Great video, thanks! Have you ever tested any alternative technologies to membranes such as Paramo Nikwax Analogy gear? I'd be interested to hear what you thought about how those compare to Goretex and other membranes.
..... Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell Come to Jesus Christ today Jesus Christ is only way to heaven Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today Romans 6.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Mark 1.15 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Jesus
Just curious, what do you do for your career? I have a daughter going to college, a 16-year-old, and a 10 year old. We live in Mississippi and I’m trying to open their minds to different types of jobs. Great video can’t wait to share it to them !!!
was going to buy some oilskins but i was put off by the fact of having to oil them periodically. i thought 20th century technology meant i could be lazy
To be honest, I worked at an hiking/trekking shop and I knew this for years. Since then I became a huge fan of ponchos. Especially expeds‘ pack poncho. Ponchos allow more airflow underneath and do not even try to lie about „breathability“ and protect you AND your gear from becoming wet. Also it is easy to put it on/off during light rain or when the rain pauses for a few minutes: The poncho can be attached to the Backpack so you just throw it over your head and it hangs there behind you and when rain sets in again you just reach back, grab the thing and pull it over your head again. And in case of very heavy rain or wind you can combine a poncho with a pair of rainchaps to protect your legs, but they leave your crotch open which helps ventilation by a higher amount! That said: Great Video! Thank you for that much time and effort! It’s always a pleasure to watch your videos!
Experienced and did the same ... since 1986. Since then I wear a rain jacket in the city and a poncho when backpacking. Also, I still use a backpack with an external frame (heavier, but better airflow and better load bearing when needed). To clarify, I still have 2 Goretex rain jackets. And I also own 3 backpacks with internal frames.
After spending $1000 on a “gore-Tex pro” jacket, I thought it was the best jacket going for years. But after multiple rainy days on trail I noticed I was soaked on the inside. It was a hard pill to swallow realizing that the jacket was just as useful as a $30 frog toggs. Confirmation bias is totally real and it hits close to home
Though I'll put money on which one lasts the longest...at least your GTX Pro should last, personally I try and avoid as I don't like being a boil-in-a-bag.
Then I’ll be taking your money😂 To give you a timeline, I bought the original jacket late 2020. Summer 2022 some of the seams started to delaminate. Arc’Terxy warranted the jacket for me and I bought the same model again. Now the new one has recently started to wet through in the upper shoulder blades area.. as Steven pointed out, these jackets are made out of “forever chemicals”. I actually posted a video talking about this situation yesterday
@@dakotacoburn Ooooh, didn't know it was that bad. I wouldn't even buy Arc’Teryx on sale... I'm sticking with my Paramo gear, last for decades even though they're more work reproofing.
@@LoremIpsum1970 Yea and every time you do the reproofing process you are getting and very very large step closer to the seam tape coming off, your suffering from the very type of confirmation bias this video talked about bud.
@@-TheRealChris Do some research! This fabric lasts over 20 years of maintenance (not for the PCT or AT, and weighs more than GTX), waterproofing is waterbased, it's repairable, you can sew it yourself (they will also repair for a fee), there's no membrane, it's not laminated, there's no taped seams, etc... It was invented by the same person who invented nik-wax in the UK. Used by mountain rescue in the UK. An alternative would be ven-tile, another UK fabric.
100%. I've worked professionally in the ski industry as a Lift Operator for years, and we have to spend hours standing in blizzard conditions, rainy conditions, and everything in-between while working hard shoveling snow and doing other physically demanding work. And I can tell you as someone who professionally is paid to be outdoors and do sweaty work: the best waterproof jackets you can get, are just the fully rubberized heavy duty rain gear. And if you want to stay warm, just have a puffer underneath. These crazy goretex systems are just completely unnecessary and most of them get you wet anyway. Just wear an oversized rubberized rain jacket so it allows air to move underneath it and you'll stay much dryer.
Agree 100%. I work outdoors in southeast Alaska, nobody wears the high tech fabrics. Grundens, Helly Hansen, and even Carhartt all make pvc rain gear that keeps you dry, and isn't terribly heavy.
I work as a full-time glacier and alpine guide in Iceland and have owned many Goretex layers. I have noticed that a nice new Goretex jacket works well during a chilly alpine ascent (due to both the humidity difference and fresh DWR coating). This is why I only use Goretex for high-alpine trips or ice-cap related activities. When it comes to daily glacier guiding in the rain (a high-humidity environment), Goretex is worthless. What I started doing is just buying cheap rubber jackets/pants that both last longer and are exponentially cheaper. Great video!!
It was during my time working in Iceland that I figured that I didn't like GoreTex because of how wet I would be on rainy days. Bought a 66° fishing poncho and I love nothing more than that
Agree, but the problem for me is that rubber clothing is very bad when the sun comes after rain and the only thing you need a jacket for is as a windshield. Under those conditions goretex is far more comfortable than rubber... And if you are outdoors fro some weeks at a time only rubber outer-clothing is not comfortable
The price is very over-priced, for that gore-tex stuff. I remember, i've bought with 18 a gore-tex bike jacket, and it was like unheard 400 DM before, early 90s...got soaked when doing MTB'ing like a cheap 20 bucks jacket into rain...
@@DudeWatIsThis 'exponentially' doesn't imply a time component...its HIGHLY likely that he means the ratio of cost to performance is exponentially better. This is a mathematically correct claim to make (even if not literally true). Time is not related to the definition of an exponential relationship.
As a textile designer of 30 years, I really loved the video. The other part of the story here, other than the membrane and fluorocarbon, is the base fabric design and membrane adhesive formulation and garment construction. In the case of the garments or brands you mention, these are all flat filament CF fibers, likely polyester or nylon 6. Air textured yarns, spun yarns or fiber blends will have an impact. The weave design will have an impact. For example, a plain weave vs a basket weave, or the thread count ... 45 threads per inch vs say 55 of the same yarn count in warp or fill. Microporous films may have a lot of polymer melt adhesive for durability, which may negatively affect breathability, or a little bit of adhesive which give a better feel. There are also breathable coatings, in the microporous option or hydrophilic option. And of course, apart from these factors, there is garment design. A well known brand and high price tag, doesn't necessarily mean the best product. It should also be noted that C8 fluorochemistry is being phased out in favor of C6 for environmental reasons.
I grew up scouting in the pacific northwest and our leaders use to say things like "No such thing as waterproof and breathable" or "Prepare to be wet and warm, because you can't always be dry". It was great watching this video that explains the science behind that old northwest wisdom.
The wet and warm principle works really well here in the UK where we have two systems that have no hydrostatic head or membrane but use the warmth to drive moisture away.
Reminds me of a quote from a old British mountaineer " the only truly water proof breathable item I'm aware of is an umbrella" dude carried an umbrella with him on his expeditions to lol
WA native here, been camping and hiking and x-country skiing my whole life. The best, most life-saving advice: wear layers, wear wool, bring extra socks in a waterproof bag, don't count on "killer cotton" to help you if it gets wet.
@flippy66 Right there with you. I always hike with an umbrella if it's wet outside. People look at me like I'm weird but at least I'm dry. Goretex and everything else is only so waterproof. I also found the Z-packs ponchos are great as well.
The amount of time, energy and research you put into your videos is astounding. Keep up the great work! I love seeing the testing contraptions you come up with.
Thanks so much for this! I’ve always thought gore tex was overhyped but that there were no alternatives. Also good to know it ultimately stems from DuPont tech, a company that has had several goes at extinguishing all life on the planet and very nearly succeeding.
In NZ, the places we hunt often average 200+ rain days per year, and it looks like the jungle from Jurassic Park (it literally is). We wear wool. It stays warm when wet, and we don't even pretend to attempt to stay dry. Rain jackets are for cutting the wind basically. It's also quiet when you brush again stuff unlike all the synthetics. If its a really really bad storm, an old school fisherman's yellow PVC rain jacket outperforms anything.
Similarly, at the opposite end of the spectrum - in the hot parts of Australia, there's nothing better than...linen. You know all those fancy-schmancy hi-tech sports fabrics that promise to keep you cool, wick moisture, and dry fast? Yeah. Linen does that already. Cold to the touch, hollow fibres. And those synthetics? They really only work when there's a breeze blowing on them. Otherwise, it just feels like wearing a garbage bag.
Yes agreed. I basically only wear wool and outer being with a lanolin coating. For sedentary torrential rain any waterproof cover doesn't need to be breathable. In Australia we have the bluey jacket, the UK has the donkey, the US mackinaw, French I forget the name. NZ has heaps like swandry, feathertop. All basically the same. Dense wool weave with lanolin. Bush shirts more a light flannel weave. Went out of favour with goretex and the like. some trades in Melbourne and tassie still use them. If going without waterproof jacket in heavy rain arguably high wicking 100% synthetic better because absorbs very little water but I still prefer the benefits of wool and adjust my behaviour to compensate
@@hoilst265Yes true but for hot dry climates the physical attributes are completely different. You want loose fitting clothing that is a loose weave/knit to allow air flow and encourage the body to Thermo regulate with sweat. As for materials yes agreed linen/viscose/lyocell/cotton and even wool. Yes completely agree wearing synthetics in the heat are completely flawed logic. The only synthetic I'd possibly recommend would be polartec delta but have never tried. This tries to mitigate the discomfort of cotton shirts wetting out from sweat by creating mesh grid of synthetic next to viscose. One section stays dry and the other absorbs moisture. The concept being you don't get completely soaked from sweat
This video explains exactly my experience of 20+ years of hiking in the Scottish Highlands, one of the most humid places on Earth. GoreTex (and all those related fabrics) are basically useless. Got myself a light umbrella. Worked perfectly! 100% waterproof and 100% breathable!
I'm a former REI sales specialist in camping and outdoor clothing. I was geared up with all the best equipment and started out on a long Appalachian Trail thru hike and quickly realized that GoreTex and other similar fabrics were indeed useless in the rain soaked conditions on the trail in the humid south. The best thing was to just suck it up and expect to get wet and hope to dry out later on. Open up the vents and pit zips and flush as much air through the jacket as you can. The GoreTex shoes were also useless so again just expect to get wet, live with it and know that you can dry out later on. If you encounter a quick and short shower then you may be protected if the shower doesn't last too long. Often just wearing GoreTex outer wear gets one hot and sweaty and it basically begins raining on the inside.
Yes, it is a bit surprising that lots of people expect to stay perfectly dry in pouring rain, weather doesn't really work like that. I'm more than happy to settle for damp but warm, to be honest.
Use plastic grocery bags in your boots for longer rainfalls. Your feet will sweat but at least you won't have a puddle between your toes. I'm also the weirdo hiking with an umbrella (and poncho). It keeps you dry stomach up 95%. It also lets you take your hood off which gives you so much more presence in the environment around you (hoods are so isolating, hate them). Of course this only works if you can spare the 250g for the umbrella (cheaper the better as it inevitably snags on a branch or gets destroyed by the wind). People think I'm a total newbie but I know they're the real newbies. lol.
“When humidity is high, these jackets don’t seem to breathe at all.” This was my experience with Gore-Tex hiking the West Highland Way in Scotland. I stayed dryer wearing shorts, sandals, and a large cheap poncho than my fellows hikers in full length head to toe waterproof gear. (Note: Poncho goes OVER the backpack)
I think it was priests in Amazon who were on missionary trips and nearly killed them with pneumonia. Guilted them for being naked, so they put on clothes, stayed wet all the time instead of being able to sluff off water, and of course got sick.
@@danthelambboy Military poncho comes with a liner, so standard layering on self, liner inside poncho, and fold around body to secure with belt or rope. Arms are typically down to side so you don't lose that much body heat, esp if already moving. If it's blowing that bad, you should probably stop to take shelter anyway. There are some trade offs to a jacket, but weight, versatility, effectiveness, COST - it's really hard to beat. If you're going into an area where it could turn nasty enough - just bring a cheap set of Togs to boot. You can strip naked in jugle with poncho on to the other temp extreme of zero +/- with clothes, togs, and poncho/liner to act as wind/rain break - for what - less than $100 and 10 lbs of gear?
I'm sorry, but did you expect Gore-Tex to break the laws of thermodynamics and breathe in high humidity? I.e. push water vapour to a more humid environment without needing energy?
... Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Come to Jesus Christ today Jesus Christ is only way to heaven Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Mark 1.15 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Jesus
@@xxxxxxxxxx4879 It is indeed *very* simple physics. Jackets (doesn't matter what type) can't magically push water vapour to a more humid environment without needing energy to do so. Despite marketing departments wanting you to believe otherwise, they can't break the laws of thermodynamics. Worth a 30 second TH-cam short at most. (Not that I should've expected anything more just judging on the clickbait title.)
I own an Outdoor Research Goretex rain jacket and can confirm-- it does a pretty good job keeping you from getting soaked by rain, but it's certainly not dry inside. I always feel clammy underneath especially in the arms. I'm in Iceland (cold maritime climate) and even when I use it as a wind shell, it can feel clammy inside on cold, humid days as well. It works best when you're not exerting yourself (just sitting or walking a bit), or as a wind shell on dryish days, but once you start doing work, it always ends up feeling damp inside if it's at all humid outside.
The best winter jacket I have is old school sheepskin bomber jacket. You can’t beat natural material. It’s breathable, regulates temperature and wicks moisture. It will also almost last a lifetime.
When a daily downpour broke in a Central American jungle, we broke out our Gortex the guide broke out an umbrella. Two hours later we were soaked from the inside out while the guide was wet only from the knees down. Rainwear is just another tool to be used at the right time. Best mitigation though, pit zips! Don’t buy a “waterproof” jacket without them. Great video backed up with facts.
