My mother was one of the clowns in our parish when I was a kid in the late 80s. It was a big reason I left the faith at 13. It was so undignified. When I returned to the Faith in 2018, I gravitated to the TLM because of its reverence & finally feeling like I was building my house on rock instead of sand.
A lot of parishes in the Midwest hold "polka masses", thinking that the use of corny polka music expresses their Polish culture. The people who want this are always three or four generations removed from Poland, and when I've shown videos of those polka masses to people who are actually from Poland, they're shocked and appalled. One of them wanted to know why "music for getting drunk" was being played at holy mass.
@PRKP Not to mention that it's completely unheard of - like completely - to play nonsense music during the celebration of Mass. Are these people insane ..?
Being from the Midwest, I can say that the polka masses are not frequent. They are usually held in concert with some local celebration or fund raising event.
The Polish Parish where I normally go for English Mass definately does Not do this at their Polish Mass. their Polish mass is very respectful other than some ordinary NO customs.
Father respectfully Vatican II called for Latin to have pride of place in both oral and sung form in the mass. This was completely set aside by the ill intended reformers. 😢
Father Casey, I would appreciate your squaring this truth with what you said about Latin and Gregorian chant, given what Vatican II said about them and pride of place. I am having trouble reconciling it all.
I'm an American ex-pat living in Europe. I attend the TLM with a diverse congregation. We find taking part in this ageless liturgy in the beautiful common Latin language a unifying force.
@@RPlavo Latin is not difficult to understand if you are willing to make a litlle effort. As an International Language, it is certainly easier to understand than Esperanto, which never really got off the ground..
Yeah I prefer the TLM, I find nothing wrong with it as well! Why try to fix something so wonderful that’s not broken, only to really end up breaking it?
@@RPlavo I am a USCitizen in Mexico and go to a Spanish Mass several times a week. I barely understand the homily and I remember the Mass replies in Latin. The Language is the very least, of the problematic changes especially emptying out of the Liturgy.
The Novus Ordo (the shorter Daily Mass version) helped me come into the Catholic faith when I started attending last summer & I'm close to confirmation on Easter Vigil nest month! I haven't attended a Latin Mass yet but I look forward to doing that this year.
Try to go to a High Mass but the Low, not-sung Mass is beautiful too. Reverence lies in the Apostolic Mass itself, not in the attempts of men. The Latin Mass converted the world. When it was fragmented and allowed to be influenced by Protestantism, mission activity was abandoned and the very essence of the Mass and priesthood became clouded with heterodox theology. God bless you on your journey
Im also being confirmed next month. I started in Novus Order, which I have no problem with, but I was lucky enough to attend one Latin Mass. Its amazing ! Nothing compares to the feeling of the Latin Mass, I HIGHLY recommend going to one as soon as you can. You won't regret it !
Thank God I’m Ukrainian Catholic. The Eastern Rite has NO folk masses, No clown masses, NO tablecloth vestments. We are as we were..reverent, spiritual and when you go to liturgy, you feel like you’ve been to liturgy.
@@infotecharytipperary1827 the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) received a TOMOS from Constantinople because the Russian church uncanonically annexed the Ukrainian church a long time ago. Now they are trying to take back all the property the Russian church has stolen
@@infotecharytipperary1827 [First post of 2 posts] Eastern Rite (aka: Byzantine Rite, Greek Rite, Uniate Church) are part of the *Roman* *Catholic* church. The Eastern *Orthodox* Church in Ukraine is split between two Patriarchates [SEE: My second post (that is set up as a reply to this post) as the continuation of this post]
@infotecharytipperary1827 [Second post of 2 posts] The Eastern *Orthodox* Church in Ukraine is split between two Patriarchates 1.) "UOC-MP" ("Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate") The primate of the UOC-MP is *Metropolitan Onufriy* (title: "Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine.") He is an ethnic Ukrainian 2.) "AOCU" (aka "O.C.U.") is the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Ukraine", "The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was established by a unification council on 15 December 2018. The council voted to unite the existing Ukrainian Orthodox churches (UOC-KP, UAOC and parts of the UOC-MP) through their representatives, on the basis of complete canonical independence. The primate of the Church is styled the "Metropolitan of Kyiv and all Ukraine". The unification council elected Epiphanius I as its first primate. The Church was officially granted autocephaly on 5 January 2019 by decree of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew I" - Wikipedia Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew of Constantinople is the "first among equals" of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The see is located in the Turkish city of Istanbul. Under the Eastern Roman/ Byzantine empire, the capital of the empire and the see was the ancient city of Constantinople (now called Istanbul)
@@cseelinger You are employing moral relativism, when in fact, the Traditional Latin Mass *is* the ONLY form which ought to be celebrated in the Roman rite. The point is that the Novus Ordo was founded on Protestant notions, led by Masons & Protestants, and no good fruit has come from it. In fact, we have had a host of liturgical abuses come from it, when no liturgical abuses came from the TLM.
@@shawnmurphy7778 also catholic means universalist so the new version is more catholic than ever before lol. But orthodox historically was almost always more catholic than the varicanist
@@DoctorDewgong The Mass of the Ages documentary is propaganda with lots of fear mongering that uses very selective facts and history in the service of that propaganda. You are not getting an honest picture from that documentary.
Thank you, Fr. Casey. There is room for cultural expression of joy in the Mass, but judiciously. I live in a part of the US where many Mexican immigrants have settled. Our parish vividly celebrates Our Lady of Guadalupe, a feast day I knew little about growing up. The color and reverence and devotion I see each year as the statue of Our Lady is carried through the streets is awe inspiring. It brought me to tears the first time I saw it, my heart was so full of the infectious joy these people were sharing with our whole community, Christian and non-Christian alike. There wasn't a frown to be found on anyone! 🙏❤🔥
@CM Not "woke", unGodly culture, that's for sure. Given my post before this, pal, and your response to it, I think it's obvious what sad kind you support. Muting you as your comments are no longer worth my time.
Father can you pray for me, I am joining seminary. I feel very heavy about the abuse crisis here in Ireland. I really love the church and want to try be a priest like you, I am a good bit older than most people discerning priesthood around your age so thank you.
Go only to a Traditional seminary. You don't want to end up thinking laymen are your equals or that one religion is as good as another. The FSSP seminary is in Germany.
My parish used to have Irish missionaries to run schools. They got along well with non christian parents and politicians who wanted their children enrolled in christian schools and to continue studies abroad.
It is interesting how so many people here talk about how the latin mass brought them to church or back to church. I have heard many of these stories myself. I think it's time to reflect on that fact in regards to the second council.
I've been Catholic my whole life. This is the first time I've heard of a "clown Mass." Hard for me to wrap my head around that one. I attended my first TLM in 2003 (midnight Christmas Mass). I was in awe about the whole experience. I remember watching Mass on EWTN prior to then. My Latin is rather rusty at best. But, the Masses on EWTN did help me with Latin. This experience in part led me to my Confirmation on Easter Vigil 2005. The kicker about my Confirmation (via RCIA) is that it took place 20 years and 1 day after my First Communion (during CCD). I chose Padre Pio as my Confirmation Saint. Pio is probably a very tall act to follow. Also, the fact that John Paul the Great was called Home the week afterward I felt was not a coincidence. Padre Pio and John Paul II, pray for us!
Our priests, Father Morris (our Pastor) and Father Ward are conservative and traditional. We have a Latin Mass at our Mission church, St. Mary just outside of Ironton.@@Titadj
"if you wouldn't do it at the foot of the cross, don't do it in mass." I think that is a good rule of thumb. Different cultures will show reverence in different ways, and that is fine. As long as the actions in mass that are done are legitimately reverent in that culture, I think that's a beautiful thing. But I believe that anyone in charge of mass needs to be asking that question.
I can’t deny how my life has changed within the last few years since attending the TLM. It being taken away from my parish church and the potential right to say it as a priest hurts.
It is not only unjust but illegal and evil what Francis and Roche are trying to to do. I belong to an FSSP parish which seems safe for now. But if the destroyer comes for us, we will go back to the catacombs if necessary. Go to the SSPX if necessary. Surely, the next Pope will set things right. Evil will not triumph.
@@wednesdayschild3627 So it was right to punish the whole group of faithful over the sins of some people who don't represent the whole? Is this the synodal way, accompanying the faithful, showing mercy, and listening, as the Pope preaches us to do?
As someone who definitely leans toward traditionalism and attends the Tridentine Mass almost exclusively, I do appreciate the careful way you handled this topic… offering concern about flagrant liturgical abuse, while simultaneously advocating for balanced means of reverent enculturation.
A very honest and unbiased video, Father. It is important that any Mass show reverence to God. Different cultures will worship in a variety of ways. Nevertheless, common sense should be used. I personally greatly enjoy going to ethnic Masses. They remind me of the connection that all Catholics have with one another.
Only about 13% of the original language from the ancient Mass was retained in it; the most prominent ommission was the great focus of the sacrifice of our Lord Calvary replaced with the focus on the supper: a table replaced an altar. Annibale Bugnini brought in 6 protestants to Vatican II to at least receive input from them on changes made to the mass, with at least 2 of the 6, one a Lutheran, in approval of the changes. In the end, when abuses occur, the higher-ups will say it shouldn't be occurring, that it isn't in Vatican II, but often nothing gets done. But when it is in Vatican II the mass is to be said in Latin it's ignored.
@@evelynmcewen8874 just stop already Constant criticism by all you rad trads makes me want to become a Protestant! I was raised on the Conservative Novus Ordo in Poland. I LOVE, DEEPLY DEEPLY DEEPLY LOVE OUR LORD and i learned to LOVE Him in the Novus Ordo Church. The graces are here...just as much as un the Traditional Latin Mass I love Latin, which comes easy to me because i speak polish, and i attended the Traditional Latin Mass but all this fighting mostly by people like you made me leave the TLM. And yes, i miss it, but i will Not attend it again because i want to WORSHIP our Lord instead of POLITICIZE THE MASS! SO STOP ALREADY! PLEASE ALL THIS FIGHTING WITHIN THE CHURCH HARMS OUR LORD MUCH MORE THEN THE LIBERAL MASSES.....IF THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE WHO LOVE OUR LORD............ Ask yourself, are you better then other Catholics just because you attend the TLM and trash the Novus Ordo? If your answer is yes then you live in the mortal sin of pride....which is sadly extremely prominent among the Rad trads. Sadly. I know because i was very guilty of this myself for a while and begged God to forgive me. I have met many beautiful, loving Catholics in the Novus Ordo Churches, unfortunately i only met few very very loving and accepting people at the TLM Churches, especially SSPX, most were extremely critical, political, often close hearted and even mean people wgo gossip and criticize the whole Catholic Church, all Popes and think they are the Only saintly Catholics.....wow.....how wrong......... And by the way, the Protestant invited to the Vatican II Counsel were NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE. SO STOP ATTACKING THE COUNSEL IF YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS. May God help you see.... May God help us all.
@@marzena3396815 You are clearly triggered and resorting to name-calling, projecting, painting others with a broad brush, making things up, talking nonsense, and spewing venom against them when facts are presented about the changes made. Stop being rigid towards others, hateful, and not showing accompaniment. The division being stoked was and is AGAINST the Latin mass and those who attend it, and has been ongoing against them for 60 years, and not from those who support the TLM. Francis is waxing protestant: Francis was in hearty approval of both the Vatican Martin Luther/Melanchton stamp and statue being rolled out and he even declared the church agrees with Luther on Justification when it never did before as hundreds of years worth of popes and saints are against him on this matter having sided with the Council of Trent instead. And Francis was in disobedience to infallible councils by participating in a service with pro-aBoRt, pro-gay marriage, heretical Lutherans in Sweden as councils have said this is not allowed. And the 6 protestants at V2 weren't brought there for window dressing but to offer up suggestions, and at least 2 of them were apparently happy with the changes.
I mean, if you can’t pay attention to a mass dressed as a clown I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you aren’t focusing enough on the internal part and care more about the outside performance of decency and solemnity? Like how some people care more about gold decorations and fancy clothes than about worshiping and prayer. While to some people the expensive gold decorations ARE a form of worship. So maybe some propel NEED the outside dressings and solemnity to be able to focus and do what they need to do
People who can remember the Latin Mass in non-revival form are becoming fewer every year. As an occasional TLM worshipper, Latin Masses seem to have a representative demographic. I think the Holy Father is mistaken in his fear of them as hotbeds of reaction and schism, if indeed that is what he thinks.
A lot of young people who grew up with guitar masses feel like they were robbed of the opportunity to experience real Catholic tradition and worship while growing up. And they have a point
I haven’t found that to be true. Most young people don’t even know the mass was said in Latin and could care less about it. One young woman I talked to ,when I casually mentioned something about a Latin Mass , refused to believe me. She said “ Latin? Like the Romans spoke? That makes no sense…why would the Church do that?” And gently accused me of joking with her. I told her to go research it if she liked. But pretty sure she isn’t missing a Latin mass and likes the Mass just as it is.
@@c.m.cordero1772 Ignorance is not preference, it simply means people have done a bad job in educating young Catholics. Sacrosanctum consilium not to mention most church tradition before Vatican II speaks of the primacy of both the Latin language and of musical forms such as Gregorian chant in the liturgy, I think a reform of the reform is necessary in order to properly reconcile things, but that is a different discussion. I can only speak for myself and the handful of young Catholics I know, but we are in the 18 to 25 demographic and almost to the man we preferred the TLM, this is a group by the way which is pretty well spread out so it’s not as if this is only a single parish sample size. This is just my perspective, so take it with a grain of salt but as people who have largely grown up in a world flooded with artificial ideas and false platitudes with everything from politicians to advertising, and then being submerged in the horrendous pit that is the Internet, we crave something authentic and The tlm having for the most part developed organically over thousands of years seems much more authentically Catholic to our sensibilities than the reform which wile incorporating some elements of ancient rights was largely developed by a bunch of boomers in the 60s and then forcibly implemented at breakneck speed from the top down, resulting in a liturgical mess which took decades to somewhat clean up. And not to ramble on but it would be really nice if the powers that be in Rome did not treat those of us who prefer older forms of the liturgy, as if we were schismatic for wishing to learn, and teach the faith of our forefathers we are called to be obedient and personally, I would not consider joining a SSPX chapel or some such thing, but it is quite demoralizing to know how the holy C has been treating TLM communities, while allowing all kinds of liturgical abuses under the sun regarding the Novus ordo, and being rather non-interventionist as regards, the open heresy in Germany but I digress.
@@allthenewsordeath5772 And I don’t know any young person, educated or not ,who prefers a Latin Mass. That’s my experience. And I know a lot of them in a lot of parishes. But if some people want to have a Latin Mass somewhere, sometime…I see no harm in it. I don’t want to go to one.
