Links: - On Thursday, April 18th at 7 pm, I will present at Maliotis Cultural Center on "The Icons of Holy Week". Get your $15 tickets on Eventbrite today: www.eventbrite.com/e/the-icons-of-holy-week-a-talk-by-jonathan-pageau-tickets-835903900067 - Direct and most affordable place to get Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Patitsas: www.stnicholaspress.net/ethics-of-beauty - A complimentary patron-only video about the Jesus Prayer that you can watch: th-cam.com/video/aPyanmXxpaQ/w-d-xo.html
46:53 beauty is capacity to bear one’s cross. that’s why we love it. the strong man is beautiful because of his capacity to work and protect. the wear and tear is the difficult reality of our world but was not meant before we left the paradise. Dr Pete
Hello, I have a random question) I'm just interested what do you think about John's Truby four corner opposition method? Does it align with the traditional storytelling?
Has cinema change epistemology? I was born in 1952 in a Ukrainian peasant community. My parents first house had a dirt floor. I do not watch movies or tv. I do not understand the appeal. I find most movies entirely predictable.
And this from Dostoyevsky's The Adolescent: "I stopped studying precisely out of fanaticism: it was as if a lack of education added beauty to the ideal. Now I've changed my convictions at this point; education doesn't hurt...(but) can it be that independence of mind, even the least bit of it, is so painful for you? Blessed is he who has his ideal of beauty, even if it's a mistaken one!"
I had a 3 month break between jobs 2 years ago. I read McGilchrist's The Matter with Things every day and only just got through it before my next job started - but it was worth it. A life changing work.
Beauty is literally the glory of God, it is an image of fullness of purpose, so yes, it is "symmetry adapted to particularity", but it's more than that, it is the perceived image of the fittedness of both. In that sense it is a fractal of a fractal, it is participation in God recognizing participation in God, and enriched by that participation. It is the joy of the Holy Spirit at the love between the Father and the Son, and so of the Father seeing the love between the Holy Spirit and the Son, and the Son seeing the love between the Father and the Holy Spirit. It is perceiving the non-competiting love of God, as well as it is the veneration and worship, it is the act of building the Kingdom of heaven within. Beauty is the map to the participation in the energies of God.
Yes! Dr Patitsas’ book has been life transforming for us, as much as the Symbolic World has. Can’t wait for this. The Ethics of Beauty goes far to teach healing for our maladies in the modern west. Now if only one could buy it for less than an arm and a leg…😅
Actually the $50 price isn’t bad since it’s like 3 books in 1. Lively, profound and fun…not the normal experience when reading ethics or theology. i lik this guy…. a serious Christian thinker with a sense of humor
Its really funny that when I was taking the required literature classes in college, we read Jane Jacobs. But instead of attributing the death of american architecture to science, our discussions in class usually centered around economic and political reasons. Nothing about science or religion was mentioned.
I have done a series of paintings of micro organisms which thrive on their sensual relation to their immediate environment ( light, water, food )....and it was an intuitive expression of elemental beauty of life.....the underlying drive could be deemed relational...eros....
There is a condition called 'Stendhalt syndrome', (I don't think it is considered legit in academic circles) It is based upon the experience of the French/German writer while he was travelling through Italy. He had seen Venice, Milan, and Verona, and by the time he got to Firenze, he found himself in a swooning fever after witnessing so many marvels of beauty, the towering cathedrals, the astounding craftmanship of renaissance painting, sculpture, architecture, stonework, music and litrrature. He had quite literally 'overdosed'on beauty, and his body and mind were shutting down, he just couldn't take it!! Thus we have an incapacitating illness called the 'Stendhalt syndrome' that is a result of experiencing too much beauty, be it man-made wonders or tbe vistas of nature, perhaps there is only so much we can actually handle in a short period of time, or if it us an unnaturally prolonged exposure!! I guess the only antidote might be to spend a few days in Detroit or Minneapolis and one will start feeling alert and functioning in no time!!
Very interesting conversation! We have seen the dangers of when the church doubles down and doesn’t understand Beauty and relationship here and it becomes about utility first and foremost. I would love to see more conversations about that.
"When we encounter in a relationship that the other person is unwilling, or unable or psychologically unready to bear even the smallest cross for us, that's really sad, that's much harder. Then we realize that we've got to up our game, that we've got to carry more crosses for the life of the world and stop trying to be so "pretty" and focus on being beautiful, or on being good and letting the beauty come out of that. " TP 45:13-50 Thank you! I really needed to hear this today.
