The problem with having Rose not accept David Tennant quickly would be that it was the first regeneration for many people, meaning that the audience would also not accept David Tennant either. Personally I think they did the right thing.
I think her sense of progression made sense. She hated ten at first and wanted him to change back even. But if someone proves to you they’re the same person, why wouldn’t you trust them and like them? Personally I think it just shows how loyal Rose is to the Doctor.
Gamelover254 i get that point and it makes Sense but the doubts would be there for a while its not instant same person cause its a reminder every time she sees his face being different and he act different, it’s should be her accepting him but not 100% leading to altrucations and things of that nataure until she accepts the new parts of the doctor as well
BatDeGea 1 I agree with you from a narrative perspective, it sounds good. However, the audience are more important to win over at this point in time because without them, you wouldn’t have a series to watch.
@@RealBadGaming52 I actually would have kept watching if Capaldi alienated me more, he felt so familiar after Smith that I just got bored and completely tuned out. When 9 regenerated to 10, it felt like meeting a whole new character. When 10 regenerated to 11, it really felt like Moffat just cranked up the existing energy and zaniness and made a few smaller tweaks, but it was enough to feel fresh at the time, at least. Now it's like the Doctor's been stuck on that level of energy/zaniness ever since and all that really changes is the actor and minor quirks. Like sure, the Doctor should always be eccentric and have a sense of humour to keep things fun, but you really should take more risks to keep it interesting. RTD had no clue how Tennant would play after Eccleston's moody and serious portrayl initially won the modern audience for him, and that's EXACTLY how he created one of the definitive doctors.
I understand your point about Rose taking to Ten too quickly and it shouldve taken the whole series for her to come around to him but I disagree. As someone who only started watching Who in 2005 and had never been through a regeneration before, if it took Rose soo long to accept him, it might have taken me a while to accept him too! With Rose accepting him at the end of Xmas Invasion, it reassures the audience and tells them that this new man is The Doctor.
Not sure it is about "accepting" the 10th Doctor. Rose could have done that but still clashed with him a lot more than she did, as she did with the 9th. Examples are given for where this could have happened. Yes it also mentions places where doubts are revealed but this would be more subtle than her simply not accepting him.
I personally think that Series 2 was meant to be less focused on character arcs. This era for the Doctor was supposed to be his sort of ”golden age”, where there wasn’t much problems, and he traveled everywhere with someone he loved a lot. This to me, emphasises the ending and future arcs of the Doctor a lot more. Because it’s the loss of those golden days, the loss of Rose, which sets up future arcs a lot better.
I never had any issues with this season, I always loved it. I often really enjoy more episodic shows, having no kind of conflict with Rose or not that much of plot throughline never bothered me.
@@RealBadGaming52 Mystery boxes are shit. No one seems to handle them well. But I don't miss episodic shows either. Everytime I remember episodic court/investigation dramas from the 2000s I get chills down my spine.
@@frde2190 It's the same kind of humour during 11's first story when he beats the villain and then goes 'WHO DA MAN?' but in that case it's self-aware that it's cringe with the Doctor saying 'Oh, I'm never doing that again.' and played off as a joke as opposed to it continuing as being genuine like in the 13th Doctor's case.
Tennent was just a warmer doctor so it makes sense their bond would be almost instantaneous, capaldi was cold and that’s why he and Clara don’t gel immediately
@@frde2190 Capaldi’s Doctor was a mess. His personality just changed every series - it’s not character development it’s just bad writing. He just became an older version of Matt Smith’s Doctor (which is essentially what he is but still..).
@@badboyfank3325 Really? Season 8 was pretty clearly a different/reactionary change from doctor to doctor, and series 9 was very much defined by the suicidal nature of this doctor. By the time we reach series 10, he becomes more like Matt Smith, I will agree, but he becomes embodied by the whole “crazy professor” archetype, and honestly still is very different yet still similar to series 10. 9 and 10 are more connected then 8 and 9, but it’s still a clear 1 character.
@@insertlaughter4436 I'd love to believe that but it was just Moffat doing a 180 on his character after getting a cold reception to Capaldi's grouchiness in S8. So he gave him a guitar, sunglasses and turned him into Matt Smith 2.0. And then after making him too silly, he made him a uni lecturer in S10 which surprisingly was the first time his character actually felt grounded.
I always just kind of felt like Ten and Rose getting on so well (too well?) was the point. Rose and Ten spend most of S2 flopping around not taking things seriously and so it felt inevitable when something really terrible happened. If there had been non-stop conflict going on between Ten and Rose then I don't think the ending would have hit as hard.
I should say, this isn't, you know, my whole life. It's not all spaceships and stuff, because I'm into all sorts of things. I like football. I like a drink. I like Spain. And if there's one thing I really, really love, Jeff Lynne and the Electric Light Orchestra. Because you can't beat a bit of ELO.
I know season 1 has no bad episodes- But season 2 is what i live for. I love the chemistry between Rose and the Doctor, which was what season 2 is built upon.
No bad episodes? Yeah right. The Charles Dickens one is pretty bad. Let's not forget the Slitheen, literally a bunch of fart monsters. Seriously. Someone thought that would be a good idea. And people thought Jar Jar Binks was bad. Not to mention the series finale was pretty much, "Rose enables GOD mode, insta-kills all Daleks."
series 1 and 2 are both fantastic, i guess the change in tone is what disorients some fans. but it did have some of the best moments of the Doctor-Rose-Mickey dynamic, im suprised, i was under the impression its one of the most well loved series.
I think the only reason I watched series 2 is because of David and Billie. Their acting is always so good that it compensates some of the badly written episodes.
I find it funny that one of the criticism leveled at the Doctor and Rose of series 2 being that they have such great chemistry instead of a conflicted relationship, but at the same time praises the series for it's experimental effort. The very idea of giving the Doctor a companion that he would actually love is pretty experimental. Most of the Doctor's following companions did stick to that dinamic of quarreling with him to keep the viewer engaged, but in the second series they decided to try something different. Most of the time, the Doctor is rather selfish individual, going around doing what he wants, picking people up as if they were strays and then dumping them, as Sarah says in School Reunion. He was a traveler, an adventurer and basically immortal. Of course he always did so, because people would always inevitably leave him. And when you say it was a rather experimental series, I think you nailed it. The central theme is basically a "What if..." scenario. What if the Doctor finally found someone that he connected so deeply that maybe the idea of settling down wasn't so bad after all? School Reunion and The Girl in the Fireplace show the usual endings of why this never happens. A companion that was infatuated with the Doctor, but gets left behind and a lover that is outlived by him. Would Rose become one or the other? At the same time, it's played as an impossibility because they are just SO GOOD together! They will certainly have a happy ever after won't they? The other episodes either emphasize their synergy and their growing love for each other (New Earth, Tooth and Claw, The Idiot's Lantern, The Impossible Planet, The Satan Pit) or reinforces the idea that, in the end, there IS a special someone out there for everyone and place where you truly belong (Rise of the Cybermen, The Age of Steel, Fear Her, Love & Monsters). Until reality comes crashing down on them. The worst fears of the Doctor come through, he can never be with Rose. The emotional impact is so great that he burns a whole star just to see her off.For so many episodes, they show how the Doctor just cares for the unknown, for the thrill. What does it matter if people die, if calamity strikes? He is having fun, being challenged, being threatened. Now, there is someone who is just like him! Other companions usually have something or someone they are still attached to, but Rose decides that it doesn't matter, her place is and always will be with the Doctor. And in the face of humanity extinction, after defeating two incredibly powerful enemies, one of them being so deeply connected to the Doctor's past, he doesn't even acknowledge it. The only thing he cares about, in the end, is Rose.
Wow. You actually gave me a new prespective on the series here. Don't get me wrong. I do wish some of this had been delved into deeper. like girl in the fireplace i wish the doctor and rose had spoken about it after (or at least have it acknowledged that it was left unspoken between them) and i thnk the fact RTD wrote less of the main series did make it suffer in terms of overall coherence but I still really respect more now the ideas presented and how they delved into the relationship perhaps more than i realised!
The RTD era is my favourite of modern Doctor Who, and Series 2 has always been my fav series. 10 & Rose are also my fav Doctor and companion. I don't think it's objectively the best, but I just love this series so much. Really enjoying your Doctor Who reviews btw.
The only series of its format I'll say which has 3 really strong two-parters. One of my favourites because I love Ten and I love Rose (#1 doctor and #1 companion), and it's one of the series which is most coated in nostalgia for me (I watched S1 as it aired but was too young to really remember, so S2 is the first series I fully remember watching as a kid). It also has my overall favourite story of the show as a whole in The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit. :D It's also kinda responsible for launching both the spin-offs
Rose deserves more praise. If we count her good stories at least half hold up. Series 1 and bits of Series 2 Rose were good and why don't we like that?
MrDalekEmperor2 and? She’s still young. she’s poor, she’s dating an equally poor mechanic with a future not really going anywhere. And then she meets the doctor, a young girl whisked away by this romantic hero of course she’s going to fall in love, she’s conflicted, she comes from nothing, she’s been exposed to the wonders of the universe and grows as a person and Mickey is a reminder of the life where she had nothing. The life where she was stuck in a shop, eating chips, living with her mum. She betters herself with the Doctor and is reluctant to let Mickey travel with them at first but then look how devastated she is when he leaves in age of steel. She has character growth and would be terrible as a companion if she was completely perfect
@MrDalekEmperor2 She was 23 by the time of "New Earth," if you assume she was with the Ninth Doctor for about a year and a half, and treat many of the New Series Adventure novels of the Ninth and Tenth Doctor continuities as canon.
I suppose it really depends on what you look for in a series. Series 2 was my absolute favourite at the time for the exact reasons you disliked it. I was a young child, and the change from one doctor to the next was jarring, Rose accepting him at the end of The Christmas Invasion reassured me that the show was still the Doctor Who I fell in love with. On top of that, the stability of 10 and Rose's relationship gave a safety to the show that made it palatable to me, and overall less frightening, added with the fact that the romantic relationship development between 10 and Rose was what I tuned in for, far more than the actual action. As an adult I can see that a romantic arc isn't exactly great character development, particularly for your female lead but at the time, it was what would hold my attention most. The companion has always been the audiences way in to the Doctor's psyche, which is perhaps why a young man would see Mickey as far more of a draw, and why as a young girl I would identify strongly with Rose, and invest deeply in her relationship with the Doctor. Obviously these are the rosey observations of a little girl, however, I think the broad appeal to more of the population than simply the sci-fi junkies is what actually made the show as successful in the modern era as it was.
Every time you say “the fanbase thinks X about Y” I always feel like maybe I don’t know my own fanbase as well as I thought 😂 Loved series 2, David Tennant and Billie Piper, and the other companions given more light in the series.
I'm sorry. But what do people actually find enjoyable about that episode. Seems people who like it , like it for the purpose of being edgy or different rather than actually liking the episode.
@@callumbliss3731 I like it because it’s funny, it doesn’t take itself too seriously and gives Jackie some great material. I always loved it, nobody gives a fuck about being edgy, they just like different stories to you.
I feel like Billie and David’s BRILLIANT acting makes up for the second series being a bit weaker. (Seriously BRILLIANT) As far as Rose and Ten having less conflict than Rose and Nine as well as David’s more human portrayal of the Doctor, I would argue that though yes these two are still the Doctor with memories from previous incarnations, they are two completely different people. As it’s been said when the Doctor regenerates every single atom in his body changes meaning genetics, how the Doctor looks, acts, how he handles different situations. Everything about him literally changes. If you think about that, the fact that Ten and Rose didn’t have as many conflicts as they did in his previous life makes sense since he’s technically an entirely different person than his ninth incarnation was. Yes Tens darker side does come out from the burden of his past incarnations and anything they’d done (*cough* Timewar *cough*) but it still makes sense for Ten to act in a Completely different way than Nine did. (Sorry if that was confusing I’m not great at explaining things)
I get that tension in relationships can make for great stories but I find it really nice for them to get on so well, the tension came from micky being there and the doctor being drawn to help other women.
Really like the video, but I must be living in different circles. Do people not like Rose and Tennant? Was it divisive? In general, I felt Series 2 and their relationship really hooked the fan base. I do agree with a lot of what you've said, but I wasn't under the impression it was a broadly held opinion.