@@adamlea6339 maybe a jungle thing. Umbrellas don’t work well in windy Utah either where I live. Got to use the right tool for the right situation. I prefer light shells with pit zips, no one perfect answer for sure.
Love this video and actually it explains how I’ve felt with my goretex jacket through my years of use. 1. Performance in heavy rain - meh, keeps water out. But yes with sweating or anything condensation sits in the jacket 2. Performance for high winds, alpine conditions surrounded by snow where you want to have breathable but shell like barrier to make sure any melting ice or snow is not getting you wet. I’ve been glad to have it The experience above makes sense now with the video
I'm old enough to remember the pre GoreTex days - at least pre GoreTex where I lived. What I had before where cotton and polyester-cotton blends (like the G1000 used by Fjellraven) treated for waterproofness. These kind of worked - actually really well in misty conditions or with snow well below freezing - but just didn't work well in heavy prolonged rain. I remember biking to school a couple of times in a cotton "waterproof" outdoorsy and almost new jacket and it worked for the 15-20 minutes ride, but after an hour in steady rain it just wet thru. So going hiking with these types of clothes I'd bring a lightweight really waterproof jacket in addition. The other option was to leave the cotton jacket at home and bring only a more heavy-duty rain jacket that certainly would keep the rain out but was unnecessary uncomfortable if the rain let up. Then GoreTex came along, and I bought one of the first jackets available where I lived. And it worked! Not like some miracle fabric that solved every problem, but it was lighter than my cotton jacket and much lighter than an outdoorsy jacket plus a rain jacket. It also kept me at least as dry in rain but was less comfortable than poly-cotton and cotton in warm weather when it didn't rain (no test equipment, but lots of experience and curiosity). I even did a (fairly unscientific but what I could manage) test cross country skiing in around -15C. Same loop of 5 miles three times with polyester-cotton blend, cotton and GoreTex and to my surprise there where clearly less condensation on the inside of the GoreTex jacket. I don't disagree with your findings at all - it's fairly basic knowledge that with close to 100% humidity outside a fabric wont "breathe" much (good illustration with the parking lot BTW, hadn't seen that before). The question is however, what did GoreTex replace and what are the options now? Other waterproof-breathable materials struggle with exactly the same limitations when it comes to high humidity outside the jacket. I've tried Entrant, Triple Point, many versions of GoreTex, eVent, Dermizax and a couple of other with unspecified waterproof breathable technologies and in heavy rain they always struggle and I'll get condensation. But they also replace two other jackets that weigh more and I have to switch between when it's not steady all da rain. I live in an area with fairly unstable weather but even here it's much more common with a mix of showers, light rain/mist, sunny, windy etc. than all day heavy rain and waterproof-breathable tech keep me fairly comfortable in all the conditions. I haven't found anything that works better, maybe except for an umbrella but umbrellas have some serious problems with wind and overgrown trails.
The beauty with all those membrane jackets is that they kind of work under different circumstances. A membrane jacket will protect you from the wind, it might give you a little bit more insulation when it's cold and it will keep the rain off if it's raining. So it's a multi purpose piece of equipment. However you need to know its limitations. This is transporting sweat caused by intense physical activity when it's wet outside - and worse wet and warm.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has ever said that membranes will keep you dry in 100% humidity. There is no scam - membranes are breathable in conditions when you can use other breathable fabrics and waterproof when you need waterproof
@@dmitriitsunenko9055yeah this video is hilarious because it starts with a straw man argument. Nobody expects it to do both at the same time. The point is that it’s waterproof when it’s raining, and breathable when it’s not. It would be quite a jacket if it could enable you to evaporate sweat in 100% humidity!
So what you’re saying is I need to replace the DWR coating on my Gore-Tex jacket. Thanks for the reminder. A bit like someone spending $100k on a Porsche but never getting it serviced, and then one day wondering why it has stopped working.
Except that *every motherfucker* should know you need to service your car, whether it's a $1000 Buy-Here/Pay-Here clunker-junker or $100K Porsche ... but nobody really thinks you need to "service your jacket" ... I myself grew up on Gore-Tex and Columbia specifically was a huge brand in my area, everyone wanted one from 5th-Grade through HS and even the Grown-Ups.... and the idea of having to re-apply a coating to a jacket is just foreign to me, this is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. I live in FL now so I have very little need of a jacket but if I did, I wouldn't be buying one that needed Spray Tuneups.
these jackets are far better suited for higher altitude environments where the air is dry and you are more likely to deal with snow than rain than for a backpacking rain coat. I carry a simple north face rain jacket with pit zips and it works just fine
Working in NZ, outdoors all day in saturated bush, off track deep scrub. You'll never ever be try. You shouldn't even try. Layer up with thermals, create thermal barriers and let the 'waterproof' layer do it's actual job, wind barrier and insulator. Wet and warm is the goal. Dry is staying home.
@@chriswilliams1096Usually it doubles as your wind breaker, and when it does rain it tends to blow over more quickly so the air humidity doesn't get as bad as other places
Below 0 air can hold so little water that your fancy jacket won't work. Thinned high altitude air means even less water air can carry. You're giving bad advices pal
@@fiatlux4058 if that cold air with little capacity for water is warmed by the body heat it still holds as little water as when it was cold, but has the capacity of warm air. So the humidity falls, which results in dry air that can absorb water. It is kind of the same principle a hair dryer uses, the warm air can hold more water then wehen it was cold, ort in that case room temperature, the warmth of the air alos helps to evaporate the water too of course. Also it isnt about zero degrees, the ability to hold water drops with temperature in general. I dont know about mountain climate, so there could be other effects, causing dry air, or there may be no such effects, but from the physics of just warming and cooling air you get the effect of dry air.
This is IMHO the best video you have made yet. In fact, I think anyone who is new to the outdoors, and even many veterans, would benefit from watching this. I'm suspecting that you are proving what they are already experiencing, but you are adding rigor to their anecdotes.
Right? I was so surprised by the change of content and the way it is showed. It's unusual for content creator to change in a better way after some time
Gore-Tex in a jacket works great here in Colorado. It's very dry and when it rains, it doesn't do it for long so it keeps the water out very well. Sometimes you'll get caught in a nasty storm and your jacket will get soaked through but the storm will be over in 30 minutes and then your jacket will be dry 10-20 minutes later. Boots on the other hand is a no go for Gore-Tex. The membrane just can't keep up with the amount of sweat you produce which results in soggy wet feet. Boots with good ventilation and no membrane will stay much dryer, even with the many stream crossings we have to deal with in the High Country.
I’ve known this for years out of experience that goretex and other waterproof breathable fabrics just don’t breathe enough with activity and rain at the same time. But it was sooo good to understand the science behind it. Goretex and other waterproof breathables are a giant marketing machine that have misled the public on the universal claims of waterproof breathable fabrics in all conditions. Thank you soooo much for this video.
This is why I use a 2x oversized Gore Shake Dry cycling jacket, with a wool sweater or liner underneath. (Works just as well for non cycling endeavors). This allows air movement, AND breathability, so long as its not wet AND warm outside. Wet and cold, no problem will breathe easily all day long. Warm and wet, not as great.
Really appreciate this kind of content! Really good companion to the FortNine video that did something similar for motorcycle jackets. As a runner I realized what you concluded in this video and opted for a much cheaper $180 jacket that doesnt use Gore-Tex but has goodish breathability and okay water protection. I just couldn't justify spending multiple hundreds of dollars on a jacket that with exposed membrane (like the Gore R7 Shakedry) that I would almost certainly need to replace in a few years of heavy use because it literally would just not last that long. The exposed membrane literally wears down with things like a running pack on for example.
Thanks. I cane across the FortNine video while researching this topic. It’s a great well made video and helped me tremendously while trying to test these jackets.
Thanks Dr Science! You have scientifically proven what my own experience has been telling me for years. Every time I have been caught in substantial rain it became clear, relatively quickly, that my jacket was no longer adequately breathing and I was getting wet from my own perspiration. Now I know why, and that I no longer have to chase the illusion of a “better” rain jacket. Very helpful - thanks!
Good video and analysis, BUT… 1) the big pit zips in my Montbell and Patagonia are great, and i regularly air out by fully unzipping and lifting up the jacket. It creates a fast cooling effect which is also reduces sweat. 2) when it gets hot, or i know it will be even just warm and rainy, i use a very thin alpaca or merino layer underneath and then the rain jacket. The jacket provides warmth, and can get muggy, so i do the regular airing out. 3) a big source of heat, sweat and lack of ventilation (air) is on the back, so i use a Vaucluse air ventilator with my frameless, hip-beltless pack. This extra air on the back helps with outside and inside moisture - less sopping wet back sticking to the pack, and less heat from the pack up against the back, which also means less sweat b/c less heat. You always seem loaded out with a huge pack, huge hip belt, and complete contact all over your body. I even stopped using a fanny pack and love the sense of freedom and air all around me. Improved visibility too when i look around on the ground. All this extra body exposure to air and fewer materials contacting me allow for extra ventilation, easy to open/close zip my jacket, i can undo the chest straps for a few minutes of super-ventilation as well. One thing to consider is the pros/cons of a goretex hiking PONCHO. Of course, it would have to have straps for wind, but the whole idea of the ancient poncho technology is that it allows for flexibility in ventilation. As for the click-baity title of the video - perhaps phrase the title as a question. “Is Gore-Tex a scam?” And provide your facts, and let viewer decide. It’s a serious accusation to accuse anybody of perpetrating a scam. I know you just want clicks, but you can get the clicks without the formal accusation. If a specific manufacturer makes a specific claim that you think is, at best, dubious, then let’s see that specific statement and why you think it’s dubious or false. But no point in risking yourself from defamation to even go there, and you don’t have to. You provided a solid analysis that speaks for itself.
I think maybe you are ignoring the fact that a breathable, waterproof coat is still useful, even if it can't do both at the same time. It lets you have a jacket that keeps you dry in the rain, even if your sweat still gets trapped, which is better than just getting soaked by the rain, while also having a breathable jacket when it isn't raining.
Excellent. Everyone who goes outside should watch this video. Especially if its raining or humid out. Fabric is magic in dry-air mountains...useless everywhere else.
Edit; firstly I’m a fan of the channel. Secondly, GoreTex can be both breathable and waterproof simultaneously, assuming ‘correct’ conditions for the fabric to work efficiently . Gortex works, but it has its limitations. Your test created a humidity equilibrium either side of the fabric; of course this leads to no further evaporation. As you say, in cold/low relative/absolute humidity environments goretex will perform just fine. Raining isn’t a guarantee of high humidity as liquid water and water vapour are two different things, and the DWR is there to mitigate surface liquid from wetting out the fabric. If rain persists, humidity will rise due to the liquid rain beginning to evaporate; raising absolute and relative humidity. However rain is not an indication of inherent high humidity to the point that makes GoreTex immediately ineffective. In cold mountain environments with high winds, driving snow and low absolute humidity (absolute and relative humidity are two different metrics. Ref psychrometric chart for further info) with the user exerting a moderate effort (likely the largest use case scenario for GoreTex) it’ll work just fine.
I totally second this opinion, which I shared in a similar comment. For alpinists Gore-Tex works well. I add that in a rain forrest you'll get soaked with ANY shell, no matter what is the material, so better not to use a rain jacket at all if you plan a trip in Borneo.
As stated, "it can be breathable and waterproof," which is the main selling point of this whole gore-tex thing. However, it's not breathable and waterproof at the same time, what's clearly proved. That's ok..., but the companies should stop with this bullshit and start being honest while advertising their products as opposed to trap people to sell their shit at a ridiculously high price.
Plus you can always play with the air flow. The other day I was hiking in a chill mountain, it was raining lightly but constant. I sweat a lot, and at some time I started to feel cold, so I put on the rain jacket. When I felt hot again, I opened the zippers, this way my body heat kept me dry from the rain coming in the front, and my back was dry thanks to the jacket. The moment I got to the top of the mountain, the air was strong and still raining, closed the jacket completely, the humidity inside evaporated while I set up my tent, and I was feeling fine except for my fingers that froze. Would a plastic bag or umbrella allowed that? Definitely not. What about a cheap jacket? I don't think my sweat would had evaporated so easily. What about a really expensive one? Probably not needed as well. The same goes for the rest of the equipment, that is the reason we don trek in jeans and cotton shirts. We need to be breathable.
Your video points out exactly what I learned from guides in Hawaii. I would ask them about the clothing they wear and the most experienced would tell me to forget about the claims of how breathable a fabric is, get pants and jackets with big zipper vents because air circulation is the cat's meow. The more you are moving, the more you sweat, but also the more you are forcing fresh air through the vents. Another huge difference was switching to a mesh ventilated backpack.
In warmer weather, I love nylon. It's more expensive than polyester but it's more durable, dries quicker, and is much better than any other synthetic material at avoiding stink.
Not usually a fan of this channel but this video is great and goes beyond the standards of the recent consumerist "hiking" youtube trend, well researched, well presented, this is very professional.
we use gore-tex in our military gear but primarily for cold weather use, to not overly sweat in wintertime to get wet on the inside. It works well there
I have personally experienced this with numerous gortex products. It doesn’t mean they are useless, they just are not useful as advertised. I do get good results from my boots that have goretex. I think the difference is my feet pump air as I walk and the fabric is a lot thicker allowing more air movement between the wet outer layer and the humid inner area.
