The SCAM Outdoor Brands Don't Want You To Know
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
- Jackets Shown in this Video:
ArcTeryx Beta LT Shell: geni.us/b80Duxt
Columbia OutDry: geni.us/iNhdC
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Jackets Shown in this Video:
ArcTeryx Beta LT Shell: geni.us/7MHDw
Columbia OutDry: geni.us/Of76iq
Great video, thanks! Have you ever tested any alternative technologies to membranes such as Paramo Nikwax Analogy gear? I'd be interested to hear what you thought about how those compare to Goretex and other membranes.
Would have been nice to hear your conclusion on the Columbia OutDry. Also a scam?
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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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Just curious, what do you do for your career? I have a daughter going to college, a 16-year-old, and a 10 year old. We live in Mississippi and I’m trying to open their minds to different types of jobs.
Great video can’t wait to share it to them !!!
To be honest, I worked at an hiking/trekking shop and I knew this for years. Since then I became a huge fan of ponchos. Especially expeds‘ pack poncho. Ponchos allow more airflow underneath and do not even try to lie about „breathability“ and protect you AND your gear from becoming wet. Also it is easy to put it on/off during light rain or when the rain pauses for a few minutes: The poncho can be attached to the Backpack so you just throw it over your head and it hangs there behind you and when rain sets in again you just reach back, grab the thing and pull it over your head again. And in case of very heavy rain or wind you can combine a poncho with a pair of rainchaps to protect your legs, but they leave your crotch open which helps ventilation by a higher amount!
That said:
Great Video! Thank you for that much time and effort! It’s always a pleasure to watch your videos!
Experienced and did the same ... since 1986.
Since then I wear a rain jacket in the city and a poncho when backpacking.
Also, I still use a backpack with an external frame (heavier, but better airflow and better load bearing when needed).
To clarify, I still have 2 Goretex rain jackets. And I also own 3 backpacks with internal frames.
What Poncho do you recommend?
@@frankhunt5018 the pack poncho by Exped for hiking with a larger backpack.
Exped makes a variety of different ponchos for different needs.
@@frankhunt5018The Gortex Poncho.
@@wimahlers i love a poncho in the city
Thank you. You have convinced me that I shouldn't hike in wet weather or buy expensive fabrics. I'm good with that.
Sunny skies and cheap shit is the way to go 100%
Yep, less of you on the trail in the rain, is better for me. ❤
Or get an umbrella.
@@flippy66arcteryx, Patagonia and gortex are suppressing umbrella technology
@@flippy66 Right there with you. I always hike with an umbrella if it's wet outside. People look at me like I'm weird but at least I'm dry. Goretex and everything else is only so waterproof. I also found the Z-packs ponchos are great as well.
I'm a former REI sales specialist in camping and outdoor clothing. I was geared up with all the best equipment and started out on a long Appalachian Trail thru hike and quickly realized that GoreTex and other similar fabrics were indeed useless in the rain soaked conditions on the trail in the humid south. The best thing was to just suck it up and expect to get wet and hope to dry out later on. Open up the vents and pit zips and flush as much air through the jacket as you can. The GoreTex shoes were also useless so again just expect to get wet, live with it and know that you can dry out later on. If you encounter a quick and short shower then you may be protected if the shower doesn't last too long. Often just wearing GoreTex outer wear gets one hot and sweaty and it basically begins raining on the inside.
Yes, it is a bit surprising that lots of people expect to stay perfectly dry in pouring rain, weather doesn't really work like that. I'm more than happy to settle for damp but warm, to be honest.
100%. I've worked professionally in the ski industry as a Lift Operator for years, and we have to spend hours standing in blizzard conditions, rainy conditions, and everything in-between while working hard shoveling snow and doing other physically demanding work. And I can tell you as someone who professionally is paid to be outdoors and do sweaty work: the best waterproof jackets you can get, are just the fully rubberized heavy duty rain gear. And if you want to stay warm, just have a puffer underneath. These crazy goretex systems are just completely unnecessary and most of them get you wet anyway. Just wear an oversized rubberized rain jacket so it allows air to move underneath it and you'll stay much dryer.
Here in Northumberland U.K. the guys in £30 pig farming rubber jackets are dry and toasty: me in my £300 goretex, wet and prehypothermic!
Thank you
Agree 100%. I work outdoors in southeast Alaska, nobody wears the high tech fabrics. Grundens, Helly Hansen, and even Carhartt all make pvc rain gear that keeps you dry, and isn't terribly heavy.
Hmmmm I worked at a nursery in all conditions, my goretex fabrics worked great
@@Happy-Hunter89 Yeah we use the Helly Hanson Workwear gear on Mt Hood and it works great. Fantastic stuff.
After spending $1000 on a “gore-Tex pro” jacket, I thought it was the best jacket going for years. But after multiple rainy days on trail I noticed I was soaked on the inside. It was a hard pill to swallow realizing that the jacket was just as useful as a $30 frog toggs. Confirmation bias is totally real and it hits close to home
Though I'll put money on which one lasts the longest...at least your GTX Pro should last, personally I try and avoid as I don't like being a boil-in-a-bag.
Then I’ll be taking your money😂 To give you a timeline, I bought the original jacket late 2020. Summer 2022 some of the seams started to delaminate. Arc’Terxy warranted the jacket for me and I bought the same model again. Now the new one has recently started to wet through in the upper shoulder blades area.. as Steven pointed out, these jackets are made out of “forever chemicals”. I actually posted a video talking about this situation yesterday
@@dakotacoburn Ooooh, didn't know it was that bad. I wouldn't even buy Arc’Teryx on sale... I'm sticking with my Paramo gear, last for decades even though they're more work reproofing.