Depends on the audience. I'm pretty sure the romance they introduced was to appeal to the female demographic. It worked for them, but more strictly sci-fi fans didn't like it as much, especially since historically it wasn't something that happened (until that really bad 1996 movie).
@@tristansteinbomer3256 obviously you've never seen much of the classic show. The only perfect Doctor is 4 no one else comes close except maybe McGann or Capaldi
@@ghstudios5087 that's ur opinion but mine is that 10 is the best doctor and 12 is in 2nd place. Tom Baker is a good doctor but not so much if compared to Mcgann.
I find it strange that so many fans who hate the Doctor's romance with Rose aren't half as annoyed by River Song. Not sure if Harbo falls into this category or not, but I see it from fans all the time and it baffles me. Sure, Ten and Rose had this giddy teen "first love" feeling to their romance that could be annoying as an older viewer. But I can forgive it as Rose is literally nineteen years old, and Ten is a new regeneration who, as Harbo says, has finally started to heal from the Time War, and who just has a more goofy, upbeat disposition in general. The romance itself can be embarrassing but it's built on some solid characterisation. I never felt that way about the Doctor and River. Eleven didn't feel like himself around her, Ten and River completely lacked chemistry, and River's dynamic with Twelve was diluted by his quasi-romantic relationships with Clara and Missy. She ended up feeling like a Madam du Pompadour, being portrayed as a great love of the Doctor's life in the episodes she appeared in but seeming not to matter or exist beyond them. The difference in fan reaction to the two relationships is really odd.
@@HarboWholmes Yeah, I never really understood why River and the Doctor had to be a romance in the first place, if I'm being honest. They would have worked just as well as a friendship, especially when she is later revealed to be Amy's daughter. (Making it a friendship would have removed a lot of the creep factor too. He held her as a baby! Why would you include that!?) It's a shame because Alex Kingston is a great actor and the central conceit of a character meeting the Doctor "out of sync" with his timeline is incredible. Such a great idea! I just wish it had been executed better. But the romance in season two is definitely something a lot of fans criticise while not seeming to find the River / Doctor stuff to be a forced romance at all. To which I come over all Tenth Doctor "What? What? What??" Doctor Who fandom can be bizarre sometimes.
Your forced generalisation stinks. There are many fans out their that don't like Doctor's romance with River either, you can literally find them any where. Some find River annoying just like the way someone could find Rose annoying. Although, some may give The Doctor/River more leeway probably bcoz she wasn't a teenager like Rose and reached well into her 200s or bcoz she was a time travelling intellectual like him...I dunno. 10 and River having chemistry wouldn't make sense anyways, the dude met her for the first time and didn't know who tf she was lol. Also not every Doctor/companion relationship is romantic. 12 wasn't romantic with Clara but he was very close to her - it was platonic. Missy and 12 being romantic is a big oversimplification, the Doctor/Master relationship is far too complex for humans to understand, the roots of their relationship goes back to when they were kids on Gallifrey.
@@cja5612 What? What false generalization? That a lot of Whovians who hate the Ten and Rose pairing like River and the Doctor? They do. I never said EVERYONE who hates the pairing falls into this category. Just that these fans exist and they confuse me. What are you so offended about? It seems like you don't like either of them, so I can't imagine how you would take my criticism personally. 10 and River having chemistry would make perfect sense, even if they just met. Sexual chemistry isn't dependent on how long or how well you know someone. It's just there or it isn't. And in the case of Ten and River, I personally felt it wasn't. Obviously every companion the Doctor has isn't romantic. I call the Clara and Missy relationships QUASI romantic because it's a fact that both those pairings had a fanbase, and Moffat would occasionally throw both sides a bone by invoking a romantic trope in a platonic setting. Which had the unfortunate effect of confusing the issue. Just google the ship names, if you somehow managed to exist in Doctor Who fandom all these years without realising this. Moffat even ship-baited with Amy and Eleven. Repeatedly. Remember when the cold open of A Good Man Goes To War tried to make you think Amy had just had the Doctor's baby? Or how Moffat teased the same thing when Amy wouldn't tell Rory she was pregnant in the season six opener? It was a deliberate misdirect on both occasions, but it was obvious what Moffat wanted his audience to think. Personally I prefer a platonic Doctor / companion relationship. But I'm not blind to the way Moffat plays around with the issue.
A bit of constructive criticism: I understand your reluctance to use any audio from the show, you don’t want to get hit with any copyright strikes or anything, but your point about the music being overpowering doesn’t work if you don’t show any examples. As you were talking about it I was thinking “huh, I’ve never noticed that, I wonder which scenes he’s referring to” and now I still don’t know which scenes you were referring to because you didn’t give a single example. Even if you’re not willing to play the clips, you need to at least mention which scenes it’s particularly bad in. In any form of essay, written or video, you can’t just make claims without providing any examples as evidence. If you don’t backup your claims, you’re just asking the audience to assume they’re true because you said so. If you can’t show any examples due to copyright, then you should have just left out the music part altogether.
as someone who grew up with Season 2 but has no strong memory of Season 1, I always despised Rose as a character and couldn't understand why she was so beloved. But now that I'm actually re-watching all of Season 1 from the start, she really does seem like a totally different character, and I actually LIKE her - she has personality, gets scared but is also brave and smart, isn't rude or dismissive to anyone who isn't the Doctor, actually challenges the Doctor, stands up for herself, and immediately attempts to connect with the people she meets on their adventures, showing her human compassion and genuinely caring for them. Rose of Season 2 seems to care about nothing BUT the Doctor, which is not how a companion should be.
So I actually loved series 2 and the lovey dovey relationship between the doctor and rose, my only critique is that girl in the fireplace doesn't fit in the context of the series and should have been in series 3.
Not sure I agree with your take on the ideal characterisation for Rose in S2! Personally I find I get really impatient with seasons where the companion isn't sure whether or not to trust the Doctor. Rory mistrusted the Doctor for most of Vampires in Venice, and I don't think I could have stood it beyond that. Donna mistrusted him during the Runaway Bride, but I much preferred their tight knit friendship of S4. Martha clashed with the Doctor often, and is probably the companion who formed the least enduring bond with him as a result. It definitely damaged their friendship, making incidents like the Osterhagen Key possible but preventing you from feeling like they were as truly close as other companions. And I hated the Moffat Doctor's tendency to lie to his companions "for their own good". It felt so disrespectful. So you think something's happening with your friend's body where she may or may not be pregnant . . . and you don't tell HER about it? Who does that? It's the same with Clara and her past incarnations. Instead of respecting her and letting her in on a mystery which directly concerns her, the Doctor says nothing and the writing starts telling us "the Doctor lies". Which . . . well yeah, but there are lies and there are lies. That never felt like an authentic way for the Doctor to treat his friends. Hiding things about his own past is one thing, hiding information about his companions bodies is another. Maybe it's the fact that this attitude and the jerkface "the Doctor lies" characterisation was such a huge part of the Moffat era. Maybe I'm just burnt out on seeing companions who can't trust him. But one episode of doubt is enough for me, these days.
Oh I definitely hate the whole 'Doctor lies' thing too. It annoys me every time they mention it. The whole 'rUlE oNe: ThE dOcToR LiEs' thing got so frustrating. But I do like when the show explores companion reactions to regeneration in depth, because it makes sense to. It's not something you could easily accept if your friend just became an entirely different person in front of your eyes, regardless of whether they're an alien
@@HarboWholmes Absolutely. The fact that some later era companions don't seem to bat an eyelid at his regenerations never rang true to me. There's a moment in s6 where you realise Amy and Rory know all about the Doctor's ability to regenerate and he's filled them in offscreen about all kinds of things, and I just remember feeling so cheated by that. Like, why would you rob us of the chance to see their reactions? It would be like bringing a companion on and not bothering to show their first step into the TARDIS. Sometimes I do wish the production model for Doctor Who was a bit different, with more oversight to the writers or with an American style writers room to hash out ideas. There are so many frustrating oversights and unexplored avenues across ALL the seasons of NuWho.
The Doctor didn't need to tell Amy anything. She first revealed she was pregnant, she later said she wasn't. We later see that this was a ganger of Amy that wasn't consistently registering the pregnancy. So blaming the Doctor for not telling a flesh ganger is silly lmao. The Doctor also tells Clara about how he met her Dalek and Victorian incarnations in "Journey to the centre of the TARDIS". She said the Doctor was scaring her by telling her those things and she denied that any of them were her. Obviously you forgot those clear points in the episodes. Also "The Doctor lies" is a reference to the magnificent 7th Doctor who also was steps ahead and wanted to make sure he knew what he was heading to. The Doctor doesn't always lie but when he does, it's for a good reason. He has no obligation to tell them everything
@@cja5612 The Doctor absolutely should've told Amy what was happening with her. He didn't know she was a ganger all along - he only suspected that, and didn't know for sure until the The Rebel Flesh two-parter. He himself tells us this. That's MONTHS after he first noticed the pregnant / not pregnant signal. Months Amy has been spending locked up in a tiny cell on the other side of the universe. He just left her there, all that time. No urgency? The truth is the characterization is poor here. The only reason the Doctor lets the situation go on for so long is that Moffat wanted him to only find Amy after she'd given birth. He wanted a season of Amy doing normal companion stuff right up until the big shock and body horror of "OMG SHE'S PREGNANT AND SHE'S GIVING BIRTH RIGHT NOW!" And to accomplish that he sacrificed the Doctor's character. You can defend that if you want. I don't. So what if Amy was a ganger, by the way? It was established that Amy's ganger thought and felt just like the real Amy. When he talks to ganger!Amy he's basically having a long distance phone call with the real Amy. What's the worst that happens if he tells her? Kovarian wouldn't have killed Amy if the plan was discovered ahead of time. It seems to me like the only negative consequences would be for Kovarian's side. Amy could have been found and rescued months earlier, and her baby kept safe. Why wait until literally the most inconvenient time possible to effect a rescue? It's dumb. And it's disrespectful to Amy not to tell her about something that's happening with her own body. So what if she told him she was pregnant and then told him she wasn't? Imagine you were friends with a real doctor, and you told him "I thought I had cancer but my symptoms stopped suddenly so I must not!" And he's looking at you and seeing other symptoms you haven't noticed, that suggest maybe you do have cancer after all. Doesn't that friend owe it to you to say "Look, I don't want to scare you, but I've noticed these other symptoms too and I think you need to get some proper testing. Immediately." Or would you think it was was fine if your doctor friend decided to just watch and wait for six months to see what happened? Again - what difference would it have made if the Doctor had told Amy and Rory about the oscillating test result? Yes, they would've been worried about it. But they're grown adults, not little children who need to be protected from ever feeling anything complicated. Rory said it himself in 6.02 - Amy should've told him she thought she was pregnant. They're married, and that's their potential baby, and the whole point of being married is that you face stuff like that together.
@@cja5612 I didn't forget about the Doctor and Clara in Journey . But Clara isn't scared in that episode because of what the Doctor is telling her. She's scared because he's behaving like a complete creep and a lunatic. He doesn't sit down calmly and explain what he knows to her. He spends the whole episode glaring at her sideways, making vague threats and insinuations and blaming her. He acts as if she's keeping secrets from him deliberately and keeps demanding she tell him the truth, shouting in her face and shaking her by the shoulders. It's as if her friend has suddenly morphed into this paranoid madman. Clara has no idea why, and to cap it all off, their lives are in danger, and he seems like that's not his primary focus. Of course she's scared! Who wouldn't be? But in most future episodes Clara is shown to be pretty level headed. She values her independence and it's important to her that she gets to make her own decisions. If the Doctor had approached her about this is a rational, respectful way, then yeah, maybe she would have been scared by the implications . . . but I think she would also have been compelled to discover the truth of the mystery. I think she would have risen to the challenge, not run away from it. But again, we don't know. Because Moffat insisted on writing the Doctor as this compulsive liar who would rather keep secrets and patronize his companions even when it makes no sense for him to do so.