In my opinion it’s somewhat not a scam. If it’s dry outside you have a nice breathable jacket. If it than starts to rain, you don’t need to switch to a raincoat. It’s like 2 separate jackets in one. Just don’t expect it to be both at the same time
My Columbia Omni-Tech rain jacket is like that. Nice windbreaker type layer when dry but works great in the rain also. Probably had it for 10 years and still hasn’t failed me
I was about to say this, for hiking i'd say goretex or similar materials are a "scam" just bring a decent poncho. But for everyday use like me living in the netherlands biking everywhere and not having to swap to a rainjacket when it rains (which is all of the time), it's ideal for everyday use.
The video is well made and largely accurate…however there is nothing new here…it’s basic science yes but it’s been acknowledged for years that Goretex works best in cold dry conditions…this is no great revelation. It’s not a scam as it has never really claimed otherwise. The issue is becoming more pertinent now thanks to more eco friendly water based DWRs which are not as effective at shedding water droplets. Entertaining stuff but not telling us anything that isn’t widely known.
it's DEFINITELY not a scam, he is exaggerating like crazy and being very one sided. Wateproof jackets are definitely very helpful in a decent amount of situations.
Thank you!!! You managed to adequately cover and explain something technical, without getting too technical and with so many numerical details that I lose interest. And you did it in 8 minutes. Keep up the good work!
One thing with the PTFE toxicity: Short perfluorinated chains are troublesome, but the truly long ones (i.e. PTFE coatings on cooking or chemical gear) are so stable (including thermostability), that as long as they don't come into contact with reactive or sharp metal, they are very safe. And while the membranes are generally made with the "safe enough" molecules, the overcoating is decidedly not.
Like many outdoor enthusiasts I jumped in Goretex as soon as it became available in the 1970s, and upgraded through each new generation. It never worked as advertised as soon as the DWR deteriorated or in high humidity conditions. Finally I realized the flaw in the technology. ..just the problems that you identified. The only thing I have found that really works…to the extent that anything can. GOOD JOB exposing the scam!
I’m in industrial commercial heating air refrigeration mechanic. I’m out in it , from -50° F to to 140°F. ( sun +air temp & heat coming off equipment in the summer and working in freezers are -50° with fans blowing on you ) . I’m out in the rain the snow the ice as a part of my job and sometimes for long hours. I have pulled 72 hours straight no sleep . The best rain gear I have found is a combination of a good old-fashioned army poncho with a set of rain gators (to keep everything from your knees down to your waterproof boots dry) . All you have to do is every so often when the heat and humidity buildup underneath, the poncho is just flap it to vent it. Gortex and other high-tech fabrics suck in those environments and believe me I’ve tried everything. Lots of guys love Carhartt in the winter. yet if you work beyond 12 hours the humidity from your body wipes out the insulation value and you get cold. This is where polypropylene or wool as a base layer ( I like prefer wool for safety reasons it won’t melt your skin if something goes horribly wrong) fabrics a wool insulation layer and gortex really shine particularly in high cold wind and snow .
It's one hell of a trick to pull to convince people that you can be (completely) dry outdoors when it's raining. I mean, you can for a while, but not long term. Like in the video - water is falling from the sky. You can cover against it with an umbrella, with GTX, with a rubber suit, whatever but eventually you will get damp, either from the moisture in the air or from your own body.
Just going to share an experience that may be helpful to others. Hiking some years ago in N.H. in November. Some snow on the ground, snow in trees-melting and dripping, exceptionally wet. Temps 33-34F. After maybe 3 hours, we arrive at the shelter soaked to the bone and while fine hiking, begin to chill quickly once stopped (as expected). Instead of changing into some dryer clothing, realizing that the wet clothes won't dry well at all, I decided to just walk (w/o pack) at a speed that generated heat but not enough to sweat while opening my jacket zipper and vents accordingly. After about 20 minutes from the shelter I felt the idea was working and turned around to head back. Back at the shelter after about a forty minute leisurely walk, I was bone dry! We were higher now in elevation so trees were much shorter (less dripping) than 'in the forest.' Even the outer wear was dry (breezier up high). Probably (as I remember it), only my leather hiking boots were still somewhat wet. It was great learning experience in managing wet conditions.
The problem is people thinking they need a gore Tex jacket for hiking. Its purpose is for high altitude mountaineering where air is way dryer and the jacket works best in those conditions. It will never be wet and breathable at the same time, but it does allow some breathability over cheap rain jackets.
Everyday jackets use goretex, trail shoes use goretex, headgear uses goretex. It may be more suited for high altitude use but it is definitely made for all environments
All I can tell you is that the Goretex ECWCS Parka I wore in Alaska in the Army in the late 80's was thin, lightweight, and utilitarian and kept me super warm and dry. It was a huge improvement over the fluffy layers of the old parka we were issued. If that Goretex was a scam, sign me up for the scam. I rarely needed to wear the fleece layer underneath and usually wore only my usual summer Army uniform underneath.
love it I worked in the garment industry for 15 years, doing design and fabric testing, i have been telling people for years to stop with this non-sens waterproof breathability scam... there is no such things as breathable to start with, a fabric does not breathe it let moisture out or absorb it more or less depending on the construction and the fiber used.
As a scout in the PNW, I learned that rain gear fails pretty quickly in a downpour. But if you’re relatively warm, it’s not so bad and you’ll get over it.
@@RaveyDavey Sometimes no amount of waterproofing can block every point of seepage... & waterproofing does always wear off eventually... Point being, that being dry isn't the be-all-end-all goal; temperature control is the more vital priority.
Kudos on, yet another, rock star video! Seriously, this is far more effort, with real-world application, than any of my engineering professors every put forth in their teaching experiments.
Another point that i, for some reason, rarely hear in the WPB fabric debate is that sweat isn’t just water. It has a fairly high concentration of minerals, which also make it harder for the water to evaporate. And when after extensive use these minerals pile up on the inside of the goretex membrane, they can actually pull the water in through the goretex. Which is especially a problem with goretex shoes.
Gore Tex actually test and consider This in developpement now a days. They even differanciate betwen normal swear and fear sweat, because it has a different ph.
I'll admit, I paid over $300 for a Goretex jacket years ago, but never realized I was scammed. I thought it was simply "worn out" when it left me just as wet inside as the exterior rain outside. The good news is, I was thinking of replacing it, now I know better! Super interesting video. Thanks for taking the time to make it and posting it.
So this is a surprise to anyone? I've used them since the 70s, and they never worked perfect, but they were noticeably better than the hard-coated urethane jackets we used before. When you're backpacking, you only want one wind/rain shell. Sitting around in a rubber jacket to keep the wind off sucked, so the so-called waterproof breathable jackets were way better for that application. A few of my friends had expensive ventile parkas which might have been the best compromise, but like today, they were very expensive.
I really appreciate you trying to objectively science the heck out of consumer goods for a more educated customer. Tests we may never have thought of, found, or too lazy to do that you're taking to their natural conclusions. Thanks for doing the hard work bud and all of the content you work on!
one thing to also note when people say "my gore-tex never let me down". The current gore-tex membrane arent as resilient anymore as the old ones, because environmental regulation doesnt let them use the longest polymers anymore
Small correction: The membrane is the same ePTFE that Gore-Tex has always used. What has changed is that DWR coating on the outer layer of the jacket. Gore-Tex jacket makers used to use C8 florocarbons as the DWR, then switched to C6 when C8 was banned, and now some jacket makers will use other DWR. The point is, the membrane is fine, the problem was and is the DWR treatment on the outer fabric.
Yes!! I came to this conclusion after multiple attempts to re-waterproof my trusty rain jacket. Each time it seemed just as wet on the inside. After initially being confused I found that it simply was trapping everything inside and no matter what I did, I would become wet after less than a couple hours in the rain. This is not good news when out backpacking! The nighttime temperatures where I roam never make it above the 40s (F). Great video!!
Where I find that goretex works is in cold weather paddling gear. You need the waterproof-ness when in the water. You're going to sweat while paddling. The breathing happens when you get out of the water - I'm frequently wet inside the garment while paddling (sweat) but am dry but the time in have my boat loaded. I have adopted ponchos for when I'm hiking - very well ventilated. I use a belt sometimes to keep them from flapping.
If you look through the different membranes they make you'll find that they already have this fabric dialled, it's called gore shakedry and has been implemented in mainly road biking and trail running attire. Due to it essentially being a reversed 2L membrane it shed water off immediately and had a waxy finish, it worked exceptionally well in rainy conditions but due to the fragility of the outer fabric it meant that the membrane would break down under heavy loads. It was designed for little to no need for packs (road cycling, running and trail running) and I can say that with a heavy pack my jacket lasted under a year before there were major leaks in the shoulder and hip areas of the jacket, this too applies to any waterproof and breathable jackets with super light membrane qualities as they're mainly designed to be used sparingly and infrequently in hot climates or in extremely high output pursuits where large packs are not involved
Hi Steven, great video. I've found that Goretex works excellently as a ski jacket outer shell. I think skiing is an ideal environment for it. It's dry and cold outside and you're only producing a small amount of vapour inside. Plus, the airflow is quite high as you're moving fast. I tend to buy used Goretex items and reproof them. The older items were built to a much higher standard and I prefer the style of original Latok or Berghaus. They were very well designed. One of my biggest bugbears is laminated pockets etc which detach too easily. Also, my one key feature for an outdoor jacket that tells me it's been designed by someone who knows: Pocket zips must close downwards!
I found out in the 90’s when I was a long distance runner that Gortex didn't breathe very well. Since then I've used Gortex drysuits when I've been whitewater kayaking and even when I've come out of my boat & fully in the water they've kept me dry but if the weather is warm then sweat can definitely build up.
About 30 years ago, I bought a hooded rain jacked, and rain pants. Both were Goretex garments. They were water proof for a few years. Then, they were magnetic to water. After several years of various treatments, I discarded them. I now wear a light weight plastic jacket, and pants. As a trail buddy of mine sez: “Rain gear won’t keep you dry. But it can help to keep you warm.” That assessment applies to every piece of rain gear I have ever seen. Period. Courtesy of Half Vast Flying
I'm a delivery driver for Amazon. When it rains, I stay driest when I have the heater and air conditioning running. It really is all about how much capacity the air has for water, and if it's being dehydrated (due the AC), my clothing dries far more quickly than if I just turned on the heater itself. Delivering through several back to back storms in a month taught me that.
Note that even at 100% humidity your clothes will continue to dry out on you when the air around you is colder than your skin as the boundary layer warms up and can absorb more water. In practice I find 100% humidity fine at 20ish degrees C as those translate to roughly 50% at ~33C temperature of your skin.
Thank you for the confirmation of what I've believed for a long time. so many times soaked inside my coats and rain pants, got tired of it. stopped caring about wetness as much as keeping wind and cold out.
I worked in the extreme sportswear industry and we knew that the best that "breathable" fabrics could do under the ideal circumstances was about a 7% improvement. If the outside or inside got wet from precipitation or sweat, it was like a thick plastic sheet. But if you did not have "breathable", few people would buy. They were well trained consumers. Since we had an extreme customer base who knew when things were working and not, we were very early with the zip vents in pits, pockets, pant legs, .... And we had the flap vents also.
I wouldn't say 'trained', more like lied to. The absolute BS by any brand with Gore-Tex, even still today, is amazing. You'd think it was the best thing on the planet. But most people who have used it know it simply doesn't work as intended, and the best you will get is a very waterproof item for a few years. You'll still get soaked inside.
Thank you for an excellent video. Quite a bit of research involved. Hhhhhhhmmmmmm.....from an engineering standpoint there are two requirements for these micro-membranes to work: water has to be in a vapor state; and it has to be under pressure. That is why the fabric works so well in the steam demonstration but doesn't perform with garments. With the steam setup, water is both fully vapor and is at a high enough pressure to force it's way through the fabric. In clothing, first water is present as liquid sweat as it come out of the skin (mostly liquid water + minor salts + oils, more likely to plug the micro-pores), and then there is not nearly enough pressure inside (almost zero) to force the small amount of vapor out anyway. The only 'breathable' fabrics are things like fishnets with enough open space to actually allow moisture to pass through without having to be under pressure. My preferences are ponchos for rain gear and Wiggy's sleeping bags (silicone treated polyester fibers with a high loft, good moisture control). Still open to experiment.
Thanks for a good video. 2 comments from me: 1) your test setup might benefit from a wick in the water to help it evaporate - perhaps an offcut from a wicking baselayer product? 2) I absolutely agree that goretex and all the competitors don't wick well during rain, but when the rain is frequently on/off all day long (Or all month long in Scotland), then you get the benefit between rain showers. It's still cold and it's still windy, so I'm not taking my wet jacket off to pack it in my bag. I just keep walking/riding and if it's a good breathable fabric I will dry off pretty inside the jacket quite quickly. Even when the outer layer has wetted out, a 30 mph wind will dry that pretty quickly, and a good tight fitting wicking base and breathable intermediate layers really help get the moisture inside to evaporate. I've also spent a summer riding in the southern half of the US. The weather is much more humid, much warmer, and more importantly, it usually rains very heavily for 30 minutes, and then the sun comes out again for the rest of the day. In those conditions, it's easier to just get wet and then dry again, or put on a waterproof when the rain starts and take it off when the rain stops.
Thank you for explaining this so well! I have grown tired of explaining this to others and was too inexperienced to make my own video. This was in part why I converted to using a rain cape for bicycling (better airflow) and when I go camping in our typical PNW winter I ensure wicking-synthetic or wool layers because I know it’s not if I get wet, but if I can stay warm when I do get wet.
What you miss in this video is that, as long as the temperature inside the jacket is higher/warmer than outside the jacket, there is still a vapor pressure differential that should drive vapor from inside the jacket to outside the jacket, even when the outside is wetted out. The problem is that this differential is generally not sufficient to transfer the amount of sweat generated while hiking.
