When the #1 and #2 players both opt to skip the Silver Tree, it is a good enough reason to deeply think about it. There is a Viper replay where in a Mongols mirror he went for heavy early aggression against someone with a S.T. and completely crushed him, killing all early trade and snowballing from there. I believe the rush distance on this map is too small for S.T. to be safe at a pro level. The speed bonus you get from the other landmark not only makes defence easier against the inevitable early harass, but also boosts villager speed, so you get some economic bonus. Overall I believe it was a wise pick by both. S.T. obsession is something that happens a lot to lower tier players, but a good opponent will be able to punish the greed. It is a heavy early investment and if it fails you can resign.
idk if it was that smart of a choice in this case because he eventually still went hard into trading early, so he saved the money from the yam network and had "some" economic gain from the villagers on crack but he spent a lot more in traders that he would have if he went ST. He barely did any infantry so the improved yam network didn't really help there either. Tatoh's plan of going deer stone for the economic gain and skipping trade seem better
it depends on map, if the trade route is easy to defend and you know your oponent is focusing more on eco/booming, silver tree demolishes any other boom when done. Issue is defending and upgrading the trade, so in open maps with neutral market far away its not a good idea to do it
the key word he said is; If you are opening aggresive ( like tato was) you have the map control to get some sick trading going., even though i wouldnt like to use most of my stone for making traders.
The traction trebuchet is an interesting choice considering the mongols introduced counterweight trebuchet into china, having picked it up from conflicts in the middle east, using persian siege engineers.
What's going on is no faction is OP it's just people crying because they don't know how to play against certain factions despite them having big weaknesses. The game is out for 2 weeks now and as usual with any new game something has to be called "op" and something "shit" even when they're like 1-5% close to each other, the game is actually incredibly balanced for release and there's no such thing as an OP civ. Sure there could be some minor tweaks here and there and some bug fixes but that's to be expected for a new competitive game.
The silver tree is a big declaration that you are going trade. For Mongols mirror it's very risky since raiding will happen all the time from both sides with high mobility units, and the lack of defense option means you probably won't get the trader investment back, unless you are against incompetent players
@@zilliq That's not really worse. Using it for his early aggression gave him the win. Ideally, he would've gone for a new ovoo and move his production and research there, but he was concentrating on his push.
Ugh I think I figured out another Mongol exploit coming from stupid fast building movement during this game. Put your caravans together, move the market to the opposite corner from the trade post, let caravans pick up goods at the trade post and meet them with the super fast moving market in between, repeat. Imagine two synchronized Mongol players trading with each other like that in 2v2.
Pretty sure the resources gained from a trader dropping off are based on the distance between the markets at drop off not the amount picked up from the tradepost.
@@noname-sj1hi if you click on the traders after going to the neutral market they show how much they have on them like villagers with resources so distance matters on collection not on deposit. Unless that value can change on the way back.
@@williamschubert4819 Yes the value changes if you move the market. If you move the market further away the value will increase as the trader is going from the tradingpost to your market and conversely it will decrease if you move it closer by.
Better yet, the trade income is based on the home market. This home market can be changed at any time. So, make a bunch of markets around the intended trade market. Mass up a bunch of traders. Then, have a home market as far away as you're able to safely get. Finally, simply select all the traders around that trade market, reset their home market to that there ideally/best possible market. Enjoy the free half trip on all of them. :)
"Casted" still sounds weird to me, but looking it up it is actually a very very old correct form of 'cast' so I'll live with it. That was a good video you 'casted' drongo.
I play mongol civs, I used to like the market landmark, but then I opted to deerstones more, because not only it boost your units, but it also boost your villagers speed, either way for economy-wise, I would take extra speed than just "economy", thus both player take Deerstones instead.
Aussie: Hiding timer in game, so we cant see the length of the fight, but having the video on youtube have the same time.. so we know how long the fight takes ^_^
With that early aggression from Tatoh, I don't think Viper could've protected his traders, which would've been very costly. Deer Stones might have actually been the right choice for once. Then again, he went for the (short distance) trade anyhow, so...