Is...is it really a bad thing to have limited conflict among the protagonists? I understand conflict makes things interesting, but characterization shouldn't be sacrificed just because "it's interesting". This is the problem I have with the romances in Harry Potter, they're too dramatic and filled with conflict that makes the characters unlikeable or just plain irritating. Not to mention, Jackie remarks on Rose's change at the end, so her being more happy-go-lucky is in line with her character in this series. I do agree that Girl in the Fireplace needed to be placed differently, because it does interrupt the flow of the romance subplot. All in all, I don't understand why it's cool to hate the romance in the fandom. Fangirls may make it utterly ridiculous in their tumblr posts and fanfics, but it's hardly this egregious black mark everyone makes it out to be. Some say "he's always been asexual," to which I say, "Tell me how he has kids and a granddaughter if he's never had a sexual relationship." Some people bring up the age, but Arwen is around 2000 years old while Aragorn is 87 (and don't you dare bash Tolkien), Wolverine is way older than everyone in the X-Men, and stories about these immortals falling for a mortal have been around since time immemorial. Now, if you just don't like it, feel free. Everyone has likes and dislikes. But saying that it's out of character or creepy or ruins the series objectively is disingenuous and projecting. If you don't like it, fine, but not everyone who likes it is a teenage girl who's never watched Classic Who. I'm a guy in my early 20s, and I both watch and love Classic Who.
Absolutely agree with all of this, but would like to note that there's also nothing wrong with teenage girls loving the Ten/Rose relationship. There are many ways to be a fan of a thing, and you don't have to knock down one way to bring up another.
@@bookishtook I can see how that could be interpreted as denigrating all teen girls, and for that I apologize. My biggest point was that people tend to think that the only people who like that romance are teen girls on tumblr who don't know anything about romance. I grew up with girls who were very intelligent, and don't think they are all idiots (beyond the natural idiocy of adolescence that boys and girls both go through).
Rose is one of my favourite companions I grew up with David tenant every season the tenth doctor is in is just awesome. There isn't anything wrong with rose in season 2 it's all just soooooooo good
I've always had a soft spot for S2. it obviously has flaws but I personally find it a strong series and a better series than S3, to be honest. Rose is my personal favourite companion in the RTD era, It felt like the others just weren't as fleshed out, most likely due to Rose having two series while Donna & Martha only had one, although the 10 & Rose relationship can get pretty cringey at times.
In my opinion, doctor who was built on seperate stories that are found together in a season. But that's how doctor who works: which planet will we see now- who's the monster- how will the doctor stop him/her.
It’s interesting, the Series 2 Doctor is probably The Doctor at his happiest in New Who. Really, almost every other series of New Who, The Doctor is facing some dangerous, intense threat, or he’s coming out of some huge tragedy, or he’s going around being introspective and grumpy. The Series 2 Doctor on the other hand, is just a happy guy going on adventures with his girlfriend. It’s fine, but you can say that it’s less interesting. There’s little personal conflict in Series 2. That’s probably why people don’t like it. Happiness is boring.
Great vid as usual! I totally agree with the description of series 2 as having many good eps but being bland overall. I still really enjoy it though, out of nostalgia and also just simply enjoying 10 and Rose together (even if they are "blander" than 9 and Rose). Looking forward to your series 3 stuff, I feel I'll finally start to disagree with you a bit :)
I still don't get your obsession with the Girl in The Fireplace episode ... you're so quick to critique Rose and your expectations of how she should act around the new 10th Doctor...but you don't critique how the Doctor leaving his companions and Tardis on a spaceship is soo off character? Also how is Girl in the Fireplace a staple episode to the Season 2 plot? I agree that Tooth and Claw, School Reunion, and the Cyberman two parters are important...but GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE??? LMAOOO how does that episode contribute to the story arc?!?!
Not sure why you think I'm 'obsessed' with it. I made a video about it, like I did about every other episode in the series and I give it equal footing here too. And yes, in my video about the episode, I do critique how The Doctor leaves Mickey and Rose on the ship. I can fetch the script and paste it here for you if you want. But you must have already seen it since you think I'm obsessed with the episode. Also, it is a staple episode for the series because it sets up his emotion at Rose's departure by establishing how he struggles with losing people he loves. And calling me delusional suggests you have a pretty low bar for someone being delusional, just saying.
@@HarboWholmes Hey sorry about calling you delusional, I didn't mean it in a menacing way, I was joking. I respect your opinion and do value your content! I just have trouble seeing that episode being vital to the story arc. The Doctor always loses people, and I don't think he loves Reinette...he just feels guilty, and he moves on just like he does in every other episode...I think there are a lot of episodes throughout the series that showcases his emotional attachment to whenever he departures from Rose, we can even see it in the New Earth episode, when he gets upset about Cassandra taking over Rose's body. Russell T Davies actually tweeted the original episode order for season 2, and Girl in the Fireplace was supposed to be the first episode, but it was too risky of a plot for the first episode. If they followed that order, it might have actually made sense....
The Rise of the Cybermen is one of the best two parters I think, it really feels like a well crafted alternative universe movie, but the way it brings back Jackie and Pete, just so well done. RTD really was fantastic
my issue with series 2 is that it has always felt a bit like a premature victory lap. In certain areas like Billie Piper's performance and RTD's writing you occasionally get a sense that they suddenly realised that they were "famous now" and that it impacts their performance
I don't really have a problem with the sound mix personally, and I can't believe it was mocked in a sketch show. I could hear the dialogue perfectly fine.
Everyone knows the worst part of series 2 was that the Doctor Who figured designed a Destroyed Cassndra frame toy and sold it for way more money than it deserved 😁
I unfortunately did, in some video about Doctor Who series ranked from worst to best. It's not surprising tho since series 11 was in the better half of the list...
If you look on the Doctor Who subreddit or even in some ranking made by fan, you'll see it's often considered as the weakest series from RTD era, and as one of the more bland series of Doctor Who
I don’t particularly enjoy about half of series 2, even though 10/Rose was my favourite pairing of the RTD era. New Earth, Tooth and Claw, The Idiot’s Lantern, Love and Monsters, and Fear Her are all kinda bad in my opinion, and then The Christmas Invasion, the Cybermen two parter and even School Reunion are just kinda “good” rather than great. I’d say it was definitely the weakest series until Chibnall came along, although series 7 comes close.
there was character development though in the christmas invasion Rose had to do the doctors job and talk to the sycorax herself she miserably failed and got laughed at coz she was clearly making it up and stammering nervously however in doomsday she confronted the daleks herself and by talking was able to keep herself alive
I really love series 2, but I can see and agree with most of your criticisms. I agree that it doesn't feel as narratively tight as series one, but that doesn't dampen my love of it any less. I do, however, disagree with Rose being a "shadow" of her series one self. I felt like series one Rose was dipping her toes into the TARDIS waters and discovering who she was in that world, and it culminated with her finding her identity at the end of the series. Series two uses all of that build-up and growth and shows Rose more in her element, really taking charge in a lot of the episodes with less direction from The Doctor, because the confidence is now there that she was still discovering (and gaining) in the previous series. I think the slight lack of tension between her and The Doctor in this series is because they had built all of those blocks from series one and now function better as a unit. I personally think it was really important to see them working so well as partners for Rose's departure to hit as hard as it did, though I can see how some people would have preferred to have more conflict.
Series 2 will always have a special place in my heart as the first complete series of Doctor Who that I watched. I adore it, but I have to admit that it is the weakest of the RTD series. I think that Rose and Ten's relationship is actually a nice contrast to other Doctor-companion relationships. They work as a great romantic couple, and it serves to better highlight the differences between Nine and Ten, and later between Rose and Martha. It also highlights the fact that The Doctor and his companion are not perfect, and are not meant to be perfect. Rose and Ten can sometimes come across as a bit cliquey and exclusive, but they are rightfully called out on it, and I personally enjoy how the series builds up this idea of the two almost being too perfect for each other - amplifying each other's worst tendencies and excluding other people from their clique. It's a very human dynamic, and creates interesting conflicts with the supporting characters, crucially being the driving force behind Mickey's departure.
Honestly Rose and the Doctor didn’t bother me that much in this season, they could definitely be a bit much at times but it was tolerable. My dislike of them is moreso a retroactive one since it always bothered me how the Doctor lead on and ignored Martha in series 3 because he was moping about Rose. So I’ll be interested in seeing your coverage of that relationship for your upcoming reviews!
Well I won't be talking about The Doctor being a dick to Martha too much in depth, since I've already made a video essay about it. I wouldn't want to repeat myself too much! But I will still be touching on it throughout the reviews
As an American, much more accustomed to episodic shows where only some of the episodes push directly into the season finale, I didn't overlook the more episodic nature of Series 2 so much as not find it problematic. As for both the Doctor and his relationship with Rose, both came out as exactly what I'd expect if Rose had a big influence on the Ninth Doctor through butting heads with him, which in turn is exactly what I'd expect from the man who just burned his entire race and is now questioning who he is and what it means to be The Doctor. Again, as an American, the things I expect to not be episodic are the influences of one season on the next one. That's where I look for development and that's where I saw it here.
Although I found this video interesting, I have to say that I disagree with the core concept. One of the greatest strengths of Doctor Who is it's ability to use a "adventure of the week" format without it getting old, due to the infinite number of locations, adversaries and situations that the premise allows for. After such a well constructed arc in the first series, I really enjoyed how series 2 allowed us to simply tag along with the Doctor and become attached to a new incarnation without all of the baggage a heady story arc would come with. Given the more standard arc structures of the following series, I think this may have been intentional as it establishes the unique tone of the new Who in every episode, building the universe instead of the characters. All of this said, I actually think series 2 was perfectly played to cement the universe and open the door for future series.
The Christmas Invasion 7/10 New Earth 6/10 Tooth & Claw 5/10 School Reunion 8/10 The Girl in the Fireplace 8/10 Rise of the Cybermen 8/10 The Age of Steel 7/10 The Idiot's Lantern 4/10 The Impossible Planet 8/10 The Satan Pit 8/10 Love & Monsters 3/10 Fear Her 2/10 Army of Ghosts 8/10 Doomsday 9/10 Overall 7/10
It was mostly the boomers who hated that they wanted companons who was only there to get captured like in classic who they never liked characters with personality like rose or Martha
@@Jackgames-vg7cw I'm not a boomer, and I dislike Rose because she had an unlikable character. You've obviously never seen classic if you think it's all female companions that no nothing except scream and get captured.
Wait, so you're complaining that series two was episodic instead of serial? 🤨 You do realize that _Doctor Who_ has always been like that right, it's always been a hybrid of random multi-episode arcs without a main story for the whole series.
Thank you for mentioning the background music. I don't know what it is about the sound engineers, but I get so tired of trying to hear what people are saying over loud background music that I often just stop watching sometimes, even when the show is Doctor Who. You'd think that since they pay the actors so much money, they would want the audience to clearly hear what they are saying, but apparently sometimes they would rather hear the orchestra and sound effects than listen to wha tthe Doctor has to say.
I can't believe what I'm hearing, people don't like series 2? People don't like rose? Series 2 is perfection it has a balance of everything. You say the doctor and rose have no chemistry followed by they get along to well. 🤔 the ending beach scene is brilliant and shows what they mean to each other. The fact he burns up the sun just to say goodbye. Guess you cant please everyone.
In my opinion, Series 2 is one of the best, if not the best series Whoniverse has ever produced. I agree that Love & Monsters was a bit cliché, and Fear Her could've done with a few tweaks, but even those episodes were extremely good. Personally, I don't understand how anyone would even consider Series 2 to not be as phenomenal as it totally was.
Tbh I think it was probably a good thing that Rose got used to the new Doctor after Christmas invasion to sell the concept of regeneration to a new audience. She's the only thing we had left that we knew and related to. While I'm not in love with their romantic pairing, I liked the through-line of them treating their adventures like games and being called out on it and for that to hit them in the finale. And tbh Clara not accepting the new Doctor made it harder for me to get invested in their relationship. Especially when she's met other Drs before.
@@nightowl8477 Yeah I get why she'd find him abrasive cause of how he acts cause even the War Doctor seemed nicer but even when he's just changed she's going "this is wrong" and she said please don't change to 11.