That's a myth. If the outer air temperature is below dewpoint, then the vapor will condense before it makes it through the Goretex. Since liquid water can't pass through, the membrane will wet-out and block the passage of vapor.
Very true ,thats why pit zips dont work in the above conditions ,but they are a bonus slogging up a cold windy mnt ,helps cut that wind and then the zips are nice to reduce some heat inside .
Pit zips do work in such conditions. If it's not enough, you have to unzip/open other areas. Perhaps just not enough at times. Once when I was younger,, I was slogging up to Muir pass in the High Sierra wearing a T-shirt and poncho in light rain/sleet and was pouring sweat while doing so. It was fairly chilly. Still a ways from the pass, I started shivering for a while which then eventually stopped and I felt dead cold inside. At that point, I knew that Hypothermia was approaching. I can't describe it other than to say that I felt cold "inside" and knew that if I didn't do something IMMEDIATELY that something bad was going to happen... I quickly set up a windbreak and fired up my stove to make some hot soup and staved off the big 'H' at that point I think. Could have ended up much worse. I later used the first version of the US military Gore-Tex jacket which had pit-zips and a liner (which I still have) and it worked well enough but was heavy, durable and warm. I eventually switched to the first version of the Marmot Streamline Gore-Tex jacket which was incredibly light, had a mesh liner with pit-zips and worked great. Then they switched to no liner and it worked less great. It seems as if we're regressing at times. Haven't been hiking for quite a while but from the looks of the comments, little has changed...YMMV. 😉
Nice video, as a person that almost spends all my time outdoors I agree with your video, but I will say the best thing for me is fabrics that absorb little water as they dry quicker when the weather lets up, I have fallen in the stream, broke through the ice, and the best fabric for keeping me dry and warm are the ones that don’t absorb water(or very little), gortex or Hh pro are my go to as with high activity I stay dry, 3 days in minus 25 the only thing that was wet and ice was building up (sweat inside)were my Baffin boots while hunting with minimal heat to dry clothing out, could I have built a better shelter yes! My suggesting to anyone is something that has vents to let heat and moisture out when weather lets up, and if the shell does not have that I sew in vents to alleviate the down side of the outer shell, if weather is consistent with precipitation then a rain suit is needed(rubber suit) but extreme hot or cold with the rubber suit and you will be very uncomfortable!
I live in a tropical area. When it rains, nothing except shelter will keep you dry, the best clothing to wear in the rainy season, is quick dry clothing. If it's hot , but still in the wet season, you are going to be wet with sweat anyway , again, quick dry clothing is the answer. I do a fair bit of prospecting, and carry a camel back water bladder and small storage pouches, I carry a small telescopic umbrella, which is very handy, provides shade when needed as well.
Absolutely right. Been saying this for year, which is why I went to a poncho years ago. The only time I'll use a breathable jacket is like you mentioned in the video, winter / cold weather............... The poncho otherwise is a great option because air is constantly moving in and under and all around. You will notice if it's raining, you WILL get wet. There's really no way to avoid it......................
Well - unless you're doing REALLY cold (like mountains or near artic - or job where you need full protection) - poncho still best IMHO. Layer as you want underneath, put on poncho. If you want to trap air, fold it around and put a belt on outside. Plus if sun come out, you don't have to stop to take off, just throw back over your shoulders.
@user-hj8iq1zr8g because the cotton will sooner or later start absorbing the snow as it melts on you and will get wet. Which is a bad thing especially if you are, say, crawling/sitting/kneeling in the snow. GT gives you a hard shell with some breathability that actually does work in cold.
Ahh, thanks for that, it explains why my gortex lined textile motorcycle jacket works so well on my bike (lots of air movement) but is totally useless when I take a bushwalk at the end of the ride! And I take exception to that Gortex ad you showed which implies it's always dry down here in Oz!
I think it even worse that stated: If you have Gortex boots even on a low humidity warm day, the rate you create moisture overwhelms the silly slow rate the gortex can breath. You might as well be wearing plastic bags on your feet if you want to ford a stream. It is completely worthless.
There’s different grades of goretex for footwear. The insulated / performance / extended grades in the Comfort range for footwear are designed for different temp ranges. Even some military desert boots use Extended Comfort, mainly for pathogen protection ie from dirty Afghan open sewers. It works great in hot weather. I’ve worn boots with it in the summer with it no issue, breathes as well as a non goretex boot. Absolutely critical to use the right products with it though, regular polish will make any boot a sauna. The real hassle is drying them in the field if they get wet inside; basically forget about it until you get somewhere dry. If you know your boots will get wet inside you’re better off with a non WP boot and using WP socks instead.
The only good thing about goretex footwear is that the waterproof membrane is inside the boot so the outside can get damaged but your feet still won't get wet when going through puddles.
As someone who lives in beautiful wet England i figured this out years go via experience, lovely to see your video showing some science on the why! From my personal experience I wear a thick plastic poncho for multi day hiking in the rain, Gortex for very cold days, or windy dry days and skiing, and i wear waxed cotton for short walks under 2 hours in the rain as it feels comfy even when a bit damp, and the heaviness of the jacket stops it flapping around in the wind. The waxed cotton/poly blends from a few brands such as fallraven are pretty decent too if you want something a bit lighter.
If this is the same guy then YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND! And that is so, very, very cool! That impresses me. I watched a video you (I think it was you) did years and tears ago on maintaining gortex and gortex-like rain gear. At the time you seemed to be rather in favour of it. Many people commented about you being wrong (some, like me, for the wrong reasons). And here you are, in a world where no one ever chants their minds, changing your. That gets you a sincere thank you from me. Thank you.
I’m always open to changing my mind. When I published the video you are referencing I was under the impression wet out was the problem. As I’ve thought more about it and dealt with it more I’ve realized it’s not just wet out
I think in dry conditions, in the mountains, where wind is very common, Gore-Tex works. Otherwise no athlete would use it. It is not a bias, it just works. Also it does for daily use. I have an Arc'teryx shell, and it keeps me dry when it rains in the city. Yes, you may need to reapply the DWR once in a while, but it is not a big deal. It is a spray. I don't use the shell often, because for light rain DWR is enough, you do not need Gore-Tex at all, so in 5 years I never had to reapply the DWR yet to my shell. I used the shell under heavy rain and snow, and it kept me warm and dry. That was in winter with multiple layers below, up to -10ºC. In a rain forrest, there is nothing you can do. The humidity is so high that it is pointless using a rain jacket. It is ok to be soaked when there are 30ºC. But if you get soaked at -20ºC you die. So, it may not be the best product on the market anymore, but Gore-Tex is not a scam, not for winter shell jackets, at least.
I've been an all-weather hiker and motorcyclist for 40 years, and only bought a Gore-Tex labeled product once. It worked no more efficiently than my standard rain gear, cost me a fortune, and was an overall disappointment. Thanks for doing such an in-depth study on the non-effects of Gore's waterproof/breathable claims. You're doing a great public service by showing that one does not need to spend huge amounts of money on gear to achieve good results. Of course, that leaves more money for other new gear! :) Great channel!!
@@rrandydduke I've been riding with Olympia gear for several years, and their rain liners work extremely well. I carry the lightweight liner to use when hiking as well.
I've known this for years! The capacity of Goretex to transpire moisture depends on a differential in vapour pressure. When it is raining it is 100% humidity outside, and when it is 100% humidity outside there is no vapour pressure differential to drive your sweat out through the membrane. So you get just as sweaty as as you would with much cheaper impermeable waterproofs. Goretex is at its best in cold dry conditions. My solution: a silnylon poncho. It's airy, much lighter, and you sweat a lot less. And a hiking umbrella.
Ive bought gortex everytime ive bought motorbike jackets, its never let me down, its breathable when its sunny and hot and its waterproof when its when, its pretty much exactly what i need for journeys on my motorbike
Pretty much exactly what I came to say. Except for times when I need to keep weight way down, I'd rather go with an oilskin jacket. I'm just as sweaty with it as with Goretex, but I'm drier in the rain.
@@poison_your_mind true but alot of people could just lose on kg of bodyfat so they can carry a oilcloth instead or become farmer strong and then carry
In the army, people made gortex and gortex covers to be the be all end all best piece of gear. My first time downrange on fort Carson and it stormed like crazy.... Commander was like "make sure you've got your gortex cover on your sleeping bag". Sure thing buddy... As an hour later the whole unit woke up soaked in their bags
I wear a goretex jacket and pants for resort skiing. They have been 100% waterproof even during all day wet snow, with falling, sitting on the snow etc, until the seams go or they delaminate. For resort skiing, in a gondola/bubble or a mountain restaurant, you can see the steam coming out through the jacket, and you don't have to keep farting around with the front zip, pit zips or taking the jacket off. Similarly if it stops snowing, the moisture underneath comes out. So waterproof AND breathable is useful if it sometimes stops raining or snowing on you. I get that this is a hiking channel, but think it's worth a mention that the situation is different for skiing. ps all that stuff about needing a humidity gradient between inside and outside applies also if you're wearing just a pair of shorts or a wicking baselayer. Sweat will not evaporate when the humidity is high.
My goretex gear has been going strong since 2006. No maitenance. Used it for reffing soccer wheb in running miles and its cold windy and raining. Can confirm that it doesnt breath as well as i would want to, but i didnt expect it to under my test conditions. I love love love my gear to this day after 18 years of ownership.
I used to have a North Face goretex jacket that I loved. But because I paid attention in high school physics I never expected it to ‘breathe’. If it’s humid enough to rain it’s too humid for perspiration to evaporate. It’s why Biloxi is sweaty hell in the summer even with your shirt off. What I liked about it was it was windproof, and waterproof, so I did not get drenched in rain, nor chilled in a breeze, and it could be stuffed into its own pocket to fit inside a pack.
Thank you. Some real science. There is also a temperature gradient from skin through any insulation to the inner jacket surface. As moist air moves through the insulation to the surface, it cools and loses capacity to hold water vapour. So the water condenses out into droplets which cannot pass through the GoreTex and soaks the interior. I’m always wet wearing the stuff.
One of the main reasons I buy GoreTex gear is general durability. Sure, they might wet out if the DWR coating is not performing well. But man, I’ve never seen an outer material with such phenomenal resistance to chafe/pilling. The idea of a jacket with no outer layer is cool, but I do love the peace of mind knowing that a crash on skis or an errant stick isn’t immediately chafing or puncturing the underlying membrane. I have one Patagonia GoreTex jacket that is over 20 years old and looks like it was made yesterday. I have tried a few other brands who used GoreTex “competitors” (looking at you Trew) and the outer fabric almost never held up as well. DWR your gtx as often as reasonable, prepare for some extra condensate in the rain, and throw in a small cheap and light poncho if you really suspect heavy rain in the forecast. Or just don’t go, because wet tents and packs just suck.
Regardless of whether you want to buy or own a goretex jacket, the information regarding how to remain dry is valuable. You need airflow between you and the waterproof layer, to prevent water saturated air lamination. This then prevents you getting wet from your sweat. So a fully waterproof layer with ventilation is best in any condition. Goretex seems to be good when it's super dry outside. But if it's wet it's not as good, but still usable if it has ventilation. But is goretex worth it considering the environmental impact, likely not.
The moment I heard these things don’t dissolve in nature, I stopped and sold my all plastic clothes. Then turned to life lasting natural garments. Now I’m super happy with my waxed jackets and Ventile jackets.
That and the PFAS cancer chemicals they're made of aren't compatible with excretion, so literally the only way to reduce the amount of them in your blood stream is to give birth to a baby, who in turn takes away some bio mass including some of the PFAS. Possibly the worst gift you could give a new life.
Waxed jackets are the bomb in everyday life. Maybe not hanging out on an icicle. On the other hand, if you want to get into the virtue of materials, cotton is supposed to be as bad as it gets.
Here in Ireland it is constantly high humidity for most of the year, with temps usually ranging from -3 to -4 C to 20 to 25 C. I am yet to find a definitive "waterproof" that will keep rain out and allow moisture to escape. However, I am finding some success using a Poncho during summer (sil nylon and plenty of "breathing" holes!) and am trying a Paramo jacket during cooler months. The Paramo is interesting as it doesn't use a membrane and relies on a "pump liner" to force water/vapour from the inside to the outside using your body heat. It also adds a Nikwax (water based) DWR to the outer fabric. Only used for a few weeks so far, but it appears promising for the way I hike and how "hot" I run when hiking.
I’ve just about worn out my Paramo jacket from 5 years of year round use summer and winter in Scotland. Best jacket I’ve ever had. Walking, cycling, hiking. Warm in winter, not too hot in summer. Would definitely buy another one. And it doesn’t make rustling noises like a standard waterproof jacket.
I live in donegal and have many goretex jackets , find them to be useless here . I wear a brand called hilltrek, single ventile for summer and double ventile for winter . I spend basically my entire life outside . breathable and extremely durable
@@ian-o2c hey Ian, thanks for the reply, I have looked at the ventile fabrics in the past, including hilltrek, it's interesting as a concept also, (although buy once, cry once pricing category) and if paramo doesn't work for me, is a road I may go down myself.
@@austingavins9181 if you order it from republic of Ireland and get it delivered it to Northern Ireland, hilltrek dont charge you the vat . this helps a lot with the price
I cycle commute everyday rain, hail or shine. I gave up years ago trying to stay dry on rainy days. A thin shell jacket to cut the wind chill and a nice warm merino base layer works great. I do get wet when it rains hard but I stay warm and love the feeling of the rain. I do enjoy the warm shower when I arrive though!