It's also the most perfect use of music for the mass, regardless of what random local music scene that someone grows up with. The documents of Vatican II even say that it should have "pride of place" in the liturgy; it shouldn't be removed and replaced with the local tune of the week
Its appeal isn’t to our sense of culture, but rather to the very soul of every man, irrespective of age, culture, race, or nationality. There is no higher form of music.
This is so accurate. Last week, I went to a Maronite Liturgy (One of the sui iuris churches in communion with Rome) and I have to say, it was so interesting seeing the differences between the Latin Rite and the Maronite Rite. For one, during the consecration (which was said in Aramaic), the people stood and looked at the Host with unwavering attention and more love than I have, for the most part, seen in the Latin Rite. It just goes to show how amazingly diverse the Church can be, and still maintaining reverence.
@@ltfchater I am a cradle Maronite Catholic and I wish it was never latinised with Vatican 2, I would have loved to attend a Traditional Maronite mass every week, instead now to go to TLM
Latín American here: just wanted to say I have been through it all and I just can say: EMBRACE TRADITION!!!! The traditional Roman mass is the highest form of adoration.
@@YiriUbic3793 that’s a different Rite and I’m sure it’s beautiful I’m going to see one when I move back home in a few months. We saw a Maronite Mass a few times it was really nice as well
Not buying that the organ is only for Europeans. I was doing a workshop yesterday at our parish, and there was an organist from Nigeria there, who was really, really good, deeply acquainted with traditional hymnody.
We also have to remember - the Mass isn’t for us, it’s for God. Is understanding most important, or is being One Body, unified, in the Sacrifice of the Mass? How do you explain 80% belief in the real presence back in 1950, to 30% or less today? There are so many resources now to help your understanding on the beauty of the Mass. If we’re going to be One Body, One Church, through the highest form of prayer, there needs to be things addressed in the Ordinary Form today that was clearly not implemented well here in the US. This is why you have people like myself, a revert mind you, being very upset with the lack of reverence, awe, and beauty that owed to God in every Mass that represents our unification in the Body of Christ. Look within the Old Testament in Leviticus - worship was so essential, getting it right was of utmost important, and reverence was owed to God. When that’s not addressed in the Ordinary Form across all of the US and the world, and attacks are made on the Extraordinary Form, which should be very much so represented and incorporated within the Ordinary Form, then you have division, which is going on right now. The Pope nor the Bishops truly understand the severity of this. It’s not the Extraordinary From’s fault, it’s the fact we don’t have a true implementation of the Ordinary Form at all. There still needs be adequate reform here and corrections made.
I have a question for you Casey: Why isn’t the Latin rite just treated like any other cultural liturgy instead of being suppressed as if it is a threat even though many people’s cultural roots in Catholicism are tied to the Latin rite?
I don't go to TLM, but i have to say even though you are right, the truth is that all the people who wants a revent Mass and want to keep the TLM are canceled and persecuted. I saw it in my country, a traditional group of 100 lay people was destroyed because it was directed by 3 friars who celebrated TLM, and the 3 friars were moved into separated states. I saw that in the US, in franciscan Steubenville University the bishop cancelled TLM, when there were 200 students who loved it. There's no doubt II VC in their documents it's reasonable, but there's no mercy from Rome and the hierarchy for those who love tradition.
I'm not surprised. Growing up in the 70s, I witnessed dancing girls, the replacement of the Stations of the Cross with abstract art, and priests who appeared to be sorely missing a pair of roller skates. Protestant hymns, Pentecostal hysteria, and altar ornaments that appeared to be made by kindergarteners on bad biker crank. If they were trying to destroy everything dignified and orthodox about Catholicism, they've succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Now, the Sacrifice of Calvary appears to be entirely overlooked, and an increasing number of Catholics no longer recognize the Real Presence of the Eucharist. Eventually, the Church will simply become like the Anglican Church--where being "with it" is more important than sacred Tradition and theology.
I'm African, Nigerian particularly and I can assure you we can do without the dancing and clapping. The Mass is a sacrifice. It is us all being at the foot of the cross. It should be solemn. We're lucky to be witnesses and to a degree participants in the Mass, but essentially the Mass is Worship to God. It's the Sacrifice of the second Person of the Trinity to God. Doesn't and shouldn't matter what my taste is for the Mass. What matters is giving God the most reverence and not what I feel
May God bless you. The few African Roman Catholics it has been my honor to meet ( A couple from Nigeria, a seminarian from Ghana ) have a sense of true devotion and commitment that is difficult to find here. Despite intrusive and dangerous 'folk preachers' who prey upon the simple, exploit the poor and pervert the Gospel, the sons and daughters of the church have, as the hymn says 'Lift High the Cross' with sacrifice and Honor.
Some churches actually dance and clap more as to them THAT effort is the sacrifice and the worship. Harder you sing or clap = harder your worship. To me worship is a mental thing, so clapping or not clapping or dressing modest or solemnity or dignity (which is a super varied concept) is not something God would mind or prefer. It’s a feeling that you make inside of yourself. My opinion however doesn’t match everyone’s. Some people think that you NEED to dress and act a certain way to produce worship feelings, and any deviation from tradition is sin.
@@yucol5661 It has NOTHING to do with "producing worship feelings', that makes no sense anyway. Feelings aren't a great part of religion or should not be. "Love" in the Christian sense is an ACT OF WILL not essentially a feeling. It is doing what is right to those around you, treating the other as you would be treated. We dress well in church to show RESPECT. Respect for the members of the church, respect for the church itself, respect for the tradition that leads us back to the first of our kind in God's love. By dressing as well as we can it is a way of saying Lord I give my best to you'. If all you have is a pair of jeans with a hole in the crotch and a T-shirt, clean them up the night before, wash your face, come as neat and presentable as you can. People understand. But to come in expensive designer jeans with your arse out...nope. Just nope your way out of there until you have respect for others and for yourself.
I wouldn't do well...I have a fear of clowns. Personally, I enjoyed the TLM. My daughter had a Latin class and she had an assignment to find, attend and write about a Latin Mass. We attended together. And I really enjoyed it. The Mass was full and attended by a variety of ages.
One rite, one way of worshipping. We are united in our style of worship no matter where we are on earth. Adapting local customs to the liturgy creates disunity because each community will see their way of worshipping as superior. The Novus Ordo had the effect of creating division. My home parish has masses in English, Italian and Spanish with a different priest of each mass with their own styles of saying the mass. Each ethnic community interacts with themselves only and each one despises the other. One community decided to fund raise in order to buy a beautiful chalice and matching ciborium and new chasubles as the priest was tired of using a clay chalice and polyester vestments. The same community refuses to allow the other masses to use the chalice and chasubles and locks them away in the closet. The three priests do not get along because each one sees the other as either too liberal or too conservative.
@@reintaler6355 absolutely 100% true but the end result is the same. My point was that having one liturgy in the same language unites rather than divides.
@M My comments are very clearly about the Western Roman Rite since the title of the video has the words “Novus Ordo” in it. The discussion is about “clown masses” which again concerns the Novus Ordo or the Roman Rite. Absolutely no reason to bring in the Eastern Rites to this conversation because again….the video is about the abuses in the Novus Ordo which is found only in the…..yup….you guessed it…the Roman Rite.
Honestly, I have experienced quite a difference in cultures at mass recently. I have been attending mass with American, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, French, Caribbean, and African Catholics lately, and we all participate a little bit differently in the mass. As uncomfortable as it can be due to the differences and being ensure of what is occurring, it is also interesting to see how other culture participate.
Had an experience with this in the Episcopal church. It deeply offended me so that I did not participate. Was dismissed from the choir for not being “on board” with this.
The pastor of my parish, when I graduated from college,decided that clown liturgies were a good thing. It literally was, a circus. No one knew what was going on, anyone who wanted could receive communion, he made up his own words of consecration and sat on the altar to give his homily in full. Clown. Makeup. Red fuzzy wig, big red nose, size 42 shoes that squeaked when he walked in. He had a horn that he pressed when he told a joke (all bad, all really, really inappropriate). As a 20 yr old I was confused and really, really turned off. After two Sunday’s like this, I went to another parish and have been happy there ever since. the Bishop let my pastor know, clearly, that this manifestation of the Liturgy was NOT the intention of VII and he had to knock it off. He did, then he left the ministry. But a lot of people left the parish before he left the ministry. He nearly closed it down. Harm reduction has to be introduced to the seminary so some of these guys, left and right, unfortunately, can be schooled that actions have consequences, in case they didn’t know. Good one. Love your conferences.
Glad you talked about this. I like the traditional mass more but I understand why masses are different. I just wish that the Latin Mass can be made its own Rite or at least have more Novus Ortho in Latin. What led me to the faith wasn't the 10+ years of catholic school it was the Latin Mass. Thought I still mainly go to Novus Ordo, since I would rather support the church that is geographically closest to me.
Why specifically in Latin? If you want to attend a Mass in a language you don't understand, go to one of the ethnic Masses in Spanish, Lithuanian, Polish, German, etc.
I think my brain broke just hearing that this was a thing at some point in time. I'm all for wholesome and energetic reverence, having a passionate sermon is important... but clowns? The very idea makes me so upset, imagining walking in there expecting a sacred mass. Simply seeing the sacraments done with schtick would pull me out of the moment thinking they'd start to pull out whipcream pies and whoopee cushions or something.
You are not alone and you are 100% correct in your revulsion. These abominations must be condemned, not the wishy washy crap in justification being espoused here. This is normally a good Priest but he is so far off the mark here, it just has to be said.
@@josephmaxwell5033 I don't see what you mean by "wishy washy crap in justification". Fr. Casey was explicit in saying "they [Clown Masses] fundamentally shift the focus of the Liturgy from reverence to entertainment and undermine unchangeable aspects of the Liturgy". In whatever context he provided, he is rejecting any justification of them.
@@josephmaxwell5033 Again, how is saying "they... undermine unchangeable aspects of the Liturgy" either accepting or even tolerating? "unchangeable" is not 'wishy washy', it's concrete and definitive.
Thanks Fr Casey makes perfect sense. As a child I grew up attending the Latin Mass and must confess I would get frustrated not understanding what was been said but when the Mass was changed to the vernacular I found it truly a blessing as I’m sure it must be in most parts of the world. Let us remember that scripture commands us to obey our leaders and that they will have to give an account of their teaching and example.
Part of your bias is that you were a child. The mass won't make much sense to a little kid, regardless of language. And the Vatican 2 changes to the mass was NOT just a translation from latin to English. They rewrote almost everything and got rid of 75% of the prayers
If your leaders cause you to sin or actually profess sin, you have no obligation to obey, period. You do not get to say, well Lord it was the Bishop or the Priest or even the Pope that said it was ok and better still, they said it would not be inclusive, if I didn’t provide my obedience. Grasp the nettle that is Synodality and put it all on the fire that will not be extinguished.
I agree wholeheartedly. I was an altar boy as well. I just memorized the Latin. The Latin mass was a big turn off in farming community and the vernacular was warmly welcomed. I do not want to go back for sure. The today mass can be said in Latin and bells etc can be used.
My family once was on kind of a clown mass. They moved into a small German town, where carnival season was a really big thing (much bigger, than in our native country, Hungary). The priest in the parish encouraged people to attend mass in their costumes (so far so good). He held the mass dressed up as a cat and gave a mock homily. My family was so confused, they couldn't say wether it was a valid mass, or just a mess. So they went to the other parish in the town - where mass was held as usual, so it was not a universal thing in that part of Germany, although this is a thing. I also heard, that in that part of the country, they sometimes hold masses at carnival season with raspberry juice and cake, although neither me, nor my family have ever seen such a thing happen.
As a Catholic living in Germany, I've heard of the liturgical abuses you write about. It's not the norm - but it reflects a greater problem. I know of a priest who, last Sunday decided to let the congregation do everything except the words of consecration. He means well (I hope!), but it shows a underlying spiritual and theological error: that the priesthood of all the baptised is the same or similar to the consecrated priesthood. Yet as Fr. Casey rightly said: this is a topic for another video.
So I landed here on a search for “lack of reverence in the Catholic mass”. After what I saw in church today I was so appalled. My family and I ran late for our own parish. So we decided it would be better to not show up late. But to go to a nearby parish to celebrate the mass. The Msgr there was celebrating 40 years since his ordination. A wonderful feat to be sure. But they turned the mass into a music concert. Complete with drums , violins, flutes, a conductor and two cantors that made the mass all about them. About the music and about the priest. God was nowhere to be found. Sure there were readings and a homily. We received the Eucharist. But the whole thing left a horrible impression. Where was the reverence? Where was the worship? The wisdom? Sadly even without the musical production, which is all that mass was. Too many of our parishes have masses that lack the solemnity and reverence that is our Lords due. For here forward I will only be attending TLM. Vatican II has destroyed the church. Not brought us closer to God. But further away.
One of my most joyous moments at Mass was during the recessional at a high Mass TLM. The organ blasting, the choir belting, and the entire congregation singing loudly a very beautiful hymn. I had never heard a parish so full of song. And this after an incredibly solemn moment during the consecration, only the sound of the church bells as the Body of Christ is consecrated on the altar. I have a deep love for the traditional liturgy and for the devotion with which it is celebrated by the priest and with which it is participated in by the laity.
This happened once in my parish when I was in high school. The blow back was impressive. The priest behind it was leader of our youth group, who had a key role in bringing me fully into the faith. He was also a volunteer fireman and a clown. I believe he had good intentions when he did the clown mass, though I admit I never did quite understand what his point was. And looking back, I have to wonder about some of the other stuff he did, like practicing Transcendental Meditation and using secular songs like Elton John's "Daniel My Brother" in the folk Mass. To his credit, when I told him, "Now that I know God is real, what should I do?", he immediately said, "Buy a Bible and read it."
Father, i speak to you as a former Priest from a Portuguese Diocesis. I say: "Former" because i live now in a different state of live. This is my point of view: The problem is not the vatican Council... If you see the "Sacrossantum Concilium" document, you will see that many things that we see in liturgy today are from the period "after" the elaboration and approval of that document. Yet, it is the lack of condemnation of the mistakes and the woke clima inside the churches that are transforming liturgy not in God's celebration, but instead in man's celebration were the persons celebrate themselves. During my priestwood i celebrated as parish priest in the post vatcian II missal, but in private, i celebrated sometimes in the "extraordinary form" and i can tell you: they are totally different. When it is necessary to make this kind of games in the mass to atract people to the church, really bad goes the things in the church. In the Calvary (the Mass is the renewal of the sacrifice of Christ and not "a supper") there were no feast or dance of anything else. To those who told that the liturgical reform was to bring the church to a purity of the times of the catacombs, i ask: in the catacombs they had this? They singed hymns to the Christ, but not this kind of things, nor dancing nor other stuff we see in the church today... As conclusion: i think that the liturgical reform needs a reformation or we will see more and more unefortunate things like this.