@@Ben-vf5gk - I mean a companion witnessing and interacting with every incarnation of the Doctor should make for some pretty nuanced reactions to drastic change in someone you love. Instead it's just, "ew he's oLd." I get it, and it works, but do it with a different companion and a different Doctor. Even from Deep Breath, there's too many layers to 12 to reduce him to "the old one, like Hartnell but with sunglasses and porn jokes!"
@@nightowl8477 Especially considering we didn't get the glory of the sunglasses and porn jokes until his second series! And Clara being a teacher doesn't help the Hartnell comparisons!
I mean I love series 2. I just think it perfectly establishes David tenants doctor. The series does put Rose in a difficult place. The companion is always the audience surrogate. To a lot of people this would’ve been their 1st regeneration, they would themselves not be sure if the new doctor works. Having the audience surrogate not sure about the doctor would just make the new viewers struggle to get used to a new doctor.
I always liked season 2 with rose and the 10th doctor because they feel like they are "becoming a couple" in a none literal sense thus making the fact that they are ripped apart and she is constantly taunted by her lose the rest of the 10th doctors run
the problem with series 2 is not that its bad its a good series its just that its the series after series 1 and was not as good as series 1 in terms of quality of episodes. series 2 has episodes like new earth tooth and claw the idiots lantern love and monsters and fear her
@@Jackgames-vg7cw they are not terrible but compared to series 1 they are not as good, it was going to be hard to do a series as good as series 1 but it was a very good attempt the other problem was rose and 10, i would give series 1 10/10 and series 2 a 7 or 8 /10
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Taking the Doctor and Rose's relationship aside, I still liked Series 2. There were others I liked better, sure, but I feel like a lot of the kinda forgettable episodes get a lot more flack then I think they deserve. Like, Fear Her was bad, but it had its moments, the Wire episode was honestly my least favorite of the series, despite liking the location and overall theme, and I still like Tooth and Claw, so idk, maybe I'm just weird. However, you are right, it did feel kinda, disjointed, especially when comparing it to other series in the show's lineup. Side note: As someone who lives in the states and having to download these episodes the day after they aired, because they didn't really air here until Series 5, I'm glad even with clearer quality people noticed how loud the music was.
I think the theme of series two is how the Doctor can change someone I mean, it's obvious for Rose because of series 1, but we also have Mickey who stopped being an idiot and was changed, Jackie and Pete found each other, we have Sarah Jane Smith who just can't have a normal life because of the Doctor, and that's also the case of Madame de Pompadour and Elton Pope.
Yes, that's my take on it too. And for the Doctor, it's the first time we really see the burden of knowing he won't be changed in the same way. He won't grow old or settle down or die. The audience is slowly made aware of the life he can't have through the themes of each episode. In School Reunion it's a long term relationship. In GITF it's aging at the same speed as someone else. In Fear Her it's fatherhood. And finally it's romantic love with Rose. In The Satan Pit it looks for a while as if they'll have to settle down and live a normal life together - but fate intervenes. In Doomsday she's stripped away from him for good, but the whole series has been toying with this idea of loss and separation for the two. It comes up in almost every single episode. I don't think that's an accident.
The Girl in Fireplace is a quite good story, but as a standalone. My pet peeves is it kinda ruined the supposedly growing romance tension between Tenth and Rose - like existing in a wrong slot. Probably why I always like Ninth/Rose better. I also think Series 2 got more dislikes because the comparison with series after that. Series 4 is the best, Donna is much loved. And fans still got annoyed with how good Martha could be if she got better characterisation - not to mention her series got some of the best episode in the era.
Donna and Martha are better characters but the Rose and 10 dynamic gives me the most fluttery butterflies. So that’s what sells the series for me. I can’t help it, I think they’re endlessly precious.
It's that very preciousness that puts some fans off, myself included I must say. I find plenty of good things in Series 2, but the Ten/Rose relationship isn't one of them. Turning the centuries-old, alien Doctor into a love-lorn puppy crushing on a teenager still feels a bit off to me :)
@@ftumschk I can respect that. If we’re just going off logic, it doesn’t make much sense. But I don’t really care? It’s funny, because any other time they’ve gone for a romance with a companion I haven’t liked it one bit actually. This is the exception. And supernatural age gaps never really bother me anyway. The existence of a centuries old being is way too far beyond our understanding of mortality and the like, so I tend to see the Doctor as being whatever age they appear as for all intents and purposes. But again: I get when it’s too much for people to swallow, I really do.
@@bespectacledheroine7292 I'm pleased that the Ten/Rose relationship works for so many others, don't worry! I've been following Doctor Who for just over half a century, and one of the things I truly love about the show is its ability to appeal to a wide range of tastes... albeit not always at the same time :)
@@ftumschk I love old and new Who equally (For different reasons of course), and love how doing so connects me to fans from all walks. Maybe if I’d grown up with the classic series I’d be a little more critical of some of these decisions, but given that the 9 and 10 period of the show was my introduction to one of my favorite universes, I turn a blind eye to the flaws of these eras.
I thought series 2 was absolutely great one of my favourites. I just cannot understand why others did not appreciate it so much. I watched every episode of new Who again during lockdown and I enjoyed it much less once Rory and Amy left.
The problem with this series is that David Tennant pushes the limits of how great his Doctor is with each series. Once you get to series 4, it’s hard to revisit this one and not feel a little let down.
Idk what you are talking about with this. Most of the episodes of this season were among the best of all the new Who episodes and David Tenant pretty much is Doctor Who as far as I'm concerned. Also, I've not been overly fond of Doctor Who having the season build up to some threat towards the end of the season, I've always preferred episodes that were one off, that just focus on the adventure, rather than feeling like something had to happen. I feel like those episodes really played into the Doctor being a wanderer at heart, someone who wasn't out looking to save the world but someone who would not turn his back on people who needed help if he encountered them.
Although Series 2 was a mixture of scattered episodes as opposed to the Series 1 package, as you say at 16:54, I think that helps writers see and understand the difference between the two series and help them decide how they want to create their stories. The same can be said about how each story arc's setup of Bad Wolf, Torchwood, Saxon etc. have different ways of being presented, regardless of how good or bad it helps from a learning perspective. After all, variety is the spice of life.
I sort of disagree on Series 2 having loads of incredible episodes. To me the Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit and The Girl in The Fireplace are the only great episodes. School Reunion has some amazing character interactions especially between Sarah Jane Smith and the Doctor but the overall plot feels kinda weak. Army Of Ghosts/Doomsday is good, but we barely get to see the Daleks fighting the Cybermen and it largely depends on how much you like Rose In Series 2 whether you love the finale or not. Plus to be honest, Series 2 Rose pales in comparison to her Series 1 counterpart like you said. The rest of the episodes range from bad-okay for me. Still really enjoyed the video though.
You pretty much sum up my feelings for series 2. Series 2 is inferior if we're comparing it to series 1 and Rose becomes one dimensional love interest in series 2 which is a shame as I thought she was excellent in series 1.
There is only one reason I hate season 3, that can only be explained in one word... Martha. She's a snotty stuck up brat. When the doctor took her to new new(x15) York Martha threw a fit because The Doctor took Rose there once. When Captain Jack was celebrating that Rose was alive, Martha rolled her eyes and mumbled some mean stuff about Rose. When Martha actually met Rose, she was nothing but a jerk to her. Atleast Rose and Sarah Jane became friends after their argument. Also let's not forget Martha left the doctor and joined UNITS military defenses team or whatever, and guess what UNIT likes to use. Lots of guns and the doctor hates guns, Martha knows that but she don't care. I'm so upset Martha took up 3 episodes of season 4! That was Donna's time to shine, not stuck up Martha!!!!!!
haha Patreon go brr
www.patreon.com/harbowholmes
haha pinned comment go brr
@@danielhenze8182 Haha funny reply go brr
@Clown haha reply to funny reply go brr
I'm not paying to hear your stupid opinions.
Lucas O'heyze there’s no such thing as a stupid opinion
The problem with having Rose not accept David Tennant quickly would be that it was the first regeneration for many people, meaning that the audience would also not accept David Tennant either.
Personally I think they did the right thing.
I think her sense of progression made sense. She hated ten at first and wanted him to change back even. But if someone proves to you they’re the same person, why wouldn’t you trust them and like them?
Personally I think it just shows how loyal Rose is to the Doctor.
Gamelover254 i get that point and it makes Sense but the doubts would be there for a while its not instant same person cause its a reminder every time she sees his face being different and he act different, it’s should be her accepting him but not 100% leading to altrucations and things of that nataure until she accepts the new parts of the doctor as well
BatDeGea 1 I agree with you from a narrative perspective, it sounds good.
However, the audience are more important to win over at this point in time because without them, you wouldn’t have a series to watch.
Thats a great point actually, could be why people dont like Capaldi because the companions never fully trusted him and neither did the Audience.
@@RealBadGaming52 I actually would have kept watching if Capaldi alienated me more, he felt so familiar after Smith that I just got bored and completely tuned out. When 9 regenerated to 10, it felt like meeting a whole new character. When 10 regenerated to 11, it really felt like Moffat just cranked up the existing energy and zaniness and made a few smaller tweaks, but it was enough to feel fresh at the time, at least. Now it's like the Doctor's been stuck on that level of energy/zaniness ever since and all that really changes is the actor and minor quirks. Like sure, the Doctor should always be eccentric and have a sense of humour to keep things fun, but you really should take more risks to keep it interesting. RTD had no clue how Tennant would play after Eccleston's moody and serious portrayl initially won the modern audience for him, and that's EXACTLY how he created one of the definitive doctors.
I understand your point about Rose taking to Ten too quickly and it shouldve taken the whole series for her to come around to him but I disagree. As someone who only started watching Who in 2005 and had never been through a regeneration before, if it took Rose soo long to accept him, it might have taken me a while to accept him too! With Rose accepting him at the end of Xmas Invasion, it reassures the audience and tells them that this new man is The Doctor.
I agree. And I feel like if it took Rose too long to accept Ten as The Doctor, people would complain about that, too.
Not sure it is about "accepting" the 10th Doctor. Rose could have done that but still clashed with him a lot more than she did, as she did with the 9th. Examples are given for where this could have happened. Yes it also mentions places where doubts are revealed but this would be more subtle than her simply not accepting him.
I agree! Also if she hadn't ever massively trusted him Doomsday's tear jerker on the beach wouldn't have been as good
I didn’t accept smith as a kid because I was so upset at losing Ten, who himself was so devastated at ‘dying’ and some ‘new man walking off.’
I totally agree with that :) now ten is my fave and guess what my favourite quote of his is...
☝️
I personally think that Series 2 was meant to be less focused on character arcs. This era for the Doctor was supposed to be his sort of ”golden age”, where there wasn’t much problems, and he traveled everywhere with someone he loved a lot. This to me, emphasises the ending and future arcs of the Doctor a lot more. Because it’s the loss of those golden days, the loss of Rose, which sets up future arcs a lot better.
Well said. If every series wants to be huge, then none is
I never had any issues with this season, I always loved it. I often really enjoy more episodic shows, having no kind of conflict with Rose or not that much of plot throughline never bothered me.
i wish Episodic TV would return but with every TV show being a mystery box and basily a 10 hour films
@@RealBadGaming52 Mystery boxes are shit. No one seems to handle them well. But I don't miss episodic shows either. Everytime I remember episodic court/investigation dramas from the 2000s I get chills down my spine.
@@RealBadGaming52 ¿What about Series 11 and Series 12?
If Rose lacks character development during season 2 I shudder to imagine what you think of the Doctor’s ‘fam’ during season 12
I cringe whenever I hear that word. Fam.
Im waiting for her to say YOLO next🤦♀️
@@RosesTeaAndASD I think it was meant to be cringe and funny at the same time but it just came off as cringy
@@frde2190 Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
@@frde2190 It's the same kind of humour during 11's first story when he beats the villain and then goes 'WHO DA MAN?' but in that case it's self-aware that it's cringe with the Doctor saying 'Oh, I'm never doing that again.' and played off as a joke as opposed to it continuing as being genuine like in the 13th Doctor's case.