I grew up in a hurricane zone and realized this yrs ago. My favorite rain jacket is a waterproof non-goretex one with pit zips from Mountain Hardware. The best part is any phones or other electronics stay dry in the pockets. I even use it sometimes in winter in the Midwest while shoveling snow. I just put it over either a synthetic puffy jacket or fleece.
Well, it is not always raining, is it? Sometimes it is cold and then I sweat. And if I wear Gore-Tex that sweat is actually ventilated out, while the jacket is keeping me warm. .
Most people who hike any distance with an umbrella for rain or intense sun rig a way to attach it to their backpack. Ones made specifically for backpacking weigh less than 8 oz. @@redesignedlife777
Thank you, this explains why I get wet while wearing a Goretex raincoat when it is raining. Not what you want when it's raining, you definitely want to stay dry.
Jackets Shown in this Video:
ArcTeryx Beta LT Shell: geni.us/7MHDw
Columbia OutDry: geni.us/Of76iq
Great video, thanks! Have you ever tested any alternative technologies to membranes such as Paramo Nikwax Analogy gear? I'd be interested to hear what you thought about how those compare to Goretex and other membranes.
Would have been nice to hear your conclusion on the Columbia OutDry. Also a scam?
.....
Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today
Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven
There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today
Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
Romans 6.23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
Just curious, what do you do for your career? I have a daughter going to college, a 16-year-old, and a 10 year old. We live in Mississippi and I’m trying to open their minds to different types of jobs.
Great video can’t wait to share it to them !!!
was going to buy some oilskins but i was put off by the fact of having to oil them periodically. i thought 20th century technology meant i could be lazy
To be honest, I worked at an hiking/trekking shop and I knew this for years. Since then I became a huge fan of ponchos. Especially expeds‘ pack poncho. Ponchos allow more airflow underneath and do not even try to lie about „breathability“ and protect you AND your gear from becoming wet. Also it is easy to put it on/off during light rain or when the rain pauses for a few minutes: The poncho can be attached to the Backpack so you just throw it over your head and it hangs there behind you and when rain sets in again you just reach back, grab the thing and pull it over your head again. And in case of very heavy rain or wind you can combine a poncho with a pair of rainchaps to protect your legs, but they leave your crotch open which helps ventilation by a higher amount!
That said:
Great Video! Thank you for that much time and effort! It’s always a pleasure to watch your videos!
Experienced and did the same ... since 1986.
Since then I wear a rain jacket in the city and a poncho when backpacking.
Also, I still use a backpack with an external frame (heavier, but better airflow and better load bearing when needed).
To clarify, I still have 2 Goretex rain jackets. And I also own 3 backpacks with internal frames.
What Poncho do you recommend?
@@frankhunt5018 the pack poncho by Exped for hiking with a larger backpack.
Exped makes a variety of different ponchos for different needs.
@@frankhunt5018The Gortex Poncho.
@@wimahlers i love a poncho in the city
After spending $1000 on a “gore-Tex pro” jacket, I thought it was the best jacket going for years. But after multiple rainy days on trail I noticed I was soaked on the inside. It was a hard pill to swallow realizing that the jacket was just as useful as a $30 frog toggs. Confirmation bias is totally real and it hits close to home
Though I'll put money on which one lasts the longest...at least your GTX Pro should last, personally I try and avoid as I don't like being a boil-in-a-bag.
Then I’ll be taking your money😂 To give you a timeline, I bought the original jacket late 2020. Summer 2022 some of the seams started to delaminate. Arc’Terxy warranted the jacket for me and I bought the same model again. Now the new one has recently started to wet through in the upper shoulder blades area.. as Steven pointed out, these jackets are made out of “forever chemicals”. I actually posted a video talking about this situation yesterday
@@dakotacoburn Ooooh, didn't know it was that bad. I wouldn't even buy Arc’Teryx on sale... I'm sticking with my Paramo gear, last for decades even though they're more work reproofing.
@@LoremIpsum1970 Yea and every time you do the reproofing process you are getting and very very large step closer to the seam tape coming off, your suffering from the very type of confirmation bias this video talked about bud.
@@-TheRealChris Do some research! This fabric lasts over 20 years of maintenance (not for the PCT or AT, and weighs more than GTX), waterproofing is waterbased, it's repairable, you can sew it yourself (they will also repair for a fee), there's no membrane, it's not laminated, there's no taped seams, etc... It was invented by the same person who invented nik-wax in the UK. Used by mountain rescue in the UK. An alternative would be ven-tile, another UK fabric.
100%. I've worked professionally in the ski industry as a Lift Operator for years, and we have to spend hours standing in blizzard conditions, rainy conditions, and everything in-between while working hard shoveling snow and doing other physically demanding work. And I can tell you as someone who professionally is paid to be outdoors and do sweaty work: the best waterproof jackets you can get, are just the fully rubberized heavy duty rain gear. And if you want to stay warm, just have a puffer underneath. These crazy goretex systems are just completely unnecessary and most of them get you wet anyway. Just wear an oversized rubberized rain jacket so it allows air to move underneath it and you'll stay much dryer.
Here in Northumberland U.K. the guys in £30 pig farming rubber jackets are dry and toasty: me in my £300 goretex, wet and prehypothermic!
Thank you
Agree 100%. I work outdoors in southeast Alaska, nobody wears the high tech fabrics. Grundens, Helly Hansen, and even Carhartt all make pvc rain gear that keeps you dry, and isn't terribly heavy.
Hmmmm I worked at a nursery in all conditions, my goretex fabrics worked great
@@Happy-Hunter89 Yeah we use the Helly Hanson Workwear gear on Mt Hood and it works great. Fantastic stuff.
I work as a full-time glacier and alpine guide in Iceland and have owned many Goretex layers. I have noticed that a nice new Goretex jacket works well during a chilly alpine ascent (due to both the humidity difference and fresh DWR coating). This is why I only use Goretex for high-alpine trips or ice-cap related activities. When it comes to daily glacier guiding in the rain (a high-humidity environment), Goretex is worthless. What I started doing is just buying cheap rubber jackets/pants that both last longer and are exponentially cheaper. Great video!!
It was during my time working in Iceland that I figured that I didn't like GoreTex because of how wet I would be on rainy days. Bought a 66° fishing poncho and I love nothing more than that
How are they exponentially cheaper? Do they get more and more cheap over time?
Agree, but the problem for me is that rubber clothing is very bad when the sun comes after rain and the only thing you need a jacket for is as a windshield. Under those conditions goretex is far more comfortable than rubber... And if you are outdoors fro some weeks at a time only rubber outer-clothing is not comfortable
The price is very over-priced, for that gore-tex stuff. I remember, i've bought with 18 a gore-tex bike jacket, and it was like unheard 400 DM before, early 90s...got soaked when doing MTB'ing like a cheap 20 bucks jacket into rain...
@@DudeWatIsThis 'exponentially' doesn't imply a time component...its HIGHLY likely that he means the ratio of cost to performance is exponentially better. This is a mathematically correct claim to make (even if not literally true). Time is not related to the definition of an exponential relationship.
As a textile designer of 30 years, I really loved the video.
The other part of the story here, other than the membrane and fluorocarbon, is the base fabric design and membrane adhesive formulation and garment construction.
In the case of the garments or brands you mention, these are all flat filament CF fibers, likely polyester or nylon 6.
Air textured yarns, spun yarns or fiber blends will have an impact.
The weave design will have an impact. For example, a plain weave vs a basket weave, or the thread count ... 45 threads per inch vs say 55 of the same yarn count in warp or fill.
Microporous films may have a lot of polymer melt adhesive for durability, which may negatively affect breathability, or a little bit of adhesive which give a better feel.
There are also breathable coatings, in the microporous option or hydrophilic option.
And of course, apart from these factors, there is garment design.
A well known brand and high price tag, doesn't necessarily mean the best product.
It should also be noted that C8 fluorochemistry is being phased out in favor of C6 for environmental reasons.
I grew up scouting in the pacific northwest and our leaders use to say things like "No such thing as waterproof and breathable" or "Prepare to be wet and warm, because you can't always be dry". It was great watching this video that explains the science behind that old northwest wisdom.
The wet and warm principle works really well here in the UK where we have two systems that have no hydrostatic head or membrane but use the warmth to drive moisture away.
Reminds me of a quote from a old British mountaineer " the only truly water proof breathable item I'm aware of is an umbrella" dude carried an umbrella with him on his expeditions to lol
WA native here, been camping and hiking and x-country skiing my whole life. The best, most life-saving advice: wear layers, wear wool, bring extra socks in a waterproof bag, don't count on "killer cotton" to help you if it gets wet.
A garbage bag is water proof, gore tex isent
@@cypriano8763not really with enough water it will eventually find away through also you will sweat like a pig
Thank you. You have convinced me that I shouldn't hike in wet weather or buy expensive fabrics. I'm good with that.
Sunny skies and cheap shit is the way to go 100%
Yep, less of you on the trail in the rain, is better for me. ❤
@flippy66arcteryx, Patagonia and gortex are suppressing umbrella technology
@flippy66 Right there with you. I always hike with an umbrella if it's wet outside. People look at me like I'm weird but at least I'm dry. Goretex and everything else is only so waterproof. I also found the Z-packs ponchos are great as well.
@@Gameout50 My thoughts exactly :)
The amount of time, energy and research you put into your videos is astounding. Keep up the great work! I love seeing the testing contraptions you come up with.
Thanks so much for this! I’ve always thought gore tex was overhyped but that there were no alternatives. Also good to know it ultimately stems from DuPont tech, a company that has had several goes at extinguishing all life on the planet and very nearly succeeding.
In NZ, the places we hunt often average 200+ rain days per year, and it looks like the jungle from Jurassic Park (it literally is).
We wear wool. It stays warm when wet, and we don't even pretend to attempt to stay dry. Rain jackets are for cutting the wind basically.
It's also quiet when you brush again stuff unlike all the synthetics. If its a really really bad storm, an old school fisherman's yellow PVC rain jacket outperforms anything.
Similarly, at the opposite end of the spectrum - in the hot parts of Australia, there's nothing better than...linen. You know all those fancy-schmancy hi-tech sports fabrics that promise to keep you cool, wick moisture, and dry fast? Yeah. Linen does that already. Cold to the touch, hollow fibres. And those synthetics? They really only work when there's a breeze blowing on them. Otherwise, it just feels like wearing a garbage bag.
Yes agreed. I basically only wear wool and outer being with a lanolin coating. For sedentary torrential rain any waterproof cover doesn't need to be breathable. In Australia we have the bluey jacket, the UK has the donkey, the US mackinaw, French I forget the name. NZ has heaps like swandry, feathertop. All basically the same. Dense wool weave with lanolin. Bush shirts more a light flannel weave. Went out of favour with goretex and the like. some trades in Melbourne and tassie still use them. If going without waterproof jacket in heavy rain arguably high wicking 100% synthetic better because absorbs very little water but I still prefer the benefits of wool and adjust my behaviour to compensate
@@hoilst265Yes true but for hot dry climates the physical attributes are completely different. You want loose fitting clothing that is a loose weave/knit to allow air flow and encourage the body to Thermo regulate with sweat. As for materials yes agreed linen/viscose/lyocell/cotton and even wool. Yes completely agree wearing synthetics in the heat are completely flawed logic. The only synthetic I'd possibly recommend would be polartec delta but have never tried. This tries to mitigate the discomfort of cotton shirts wetting out from sweat by creating mesh grid of synthetic next to viscose. One section stays dry and the other absorbs moisture. The concept being you don't get completely soaked from sweat
How does waxed canvas/oilcloth do? Leaky on seams unless you constantly reapply the wax? Also sort of sweaty?
@@hoilst265 And it's one of the first fabrics we domesticated, if not the first.I love the stuff.
This video explains exactly my experience of 20+ years of hiking in the Scottish Highlands, one of the most humid places on Earth. GoreTex (and all those related fabrics) are basically useless. Got myself a light umbrella. Worked perfectly! 100% waterproof and 100% breathable!
I'm a former REI sales specialist in camping and outdoor clothing. I was geared up with all the best equipment and started out on a long Appalachian Trail thru hike and quickly realized that GoreTex and other similar fabrics were indeed useless in the rain soaked conditions on the trail in the humid south. The best thing was to just suck it up and expect to get wet and hope to dry out later on. Open up the vents and pit zips and flush as much air through the jacket as you can. The GoreTex shoes were also useless so again just expect to get wet, live with it and know that you can dry out later on. If you encounter a quick and short shower then you may be protected if the shower doesn't last too long. Often just wearing GoreTex outer wear gets one hot and sweaty and it basically begins raining on the inside.
Yes, it is a bit surprising that lots of people expect to stay perfectly dry in pouring rain, weather doesn't really work like that. I'm more than happy to settle for damp but warm, to be honest.
@@dohadeer8242 maybe wetsuits are the answer
Use plastic grocery bags in your boots for longer rainfalls. Your feet will sweat but at least you won't have a puddle between your toes. I'm also the weirdo hiking with an umbrella (and poncho). It keeps you dry stomach up 95%. It also lets you take your hood off which gives you so much more presence in the environment around you (hoods are so isolating, hate them). Of course this only works if you can spare the 250g for the umbrella (cheaper the better as it inevitably snags on a branch or gets destroyed by the wind). People think I'm a total newbie but I know they're the real newbies. lol.
Yeah I just found a free REI Gortex jacket in my food banks free bin. I thought what a score! Cause I need rain gear but oh well
@@901blitzFor every umbrella hiker, I can show you a rodo tunnel or a windy ridge top.
“When humidity is high, these jackets don’t seem to breathe at all.”