Thank you' African masses are beautiful, rich in culture, lots programs for community, and the churches are full on Sundays, holidays, great reverence but also joy. The choirs are great, dancing and clapping express the excitement and joy of the people for God, nothing disrespectful. Africans have their own cultures and views, not everything has to be copied on the West.
One universal Catholic apostolic church. I agree with some of what you say it’s important to remember why we must remain United in faith through the use of one form of the mass.
@@TheBusttheboss I take it that you don’t understand what “one Holy Catholic and apostolic church” means then. I agree that people celebrate differently however, the mass should be the same wherever you go. Glory to God is not for debate. Ask the same question to the Muslin community and see if they incorporate dance in their mosques. Reverent prayer during mass is expected everywhere. After mass go party if you like.
@@blueknight5754 One People, different expression. If i get the oneness that you speak of, why should we party differently? At party time we are not One anymore? Jesus is God, but does He have the same role as the Father or the Holy Spirit? God created diversity and beauty and we want to show Him all of that. The African masses are not a big party, there is reverence or happiness according to the different parts of the liturgy . Very expressive but reverent. Who is to say every mass should be copied on medieval western culture? The first masses were probably in hebrew or aramaic, so maybe we should all go to these ones, not Latin.
the lack of reverence in the novus ordo mass should be an indicator that the catholic church is not in a good state. Not only this, but Francis constantly threatens banning the traditional latin mass outright. Orthodoxy has maintained its divine liturgy
Father--I think you should read and deeply consider all these intelligent comments regarding reverence in liturgies--and even the TLM, which I imagine you oppose and which Vatican II never jettisoned. You don't need clowns to have a diluted, diminished, or eviscerated Mass. Vatican II was marvelously well-intentioned, but the council's effect on liturgy has been a disaster, at least in English-speaking countries (I cannot speak with authority about any of the others). This point was debatable when I entered the Church in the early 1980s when we eradicated silence and thought ill-tuned guitars reverberating in spaces in which they were never meant to be played might attract young people, but no longer. To ignore this is an exercise in evasion. Why do the Episcopalians across the street from my Catholic church get to kneel at an altar rail to receive their communion when I must queue up as though I'm boarding a bus? A small matter? Not really. Please, Father. Most of us don't live around a seminar table. For many of us, Mass is the one hour per week when we have the opportunity to be bathed in the transcendent, not to receive politically-tinged homilies from with-it clergy. Restore the altar rails, strike 'On Eagle's Wings' from the 'songbooks', and encourage the congregations not to attend Mass dressed as though they're off to the mall.
This is a simple explanation why the Apostolic Roman Catholic traditional ways have to be revised to cater to the needs of the different cultures of the members in this universal church, not to be totally lost with them, but immerse ourselves to their culture, integrating it to our faith without twisting our own faith and traditional beliefs, but bringing our brothers and sisters from other cultures towards one true faith in Christ as we resurface from this immersion. In parallelism, Christ came to this world to become Man and die, so we would die in Him and be resurrected in His resurrection.
My pastor, a TOR Friar, told a story about how he went to a Mass in the 1970’s where the priest got up to preach and was in Mime make-up, the priest Mimed the entire homily and sat down.
@TimMcCloskey Welcome home Tim! There is much talk here about forms of the mass…but the true cause for celebration is that you’re here. What joy that you have Christ in the Eucharist and all the other sacraments! I’m praying for you and am so glad you’re back.
I think the distinctions between masses mentioned here are most certainly valid due to very real cultural differences when comparing masses between, say, sub-Saharan Africa and the U.S. However, major differences in style between local parishes can cause issues in unity. I most certainly would forego my parish down the street for an FSSP parish 45 minutes away if some strange, or foreign, liturgical dance was inserted into the liturgy. It encourages parish shopping and people loo
A Council that contained language that promoted secular humanism and secular utopianism, which impicitly denies original sin, is not indisputably fulfilling a hermeneutic of continuity.
One of the persistent manifestations of the post-conciliar world, is folk masses. I remember an unfortunate parish priest in a bid for what his superiors mistakenly thought was relevance, offering such a mass for teenagers in the 1970s. My own church only recently abandoned folk masses. I suppose they were trying to reframe a catacomb experience by way of drippy lyrics and bad Dylan impersonations. Given the wealth of divinely inspired art and music the church was custodian to, it was like forsaking a Cordon Bleu chef in favour of a drive-thru burger.
Where as that was a really good breakdown of your view on the subject, I cannot agree with it. The lack of reverence in the Roman Catholic Church today is certainly because of a departure from tradition. It's not one singular thing however. It's a culmination of things. New doctrines that stealthily override old doctrines, removal of roodscreens, replacing chanting with various forms of modernist secular music (remaimagined to suit worship). I remember the last Roman Catholic mass I went to. A lady came and sat down in front of me, started complaining immediately to her friend and then talked about weird secular things the entire mass. Where do people get an idea that this is an ok way to behave in a church? And the answer is, people are only going to take the church as seriously as it takes itself.
Lots of good points, Fr. Casey. Thank you! I think a lot of the reasons people are more strongly becoming traditionalists, or at least more conservative of Catholics, myself included, is that we want a strong Catholic identity, to be different than the secular realm. Not better than, just more strongly formed on conscience and to have a solid relationship with God. With how hypersexualized our culture has become, and agnostic, we want to combat that secularized influence.
We come to the Church for instruction in the Catholic life and to pay reverence to The Holy Trinity. The Latin Mass is very reverent and it disciplines us. It's not Burger King where you can have it your way.
As a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism, but also as someone who prefers the TLM, I liked this video a lot. The only thing I’d note about the music is that V2 does note in Sacrosanctum Concillium that Gregorian Chant and Polyphany should have pride of place.
Honestly, in my mind, if Vatican II had been implemented correctly, the Novus Ordo Mass would look much more similar to the Traditional Latin Mass. As someone who prefers the old form of the Latin rite, I believe the Novus Ordo can work but I believe a reform of the reform would be needed and more thorough catechesis. I think liturgical dance and other gestures kind've take away what the Mass is. To me, the Mass is leaving this world and entering heaven itself so, while taking in some practices can be applicable and better help the laity, I think it takes away part of the meaning of the Mass. The fact that the Mass is the sacrifice on Calvary represented in modern times definitely makes me believe a solemn form is best suited since all the disciples of Christ seeing him suffer would be solemn. This balance will definitely be a big point for future popes and I think the work of the Magisterium on this issue will continue for a while. God bless, Father Casey!
The book by Peter Kwasniewski, "The Once and Future Roman Rite", really goes into a lot of depth in examining what happened after Vatican II. Annibale Bugnini pursued his own agenda to "reform" the Latin Rite; he pretty much lied to St. Pope Paul VI and sold him a bill of goods. I think the Pope eventually realized that he had been deceived (he gave his "smoke of Satan in the tabernacle" homily in 1972) but thought the Novus Ordo Mass could be made to work. That Clown Masses were even conceived as a good idea, just goes to show that there was a weird giddiness in the Church at the time. I heard a lecture on You Tube by a Catholic priest in which he made the point that he likened some of the behavior within the Church as having PTSD from World War II.
There is a form of Vietnamese chant usually reserved for reciting sutras. It is also used in the recitation of psalms in Catholic masses, and chanted Bible readings. The Church’s adoption of these native traditions has helped my motherland become one of the great bastions of Christendom in Asia.
There are many Catholics out there who accuse their fellow Catholics, who may be a bit more "reverence-minded," of trying to force their personal liturgical preferences on other people, and yet are completely oblivious to the fact that they themselves have been doing that for years. It's a matter of self-growth to take that inward look. Example: personally, I've grown to deeply dislike Mass facing the people ("versus populorum"), because I find that it makes it utterly impossible for me to enter into the beautiful sacrificial mystery and spiritual reality of the Mass. It's so distracting to me. But whenever I talk about ad orientem worship, I'm immediately cut off and scolded that "everybody has their own preferences!" Well, what about mine? Do I not matter in this listening church that accompanies all God's children?
As a father I don’t appreciate the laity participation of the Novus Ordo because I always feel like I’m falling short and my inability to fulfill my part frustrates me. The organic growth of the TLM, the culmination of generations celebrating the Mass and perfecting it, reverence is built in and it is objectively better. But the fact that Heaven and earth converge at every type of Mass makes all Masses utterly AWEsome.
Thank you Father, perhaps you could explain something to me. I don't understand why reasonable cultural adaptations are allowed, but the celebration of the TL M is being squashed. It seems to me that they are two sides of the same coin.
I was ordained in 84 and continue in parish work. I share My whole VatII priesthood like this. The N.O. demands a certain sense of performance on the part of the priest. If the priest is not 'performing', the liturgy will be flat and dead. The big problem is when the liturgy becomes a vehicle for the performer. The Preformer becomes center of the liturgy, I see this happening again. I also celebrate the Old Mass, there is no performer, the liturgy IS the focus. As a priest of almost 40 years I can say, the old is much better than the new.
If you think clown is bad, what do you think of priests using a squirt gun to bless someone? Three years ago, during the height of the pandemic, Father Timothy Pelc of Detroit, Michigan to bless parishioners. In 2013, Father Humberto Alvarez of Mexico used a super soaker to bless the congregation! There are just some things not meant for masses.
I think the answer to where the line lies can be found in a quote from Padre Pio: “In Calvary, there were those applauding Christ's death: soldiers and demons.” Our actions, whatever they are, should reflect what the mass actually is. It is a celebration yes, but a solemn one. We are celebrating a sacrifice. As a historical example: the first ecumenical council prohibited kneeling (a penitential gesture) on Sundays because mass on Sunday was the celebration of our salvation. Obviously, in the west, we do kneel, but that is because there are differences in cultures. In the case of the west, kneeling was also seen as respectful rather than just penitential, so it did not fall under the prohibition. That being said, our salvation came at a great cost that I don't think should be partied over, as Padre Pio says. I guess my thoughts are: There can be different cultural variations to the mass. In one culture clapping and dancing may be appropriate, but we should not be applauding as the demons did, lest we lose sight of what the mass is.
I always wonder why the Roman Catholics didn't just allow their traditional Mass to be translated into the vernacular and leave it at that. The Orthodox have their Divine Liturgy in their vernacular languages.
Hey, Breaking in the habbit! This is your brother in Christ, I am enjoying your videos so far(even as an orthodox christian). I would love for you to come to Riga. It's beutifull here. I hope you would see this comment! ☦
"...cultural adaptations that honor the genus of a culture for the use of evangelization and active participation while still maintaining the dignity and underlying tradition of the Liturgy..." A noble goal to be sure, unless, you want to celebrate the TLM.
Born and raised in Africa I remember our mothers the ladies shouting trills of joy during Easter vigil when the priest shouts "The Lord is risen" as a child my whole body would shake and seeing rears in my mothers eyes I would feel the presence of our Lord in our midst, when ever I remeber those days my eyes well with tears of joy and gladness, you expressed it right father !
Im not even Catholic, but i was going through a rough time some years ago and stepped into a mass. I just wanted something reverent and to connect to God in prayer. The mass started with the congregation clapping to an electric guitar. I was repelled by it and quietly left.
Amen!! Very well balanced and sourced. Thank you, father. One of the major themes of the gospels is that reverence is primarily an interior virtue and not an exterior action. Often time reverence can look like a woman washing Jesus's feet with her hair, or a tax collector, climbing a tree, or friends, pulling the roof off, and lowering their friend through, or a tax collector, beating his breast and shouting at the top of his lungs. And often times it was those who prioritized strict liturgical adherence who Jesus criticized as whitewashed tombs, who looked nice and pretty on the outside but were spiritually dead on the inside. Now that's not to say that anything goes during liturgy or that it's not important to follow liturgical rubrics, but it should give us pause when judging what is reverent and what is not. Man judges by appearances, but the Lord sees the heart.
Do you really think that Our Lord did not practice reverence to His Father when he took part in the Temple? Can you imagine Him countenancing pagan or street activities in Jewish sacrifices?
@@carolynkimberly4021 i absolutely think Jesus practiced reverence. My point (and frequently Jesus’ point) was that reverence often doesn’t look like what we think it does.
You are talking a load of absolute rubbish! Half baked with juvenile theology. Make up anything you want and form your own Church, schism is inevitable with this level of nonsense. This crap is an Abomination, a Sacrilege abhorrent in the extreme! Jesus took a whip to those who mocked and misused the Temple and that was just over money exchange. Get your story ready for trying to justify this excrement to Our Blessed Lord. He knows the very fabric of your being. Oh, let’s just look for a deeper meaning, nonsense! Its a mockery of the Last Supper, the institution of the Blessed Sacrament, the Sacrifice on Calvary and destroys any semblance of devotion.
One of the best videos explaining this topic. I remember seeing pictures of these masses and being somewhat scandalized because it just didn’t look right, but thankfully this helped me look more into the masses and the faith. Reverence is needed in the mass because God deserves reverence and more🙏🏼
In the Philippines there are Jamaican priests that come to visit and stay for a period of time. I love attending their masses because of the music. It’s very uplifting.
Cardinal Gordon Gray of Scotland said in his memoirs that he voted for the vernacular Mass because it would help churches in the Soviet bloc. Priests in these countries could not address the faithful from the pulpit. Now the faithful could at least hear the liturgy in the common tongue. Yet this does not explain why the Latin vernacular was shut down ruthlessly. Michael J Matt (The Remnant : TH-cam) addresses this at length.
The reason I dont like the NO as much as the TLM or Eastern Catholic Masses is that the roman-catholic church is the only one which abandoned its mass. While as I look at the other rites even the Anglican rite which is a valid catholic mass I just prefer the reverence I can find there while in NO I find clapping and hopping around sometimes and its not for me as an introvert. Lex orandi lex credendi.
I still go to Novus Ordo because it’s just what’s closest when you live in a town as small as mine, but I do agree that liturgical abuse is a thing. NO wasn’t meant for abuse like this, but a priest can’t be blessing people with a guitar. Guitars should stay with the cantors if they are going to be used in mass.
There doesn't appear to be any consistency. The main Novus Ordo Sunday Mass in our parish can contain extensive Latin or none, on a week-by-week basis with no obvious motivation for the difference.
