
It’s interesting listening to people who are so knowledgeable of their job. I think I understood 2 minutes total of the 7 minute video 😊.
Sounds like Chris has been given "carte blanche" to do what he will with the PS Audio speaker designs. Excellent!
Can't wait to her these babies!
It better be a hit or someone is going to get hit in the scrum.
If I was Chris or some of the other workers at PS Audio I'd be shipping unmarked envelopes full of cash to Stereophile and The Absolute Sound (with the subtlest of clues on who sent it). Perhaps filling the enveloles full of the letters "C" and "B" and "P" and "S". Every bit of bribery helps. ;)
These won't be 'babies' but monsters in size and price
Chris has a very good approach to transducer design. Brilliant, he makes it sound so straightforward it makes me wonder how come it isn't the way everyone builds speakers. Genius! Also I remember Speaker Lab from back in the day.
We are getting some really interesting snippets here regarding speaker design. Kudos to PS Audio for sharing this with the world.
Always great to hear from Chris! Just looking forward to the release of your new speakers. It’s so interesting to hear about all the engineering and design going into them.
This content is awesome! Another great video. My guess is, even with a pretty sophisticated audiophile audience, the inner workings of a woofer are totally unfamiliar. You touched on a lot of topics that I'm sure a lot of viewers have never even heard of. Thanks for more great content!
Cool to learn about the Speakerlab lineage. They've got some really cool old speaker designs floating around the Seattle area and are held in high esteem from local audiophiles.
Whenever Paul speaks about drivers and materials I am listening... It's rare to hear and learn so much in detail on youtube. Please keep it coming. Thanks!
chris has a lot to offer, his explanations of speaker tech are clear and interesting
I built the SpeakerLab 1 for myself, the 3's for my brother, and helped a friend build the S50 for which he still has 2 pairs of the S50's. Another friend still owns the SpeakerLab 1 and 3 for which I and my brother sold to him. We use to visit SpeakerLab often in our younger years.
That's fabulous. Thanks for sharing. Growing up around the kit speaker business was very inspiring for me to learn more.
still have a pair of 7’s that I built in 1980. Still going strong.
Paul, this guy is a keeper!
Oh dang, I'm from Seattle and purchased a bunch of stuff from speakerlab (on Roosevelt ave). Had no idea there was a PSA connection. They had cool kits as well as drivers.
I designed a woofer with two spiders back in the late 80's to keep the coil straight during high xmax. Mine was designed to have one in the normal position and the other was at the bottom of the coil. It made for a physically deep woofer but most boxes should be deep enough for it to fit.
I hope these things actually sell! and I hope they have the looks to match their performance!
Yes and yes! 😁
Can't wait to see your speakers! What a clever guy Chris is 🙏👍
Can’t wait to see and hear them in person!
...must save money for speakers that don't exist yet... take your time PSA :)
man i would love to have lunch with chris......adire audio is legendary
i have a anarchy exodus 6.5 in my setup right now.....with the tech he is talking about....unbelievable what those motors are capable of
Someone ought to have this guy assemble a team to re-invent the phonographic cutter stylus, using these newer innovations behind these speaker designs. Sort of re-adapt this technology that he’s talking about to a ‘new’ sort of phonograph system?! THANKS FOR SHARING!!
i had two sets of Speakerlab speaker kits that i built. I actually still have the Super 7's freaking awesome speaker going on 35 years old. still sound great but the 10" woofer and midrange need to be re-foamed the 12" woofer and Cobalt Ribbon tweeter provide excellent sound. So wish they were still around would definitely built another pair.
I too still have my speaker labs super sevens. I still live near speaker lab and was able to buy new mid range and woofers since the foam had rotted out. Can’t wait to hear the new FR 30s.
The original speaker labs sevens with the horn loaded drivers were quite the rockers.
@@peterw2714 yes just before I purchased them they switched from the horns I so wanted the horns never had a chance to hear them
@@gtric1466 Way back in the early 80s a friend had the Speakerlab 7’s over at WSU in Washington and his frat was definitely known as the party house. He used to keep those giant speakers in his tiny little dorm room until it was party time and then half the time they were out the window rocking the campus. Nothing like compression horns if you want loud clean music.