Apparently producers get less recognition from the youtube's algorithms if people are not watching the video till the end. IMO the platform should create and offer a new upload option were lenght is "hidden" at first unless you click somewhere to check it out.
for me, trade win is almost mandatory with mongols, the market landarmk is 100% perfect. The other landmark is very stupid, is only speed boost for villagers that you can get in castle age with any tower.
the problem is that you must to protect a lot all the trade line, even the IA on intermedium make that (attack the trade line)XD On elite, they only need to send 2 horse riders to fuck the entire trade line. I really like the trade opening, but only works agains the IA and med-low players XD. If your oponent realize about that, he can prepare an early push and when you have 10 traders and start to think to go to 3º age or build army, the enemy is in your door with 8 knights or 14 archers XD
Silver tree against mongols seems like a suicide, a group of 6-8 speedy riders would kill all the traders. Deer stones on the other hand boost the movement speed of everything including villagers
They aren't if you know how to play against them. Their weakness ironically enough is harass and early game. They can't build walls or keeps so they can't hold onto anything properly. Without trade they will lack gold and can't control far off gold nodes and if they do go for trade you should punish that. Mangudai aren't very good outside of killing villagers because you can counter them easily with armoured units like knights or MAA. They certainly have a few strong points but none of those aren't counterable.
@@mdsmatheus You've never played mongols have you? The mongols literally have the best lategame of all civs. Best traders, best food econ, best overall econ with extra upgrades.
@@taserrr Mongudai are better then what you said cause they can move and kill at the same time unlike other units. So armored units and knights get shat on cause they cant catch-up add the yam network and you will never catcth them unless you ambush them somehow
Someone told me that if you look at the thumbnail and you see a mic at the top right, that means it's a casted game. and if you see a... mouse? then it's played.
If he even does, it wont be for awhile. Not only does he enjoy aoe 4, it's a fantastic career opportunity for Drongo to integrate himself into the scene early. Even if he's not making the content you want be happy for the guy.
@@kylemagnuson9976 I am not a fan of base-builder games set in medieval times, as I feel there are too many of them. AoE3 takes place beteeen the renaissance and industrial eras, and there are fewer such games. Sounds stupid, but that's my tastes.
So refreshing to listen to a fellow Aussie caster. Love ya work mate, keep it up!
When the #1 and #2 players both opt to skip the Silver Tree, it is a good enough reason to deeply think about it. There is a Viper replay where in a Mongols mirror he went for heavy early aggression against someone with a S.T. and completely crushed him, killing all early trade and snowballing from there. I believe the rush distance on this map is too small for S.T. to be safe at a pro level. The speed bonus you get from the other landmark not only makes defence easier against the inevitable early harass, but also boosts villager speed, so you get some economic bonus. Overall I believe it was a wise pick by both. S.T. obsession is something that happens a lot to lower tier players, but a good opponent will be able to punish the greed. It is a heavy early investment and if it fails you can resign.
Good point regarding the economic boost, hadn't thought about that.
idk if it was that smart of a choice in this case because he eventually still went hard into trading early, so he saved the money from the yam network and had "some" economic gain from the villagers on crack but he spent a lot more in traders that he would have if he went ST. He barely did any infantry so the improved yam network didn't really help there either. Tatoh's plan of going deer stone for the economic gain and skipping trade seem better
it depends on map, if the trade route is easy to defend and you know your oponent is focusing more on eco/booming, silver tree demolishes any other boom when done. Issue is defending and upgrading the trade, so in open maps with neutral market far away its not a good idea to do it
you can get the speed bonus without a landmark, the upgrade is quite cheap
the key word he said is; If you are opening aggresive ( like tato was) you have the map control to get some sick trading going., even though i wouldnt like to use most of my stone for making traders.
Thank you for uploading these casts of AOE4, there isnt a lot out there right now. Love the content.
The traction trebuchet is an interesting choice considering the mongols introduced counterweight trebuchet into china, having picked it up from conflicts in the middle east, using persian siege engineers.
Yeah historically China should have the Traction and the Mongols should have counterweight, but ya gotta make adjustments for gameplay i guess
I love Viper Watch, thanks, really enjoying these
Okay, packing the landmark to use as bait is a big brained move.
good move but surprising that it worked so well on viper
TaToh is an insanely good AoE player. His AoE2 plays are amazing to watch, highly recommend.
our discord group be like : FRANKS OP
Comments be like: NO mongols OP
Teir liests be like :RUS OP
me playing aoe2 : wtf is going on over there
The real OP faction is the friends we made along the way.
where my HRE and abassid homies at :(
Homing arrows are the real OP. You thought you were safe inside zat stone building mon cheri? Oh no no non, think again!
What's going on is no faction is OP it's just people crying because they don't know how to play against certain factions despite them having big weaknesses. The game is out for 2 weeks now and as usual with any new game something has to be called "op" and something "shit" even when they're like 1-5% close to each other, the game is actually incredibly balanced for release and there's no such thing as an OP civ. Sure there could be some minor tweaks here and there and some bug fixes but that's to be expected for a new competitive game.