@@DoctorDewgong if we want to be traditional, surely Aramaic and Hebrew should be used for most of the prayers, and the Gospel be read in Greek. The homily makes most sense to remain in the Vernacular since each one is supposed to be an original piece based on the readings, and context of that Mass.
Oh my - I’ve never heard of this until today. You are so well spoken and tackled this topic with grace and truth. Thank you for keeping me from running lol - honestly if I walked into a clown mass - I may go to the Orthodox churches. We do have diverse cultures at my church - I’m at The Grotto in Portland Oregon. I really enjoyed the special ceremony we had for Our Lady of Guadalupe which included some Aztec dancers. It was beautiful 🕊️✝️
I have not attended the Novus Ordo Mass for years. Father Casey should read (if he hasn't already) Father Anthony Cekada's "Work of Human Hands: a Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI".
I am a convert to the Catholic Church, I became a full member in 2014. I’m a TradCat, but not an angry one. I love the Novus Ordo Mass but I personally prefer the Traditional Latin Mass. For me, the TLM bring me closer to our Lord Jesus. But I love Vatican II, I read the documents of it and of course it’s a valid Council. I am strongly against anyone who slams the Ordinary Form, because it isn’t the Extraordinary Form, I also am harsh with Sedevacantist’s because they are breaking the Church. I don’t always agree with Pope Francis, but he IS the valid Pope, Successor of Saint Peter, and Vicar of Christ. He’s never taught heresy’s, so he’s the valid Pope. I just wish we could have more opportunities to keep the Extraordinary Form going, along with the Ordinary Form of Mass. Both are valid and bring us to Our Lord!! God bless you Father Casey!!
To me the Tridentine Mass has too much of what I think is unnecessary frou-frou. Also, I want to be able to understand the language of the Mass, unless I am visiting a foreign country. I am sure The Last Supper celebrated by Christ did not have fancy robes, sashes, chalices, etc. I am sure it was quite simple. There can be beauty in simplicity.
@@ulysse9471 "noble simplicity" is a catchphrase that was abused to get rid of anything and everything that was artistically pleasing to be replaced by actual garbage. I've seen chasubles made from everything ranging from pastel felt butterflies to an actual burlap sack with "shalom" and peace signs embroidered on it. Beautiful murals emblazened across countless parish church sanctuaries in the US were sloppily painted over with flat beige paint. The sanctuary furnishings that families in past generations spent months' worth of their annual income on, were torn out and thrown into dumpsters by their grandchildren. This kind of argument just comes across to others like "we shouldn't give God nice things" Also, "I want to understand the language of the Mass, unless I'm visiting a foreign country." What selfishness! You realize people from other countries can travel to you too, right? This only reinforces the idea that every parish should have a Latin liturgy. Heck, I don't even need to travel abroad to go to parishes with other cultures. Why not have Latin liturgies at the predominately Viatnamese parish in my city? Or Latin liturgies at the predominately Mexican parish just a few minutes' drive away?
@@ulysse9471 Oh definitely, I am absolutely looking for "theatrics" Just like my intellect needs to be encouraged to dwell on holy things (with good spiritual reading and daily scripture), so too my senses need to be encouraged to dwell on the things of God. And chances are, unless someone is a Carthusian monk who has dwelled in the inner depths of contemplation and can manage just fine with austere worship, they too need to have sights/smells/sounds/etc. that encourage their senses to dwell on divine realities. I'm glad I at least have the humility to realize that I am but a spiritual child, one of Jesus' "little ones" who can always use something tangible to remind me of what I'm experiencing when I'm at Mass. I'm grateful that you seem to have ascended beyond the need for anything like that! What a gift that must be!
As an Orthodox Christian I can understand the idea of adding their culture to worship, but practicing traditions from a culture that is not my own is showing respect for the Church Fathers who came before us and paved the way for the Church today. I’m worshipping in the same way as the early saints.
Father Casey, please make a video about the sudden drop in religious vocations after Vatican II and the reactions to Vatican II. People need to understand the difference, and people need to know that the TLM exists
If vaticanum II is to blame, then why in other churches there was also drop? Or maybe it is not about V2, but about the things that happened with societies at those times? also be careful - today there is more catholics on this world than there was before.
I’m blessed that I’ve found a parish nearby where Novus Ordo is celebrated beautifully, and with the dignity and joy the Lord deserves. I have to drive 25 minutes to get there, but it’s worth it. The local parish doesn’t have “innovations,” but the Mass feels sloppy and not heartfelt.
This video made me think about one think. Living in central Europe I think most of masses here can be called reverent. We almost always have organ music, the masses are aesthetic. It took me a year of university to finally figure out that I do actually believe in God and want to attend church. After that I went to a nearby dominicanian parish. I attend it for quite a while. It is NO and I don;t have any problems with that - I think that novus ordo can be a beautiful way of worshiping God. A few weeks ago during winter break I visited my hometown and I finally realised what was putting me of from the church there. People are not serious about God there. And I don't mean serious as sad - there are many moments in the mass that we should be joyful, but serious in a sense that they were not taking God seriously. I started attending TLM when I visit my family because they do actually care, you can see that they want to be there, that is something important for them and that they put some effort into it. So I don't believe it is the TLM that has something magical into it (but I guess young people want some tradition and same as buildings from 1960s were once considered modern people still admire acient architecture). It is the feeling that the people actually care, that they put effort into celebration something that is really important for them
Fr. Casey, you're definitely on track with your purpose - focusing on helping US focus on Mass experiences that build a true, genuine reverence of our Lord. You nail it in terms of how those Mass adaptations in non-European cultures not only don't go against the calling of Vatican II, but powerfully evoke a sense of the Lord's presence for us to embrace, revere and love. (And oh yeah, no clown Masses, please.) The challenge I'm seeing is that it doesn't feel like there's an openness to the carryover of cultural traditions, and even modern ways of expression, here in the U.S. In a nation that is 40% non-White, we need to not only have openness to other cultures' ways of embracing God in faith, but in a nation with 75 millions Catholics and perhaps as many different ways of encountering our Lord, it's important we allow for that as much within our borders as outside them. Two weekends ago, I experienced Mass here in a Black neighborhood that used traditional African-American gospel traditions both in hymns and in Catholic Mass parts that were more effective in helping me encounter the Lord in my own personal journey, that was filled with more Holy Spirit, than any organ-led liturgical music. It also included liturgical dance that was far from sexual, but absolutely increased the sense of worshipfulness. All without either a desire or effectiveness in being simply performance. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with using music that evokes a sense of warmth. Because God is not only the Alpha and Omega, but the brother who meets us where we are. There is something to be said in creating an atmosphere that says "I'm here to encounter you." Frankly, baroque organs and traditional hymns often don't pull that off. Perhaps the question to ask: Is the music, the dance, the tone of communication in the homily, both desiring and effective in building a sense of worship in us? A contemplative guitar-and-voice, a Black gospel choir, a Gregorian chant fully in Latin, all can evoke reverence and worship IF DONE RIGHT. White suburban ladies and Black women in traditional African garb can both dance and sing in true praise of Christ, so long as that is the sole goal and what is truly spawned in the worshiper. We just have to be sure we are accurately desiring and effective in building a sense of encounter and worship.
Surely all cultures have unique modes of offering praise to God. Some Indian tribes in North America received a permission from Rome to chant the propers at High Mass in their local tongue - to the same Gregorian melodies prescribed for those days - a wonderful expression of inculturation. However, we must heed the writings of the Holy Pontiff, Pius X, who sought to restore plainchant to its proper, preeminent status in sung liturgies. The organ is beautiful, and indeed surpasses all other instruments in its ability to evoke awe and emotion, save one: the human voice.
@@defensorfidei7535 Same writings, same document: “On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir.” We rightfully don’t heed that part of Saint Pius X’s writings. And he never said in that document the organ surpasses all other instruments. He was simply allowing it to be used in Mass and shutting out other instruments that he said were used in profane music. Including pianos. There can be many right ways to musically express one’s love for God, just as a body has many parts. The Eucharist feeds all with the True Presence, but a brain needs different nutrients than a pancreas. So it is with unique human beings. Contemplative prayer and Biblically-led meditation feeds some souls more effectively than charismatic prayer. The writings of St. Ignatius and of St. Thomas Aquinas each have bushels of inspired truth, but one may more effectively reach one soul than another. You find an organ feeds your soul more than mine. Nothing wrong with that. But it feeds some differently than it does other people. The Church has rightfully, by the Holy Spirit, embraced the need to be present to other cultures besides the European-centered of past centuries to embrace the liturgy. Time we do it now with music.
@@defensorfidei7535 I’ve attended plenty of masses that included tons of native customs. No Gregorian chant in sight. Nice singing and dancing. But a lot of natives here bailed on the Church as soon as the American Indian Religious Freedom Act went through in 1978. Bear Dances trump Gregorian chant, it seems, and they didn’t need permission from Rome to do anything anymore. The tribal elders were put back as leaders of the tribal faith as they should be. I don’t think it had much to do with Vatican 2,though. Probably had more to do with decades of various kinds of abuse from the beginning, including quite a few of the local “ missionary” priests getting rape-y towards the kids for several generations. Bad foundations make for failing edifices. Catholicism is dead now in many families. Folks haven’t been baptized for two generations. They’re happy with the ancient faith. The ones that remain want more input. PS…we’re not rich enough to have or maintain an organ. Those things are expensive and we have other needs.
@Defensor Fidei Gregorian chant was reintroduced by Pope Pius X because prior to that the music at the Tridentine Mass had become orchestral productions. He was reigning in abuses in the Tridentine Liturgy. This is why we read in his 1903 Moto Proprio "Tra Le Sollecitudini" that you are referencing, "The ancient traditional Gregorian Chant must, therefore, in a large measure be restored to the functions of public worship, and the fact must be accepted by all that an ecclesiastical function loses none of its solemnity when accompanied by this music alone. Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times."
@@maryreinhardt8661 dramatic musical settings for the common of the Mass aren’t an abuse - incorporation of secular motifs into sacred music is, and such abuse was addressed by St. Pius V. St. Pius X merely restored plainchant to its place of precedence. It’s not as if it disappeared… bear further in mind that most churches, especially in mission country, may have struggled to find skilled musicians in the first place, thus ruling out the music of the Liber and choral or orchestral masterpieces. This latter fact is the reason why Masses were sung with Rossini’s propers or even recto tono.
My mother was one of the clowns in our parish when I was a kid in the late 80s. It was a big reason I left the faith at 13. It was so undignified. When I returned to the Faith in 2018, I gravitated to the TLM because of its reverence & finally feeling like I was building my house on rock instead of sand.
I don’t blame you that lack of reverence is why I am becoming orthodox ☦️
🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠🤡🐠
A belated welcome home, brother. God bless you eternally! 🙏❤️🙏
You have good taste and good sense, even at 13 years old!
@Taylor Rowe ... which is why the Vatican and Bishops should continue to allow the celebration of the Extraordinary Form.
A lot of parishes in the Midwest hold "polka masses", thinking that the use of corny polka music expresses their Polish culture. The people who want this are always three or four generations removed from Poland, and when I've shown videos of those polka masses to people who are actually from Poland, they're shocked and appalled. One of them wanted to know why "music for getting drunk" was being played at holy mass.
I'm Polish, I live in Poland all of my life - Polka is not only foreign to us, but it is not even our music genre - it's Czech music.
@PRKP Not to mention that it's completely unheard of - like completely - to play nonsense music during the celebration of Mass.
Are these people insane ..?
Thank you for sharing this.
Being from the Midwest, I can say that the polka masses are not frequent. They are usually held in concert with some local celebration or fund raising event.
The Polish Parish where I normally go for English Mass definately does Not do this at their Polish Mass. their Polish mass is very respectful other than some ordinary NO customs.
Father respectfully Vatican II called for Latin to have pride of place in both oral and sung form in the mass. This was completely set aside by the ill intended reformers. 😢
Father Casey,
I would appreciate your squaring this truth with what you said about Latin and Gregorian chant, given what Vatican II said about them and pride of place. I am having trouble reconciling it all.
I'm an American ex-pat living in Europe. I attend the TLM with a diverse congregation. We find taking part in this ageless liturgy in the beautiful common Latin language a unifying force.
A language no one understands
@@RPlavo all you need is the missal, it’s very easy to follow along! And also, learning Latin is a wonderful thing!
@@RPlavo Latin is not difficult to understand if you are willing to make a litlle effort. As an International Language, it is certainly easier to understand than Esperanto, which never really got off the ground..
Yeah I prefer the TLM, I find nothing wrong with it as well! Why try to fix something so wonderful that’s not broken, only to really end up breaking it?
@@RPlavo I am a USCitizen in Mexico and go to a Spanish Mass several times a week. I barely understand the homily and I remember the Mass replies in Latin. The Language is the very least, of the problematic changes especially emptying out of the Liturgy.
The Novus Ordo (the shorter Daily Mass version) helped me come into the Catholic faith when I started attending last summer & I'm close to confirmation on Easter Vigil nest month! I haven't attended a Latin Mass yet but I look forward to doing that this year.
Try to go to a High Mass but the Low, not-sung Mass is beautiful too. Reverence lies in the Apostolic Mass itself, not in the attempts of men. The Latin Mass converted the world. When it was fragmented and allowed to be influenced by Protestantism, mission activity was abandoned and the very essence of the Mass and priesthood became clouded with heterodox theology. God bless you on your journey
Im also being confirmed next month. I started in Novus Order, which I have no problem with, but I was lucky enough to attend one Latin Mass. Its amazing ! Nothing compares to the feeling of the Latin Mass, I HIGHLY recommend going to one as soon as you can. You won't regret it !
Hurry up, because the current powers that be in Rome have a inexplicable and unabiding hatred for the TLM.
Congratulations on Confirmation. Welcome to your Catholic family.
@@sharonwalker6595 Thank you ! Glad to be home !
Thank God I’m Ukrainian Catholic. The Eastern Rite has NO folk masses, No clown masses, NO tablecloth vestments. We are as we were..reverent, spiritual and when you go to liturgy, you feel like you’ve been to liturgy.
I ‘m Roman rite all my life and have always felt I was at liturgy
Has the Ukrainian Eastern Rite fragmented from Eastern Orthodox (Russia) due to the invasion?
@@infotecharytipperary1827 the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) received a TOMOS from Constantinople because the Russian church uncanonically annexed the Ukrainian church a long time ago. Now they are trying to take back all the property the Russian church has stolen
@@infotecharytipperary1827
[First post of 2 posts]
Eastern Rite (aka: Byzantine
Rite, Greek Rite, Uniate Church)
are part of the *Roman*
*Catholic* church.