Chane uses XBL2 SplitGap motors in their speakers as well, licensed under the Adire XBL2 patent. 👍😎
Actually, Jon Lane (from Chane) used to work at Bohlender Graebener, before I worked there), and I actually introduced him to this and his vendor on the Chane speakers. Jon is a great guy and offers a very good value product.
cbrunhaver Chris, great info! I have only communicated with him a few times prior to buying my A5.5's, but he came across much like you; classy, professional, friendly, and very knowledgeable. Small world!!! 👍😊
cbrunhaver P.S. Paul is great, but your videos are just awesome. Keep 'em coming!! 😊👍
@@DBravo29er thanks! Appreciate the comments and we’ll do our best to bring some good speaker content
I had the chance to hear some PSA prototypes at Axpona last year they were good but not the WOW I have come to expect from Paul and team. I am confident with Chris at work we will get something amazing and worthy of the PSA badge!
Why are you so confident and Chris? Has he even developed one pair of speakers in his lifetime?
@Fat Rat I like to disagree. I was there at axpona in Chicago. I heard some speakers that sounded great and his sounded very ordinary. Paul is more of a Salesman than an engineer.
@Fat Rat name one speaker he's developed?
@Fat Rat that's great to hear. My point is this. Let's not default to blaming it on the room for Paul. I heard rooms that were good and I heard rooms that were not so good. So what you just default that it's the rooms fault is silly
Ryan Schipp I trust Paul’s judgement.
Wow, you worked for Adier. Wanted a Shiva so bad back in the day.
I still have my Shiva. Still kicks butt.
It would be nice to see this all demonstrated in an animation.
I’m itching to get out of my studio apt, I have been designing my setup already using the new floor plan. My AVR needs more new caps than I thought, so I think I’ll be fixing my power amp (those parts I have lol) and using my studio mixer as a stand in.
Fat Rat yes that is a big concern of mine. I don’t want to have to throw out all my data lol. I’m not even going to begin to think about subwoofer setup until I’m able to hear the room.
Fat Rat oh yes, I do appreciate your support because you ultimately are right! I can only put up a bucket so I don’t get drool on the rug.
Fat Rat this new apartment even has a door INSIDE it that has another room attached to it! I’m going from living on a postage stamp to a whole envelope and I couldn’t be happier. Maybe someday I can afford a file cabinet.
My mind is officially blown.
Has PS audio abandoned servo assisted subs now? He didn't mention this.
Brilliant!
My first pair of good speakers was the Speakerlab model 30.
Can y'all build your speakers before I die! Hahahaha
Sounds like woofers with the technological advancements of a subwoofer.
What is interesting about this discussion is that nobody has answered my question as to the difference between the bass response of the average '60s and '70s speaker and today's speaker. The old speakers just seem to be so much warmer and full with powerful bass in older speakers. Today the speakers sound more analytical and dry. Perhaps my ears are just not in tune either as I age. With all the technology at our fingertips today we should have it all at a reasonable cost and I am tired of hearing about the trade offs and sacrifices at the expense of lack of full round warm bass. Personally I think it is marketing and the ability of speaker companies to sell subs. End of my rant.
@Lloyd Stout You can take your pick of many speaker companies from the past. Today audiophiles are looking for something other than what music (naturally) sounds like. Too many people listening to their "components" and forget to listen and enjoy the music.
I definitely agree John. I have some new stand-mount speakers from Def Tech, paired with a couple of 15" subs from PSA, calibrated flat. But for pure music enjoyment they don't compare to my Pops 60 year old vintage speakers, which have that rich and natural life-like sound, which comes from their large coaxial paper/wizzer cone drivers.
It’s because nobody has yet realised that the theoretical and measured performance of music reproduction equipment has nothing to do with human enjoyment of music. It’s like many other things, the character we find attractive in things comes from the imperfections of the thing. Most of us don’t want flat, accurate sound. We want colouration in a style that suits our taste.
You sir need to pursue offerings such as Nelson Pass' First Watt amplifiers... as they are rich in 2nd harmonic.
The generational differences of products from yesteryear to today ... include many things real and imagined, however distortion profile characteristics is certainly high on the list.
Whew...over my head lost him after Speakerlab...
Thinking 1st thing upon purchase would be to disassemble the speakers and see all this!
Yes, the standard woofer is a crude Device , a bunch of 8 inch woofers can work, but is not a efficient solution to this problem. After 40 % to my ear ear most drivers start to go down hill fast.