It's almost as if this 2 weeks old game still needs to be figured out. Weird right?
Final arrow in the carcass 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Beautiful comentary
Ovoo is the best S tier structure. If I'm not mistaken the Ovoo aura also boost production of units and research
Not passively. It just allows for an upgraded version of each technology as well as the opportunity to make double of each unit.
The aura buff the production of sheep in the pastures
@@rafaelpesconi6362 yes, sheep but not units
I see, I'm on Mongol campaign right now and having a blast playing this civ, I just cramp all bases around Ovoo to maximize the aura
One thing to note is that it's not a free double production. It costs stone equal to food+wood. (ie 50f + 50g + 100s)
Love this Viper watch series!
It's not everyday you see Viper getting crushed like that.
Enjoying your stream and love the accent 👍👍
Tatoh played this so well!
Yes!
This is the AussieDrongo “viper watch channel” now lol
Would love to see some 2v2 and 3v3 games.
Thank for playing Mongols
The silver tree is a big declaration that you are going trade. For Mongols mirror it's very risky since raiding will happen all the time from both sides with high mobility units, and the lack of defense option means you probably won't get the trader investment back, unless you are against incompetent players
History and physics nerds dissapointed about you not even remembering the counterweight trebuchet! Jokes aside, great match , great casting!
Viper really messed up by not using the Ovoo to it's maximum effect
always need more Ovoo
Tatoh did an even worse job, his ovoo depleted at 14:50 and he never made a new one
@@zilliq That's not really worse. Using it for his early aggression gave him the win. Ideally, he would've gone for a new ovoo and move his production and research there, but he was concentrating on his push.
"Tell you what you never like being a hufflepuff" so true so true.
Ugh I think I figured out another Mongol exploit coming from stupid fast building movement during this game. Put your caravans together, move the market to the opposite corner from the trade post, let caravans pick up goods at the trade post and meet them with the super fast moving market in between, repeat. Imagine two synchronized Mongol players trading with each other like that in 2v2.
Pretty sure the resources gained from a trader dropping off are based on the distance between the markets at drop off not the amount picked up from the tradepost.
@@noname-sj1hi if you click on the traders after going to the neutral market they show how much they have on them like villagers with resources so distance matters on collection not on deposit. Unless that value can change on the way back.
@@williamschubert4819 Yes the value changes if you move the market. If you move the market further away the value will increase as the trader is going from the tradingpost to your market and conversely it will decrease if you move it closer by.
Better yet, the trade income is based on the home market. This home market can be changed at any time. So, make a bunch of markets around the intended trade market. Mass up a bunch of traders. Then, have a home market as far away as you're able to safely get. Finally, simply select all the traders around that trade market, reset their home market to that there ideally/best possible market. Enjoy the free half trip on all of them. :)
@@williamschubert4819 yup the value on the trader changes when the market moves
Mongols my fav civ just so good
It's amazing ! I m asking is it possible to have the review of the game ? Like on sc2. To analyse the bo
Ovoo pronunciation is actually 'oh-voo'
"Casted" still sounds weird to me, but looking it up it is actually a very very old correct form of 'cast' so I'll live with it. That was a good video you 'casted' drongo.
Tatoh is pronounced Tat-oh fyi mate. Love your work
I play mongol civs, I used to like the market landmark, but then I opted to deerstones more, because not only it boost your units, but it also boost your villagers speed, either way for economy-wise, I would take extra speed than just "economy", thus both player take Deerstones instead.
It really depends on the map because a great market spawn can mean you can purely rely on trade
And you can get the same buff of deer stones in age 3 with an outpost.
@@ethand6260 Also teams, 1v1 i would prefer stones while in 2v2 silver tree
he just insulted huffle puff
Aussie: Hiding timer in game, so we cant see the length of the fight, but having the video on youtube have the same time.. so we know how long the fight takes ^_^
With that early aggression from Tatoh, I don't think Viper could've protected his traders, which would've been very costly. Deer Stones might have actually been the right choice for once. Then again, he went for the (short distance) trade anyhow, so...
vaipa is tired he reached top 1 in ladder probably need a rest
I’m a simple man, I see viper and I click, I see viper plays mongols and I fap.
about video length you can add some minutes at the end of the video randomly for spoiler prevention
Apparently producers get less recognition from the youtube's algorithms if people are not watching the video till the end. IMO the platform should create and offer a new upload option were lenght is "hidden" at first unless you click somewhere to check it out.