Jonathan, I admire your work… You’re doing a great job, to be honest. The work that you were doing resonates a lot with what I'm trying to do., which is helping people and showing the incredible energy of the holy spirit. Is there any way you can direct me through the sacred movement you were saying at Ralston College? Timestamp 56:36. I would love to be part of it.
Love that he brought up the death and life of great American cities! Christians need to be leading the way on creating beautiful and walkable communities with lots of third places, yet so many on the right see it as some sort of conspiracy (including JBP) 🤦🏻
People pointing to a “conspiracy” may be talking about so-called 15-minute cities as pushed by WEF, UN published agendas (not conspiracies). Being pleasantly walkable and bike-able is only the veneer, the intent is surveillance and people not having freedom of movement, part of the “you will own nothing and you will be happy” plan.
Very interesting conversation! At the end, two colleges were brought up: Raulston & Hellenic College. As a someone living in Europe, Germany, who has been listening to your videos for a few years now & is interested in symbolic thinking and the ancient world, I'd love to know whether any similar universities/colleges, that anyone is aware of, exist in Europe.
This was appropriately beautiful; thank you Jonathan and Dr. Patitsas for your richly beautiful, good and true work. I particularly loved the connection made between McGilchrist's sequence of right >left>right movement of the brain hemispheres that he goes into with the sequence of the transcendentals. I would love to see Dr. Patitsas talk to DC Schindler, who has been a great influence on me in relation to these topics, and shares the same beauty > goodness > truth paradigm, while also writing brilliantly on a proper understanding of freedom in contrast to the deficient predominant models.
From Bulgakov's The Bride of the Lamb: "...so the creaturely world of temporal being had the unity of time and eternity, becoming eternity. The latter has neither a temporal beginning nor a temporal end, for eternity is capable of being reflected only in the entire fullness of temporality, and not in its separate parts. Therefore, it requires endlessness , which has beginninglessness as it's counterpart." Just saying...the "essential antinomy" is in asymmetrical union of all distinctives where each piece of the puzzle is an odd and unique shape as expression of the self-sufficient Whole.
if im not mistaken plato's allegory of the cave was correctly used by timothy patitsas - the idea is that reality is comprehended through a glass dimly, the shadows being a crude approximation if not a presently incomprehensible allegory of base reality in and of themselves. Jonathan's idea that the shadows are a ladder to revelation is profound, and makes a point, but should be careful not to miss the point of what the allegory aims to imply.
Yes I came to comment this same thing but you caught it already. I found Jonathan’s comment on the cave to completely the point of the allegory, which certainly holds truth and does accurately describe reality for human beings. We certainly wouldn’t want Christian icons to be equated with the shadows in Plato’s cave! Quite the opposite
I gathered that JP was trying to transform the implied duality of the allegory (illusion vs. reality) by positing that it's actually a hierarchy of reality/beauty/glory from the top to the bottom. Like you said, it's a ladder.
@@cdubs406 yeah I got that, and it's a great take - i like the paradigm he filters everything through - but - plato's cave is also shorthand in modern parlance for misinterpretation of data by way of ignorance of higher order.
"Beauty as the symmetry of the particular" sounds more like a synthetic attempt to iron out all the dissimilar mysteries of pattern so that outsiders, insiders, monsters and contradiction are washed out onto the flat planes of predictability and epistemology. McGilchrist is anything but a simple symmetric where the genius of his gospel is found in the point where contradiction is mediated, not sifted through gnostic derivatives of the new and improved. God is a vast imbalance to the human. Heaven is overwhelmingly beyond the earthly capacity. Love is far more powerful than hate. Goodness is. Evil is not. Everything has always been. Nothing has never started. The imbalance is what the Logos mitigates and intervenes on our behalf: the horror of hell and the terror of heaven, with the earth and its' Cross in-between. All shall be saved and only nothing is destroyed in the fires of idolized sameness.
Beautiful stuff, but I do not think beauty is a shortcut to e.g. evaluating one farming style against another. A solar-powered desalination plant might look ugly, technical, inelegant, etc, but be a wise font of life nevertheless
At about 3:50 into it and visions of Plato's cave, film and story bring the painting by allegorist Mark Tansey, A Study for Discarding the Frame to mind and this quote from Tansey, "I think the painted picture as an embodiment of the very problem that we face with the notion of 'reality'. The problem or question is, which reality? In a painted picture, is it the depicted reality, or the reality of the picture plane or the multidimensional reality the artist and viewer exist in? That all three are involved points to the fact that all pictures are inherently problematic."