The Eastern *Orthodox* Church
in Ukraine is split between two
Patriarchates
[SEE: My second post (that is
set up as a reply to this post)
as the continuation of this post]
@infotecharytipperary1827
[Second post of 2 posts]
The Eastern *Orthodox* Church
in Ukraine is split between two
Patriarchates
1.) "UOC-MP" ("Ukrainian Orthodox
Church, Moscow Patriarchate")
The primate of the UOC-MP is
*Metropolitan Onufriy* (title:
"Metropolitan of Kyiv and
All Ukraine.") He is an ethnic
Ukrainian
2.) "AOCU" (aka "O.C.U.")
is the Autocephalous
Orthodox Church of Ukraine",
"The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was established by a unification council on 15 December 2018. The council voted to unite the existing Ukrainian Orthodox churches (UOC-KP, UAOC and parts of the UOC-MP) through their representatives, on the basis of complete canonical independence. The primate of the Church is styled the "Metropolitan of Kyiv and all Ukraine". The unification council elected Epiphanius I as its first primate. The Church was officially granted autocephaly on 5 January 2019 by decree of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholomew I" - Wikipedia
Ecumenical Patriarch,
Bartholomew of
Constantinople is
the "first among equals"
of the Eastern Orthodox
Churches.
The see is located in the
Turkish city of Istanbul.
Under the Eastern Roman/
Byzantine empire, the capital
of the empire and the see
was the ancient city of
Constantinople (now called
Istanbul)
I love the Traditional Latin Mass, it is joyful, AND beautiful, Solemn AND life giving.
That's cool! It's totally okay to like it!
@@cseelinger You are employing moral relativism, when in fact, the Traditional Latin Mass *is* the ONLY form which ought to be celebrated in the Roman rite. The point is that the Novus Ordo was founded on Protestant notions, led by Masons & Protestants, and no good fruit has come from it. In fact, we have had a host of liturgical abuses come from it, when no liturgical abuses came from the TLM.
@@shawnmurphy7778I’ll do Aramaic instead thank you
@@shawnmurphy7778 also catholic means universalist so the new version is more catholic than ever before lol. But orthodox historically was almost always more catholic than the varicanist
It seems that people hate Novus Ordo less for what Novus Ordo contains and more about how it has become synonymous with liturgical abuse.
@@DoctorDewgongThat's just untrue and most of what was "added" is adapted tradition that was used in liturgy even before the Tridentine reform
@@DoctorDewgong The Mass of the Ages documentary is propaganda with lots of fear mongering that uses very selective facts and history in the service of that propaganda. You are not getting an honest picture from that documentary.
@@DoctorDewgong Not true
There is no such thing as the Mass of 5he Ages. It was Greek the first 300 years.
@@davidhawkins5329 Greek until the Latin vernacular was added
Thank you, Fr. Casey. There is room for cultural expression of joy in the Mass, but judiciously. I live in a part of the US where many Mexican immigrants have settled. Our parish vividly celebrates Our Lady of Guadalupe, a feast day I knew little about growing up. The color and reverence and devotion I see each year as the statue of Our Lady is carried through the streets is awe inspiring. It brought me to tears the first time I saw it, my heart was so full of the infectious joy these people were sharing with our whole community, Christian and non-Christian alike. There wasn't a frown to be found on anyone! 🙏❤🔥
But there isn't room for "woke," permissive progressivism, or multiculuralism and diversity as these are not pro-Catholic.
@@evelynmcewen8874 wow. What “ culture” do you accept, dear?
@CM Not "woke", unGodly culture, that's for sure. Given my post before this, pal, and your response to it, I think it's obvious what sad kind you support. Muting you as your comments are no longer worth my time.
@@evelynmcewen8874 no surprise there. Predictable. Lol. Speaking of sad…what a sad life…dumping on other people’s joy.
@@evelynmcewen8874 multi-culturalism and diversity are completely catholic. You could join Norse Paganism, if you hate diversity.
Father can you pray for me, I am joining seminary. I feel very heavy about the abuse crisis here in Ireland. I really love the church and want to try be a priest like you, I am a good bit older than most people discerning priesthood around your age so thank you.
Go only to a Traditional seminary. You don't want to end up thinking laymen are your equals or that one religion is as good as another. The FSSP seminary is in Germany.
My parish used to have Irish missionaries to run schools. They got along well with non christian parents and politicians who wanted their children enrolled in christian schools and to continue studies abroad.
@@carolynkimberly4021 I won't Carolyn don't worry I'm part of a good community ran by Dan Burke.
@@TheChurchofBreadandCheese So happy to hear it. Deo Gratias
I belong to a group that has a Holy Hour for vocations. I will pray for you.
It is interesting how so many people here talk about how the latin mass brought them to church or back to church. I have heard many of these stories myself. I think it's time to reflect on that fact in regards to the second council.
I've been Catholic my whole life. This is the first time I've heard of a "clown Mass."
Hard for me to wrap my head around that one.
I attended my first TLM in 2003 (midnight Christmas Mass). I was in awe about the whole experience. I remember watching Mass on EWTN prior to then. My Latin is rather rusty at best. But, the Masses on EWTN did help me with Latin. This experience in part led me to my Confirmation on Easter Vigil 2005.
The kicker about my Confirmation (via RCIA) is that it took place 20 years and 1 day after my First Communion (during CCD). I chose Padre Pio as my Confirmation Saint. Pio is probably a very tall act to follow. Also, the fact that John Paul the Great was called Home the week afterward I felt was not a coincidence.
Padre Pio and John Paul II, pray for us!
Praying for the Restoration of Traditional Latin Mass
Child of God, pray instead that Jesus returns soon in spirit, to deliver us from all these errors of mankind’s foolishness.😊
And traditional priests 🙏🏼
it's more traditional than you might realize...
Chicken Dance after Communion?
Our priests, Father Morris (our Pastor) and Father Ward are conservative and traditional. We have a Latin Mass at our Mission church, St. Mary just outside of Ironton.@@Titadj
"if you wouldn't do it at the foot of the cross, don't do it in mass."
I think that is a good rule of thumb. Different cultures will show reverence in different ways, and that is fine. As long as the actions in mass that are done are legitimately reverent in that culture, I think that's a beautiful thing. But I believe that anyone in charge of mass needs to be asking that question.
I wouldn't sing the alleluia at the foot of the cross
I can’t deny how my life has changed within the last few years since attending the TLM. It being taken away from my parish church and the potential right to say it as a priest hurts.
It is not only unjust but illegal and evil what Francis and Roche are trying to to do. I belong to an FSSP parish which seems safe for now. But if the destroyer comes for us, we will go back to the catacombs if necessary. Go to the SSPX if necessary. Surely, the next Pope will set things right. Evil will not triumph.
The form wasn't the problem. It was the pride and attitude my way or highway of ridgedness.
@@wednesdayschild3627 So it was right to punish the whole group of faithful over the sins of some people who don't represent the whole? Is this the synodal way, accompanying the faithful, showing mercy, and listening, as the Pope preaches us to do?
@@wednesdayschild3627 That is nonsense. Francis blames EWTN and Taylor Marshall for persecuting faithful Catholics.
@@wednesdayschild3627 I don’t think that’s universally true. Seems like the whole gets punished for the minority’s mistakes.
As someone who definitely leans toward traditionalism and attends the Tridentine Mass almost exclusively, I do appreciate the careful way you handled this topic… offering concern about flagrant liturgical abuse, while simultaneously advocating for balanced means of reverent enculturation.
A very honest and unbiased video, Father. It is important that any Mass show reverence to God. Different cultures will worship in a variety of ways. Nevertheless, common sense should be used. I personally greatly enjoy going to ethnic Masses. They remind me of the connection that all Catholics have with one another.
Only about 13% of the original language from the ancient Mass was retained in it; the most prominent ommission was the great focus of the sacrifice of our Lord Calvary replaced with the focus on the supper: a table replaced an altar.
Annibale Bugnini brought in 6 protestants to Vatican II to at least receive input from them on changes made to the mass, with at least 2 of the 6, one a Lutheran, in approval of the changes.
In the end, when abuses occur, the higher-ups will say it shouldn't be occurring, that it isn't in Vatican II, but often nothing gets done.
But when it is in Vatican II the mass is to be said in Latin it's ignored.
@@evelynmcewen8874 just stop already
Constant criticism by all you rad trads makes me want to become a Protestant!
I was raised on the Conservative Novus Ordo in Poland. I LOVE, DEEPLY DEEPLY DEEPLY LOVE OUR LORD and i learned to LOVE Him in the Novus Ordo Church.
The graces are here...just as much as un the Traditional Latin Mass
I love Latin, which comes easy to me because i speak polish, and i attended the Traditional Latin Mass but all this fighting mostly by people like you made me leave the TLM.
And yes, i miss it, but i will Not attend it again because i want to WORSHIP our Lord instead of POLITICIZE THE MASS!
SO STOP ALREADY! PLEASE
ALL THIS FIGHTING WITHIN THE CHURCH HARMS OUR LORD MUCH MORE THEN THE LIBERAL MASSES.....IF THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE WHO LOVE OUR LORD............
Ask yourself, are you better then other Catholics just because you attend the TLM and trash the Novus Ordo?
If your answer is yes then you live in the mortal sin of pride....which is sadly extremely prominent among the Rad trads. Sadly.
I know because i was very guilty of this myself for a while and begged God to forgive me.
I have met many beautiful, loving Catholics in the Novus Ordo Churches, unfortunately i only met few very very loving and accepting people at the TLM Churches, especially SSPX, most were extremely critical, political, often close hearted and even mean people wgo gossip and criticize the whole Catholic Church, all Popes and think they are the Only saintly Catholics.....wow.....how wrong.........
And by the way, the Protestant invited to the Vatican II Counsel were NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE.
SO STOP ATTACKING THE COUNSEL IF YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS. May God help you see....
May God help us all.
@@marzena3396815 You are clearly triggered and resorting to name-calling, projecting, painting others with a broad brush, making things up, talking nonsense, and spewing venom against them when facts are presented about the changes made.
Stop being rigid towards others, hateful, and not showing accompaniment.
The division being stoked was and is AGAINST the Latin mass and those who attend it, and has been ongoing against them for 60 years, and not from those who support the TLM.
Francis is waxing protestant:
Francis was in hearty approval of both the Vatican Martin Luther/Melanchton stamp and statue being rolled out and he even declared the church agrees with Luther on Justification when it never did before as hundreds of years worth of popes and saints are against him on this matter having sided with the Council of Trent instead.
And Francis was in disobedience to infallible councils by participating in a service with pro-aBoRt, pro-gay marriage, heretical Lutherans in Sweden as councils have said this is not allowed.
And the 6 protestants at V2 weren't brought there for window dressing but to offer up suggestions, and at least 2 of them were apparently happy with the changes.
My mom tells me the story of when my great-uncle took my great-grandmother to a clown Mass... apparently she cried for a very long time after.
God love her for her poor broken heart. ❤
I mean, if you can’t pay attention to a mass dressed as a clown I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe you aren’t focusing enough on the internal part and care more about the outside performance of decency and solemnity? Like how some people care more about gold decorations and fancy clothes than about worshiping and prayer. While to some people the expensive gold decorations ARE a form of worship. So maybe some propel NEED the outside dressings and solemnity to be able to focus and do what they need to do
@y Clown "Masses" are NOT in God's plan
@yclown Masses are sacriligeous
@yclown Masses are sacriligeous
Does anyone else find it ironic how older people generally prefer the new mass but younger people generally prefer the TLM?
People who can remember the Latin Mass in non-revival form are becoming fewer every year. As an occasional TLM worshipper, Latin Masses seem to have a representative demographic. I think the Holy Father is mistaken in his fear of them as hotbeds of reaction and schism, if indeed that is what he thinks.
A lot of young people who grew up with guitar masses feel like they were robbed of the opportunity to experience real Catholic tradition and worship while growing up. And they have a point
I haven’t found that to be true. Most young people don’t even know the mass was said in Latin and could care less about it. One young woman I talked to ,when I casually mentioned something about a Latin Mass , refused to believe me. She said “ Latin? Like the Romans spoke? That makes no sense…why would the Church do that?” And gently accused me of joking with her. I told her to go research it if she liked.
But pretty sure she isn’t missing a Latin mass and likes the Mass just as it is.
@@c.m.cordero1772
Ignorance is not preference, it simply means people have done a bad job in educating young Catholics.
Sacrosanctum consilium not to mention most church tradition before Vatican II speaks of the primacy of both the Latin language and of musical forms such as Gregorian chant in the liturgy, I think a reform of the reform is necessary in order to properly reconcile things, but that is a different discussion.
I can only speak for myself and the handful of young Catholics I know, but we are in the 18 to 25 demographic and almost to the man we preferred the TLM, this is a group by the way which is pretty well spread out so it’s not as if this is only a single parish sample size.
This is just my perspective, so take it with a grain of salt but as people who have largely grown up in a world flooded with artificial ideas and false platitudes with everything from politicians to advertising, and then being submerged in the horrendous pit that is the Internet, we crave something authentic and The tlm having for the most part developed organically over thousands of years seems much more authentically Catholic to our sensibilities than the reform which wile incorporating some elements of ancient rights was largely developed by a bunch of boomers in the 60s and then forcibly implemented at breakneck speed from the top down, resulting in a liturgical mess which took decades to somewhat clean up.
And not to ramble on but it would be really nice if the powers that be in Rome did not treat those of us who prefer older forms of the liturgy, as if we were schismatic for wishing to learn, and teach the faith of our forefathers we are called to be obedient and personally, I would not consider joining a SSPX chapel or some such thing, but it is quite demoralizing to know how the holy C has been treating TLM communities, while allowing all kinds of liturgical abuses under the sun regarding the Novus ordo, and being rather non-interventionist as regards, the open heresy in Germany but I digress.
@@allthenewsordeath5772 And I don’t know any young person, educated or not ,who prefers a Latin Mass.
That’s my experience. And I know a lot of them in a lot of parishes.
But if some people want to have a Latin Mass somewhere, sometime…I see no harm in it.
I don’t want to go to one.
Maybe gregorian chant doesn't speak to every culture, but even in Europe now it is very rare to find a mass celebrated with gregorian.
It's also the most perfect use of music for the mass, regardless of what random local music scene that someone grows up with. The documents of Vatican II even say that it should have "pride of place" in the liturgy; it shouldn't be removed and replaced with the local tune of the week
Its appeal isn’t to our sense of culture, but rather to the very soul of every man, irrespective of age, culture, race, or nationality. There is no higher form of music.
It doesn’t speak to a lot of people.
@@c.m.cordero1772 your personal preferences are not part of the conversation for what is best for mass
@@c.m.cordero1772 Not all who heard the call of Our Lord followed Him.
