I am so obsessed with this rendition!! Kyle Gann needs to hear this, it could easily be another movement of Hyperchromatica haha -- I'm not a huge classical scholar, but I'm not at all surprised that some of this type of atonal piano repertoire belongs in 11-limit JI. This is a fascinating idea, and lends so much more credibility and awareness to extended JI!
This is awesome. How did you decide on using 13-limit just intonation for this piece in particular as opposed to 5-limit or 7-limit? Do some systems suit particular pieces better?
I settled on 13-limit because Scriabin's Mystic Chord is generally agreed to consist of harmonics 7-11 and 13, and indeed it's used as a straightforward 13th chord throughout Vers la flamme. In almost all cases the root of the chord is clear, and given any such root, the most colorful, consonant, resonant, and stable tuning is a 13-limit 13th chord.
What is your rationale for choosing which "conventional" interval maps to which just interval based on the note root? I ask because for very simple triads and seventh chords (I'm only really familiar with septimal harmony), I understand how it works, but when it extends too far from the root on the circle of fifths the intervals seem to fall apart. For example, on the major sixth it often sounds odd as a Pythagorean major sixth or just major sixth because of the relationship between it and the major third and major ninth (which also can't be lowered by a syntonic comma because it clashes with the fifth, which I think is non-negotiable). It seems like this would have to be an unavoidable issue with Scriabin's highly extended chords--is that why you further extended the limit to 13? I'd be curious to see a version of this transcribed to Ben Johnston's notation, or something along those lines.
Thanks for your question! I use 13-limit not just to avoid the syntonic comma, but because it seems clear to me (and to most theorists) that Scriabin's mystic chord is simply a thirteenth chord, comprised of the prime partials of the harmonic series (omitting the third partial), and that therefore the thirteenth is just as much a citizen of the chord as a major third of minor seventh, and has an identity of its own not derivable from Pythagorean or 5-limit tuning. Plus, 4:5:7:9:11:13 is the most consonant and periodic tuning of this chord which permeates the piece. Here is a sketch of the opening, and a few examples of some special moments throughout the piece that I compiled for an informal presentation: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1sJbcRcWFXa8vqQfAa4riIrTK6AIdUXqH?usp=sharing
@@JustMusic1685 Thank you for responding! You can't know how helpful this was. After years of light microtonality (mostly to do with keyboard temperament) and assuming just intonation was entirely impossible it somehow never occurred to me to just use higher partials. This produces some nice results.
@@SharonChenMusic It's not out of tune, it's just a higher just intonation prime limit (I think it's 11-limit or 13-limit). Classical music generally uses 5-limit, so it might sound out of tune, but it's actually mathematically more in tune than an equal-tempered piano.
Definitely the best performance of Vers la flamme in just intonation I've ever heard.
Thank you so much, Piotr Ilyich
Scriabin's music is some of the most meriting of just intonation
I am so obsessed with this rendition!! Kyle Gann needs to hear this, it could easily be another movement of Hyperchromatica haha -- I'm not a huge classical scholar, but I'm not at all surprised that some of this type of atonal piano repertoire belongs in 11-limit JI. This is a fascinating idea, and lends so much more credibility and awareness to extended JI!
This gave me pure goosebumps, especially passage from 3:27 is nothing like the usual Vers la falmme I've ever heard of. Amazing
Towards the flame but the flame got depression.
This is awesome. How did you decide on using 13-limit just intonation for this piece in particular as opposed to 5-limit or 7-limit? Do some systems suit particular pieces better?
I settled on 13-limit because Scriabin's Mystic Chord is generally agreed to consist of harmonics 7-11 and 13, and indeed it's used as a straightforward 13th chord throughout Vers la flamme. In almost all cases the root of the chord is clear, and given any such root, the most colorful, consonant, resonant, and stable tuning is a 13-limit 13th chord.
So much more sinister
that 13th harmonic hits soooooo good 🤤🤤🤤
did you just summoned scriabin?
Just
This is beautiful. The end is magnificent!! JI based on E ? right?
Thank you so much! Yeah, it’s in JI but only loosely based on E. There are hundreds of pitches per octave to get each chord in tune
@@JustMusic1685 I wholeheartedly agree on this. That's the way to go. !! Cheers!
Just intonation
what do you do to reach this sound?
I use the Pianoteq instrument library in Digital Performer, making dozens of tracks each with a different tuning scale, each good for 2 or 3 chords
What is your rationale for choosing which "conventional" interval maps to which just interval based on the note root? I ask because for very simple triads and seventh chords (I'm only really familiar with septimal harmony), I understand how it works, but when it extends too far from the root on the circle of fifths the intervals seem to fall apart. For example, on the major sixth it often sounds odd as a Pythagorean major sixth or just major sixth because of the relationship between it and the major third and major ninth (which also can't be lowered by a syntonic comma because it clashes with the fifth, which I think is non-negotiable). It seems like this would have to be an unavoidable issue with Scriabin's highly extended chords--is that why you further extended the limit to 13? I'd be curious to see a version of this transcribed to Ben Johnston's notation, or something along those lines.
Thanks for your question! I use 13-limit not just to avoid the syntonic comma, but because it seems clear to me (and to most theorists) that Scriabin's mystic chord is simply a thirteenth chord, comprised of the prime partials of the harmonic series (omitting the third partial), and that therefore the thirteenth is just as much a citizen of the chord as a major third of minor seventh, and has an identity of its own not derivable from Pythagorean or 5-limit tuning. Plus, 4:5:7:9:11:13 is the most consonant and periodic tuning of this chord which permeates the piece. Here is a sketch of the opening, and a few examples of some special moments throughout the piece that I compiled for an informal presentation: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1sJbcRcWFXa8vqQfAa4riIrTK6AIdUXqH?usp=sharing
@@JustMusic1685 Thank you for responding! You can't know how helpful this was. After years of light microtonality (mostly to do with keyboard temperament) and assuming just intonation was entirely impossible it somehow never occurred to me to just use higher partials. This produces some nice results.
did you use here extended just intonation?
Yeah, mostly 13-limit but with a couple 17th and 19th partials in the opening
Why its sound like microtonal ???
because it is : D
Different than the Scriabin I am used to.. sounds like horror movie.. piano out of tune a bit purposely? But adds to ambiance
It's not out of tune! It's relative!
I know the tunings in this type of historical writings are important..
@@SharonChenMusic It's not out of tune, it's just a higher just intonation prime limit (I think it's 11-limit or 13-limit). Classical music generally uses 5-limit, so it might sound out of tune, but it's actually mathematically more in tune than an equal-tempered piano.