does anyone ride just to ride? i'm a casual rider, and i've never hit the track. i own a firebolt and, to be honest, it doesn't matter to me one bit if even a gsxr600 can beat me on a highway run. to me (and maybe it's just me) riding is about the way a bike looks, sounds, feels and responds on a day-to-day basis. my day-to-day is on the streets, and i love everything about this bike. if you ride to race, maybe get a gsxr; if you ride to ride... well lets just say i'll never give up my buell.
Loved my 2008 1125R so much when I totalled it in a crash I bought a 2009 1125R. I think that speaks volumes. I considered and could have bought anything, but for me it's a near perfect bike
amen to that Paul I loved mine just the same that I bought another and I didn't even crash first bike lol... I just wanted last year production, one for daily rider and one for keeps sake...!
Seeing a lot of bashing both ways here. I have personally owned an '04 R6, '09 Zx6r, '04 R1, '99 R1, '08 600RR and thankfully have also had the pleasure of riding this amazing bike! Out of all of these the R6 was still my favorite bike to really rip on. This Buell my only complaint is the style, I think it's not really hitting the market there in any way, but the bike mechanically is insanely good! Currently I am beating my head against the wall between a 06/07 R6, Daytona 675, 1125R and 848.
I have a 2009 1125r and for me this is a great bike. No mechanical issues after 8k. Bike is fast, has more than enough power and handles beautifully. I ride with a group of buddies who own various Japanese 1 litre bikes and I don't have an issue holding my own when we ride hard.
Each to his own Bro', all good, nice to see some honesty. Runs true to the reviews in stock standard form, like to think you had the chance to ride an improved version. Stay cool.
I love my 1125r, nothing else to say.....ridden heaps of bikes yet this bike is the duck's guts. Just get an after-market exhaust and wow what a rideable machine!!!!! Love it, love it. Learn to ride it and it will reward you no end!!!
I know it's an old comment, I agree and you're correct. But people have put fairings on bikes long before Erik Buell. I'm not too sure of their first use in racing, but at Bonneville in the early 60's, maybe even before, people started using complete fairings, basically stream liners. Them old timers really knew what they were doing for how crude the technology was. :D
Would I have bought an 1125R FOR 12K plus. Probably not. But I got a new '09 for a little over 5k out the door. By '09 the problems were fixed and the bike, so far, is flawless. I think it's a great bike, fast and solid if not quick handling. And I have to agree it would eat a 'Busa alive on a track under equal riders. But if you disagree, take your Suzi to the nearest track for a track day and see how many 1125r's you outrun.
@Born2Buell your exactly right! I have been looking for a rider, and fell in love with an old lightning, and that has progressed into an 1125r! Never thought Id be so happy with a sport bike, so Im glad I found Buell!
I have rode Hayabusas with turbos, you want to talk fast haha. My everyday driver bike is 190 horse at the wheel. Its being able to handle the power, having the brains to know when and how to use it. Having power on the street, riding at normal speeds, makes bikes safer having the ability to outrun and out manuever other vehicles that do things to obstruct you. More then once I have had to gas it to make it through an intersection where someone was pulling out in front of me.
It seems that all the people who put down Buell haven't ever ridden one. It seems that most riders are very conservative, and afraid to try anything new or different. I currently own four Buells, as well as a BMW and a Honda. I use them for daily riding, track days, sport-touring. As soon as Erik is building streetbikes again, I'll certainly be looking them over, with an eye to buying one, whwnever they become available in Canada.
I for one would like to see a full video uploaded from start to finish from these guys... They always upload just a teaser, which translates to me into "wasted data"...
I own an 1125r and cbr1000...the Buell definitely pulls away faster...but the cbr blows it away after 60mph...both bikes are awesome in their respective ways. NOTE...you must get the Race ECM and aftermarket exhaust for 1125 to make it rideable IMO
Well, gasoline itself won't corrode metals. Gasoline typically dissolves hydrocarbons (like polystyrene, or many greases.) In fact, gasoline won't even dissolve sugar, despite what that old idea of putting sugar in the gas tank would suggest. Gas tanks corrode due to *water* in the tanks. On a motorcycle, the frame would regularly be exposed to water, so putting the gasoline in the frame doesn't really add any risk of premature corrosion for your bike.