This is so accurate. Last week, I went to a Maronite Liturgy (One of the sui iuris churches in communion with Rome) and I have to say, it was so interesting seeing the differences between the Latin Rite and the Maronite Rite. For one, during the consecration (which was said in Aramaic), the people stood and looked at the Host with unwavering attention and more love than I have, for the most part, seen in the Latin Rite. It just goes to show how amazingly diverse the Church can be, and still maintaining reverence.
I love the maronite mass. I heard it was very latinized with Vatican II, give me great curiosity as tô how it was before.
Awesome.
This was the way Latin Catholics prayed too before novus ordo came along.
I love the Maronite way of giving the Sign of Peace.
@@ltfchater I am a cradle Maronite Catholic and I wish it was never latinised with Vatican 2, I would have loved to attend a Traditional Maronite mass every week, instead now to go to TLM
Latín American here: just wanted to say I have been through it all and I just can say: EMBRACE TRADITION!!!! The traditional Roman mass is the highest form of adoration.
Then you have never been in a Byzantine Catholic Mass
@@YiriUbic3793 My thoughts exactly. The Divine Liturgy is completely mystical.
@@YiriUbic3793 I have actually. Tridentine mass is just... wow
Well said.
@@YiriUbic3793 that’s a different Rite and I’m sure it’s beautiful I’m going to see one when I move back home in a few months.
We saw a Maronite Mass a few times it was really nice as well
Not buying that the organ is only for Europeans. I was doing a workshop yesterday at our parish, and there was an organist from Nigeria there, who was really, really good, deeply acquainted with traditional hymnody.
We also have to remember - the Mass isn’t for us, it’s for God. Is understanding most important, or is being One Body, unified, in the Sacrifice of the Mass? How do you explain 80% belief in the real presence back in 1950, to 30% or less today? There are so many resources now to help your understanding on the beauty of the Mass. If we’re going to be One Body, One Church, through the highest form of prayer, there needs to be things addressed in the Ordinary Form today that was clearly not implemented well here in the US. This is why you have people like myself, a revert mind you, being very upset with the lack of reverence, awe, and beauty that owed to God in every Mass that represents our unification in the Body of Christ. Look within the Old Testament in Leviticus - worship was so essential, getting it right was of utmost important, and reverence was owed to God.
When that’s not addressed in the Ordinary Form across all of the US and the world, and attacks are made on the Extraordinary Form, which should be very much so represented and incorporated within the Ordinary Form, then you have division, which is going on right now. The Pope nor the Bishops truly understand the severity of this. It’s not the Extraordinary From’s fault, it’s the fact we don’t have a true implementation of the Ordinary Form at all. There still needs be adequate reform here and corrections made.
I've been going to Novus Ordo masses my entire life, 25 years. It wasn't until I attended my first TLM did I truly feel at home.
I have a question for you Casey: Why isn’t the Latin rite just treated like any other cultural liturgy instead of being suppressed as if it is a threat even though many people’s cultural roots in Catholicism are tied to the Latin rite?
I mean the Latin mass
Because our culture isn't valued as much as an African's culture
I don't go to TLM, but i have to say even though you are right, the truth is that all the people who wants a revent Mass and want to keep the TLM are canceled and persecuted. I saw it in my country, a traditional group of 100 lay people was destroyed because it was directed by 3 friars who celebrated TLM, and the 3 friars were moved into separated states. I saw that in the US, in franciscan Steubenville University the bishop cancelled TLM, when there were 200 students who loved it.
There's no doubt II VC in their documents it's reasonable, but there's no mercy from Rome and the hierarchy for those who love tradition.
I'm not surprised. Growing up in the 70s, I witnessed dancing girls, the replacement of the Stations of the Cross with abstract art, and priests who appeared to be sorely missing a pair of roller skates. Protestant hymns, Pentecostal hysteria, and altar ornaments that appeared to be made by kindergarteners on bad biker crank. If they were trying to destroy everything dignified and orthodox about Catholicism, they've succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Now, the Sacrifice of Calvary appears to be entirely overlooked, and an increasing number of Catholics no longer recognize the Real Presence of the Eucharist. Eventually, the Church will simply become like the Anglican Church--where being "with it" is more important than sacred Tradition and theology.
Thank you Father Casey for all the knowledge. Been watching for years and Im considering priesthood now :)
God bless!!!
God Bless you!!!
Thank you Jesus for answered prayers! Thank you Pius Pax, we need you! 🙏❤️🙏
I'm African, Nigerian particularly and I can assure you we can do without the dancing and clapping. The Mass is a sacrifice. It is us all being at the foot of the cross. It should be solemn. We're lucky to be witnesses and to a degree participants in the Mass, but essentially the Mass is Worship to God. It's the Sacrifice of the second Person of the Trinity to God. Doesn't and shouldn't matter what my taste is for the Mass. What matters is giving God the most reverence and not what I feel
May God bless you. The few African Roman Catholics it has been my honor to meet ( A couple from Nigeria, a seminarian from Ghana ) have a sense of true devotion and commitment that is difficult to find here. Despite intrusive and dangerous 'folk preachers' who prey upon the simple, exploit the poor and pervert the Gospel, the sons and daughters of the church have, as the hymn says 'Lift High the Cross' with sacrifice and Honor.
Some churches actually dance and clap more as to them THAT effort is the sacrifice and the worship. Harder you sing or clap = harder your worship. To me worship is a mental thing, so clapping or not clapping or dressing modest or solemnity or dignity (which is a super varied concept) is not something God would mind or prefer. It’s a feeling that you make inside of yourself. My opinion however doesn’t match everyone’s. Some people think that you NEED to dress and act a certain way to produce worship feelings, and any deviation from tradition is sin.
@@yucol5661 It has NOTHING to do with "producing worship feelings', that makes no sense anyway. Feelings aren't a great part of religion or should not be. "Love" in the Christian sense is an ACT OF WILL not essentially a feeling. It is doing what is right to those around you, treating the other as you would be treated.
We dress well in church to show RESPECT. Respect for the members of the church, respect for the church itself, respect for the tradition that leads us back to the first of our kind in God's love. By dressing as well as we can it is a way of saying Lord I give my best to you'. If all you have is a pair of jeans with a hole in the crotch and a T-shirt, clean them up the night before, wash your face, come as neat and presentable as you can. People understand. But to come in expensive designer jeans with your arse out...nope. Just nope your way out of there until you have respect for others and for yourself.
@@yucol5661what planet are YOU living on
@@yucol5661what planet are YOU living on
I wouldn't do well...I have a fear of clowns.
Personally, I enjoyed the TLM. My daughter had a Latin class and she had an assignment to find, attend and write about a Latin Mass. We attended together. And I really enjoyed it. The Mass was full and attended by a variety of ages.
Children's Mass is Clown 🤡 🤣 free
One rite, one way of worshipping. We are united in our style of worship no matter where we are on earth. Adapting local customs to the liturgy creates disunity because each community will see their way of worshipping as superior. The Novus Ordo had the effect of creating division. My home parish has masses in English, Italian and Spanish with a different priest of each mass with their own styles of saying the mass. Each ethnic community interacts with themselves only and each one despises the other. One community decided to fund raise in order to buy a beautiful chalice and matching ciborium and new chasubles as the priest was tired of using a clay chalice and polyester vestments. The same community refuses to allow the other masses to use the chalice and chasubles and locks them away in the closet. The three priests do not get along because each one sees the other as either too liberal or too conservative.
Seems like the community's own problem then
@@reintaler6355 absolutely 100% true but the end result is the same. My point was that having one liturgy in the same language unites rather than divides.
Is the homily going to be in Latin, too?
@M My comments are very clearly about the Western Roman Rite since the title of the video has the words “Novus Ordo” in it. The discussion is about “clown masses” which again concerns the Novus Ordo or the Roman Rite. Absolutely no reason to bring in the Eastern Rites to this conversation because again….the video is about the abuses in the Novus Ordo which is found only in the…..yup….you guessed it…the Roman Rite.
The Traditional Mass doesn't offer entertainment but it gives us a taste of heaven.
How does it do that?
@@christiandpaul2022 go to one and see for yourself
All masses give us a taste of heaven.
I think perhaps that's a very narrow conception of what heaven is like.
I agree. It's so beautiful and reverent. I always get teary-eyed when I go.
Honestly, I have experienced quite a difference in cultures at mass recently. I have been attending mass with American, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, French, Caribbean, and African Catholics lately, and we all participate a little bit differently in the mass. As uncomfortable as it can be due to the differences and being ensure of what is occurring, it is also interesting to see how other culture participate.
Had an experience with this in the Episcopal church. It deeply offended me so that I did not participate. Was dismissed from the choir for not being “on board” with this.
This guy is one of my favorite channels!
OMGOOOOOOOOOSH!!!! He actually like my comment!!!!
I really like his videos even tho im orthodox Christian
I'm not even Catholic but the Liturgy doesn't seem like the time for silly little joys outside of stressful life
Solid video, Fr. As a guy who strongly prefers his organ and Gregorian chant, it gave me some food for thought! Thank you!
I attended Latin mass in the 60s. No one ever came to mass as a clown. It would have been unthinkable to say the least.
The pastor of my parish, when I graduated from college,decided that clown liturgies were a good thing. It literally was, a circus. No one knew what was going on, anyone who wanted could receive communion, he made up his own words of consecration and sat on the altar to give his homily in full. Clown. Makeup. Red fuzzy wig, big red nose, size 42 shoes that squeaked when he walked in. He had a horn that he pressed when he told a joke (all bad, all really, really inappropriate). As a 20 yr old I was confused and really, really turned off. After two Sunday’s like this, I went to another parish and have been happy there ever since. the Bishop let my pastor know, clearly, that this manifestation of the Liturgy was NOT the intention of VII and he had to knock it off. He did, then he left the ministry. But a lot of people left the parish before he left the ministry. He nearly closed it down. Harm reduction has to be introduced to the seminary so some of these guys, left and right, unfortunately, can be schooled that actions have consequences, in case they didn’t know. Good one. Love your conferences.
Thank you for this!!!! 🎉❤
I go to the TLM whenever I can. I used to also go to a Byzantine rite because it was more reverent than the local NO Masses.
I attended both the novus and the Latin mass and there's no doubt that the Latin is so much superior
Glad you talked about this. I like the traditional mass more but I understand why masses are different. I just wish that the Latin Mass can be made its own Rite or at least have more Novus Ortho in Latin. What led me to the faith wasn't the 10+ years of catholic school it was the Latin Mass. Thought I still mainly go to Novus Ordo, since I would rather support the church that is geographically closest to me.
Novus Ordo
@@kaypie3112 ty😁
@@tradmango You’re welcome.
Have a blessed day!
Why specifically in Latin? If you want to attend a Mass in a language you don't understand, go to one of the ethnic Masses in Spanish, Lithuanian, Polish, German, etc.
Would rather have the TLM translated to English in its entirety vs attending the NO in Latin.
I think my brain broke just hearing that this was a thing at some point in time. I'm all for wholesome and energetic reverence, having a passionate sermon is important... but clowns? The very idea makes me so upset, imagining walking in there expecting a sacred mass. Simply seeing the sacraments done with schtick would pull me out of the moment thinking they'd start to pull out whipcream pies and whoopee cushions or something.
There will always be awful things going on as long as priests and lay staff make up the Mass using any excuse to express themselves.
You are not alone and you are 100% correct in your revulsion.
These abominations must be condemned, not the wishy washy crap in justification being espoused here.
This is normally a good Priest but he is so far off the mark here, it just has to be said.
@@josephmaxwell5033 I don't see what you mean by "wishy washy crap in justification". Fr. Casey was explicit in saying "they [Clown Masses] fundamentally shift the focus of the Liturgy from reverence to entertainment and undermine unchangeable aspects of the Liturgy". In whatever context he provided, he is rejecting any justification of them.
@@John_Fisher in acceptance and tolerance of the Clown facade, justification in making people happy and feeling good, wishy washy crap!
@@josephmaxwell5033 Again, how is saying "they... undermine unchangeable aspects of the Liturgy" either accepting or even tolerating? "unchangeable" is not 'wishy washy', it's concrete and definitive.
Catholic Faith Forever and Ever, TLM is the best. Traditional Tridentin Latin Mass !⛪🙏
Thanks Fr Casey makes perfect sense. As a child I grew up attending the Latin Mass and must confess I would get frustrated not understanding what was been said but when the Mass was changed to the vernacular I found it truly a blessing as I’m sure it must be in most parts of the world. Let us remember that scripture commands us to obey our leaders and that they will have to give an account of their teaching and example.
Part of your bias is that you were a child. The mass won't make much sense to a little kid, regardless of language. And the Vatican 2 changes to the mass was NOT just a translation from latin to English. They rewrote almost everything and got rid of 75% of the prayers
If your leaders cause you to sin or actually profess sin, you have no obligation to obey, period. You do not get to say, well Lord it was the Bishop or the Priest or even the Pope that said it was ok and better still, they said it would not be inclusive, if I didn’t provide my obedience. Grasp the nettle that is Synodality and put it all on the fire that will not be extinguished.
@@josephmaxwell5033 that’s not what this person is saying lol
Did you use your Missal? You may understand the prayers of the Modernist "Novus Ordo" but they are just 17% of the prayers that are in the Latin Mass
I agree wholeheartedly. I was an altar boy as well. I just memorized the Latin. The Latin mass was a big turn off in farming community and the vernacular was warmly welcomed. I do not want to go back for sure.
The today mass can be said in Latin and bells etc can be used.
“By their fruits you will know them.” Statistics state that for every one new Novus Ordo Catholic, Six are leaving the faith. This is since V2.
God understands all cultures and knows all languages of man. He knows your heart.
My family once was on kind of a clown mass. They moved into a small German town, where carnival season was a really big thing (much bigger, than in our native country, Hungary). The priest in the parish encouraged people to attend mass in their costumes (so far so good). He held the mass dressed up as a cat and gave a mock homily. My family was so confused, they couldn't say wether it was a valid mass, or just a mess. So they went to the other parish in the town - where mass was held as usual, so it was not a universal thing in that part of Germany, although this is a thing. I also heard, that in that part of the country, they sometimes hold masses at carnival season with raspberry juice and cake, although neither me, nor my family have ever seen such a thing happen.
As a Catholic living in Germany, I've heard of the liturgical abuses you write about. It's not the norm - but it reflects a greater problem. I know of a priest who, last Sunday decided to let the congregation do everything except the words of consecration. He means well (I hope!), but it shows a underlying spiritual and theological error: that the priesthood of all the baptised is the same or similar to the consecrated priesthood. Yet as Fr. Casey rightly said: this is a topic for another video.