Jonathan, off topic,, I believe that you have the skill and ability to create an original insignia, that could then become an official flag to be flown on all government institutions of authority, in local, provincial and federal levels... Through deep prayer with God the Almighty, through Jesus Christ and the most Holy Spirit,,, this insignia would first honor God(Just Authority), secondly reflect Jesus Christ (Only Truth and Saviour), and thirdly reflect the Holy Spirit (Works and Service),, and lastly with a literal scripting of human (mind, body, soul)... The only suggestion I would offer,, is that the base of the canvas should be in a deep purple, with all four outer edges trimmed with gold... If this flag should ever come to be,,, more of it's intended purpose will be revealed to you in due time... God Bless you brother with Peace and Love unto you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Amen,amen...
What was the word that was used for the devil? Was it evolvos? “To separate” And then another word used for symbolism. I couldn’t make them out but wanted to explore further
what are you trying to say really? lmao, is this supposed to be a criticism? "has a preference for knowledge"-- I mean who don't have a preference for knowledge?; and for all people, there are moments during your day when you're less intuitive and moments when you're more intuitive (hint: it depends on what you're doing), a person is neither too intuitive nor too knowledgeable (they aren't the same, but it doesn't even make sense to separate the two); moreover, you wouldn't know what kind of person he is through an online conversation anyway
Links:
- On Thursday, April 18th at 7 pm, I will present at Maliotis Cultural Center on "The Icons of Holy Week". Get your $15 tickets on Eventbrite today: www.eventbrite.com/e/the-icons-of-holy-week-a-talk-by-jonathan-pageau-tickets-835903900067
- Direct and most affordable place to get Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Patitsas: www.stnicholaspress.net/ethics-of-beauty
- A complimentary patron-only video about the Jesus Prayer that you can watch: th-cam.com/video/aPyanmXxpaQ/w-d-xo.html
46:53 beauty is capacity to bear one’s cross. that’s why we love it. the strong man is beautiful because of his capacity to work and protect. the wear and tear is the difficult reality of our world but was not meant before we left the paradise. Dr Pete
Today I was listening to a short work by Ian McGilchrist and it made me think about Wendel Berry and Jane Jacobs. I Enjoyed this visit very much.
Three after my own heart. Thank you for those. Maybe also Dostoyevsky, Bulgakov and Kierkegaard? And of course...well, you get the point.
“And that’s why chicks dig scars” - Jonathan Pageau, symbolism connoisseur 😂
33:30
That definition of beauty about halfway through was pretty cool, it's given me a lot to think about.
0:36:00 Christopher Alexander talked about 'local symmetry' and 'roughness' as two of 15 properties of good structure/order.
Thank you
Hello, I have a random question) I'm just interested what do you think about John's Truby four corner opposition method? Does it align with the traditional storytelling?
you should interview Len Sweet
It's Russian nesting dolls all the way down...
Is the word Avalo means to separate?
Diavolos
Vipassana
Has cinema change epistemology? I was born in 1952 in a Ukrainian peasant community. My parents first house had a dirt floor. I do not watch movies or tv. I do not understand the appeal. I find most movies entirely predictable.
And this from Dostoyevsky's The Adolescent: "I stopped studying precisely out of fanaticism: it was as if a lack of education added beauty to the ideal. Now I've changed my convictions at this point; education doesn't hurt...(but) can it be that independence of mind, even the least bit of it, is so painful for you? Blessed is he who has his ideal of beauty, even if it's a mistaken one!"
Dostoevsky never fails to make me wonder
I had a 3 month break between jobs 2 years ago. I read McGilchrist's The Matter with Things every day and only just got through it before my next job started - but it was worth it. A life changing work.
Beauty is literally the glory of God, it is an image of fullness of purpose, so yes, it is "symmetry adapted to particularity", but it's more than that, it is the perceived image of the fittedness of both. In that sense it is a fractal of a fractal, it is participation in God recognizing participation in God, and enriched by that participation. It is the joy of the Holy Spirit at the love between the Father and the Son, and so of the Father seeing the love between the Holy Spirit and the Son, and the Son seeing the love between the Father and the Holy Spirit. It is perceiving the non-competiting love of God, as well as it is the veneration and worship, it is the act of building the Kingdom of heaven within. Beauty is the map to the participation in the energies of God.
Yes! Dr Patitsas’ book has been life transforming for us, as much as the Symbolic World has. Can’t wait for this. The Ethics of Beauty goes far to teach healing for our maladies in the modern west. Now if only one could buy it for less than an arm and a leg…😅
Actually the $50 price isn’t bad since it’s like 3 books in 1. Lively, profound and fun…not the normal experience when reading ethics or theology. i lik this guy…. a serious Christian thinker with a sense of humor
wow, this is a big one!