@@LoremIpsum1970 Yea and every time you do the reproofing process you are getting and very very large step closer to the seam tape coming off, your suffering from the very type of confirmation bias this video talked about bud.
@@-TheRealChris Do some research! This fabric lasts over 20 years of maintenance (not for the PCT or AT, and weighs more than GTX), waterproofing is waterbased, it's repairable, you can sew it yourself (they will also repair for a fee), there's no membrane, it's not laminated, there's no taped seams, etc... It was invented by the same person who invented nik-wax in the UK. Used by mountain rescue in the UK. An alternative would be ven-tile, another UK fabric.
You continue to take this hobby segment to a higher level. Props
Finally some simple physics instead of marketing bs. As an engineer, loved that home measurement setup.
Gore-tex has limitations. It's not a "scam". This is video clickbait.
Even though it's a re-hash of someone else's work. Have seen this story elsewhere on TH-cam a year or more ago
...
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
I worked in the extreme sportswear industry and we knew that the best that "breathable" fabrics could do under the ideal circumstances was about a 7% improvement. If the outside or inside got wet from precipitation or sweat, it was like a thick plastic sheet. But if you did not have "breathable", few people would buy. They were well trained consumers. Since we had an extreme customer base who knew when things were working and not, we were very early with the zip vents in pits, pockets, pant legs, .... And we had the flap vents also.
“When humidity is high, these jackets don’t seem to breathe at all.”
This was my experience with Gore-Tex hiking the West Highland Way in Scotland. I stayed dryer wearing shorts, sandals, and a large cheap poncho than my fellows hikers in full length head to toe waterproof gear.
(Note: Poncho goes OVER the backpack)
I think it was priests in Amazon who were on missionary trips and nearly killed them with pneumonia. Guilted them for being naked, so they put on clothes, stayed wet all the time instead of being able to sluff off water, and of course got sick.
@kenmorrisproducer What poncho did you use?
That is all well and good if you can stay warm in the cold and wind
@@danthelambboy Military poncho comes with a liner, so standard layering on self, liner inside poncho, and fold around body to secure with belt or rope. Arms are typically down to side so you don't lose that much body heat, esp if already moving. If it's blowing that bad, you should probably stop to take shelter anyway. There are some trade offs to a jacket, but weight, versatility, effectiveness, COST - it's really hard to beat. If you're going into an area where it could turn nasty enough - just bring a cheap set of Togs to boot. You can strip naked in jugle with poncho on to the other temp extreme of zero +/- with clothes, togs, and poncho/liner to act as wind/rain break - for what - less than $100 and 10 lbs of gear?
I grew up scouting in the pacific northwest and our leaders use to say things like "No such thing as waterproof and breathable" or "Prepare to be wet and warm, because you can't always be dry". It was great watching this video that explains the science behind that old northwest wisdom.
The wet and warm principle works really well here in the UK where we have two systems that have no hydrostatic head or membrane but use the warmth to drive moisture away.
Reminds me of a quote from a old British mountaineer " the only truly water proof breathable item I'm aware of is an umbrella" dude carried an umbrella with him on his expeditions to lol
WA native here, been camping and hiking and x-country skiing my whole life. The best, most life-saving advice: wear layers, wear wool, bring extra socks in a waterproof bag, don't count on "killer cotton" to help you if it gets wet.
The amount of time, energy and research you put into your videos is astounding. Keep up the great work! I love seeing the testing contraptions you come up with.
Thanks so much for this! I’ve always thought gore tex was overhyped but that there were no alternatives. Also good to know it ultimately stems from DuPont tech, a company that has had several goes at extinguishing all life on the planet and very nearly succeeding.
The problem is people thinking they need a gore Tex jacket for hiking. Its purpose is for high altitude mountaineering where air is way dryer and the jacket works best in those conditions. It will never be wet and breathable at the same time, but it does allow some breathability over cheap rain jackets.
The problem is not „people thinking“, the problem is that that‘s what they (Gore-Tex) made ‚people‘ believe - intentionally so.
Gore-tex is absolutely not marketed as being only for high altitude mountaineering, and you're the first person i've ever even heard claim that.
Everyday jackets use goretex, trail shoes use goretex, headgear uses goretex. It may be more suited for high altitude use but it is definitely made for all environments
@@BlueShift815 It is definitely a marketing
Sounds like the typical disjoint between the R&D and marketing departments. Joys of late stage capitalism, lol!
I've tried having this conversation with so many people but they are do deeply invested in the marketing bull crap to listen
these jackets are far better suited for higher altitude environments where the air is dry and you are more likely to deal with snow than rain than for a backpacking rain coat. I carry a simple north face rain jacket with pit zips and it works just fine
Working in NZ, outdoors all day in saturated bush, off track deep scrub. You'll never ever be try. You shouldn't even try. Layer up with thermals, create thermal barriers and let the 'waterproof' layer do it's actual job, wind barrier and insulator. Wet and warm is the goal. Dry is staying home.
If you are in a high altitude, low humidity environment why do you need a waterproof layer? (not a mountaineer - just asking)
@@chriswilliams1096Usually it doubles as your wind breaker, and when it does rain it tends to blow over more quickly so the air humidity doesn't get as bad as other places
Below 0 air can hold so little water that your fancy jacket won't work. Thinned high altitude air means even less water air can carry. You're giving bad advices pal
This is IMHO the best video you have made yet. In fact, I think anyone who is new to the outdoors, and even many veterans, would benefit from watching this. I'm suspecting that you are proving what they are already experiencing, but you are adding rigor to their anecdotes.
If you search for "gore-tex scam" videos on TH-cam you find this script is like all the others. Zero research done apart from plagiarising others.