I have not had any problems with my 1125R, and I can run circles arround the Japanese liter bikes all day long. Sure they can beat me in a straight line, but what fun is going in a straight line? Any schmuck can jump on a Hiyabusa and do 200 mph in a straight line.
Heres a question for you, since you say the main reason a Vtwin is used, is so you can have a larger displacement. With that being said, I'd like to know why a inline with half the displacement can out power the twice as large displacement Vtwin? If you don't believe this to be true, look up NHRA rules and see how they only allow half the cc inline compete against twice as large Vtwin. So what good is it if it can't even compare to a little inline? Answer: more noise!
A lot of dick-measuring going on in here. We're all motorcyclists and we are happy to see fellow riders on the road no matter what they ride. Have some respect for each other.
V-twins are usually lighter than inline 4's. there is less block to a v twin and more empty space. my 750 kawasaki weighs just as much as my fathers 1200 sporty. but mine is still faster. So V-twin will give you better handling and slimmer fairings, good for technical riding on track or canyon carving. The extra Torque from a V-twin well also rocket you out of corners. 4's are better for straight line all out speed. p.s. don't quote me on this
You are a lucky guy if you put more then 5K without problems. Most aren't that lucky. The Rotax powered Buells are much more reliable, but the Sportster versions were a nightmare. Saying you are on the original belt tells me you either are fibbing or extremely lucky. I know a guy that owns two of them, and neither can keep a belt on. He owns two so he always has one that he can ride while he fixes the other. True story! Yes some buy the most powerful because its actually worth the money spent.
Yea linx187, Erik Buell doesn't know what he's doing, He has a Engineering degree from Pittsburgh, was the first to actually put a full fairing on a race bike (back when he started racing). Stresses low center of gravity with fuell in the frame and underslung exhaust. He is probably the only CEO that actually ever raced.
From an obtuse perspective, it sounds like Buell didn't know what the fuck they were making UNTIL they got pro riders from around the world to tell them what to make. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of the bike and the look, just the bike just doesn't have a strong name to stand on (championship wise), and real world riding wise. I mean think about this...if the fuel in the frame wears down the frame and eventually rusts, it's much easier to replace a gas tank then a damn FRAME
Yes it is technically a larger diplacement engine. Facts are facts buddy. And if you want to really know the facts its compared to a 750. here you have it. The Gsxr 1000 will not only beat it, it will make it disappear in its mirrors. And this is in stock form, simple mods make the Gsxrs much faster, where no simple mods will do this for the 1125. It doesn't matter because soon they will be gone anyway. So whats the point? Anything harley has thats worth a shit they quit making, go figure.....
To call An engine with 25 more cc's And two less cylinders. a bigger engine is a lack of mechanical Reality.Susuki has made a version of the in line DOHC inline 4 sense 1977, they have had over 30 years to improve it I should be better. . this engine has only been around for a year or so.yet it compares fairly well.
Haha I am a big guy, I ride a Busa because it fits me perfect. I think the compensation for lack of power you guys have is the need to be loud. And to think you can out run an R1 or Gsxr1K with a Vtwin Buell, well that is downright funny. It would be different if I had never rode an 1125, then yeah I'd say maybe they are fast, but dude I have and no they aren't. You guys have such a dislike for metrics that you will say anything to stick up for this junk. Thank God its over with.
Hi man , I'm 5'5" , i ride a 2007 hayabusa and a 2010 1125cr buell. The hayabusa is the best all round bike I've ever ridden. Suits all situations and sizes. But i prefer the Buell for smile factor. If i were sencible I'd just have the Hayabusa. But I'm a f##king eejit so why settle for perfection :)
You had the oportunity to bitch slap Eric Buell for his creations and you didn't take it? For Gods sake man you could have done us all a favor. Lets just hope he redeems himself and comes out with an apology to all the people that bought them in the past. He owes that. Maybe just maybe he will continue on and catch up to the metrics someday? I doubt it but it would be nice to see an American bike with the ability to make more power then noise and hold together.
The truth hurts sometimes. Sorry to hurt your ego but it needs to be known. I know people that have been let down by the Buell experience and strongly feel the need to let it be known that these machines are not only bad they are dangerous to ride. They should all have to be recalled and destroyed. I and others are pushing for this very thing. Letters have been sent, investigations are being done. You should know that is the main reason the company is overwith. The lies will continue being told.