Does anyone know if Aussie is a caster? I asked that since He rocks. So entertaining to watch
Yes, he cast games on his twitch.
When not playing ofc. 😎
for me, trade win is almost mandatory with mongols, the market landarmk is 100% perfect. The other landmark is very stupid, is only speed boost for villagers that you can get in castle age with any tower.
the problem is that you must to protect a lot all the trade line, even the IA on intermedium make that (attack the trade line)XD On elite, they only need to send 2 horse riders to fuck the entire trade line. I really like the trade opening, but only works agains the IA and med-low players XD. If your oponent realize about that, he can prepare an early push and when you have 10 traders and start to think to go to 3º age or build army, the enemy is in your door with 8 knights or 14 archers XD
I want to learn mongols but i am curious. Does every land map have neutral market?
Not all of them no, "king of the hill" doesnt for example
@@Thomas-nr7vf Good to know, thank you.
Silver tree against mongols seems like a suicide, a group of 6-8 speedy riders would kill all the traders. Deer stones on the other hand boost the movement speed of everything including villagers
uWu
I didn't come to see Viper lose :'(
Same, I hate watching Viper lose
@@Tracker947 why lol
Drongo has beaten him a couple of times now
Just sayin
There is way points in AoE4, I use them all the time. Or did I not hear Drongo correctly? 14:20
he can't see waypoints as a spectator. that's what he was getting at :)
I prefer the sweet potato network, myself. :)
YEEEEEESSSSSS!!!! ANOTHER LOSS FOR THE VIPER!!! nothing against him, it's just rare seeing him lose on TH-cam. LOVE IT!
spoiler alert
@@claymathews8814 sorry man. I never look at comments before i watch
@@fxxs8182 lmao yeah shoulda know better
anyone else think the horse units should be a bit faster?
the silver tree trains 2x faster not 2x cheaper right ?
gold cost is 2x cheaper
Drongo mate, I love your content but they're not Monghouls 😉😅
How do you say Mongol in Mongolian?
Madness? Its more like how to do not play mongols. ;)
Microsoft appears to have made the Mongols too historically accurate, which means they're OP as shit.
They aren't if you know how to play against them. Their weakness ironically enough is harass and early game. They can't build walls or keeps so they can't hold onto anything properly. Without trade they will lack gold and can't control far off gold nodes and if they do go for trade you should punish that.
Mangudai aren't very good outside of killing villagers because you can counter them easily with armoured units like knights or MAA. They certainly have a few strong points but none of those aren't counterable.
@@mdsmatheus You've never played mongols have you? The mongols literally have the best lategame of all civs. Best traders, best food econ, best overall econ with extra upgrades.
@@taserrr Mongudai are better then what you said cause they can move and kill at the same time unlike other units. So armored units and knights get shat on cause they cant catch-up add the yam network and you will never catcth them unless you ambush them somehow
@@mdsmatheus The towncenter is pretty much a fort and they have outposts which give speed boost. So they do have defensive stuff
@@202adr Yeah no, they don't and if you'd ever played knights vs mangudai you wouldn't have said that.
how tf can we see the player score? :(
Only in replays
Your casts are amazing, but could you make it more clear wether ur casting or playing yourself? Keep up the great work man!
Someone told me that if you look at the thumbnail and you see a mic at the top right, that means it's a casted game. and if you see a... mouse? then it's played.
Ovoo, what's this?
Do you not get disheartened constantly contradicting yourself Drongo?
You make a prediction and the game instantly shows you up
What exactly do you mean
second!
uwu
UwU
When can we go back to AoE3: DE?
If he even does, it wont be for awhile. Not only does he enjoy aoe 4, it's a fantastic career opportunity for Drongo to integrate himself into the scene early. Even if he's not making the content you want be happy for the guy.
aoe3 is trash. why do you prefer it over aoe4? It's widely regarded as the worst game of the entire aoe series.
@@kylemagnuson9976 I am not a fan of base-builder games set in medieval times, as I feel there are too many of them. AoE3 takes place beteeen the renaissance and industrial eras, and there are fewer such games.
Sounds stupid, but that's my tastes.
Never.
@@mayuri4184 well I respect that, its a much clearer opinion compared to many people's opinion of why they didnt liked aoe 4
get rekt.
istead of talking about the game you should be concentrating on what the players are doing, cmon bro.