So I landed here on a search for “lack of reverence in the Catholic mass”.
After what I saw in church today I was so appalled. My family and I ran late for our own parish. So we decided it would be better to not show up late. But to go to a nearby parish to celebrate the mass.
The Msgr there was celebrating 40 years since his ordination. A wonderful feat to be sure.
But they turned the mass into a music concert. Complete with drums , violins, flutes, a conductor and two cantors that made the mass all about them. About the music and about the priest. God was nowhere to be found. Sure there were readings and a homily. We received the Eucharist. But the whole thing left a horrible impression. Where was the reverence? Where was the worship? The wisdom?
Sadly even without the musical production, which is all that mass was. Too many of our parishes have masses that lack the solemnity and reverence that is our Lords due.
For here forward I will only be attending TLM. Vatican II has destroyed the church. Not brought us closer to God. But further away.
Let us pray everyday for the restoration of the TLM and for the freedoms to attend it at parish churches!
One of my most joyous moments at Mass was during the recessional at a high Mass TLM. The organ blasting, the choir belting, and the entire congregation singing loudly a very beautiful hymn. I had never heard a parish so full of song. And this after an incredibly solemn moment during the consecration, only the sound of the church bells as the Body of Christ is consecrated on the altar. I have a deep love for the traditional liturgy and for the devotion with which it is celebrated by the priest and with which it is participated in by the laity.
This happened once in my parish when I was in high school. The blow back was impressive. The priest behind it was leader of our youth group, who had a key role in bringing me fully into the faith. He was also a volunteer fireman and a clown. I believe he had good intentions when he did the clown mass, though I admit I never did quite understand what his point was. And looking back, I have to wonder about some of the other stuff he did, like practicing Transcendental Meditation and using secular songs like Elton John's "Daniel My Brother" in the folk Mass. To his credit, when I told him, "Now that I know God is real, what should I do?", he immediately said, "Buy a Bible and read it."
Father, i speak to you as a former Priest from a Portuguese Diocesis. I say: "Former" because i live now in a different state of live. This is my point of view: The problem is not the vatican Council... If you see the "Sacrossantum Concilium" document, you will see that many things that we see in liturgy today are from the period "after" the elaboration and approval of that document. Yet, it is the lack of condemnation of the mistakes and the woke clima inside the churches that are transforming liturgy not in God's celebration, but instead in man's celebration were the persons celebrate themselves. During my priestwood i celebrated as parish priest in the post vatcian II missal, but in private, i celebrated sometimes in the "extraordinary form" and i can tell you: they are totally different. When it is necessary to make this kind of games in the mass to atract people to the church, really bad goes the things in the church. In the Calvary (the Mass is the renewal of the sacrifice of Christ and not "a supper") there were no feast or dance of anything else. To those who told that the liturgical reform was to bring the church to a purity of the times of the catacombs, i ask: in the catacombs they had this? They singed hymns to the Christ, but not this kind of things, nor dancing nor other stuff we see in the church today... As conclusion: i think that the liturgical reform needs a reformation or we will see more and more unefortunate things like this.
Thank you' African masses are beautiful, rich in culture, lots programs for community, and the churches are full on Sundays, holidays, great reverence but also joy. The choirs are great, dancing and clapping express the excitement and joy of the people for God, nothing disrespectful. Africans have their own cultures and views, not everything has to be copied on the West.
One universal Catholic apostolic church. I agree with some of what you say it’s important to remember why we must remain United in faith through the use of one form of the mass.
Cardinal Arinze said Africans should dance. Europeans should not. We are different.
@@TheBusttheboss I take it that you don’t understand what “one Holy Catholic and apostolic church” means then. I agree that people celebrate differently however, the mass should be the same wherever you go. Glory to God is not for debate. Ask the same question to the Muslin community and see if they incorporate dance in their mosques. Reverent prayer during mass is expected everywhere. After mass go party if you like.
@@blueknight5754 One People, different expression. If i get the oneness that you speak of, why should we party differently? At party time we are not One anymore? Jesus is God, but does He have the same role as the Father or the Holy Spirit? God created diversity and beauty and we want to show Him all of that. The African masses are not a big party, there is reverence or happiness according to the different parts of the liturgy . Very expressive but reverent. Who is to say every mass should be copied on medieval western culture? The first masses were probably in hebrew or aramaic, so maybe we should all go to these ones, not Latin.
@@TheBusttheboss exactly. God created diversity for z reason.
the lack of reverence in the novus ordo mass should be an indicator that the catholic church is not in a good state. Not only this, but Francis constantly threatens banning the traditional latin mass outright. Orthodoxy has maintained its divine liturgy
Father--I think you should read and deeply consider all these intelligent comments regarding reverence in liturgies--and even the TLM, which I imagine you oppose and which Vatican II never jettisoned. You don't need clowns to have a diluted, diminished, or eviscerated Mass. Vatican II was marvelously well-intentioned, but the council's effect on liturgy has been a disaster, at least in English-speaking countries (I cannot speak with authority about any of the others). This point was debatable when I entered the Church in the early 1980s when we eradicated silence and thought ill-tuned guitars reverberating in spaces in which they were never meant to be played might attract young people, but no longer. To ignore this is an exercise in evasion. Why do the Episcopalians across the street from my Catholic church get to kneel at an altar rail to receive their communion when I must queue up as though I'm boarding a bus? A small matter? Not really. Please, Father. Most of us don't live around a seminar table. For many of us, Mass is the one hour per week when we have the opportunity to be bathed in the transcendent, not to receive politically-tinged homilies from with-it clergy. Restore the altar rails, strike 'On Eagle's Wings' from the 'songbooks', and encourage the congregations not to attend Mass dressed as though they're off to the mall.
This is a simple explanation why the Apostolic Roman Catholic traditional ways have to be revised to cater to the needs of the different cultures of the members in this universal church, not to be totally lost with them, but immerse ourselves to their culture, integrating it to our faith without twisting our own faith and traditional beliefs, but bringing our brothers and sisters from other cultures towards one true faith in Christ as we resurface from this immersion. In parallelism, Christ came to this world to become Man and die, so we would die in Him and be resurrected in His resurrection.
My pastor, a TOR Friar, told a story about how he went to a Mass in the 1970’s where the priest got up to preach and was in Mime make-up, the priest Mimed the entire homily and sat down.
@TimMcCloskey Welcome home Tim! There is much talk here about forms of the mass…but the true cause for celebration is that you’re here. What joy that you have Christ in the Eucharist and all the other sacraments! I’m praying for you and am so glad you’re back.
I think the distinctions between masses mentioned here are most certainly valid due to very real cultural differences when comparing masses between, say, sub-Saharan Africa and the U.S. However, major differences in style between local parishes can cause issues in unity. I most certainly would forego my parish down the street for an FSSP parish 45 minutes away if some strange, or foreign, liturgical dance was inserted into the liturgy. It encourages parish shopping and people loo
A Council that contained language that promoted secular humanism and secular utopianism, which impicitly denies original sin, is not indisputably fulfilling a hermeneutic of continuity.
One of the persistent manifestations of the post-conciliar world, is folk masses. I remember an unfortunate parish priest in a bid for what his superiors mistakenly thought was relevance, offering such a mass for teenagers in the 1970s. My own church only recently abandoned folk masses. I suppose they were trying to reframe a catacomb experience by way of drippy lyrics and bad Dylan impersonations. Given the wealth of divinely inspired art and music the church was custodian to, it was like forsaking a Cordon Bleu chef in favour of a drive-thru burger.
Where as that was a really good breakdown of your view on the subject, I cannot agree with it. The lack of reverence in the Roman Catholic Church today is certainly because of a departure from tradition. It's not one singular thing however. It's a culmination of things. New doctrines that stealthily override old doctrines, removal of roodscreens, replacing chanting with various forms of modernist secular music (remaimagined to suit worship). I remember the last Roman Catholic mass I went to. A lady came and sat down in front of me, started complaining immediately to her friend and then talked about weird secular things the entire mass. Where do people get an idea that this is an ok way to behave in a church? And the answer is, people are only going to take the church as seriously as it takes itself.
Lots of good points, Fr. Casey. Thank you!
I think a lot of the reasons people are more strongly becoming traditionalists, or at least more conservative of Catholics, myself included, is that we want a strong Catholic identity, to be different than the secular realm. Not better than, just more strongly formed on conscience and to have a solid relationship with God. With how hypersexualized our culture has become, and agnostic, we want to combat that secularized influence.
Exactly. I don't want a liturgy that bows to the whims of local secular flavors
We come to the Church for instruction in the Catholic life and to pay reverence to The Holy Trinity. The Latin Mass is very reverent and it disciplines us. It's not Burger King where you can have it your way.
As a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism, but also as someone who prefers the TLM, I liked this video a lot. The only thing I’d note about the music is that V2 does note in Sacrosanctum Concillium that Gregorian Chant and Polyphany should have pride of place.
Honestly, in my mind, if Vatican II had been implemented correctly, the Novus Ordo Mass would look much more similar to the Traditional Latin Mass. As someone who prefers the old form of the Latin rite, I believe the Novus Ordo can work but I believe a reform of the reform would be needed and more thorough catechesis. I think liturgical dance and other gestures kind've take away what the Mass is. To me, the Mass is leaving this world and entering heaven itself so, while taking in some practices can be applicable and better help the laity, I think it takes away part of the meaning of the Mass. The fact that the Mass is the sacrifice on Calvary represented in modern times definitely makes me believe a solemn form is best suited since all the disciples of Christ seeing him suffer would be solemn. This balance will definitely be a big point for future popes and I think the work of the Magisterium on this issue will continue for a while. God bless, Father Casey!
The book by Peter Kwasniewski, "The Once and Future Roman Rite", really goes into a lot of depth in examining what happened after Vatican II. Annibale Bugnini pursued his own agenda to "reform" the Latin Rite; he pretty much lied to St. Pope Paul VI and sold him a bill of goods. I think the Pope eventually realized that he had been deceived (he gave his "smoke of Satan in the tabernacle" homily in 1972) but thought the Novus Ordo Mass could be made to work.
That Clown Masses were even conceived as a good idea, just goes to show that there was a weird giddiness in the Church at the time. I heard a lecture on You Tube by a Catholic priest in which he made the point that he likened some of the behavior within the Church as having PTSD from World War II.
There is a form of Vietnamese chant usually reserved for reciting sutras. It is also used in the recitation of psalms in Catholic masses, and chanted Bible readings. The Church’s adoption of these native traditions has helped my motherland become one of the great bastions of Christendom in Asia.
There are many Catholics out there who accuse their fellow Catholics, who may be a bit more "reverence-minded," of trying to force their personal liturgical preferences on other people, and yet are completely oblivious to the fact that they themselves have been doing that for years. It's a matter of self-growth to take that inward look.
Example: personally, I've grown to deeply dislike Mass facing the people ("versus populorum"), because I find that it makes it utterly impossible for me to enter into the beautiful sacrificial mystery and spiritual reality of the Mass. It's so distracting to me. But whenever I talk about ad orientem worship, I'm immediately cut off and scolded that "everybody has their own preferences!"
Well, what about mine? Do I not matter in this listening church that accompanies all God's children?
As a father I don’t appreciate the laity participation of the Novus Ordo because I always feel like I’m falling short and my inability to fulfill my part frustrates me.
The organic growth of the TLM, the culmination of generations celebrating the Mass and perfecting it, reverence is built in and it is objectively better. But the fact that Heaven and earth converge at every type of Mass makes all Masses utterly AWEsome.
Thank you Father, perhaps you could explain something to me. I don't understand why reasonable cultural adaptations are allowed, but the celebration of the TL M is being squashed. It seems to me that they are two sides of the same coin.
The Wuestion is not how do we remain faith-full to Vatican II.
The Challenge is how do we remain faith-full to Christ and His Gospel.
I was ordained in 84 and continue in parish work. I share My whole VatII priesthood like this. The N.O. demands a certain sense of performance on the part of the priest. If the priest is not 'performing', the liturgy will be flat and dead. The big problem is when the liturgy becomes a vehicle for the performer. The Preformer becomes center of the liturgy, I see this happening again. I also celebrate the Old Mass, there is no performer, the liturgy IS the focus.
As a priest of almost 40 years I can say, the old is much better than the new.
If you think clown is bad, what do you think of priests using a squirt gun to bless someone?
Three years ago, during the height of the pandemic, Father Timothy Pelc of Detroit, Michigan to bless parishioners. In 2013, Father Humberto Alvarez of Mexico used a super soaker to bless the congregation!
There are just some things not meant for masses.
Squirtergun 😄🤗🌟⭐
I think the answer to where the line lies can be found in a quote from Padre Pio: “In Calvary, there were those applauding Christ's death: soldiers and demons.”
Our actions, whatever they are, should reflect what the mass actually is. It is a celebration yes, but a solemn one. We are celebrating a sacrifice.
As a historical example: the first ecumenical council prohibited kneeling (a penitential gesture) on Sundays because mass on Sunday was the celebration of our salvation. Obviously, in the west, we do kneel, but that is because there are differences in cultures. In the case of the west, kneeling was also seen as respectful rather than just penitential, so it did not fall under the prohibition. That being said, our salvation came at a great cost that I don't think should be partied over, as Padre Pio says.
I guess my thoughts are: There can be different cultural variations to the mass. In one culture clapping and dancing may be appropriate, but we should not be applauding as the demons did, lest we lose sight of what the mass is.
I always wonder why the Roman Catholics didn't just allow their traditional Mass to be translated into the vernacular and leave it at that. The Orthodox have their Divine Liturgy in their vernacular languages.
Hey, Breaking in the habbit! This is your brother in Christ, I am enjoying your videos so far(even as an orthodox christian). I would love for you to come to Riga. It's beutifull here. I hope you would see this comment! ☦
I have already heard about your city before because of the famous chess player who was born there :D
V2 did not exclude Latin but said vernacular could be used for the readings, if helpful.
"...cultural adaptations that honor the genus of a culture for the use of evangelization and active participation while still maintaining the dignity and underlying tradition of the Liturgy..." A noble goal to be sure, unless, you want to celebrate the TLM.
Born and raised in Africa I remember our mothers the ladies shouting trills of joy during Easter vigil when the priest shouts "The Lord is risen" as a child my whole body would shake and seeing rears in my mothers eyes I would feel the presence of our Lord in our midst, when ever I remeber those days my eyes well with tears of joy and gladness, you expressed it right father !