Its really funny that when I was taking the required literature classes in college, we read Jane Jacobs. But instead of attributing the death of american architecture to science, our discussions in class usually centered around economic and political reasons. Nothing about science or religion was mentioned.
What a sad state most of the educational institutions have come to.
I have done a series of paintings of micro organisms which thrive on their sensual relation to their immediate environment ( light, water, food )....and it was an intuitive expression of elemental beauty of life.....the underlying drive could be deemed relational...eros....
This is really cool, where I could I find them?
FINALLY! 😆 I’ve been waiting for you two to have a conversation.
There is a condition called 'Stendhalt syndrome', (I don't think it is considered legit in academic circles) It is based upon the experience of the French/German writer while he was travelling through Italy. He had seen Venice, Milan, and Verona, and by the time he got to Firenze, he found himself in a swooning fever after witnessing so many marvels of beauty, the towering cathedrals, the astounding craftmanship of renaissance painting, sculpture, architecture, stonework, music and litrrature. He had quite literally 'overdosed'on beauty, and his body and mind were shutting down, he just couldn't take it!!
Thus we have an incapacitating illness called the 'Stendhalt syndrome' that is a result of experiencing too much beauty, be it man-made wonders or tbe vistas of nature, perhaps there is only so much we can actually handle in a short period of time, or if it us an unnaturally prolonged exposure!!
I guess the only antidote might be to spend a few days in Detroit or Minneapolis and one will start feeling alert and functioning in no time!!
29:26 Hmm. Beauty is the grammar of virtue? Interesting...
Very interesting conversation! We have seen the dangers of when the church doubles down and doesn’t understand Beauty and relationship here and it becomes about utility first and foremost. I would love to see more conversations about that.
"When we encounter in a relationship that the other person is unwilling, or unable or psychologically unready to bear even the smallest cross for us, that's really sad, that's much harder. Then we realize that we've got to up our game, that we've got to carry more crosses for the life of the world and stop trying to be so "pretty" and focus on being beautiful, or on being good and letting the beauty come out of that. " TP 45:13-50
Thank you! I really needed to hear this today.
Genesis 3:9-13?!. Hebreo 5:13. Leviticus 5:17. Jeremiah 8:1-9?!. Hebreo 4:12. Vincent. Psalms 1449. Morning has broken.
Glad to see Dr Patitsas back on the show!
unexpected ending lol
The greatest Country in the World!! Isaiah 5:20-26 Pssst!!! God bless the U.S.A. PSALMS 144:9. MALAKIAS 1:11.
Jonathan, I admire your work… You’re doing a great job, to be honest.
The work that you were doing resonates a lot with what I'm trying to do., which is helping people and showing the incredible energy of the holy spirit. Is there any way you can direct me through the sacred movement you were saying at Ralston College? Timestamp 56:36. I would love to be part of it.
Love that he brought up the death and life of great American cities! Christians need to be leading the way on creating beautiful and walkable communities with lots of third places, yet so many on the right see it as some sort of conspiracy (including JBP) 🤦🏻
People pointing to a “conspiracy” may be talking about so-called 15-minute cities as pushed by WEF, UN published agendas (not conspiracies). Being pleasantly walkable and bike-able is only the veneer, the intent is surveillance and people
not having freedom
of movement, part of the “you will own nothing and you will be happy” plan.
Hi Jonathan greetings from Brazil
Very interesting conversation! At the end, two colleges were brought up: Raulston & Hellenic College. As a someone living in Europe, Germany, who has been listening to your videos for a few years now & is interested in symbolic thinking and the ancient world, I'd love to know whether any similar universities/colleges, that anyone is aware of, exist in Europe.
I love your channel, JP!
Wonderful conversation. I am deeply touched.
Lebron Jammesss
🌚☄️❤️💫
This was appropriately beautiful; thank you Jonathan and Dr. Patitsas for your richly beautiful, good and true work. I particularly loved the connection made between McGilchrist's sequence of right >left>right movement of the brain hemispheres that he goes into with the sequence of the transcendentals. I would love to see Dr. Patitsas talk to DC Schindler, who has been a great influence on me in relation to these topics, and shares the same beauty > goodness > truth paradigm, while also writing brilliantly on a proper understanding of freedom in contrast to the deficient predominant models.