Love Pearl Street!
The suction phenomenon. Isn't that addressed using a rear-vented magnet?
How does the multiple coil stages affect impedance seen by the amplifier, more demanding?
It's actually not suction causing it but for magnetic reasons that a woofer can take on a dynamic offset under higher power.
Hope all those fancy tweaks make a great sounding speaker.
Nope. You had better have a good sounding speaker to begin with. These tweaks will only lead to marginal gains.
@Fat Rat But don't 100 tweaks add up to greatness? ;)
One rumor is that they're up to 33 tweaks. Another is that they're up to 72 tweaks. They still have a ways to go.
"Excursion quadruples every octave you go down" is this only in a sealed enclosure? or is it specific to a Mid-woofer? In a ported Sub woofer application you have the least amount Excursion @ the port tuning frequency so from there excursion quadruples every octave you go down?
Will there be Financing options for the new PSA tower speakers? (Asing for a friend)
Really nice..sounds better than dSP Y'all use Fariday Ring!
Bottom line has to Be efficient use?
I wonder if PS Audio uses feedback in it's woofer designs?
Are drivers pistonic only or does vibration of the driver also how sound is produced?
When will the speakers finally be finished???
In 2030
@@ryanschipp8513 that's too optimistic
@@davidhardaker192 lol
wait!..... dont i know that guy at the other table? red hair, graying sides?
minutes later it came to me..... Henry Diltz. famous photographer. did early EAGLES albums.
Really? 🤣🤣🤣
@@portiktamas810 , without addressing him i cant be certain. but id bet $50.
its either him or a doppleganger.
ive watched multiple interviews of him.
id be _v e r y_ surprised if its not him.
I wonder if Chris has come across Purfi speaker drivers ? Check them out ...
Lol!!!!!!! What speakers? Paul, you've been talking about these "speakers" for years. Has Chris even developed one set of speakers in his lifetime?? I'm not joking. Has he??
Don't talk about the obvious, lol. Just keep tuning in and possibly buy a PS Audio component.
Well, Ryan, maybe it’s different in the world of selling exercise equipment. I’ve been at the company about a year and this is how long it has taken to design two planar magnetic drivers, 6 woofers and work through qualifying vendors and prototyping a high end product line. Yes, we had some “redos” due to industrial design considerations etc. but this is actually a normal thing within the world of high end speaker designs. What is rather unique is the openness at PS with the community showing things at an ideation or prototype stage and revealing the “sausage being made” and philosophies behind the designs. I personally like that part of the business but it does welcome criticism, apparently.
@@cbrunhaver I respect your response Chris. My criticism comes from Paul talking about speakers for years now. It started before you. What was also quite ridiculous is how he started out on TH-cam talking about a certain price and then changed the price like three or four times. That's just bizarre. Why even do that why not wait to get a final number and keep your trap shut? It's just strange and doesn't reflect well for the company. He also stated that he very much so dislikes side-firing woofers. Yet on the speakers in Chicago at axpona guess what we saw? We saw what he didn't like on his own speakers LOL. The guy is like the wild card in Uno.
Ryan Schipp I’m sorry if I came off poorly there. I appreciate the engagement and contribution to the dialogue here and elsewhere and don’t mean to be defensive but rather give an honest answer as to the schedule and design process as it stands.
I hate to be an absolutist and say things like “side firing woofers are bad”. They certainly can be but it is very much a matter of the implementation. Someone like KEF uses them to great effect on some models. That 12” subwoofer driver was only operating from 80hz and down and is omnidirectional at those frequencies.
As far as pricing goes we will have products at the price points that Paul originally targeted but not with the same driver configuration and features. We did move up the price of our initial “flagship “ to do something really high performance and reinforce the credibility of us as a speaker manufacturer. I hope to trickle this technology down even further than our initial offering, but we’re going top down instead of bottom up, conceptually. With speakers, unlike electronics, it’s not so much of a features purchase but really performance and cosmetics and we’re working hard to have a more than competitive offering.
@@cbrunhaver Hi there, I would think designing your own drivers is good as far as hitting key parameters, but aren't the tonal characteristics always a bit of a mystery for new drivers?
I thought designing your own drivers would be too much at this point. Custom drivers seems like mkii territory.