Right? I was so surprised by the change of content and the way it is showed. It's unusual for content creator to change in a better way after some time
I really appreciate you trying to objectively science the heck out of consumer goods for a more educated customer. Tests we may never have thought of, found, or too lazy to do that you're taking to their natural conclusions. Thanks for doing the hard work bud and all of the content you work on!
When a daily downpour broke in a Central American jungle, we broke out our Gortex the guide broke out an umbrella. Two hours later we were soaked from the inside out while the guide was wet only from the knees down. Rainwear is just another tool to be used at the right time. Best mitigation though, pit zips! Don’t buy a “waterproof” jacket without them.
Great video backed up with facts.
Correct, Its quite annoying there are so few waterproof jackets with pit zips as standard.
If I remember the Army issue ones might have had them.
Kudos on, yet another, rock star video! Seriously, this is far more effort, with real-world application, than any of my engineering professors every put forth in their teaching experiments.
They knew you would watch regardless for your grade. I have to convince people to watch. 😂
@@MyLifeOutdoors I noticed the Eugene Silberstein parking lot / humidity explanation 👀 👍👏
Thanks Dr Science! You have scientifically proven what my own experience has been telling me for years. Every time I have been caught in substantial rain it became clear, relatively quickly, that my jacket was no longer adequately breathing and I was getting wet from my own perspiration. Now I know why, and that I no longer have to chase the illusion of a “better” rain jacket. Very helpful - thanks!
Your video points out exactly what I learned from guides in Hawaii. I would ask them about the clothing they wear and the most experienced would tell me to forget about the claims of how breathable a fabric is, get pants and jackets with big zipper vents because air circulation is the cat's meow. The more you are moving, the more you sweat, but also the more you are forcing fresh air through the vents. Another huge difference was switching to a mesh ventilated backpack.
If you look through the different membranes they make you'll find that they already have this fabric dialled, it's called gore shakedry and has been implemented in mainly road biking and trail running attire. Due to it essentially being a reversed 2L membrane it shed water off immediately and had a waxy finish, it worked exceptionally well in rainy conditions but due to the fragility of the outer fabric it meant that the membrane would break down under heavy loads. It was designed for little to no need for packs (road cycling, running and trail running) and I can say that with a heavy pack my jacket lasted under a year before there were major leaks in the shoulder and hip areas of the jacket, this too applies to any waterproof and breathable jackets with super light membrane qualities as they're mainly designed to be used sparingly and infrequently in hot climates or in extremely high output pursuits where large packs are not involved
Thank you!!! You managed to adequately cover and explain something technical, without getting too technical and with so many numerical details that I lose interest. And you did it in 8 minutes. Keep up the good work!
Really appreciate this kind of content! Really good companion to the FortNine video that did something similar for motorcycle jackets. As a runner I realized what you concluded in this video and opted for a much cheaper $180 jacket that doesnt use Gore-Tex but has goodish breathability and okay water protection. I just couldn't justify spending multiple hundreds of dollars on a jacket that with exposed membrane (like the Gore R7 Shakedry) that I would almost certainly need to replace in a few years of heavy use because it literally would just not last that long. The exposed membrane literally wears down with things like a running pack on for example.
Thanks. I cane across the FortNine video while researching this topic. It’s a great well made video and helped me tremendously while trying to test these jackets.
Ryan F9 is the GOAT
Amazing. The time, effort, research into the issue is always appreciated! AND I appreciate you calling out the companies who have poisoned us and the environment throughout our lifetimes.
Dude, you are killing it 💪 Love your videos because of your calm tone of voice, the perfect length and no-bullshit information. Really well done, as always. Greetings from Austria!
one thing to also note when people say "my gore-tex never let me down". The current gore-tex membrane arent as resilient anymore as the old ones, because environmental regulation doesnt let them use the longest polymers anymore
Also, quality and features are lacking on newer models compared to a few years ago, eg Mamot GTX
Small correction: The membrane is the same ePTFE that Gore-Tex has always used. What has changed is that DWR coating on the outer layer of the jacket. Gore-Tex jacket makers used to use C8 florocarbons as the DWR, then switched to C6 when C8 was banned, and now some jacket makers will use other DWR. The point is, the membrane is fine, the problem was and is the DWR treatment on the outer fabric.
Outdoor brands should be required to not poison the environment...
And people should look more into sustainable outdoor brands
@@elliotmiller955 the membrane is different now
@@thefig8832 can you provide some explanation? This topic is interesting.
In my opinion it’s somewhat not a scam. If it’s dry outside you have a nice breathable jacket. If it than starts to rain, you don’t need to switch to a raincoat. It’s like 2 separate jackets in one. Just don’t expect it to be both at the same time
My Columbia Omni-Tech rain jacket is like that. Nice windbreaker type layer when dry but works great in the rain also. Probably had it for 10 years and still hasn’t failed me
Easy to say when you know - but it is not what‘s the adverts want to make you think it is. Simple math, still deception.
I was about to say this, for hiking i'd say goretex or similar materials are a "scam" just bring a decent poncho. But for everyday use like me living in the netherlands biking everywhere and not having to swap to a rainjacket when it rains (which is all of the time), it's ideal for everyday use.
The video is well made and largely accurate…however there is nothing new here…it’s basic science yes but it’s been acknowledged for years that Goretex works best in cold dry conditions…this is no great revelation. It’s not a scam as it has never really claimed otherwise. The issue is becoming more pertinent now thanks to more eco friendly water based DWRs which are not as effective at shedding water droplets. Entertaining stuff but not telling us anything that isn’t widely known.
it's DEFINITELY not a scam, he is exaggerating like crazy and being very one sided. Wateproof jackets are definitely very helpful in a decent amount of situations.