@@flyhyland who da man is funny
Tennent was just a warmer doctor so it makes sense their bond would be almost instantaneous, capaldi was cold and that’s why he and Clara don’t gel immediately
I agree, Peter capaldi did a great job at acting different than Matt Smith. He portrays a less kind doctor and more serious
@@frde2190 Capaldi’s Doctor was a mess. His personality just changed every series - it’s not character development it’s just bad writing. He just became an older version of Matt Smith’s Doctor (which is essentially what he is but still..).
@@badboyfank3325 Really? Season 8 was pretty clearly a different/reactionary change from doctor to doctor, and series 9 was very much defined by the suicidal nature of this doctor. By the time we reach series 10, he becomes more like Matt Smith, I will agree, but he becomes embodied by the whole “crazy professor” archetype, and honestly still is very different yet still similar to series 10. 9 and 10 are more connected then 8 and 9, but it’s still a clear 1 character.
@@insertlaughter4436 I'd love to believe that but it was just Moffat doing a 180 on his character after getting a cold reception to Capaldi's grouchiness in S8. So he gave him a guitar, sunglasses and turned him into Matt Smith 2.0. And then after making him too silly, he made him a uni lecturer in S10 which surprisingly was the first time his character actually felt grounded.
@@badboyfank3325 No, Matt Smith is Tom Baker season 17 or Sylvester McCoy season 24.
Series 10 Capaldi is the badass teacher.
I always just kind of felt like Ten and Rose getting on so well (too well?) was the point. Rose and Ten spend most of S2 flopping around not taking things seriously and so it felt inevitable when something really terrible happened. If there had been non-stop conflict going on between Ten and Rose then I don't think the ending would have hit as hard.
I love Series 2. I absolutely adored David and Billie together. Rose is far and away my favorite companion.
Errrrrrm Donna would stand up to Doctor Rose just lusted after him
@@CashelOConnolly jaimej40: Rose is my favourite companion
Radical Rainbow: nO sHe's NoT!!!
Kangaroo if you or any one else likes Rose Tyler good for them,it’s just a character in a children’s show
@@CashelOConnolly It's not a children's show.
@@timrosswood4259 yes it is. It’s funded by the BBC’s children department
I should say, this isn't, you know, my whole life. It's not all spaceships and stuff, because I'm into all sorts of things. I like football. I like a drink. I like Spain. And if there's one thing I really, really love, Jeff Lynne and the Electric Light Orchestra. Because you can't beat a bit of ELO.
People dislike series 2 Rose? Heck! Not in this house. I will allow that series 2 lacks the pop of series 1 or 4 but Rose Tyler forever!
I just feel that she could have had a better character without loving the Doctor
Rose is just a one dimensional love interest in series 2.
In nearly 60 years and over 100 companions, she's genuinely the worst companion of all
Totally agree. I love her in all of her appearances.
What about the Moment Rose?
Fear Her would be considered the highlight of the season if it was aired in the Chibnall era lol
So true
Why
Matthew Harrison Because Fear Her sucked, but better than The Chibnall Era episodes
No it bloody wouldn’t
@@MatthewsStopMotions
Haha, yeah it would.
I know season 1 has no bad episodes- But season 2 is what i live for. I love the chemistry between Rose and the Doctor, which was what season 2 is built upon.
Are the farting aliens ruining 3 episodes of season 1 only for me?
No bad episodes? Lol ok
No bad episodes? Yeah right. The Charles Dickens one is pretty bad. Let's not forget the Slitheen, literally a bunch of fart monsters. Seriously. Someone thought that would be a good idea. And people thought Jar Jar Binks was bad. Not to mention the series finale was pretty much, "Rose enables GOD mode, insta-kills all Daleks."
It’s always gonna be hard to top the near perfection that is Series 1.
Series 3 and 4 say hi. Series 1 is great however but still in the phase of finding itself but a few weaker stories.
Series 4 has entered chat
Against all odds. I'm surprised anything got made in Series 1 honestly.
and then series 4 came
series 1 and 2 are both fantastic, i guess the change in tone is what disorients some fans. but it did have some of the best moments of the Doctor-Rose-Mickey dynamic, im suprised, i was under the impression its one of the most well loved series.
I think the only reason I watched series 2 is because of David and Billie. Their acting is always so good that it compensates some of the badly written episodes.
They have chemestry.
Honestly, most of the actors where perfect in their roles! Like David legit is chef’s kiss! And the companions my heart!!!
I find it funny that one of the criticism leveled at the Doctor and Rose of series 2 being that they have such great chemistry instead of a conflicted relationship, but at the same time praises the series for it's experimental effort. The very idea of giving the Doctor a companion that he would actually love is pretty experimental. Most of the Doctor's following companions did stick to that dinamic of quarreling with him to keep the viewer engaged, but in the second series they decided to try something different. Most of the time, the Doctor is rather selfish individual, going around doing what he wants, picking people up as if they were strays and then dumping them, as Sarah says in School Reunion. He was a traveler, an adventurer and basically immortal. Of course he always did so, because people would always inevitably leave him.
And when you say it was a rather experimental series, I think you nailed it. The central theme is basically a "What if..." scenario. What if the Doctor finally found someone that he connected so deeply that maybe the idea of settling down wasn't so bad after all? School Reunion and The Girl in the Fireplace show the usual endings of why this never happens. A companion that was infatuated with the Doctor, but gets left behind and a lover that is outlived by him. Would Rose become one or the other? At the same time, it's played as an impossibility because they are just SO GOOD together! They will certainly have a happy ever after won't they?
The other episodes either emphasize their synergy and their growing love for each other (New Earth, Tooth and Claw, The Idiot's Lantern, The Impossible Planet, The Satan Pit) or reinforces the idea that, in the end, there IS a special someone out there for everyone and place where you truly belong (Rise of the Cybermen, The Age of Steel, Fear Her, Love & Monsters).
Until reality comes crashing down on them. The worst fears of the Doctor come through, he can never be with Rose. The emotional impact is so great that he burns a whole star just to see her off.For so many episodes, they show how the Doctor just cares for the unknown, for the thrill. What does it matter if people die, if calamity strikes? He is having fun, being challenged, being threatened. Now, there is someone who is just like him! Other companions usually have something or someone they are still attached to, but Rose decides that it doesn't matter, her place is and always will be with the Doctor. And in the face of humanity extinction, after defeating two incredibly powerful enemies, one of them being so deeply connected to the Doctor's past, he doesn't even acknowledge it. The only thing he cares about, in the end, is Rose.
That broke it down perfectly!
Jodie Whittaker never cares about Rose when Jack mention her.
THIS.
Wow. You actually gave me a new prespective on the series here. Don't get me wrong. I do wish some of this had been delved into deeper. like girl in the fireplace i wish the doctor and rose had spoken about it after (or at least have it acknowledged that it was left unspoken between them) and i thnk the fact RTD wrote less of the main series did make it suffer in terms of overall coherence but I still really respect more now the ideas presented and how they delved into the relationship perhaps more than i realised!
The RTD era is my favourite of modern Doctor Who, and Series 2 has always been my fav series. 10 & Rose are also my fav Doctor and companion. I don't think it's objectively the best, but I just love this series so much. Really enjoying your Doctor Who reviews btw.
Sooo he’s saying season 2 was bad and the season 5 episodes were mediocre.
Aight imma head out
he's right tho
Did you watch this video at all? He didn't say the series was bad, he even praises it. Pay attention.
The only series of its format I'll say which has 3 really strong two-parters. One of my favourites because I love Ten and I love Rose (#1 doctor and #1 companion), and it's one of the series which is most coated in nostalgia for me (I watched S1 as it aired but was too young to really remember, so S2 is the first series I fully remember watching as a kid). It also has my overall favourite story of the show as a whole in The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit. :D
It's also kinda responsible for launching both the spin-offs
3 two-parter?
Oh Yeah.
Rose deserves more praise. If we count her good stories at least half hold up. Series 1 and bits of Series 2 Rose were good and why don't we like that?
Yeah.
MrDalekEmperor2 she’s literally a teenager though, would be terrible if she was written as miss perfect
MrDalekEmperor2 and? She’s still young. she’s poor, she’s dating an equally poor mechanic with a future not really going anywhere. And then she meets the doctor, a young girl whisked away by this romantic hero of course she’s going to fall in love, she’s conflicted, she comes from nothing, she’s been exposed to the wonders of the universe and grows as a person and Mickey is a reminder of the life where she had nothing. The life where she was stuck in a shop, eating chips, living with her mum. She betters herself with the Doctor and is reluctant to let Mickey travel with them at first but then look how devastated she is when he leaves in age of steel. She has character growth and would be terrible as a companion if she was completely perfect
@MrDalekEmperor2 She was 23 by the time of "New Earth," if you assume she was with the Ninth Doctor for about a year and a half, and treat many of the New Series Adventure novels of the Ninth and Tenth Doctor continuities as canon.
I suppose it really depends on what you look for in a series. Series 2 was my absolute favourite at the time for the exact reasons you disliked it. I was a young child, and the change from one doctor to the next was jarring, Rose accepting him at the end of The Christmas Invasion reassured me that the show was still the Doctor Who I fell in love with. On top of that, the stability of 10 and Rose's relationship gave a safety to the show that made it palatable to me, and overall less frightening, added with the fact that the romantic relationship development between 10 and Rose was what I tuned in for, far more than the actual action. As an adult I can see that a romantic arc isn't exactly great character development, particularly for your female lead but at the time, it was what would hold my attention most. The companion has always been the audiences way in to the Doctor's psyche, which is perhaps why a young man would see Mickey as far more of a draw, and why as a young girl I would identify strongly with Rose, and invest deeply in her relationship with the Doctor.
Obviously these are the rosey observations of a little girl, however, I think the broad appeal to more of the population than simply the sci-fi junkies is what actually made the show as successful in the modern era as it was.
Every time you say “the fanbase thinks X about Y” I always feel like maybe I don’t know my own fanbase as well as I thought 😂 Loved series 2, David Tennant and Billie Piper, and the other companions given more light in the series.
no seriously I've seen so many people say they love ten rose
One of the few good things 2020 has brought is love and monsters finally getting more appreciation
I'm sorry. But what do people actually find enjoyable about that episode. Seems people who like it , like it for the purpose of being edgy or different rather than actually liking the episode.
@@callumbliss3731 I like it because it’s funny, it doesn’t take itself too seriously and gives Jackie some great material. I always loved it, nobody gives a fuck about being edgy, they just like different stories to you.
I feel like Billie and David’s BRILLIANT acting makes up for the second series being a bit weaker. (Seriously BRILLIANT)
As far as Rose and Ten having less conflict than Rose and Nine as well as David’s more human portrayal of the Doctor, I would argue that though yes these two are still the Doctor with memories from previous incarnations, they are two completely different people. As it’s been said when the Doctor regenerates every single atom in his body changes meaning genetics, how the Doctor looks, acts, how he handles different situations. Everything about him literally changes. If you think about that, the fact that Ten and Rose didn’t have as many conflicts as they did in his previous life makes sense since he’s technically an entirely different person than his ninth incarnation was. Yes Tens darker side does come out from the burden of his past incarnations and anything they’d done (*cough* Timewar *cough*) but it still makes sense for Ten to act in a Completely different way than Nine did.
(Sorry if that was confusing I’m not great at explaining things)
It made sense to me.
Don’t think I’ve ever met a Doctor Who fan that doesn’t love series 2?
You have now. And I’ve been a fan since the eighties. Until Chibnell.
It's my least favorite of the David Tennant era, but I still enjoy it.
I get that tension in relationships can make for great stories but I find it really nice for them to get on so well, the tension came from micky being there and the doctor being drawn to help other women.
Series 2 has aged well. I say that having watched it in the last four weeks.
Really like the video, but I must be living in different circles. Do people not like Rose and Tennant? Was it divisive? In general, I felt Series 2 and their relationship really hooked the fan base. I do agree with a lot of what you've said, but I wasn't under the impression it was a broadly held opinion.
I mean I thought series 2 was fine, but I’ve never gotten the hype around Rose and 10
Depends on the audience. I'm pretty sure the romance they introduced was to appeal to the female demographic. It worked for them, but more strictly sci-fi fans didn't like it as much, especially since historically it wasn't something that happened (until that really bad 1996 movie).
I love how your honest about the show. Too many people automatically say 10 is perfect and so were his episodes.