💙💙💙
Nerd Alert
Just kidding. Good stuff
Plenty of nerds on this chat, me included.
A bit of nerding on speakers every day, keeps de doctor away.
I love such passion for perfection. Woofer distortion is a big problem. But how about servo feedback? Getting the cone to follow the signal as precisely as possible on linearity and timing is complex.
That's a great question. Especially for PS Audio who own a set of IRSs.
Brian Simmons Even the greatest woofer will have a decay issue that can be improved with servo to make the bass more precise. The reason we like high damping factor amps and good speaker cables is much about keeping the woofer cone in control, but still servo drive can do a much better job in making awesome precise, authentic, deep, undistorted, punchy, and not boomy bass.
@@ThinkingBetter Sorry, what do you mean by "we"? I understand what you wrote and agree but you make it sound like you work for an audio company.
@@briansimmons5363 Maybe, but in this context, I mean "we" as consumers. I use servo subs as a consumer. PS Audio should look at this tech (I met them at CES): www.subvo.com
@@ThinkingBetter very cool
Yeah I got it - whatever he said = low distortion / great sound ! 😂
I think a dog came up with the term Woofer? Next time I see one, I will ask. Maybe Nipper did?
Never invent what has already been invented. Right Marconi?
Could you ask the people behind you not to talk while Chris is talking?
There's a real motormouth in your vicinity.
It does almost sound like they're "re-inventing" the woofer here! So are they doing the whole "accelerometer servo" thing with these woofers like in the almighty IRS?
The things he speaks of have been invented by others. And they lead to very minor improvements.
But the crossover and driver layout still have to be well designed.
@@thunderpooch SOME.. Of the things definitely! Focal has a similar approach to woofers if im not completely wrong. Whatever they're cooking up certainly sounds groundbreaking.
@@AllboroLCD Groundbreaking is all well and good, if and only if the basics are covered and executed well. And the basics are wicked difficult. Passive crossovers are old world tech that force your hand and constrain speaker designers in ways they couldn't have imagined.
We shall see and hear....one day...possibly...maybe...in 2021?
I don't think PS Audio should have gotten this far into driver design this early in the game.
They should have targeted a frequency response profile they wanted to achieve. A dispersion patter to their liking (wide vs narrow), with off axis rolloff being coherent throughout the range. And made sure phase and impedance results were smooth and within their targeted range...the tighter the better for phase results.
Also important is distortion, efficiency, and the tweeter's decay characteristic (quick drop off or one that lingers and emphasizes cymbals and high note string plucks).
And then there's driver choice and their specific tone characteristics.
There's so many basics to execute well and it's all a delicate balancing act, but the limiting factor is always the crossover. It keeps the entire design process sober and a labor of love...not a labor of adding bits of technical sham wow. You can't create an overly complex crossover to tame everything and address every issue or it sucks the life, musicality, and dynamic range out of the speaker. You often have to try multiple drivers and configurations with a few rudimentary crossovers to get close to to your overall design goal and sonic/tonal signature. After all this mixing and matching and then confirming with both in room listening tests and measurements are you then able to perfect the crossover. And you hope and pray at this point the crossover can remain relatively simple as parameters points (like phase, impedance, distortion, etc) are within their targeted range. If not, it's back to the drawing board.
Theoretically, it's probably possible to put all these considerations into a super computer and it spits out an overall speaker design and what the individual driver specs should be so you can design them from the ground up. But so far, no good speaker company does it this way. They began by taking off the shelf drivers (there's hundreds if not thousands of great choices to choose from) and they mixed and matched until they went mad trying to target their goal using a few basic crossovers. Then they perfect the crossover on the combo which works best. Only after they have a completed speaker with a completed crossover do they become informed enough to reasonably know what changes they'd like to see in a custom built driver. Then once that custom built driver is made, often after a few expensive tweaks, does it become a mainstay and signature of the company. But it too will also go through slight changes over the years.
Focal, Dynaudio, Faber, Harbeth, ATC, Vandersteen, Totem, etc. which have very unique drivers, didn't start out knowing exactly what changes needed to be made. It was a slow process and evolved throughout the years. The key to their success was abounding amounts of humility, vast knowledge, a little bit of luck that their initial approaches and hypothesies had merit, and a lot of work and constant experimenting.