Keep your tanks full after dark, less air space, less chance of ullage forming condensation that leads to free water within fuel tanks, Trust me, it's my job to know this shit. Stay away from ethanol blends too.
I work on them so yes I do ride. I am not so against the 1125 its finally in the right direction. My biggest bitch is the Sportster engines they used to use. Unbelieveable garbage. No company could have done worse. I look at what they have now and laugh because it took an imported engine once again to even somewhat compare to what the other companies have been building for years. Yes the 1125 is better but its too late. And when you can have a Gsxr I say why not its a better bike. Get with it
The only thing your Buell will "own" is your wallet! If you ride a Buell with the Rotax at least you have a better engine then the previous models had. Its good they finally went Rotax but its too late as Buell is done for harley droped them as harley usually does when it works. Now go and dream of beating Hayabusas or a Gsxr of any size and live happily ever after. Thank God the Buell dilema is finally overwith.
That is what everyone says about something that is faster then what you own. Its always bad to be faster, give me and everyone else a break. Riding a motorcycle like most Harley riders do helmetless can kill you. Try again
You must not read, I have not only ridden Buells sad to say, I work on the damn things I own a shop you dweeb. I don't have a video of my bike I have plenty of pictures. Look I don't have anything to prove to you or anyone else. I took the time to comment in order to help others not make the mistake of buying this junk. You can believe what I ride or not doesn't matter to me. I worked around bikes for years I know what works and what doesn't. I have nearly 150K on bikes.
Hahahaha... I can ride my CR500 down the 1/4 mile and beat a Hayabusa, I can fly it 30 feet in the air, so don't talk to me about being able to ride... So you think you can ride because your bike has power? Hahahaha what a putz... Any day, any time... My Buell will own your Hayabusa anywhere but a straight line.
Harley will never and I repeat never make a bike or have anything to do with a bike that is for riders not posers. Most of us know that harley stands for back-asswards motorcycles. I imagine you are upset that they are no more, well you have my sypathy buddy, but no tears here. I am embarassed that an American company cannot make a decent sport bike to compete against the rest of the world. To think American riders have to ride imports is quite embarassing. You just don't understand.
Not only is it a larger displacement engine, it has a shorter lighter crankshaft. It has two less pistons, rods etc... to have to sling around. By rights this engine should fly by the same size inline, but guess what?? It doesn't you dweeb. It makes more noise, which guys like you enjoy and doesn't perform. The inlines flat out fly. Smaller displacement inlines will still eat and spit out your Vtwin crapbox. But go ahead and ride proud, while the rest of us laughs our ass off at you. Wise up
Dude are you even out of pre shool, Hey I will write real slow so you can read what I have written.. South Park does the mos excellent job of showing you Buell/Harley guys exactly what others think of them. Loud obnoxious pieces of dung. If some of these words are too hard for you look them up please. Again, I take the time to come on these different Videos to try to make sure others don't make the same mistake buying this crap. In a few years they will be nothing but a bad memory.
I lost my respect for this company having been using outdated sportster engines for Gods sake. If you think they can out handle an import you must not know much. Putting an engine that has a tiny narrow powerband and vibration too yet was retarded as hell. Finally after it was too late they started using a Rotax engines. The bikes have so many built in problems that nobody in his right mind would be caught dead owning one unless he was trying to impress the ignorant by stating it was American.
does anyone ride just to ride? i'm a casual rider, and i've never hit the track. i own a firebolt and, to be honest, it doesn't matter to me one bit if even a gsxr600 can beat me on a highway run. to me (and maybe it's just me) riding is about the way a bike looks, sounds, feels and responds on a day-to-day basis. my day-to-day is on the streets, and i love everything about this bike. if you ride to race, maybe get a gsxr; if you ride to ride... well lets just say i'll never give up my buell.
Loved my 2008 1125R so much when I totalled it in a crash I bought a 2009 1125R.
I think that speaks volumes. I considered and could have bought anything, but for me it's a near perfect bike
amen to that Paul I loved mine just the same that I bought another and I didn't even crash first bike lol... I just wanted last year production, one for daily rider and one for keeps sake...!
Seeing a lot of bashing both ways here. I have personally owned an '04 R6, '09 Zx6r, '04 R1, '99 R1, '08 600RR and thankfully have also had the pleasure of riding this amazing bike!