9 and 12 are god tier
Because it's true, David Tennant was and is the perfect Doctor.
BrakeStop defo not
@@tristansteinbomer3256 obviously you've never seen much of the classic show. The only perfect Doctor is 4 no one else comes close except maybe McGann or Capaldi
@@ghstudios5087 that's ur opinion but mine is that 10 is the best doctor and 12 is in 2nd place.
Tom Baker is a good doctor but not so much if compared to Mcgann.
I find it strange that so many fans who hate the Doctor's romance with Rose aren't half as annoyed by River Song. Not sure if Harbo falls into this category or not, but I see it from fans all the time and it baffles me. Sure, Ten and Rose had this giddy teen "first love" feeling to their romance that could be annoying as an older viewer. But I can forgive it as Rose is literally nineteen years old, and Ten is a new regeneration who, as Harbo says, has finally started to heal from the Time War, and who just has a more goofy, upbeat disposition in general. The romance itself can be embarrassing but it's built on some solid characterisation.
I never felt that way about the Doctor and River. Eleven didn't feel like himself around her, Ten and River completely lacked chemistry, and River's dynamic with Twelve was diluted by his quasi-romantic relationships with Clara and Missy. She ended up feeling like a Madam du Pompadour, being portrayed as a great love of the Doctor's life in the episodes she appeared in but seeming not to matter or exist beyond them.
The difference in fan reaction to the two relationships is really odd.
Oh, I started to dislike River with every appearance after Forest of the Dead. Definitely not a fan of her romance with The Doctor
@@HarboWholmes Yeah, I never really understood why River and the Doctor had to be a romance in the first place, if I'm being honest. They would have worked just as well as a friendship, especially when she is later revealed to be Amy's daughter. (Making it a friendship would have removed a lot of the creep factor too. He held her as a baby! Why would you include that!?)
It's a shame because Alex Kingston is a great actor and the central conceit of a character meeting the Doctor "out of sync" with his timeline is incredible. Such a great idea! I just wish it had been executed better.
But the romance in season two is definitely something a lot of fans criticise while not seeming to find the River / Doctor stuff to be a forced romance at all. To which I come over all Tenth Doctor "What? What? What??" Doctor Who fandom can be bizarre sometimes.
@@HarboWholmes Same here, on all counts.
Your forced generalisation stinks. There are many fans out their that don't like Doctor's romance with River either, you can literally find them any where. Some find River annoying just like the way someone could find Rose annoying. Although, some may give The Doctor/River more leeway probably bcoz she wasn't a teenager like Rose and reached well into her 200s or bcoz she was a time travelling intellectual like him...I dunno.
10 and River having chemistry wouldn't make sense anyways, the dude met her for the first time and didn't know who tf she was lol. Also not every Doctor/companion relationship is romantic. 12 wasn't romantic with Clara but he was very close to her - it was platonic. Missy and 12 being romantic is a big oversimplification, the Doctor/Master relationship is far too complex for humans to understand, the roots of their relationship goes back to when they were kids on Gallifrey.
@@cja5612 What? What false generalization? That a lot of Whovians who hate the Ten and Rose pairing like River and the Doctor? They do. I never said EVERYONE who hates the pairing falls into this category. Just that these fans exist and they confuse me. What are you so offended about? It seems like you don't like either of them, so I can't imagine how you would take my criticism personally.
10 and River having chemistry would make perfect sense, even if they just met. Sexual chemistry isn't dependent on how long or how well you know someone. It's just there or it isn't. And in the case of Ten and River, I personally felt it wasn't.
Obviously every companion the Doctor has isn't romantic. I call the Clara and Missy relationships QUASI romantic because it's a fact that both those pairings had a fanbase, and Moffat would occasionally throw both sides a bone by invoking a romantic trope in a platonic setting. Which had the unfortunate effect of confusing the issue. Just google the ship names, if you somehow managed to exist in Doctor Who fandom all these years without realising this.
Moffat even ship-baited with Amy and Eleven. Repeatedly. Remember when the cold open of A Good Man Goes To War tried to make you think Amy had just had the Doctor's baby? Or how Moffat teased the same thing when Amy wouldn't tell Rory she was pregnant in the season six opener? It was a deliberate misdirect on both occasions, but it was obvious what Moffat wanted his audience to think.
Personally I prefer a platonic Doctor / companion relationship. But I'm not blind to the way Moffat plays around with the issue.
A bit of constructive criticism: I understand your reluctance to use any audio from the show, you don’t want to get hit with any copyright strikes or anything, but your point about the music being overpowering doesn’t work if you don’t show any examples. As you were talking about it I was thinking “huh, I’ve never noticed that, I wonder which scenes he’s referring to” and now I still don’t know which scenes you were referring to because you didn’t give a single example. Even if you’re not willing to play the clips, you need to at least mention which scenes it’s particularly bad in. In any form of essay, written or video, you can’t just make claims without providing any examples as evidence. If you don’t backup your claims, you’re just asking the audience to assume they’re true because you said so.
If you can’t show any examples due to copyright, then you should have just left out the music part altogether.
i also still wonder which scenes he was referring to because i really havent ever noticed it xD
as someone who grew up with Season 2 but has no strong memory of Season 1, I always despised Rose as a character and couldn't understand why she was so beloved. But now that I'm actually re-watching all of Season 1 from the start, she really does seem like a totally different character, and I actually LIKE her - she has personality, gets scared but is also brave and smart, isn't rude or dismissive to anyone who isn't the Doctor, actually challenges the Doctor, stands up for herself, and immediately attempts to connect with the people she meets on their adventures, showing her human compassion and genuinely caring for them. Rose of Season 2 seems to care about nothing BUT the Doctor, which is not how a companion should be.
We are at the end already! How time files! Its martha time!
And donna
@@The12thDoctor That's next series, we shouldnt get ahead of ourselves
@@greglinks And then Amy
Severus Snape dont forget Ryan and yaz
@@garylouk8776 bill potts, clara, rory, river
So I actually loved series 2 and the lovey dovey relationship between the doctor and rose, my only critique is that girl in the fireplace doesn't fit in the context of the series and should have been in series 3.
Not sure I agree with your take on the ideal characterisation for Rose in S2! Personally I find I get really impatient with seasons where the companion isn't sure whether or not to trust the Doctor.
Rory mistrusted the Doctor for most of Vampires in Venice, and I don't think I could have stood it beyond that. Donna mistrusted him during the Runaway Bride, but I much preferred their tight knit friendship of S4. Martha clashed with the Doctor often, and is probably the companion who formed the least enduring bond with him as a result. It definitely damaged their friendship, making incidents like the Osterhagen Key possible but preventing you from feeling like they were as truly close as other companions.
And I hated the Moffat Doctor's tendency to lie to his companions "for their own good". It felt so disrespectful. So you think something's happening with your friend's body where she may or may not be pregnant . . . and you don't tell HER about it? Who does that? It's the same with Clara and her past incarnations. Instead of respecting her and letting her in on a mystery which directly concerns her, the Doctor says nothing and the writing starts telling us "the Doctor lies". Which . . . well yeah, but there are lies and there are lies. That never felt like an authentic way for the Doctor to treat his friends. Hiding things about his own past is one thing, hiding information about his companions bodies is another.
Maybe it's the fact that this attitude and the jerkface "the Doctor lies" characterisation was such a huge part of the Moffat era. Maybe I'm just burnt out on seeing companions who can't trust him. But one episode of doubt is enough for me, these days.
Oh I definitely hate the whole 'Doctor lies' thing too. It annoys me every time they mention it. The whole 'rUlE oNe: ThE dOcToR LiEs' thing got so frustrating. But I do like when the show explores companion reactions to regeneration in depth, because it makes sense to. It's not something you could easily accept if your friend just became an entirely different person in front of your eyes, regardless of whether they're an alien
@@HarboWholmes Absolutely. The fact that some later era companions don't seem to bat an eyelid at his regenerations never rang true to me. There's a moment in s6 where you realise Amy and Rory know all about the Doctor's ability to regenerate and he's filled them in offscreen about all kinds of things, and I just remember feeling so cheated by that. Like, why would you rob us of the chance to see their reactions? It would be like bringing a companion on and not bothering to show their first step into the TARDIS.
Sometimes I do wish the production model for Doctor Who was a bit different, with more oversight to the writers or with an American style writers room to hash out ideas. There are so many frustrating oversights and unexplored avenues across ALL the seasons of NuWho.
The Doctor didn't need to tell Amy anything. She first revealed she was pregnant, she later said she wasn't. We later see that this was a ganger of Amy that wasn't consistently registering the pregnancy. So blaming the Doctor for not telling a flesh ganger is silly lmao.
The Doctor also tells Clara about how he met her Dalek and Victorian incarnations in "Journey to the centre of the TARDIS". She said the Doctor was scaring her by telling her those things and she denied that any of them were her. Obviously you forgot those clear points in the episodes.
Also "The Doctor lies" is a reference to the magnificent 7th Doctor who also was steps ahead and wanted to make sure he knew what he was heading to. The Doctor doesn't always lie but when he does, it's for a good reason. He has no obligation to tell them everything
@@cja5612 The Doctor absolutely should've told Amy what was happening with her. He didn't know she was a ganger all along - he only suspected that, and didn't know for sure until the The Rebel Flesh two-parter. He himself tells us this.
That's MONTHS after he first noticed the pregnant / not pregnant signal. Months Amy has been spending locked up in a tiny cell on the other side of the universe. He just left her there, all that time. No urgency? The truth is the characterization is poor here. The only reason the Doctor lets the situation go on for so long is that Moffat wanted him to only find Amy after she'd given birth. He wanted a season of Amy doing normal companion stuff right up until the big shock and body horror of "OMG SHE'S PREGNANT AND SHE'S GIVING BIRTH RIGHT NOW!" And to accomplish that he sacrificed the Doctor's character. You can defend that if you want. I don't.
So what if Amy was a ganger, by the way? It was established that Amy's ganger thought and felt just like the real Amy. When he talks to ganger!Amy he's basically having a long distance phone call with the real Amy. What's the worst that happens if he tells her? Kovarian wouldn't have killed Amy if the plan was discovered ahead of time. It seems to me like the only negative consequences would be for Kovarian's side. Amy could have been found and rescued months earlier, and her baby kept safe. Why wait until literally the most inconvenient time possible to effect a rescue? It's dumb.
And it's disrespectful to Amy not to tell her about something that's happening with her own body. So what if she told him she was pregnant and then told him she wasn't? Imagine you were friends with a real doctor, and you told him "I thought I had cancer but my symptoms stopped suddenly so I must not!" And he's looking at you and seeing other symptoms you haven't noticed, that suggest maybe you do have cancer after all. Doesn't that friend owe it to you to say "Look, I don't want to scare you, but I've noticed these other symptoms too and I think you need to get some proper testing. Immediately." Or would you think it was was fine if your doctor friend decided to just watch and wait for six months to see what happened?
Again - what difference would it have made if the Doctor had told Amy and Rory about the oscillating test result? Yes, they would've been worried about it. But they're grown adults, not little children who need to be protected from ever feeling anything complicated. Rory said it himself in 6.02 - Amy should've told him she thought she was pregnant. They're married, and that's their potential baby, and the whole point of being married is that you face stuff like that together.
@@cja5612 I didn't forget about the Doctor and Clara in Journey . But Clara isn't scared in that episode because of what the Doctor is telling her. She's scared because he's behaving like a complete creep and a lunatic. He doesn't sit down calmly and explain what he knows to her. He spends the whole episode glaring at her sideways, making vague threats and insinuations and blaming her. He acts as if she's keeping secrets from him deliberately and keeps demanding she tell him the truth, shouting in her face and shaking her by the shoulders. It's as if her friend has suddenly morphed into this paranoid madman. Clara has no idea why, and to cap it all off, their lives are in danger, and he seems like that's not his primary focus. Of course she's scared! Who wouldn't be?
But in most future episodes Clara is shown to be pretty level headed. She values her independence and it's important to her that she gets to make her own decisions. If the Doctor had approached her about this is a rational, respectful way, then yeah, maybe she would have been scared by the implications . . . but I think she would also have been compelled to discover the truth of the mystery. I think she would have risen to the challenge, not run away from it.