As a scout in the PNW, I learned that rain gear fails pretty quickly in a downpour. But if you’re relatively warm, it’s not so bad and you’ll get over it.
Yeah, I don't mind being wet; it's being overheated that kills me! Much easier to get warm than to cool off.
I love rain...
Another point that i, for some reason, rarely hear in the WPB fabric debate is that sweat isn’t just water. It has a fairly high concentration of minerals, which also make it harder for the water to evaporate. And when after extensive use these minerals pile up on the inside of the goretex membrane, they can actually pull the water in through the goretex. Which is especially a problem with goretex shoes.
Kudos. The time and energy you put into research and production of this short video is incredible. Best rain jacket explanation ever.
Edit; firstly I’m a fan of the channel. Secondly, GoreTex can be both breathable and waterproof simultaneously, assuming ‘correct’ conditions for the fabric to work efficiently . Gortex works, but it has its limitations. Your test created a humidity equilibrium either side of the fabric; of course this leads to no further evaporation. As you say, in cold/low relative/absolute humidity environments goretex will perform just fine. Raining isn’t a guarantee of high humidity as liquid water and water vapour are two different things, and the DWR is there to mitigate surface liquid from wetting out the fabric. If rain persists, humidity will rise due to the liquid rain beginning to evaporate; raising absolute and relative humidity. However rain is not an indication of inherent high humidity to the point that makes GoreTex immediately ineffective. In cold mountain environments with high winds, driving snow and low absolute humidity (absolute and relative humidity are two different metrics. Ref psychrometric chart for further info) with the user exerting a moderate effort (likely the largest use case scenario for GoreTex) it’ll work just fine.
I totally second this opinion, which I shared in a similar comment. For alpinists Gore-Tex works well. I add that in a rain forrest you'll get soaked with ANY shell, no matter what is the material, so better not to use a rain jacket at all if you plan a trip in Borneo.
As stated, "it can be breathable and waterproof," which is the main selling point of this whole gore-tex thing. However, it's not breathable and waterproof at the same time, what's clearly proved. That's ok..., but the companies should stop with this bullshit and start being honest while advertising their products as opposed to trap people to sell their shit at a ridiculously high price.
@@mikeb.9341 it can be though Mike. It’s condition dependant. Steven isn’t correct with that blanket statement
Plus you can always play with the air flow.
The other day I was hiking in a chill mountain, it was raining lightly but constant. I sweat a lot, and at some time I started to feel cold, so I put on the rain jacket. When I felt hot again, I opened the zippers, this way my body heat kept me dry from the rain coming in the front, and my back was dry thanks to the jacket.
The moment I got to the top of the mountain, the air was strong and still raining, closed the jacket completely, the humidity inside evaporated while I set up my tent, and I was feeling fine except for my fingers that froze.
Would a plastic bag or umbrella allowed that? Definitely not.
What about a cheap jacket? I don't think my sweat would had evaporated so easily.
What about a really expensive one? Probably not needed as well.
The same goes for the rest of the equipment, that is the reason we don trek in jeans and cotton shirts. We need to be breathable.
@@mikeb.9341 Mike it can be! It’s condition dependent. Steven is wrong with this statement
Your research is appreciated. Experience is an excellent teacher which is why I carry an umbrella. I have never had been truly dry with only rain gear.
Just going to share an experience that may be helpful to others. Hiking some years ago in N.H. in November. Some snow on the ground, snow in trees-melting and dripping, exceptionally wet. Temps 33-34F. After maybe 3 hours, we arrive at the shelter soaked to the bone and while fine hiking, begin to chill quickly once stopped (as expected). Instead of changing into some dryer clothing, realizing that the wet clothes won't dry well at all, I decided to just walk (w/o pack) at a speed that generated heat but not enough to sweat while opening my jacket zipper and vents accordingly. After about 20 minutes from the shelter I felt the idea was working and turned around to head back. Back at the shelter after about a forty minute leisurely walk, I was bone dry! We were higher now in elevation so trees were much shorter (less dripping) than 'in the forest.' Even the outer wear was dry (breezier up high). Probably (as I remember it), only my leather hiking boots were still somewhat wet. It was great learning experience in managing wet conditions.
Pretty much my experience. It’s not the jackets or the materials (gore-tex) but the way in which people use them.
I found out in the 90’s when I was a long distance runner that Gortex didn't breathe very well. Since then I've used Gortex drysuits when I've been whitewater kayaking and even when I've come out of my boat & fully in the water they've kept me dry but if the weather is warm then sweat can definitely build up.
Good reminder to have an umbrella in the Summer.
Great video! After my lightweight OR Helium jacket wetted out while on the PCT I ditched all of my GT rain jackets for a true waterproof non breathable jacket from LightHeart Gear with full length side zippers. I’ve never worn waterproof pants while backpacking so I decided to give a ULA Rain Kilt a try along with a Gossamer Gear Lighttrek Umbrella to keep the rain & sun off me & my pack. Good videos. Keep up the good work!
It seems to me in my experience, that not only does goretex not breathe and keep water out at the same time, it also does both of these things poorly, so its almost just a bad jacket except in dry conditions where you wouldnt have needed a rain jacket.
I now only buy simpler gear, and am happy with that.
It's one hell of a trick to pull to convince people that you can be (completely) dry outdoors when it's raining. I mean, you can for a while, but not long term. Like in the video - water is falling from the sky. You can cover against it with an umbrella, with GTX, with a rubber suit, whatever but eventually you will get damp, either from the moisture in the air or from your own body.