This was my experience with Gore-Tex hiking the West Highland Way in Scotland. I stayed dryer wearing shorts, sandals, and a large cheap poncho than my fellows hikers in full length head to toe waterproof gear.
(Note: Poncho goes OVER the backpack)
I think it was priests in Amazon who were on missionary trips and nearly killed them with pneumonia. Guilted them for being naked, so they put on clothes, stayed wet all the time instead of being able to sluff off water, and of course got sick.
@kenmorrisproducer What poncho did you use?
That is all well and good if you can stay warm in the cold and wind
@@danthelambboy Military poncho comes with a liner, so standard layering on self, liner inside poncho, and fold around body to secure with belt or rope. Arms are typically down to side so you don't lose that much body heat, esp if already moving. If it's blowing that bad, you should probably stop to take shelter anyway. There are some trade offs to a jacket, but weight, versatility, effectiveness, COST - it's really hard to beat. If you're going into an area where it could turn nasty enough - just bring a cheap set of Togs to boot. You can strip naked in jugle with poncho on to the other temp extreme of zero +/- with clothes, togs, and poncho/liner to act as wind/rain break - for what - less than $100 and 10 lbs of gear?
I'm sorry, but did you expect Gore-Tex to break the laws of thermodynamics and breathe in high humidity? I.e. push water vapour to a more humid environment without needing energy?
You continue to take this hobby segment to a higher level. Props
Finally some simple physics instead of marketing bs. As an engineer, loved that home measurement setup.
Gore-tex has limitations. It's not a "scam". This is video clickbait.
Even though it's a re-hash of someone else's work. Have seen this story elsewhere on TH-cam a year or more ago
...
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Come to Jesus Christ today
Jesus Christ is only way to heaven
Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void
Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mark 1.15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus
@@xxxxxxxxxx4879 It is indeed *very* simple physics. Jackets (doesn't matter what type) can't magically push water vapour to a more humid environment without needing energy to do so.
Despite marketing departments wanting you to believe otherwise, they can't break the laws of thermodynamics.
Worth a 30 second TH-cam short at most. (Not that I should've expected anything more just judging on the clickbait title.)
I own an Outdoor Research Goretex rain jacket and can confirm-- it does a pretty good job keeping you from getting soaked by rain, but it's certainly not dry inside. I always feel clammy underneath especially in the arms. I'm in Iceland (cold maritime climate) and even when I use it as a wind shell, it can feel clammy inside on cold, humid days as well. It works best when you're not exerting yourself (just sitting or walking a bit), or as a wind shell on dryish days, but once you start doing work, it always ends up feeling damp inside if it's at all humid outside.
The best winter jacket I have is old school sheepskin bomber jacket. You can’t beat natural material. It’s breathable, regulates temperature and wicks moisture. It will also almost last a lifetime.
When a daily downpour broke in a Central American jungle, we broke out our Gortex the guide broke out an umbrella. Two hours later we were soaked from the inside out while the guide was wet only from the knees down. Rainwear is just another tool to be used at the right time. Best mitigation though, pit zips! Don’t buy a “waterproof” jacket without them.
Great video backed up with facts.
Correct, Its quite annoying there are so few waterproof jackets with pit zips as standard.
If I remember the Army issue ones might have had them.
Problem with that approach is it is kinda tricky to hold an umbrella and do double haul fly casts…😂
Very convenient the rain fell straight down. I've got soaked with an umbrella walking 10 minutes to my local supermarket.
@@adamlea6339 maybe a jungle thing. Umbrellas don’t work well in windy Utah either where I live. Got to use the right tool for the right situation. I prefer light shells with pit zips, no one perfect answer for sure.
Love this video and actually it explains how I’ve felt with my goretex jacket through my years of use.
1. Performance in heavy rain - meh, keeps water out. But yes with sweating or anything condensation sits in the jacket
2. Performance for high winds, alpine conditions surrounded by snow where you want to have breathable but shell like barrier to make sure any melting ice or snow is not getting you wet. I’ve been glad to have it
The experience above makes sense now with the video
I'm old enough to remember the pre GoreTex days - at least pre GoreTex where I lived. What I had before where cotton and polyester-cotton blends (like the G1000 used by Fjellraven) treated for waterproofness. These kind of worked - actually really well in misty conditions or with snow well below freezing - but just didn't work well in heavy prolonged rain. I remember biking to school a couple of times in a cotton "waterproof" outdoorsy and almost new jacket and it worked for the 15-20 minutes ride, but after an hour in steady rain it just wet thru.
So going hiking with these types of clothes I'd bring a lightweight really waterproof jacket in addition. The other option was to leave the cotton jacket at home and bring only a more heavy-duty rain jacket that certainly would keep the rain out but was unnecessary uncomfortable if the rain let up.
Then GoreTex came along, and I bought one of the first jackets available where I lived. And it worked! Not like some miracle fabric that solved every problem, but it was lighter than my cotton jacket and much lighter than an outdoorsy jacket plus a rain jacket. It also kept me at least as dry in rain but was less comfortable than poly-cotton and cotton in warm weather when it didn't rain (no test equipment, but lots of experience and curiosity). I even did a (fairly unscientific but what I could manage) test cross country skiing in around -15C. Same loop of 5 miles three times with polyester-cotton blend, cotton and GoreTex and to my surprise there where clearly less condensation on the inside of the GoreTex jacket.
I don't disagree with your findings at all - it's fairly basic knowledge that with close to 100% humidity outside a fabric wont "breathe" much (good illustration with the parking lot BTW, hadn't seen that before). The question is however, what did GoreTex replace and what are the options now? Other waterproof-breathable materials struggle with exactly the same limitations when it comes to high humidity outside the jacket. I've tried Entrant, Triple Point, many versions of GoreTex, eVent, Dermizax and a couple of other with unspecified waterproof breathable technologies and in heavy rain they always struggle and I'll get condensation. But they also replace two other jackets that weigh more and I have to switch between when it's not steady all da rain.
I live in an area with fairly unstable weather but even here it's much more common with a mix of showers, light rain/mist, sunny, windy etc. than all day heavy rain and waterproof-breathable tech keep me fairly comfortable in all the conditions. I haven't found anything that works better, maybe except for an umbrella but umbrellas have some serious problems with wind and overgrown trails.
The beauty with all those membrane jackets is that they kind of work under different circumstances. A membrane jacket will protect you from the wind, it might give you a little bit more insulation when it's cold and it will keep the rain off if it's raining. So it's a multi purpose piece of equipment. However you need to know its limitations. This is transporting sweat caused by intense physical activity when it's wet outside - and worse wet and warm.
This is sound advice, but it doesn't match the "magic" you read about in gore tex copy.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has ever said that membranes will keep you dry in 100% humidity. There is no scam - membranes are breathable in conditions when you can use other breathable fabrics and waterproof when you need waterproof
@@dmitriitsunenko9055yeah this video is hilarious because it starts with a straw man argument. Nobody expects it to do both at the same time. The point is that it’s waterproof when it’s raining, and breathable when it’s not. It would be quite a jacket if it could enable you to evaporate sweat in 100% humidity!
So what you’re saying is I need to replace the DWR coating on my Gore-Tex jacket. Thanks for the reminder. A bit like someone spending $100k on a Porsche but never getting it serviced, and then one day wondering why it has stopped working.
Except that *every motherfucker* should know you need to service your car, whether it's a $1000 Buy-Here/Pay-Here clunker-junker or $100K Porsche ... but nobody really thinks you need to "service your jacket" ... I myself grew up on Gore-Tex and Columbia specifically was a huge brand in my area, everyone wanted one from 5th-Grade through HS and even the Grown-Ups.... and the idea of having to re-apply a coating to a jacket is just foreign to me, this is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. I live in FL now so I have very little need of a jacket but if I did, I wouldn't be buying one that needed Spray Tuneups.
these jackets are far better suited for higher altitude environments where the air is dry and you are more likely to deal with snow than rain than for a backpacking rain coat. I carry a simple north face rain jacket with pit zips and it works just fine
Working in NZ, outdoors all day in saturated bush, off track deep scrub. You'll never ever be try. You shouldn't even try. Layer up with thermals, create thermal barriers and let the 'waterproof' layer do it's actual job, wind barrier and insulator. Wet and warm is the goal. Dry is staying home.
If you are in a high altitude, low humidity environment why do you need a waterproof layer? (not a mountaineer - just asking)
@@chriswilliams1096Usually it doubles as your wind breaker, and when it does rain it tends to blow over more quickly so the air humidity doesn't get as bad as other places
Below 0 air can hold so little water that your fancy jacket won't work. Thinned high altitude air means even less water air can carry. You're giving bad advices pal
@@fiatlux4058 if that cold air with little capacity for water is warmed by the body heat it still holds as little water as when it was cold, but has the capacity of warm air. So the humidity falls, which results in dry air that can absorb water. It is kind of the same principle a hair dryer uses, the warm air can hold more water then wehen it was cold, ort in that case room temperature, the warmth of the air alos helps to evaporate the water too of course. Also it isnt about zero degrees, the ability to hold water drops with temperature in general. I dont know about mountain climate, so there could be other effects, causing dry air, or there may be no such effects, but from the physics of just warming and cooling air you get the effect of dry air.
This is IMHO the best video you have made yet. In fact, I think anyone who is new to the outdoors, and even many veterans, would benefit from watching this. I'm suspecting that you are proving what they are already experiencing, but you are adding rigor to their anecdotes.
If you search for "gore-tex scam" videos on TH-cam you find this script is like all the others. Zero research done apart from plagiarising others.
Right? I was so surprised by the change of content and the way it is showed. It's unusual for content creator to change in a better way after some time
Gore-Tex in a jacket works great here in Colorado. It's very dry and when it rains, it doesn't do it for long so it keeps the water out very well. Sometimes you'll get caught in a nasty storm and your jacket will get soaked through but the storm will be over in 30 minutes and then your jacket will be dry 10-20 minutes later.
Boots on the other hand is a no go for Gore-Tex. The membrane just can't keep up with the amount of sweat you produce which results in soggy wet feet. Boots with good ventilation and no membrane will stay much dryer, even with the many stream crossings we have to deal with in the High Country.
Any boots you’d recommend
I’ve known this for years out of experience that goretex and other waterproof breathable fabrics just don’t breathe enough with activity and rain at the same time. But it was sooo good to understand the science behind it. Goretex and other waterproof breathables are a giant marketing machine that have misled the public on the universal claims of waterproof breathable fabrics in all conditions. Thank you soooo much for this video.
This is why I use a 2x oversized Gore Shake Dry cycling jacket, with a wool sweater or liner underneath. (Works just as well for non cycling endeavors). This allows air movement, AND breathability, so long as its not wet AND warm outside. Wet and cold, no problem will breathe easily all day long. Warm and wet, not as great.
Really appreciate this kind of content! Really good companion to the FortNine video that did something similar for motorcycle jackets. As a runner I realized what you concluded in this video and opted for a much cheaper $180 jacket that doesnt use Gore-Tex but has goodish breathability and okay water protection. I just couldn't justify spending multiple hundreds of dollars on a jacket that with exposed membrane (like the Gore R7 Shakedry) that I would almost certainly need to replace in a few years of heavy use because it literally would just not last that long. The exposed membrane literally wears down with things like a running pack on for example.
Thanks. I cane across the FortNine video while researching this topic. It’s a great well made video and helped me tremendously while trying to test these jackets.
Ryan F9 is the GOAT
Thanks Dr Science! You have scientifically proven what my own experience has been telling me for years. Every time I have been caught in substantial rain it became clear, relatively quickly, that my jacket was no longer adequately breathing and I was getting wet from my own perspiration. Now I know why, and that I no longer have to chase the illusion of a “better” rain jacket. Very helpful - thanks!
Good video and analysis, BUT… 1) the big pit zips in my Montbell and Patagonia are great, and i regularly air out by fully unzipping and lifting up the jacket. It creates a fast cooling effect which is also reduces sweat. 2) when it gets hot, or i know it will be even just warm and rainy, i use a very thin alpaca or merino layer underneath and then the rain jacket. The jacket provides warmth, and can get muggy, so i do the regular airing out. 3) a big source of heat, sweat and lack of ventilation (air) is on the back, so i use a Vaucluse air ventilator with my frameless, hip-beltless pack. This extra air on the back helps with outside and inside moisture - less sopping wet back sticking to the pack, and less heat from the pack up against the back, which also means less sweat b/c less heat. You always seem loaded out with a huge pack, huge hip belt, and complete contact all over your body. I even stopped using a fanny pack and love the sense of freedom and air all around me. Improved visibility too when i look around on the ground. All this extra body exposure to air and fewer materials contacting me allow for extra ventilation, easy to open/close zip my jacket, i can undo the chest straps for a few minutes of super-ventilation as well. One thing to consider is the pros/cons of a goretex hiking PONCHO. Of course, it would have to have straps for wind, but the whole idea of the ancient poncho technology is that it allows for flexibility in ventilation.
As for the click-baity title of the video - perhaps phrase the title as a question. “Is Gore-Tex a scam?” And provide your facts, and let viewer decide. It’s a serious accusation to accuse anybody of perpetrating a scam. I know you just want clicks, but you can get the clicks without the formal accusation. If a specific manufacturer makes a specific claim that you think is, at best, dubious, then let’s see that specific statement and why you think it’s dubious or false. But no point in risking yourself from defamation to even go there, and you don’t have to. You provided a solid analysis that speaks for itself.
I think maybe you are ignoring the fact that a breathable, waterproof coat is still useful, even if it can't do both at the same time. It lets you have a jacket that keeps you dry in the rain, even if your sweat still gets trapped, which is better than just getting soaked by the rain, while also having a breathable jacket when it isn't raining.