PS Audio seems better suited to mastering active speakers. There, they are truly positioned to make leaps and bounds in the industry. But I think the rudimentary and frustrating aspect of passive crossovers will create headaches for them that they can't foresee. Passive crossovers force very bright engineers to become dedicated artisans. And most fail to make the shift.
I'm struggling to think of a well regarded hifi component company which also makes well regarded hifi speakers. I've been rooting for PS Audio for years to buck this trend.
@@thunderpooch Damn man, thats alot to digest right there. Your tech theory is spot on, although I feel PSA has the thought that theyve mastered the art of amplifier, and would like to take a whack at mastering speaker.
My Dad worked for Altec Lansing in the 80's & 90's. They made a series of speakers that began strictly from computer output specs, so your only off on that one thing sir.
@@AllboroLCD sure, every Tom, Dick, and Harry speaker company has computer modeling available to them to spit out a speaker design. And many use this approach, but I don't think these are regarded as having a special tonal characteristic or measure so well they beat all the others.
Those who are "tone whores" and pay over $10k a speaker don't mention Altec Lansing very much.
I'm not sure what he's saying about the Spider doubling it up offsetting the the peaks and troughs, a better way is to have it on the back of coil assembly so it's sandwich between the two spiders coil assembly, should be able to get away with this if you make the spider on back side near the plate on the backside smaller then the front, doesn't need to be as wide the spiders can have less tension, holds the coil assembly better in position stop oscillating because it's only held in both ends. tell him to do it that way I don't see any difficulty in it by holding the coil assembly tube on both ends
Well, the back plate is in the way of this. There are approaches that cut the back plate open to create a second magnetic gap, like the JBL differential drive approach. This may be where you've seen a spider on the back side of the woofer (Velodyne used this approach on the original HGS and DD subs).
@@cbrunhaver no I didn't explain it will I mean half way in the magnetic field if you cut a thin line and attach it between the magnetic more like a surround then a Spider with very tight thin rings 3 should be enough, a silk materials soaked in liquid foam, I don't know of this JBL
All those people wearing masks.... drinking the same cool-aid.
And the people that are not who preach a lot also......
I guess 195,000 dead is fake news....right?
@Leigh Hewit Tell a little truth with that also like we have one of the lowest death rates in the world and passing most other countries combined in testing. If you have 2.7 other medical aliments and/or are over 70 you may have to wear a mask but for the rest of us walking through a park is a joke. Privet business can do what they want also. Last have you noticed no one died from the "flu" this past year? Hell in PA no one died of anything for a couple weeks but CV earlier this year. If you take out all the BS numbers from BS like that, put in numbers like how many die from flu and the common cold each year those numbers are no where near 200,000. States have been skewing the numbers like crazy so they can get that Fed gov cash.
Just tired of the lies about something we should all be in on together and on the same page.
@@lynnpoole7830 haha i know guy dies from motorcycle accident death certificate says from covid19, many more, 300+ locations were busted in florida giving every test positive, CDC lowers that number you gave by 94% and rest was blamed on underlining issues and most were seniors.
If you need to wear the mask wear it.
but if you can still smell your fart through that mask does it really work? :P
@@BLacknesmonstaz Fool
The Question is when are they going to ready ... Ya been talking about for years Paul ... Starting to become boring ... Just saying
Agreed!!! Its brutal. And every time he would talk about them the price would go up $1,000 at a time. I think he started at like $12,000 and I believe last I heard they're like 20,000
@Fat Rat Paul is full of s***. He's been talkin about these hypothetical speakers for years. And maybe the worst part about it is how we started at like $12,000 and they just kept on creeping up for like 20,000 LOL
@Fat Rat wow nice bold letters. Listen, no need to try to defend Paul. Here are the facts. The guy has been talking about his speakers for years. He's also talk about the price and then when he talks about the speakers again the price goes up and up and up. It's pathetic how long it is taken him could you develop a speaker. And if he's not sure on the price you should probably just keep his mouth shut and wait until it's developed and then just give a price. This isn't silly at all. It's facts. What's silly is how you feel the need to defend him
Gonna call it like it is. Chris didnt even answer the questions. Just babbled on and on...rambled.
I disagree. It was Paul in a recent Q and A where he didn't even answer the question asked.
Instead he rambled about the speakers being the most important, rather than explaining what design aspects are most important when building and designing speakers.