I appreciate the amount of thought and time you take to test - keep up the great work
Your channel is amazing mate. You have really put in the research and hard yards and not just pushing out 'fast food easy to make videos'. I really appreciate your efforts, knowledge and insights. Cheers from Australia 🇦🇺
Love this video and actually it explains how I’ve felt with my goretex jacket through my years of use.
1. Performance in heavy rain - meh, keeps water out. But yes with sweating or anything condensation sits in the jacket
2. Performance for high winds, alpine conditions surrounded by snow where you want to have breathable but shell like barrier to make sure any melting ice or snow is not getting you wet. I’ve been glad to have it
The experience above makes sense now with the video
Thank you. Some real science. There is also a temperature gradient from skin through any insulation to the inner jacket surface. As moist air moves through the insulation to the surface, it cools and loses capacity to hold water vapour. So the water condenses out into droplets which cannot pass through the
GoreTex and soaks the interior. I’m always wet wearing the stuff.
Thank you for explaining this so well! I have grown tired of explaining this to others and was too inexperienced to make my own video.
This was in part why I converted to using a rain cape for bicycling (better airflow) and when I go camping in our typical PNW winter I ensure wicking-synthetic or wool layers because I know it’s not if I get wet, but if I can stay warm when I do get wet.
I’ve never seen so much amount or work and organization has been flawlessly put together in an 8min video👏 this episode needs to be put on a mini docuseries on Netflix about modern days scams
All that testing and analyzing was unbelievable. And very true. Amazing video. After having so many rain jackets for my 25 years of hiking i found out that the only one I can really trust and love is my umbrella. Keeps me dry when it rains and cool when the sun is out and hot 😊
I've been an all-weather hiker and motorcyclist for 40 years, and only bought a Gore-Tex labeled product once. It worked no more efficiently than my standard rain gear, cost me a fortune, and was an overall disappointment. Thanks for doing such an in-depth study on the non-effects of Gore's waterproof/breathable claims. You're doing a great public service by showing that one does not need to spend huge amounts of money on gear to achieve good results. Of course, that leaves more money for other new gear! :) Great channel!!
Bilt rain jacket is hard to beet for the price.
Bilt is a crapshoot. I've had some gear fail immediately and some last for years 🤷🏻♂️
@@rrandydduke I've been riding with Olympia gear for several years, and their rain liners work extremely well. I carry the lightweight liner to use when hiking as well.
I think it even worse that stated: If you have Gortex boots even on a low humidity warm day, the rate you create moisture overwhelms the silly slow rate the gortex can breath. You might as well be wearing plastic bags on your feet if you want to ford a stream. It is completely worthless.
Yeap. I've had 2 pairs of GoreTex hiking boots from expensive brands, and have been disappointed with both of them.
There’s different grades of goretex for footwear. The insulated / performance / extended grades in the Comfort range for footwear are designed for different temp ranges. Even some military desert boots use Extended Comfort, mainly for pathogen protection ie from dirty Afghan open sewers. It works great in hot weather. I’ve worn boots with it in the summer with it no issue, breathes as well as a non goretex boot. Absolutely critical to use the right products with it though, regular polish will make any boot a sauna.
The real hassle is drying them in the field if they get wet inside; basically forget about it until you get somewhere dry. If you know your boots will get wet inside you’re better off with a non WP boot and using WP socks instead.
Right, I had Gore Tex boots about 30 years ago. Never again!
I'm old enough to remember the pre GoreTex days - at least pre GoreTex where I lived. What I had before where cotton and polyester-cotton blends (like the G1000 used by Fjellraven) treated for waterproofness. These kind of worked - actually really well in misty conditions or with snow well below freezing - but just didn't work well in heavy prolonged rain. I remember biking to school a couple of times in a cotton "waterproof" outdoorsy and almost new jacket and it worked for the 15-20 minutes ride, but after an hour in steady rain it just wet thru.
So going hiking with these types of clothes I'd bring a lightweight really waterproof jacket in addition. The other option was to leave the cotton jacket at home and bring only a more heavy-duty rain jacket that certainly would keep the rain out but was unnecessary uncomfortable if the rain let up.
Then GoreTex came along, and I bought one of the first jackets available where I lived. And it worked! Not like some miracle fabric that solved every problem, but it was lighter than my cotton jacket and much lighter than an outdoorsy jacket plus a rain jacket. It also kept me at least as dry in rain but was less comfortable than poly-cotton and cotton in warm weather when it didn't rain (no test equipment, but lots of experience and curiosity). I even did a (fairly unscientific but what I could manage) test cross country skiing in around -15C. Same loop of 5 miles three times with polyester-cotton blend, cotton and GoreTex and to my surprise there where clearly less condensation on the inside of the GoreTex jacket.
I don't disagree with your findings at all - it's fairly basic knowledge that with close to 100% humidity outside a fabric wont "breathe" much (good illustration with the parking lot BTW, hadn't seen that before). The question is however, what did GoreTex replace and what are the options now? Other waterproof-breathable materials struggle with exactly the same limitations when it comes to high humidity outside the jacket. I've tried Entrant, Triple Point, many versions of GoreTex, eVent, Dermizax and a couple of other with unspecified waterproof breathable technologies and in heavy rain they always struggle and I'll get condensation. But they also replace two other jackets that weigh more and I have to switch between when it's not steady all da rain.
I live in an area with fairly unstable weather but even here it's much more common with a mix of showers, light rain/mist, sunny, windy etc. than all day heavy rain and waterproof-breathable tech keep me fairly comfortable in all the conditions. I haven't found anything that works better, maybe except for an umbrella but umbrellas have some serious problems with wind and overgrown trails.