Excellent. Everyone who goes outside should watch this video. Especially if its raining or humid out. Fabric is magic in dry-air mountains...useless everywhere else.
Edit; firstly I’m a fan of the channel. Secondly, GoreTex can be both breathable and waterproof simultaneously, assuming ‘correct’ conditions for the fabric to work efficiently . Gortex works, but it has its limitations. Your test created a humidity equilibrium either side of the fabric; of course this leads to no further evaporation. As you say, in cold/low relative/absolute humidity environments goretex will perform just fine. Raining isn’t a guarantee of high humidity as liquid water and water vapour are two different things, and the DWR is there to mitigate surface liquid from wetting out the fabric. If rain persists, humidity will rise due to the liquid rain beginning to evaporate; raising absolute and relative humidity. However rain is not an indication of inherent high humidity to the point that makes GoreTex immediately ineffective. In cold mountain environments with high winds, driving snow and low absolute humidity (absolute and relative humidity are two different metrics. Ref psychrometric chart for further info) with the user exerting a moderate effort (likely the largest use case scenario for GoreTex) it’ll work just fine.
I totally second this opinion, which I shared in a similar comment. For alpinists Gore-Tex works well. I add that in a rain forrest you'll get soaked with ANY shell, no matter what is the material, so better not to use a rain jacket at all if you plan a trip in Borneo.
As stated, "it can be breathable and waterproof," which is the main selling point of this whole gore-tex thing. However, it's not breathable and waterproof at the same time, what's clearly proved. That's ok..., but the companies should stop with this bullshit and start being honest while advertising their products as opposed to trap people to sell their shit at a ridiculously high price.
@@mikeb.9341 it can be though Mike. It’s condition dependant. Steven isn’t correct with that blanket statement
Plus you can always play with the air flow.
The other day I was hiking in a chill mountain, it was raining lightly but constant. I sweat a lot, and at some time I started to feel cold, so I put on the rain jacket. When I felt hot again, I opened the zippers, this way my body heat kept me dry from the rain coming in the front, and my back was dry thanks to the jacket.
The moment I got to the top of the mountain, the air was strong and still raining, closed the jacket completely, the humidity inside evaporated while I set up my tent, and I was feeling fine except for my fingers that froze.
Would a plastic bag or umbrella allowed that? Definitely not.
What about a cheap jacket? I don't think my sweat would had evaporated so easily.
What about a really expensive one? Probably not needed as well.
The same goes for the rest of the equipment, that is the reason we don trek in jeans and cotton shirts. We need to be breathable.
@@mikeb.9341 Mike it can be! It’s condition dependent. Steven is wrong with this statement
Your video points out exactly what I learned from guides in Hawaii. I would ask them about the clothing they wear and the most experienced would tell me to forget about the claims of how breathable a fabric is, get pants and jackets with big zipper vents because air circulation is the cat's meow. The more you are moving, the more you sweat, but also the more you are forcing fresh air through the vents. Another huge difference was switching to a mesh ventilated backpack.
In warmer weather, I love nylon. It's more expensive than polyester but it's more durable, dries quicker, and is much better than any other synthetic material at avoiding stink.
Not usually a fan of this channel but this video is great and goes beyond the standards of the recent consumerist "hiking" youtube trend, well researched, well presented, this is very professional.
we use gore-tex in our military gear but primarily for cold weather use, to not overly sweat in wintertime to get wet on the inside. It works well there
wouldn't vents work just as well if not better?
I have personally experienced this with numerous gortex products. It doesn’t mean they are useless, they just are not useful as advertised. I do get good results from my boots that have goretex. I think the difference is my feet pump air as I walk and the fabric is a lot thicker allowing more air movement between the wet outer layer and the humid inner area.
In my opinion it’s somewhat not a scam. If it’s dry outside you have a nice breathable jacket. If it than starts to rain, you don’t need to switch to a raincoat. It’s like 2 separate jackets in one. Just don’t expect it to be both at the same time
My Columbia Omni-Tech rain jacket is like that. Nice windbreaker type layer when dry but works great in the rain also. Probably had it for 10 years and still hasn’t failed me
Easy to say when you know - but it is not what‘s the adverts want to make you think it is. Simple math, still deception.
I was about to say this, for hiking i'd say goretex or similar materials are a "scam" just bring a decent poncho. But for everyday use like me living in the netherlands biking everywhere and not having to swap to a rainjacket when it rains (which is all of the time), it's ideal for everyday use.
The video is well made and largely accurate…however there is nothing new here…it’s basic science yes but it’s been acknowledged for years that Goretex works best in cold dry conditions…this is no great revelation. It’s not a scam as it has never really claimed otherwise. The issue is becoming more pertinent now thanks to more eco friendly water based DWRs which are not as effective at shedding water droplets. Entertaining stuff but not telling us anything that isn’t widely known.
it's DEFINITELY not a scam, he is exaggerating like crazy and being very one sided. Wateproof jackets are definitely very helpful in a decent amount of situations.
Thank you!!! You managed to adequately cover and explain something technical, without getting too technical and with so many numerical details that I lose interest. And you did it in 8 minutes. Keep up the good work!
One thing with the PTFE toxicity: Short perfluorinated chains are troublesome, but the truly long ones (i.e. PTFE coatings on cooking or chemical gear) are so stable (including thermostability), that as long as they don't come into contact with reactive or sharp metal, they are very safe.
And while the membranes are generally made with the "safe enough" molecules, the overcoating is decidedly not.
Like many outdoor enthusiasts I jumped in Goretex as soon as it became available in the 1970s, and upgraded through each new generation. It never worked as advertised as soon as the DWR deteriorated or in high humidity conditions. Finally I realized the flaw in the technology. ..just the problems that you identified. The only thing I have found that really works…to the extent that anything can. GOOD JOB exposing the scam!
I’m in industrial commercial heating air refrigeration mechanic. I’m out in it , from -50° F to to 140°F.
( sun +air temp & heat coming off equipment in the summer and working in freezers are -50° with fans blowing on you ) . I’m out in the rain the snow the ice as a part of my job and sometimes for long hours. I have pulled 72 hours straight no sleep .
The best rain gear I have found is a combination of a good old-fashioned army poncho with a set of rain gators (to keep everything from your knees down to your waterproof boots dry) . All you have to do is every so often when the heat and humidity buildup underneath, the poncho is just flap it to vent it. Gortex and other high-tech fabrics suck in those environments and believe me I’ve tried everything.
Lots of guys love Carhartt in the winter. yet if you work beyond 12 hours the humidity from your body wipes out the insulation value and you get cold. This is where polypropylene or wool as a base layer ( I like prefer wool for safety reasons it won’t melt your skin if something goes horribly wrong) fabrics a wool insulation layer and gortex really shine particularly in high cold wind and snow .
It's one hell of a trick to pull to convince people that you can be (completely) dry outdoors when it's raining. I mean, you can for a while, but not long term. Like in the video - water is falling from the sky. You can cover against it with an umbrella, with GTX, with a rubber suit, whatever but eventually you will get damp, either from the moisture in the air or from your own body.
Just going to share an experience that may be helpful to others. Hiking some years ago in N.H. in November. Some snow on the ground, snow in trees-melting and dripping, exceptionally wet. Temps 33-34F. After maybe 3 hours, we arrive at the shelter soaked to the bone and while fine hiking, begin to chill quickly once stopped (as expected). Instead of changing into some dryer clothing, realizing that the wet clothes won't dry well at all, I decided to just walk (w/o pack) at a speed that generated heat but not enough to sweat while opening my jacket zipper and vents accordingly. After about 20 minutes from the shelter I felt the idea was working and turned around to head back. Back at the shelter after about a forty minute leisurely walk, I was bone dry! We were higher now in elevation so trees were much shorter (less dripping) than 'in the forest.' Even the outer wear was dry (breezier up high). Probably (as I remember it), only my leather hiking boots were still somewhat wet. It was great learning experience in managing wet conditions.
Pretty much my experience. It’s not the jackets or the materials (gore-tex) but the way in which people use them.
The problem is people thinking they need a gore Tex jacket for hiking. Its purpose is for high altitude mountaineering where air is way dryer and the jacket works best in those conditions. It will never be wet and breathable at the same time, but it does allow some breathability over cheap rain jackets.
The problem is not „people thinking“, the problem is that that‘s what they (Gore-Tex) made ‚people‘ believe - intentionally so.
Gore-tex is absolutely not marketed as being only for high altitude mountaineering, and you're the first person i've ever even heard claim that.
Everyday jackets use goretex, trail shoes use goretex, headgear uses goretex. It may be more suited for high altitude use but it is definitely made for all environments
@@BlueShift815 It is definitely a marketing
Sounds like the typical disjoint between the R&D and marketing departments. Joys of late stage capitalism, lol!
All I can tell you is that the Goretex ECWCS Parka I wore in Alaska in the Army in the late 80's was thin, lightweight, and utilitarian and kept me super warm and dry. It was a huge improvement over the fluffy layers of the old parka we were issued. If that Goretex was a scam, sign me up for the scam. I rarely needed to wear the fleece layer underneath and usually wore only my usual summer Army uniform underneath.
I wear Gore-Tex in coastal Alaska. It's a good shell option for wet and cold climates. Might be too warm down South.
😂😂😂
love it I worked in the garment industry for 15 years, doing design and fabric testing, i have been telling people for years to stop with this non-sens waterproof breathability scam... there is no such things as breathable to start with, a fabric does not breathe it let moisture out or absorb it more or less depending on the construction and the fiber used.
As a scout in the PNW, I learned that rain gear fails pretty quickly in a downpour. But if you’re relatively warm, it’s not so bad and you’ll get over it.
Yeah, I don't mind being wet; it's being overheated that kills me! Much easier to get warm than to cool off.
I love rain...
@@RaveyDavey Sometimes no amount of waterproofing can block every point of seepage... & waterproofing does always wear off eventually...
Point being, that being dry isn't the be-all-end-all goal; temperature control is the more vital priority.
Kudos on, yet another, rock star video! Seriously, this is far more effort, with real-world application, than any of my engineering professors every put forth in their teaching experiments.
They knew you would watch regardless for your grade. I have to convince people to watch. 😂
@@MyLifeOutdoors I noticed the Eugene Silberstein parking lot / humidity explanation 👀 👍👏
Another point that i, for some reason, rarely hear in the WPB fabric debate is that sweat isn’t just water. It has a fairly high concentration of minerals, which also make it harder for the water to evaporate. And when after extensive use these minerals pile up on the inside of the goretex membrane, they can actually pull the water in through the goretex. Which is especially a problem with goretex shoes.
Gore Tex actually test and consider This in developpement now a days. They even differanciate betwen normal swear and fear sweat, because it has a different ph.
I'll admit, I paid over $300 for a Goretex jacket years ago, but never realized I was scammed. I thought it was simply "worn out" when it left me just as wet inside as the exterior rain outside. The good news is, I was thinking of replacing it, now I know better! Super interesting video. Thanks for taking the time to make it and posting it.
So this is a surprise to anyone? I've used them since the 70s, and they never worked perfect, but they were noticeably better than the hard-coated urethane jackets we used before. When you're backpacking, you only want one wind/rain shell. Sitting around in a rubber jacket to keep the wind off sucked, so the so-called waterproof breathable jackets were way better for that application. A few of my friends had expensive ventile parkas which might have been the best compromise, but like today, they were very expensive.
I really appreciate you trying to objectively science the heck out of consumer goods for a more educated customer. Tests we may never have thought of, found, or too lazy to do that you're taking to their natural conclusions. Thanks for doing the hard work bud and all of the content you work on!
one thing to also note when people say "my gore-tex never let me down". The current gore-tex membrane arent as resilient anymore as the old ones, because environmental regulation doesnt let them use the longest polymers anymore
Also, quality and features are lacking on newer models compared to a few years ago, eg Mamot GTX
Small correction: The membrane is the same ePTFE that Gore-Tex has always used. What has changed is that DWR coating on the outer layer of the jacket. Gore-Tex jacket makers used to use C8 florocarbons as the DWR, then switched to C6 when C8 was banned, and now some jacket makers will use other DWR. The point is, the membrane is fine, the problem was and is the DWR treatment on the outer fabric.
Outdoor brands should be required to not poison the environment...
And people should look more into sustainable outdoor brands
@@elliotmiller955 the membrane is different now
@@thefig8832 can you provide some explanation? This topic is interesting.
I've tried having this conversation with so many people but they are do deeply invested in the marketing bull crap to listen
Yes!! I came to this conclusion after multiple attempts to re-waterproof my trusty rain jacket. Each time it seemed just as wet on the inside. After initially being confused I found that it simply was trapping everything inside and no matter what I did, I would become wet after less than a couple hours in the rain. This is not good news when out backpacking! The nighttime temperatures where I roam never make it above the 40s (F).
Great video!!
Where I find that goretex works is in cold weather paddling gear. You need the waterproof-ness when in the water. You're going to sweat while paddling. The breathing happens when you get out of the water - I'm frequently wet inside the garment while paddling (sweat) but am dry but the time in have my boat loaded.
I have adopted ponchos for when I'm hiking - very well ventilated. I use a belt sometimes to keep them from flapping.
If you look through the different membranes they make you'll find that they already have this fabric dialled, it's called gore shakedry and has been implemented in mainly road biking and trail running attire. Due to it essentially being a reversed 2L membrane it shed water off immediately and had a waxy finish, it worked exceptionally well in rainy conditions but due to the fragility of the outer fabric it meant that the membrane would break down under heavy loads. It was designed for little to no need for packs (road cycling, running and trail running) and I can say that with a heavy pack my jacket lasted under a year before there were major leaks in the shoulder and hip areas of the jacket, this too applies to any waterproof and breathable jackets with super light membrane qualities as they're mainly designed to be used sparingly and infrequently in hot climates or in extremely high output pursuits where large packs are not involved
Shake dry is going to be discontinued due to Perfluorooctanoic acid being outlawed.