I travel 100 km every Sunday to attend the nearest Tridentine Mass... There is a new mass in front of my home every Sunday lol :D
Im not even Catholic, but i was going through a rough time some years ago and stepped into a mass. I just wanted something reverent and to connect to God in prayer. The mass started with the congregation clapping to an electric guitar. I was repelled by it and quietly left.
Amen!! Very well balanced and sourced. Thank you, father. One of the major themes of the gospels is that reverence is primarily an interior virtue and not an exterior action. Often time reverence can look like a woman washing Jesus's feet with her hair, or a tax collector, climbing a tree, or friends, pulling the roof off, and lowering their friend through, or a tax collector, beating his breast and shouting at the top of his lungs. And often times it was those who prioritized strict liturgical adherence who Jesus criticized as whitewashed tombs, who looked nice and pretty on the outside but were spiritually dead on the inside. Now that's not to say that anything goes during liturgy or that it's not important to follow liturgical rubrics, but it should give us pause when judging what is reverent and what is not.
Man judges by appearances, but the Lord sees the heart.
Do you really think that Our Lord did not practice reverence to His Father when he took part in the Temple? Can you imagine Him countenancing pagan or street activities in Jewish sacrifices?
@@carolynkimberly4021 i absolutely think Jesus practiced reverence. My point (and frequently Jesus’ point) was that reverence often doesn’t look like what we think it does.
💯 Amen!
Incredibly well said!
You are talking a load of absolute rubbish! Half baked with juvenile theology.
Make up anything you want and form your own Church, schism is inevitable with this level of nonsense.
This crap is an Abomination, a Sacrilege abhorrent in the extreme! Jesus took a whip to those who mocked and misused the Temple and that was just over money exchange. Get your story ready for trying to justify this excrement to Our Blessed Lord. He knows the very fabric of your being. Oh, let’s just look for a deeper meaning, nonsense!
Its a mockery of the Last Supper, the institution of the Blessed Sacrament, the Sacrifice on Calvary and destroys any semblance of devotion.
One of the best videos explaining this topic. I remember seeing pictures of these masses and being somewhat scandalized because it just didn’t look right, but thankfully this helped me look more into the masses and the faith. Reverence is needed in the mass because God deserves reverence and more🙏🏼
In the Philippines there are Jamaican priests that come to visit and stay for a period of time. I love attending their masses because of the music. It’s very uplifting.
Cardinal Gordon Gray of Scotland said in his memoirs that he voted for the vernacular Mass because it would help churches in the Soviet bloc.
Priests in these countries could not address the faithful from the pulpit. Now the faithful could at least hear the liturgy in the common tongue.
Yet this does not explain why the Latin vernacular was shut down ruthlessly. Michael J Matt (The Remnant : TH-cam) addresses this at length.
The reason I dont like the NO as much as the TLM or Eastern Catholic Masses is that the roman-catholic church is the only one which abandoned its mass. While as I look at the other rites even the Anglican rite which is a valid catholic mass I just prefer the reverence I can find there while in NO I find clapping and hopping around sometimes and its not for me as an introvert. Lex orandi lex credendi.
In Spanish language mass here in the US, people hold hands during the our father. It feels so awkward.
wow I have never heard of clown mass 😂😂😂 that sounds terrifying
I still go to Novus Ordo because it’s just what’s closest when you live in a town as small as mine, but I do agree that liturgical abuse is a thing. NO wasn’t meant for abuse like this, but a priest can’t be blessing people with a guitar. Guitars should stay with the cantors if they are going to be used in mass.
I'm a bit sad that use of Latin has declined (a view that has nothing to do with the issue over the Latin Mass) as this wasn't intended by Vatican II.
There doesn't appear to be any consistency. The main Novus Ordo Sunday Mass in our parish can contain extensive Latin or none, on a week-by-week basis with no obvious motivation for the difference.
@@borderlands6606 the Ordinary of the mass should remain Latin imo
@@DoctorDewgong if we want to be traditional, surely Aramaic and Hebrew should be used for most of the prayers, and the Gospel be read in Greek. The homily makes most sense to remain in the Vernacular since each one is supposed to be an original piece based on the readings, and context of that Mass.
@@JdAskins99 Sounds good to me
Oh my - I’ve never heard of this until today. You are so well spoken and tackled this topic with grace and truth. Thank you for keeping me from running lol - honestly if I walked into a clown mass - I may go to the Orthodox churches. We do have diverse cultures at my church - I’m at The Grotto in Portland Oregon. I really enjoyed the special ceremony we had for Our Lady of Guadalupe which included some Aztec dancers. It was beautiful 🕊️✝️
I have not attended the Novus Ordo Mass for years. Father Casey should read (if he hasn't already) Father Anthony Cekada's "Work of Human Hands: a Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI".
I am a convert to the Catholic Church, I became a full member in 2014. I’m a TradCat, but not an angry one. I love the Novus Ordo Mass but I personally prefer the Traditional Latin Mass. For me, the TLM bring me closer to our Lord Jesus. But I love Vatican II, I read the documents of it and of course it’s a valid Council. I am strongly against anyone who slams the Ordinary Form, because it isn’t the Extraordinary Form, I also am harsh with Sedevacantist’s because they are breaking the Church. I don’t always agree with Pope Francis, but he IS the valid Pope, Successor of Saint Peter, and Vicar of Christ. He’s never taught heresy’s, so he’s the valid Pope. I just wish we could have more opportunities to keep the Extraordinary Form going, along with the Ordinary Form of Mass. Both are valid and bring us to Our Lord!! God bless you Father Casey!!
Ty for bringing up this ridiculous topic. I miss reverence in Church. That's why I think Latin mass is so appealing
To me the Tridentine Mass has too much of what I think is unnecessary frou-frou. Also, I want to be able to understand the language of the Mass, unless I am visiting a foreign country. I am sure The Last Supper celebrated by Christ did not have fancy robes, sashes, chalices, etc. I am sure it was quite simple. There can be beauty in simplicity.
@@ulysse9471 "noble simplicity" is a catchphrase that was abused to get rid of anything and everything that was artistically pleasing to be replaced by actual garbage. I've seen chasubles made from everything ranging from pastel felt butterflies to an actual burlap sack with "shalom" and peace signs embroidered on it. Beautiful murals emblazened across countless parish church sanctuaries in the US were sloppily painted over with flat beige paint. The sanctuary furnishings that families in past generations spent months' worth of their annual income on, were torn out and thrown into dumpsters by their grandchildren.
This kind of argument just comes across to others like "we shouldn't give God nice things"
Also, "I want to understand the language of the Mass, unless I'm visiting a foreign country." What selfishness!
You realize people from other countries can travel to you too, right? This only reinforces the idea that every parish should have a Latin liturgy. Heck, I don't even need to travel abroad to go to parishes with other cultures. Why not have Latin liturgies at the predominately Viatnamese parish in my city? Or Latin liturgies at the predominately Mexican parish just a few minutes' drive away?
@@CatholicSamurai - What you have described is a theatrical experience. Apparently you are looking for a theatrical experience and not worship.
@@ulysse9471 Oh definitely, I am absolutely looking for "theatrics"
Just like my intellect needs to be encouraged to dwell on holy things (with good spiritual reading and daily scripture), so too my senses need to be encouraged to dwell on the things of God. And chances are, unless someone is a Carthusian monk who has dwelled in the inner depths of contemplation and can manage just fine with austere worship, they too need to have sights/smells/sounds/etc. that encourage their senses to dwell on divine realities.
I'm glad I at least have the humility to realize that I am but a spiritual child, one of Jesus' "little ones" who can always use something tangible to remind me of what I'm experiencing when I'm at Mass. I'm grateful that you seem to have ascended beyond the need for anything like that! What a gift that must be!
@@ulysse9471 they make little books with the English/Latin prayers side by side. How much fro-fro is too much for your King?
As an Orthodox Christian I can understand the idea of adding their culture to worship, but practicing traditions from a culture that is not my own is showing respect for the Church Fathers who came before us and paved the way for the Church today. I’m worshipping in the same way as the early saints.
Father Casey, please make a video about the sudden drop in religious vocations after Vatican II and the reactions to Vatican II. People need to understand the difference, and people need to know that the TLM exists
If vaticanum II is to blame, then why in other churches there was also drop? Or maybe it is not about V2, but about the things that happened with societies at those times?
also be careful - today there is more catholics on this world than there was before.
I’m blessed that I’ve found a parish nearby where Novus Ordo is celebrated beautifully, and with the dignity and joy the Lord deserves. I have to drive 25 minutes to get there, but it’s worth it. The local parish doesn’t have “innovations,” but the Mass feels sloppy and not heartfelt.
This video made me think about one think. Living in central Europe I think most of masses here can be called reverent. We almost always have organ music, the masses are aesthetic.
It took me a year of university to finally figure out that I do actually believe in God and want to attend church. After that I went to a nearby dominicanian parish. I attend it for quite a while. It is NO and I don;t have any problems with that - I think that novus ordo can be a beautiful way of worshiping God. A few weeks ago during winter break I visited my hometown and I finally realised what was putting me of from the church there. People are not serious about God there. And I don't mean serious as sad - there are many moments in the mass that we should be joyful, but serious in a sense that they were not taking God seriously. I started attending TLM when I visit my family because they do actually care, you can see that they want to be there, that is something important for them and that they put some effort into it.
So I don't believe it is the TLM that has something magical into it (but I guess young people want some tradition and same as buildings from 1960s were once considered modern people still admire acient architecture). It is the feeling that the people actually care, that they put effort into celebration something that is really important for them
Clown mass is just one reason why some of us who were brought up with TLM find the Novus Ordo Mass disturbing. What next, drag queen funerals?
Fr. Casey, you're definitely on track with your purpose - focusing on helping US focus on Mass experiences that build a true, genuine reverence of our Lord. You nail it in terms of how those Mass adaptations in non-European cultures not only don't go against the calling of Vatican II, but powerfully evoke a sense of the Lord's presence for us to embrace, revere and love. (And oh yeah, no clown Masses, please.) The challenge I'm seeing is that it doesn't feel like there's an openness to the carryover of cultural traditions, and even modern ways of expression, here in the U.S.
In a nation that is 40% non-White, we need to not only have openness to other cultures' ways of embracing God in faith, but in a nation with 75 millions Catholics and perhaps as many different ways of encountering our Lord, it's important we allow for that as much within our borders as outside them. Two weekends ago, I experienced Mass here in a Black neighborhood that used traditional African-American gospel traditions both in hymns and in Catholic Mass parts that were more effective in helping me encounter the Lord in my own personal journey, that was filled with more Holy Spirit, than any organ-led liturgical music. It also included liturgical dance that was far from sexual, but absolutely increased the sense of worshipfulness. All without either a desire or effectiveness in being simply performance.
Additionally, there is nothing wrong with using music that evokes a sense of warmth. Because God is not only the Alpha and Omega, but the brother who meets us where we are. There is something to be said in creating an atmosphere that says "I'm here to encounter you." Frankly, baroque organs and traditional hymns often don't pull that off.
Perhaps the question to ask: Is the music, the dance, the tone of communication in the homily, both desiring and effective in building a sense of worship in us? A contemplative guitar-and-voice, a Black gospel choir, a Gregorian chant fully in Latin, all can evoke reverence and worship IF DONE RIGHT. White suburban ladies and Black women in traditional African garb can both dance and sing in true praise of Christ, so long as that is the sole goal and what is truly spawned in the worshiper.
We just have to be sure we are accurately desiring and effective in building a sense of encounter and worship.
Surely all cultures have unique modes of offering praise to God. Some Indian tribes in North America received a permission from Rome to chant the propers at High Mass in their local tongue - to the same Gregorian melodies prescribed for those days - a wonderful expression of inculturation. However, we must heed the writings of the Holy Pontiff, Pius X, who sought to restore plainchant to its proper, preeminent status in sung liturgies. The organ is beautiful, and indeed surpasses all other instruments in its ability to evoke awe and emotion, save one: the human voice.
@@defensorfidei7535 Same writings, same document:
“On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir.”
We rightfully don’t heed that part of Saint Pius X’s writings. And he never said in that document the organ surpasses all other instruments. He was simply allowing it to be used in Mass and shutting out other instruments that he said were used in profane music. Including pianos.
There can be many right ways to musically express one’s love for God, just as a body has many parts. The Eucharist feeds all with the True Presence, but a brain needs different nutrients than a pancreas. So it is with unique human beings. Contemplative prayer and Biblically-led meditation feeds some souls more effectively than charismatic prayer. The writings of St. Ignatius and of St. Thomas Aquinas each have bushels of inspired truth, but one may more effectively reach one soul than another. You find an organ feeds your soul more than mine. Nothing wrong with that. But it feeds some differently than it does other people.
The Church has rightfully, by the Holy Spirit, embraced the need to be present to other cultures besides the European-centered of past centuries to embrace the liturgy. Time we do it now with music.
@@defensorfidei7535 I’ve attended plenty of masses that included tons of native customs.
No Gregorian chant in sight.
Nice singing and dancing.
But a lot of natives here bailed on the Church as soon as the American Indian Religious Freedom Act went through in 1978.
Bear Dances trump Gregorian chant, it seems, and they didn’t need permission from Rome to do anything anymore.
The tribal elders were put back as leaders of the tribal faith as they should be.
I don’t think it had much to do with Vatican 2,though.
Probably had more to do with decades of various kinds of abuse from the beginning, including quite a few of the local “ missionary” priests getting rape-y towards the kids for several generations.
Bad foundations make for failing edifices.
Catholicism is dead now in many families.
Folks haven’t been baptized for two generations.
They’re happy with the ancient faith.
The ones that remain want more input.
PS…we’re not rich enough to have or maintain an organ.
Those things are expensive and we have other needs.
@Defensor Fidei Gregorian chant was reintroduced by Pope Pius X because prior to that the music at the Tridentine Mass had become orchestral productions. He was reigning in abuses in the Tridentine Liturgy.
This is why we read in his 1903 Moto Proprio "Tra Le Sollecitudini" that you are referencing,
"The ancient traditional Gregorian Chant must, therefore, in a large measure be restored to the functions of public worship, and the fact must be accepted by all that an ecclesiastical function loses none of its solemnity when accompanied by this music alone.
Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times."
@@maryreinhardt8661 dramatic musical settings for the common of the Mass aren’t an abuse - incorporation of secular motifs into sacred music is, and such abuse was addressed by St. Pius V. St. Pius X merely restored plainchant to its place of precedence. It’s not as if it disappeared… bear further in mind that most churches, especially in mission country, may have struggled to find skilled musicians in the first place, thus ruling out the music of the Liber and choral or orchestral masterpieces. This latter fact is the reason why Masses were sung with Rossini’s propers or even recto tono.