Videos like this are so important and make TH-cam not only a place to consume but rather to learn! Thanks 🙏🏻
Good video and analysis, BUT… 1) the big pit zips in my Montbell and Patagonia are great, and i regularly air out by fully unzipping and lifting up the jacket. It creates a fast cooling effect which is also reduces sweat. 2) when it gets hot, or i know it will be even just warm and rainy, i use a very thin alpaca or merino layer underneath and then the rain jacket. The jacket provides warmth, and can get muggy, so i do the regular airing out. 3) a big source of heat, sweat and lack of ventilation (air) is on the back, so i use a Vaucluse air ventilator with my frameless, hip-beltless pack. This extra air on the back helps with outside and inside moisture - less sopping wet back sticking to the pack, and less heat from the pack up against the back, which also means less sweat b/c less heat. You always seem loaded out with a huge pack, huge hip belt, and complete contact all over your body. I even stopped using a fanny pack and love the sense of freedom and air all around me. Improved visibility too when i look around on the ground. All this extra body exposure to air and fewer materials contacting me allow for extra ventilation, easy to open/close zip my jacket, i can undo the chest straps for a few minutes of super-ventilation as well. One thing to consider is the pros/cons of a goretex hiking PONCHO. Of course, it would have to have straps for wind, but the whole idea of the ancient poncho technology is that it allows for flexibility in ventilation.
As for the click-baity title of the video - perhaps phrase the title as a question. “Is Gore-Tex a scam?” And provide your facts, and let viewer decide. It’s a serious accusation to accuse anybody of perpetrating a scam. I know you just want clicks, but you can get the clicks without the formal accusation. If a specific manufacturer makes a specific claim that you think is, at best, dubious, then let’s see that specific statement and why you think it’s dubious or false. But no point in risking yourself from defamation to even go there, and you don’t have to. You provided a solid analysis that speaks for itself.
Great video. Big effort and well explained.
So glad you put out this video. One of my biggest disappointments in the outdoor industry is “D”WR, which is never durable and is only water resistant for a short rainstorm. Water vapor cannot transport through a layer of water!! Once the face fabric wets out, due to poor DWR, as you said the fabric is not “breathable” (no water vapor transmission).
I did buy a Columbia OutDry jacket once, but hated it. With the “face” fabric on the inside, that is what absorbed all my sweat moisture and felt like I had a wet canvas jacket on. It was the most uncomfortable rain jacket I’ve used in decades.
The only solution currently is good ventilation.
Fabrics with a high MVTR are helpful for after it stops raining, once the face fabric dries they let your sweat-soaked clothes dry better. But that’s only applicable if it’s cold enough you need to keep wearing the rain jacket when it stops raining!
This is golden. Thank you. I can better manage my expectations when buying these products. For now, the plastic raincoat/trash bag is best. And least costly.
You explained that very well.
I bought a non-breathable rain jacket from Lightheart Gear last year when my breathable jacket started wetting out. There’s no DWR to repair, and it cost about 1/3 what breathable jackets cost. It should be waterproof for the life of the jacket.
The only downside is it feels more clammy because there’s no soft liner fabric to absorb small amounts of sweat, like you get with a multi-layer jacket. Not a big difference if you’re exerting yourself, but I notice sweat much quicker if I’m doing light exercise, like walking the dog.
For that reason, I will still keep a breathable jacket for daily use and winter activities.
Buy a rubber HH jacket with a liner instead
One thing with the PTFE toxicity: Short perfluorinated chains are troublesome, but the truly long ones (i.e. PTFE coatings on cooking or chemical gear) are so stable (including thermostability), that as long as they don't come into contact with reactive or sharp metal, they are very safe.
And while the membranes are generally made with the "safe enough" molecules, the overcoating is decidedly not.
Thanks so much! I've always had the feeling that my ...tex jackets didn't work as advertised, now I finally know why :)
love this video! I've always had the same experience and felt that gore-tex (and the like) never breathed well, if at all. your experiments did a great job to demonstrate that. I'm enjoying following your channel, thanks!
Absolutely right. Been saying this for year, which is why I went to a poncho years ago. The only time I'll use a breathable jacket is like you mentioned in the video, winter / cold weather...............
The poncho otherwise is a great option because air is constantly moving in and under and all around. You will notice if it's raining, you WILL get wet. There's really no way to avoid it......................
Well - unless you're doing REALLY cold (like mountains or near artic - or job where you need full protection) - poncho still best IMHO. Layer as you want underneath, put on poncho. If you want to trap air, fold it around and put a belt on outside. Plus if sun come out, you don't have to stop to take off, just throw back over your shoulders.
Why using a waterproof GT jacket in winter/cold weather?.. cold enough use a cotton jacket and just brush of the snow (or it falls of by itself)
Here in Ireland it is constantly high humidity for most of the year, with temps usually ranging from -3 to -4 C to 20 to 25 C. I am yet to find a definitive "waterproof" that will keep rain out and allow moisture to escape. However, I am finding some success using a Poncho during summer (sil nylon and plenty of "breathing" holes!) and am trying a Paramo jacket during cooler months. The Paramo is interesting as it doesn't use a membrane and relies on a "pump liner" to force water/vapour from the inside to the outside using your body heat. It also adds a Nikwax (water based) DWR to the outer fabric. Only used for a few weeks so far, but it appears promising for the way I hike and how "hot" I run when hiking.
I’ve just about worn out my Paramo jacket from 5 years of year round use summer and winter in Scotland. Best jacket I’ve ever had. Walking, cycling, hiking. Warm in winter, not too hot in summer. Would definitely buy another one. And it doesn’t make rustling noises like a standard waterproof jacket.
I love your "gear sceptic" style detailed testing videos, well done!