Out of all of these the R6 was still my favorite bike to really rip on.
This Buell my only complaint is the style, I think it's not really hitting the market there in any way, but the bike mechanically is insanely good!
Currently I am beating my head against the wall between a 06/07 R6, Daytona 675, 1125R and 848.
I have a 2009 1125r and for me this is a great bike. No mechanical issues after 8k. Bike is fast, has more than enough power and handles beautifully. I ride with a group of buddies who own various Japanese 1 litre bikes and I don't have an issue holding my own when we ride hard.
Each to his own Bro', all good, nice to see some honesty. Runs true to the reviews in stock standard form, like to think you had the chance to ride an improved version. Stay cool.
I love my 1125r, nothing else to say.....ridden heaps of bikes yet this bike is the duck's guts. Just get an after-market exhaust and wow what a rideable machine!!!!! Love it, love it. Learn to ride it and it will reward you no end!!!
I know it's an old comment, I agree and you're correct. But people have put fairings on bikes long before Erik Buell. I'm not too sure of their first use in racing, but at Bonneville in the early 60's, maybe even before, people started using complete fairings, basically stream liners. Them old timers really knew what they were doing for how crude the technology was. :D
nice strong torque delivery bike!
taste and practicality is everything. and it just so happens that buells fall into my taste and practicality fields.
Would I have bought an 1125R FOR 12K plus. Probably not. But I got a new '09 for a little over 5k out the door. By '09 the problems were fixed and the bike, so far, is flawless. I think it's a great bike, fast and solid if not quick handling. And I have to agree it would eat a 'Busa alive on a track under equal riders. But if you disagree, take your Suzi to the nearest track for a track day and see how many 1125r's you outrun.
@Born2Buell your exactly right! I have been looking for a rider, and fell in love with an old lightning, and that has progressed into an 1125r! Never thought Id be so happy with a sport bike, so Im glad I found Buell!
I have rode Hayabusas with turbos, you want to talk fast haha.
My everyday driver bike is 190 horse at the wheel.
Its being able to handle the power, having the brains to know when and how to use it.
Having power on the street, riding at normal speeds, makes bikes safer having the ability to outrun and out manuever other vehicles that do things to obstruct you.
More then once I have had to gas it to make it through an intersection where someone was pulling out in front of me.
It seems that all the people who put down Buell haven't ever ridden one. It seems that most riders are very conservative, and afraid to try anything new or different. I currently own four Buells, as well as a BMW and a Honda. I use them for daily riding, track days, sport-touring. As soon as Erik is building streetbikes again, I'll certainly be looking them over, with an eye to buying one, whwnever they become available in Canada.
Just bought a 25th Anniversary to replace my Triumph Sprint ST.
WOW, awesome bike
The radiator pods are designed to protect the frame and radiators in a crash.
I for one would like to see a full video uploaded from start to finish from these guys... They always upload just a teaser, which translates to me into "wasted data"...
Thanks for sharing the video!
I own an 1125r and cbr1000...the Buell definitely pulls away faster...but the cbr blows it away after 60mph...both bikes are awesome in their respective ways. NOTE...you must get the Race ECM and aftermarket exhaust for 1125 to make it rideable IMO
Well, gasoline itself won't corrode metals. Gasoline typically dissolves hydrocarbons (like polystyrene, or many greases.) In fact, gasoline won't even dissolve sugar, despite what that old idea of putting sugar in the gas tank would suggest. Gas tanks corrode due to *water* in the tanks. On a motorcycle, the frame would regularly be exposed to water, so putting the gasoline in the frame doesn't really add any risk of premature corrosion for your bike.
is the inside of the frame rubber coated or something to contain the fuel or is it contacting the metal?
I have not had any problems with my 1125R, and I can run circles arround the Japanese liter bikes all day long. Sure they can beat me in a straight line, but what fun is going in a straight line? Any schmuck can jump on a Hiyabusa and do 200 mph in a straight line.
this is for sport bikes in consideration though i only brought up the sporty for comparison cause i know the exact specs on it.
Heres a question for you, since you say the main reason a Vtwin is used, is so you can have a larger displacement. With that being said, I'd like to know why a inline with half the displacement can out power the twice as large displacement Vtwin?