But again, we don't know. Because Moffat insisted on writing the Doctor as this compulsive liar who would rather keep secrets and patronize his companions even when it makes no sense for him to do so.
Is...is it really a bad thing to have limited conflict among the protagonists? I understand conflict makes things interesting, but characterization shouldn't be sacrificed just because "it's interesting". This is the problem I have with the romances in Harry Potter, they're too dramatic and filled with conflict that makes the characters unlikeable or just plain irritating. Not to mention, Jackie remarks on Rose's change at the end, so her being more happy-go-lucky is in line with her character in this series. I do agree that Girl in the Fireplace needed to be placed differently, because it does interrupt the flow of the romance subplot. All in all, I don't understand why it's cool to hate the romance in the fandom. Fangirls may make it utterly ridiculous in their tumblr posts and fanfics, but it's hardly this egregious black mark everyone makes it out to be. Some say "he's always been asexual," to which I say, "Tell me how he has kids and a granddaughter if he's never had a sexual relationship." Some people bring up the age, but Arwen is around 2000 years old while Aragorn is 87 (and don't you dare bash Tolkien), Wolverine is way older than everyone in the X-Men, and stories about these immortals falling for a mortal have been around since time immemorial. Now, if you just don't like it, feel free. Everyone has likes and dislikes. But saying that it's out of character or creepy or ruins the series objectively is disingenuous and projecting. If you don't like it, fine, but not everyone who likes it is a teenage girl who's never watched Classic Who. I'm a guy in my early 20s, and I both watch and love Classic Who.
Absolutely agree with all of this, but would like to note that there's also nothing wrong with teenage girls loving the Ten/Rose relationship. There are many ways to be a fan of a thing, and you don't have to knock down one way to bring up another.
@@bookishtook I can see how that could be interpreted as denigrating all teen girls, and for that I apologize. My biggest point was that people tend to think that the only people who like that romance are teen girls on tumblr who don't know anything about romance. I grew up with girls who were very intelligent, and don't think they are all idiots (beyond the natural idiocy of adolescence that boys and girls both go through).
Rose is one of my favourite companions I grew up with David tenant every season the tenth doctor is in is just awesome. There isn't anything wrong with rose in season 2 it's all just soooooooo good
I've always had a soft spot for S2. it obviously has flaws but I personally find it a strong series and a better series than S3, to be honest.
Rose is my personal favourite companion in the RTD era, It felt like the others just weren't as fleshed out, most likely due to Rose having two series while Donna & Martha only had one, although the 10 & Rose relationship can get pretty cringey at times.
In my opinion, doctor who was built on seperate stories that are found together in a season. But that's how doctor who works: which planet will we see now- who's the monster- how will the doctor stop him/her.
Series 2 is underrated and gets too much hate, all 3 2 parters, school reunion, girl in the fireplace and love and monsters are all great episodes
Whattt?! People didn’t like season 2 with Rose?! She my fav 🥺
It’s interesting, the Series 2 Doctor is probably The Doctor at his happiest in New Who. Really, almost every other series of New Who, The Doctor is facing some dangerous, intense threat, or he’s coming out of some huge tragedy, or he’s going around being introspective and grumpy. The Series 2 Doctor on the other hand, is just a happy guy going on adventures with his girlfriend. It’s fine, but you can say that it’s less interesting. There’s little personal conflict in Series 2. That’s probably why people don’t like it. Happiness is boring.
Great vid as usual! I totally agree with the description of series 2 as having many good eps but being bland overall. I still really enjoy it though, out of nostalgia and also just simply enjoying 10 and Rose together (even if they are "blander" than 9 and Rose). Looking forward to your series 3 stuff, I feel I'll finally start to disagree with you a bit :)
I still don't get your obsession with the Girl in The Fireplace episode ... you're so quick to critique Rose and your expectations of how she should act around the new 10th Doctor...but you don't critique how the Doctor leaving his companions and Tardis on a spaceship is soo off character? Also how is Girl in the Fireplace a staple episode to the Season 2 plot? I agree that Tooth and Claw, School Reunion, and the Cyberman two parters are important...but GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE??? LMAOOO how does that episode contribute to the story arc?!?!
Agree with you
Finally someone said it!
Not sure why you think I'm 'obsessed' with it. I made a video about it, like I did about every other episode in the series and I give it equal footing here too. And yes, in my video about the episode, I do critique how The Doctor leaves Mickey and Rose on the ship. I can fetch the script and paste it here for you if you want. But you must have already seen it since you think I'm obsessed with the episode. Also, it is a staple episode for the series because it sets up his emotion at Rose's departure by establishing how he struggles with losing people he loves. And calling me delusional suggests you have a pretty low bar for someone being delusional, just saying.
Innit the only thing I can think off is that it’s mikeys first adventure and it shows how much he has grown but the cyber man 2 parter did that better
@@HarboWholmes Hey sorry about calling you delusional, I didn't mean it in a menacing way, I was joking. I respect your opinion and do value your content! I just have trouble seeing that episode being vital to the story arc. The Doctor always loses people, and I don't think he loves Reinette...he just feels guilty, and he moves on just like he does in every other episode...I think there are a lot of episodes throughout the series that showcases his emotional attachment to whenever he departures from Rose, we can even see it in the New Earth episode, when he gets upset about Cassandra taking over Rose's body. Russell T Davies actually tweeted the original episode order for season 2, and Girl in the Fireplace was supposed to be the first episode, but it was too risky of a plot for the first episode. If they followed that order, it might have actually made sense....
The Rise of the Cybermen is one of the best two parters I think, it really feels like a well crafted alternative universe movie, but the way it brings back Jackie and Pete, just so well done. RTD really was fantastic
Series 2 music: TOO MANY SCHOOL BELLS!!!! But you forget it because of the Cyberman theme and Doomsday.
Fun fact: the Abzorbaloff was actually designed by a child for a Blue Peter competition!
even more fun fact that child now has a popular youtube channel called channel pup
The Impossible Planet and Satan's Pit are two of my favorite episodes in Doctor Who
my issue with series 2 is that it has always felt a bit like a premature victory lap. In certain areas like Billie Piper's performance and RTD's writing you occasionally get a sense that they suddenly realised that they were "famous now" and that it impacts their performance
I don't really have a problem with the sound mix personally, and I can't believe it was mocked in a sketch show. I could hear the dialogue perfectly fine.
The Yorkshire Time Lord I can’t agree more!
Everyone knows the worst part of series 2 was that the Doctor Who figured designed a Destroyed Cassndra frame toy and sold it for way more money than it deserved 😁
LOL, I remember that! The Ashens channel did a review of it, it ended up in Poundland.
Where do you get your DW opinions from?! Who doesn’t like Series 2? I’ve never heard anyone say it was weak.
I unfortunately did, in some video about Doctor Who series ranked from worst to best. It's not surprising tho since series 11 was in the better half of the list...
If you look on the Doctor Who subreddit or even in some ranking made by fan, you'll see it's often considered as the weakest series from RTD era, and as one of the more bland series of Doctor Who
I don’t particularly enjoy about half of series 2, even though 10/Rose was my favourite pairing of the RTD era.
New Earth, Tooth and Claw, The Idiot’s Lantern, Love and Monsters, and Fear Her are all kinda bad in my opinion, and then The Christmas Invasion, the Cybermen two parter and even School Reunion are just kinda “good” rather than great.
I’d say it was definitely the weakest series until Chibnall came along, although series 7 comes close.
@@jacobcurle8964 the thing that makes series 7 better is the specials that came with it
The Girl in The Fireplace is my favourite Tennant episode. Was so strong & emotional.
That is really weird, I was just watching the Christmas Bride video.
there was character development though in the christmas invasion Rose had to do the doctors job and talk to the sycorax herself she miserably failed and got laughed at coz she was clearly making it up and stammering nervously however in doomsday she confronted the daleks herself and by talking was able to keep herself alive
I really love series 2, but I can see and agree with most of your criticisms. I agree that it doesn't feel as narratively tight as series one, but that doesn't dampen my love of it any less. I do, however, disagree with Rose being a "shadow" of her series one self. I felt like series one Rose was dipping her toes into the TARDIS waters and discovering who she was in that world, and it culminated with her finding her identity at the end of the series. Series two uses all of that build-up and growth and shows Rose more in her element, really taking charge in a lot of the episodes with less direction from The Doctor, because the confidence is now there that she was still discovering (and gaining) in the previous series. I think the slight lack of tension between her and The Doctor in this series is because they had built all of those blocks from series one and now function better as a unit. I personally think it was really important to see them working so well as partners for Rose's departure to hit as hard as it did, though I can see how some people would have preferred to have more conflict.
Series 2 will always have a special place in my heart as the first complete series of Doctor Who that I watched. I adore it, but I have to admit that it is the weakest of the RTD series.
I think that Rose and Ten's relationship is actually a nice contrast to other Doctor-companion relationships. They work as a great romantic couple, and it serves to better highlight the differences between Nine and Ten, and later between Rose and Martha. It also highlights the fact that The Doctor and his companion are not perfect, and are not meant to be perfect. Rose and Ten can sometimes come across as a bit cliquey and exclusive, but they are rightfully called out on it, and I personally enjoy how the series builds up this idea of the two almost being too perfect for each other - amplifying each other's worst tendencies and excluding other people from their clique. It's a very human dynamic, and creates interesting conflicts with the supporting characters, crucially being the driving force behind Mickey's departure.
Rose was the main problem imo
i would so rose and 10 was 1 problem the other problem was the standard of episodes.
Honestly Rose and the Doctor didn’t bother me that much in this season, they could definitely be a bit much at times but it was tolerable. My dislike of them is moreso a retroactive one since it always bothered me how the Doctor lead on and ignored Martha in series 3 because he was moping about Rose. So I’ll be interested in seeing your coverage of that relationship for your upcoming reviews!
Well I won't be talking about The Doctor being a dick to Martha too much in depth, since I've already made a video essay about it. I wouldn't want to repeat myself too much! But I will still be touching on it throughout the reviews
Harbo Wholmes That makes sense! Thanks for the content as always Harbo.
As an American, much more accustomed to episodic shows where only some of the episodes push directly into the season finale, I didn't overlook the more episodic nature of Series 2 so much as not find it problematic. As for both the Doctor and his relationship with Rose, both came out as exactly what I'd expect if Rose had a big influence on the Ninth Doctor through butting heads with him, which in turn is exactly what I'd expect from the man who just burned his entire race and is now questioning who he is and what it means to be The Doctor. Again, as an American, the things I expect to not be episodic are the influences of one season on the next one. That's where I look for development and that's where I saw it here.
People didn’t like season 2? I’ve never heard that before
I really didn't like it at the time, I honestly almost quit the show.
I do feel that season 2 is the weakest of the RTD era
Although I found this video interesting, I have to say that I disagree with the core concept. One of the greatest strengths of Doctor Who is it's ability to use a "adventure of the week" format without it getting old, due to the infinite number of locations, adversaries and situations that the premise allows for. After such a well constructed arc in the first series, I really enjoyed how series 2 allowed us to simply tag along with the Doctor and become attached to a new incarnation without all of the baggage a heady story arc would come with. Given the more standard arc structures of the following series, I think this may have been intentional as it establishes the unique tone of the new Who in every episode, building the universe instead of the characters. All of this said, I actually think series 2 was perfectly played to cement the universe and open the door for future series.
The Christmas Invasion 7/10
New Earth 6/10
Tooth & Claw 5/10
School Reunion 8/10
The Girl in the Fireplace 8/10
Rise of the Cybermen 8/10
The Age of Steel 7/10
The Idiot's Lantern 4/10
The Impossible Planet 8/10
The Satan Pit 8/10
Love & Monsters 3/10
Fear Her 2/10
Army of Ghosts 8/10
Doomsday 9/10
Overall 7/10
Pretty accurate
I always remembered Series 2 being ok, but when you look at every story as a collective you realise how average Series 2 really was
Really don't get the hate. Doctor likes falls in love with someone he's known for a whole previous lifetime..so what?
It was mostly the boomers who hated that they wanted companons who was only there to get captured like in classic who they never liked characters with personality like rose or Martha
@@Jackgames-vg7cw I'm not a boomer, and I dislike Rose because she had an unlikable character. You've obviously never seen classic if you think it's all female companions that no nothing except scream and get captured.