Best explanation I've ever seen... Car park... I tend to use a Paramo thin fleece (when cold) treated with Nikwax under a Paramo windproof thin jacket again treated with Nikwax. Far from 100% waterproof but by far the most comfortable set up I've used. Luckily in the UK when it rains believe it or not it often rains for a short time or maybe a few hours before it stops and gives my system time to start to dry out then it may rain again. I may use an umbrella if it's not too windy as well which is still not a common thing on the hills here. I learnt this from Marco Zamberlan (Italian boots manufacturer) when out in the mini Dolomites with him once many years ago.
Gave up on goretex boots years ago. Oh and pit zips are the bomb!
the military issued me multiple gortex jackets throughout my career. the way they get around the breathing problem is zip down vents on the sides
Which even up in MWTC I kept the pits, legs, and 1/2 the front unzipped most the time. You seemed to stay dryer without it than with it. Sure, knees and ankles soaked if not wearing, but pits, back, chest, legs didn't have that moist chill feeling as soon as you stopped.
You’re a genius! Thanks for taking the time to do a deep dive into this subject.
Thank you for the confirmation of what I've believed for a long time. so many times soaked inside my coats and rain pants, got tired of it. stopped caring about wetness as much as keeping wind and cold out.
What you miss in this video is that, as long as the temperature inside the jacket is higher/warmer than outside the jacket, there is still a vapor pressure differential that should drive vapor from inside the jacket to outside the jacket, even when the outside is wetted out. The problem is that this differential is generally not sufficient to transfer the amount of sweat generated while hiking.
That's a myth. If the outer air temperature is below dewpoint, then the vapor will condense before it makes it through the Goretex. Since liquid water can't pass through, the membrane will wet-out and block the passage of vapor.
Very true ,thats why pit zips dont work in the above conditions ,but they are a bonus slogging up a cold windy mnt ,helps cut that wind and then the zips are nice to reduce some heat inside .
Sounds like the third way it doesn't work, then.
Pit zips do work in such conditions. If it's not enough, you have to unzip/open other areas. Perhaps just not enough at times. Once when I was younger,, I was slogging up to Muir pass in the High Sierra wearing a T-shirt and poncho in light rain/sleet and was pouring sweat while doing so. It was fairly chilly. Still a ways from the pass, I started shivering for a while which then eventually stopped and I felt dead cold inside. At that point, I knew that Hypothermia was approaching. I can't describe it other than to say that I felt cold "inside" and knew that if I didn't do something IMMEDIATELY that something bad was going to happen... I quickly set up a windbreak and fired up my stove to make some hot soup and staved off the big 'H' at that point I think. Could have ended up much worse. I later used the first version of the US military Gore-Tex jacket which had pit-zips and a liner (which I still have) and it worked well enough but was heavy, durable and warm. I eventually switched to the first version of the Marmot Streamline Gore-Tex jacket which was incredibly light, had a mesh liner with pit-zips and worked great. Then they switched to no liner and it worked less great. It seems as if we're regressing at times. Haven't been hiking for quite a while but from the looks of the comments, little has changed...YMMV. 😉
You didn't show the results of the test...
Bogus test with no results. Just a bunch of garbage as per usual from this channel
Thank you for saying it like it is! I have a goretex jacket and it has never once not failed on me. It is better than no rain jacket, but without fail it always wets out after 20-30 minutes.
This is a great video. As a Mountain Rescue volunteer staying sane because you are dry on a callout is a huge part of the psychological aspects of working in challenging conditions and facing everything from lost people to major trauma injuries. There is a lot of money tied up in the supply of outer clothing for rescue teams (in the UK we are primarily volunteers so rely on charity donations to buy new kit).
And yes I’ve been wearing Gortex for years and it’s always been better advertised than capability.
In the army, people made gortex and gortex covers to be the be all end all best piece of gear. My first time downrange on fort Carson and it stormed like crazy.... Commander was like "make sure you've got your gortex cover on your sleeping bag". Sure thing buddy... As an hour later the whole unit woke up soaked in their bags
This is why I go hiking with an umbrella rather than waterproof equipment
That would never work in the windy UK
My arms feel tired just hearing you say that. Lol….no way I’m holding an umbrella for hours
Most people who hike any distance with an umbrella for rain or intense sun rig a way to attach it to their backpack. Ones made specifically for backpacking weigh less than 8 oz. @@redesignedlife777
Your explanation and definition of hydrostatic thermal balance is phenomenal
My man this is a great video. Really appreciate the effort put into it, and I went away from it feeling better informed and knowledgeable - for the longest time I wondered why I still was so wet after heavy rains even tho my gear was top quality goretex and similar.
I had stopped subscribing some time ago because it felt like too many of your recent videos felt like advertising (sorry) but this is honestly top-tier content, and really something I think you're capable of doing uniquely well.
You are a rockstar of information about outdoor gear.
This years award for outdoor gear content creator again goes to MyLifeOutdoors!
I still just use a poncho.
Me too!
You’re absolutely correct! At the end of the first day I wore my new gortex jacket, I discovered my clothes underneath were wet on the shoulders. I thought the jacket was faulty, but testing proved it was waterproof. Very frustrating!
Superb! Excellent recap and extension of your previous explanations. Next level contributions to the hiking and outdoors community.
I think in dry conditions, in the mountains, where wind is very common, Gore-Tex works. Otherwise no athlete would use it. It is not a bias, it just works. Also it does for daily use. I have an Arc'teryx shell, and it keeps me dry when it rains in the city. Yes, you may need to reapply the DWR once in a while, but it is not a big deal. It is a spray.
I don't use the shell often, because for light rain DWR is enough, you do not need Gore-Tex at all, so in 5 years I never had to reapply the DWR yet to my shell. I used the shell under heavy rain and snow, and it kept me warm and dry. That was in winter with multiple layers below, up to -10ºC.