From Bulgakov's The Bride of the Lamb: "...so the creaturely world of temporal being had the unity of time and eternity, becoming eternity. The latter has neither a temporal beginning nor a temporal end, for eternity is capable of being reflected only in the entire fullness of temporality, and not in its separate parts. Therefore, it requires endlessness , which has beginninglessness as it's counterpart." Just saying...the "essential antinomy" is in asymmetrical union of all distinctives where each piece of the puzzle is an odd and unique shape as expression of the self-sufficient Whole.
if im not mistaken plato's allegory of the cave was correctly used by timothy patitsas - the idea is that reality is comprehended through a glass dimly, the shadows being a crude approximation if not a presently incomprehensible allegory of base reality in and of themselves. Jonathan's idea that the shadows are a ladder to revelation is profound, and makes a point, but should be careful not to miss the point of what the allegory aims to imply.
Yes I came to comment this same thing but you caught it already. I found Jonathan’s comment on the cave to completely the point of the allegory, which certainly holds truth and does accurately describe reality for human beings. We certainly wouldn’t want Christian icons to be equated with the shadows in Plato’s cave! Quite the opposite
I gathered that JP was trying to transform the implied duality of the allegory (illusion vs. reality) by positing that it's actually a hierarchy of reality/beauty/glory from the top to the bottom. Like you said, it's a ladder.
@@cdubs406 yeah I got that, and it's a great take - i like the paradigm he filters everything through - but - plato's cave is also shorthand in modern parlance for misinterpretation of data by way of ignorance of higher order.
"Beauty as the symmetry of the particular" sounds more like a synthetic attempt to iron out all the dissimilar mysteries of pattern so that outsiders, insiders, monsters and contradiction are washed out onto the flat planes of predictability and epistemology. McGilchrist is anything but a simple symmetric where the genius of his gospel is found in the point where contradiction is mediated, not sifted through gnostic derivatives of the new and improved. God is a vast imbalance to the human. Heaven is overwhelmingly beyond the earthly capacity. Love is far more powerful than hate. Goodness is. Evil is not. Everything has always been. Nothing has never started. The imbalance is what the Logos mitigates and intervenes on our behalf: the horror of hell and the terror of heaven, with the earth and its' Cross in-between. All shall be saved and only nothing is destroyed in the fires of idolized sameness.
Beautiful stuff, but I do not think beauty is a shortcut to e.g. evaluating one farming style against another. A solar-powered desalination plant might look ugly, technical, inelegant, etc, but be a wise font of life nevertheless
At about 3:50 into it and visions of Plato's cave, film and story bring the painting by allegorist Mark Tansey, A Study for Discarding the Frame to mind and this quote from Tansey, "I think the painted picture as an embodiment of the very problem that we face with the notion of 'reality'. The problem or question is, which reality? In a painted picture, is it the depicted reality, or the reality of the picture plane or the multidimensional reality the artist and viewer exist in? That all three are involved points to the fact that all pictures are inherently problematic."
Jonathan, off topic,, I believe that you have the skill and ability to create an original insignia, that could then become an official flag to be flown on all government institutions of authority, in local, provincial and federal levels... Through deep prayer with God the Almighty, through Jesus Christ and the most Holy Spirit,,, this insignia would first honor God(Just Authority), secondly reflect Jesus Christ (Only Truth and Saviour), and thirdly reflect the Holy Spirit (Works and Service),, and lastly with a literal scripting of human (mind, body, soul)... The only suggestion I would offer,, is that the base of the canvas should be in a deep purple, with all four outer edges trimmed with gold... If this flag should ever come to be,,, more of it's intended purpose will be revealed to you in due time... God Bless you brother with Peace and Love unto you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Amen,amen...
“Chicks dig scars”- classic line from the replacements
Do you know Moriarty, Jonathan?
What was the word that was used for the devil? Was it evolvos? “To separate”
And then another word used for symbolism. I couldn’t make them out but wanted to explore further
dia-volos - the separator. sim-volos - brings together...
💋💋❤🔥❤🔥
:’)
Thanks
Thanks!
i love lebron
Neoplatonism
great comment dude
This guy feels too "knowledgeable" and less intuitive. You can tell he has a preference for knowledge.
what are you trying to say really? lmao, is this supposed to be a criticism? "has a preference for knowledge"-- I mean who don't have a preference for knowledge?; and for all people, there are moments during your day when you're less intuitive and moments when you're more intuitive (hint: it depends on what you're doing), a person is neither too intuitive nor too knowledgeable (they aren't the same, but it doesn't even make sense to separate the two); moreover, you wouldn't know what kind of person he is through an online conversation anyway
@0RTH0CHAD "Who doesn't have a preference for knowledge?"
A Christian
What an odd comment
@@meaningofreason He's one of them dualists.