If you don't believe this to be true, look up NHRA rules and see how they only allow half the cc inline compete against twice as large Vtwin. So what good is it if it can't even compare to a little inline?
Answer: more noise!
@sikryd This is the perfect balance between muscle and speed
Its just a shame its a bit of a minger, are all the bolts metric or in inches ?
A lot of dick-measuring going on in here. We're all motorcyclists and we are happy to see fellow riders on the road no matter what they ride. Have some respect for each other.
damn 5.6 gallons?! thats big for a 1000 style sport bike. not a fan of this thing but i may have to get this as my second bike lol
yes and a great collector....too
Have you ever ridden a Harley or a Buell?
V-twins are usually lighter than inline 4's. there is less block to a v twin and more empty space. my 750 kawasaki weighs just as much as my fathers 1200 sporty. but mine is still faster. So V-twin will give you better handling and slimmer fairings, good for technical riding on track or canyon carving. The extra Torque from a V-twin well also rocket you out of corners. 4's are better for straight line all out speed.
p.s. don't quote me on this
You are a lucky guy if you put more then 5K without problems. Most aren't that lucky.
The Rotax powered Buells are much more reliable, but the Sportster versions were a nightmare. Saying you are on the original belt tells me you either are fibbing or extremely lucky. I know a guy that owns two of them, and neither can keep a belt on. He owns two so he always has one that he can ride while he fixes the other. True story! Yes some buy the most powerful because its actually worth the money spent.
great bike ! my favorite !
anybony knows the soundtack at the beginning ??:P
Yea linx187, Erik Buell doesn't know what he's doing, He has a Engineering degree from Pittsburgh, was the first to actually put a full fairing on a race bike (back when he started racing). Stresses low center of gravity with fuell in the frame and underslung exhaust. He is probably the only CEO that actually ever raced.
@sikryd yeah. try it with a R1 or an SGXR 1000. they are both agile AND lighter.
Did you ever Ride One?
Not a big Buell fan, but must say I am sad to see them going under....
Spose you rode it for 5 secs did ya?????
From an obtuse perspective, it sounds like Buell didn't know what the fuck they were making UNTIL they got pro riders from around the world to tell them what to make. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of the bike and the look, just the bike just doesn't have a strong name to stand on (championship wise), and real world riding wise. I mean think about this...if the fuel in the frame wears down the frame and eventually rusts, it's much easier to replace a gas tank then a damn FRAME
@sikryd sorry i meant GSXR not SGXR
Yes it is technically a larger diplacement engine. Facts are facts buddy. And if you want to really know the facts its compared to a 750. here you have it. The Gsxr 1000 will not only beat it, it will make it disappear in its mirrors. And this is in stock form, simple mods make the Gsxrs much faster, where no simple mods will do this for the 1125. It doesn't matter because soon they will be gone anyway. So whats the point? Anything harley has thats worth a shit they quit making, go figure.....
dam... thehoser1 just owned you hahahahah. But good video good post!
It still a 4cylinder engine
nah I did a 200km stint on one coming back from a city south of here. Im not a fan.
Burt Munroe had the right idea.
To call An engine with 25 more cc's And two less cylinders. a bigger engine is a lack of mechanical Reality.Susuki has made a version of the in line DOHC inline 4 sense 1977, they have had over 30 years to improve it I should be better. .
this engine has only been around for a year or so.yet it compares fairly well.
are now :)
Haha I am a big guy, I ride a Busa because it fits me perfect. I think the compensation for lack of power you guys have is the need to be loud.
And to think you can out run an R1 or Gsxr1K with a Vtwin Buell, well that is downright funny.
It would be different if I had never rode an 1125, then yeah I'd say maybe they are fast, but dude I have and no they aren't.
You guys have such a dislike for metrics that you will say anything to stick up for this junk.
Thank God its over with.
Hi man , I'm 5'5" , i ride a 2007 hayabusa and a 2010 1125cr buell.
The hayabusa is the best all round bike I've ever ridden. Suits all situations and sizes. But i prefer the Buell for smile factor.
If i were sencible I'd just have the Hayabusa. But I'm a f##king eejit so why settle for perfection :)
You had the oportunity to bitch slap Eric Buell for his creations and you didn't take it?
For Gods sake man you could have done us all a favor.
Lets just hope he redeems himself and comes out with an apology to all the people that bought them in the past.