In a rain forrest, there is nothing you can do. The humidity is so high that it is pointless using a rain jacket. It is ok to be soaked when there are 30ºC. But if you get soaked at -20ºC you die. So, it may not be the best product on the market anymore, but Gore-Tex is not a scam, not for winter shell jackets, at least.
It’s a big deal that you’re poisoning the planet with your respraying of PFAS coatings
Not usually a fan of this channel but this video is great and goes beyond the standards of the recent consumerist "hiking" youtube trend, well researched, well presented, this is very professional.
Wonderful video, Steven. Very impressed and appreciate the deep dive on this topic - excellent work!
Been watching for years and am very glad you touched on this subject. I would yap these points to anybody that were unfortunate enough to be around me when I'd think about it
I was in the USAF and we got these back when. I never felt they were all that in the weather of West Germany. Loose fitting/airy clothing when raining, change socks often. In Tennessee, I wear a lightweight rain jacket with a long sleeve loose fitting shirt underneath and maybe a base layer or puffer jacket if is that chilly. Works great.
Great video and thank you. Drives me crazy feeling and being wet inside my Gortex jacket while hiking during humid / rainy days of summer.
I am a Forester and the waterproof stuff we use is pretty much just a Waterproof elastic West, but is layered, a little bit like Scales of a Snake. so any moisture that builds up just drops out at the bottom, and the fabric between the scales is just a loose Mesh, so they are actually relatively 'breathable', even in the heaviest of rains
Back in Scouts in the Pacific Northwest, my typical set-up when hiking in the rain was a pair of quick-dry shorts (regardless of how cold it was, barring snow) plus a bright yellow rubber pull-over rainjacket that did not breathe one whit but also didn't leak a drop of water despite years of use. Layer under the jacket depending on temperature to keep you mostly comfortable while minimizing sweat, and you'll have as good an outcome as spending hundreds on fancy gore-tex outerwear with a fraction of the cost and no need to replace things regularly or waste time with fancy DWR re-applications every month or two.
This video is very insightful, and really clears up a lot of misconceptions. When it's raining, the relative humidity is (or will quickly be) 100% - no evaporation can happen at all, so why do you care about breathability?
Man are you top notch or what cause this was 100% useful and important information….. thank you for the education…… this is why i watch you you definitely go above and beyond with your explanations!!
Good parallel using your parking lot scenario. It clarified the examples for me.
Ahh, thanks for that, it explains why my gortex lined textile motorcycle jacket works so well on my bike (lots of air movement) but is totally useless when I take a bushwalk at the end of the ride! And I take exception to that Gortex ad you showed which implies it's always dry down here in Oz!
Great video. Really nice to see one of the larger outdoor channels talking about this, explaining it objectively and in an easy to understand manner. Props to you for the test set-up and going out of your way to try and recreate realistic conditions for the jackets. I've started using ponchos in all but very windy conditions or if I'm out on the mountains, and the difference in breathability is mind-boggling and I'm much more comfortable (and dry) when hiking. I also recently got an OR Foray which has full length pit zips and these have been pretty effective as well at providing improved breathability in a conventional jacket. I'd love to see you try a Paramo jacket one day. They have a bit of a love/hate relationship here in the UK but approach things very unconventionally, prioritising breathability over waterproofing. Would be great to see how they perform under one of your real-world tests!
3L jackets are just so much more versatile than a straight waterproof shell. I do own both; the waterproof shell is awful if you're sweating, even with pit zips. The 3L jacket can be comfortably used for wind protection and extra warmth without drenching you in your own sweat. It's very nice to throw one jacket in the pack and know it'll work for whatever weather you encounter
Fantastic presentation!! Thank you so much for fighting the BS about these products, call it marketing or gaslighting its still BS. The parking lot analogy was excellent and your demonstrations were great evidence debunking the companies claims. Thanks again!
Yep! As a bicycle commuter in an asscrack-humid city on the Third Coast, I found that I was just as sweat-wet inside the goretex as I was rain-wet outside it. And nowhere near as fresh!! In my climate, I really only need to worry about the rain during a few colder months of the year when it challenges my core temperature (as measured by how much dexterity I maintain in my fingers); in those cases, I pull on neoprene and work with the water!
Loving the deep dives you do Steve, much better than the same old videos everyone else is putting out
I agree with you! I had a gortex rain jacket and discovered that scam right off the bat when I first wore it.
I’ve been saying this for years!! Glad someone finally made a video about it.
I love discovering across content creators like this chap! He would have made an incredible science teacher! Very thourough and research and the experimental set up is simply genius!
Super informative, thanks.
I'm simply using an umbrella. Not always the perfect solution, especially not really useful when it is over breezy, but most of the times it protects me quite well against rain. And even more, it helps me against the sun as well (I own one with a 50+ UV rating).
Very true! The type of confirmation bias discussed here (when a person can’t see any fault with an expensive purchase because it means they made an expensive mistake) even has it’s own name: post-purchase rationalization. And I have definitely had expensive raingear do this exact thing to me regularly.
There is, however, inexpensive goretex fabric and clothing available at like 1/5 of the price of Arcteryx, and I actually do like the possibility of being able to use the same jacket/pants for skiing in winter (snowy, windy and sweaty conditions) and rainy hikes in the woods. Nobody wants to ski uphill in a rubberized rain jacket.
I've watched many of your videos and this is probably the best, keep up the good work.
When I did my NOLS semester in the 90s, they had us wear a wind layer and an appropriate thermal layer for high activity (backpacking in the Talketnas). From their experience, they knew you would be just as wet underneath the GoreTex as you would getting wet from rain. Even now, I won't wear GoreTex during high activity unless it's winter.