Blobfish well they do and yes I have apart from Sara Jane non of them had any personality and was only there for the monster
@@Jackgames-vg7cw So all the classic companions are female and no-one except Sarah Jane has any character and just gets captured all the time?
@@Jackgames-vg7cw Dude, if you think that, you are a moron that's obviously not watched classic and listened to Big Finish
It's a TV show meant for enjoyment. If you're watching and dislike it so much, watch something else.
Wait, so you're complaining that series two was episodic instead of serial? 🤨 You do realize that _Doctor Who_ has always been like that right, it's always been a hybrid of random multi-episode arcs without a main story for the whole series.
Thank you for mentioning the background music. I don't know what it is about the sound engineers, but I get so tired of trying to hear what people are saying over loud background music that I often just stop watching sometimes, even when the show is Doctor Who. You'd think that since they pay the actors so much money, they would want the audience to clearly hear what they are saying, but apparently sometimes they would rather hear the orchestra and sound effects than listen to wha tthe Doctor has to say.
I love all of the series under RTD, my favourites have to be Series 1 and Series 4
I can't believe what I'm hearing, people don't like series 2? People don't like rose? Series 2 is perfection it has a balance of everything. You say the doctor and rose have no chemistry followed by they get along to well. 🤔 the ending beach scene is brilliant and shows what they mean to each other. The fact he burns up the sun just to say goodbye. Guess you cant please everyone.
Nice to see some appreciation for Love and Monsters!
In my opinion, Series 2 is one of the best, if not the best series Whoniverse has ever produced.
I agree that Love & Monsters was a bit cliché, and Fear Her could've done with a few tweaks, but even those episodes were extremely good.
Personally, I don't understand how anyone would even consider Series 2 to not be as phenomenal as it totally was.
I love series 2, because it shows a more happy, hopeful and carefree docotr. Also his relationship with rose was a really big plus in that.
Tbh I think it was probably a good thing that Rose got used to the new Doctor after Christmas invasion to sell the concept of regeneration to a new audience. She's the only thing we had left that we knew and related to. While I'm not in love with their romantic pairing, I liked the through-line of them treating their adventures like games and being called out on it and for that to hit them in the finale.
And tbh Clara not accepting the new Doctor made it harder for me to get invested in their relationship. Especially when she's met other Drs before.
Yeahh, of all companions, Clara should be most on-board with regeneration, really. Well. Romana, I suppose, but second to her.
@@nightowl8477 Yeah I get why she'd find him abrasive cause of how he acts cause even the War Doctor seemed nicer but even when he's just changed she's going "this is wrong" and she said please don't change to 11.
@@Ben-vf5gk - I mean a companion witnessing and interacting with every incarnation of the Doctor should make for some pretty nuanced reactions to drastic change in someone you love. Instead it's just, "ew he's oLd." I get it, and it works, but do it with a different companion and a different Doctor. Even from Deep Breath, there's too many layers to 12 to reduce him to "the old one, like Hartnell but with sunglasses and porn jokes!"
@@nightowl8477 Especially considering we didn't get the glory of the sunglasses and porn jokes until his second series! And Clara being a teacher doesn't help the Hartnell comparisons!
@@Ben-vf5gk - *JOLLY GOOD S M A C K E D B O T T O M*
I mean I love series 2. I just think it perfectly establishes David tenants doctor. The series does put Rose in a difficult place. The companion is always the audience surrogate. To a lot of people this would’ve been their 1st regeneration, they would themselves not be sure if the new doctor works. Having the audience surrogate not sure about the doctor would just make the new viewers struggle to get used to a new doctor.
It’s definitely one of the weakest of the RTD era but I’ll always enjoy it due to it being probably the most nostalgic series of Doctor Who for me
I always liked season 2 with rose and the 10th doctor because they feel like they are "becoming a couple" in a none literal sense thus making the fact that they are ripped apart and she is constantly taunted by her lose the rest of the 10th doctors run
the problem with series 2 is not that its bad its a good series its just that its the series after series 1 and was not as good as series 1 in terms of quality of episodes.
series 2 has episodes like
new earth
tooth and claw
the idiots lantern
love and monsters
and fear her
And those are still really good to watch not the greatest but still a solid 7/10
@@Jackgames-vg7cw they are not terrible but compared to series 1 they are not as good, it was going to be hard to do a series as good as series 1 but it was a very good attempt the other problem was rose and 10, i would give series 1 10/10 and series 2 a 7 or 8 /10
Tooth and claw, idiots lantern and love and monster are solid episodes
BrakeStop yes there fun adventures not brilliant but solid
@@mrsamuelwatson12 not as good as series 1 episodes though
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Taking the Doctor and Rose's relationship aside, I still liked Series 2. There were others I liked better, sure, but I feel like a lot of the kinda forgettable episodes get a lot more flack then I think they deserve. Like, Fear Her was bad, but it had its moments, the Wire episode was honestly my least favorite of the series, despite liking the location and overall theme, and I still like Tooth and Claw, so idk, maybe I'm just weird. However, you are right, it did feel kinda, disjointed, especially when comparing it to other series in the show's lineup.
Side note: As someone who lives in the states and having to download these episodes the day after they aired, because they didn't really air here until Series 5, I'm glad even with clearer quality people noticed how loud the music was.
1:26 That wasn't even the first time he appeared in Doctor Who. I think his first appearance was in Colditz as part of the Big Finish main range.
He was also in Scream of the Shalka
And held the lead role in big Finish's dalek empire spinoff up until his casting as the doctor
@@HarboWholmes I had a vague recollection of hearing about that but wasn't sure.
@@KurtVersaie321 didn't know Dalek Empire came out before New Who.
Who has an issue with season 2.. I have never heard this?!
I think the theme of series two is how the Doctor can change someone
I mean, it's obvious for Rose because of series 1, but we also have Mickey who stopped being an idiot and was changed, Jackie and Pete found each other, we have Sarah Jane Smith who just can't have a normal life because of the Doctor, and that's also the case of Madame de Pompadour and Elton Pope.
Yes, that's my take on it too. And for the Doctor, it's the first time we really see the burden of knowing he won't be changed in the same way.
He won't grow old or settle down or die. The audience is slowly made aware of the life he can't have through the themes of each episode. In School Reunion it's a long term relationship. In GITF it's aging at the same speed as someone else. In Fear Her it's fatherhood. And finally it's romantic love with Rose. In The Satan Pit it looks for a while as if they'll have to settle down and live a normal life together - but fate intervenes. In Doomsday she's stripped away from him for good, but the whole series has been toying with this idea of loss and separation for the two. It comes up in almost every single episode. I don't think that's an accident.
The Girl in Fireplace is a quite good story, but as a standalone. My pet peeves is it kinda ruined the supposedly growing romance tension between Tenth and Rose - like existing in a wrong slot. Probably why I always like Ninth/Rose better.
I also think Series 2 got more dislikes because the comparison with series after that. Series 4 is the best, Donna is much loved. And fans still got annoyed with how good Martha could be if she got better characterisation - not to mention her series got some of the best episode in the era.
When I look back this always my favourite series as I grew up and was doctor who mad at this point
Woa already at Series 2...the sheer quality of your channel is just fantastic.
Keep it up! Looking forward to Series 204 Review!
Episodes in series 5 range from decent to amazing imo
In series 2 its more like terrible to amazing
Series 2 is really great and way better than any of the post-RTD series
If Rose was the worst companion, Jackie was the best mom.
Jackie is an icon.
What was that sketch called you mentioned at 11:44 ?
Donna and Martha are better characters but the Rose and 10 dynamic gives me the most fluttery butterflies. So that’s what sells the series for me. I can’t help it, I think they’re endlessly precious.
It's that very preciousness that puts some fans off, myself included I must say. I find plenty of good things in Series 2, but the Ten/Rose relationship isn't one of them. Turning the centuries-old, alien Doctor into a love-lorn puppy crushing on a teenager still feels a bit off to me :)
@@ftumschk I can respect that. If we’re just going off logic, it doesn’t make much sense. But I don’t really care? It’s funny, because any other time they’ve gone for a romance with a companion I haven’t liked it one bit actually. This is the exception. And supernatural age gaps never really bother me anyway. The existence of a centuries old being is way too far beyond our understanding of mortality and the like, so I tend to see the Doctor as being whatever age they appear as for all intents and purposes. But again: I get when it’s too much for people to swallow, I really do.
@@bespectacledheroine7292 I'm pleased that the Ten/Rose relationship works for so many others, don't worry! I've been following Doctor Who for just over half a century, and one of the things I truly love about the show is its ability to appeal to a wide range of tastes... albeit not always at the same time :)
@@ftumschk I love old and new Who equally (For different reasons of course), and love how doing so connects me to fans from all walks. Maybe if I’d grown up with the classic series I’d be a little more critical of some of these decisions, but given that the 9 and 10 period of the show was my introduction to one of my favorite universes, I turn a blind eye to the flaws of these eras.
I thought series 2 was absolutely great one of my favourites. I just cannot understand why others did not appreciate it so much. I watched every episode of new Who again during lockdown and I enjoyed it much less once Rory and Amy left.
The problem with this series is that David Tennant pushes the limits of how great his Doctor is with each series. Once you get to series 4, it’s hard to revisit this one and not feel a little let down.
Idk what you are talking about with this. Most of the episodes of this season were among the best of all the new Who episodes and David Tenant pretty much is Doctor Who as far as I'm concerned. Also, I've not been overly fond of Doctor Who having the season build up to some threat towards the end of the season, I've always preferred episodes that were one off, that just focus on the adventure, rather than feeling like something had to happen. I feel like those episodes really played into the Doctor being a wanderer at heart, someone who wasn't out looking to save the world but someone who would not turn his back on people who needed help if he encountered them.
The Christmas Invasion is definitely one of my favourite episodes in it. Series 2 is one I prefer over series 3
Although Series 2 was a mixture of scattered episodes as opposed to the Series 1 package, as you say at 16:54, I think that helps writers see and understand the difference between the two series and help them decide how they want to create their stories. The same can be said about how each story arc's setup of Bad Wolf, Torchwood, Saxon etc. have different ways of being presented, regardless of how good or bad it helps from a learning perspective.
After all, variety is the spice of life.
I thought I'd have to defend 10 and Rose, but I see plenty of commenters have done so already
I sort of disagree on Series 2 having loads of incredible episodes. To me the Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit and The Girl in The Fireplace are the only great episodes. School Reunion has some amazing character interactions especially between Sarah Jane Smith and the Doctor but the overall plot feels kinda weak. Army Of Ghosts/Doomsday is good, but we barely get to see the Daleks fighting the Cybermen and it largely depends on how much you like Rose In Series 2 whether you love the finale or not. Plus to be honest, Series 2 Rose pales in comparison to her Series 1 counterpart like you said.
The rest of the episodes range from bad-okay for me. Still really enjoyed the video though.
I feel similar, I feel for every good episode in season 2 there is an equally bad episode in seaason 2
You pretty much sum up my feelings for series 2. Series 2 is inferior if we're comparing it to series 1 and Rose becomes one dimensional love interest in series 2 which is a shame as I thought she was excellent in series 1.
@@manis1551 No kidding, I got so used to disliking Rose that I was surprised at how much I actually liked her in Series 1 upon a rewatch.
I prefer it to Series 3, which has a pretty disappointing finale.
There is only one reason I hate season 3, that can only be explained in one word...
Martha.
She's a snotty stuck up brat. When the doctor took her to new new(x15) York Martha threw a fit because The Doctor took Rose there once.
When Captain Jack was celebrating that Rose was alive, Martha rolled her eyes and mumbled some mean stuff about Rose. When Martha actually met Rose, she was nothing but a jerk to her.
Atleast Rose and Sarah Jane became friends after their argument.
Also let's not forget Martha left the doctor and joined UNITS military defenses team or whatever, and guess what UNIT likes to use. Lots of guns and the doctor hates guns, Martha knows that but she don't care. I'm so upset Martha took up 3 episodes of season 4! That was Donna's time to shine, not stuck up Martha!!!!!!