He owes that.
Maybe just maybe he will continue on and catch up to the metrics someday? I doubt it but it would be nice to see an American bike with the ability to make more power then noise and hold together.
The truth hurts sometimes. Sorry to hurt your ego but it needs to be known. I know people that have been let down by the Buell experience and strongly feel the need to let it be known that these machines are not only bad they are dangerous to ride. They should all have to be recalled and destroyed. I and others are pushing for this very thing. Letters have been sent, investigations are being done. You should know that is the main reason the company is overwith. The lies will continue being told.
faster is only good for the track on the steet it can kill You.
hey dude im new at bikes whats the problem with buells they look alright but you speak of them as being shit testify brother enlighten the newby
Keep your tanks full after dark, less air space, less chance of ullage forming condensation that leads to free water within fuel tanks, Trust me, it's my job to know this shit. Stay away from ethanol blends too.
I work on them so yes I do ride. I am not so against the 1125 its finally in the right direction. My biggest bitch is the Sportster engines they used to use. Unbelieveable garbage. No company could have done worse. I look at what they have now and laugh because it took an imported engine once again to even somewhat compare to what the other companies have been building for years. Yes the 1125 is better but its too late. And when you can have a Gsxr I say why not its a better bike. Get with it
The only thing your Buell will "own" is your wallet!
If you ride a Buell with the Rotax at least you have a better engine then the previous models had. Its good they finally went Rotax but its too late as Buell is done for harley droped them as harley usually does when it works. Now go and dream of beating Hayabusas or a Gsxr of any size and live happily ever after. Thank God the Buell dilema is finally overwith.
They got pro riders to help fine tune the bike, not design it!
Magpul ronin. 1:17
no bike is like a ducati
That is what everyone says about something that is faster then what you own.
Its always bad to be faster, give me and everyone else a break. Riding a motorcycle like most Harley riders do helmetless can kill you.
Try again
you wasted your money boy.
and its called a Fairing. *sigh*
You must not read, I have not only ridden Buells sad to say, I work on the damn things I own a shop you dweeb.
I don't have a video of my bike I have plenty of pictures. Look I don't have anything to prove to you or anyone else. I took the time to comment in order to help others not make the mistake of buying this junk. You can believe what I ride or not doesn't matter to me.
I worked around bikes for years I know what works and what doesn't. I have nearly 150K on bikes.
Hahahaha... I can ride my CR500 down the 1/4 mile and beat a Hayabusa, I can fly it 30 feet in the air, so don't talk to me about being able to ride... So you think you can ride because your bike has power? Hahahaha what a putz... Any day, any time... My Buell will own your Hayabusa anywhere but a straight line.
Harley will never and I repeat never make a bike or have anything to do with a bike that is for riders not posers.
Most of us know that harley stands for back-asswards motorcycles.
I imagine you are upset that they are no more, well you have my sypathy buddy, but no tears here. I am embarassed that an American company cannot make a decent sport bike to compete against the rest of the world. To think American riders have to ride imports is quite embarassing.
You just don't understand.
Not only is it a larger displacement engine, it has a shorter lighter crankshaft. It has two less pistons, rods etc... to have to sling around.
By rights this engine should fly by the same size inline, but guess what?? It doesn't you dweeb. It makes more noise, which guys like you enjoy and doesn't perform. The inlines flat out fly. Smaller displacement inlines will still eat and spit out your Vtwin crapbox. But go ahead and ride proud, while the rest of us laughs our ass off at you. Wise up
Dude are you even out of pre shool, Hey I will write real slow so you can read what I have written..
South Park does the mos excellent job of showing you Buell/Harley guys exactly what others think of them. Loud obnoxious pieces of dung.
If some of these words are too hard for you look them up please.
Again, I take the time to come on these different Videos to try to make sure others don't make the same mistake buying this crap.
In a few years they will be nothing but a bad memory.
I lost my respect for this company having been using outdated sportster engines for Gods sake. If you think they can out handle an import you must not know much. Putting an engine that has a tiny narrow powerband and vibration too yet was retarded as hell. Finally after it was too late they started using a Rotax engines. The bikes have so many built in problems that nobody in his right mind would be caught dead owning one unless he was trying to impress the ignorant by stating it was American.
FAIL, no longer in production, FAIL!!