Hi Steven, great video. I've found that Goretex works excellently as a ski jacket outer shell. I think skiing is an ideal environment for it. It's dry and cold outside and you're only producing a small amount of vapour inside. Plus, the airflow is quite high as you're moving fast. I tend to buy used Goretex items and reproof them. The older items were built to a much higher standard and I prefer the style of original Latok or Berghaus. They were very well designed. One of my biggest bugbears is laminated pockets etc which detach too easily. Also, my one key feature for an outdoor jacket that tells me it's been designed by someone who knows: Pocket zips must close downwards!
I found out in the 90’s when I was a long distance runner that Gortex didn't breathe very well. Since then I've used Gortex drysuits when I've been whitewater kayaking and even when I've come out of my boat & fully in the water they've kept me dry but if the weather is warm then sweat can definitely build up.
About 30 years ago, I bought a hooded rain jacked, and rain pants. Both were Goretex garments. They were water proof for a few years. Then, they were magnetic to water. After several years of various treatments, I discarded them.
I now wear a light weight plastic jacket, and pants. As a trail buddy of mine sez: “Rain gear won’t keep you dry. But it can help to keep you warm.” That assessment applies to every piece of rain gear I have ever seen. Period.
Courtesy of Half Vast Flying
Wool will keep you warm, wet or dry.
I'm a delivery driver for Amazon. When it rains, I stay driest when I have the heater and air conditioning running. It really is all about how much capacity the air has for water, and if it's being dehydrated (due the AC), my clothing dries far more quickly than if I just turned on the heater itself. Delivering through several back to back storms in a month taught me that.
Note that even at 100% humidity your clothes will continue to dry out on you when the air around you is colder than your skin as the boundary layer warms up and can absorb more water. In practice I find 100% humidity fine at 20ish degrees C as those translate to roughly 50% at ~33C temperature of your skin.
Thank you for the confirmation of what I've believed for a long time. so many times soaked inside my coats and rain pants, got tired of it. stopped caring about wetness as much as keeping wind and cold out.
I worked in the extreme sportswear industry and we knew that the best that "breathable" fabrics could do under the ideal circumstances was about a 7% improvement. If the outside or inside got wet from precipitation or sweat, it was like a thick plastic sheet. But if you did not have "breathable", few people would buy. They were well trained consumers. Since we had an extreme customer base who knew when things were working and not, we were very early with the zip vents in pits, pockets, pant legs, .... And we had the flap vents also.
I wouldn't say 'trained', more like lied to.
The absolute BS by any brand with Gore-Tex, even still today, is amazing.
You'd think it was the best thing on the planet.
But most people who have used it know it simply doesn't work as intended, and the best you will get is a very waterproof item for a few years. You'll still get soaked inside.
Thank you for an excellent video. Quite a bit of research involved. Hhhhhhhmmmmmm.....from an engineering standpoint there are two requirements for these micro-membranes to work: water has to be in a vapor state; and it has to be under pressure. That is why the fabric works so well in the steam demonstration but doesn't perform with garments. With the steam setup, water is both fully vapor and is at a high enough pressure to force it's way through the fabric. In clothing, first water is present as liquid sweat as it come out of the skin (mostly liquid water + minor salts + oils, more likely to plug the micro-pores), and then there is not nearly enough pressure inside (almost zero) to force the small amount of vapor out anyway. The only 'breathable' fabrics are things like fishnets with enough open space to actually allow moisture to pass through without having to be under pressure. My preferences are ponchos for rain gear and Wiggy's sleeping bags (silicone treated polyester fibers with a high loft, good moisture control). Still open to experiment.
Thanks for a good video.
2 comments from me:
1) your test setup might benefit from a wick in the water to help it evaporate - perhaps an offcut from a wicking baselayer product?
2) I absolutely agree that goretex and all the competitors don't wick well during rain,
but when the rain is frequently on/off all day long (Or all month long in Scotland), then you get the benefit between rain showers. It's still cold and it's still windy, so I'm not taking my wet jacket off to pack it in my bag. I just keep walking/riding and if it's a good breathable fabric I will dry off pretty inside the jacket quite quickly. Even when the outer layer has wetted out, a 30 mph wind will dry that pretty quickly, and a good tight fitting wicking base and breathable intermediate layers really help get the moisture inside to evaporate.
I've also spent a summer riding in the southern half of the US. The weather is much more humid, much warmer, and more importantly, it usually rains very heavily for 30 minutes, and then the sun comes out again for the rest of the day. In those conditions, it's easier to just get wet and then dry again, or put on a waterproof when the rain starts and take it off when the rain stops.
Thank you for explaining this so well! I have grown tired of explaining this to others and was too inexperienced to make my own video.
This was in part why I converted to using a rain cape for bicycling (better airflow) and when I go camping in our typical PNW winter I ensure wicking-synthetic or wool layers because I know it’s not if I get wet, but if I can stay warm when I do get wet.
Kudos. The time and energy you put into research and production of this short video is incredible. Best rain jacket explanation ever.
What you miss in this video is that, as long as the temperature inside the jacket is higher/warmer than outside the jacket, there is still a vapor pressure differential that should drive vapor from inside the jacket to outside the jacket, even when the outside is wetted out. The problem is that this differential is generally not sufficient to transfer the amount of sweat generated while hiking.
That's a myth. If the outer air temperature is below dewpoint, then the vapor will condense before it makes it through the Goretex. Since liquid water can't pass through, the membrane will wet-out and block the passage of vapor.
Very true ,thats why pit zips dont work in the above conditions ,but they are a bonus slogging up a cold windy mnt ,helps cut that wind and then the zips are nice to reduce some heat inside .
Sounds like the third way it doesn't work, then.
Pit zips do work in such conditions. If it's not enough, you have to unzip/open other areas. Perhaps just not enough at times. Once when I was younger,, I was slogging up to Muir pass in the High Sierra wearing a T-shirt and poncho in light rain/sleet and was pouring sweat while doing so. It was fairly chilly. Still a ways from the pass, I started shivering for a while which then eventually stopped and I felt dead cold inside. At that point, I knew that Hypothermia was approaching. I can't describe it other than to say that I felt cold "inside" and knew that if I didn't do something IMMEDIATELY that something bad was going to happen... I quickly set up a windbreak and fired up my stove to make some hot soup and staved off the big 'H' at that point I think. Could have ended up much worse. I later used the first version of the US military Gore-Tex jacket which had pit-zips and a liner (which I still have) and it worked well enough but was heavy, durable and warm. I eventually switched to the first version of the Marmot Streamline Gore-Tex jacket which was incredibly light, had a mesh liner with pit-zips and worked great. Then they switched to no liner and it worked less great. It seems as if we're regressing at times. Haven't been hiking for quite a while but from the looks of the comments, little has changed...YMMV. 😉
Nice video, as a person that almost spends all my time outdoors I agree with your video, but I will say the best thing for me is fabrics that absorb little water as they dry quicker when the weather lets up, I have fallen in the stream, broke through the ice, and the best fabric for keeping me dry and warm are the ones that don’t absorb water(or very little), gortex or Hh pro are my go to as with high activity I stay dry, 3 days in minus 25 the only thing that was wet and ice was building up (sweat inside)were my Baffin boots while hunting with minimal heat to dry clothing out, could I have built a better shelter yes! My suggesting to anyone is something that has vents to let heat and moisture out when weather lets up, and if the shell does not have that I sew in vents to alleviate the down side of the outer shell, if weather is consistent with precipitation then a rain suit is needed(rubber suit) but extreme hot or cold with the rubber suit and you will be very uncomfortable!
I live in a tropical area. When it rains, nothing except shelter will keep you dry, the best clothing to wear in the rainy season, is quick dry clothing. If it's hot , but still in the wet season, you are going to be wet with sweat anyway , again, quick dry clothing is the answer.
I do a fair bit of prospecting, and carry a camel back water bladder and small storage pouches, I carry a small telescopic umbrella, which is very handy, provides shade when needed as well.
Absolutely right. Been saying this for year, which is why I went to a poncho years ago. The only time I'll use a breathable jacket is like you mentioned in the video, winter / cold weather...............
The poncho otherwise is a great option because air is constantly moving in and under and all around. You will notice if it's raining, you WILL get wet. There's really no way to avoid it......................
Well - unless you're doing REALLY cold (like mountains or near artic - or job where you need full protection) - poncho still best IMHO. Layer as you want underneath, put on poncho. If you want to trap air, fold it around and put a belt on outside. Plus if sun come out, you don't have to stop to take off, just throw back over your shoulders.
@user-hj8iq1zr8g because the cotton will sooner or later start absorbing the snow as it melts on you and will get wet. Which is a bad thing especially if you are, say, crawling/sitting/kneeling in the snow. GT gives you a hard shell with some breathability that actually does work in cold.
Ahh, thanks for that, it explains why my gortex lined textile motorcycle jacket works so well on my bike (lots of air movement) but is totally useless when I take a bushwalk at the end of the ride! And I take exception to that Gortex ad you showed which implies it's always dry down here in Oz!
I think it even worse that stated: If you have Gortex boots even on a low humidity warm day, the rate you create moisture overwhelms the silly slow rate the gortex can breath. You might as well be wearing plastic bags on your feet if you want to ford a stream. It is completely worthless.
Yeap. I've had 2 pairs of GoreTex hiking boots from expensive brands, and have been disappointed with both of them.
There’s different grades of goretex for footwear. The insulated / performance / extended grades in the Comfort range for footwear are designed for different temp ranges. Even some military desert boots use Extended Comfort, mainly for pathogen protection ie from dirty Afghan open sewers. It works great in hot weather. I’ve worn boots with it in the summer with it no issue, breathes as well as a non goretex boot. Absolutely critical to use the right products with it though, regular polish will make any boot a sauna.
The real hassle is drying them in the field if they get wet inside; basically forget about it until you get somewhere dry. If you know your boots will get wet inside you’re better off with a non WP boot and using WP socks instead.
Right, I had Gore Tex boots about 30 years ago. Never again!
The only good thing about goretex footwear is that the waterproof membrane is inside the boot so the outside can get damaged but your feet still won't get wet when going through puddles.
As someone who lives in beautiful wet England i figured this out years go via experience, lovely to see your video showing some science on the why!
From my personal experience I wear a thick plastic poncho for multi day hiking in the rain, Gortex for very cold days, or windy dry days and skiing, and i wear waxed cotton for short walks under 2 hours in the rain as it feels comfy even when a bit damp, and the heaviness of the jacket stops it flapping around in the wind. The waxed cotton/poly blends from a few brands such as fallraven are pretty decent too if you want something a bit lighter.
If this is the same guy then YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND! And that is so, very, very cool! That impresses me.
I watched a video you (I think it was you) did years and tears ago on maintaining gortex and gortex-like rain gear. At the time you seemed to be rather in favour of it. Many people commented about you being wrong (some, like me, for the wrong reasons). And here you are, in a world where no one ever chants their minds, changing your.
That gets you a sincere thank you from me. Thank you.
I’m always open to changing my mind. When I published the video you are referencing I was under the impression wet out was the problem. As I’ve thought more about it and dealt with it more I’ve realized it’s not just wet out
I think in dry conditions, in the mountains, where wind is very common, Gore-Tex works. Otherwise no athlete would use it. It is not a bias, it just works. Also it does for daily use. I have an Arc'teryx shell, and it keeps me dry when it rains in the city. Yes, you may need to reapply the DWR once in a while, but it is not a big deal. It is a spray.
I don't use the shell often, because for light rain DWR is enough, you do not need Gore-Tex at all, so in 5 years I never had to reapply the DWR yet to my shell. I used the shell under heavy rain and snow, and it kept me warm and dry. That was in winter with multiple layers below, up to -10ºC.
In a rain forrest, there is nothing you can do. The humidity is so high that it is pointless using a rain jacket. It is ok to be soaked when there are 30ºC. But if you get soaked at -20ºC you die. So, it may not be the best product on the market anymore, but Gore-Tex is not a scam, not for winter shell jackets, at least.
It’s a big deal that you’re poisoning the planet with your respraying of PFAS coatings
Well, it's breathable for the days it doesn't rain, and it protect from water the days it rains, it's not that bad.
I've been an all-weather hiker and motorcyclist for 40 years, and only bought a Gore-Tex labeled product once. It worked no more efficiently than my standard rain gear, cost me a fortune, and was an overall disappointment. Thanks for doing such an in-depth study on the non-effects of Gore's waterproof/breathable claims. You're doing a great public service by showing that one does not need to spend huge amounts of money on gear to achieve good results. Of course, that leaves more money for other new gear! :) Great channel!!
Bilt rain jacket is hard to beet for the price.
Bilt is a crapshoot. I've had some gear fail immediately and some last for years 🤷🏻♂️
@@rrandydduke I've been riding with Olympia gear for several years, and their rain liners work extremely well. I carry the lightweight liner to use when hiking as well.
I've known this for years! The capacity of Goretex to transpire moisture depends on a differential in vapour pressure. When it is raining it is 100% humidity outside, and when it is 100% humidity outside there is no vapour pressure differential to drive your sweat out through the membrane. So you get just as sweaty as as you would with much cheaper impermeable waterproofs. Goretex is at its best in cold dry conditions. My solution: a silnylon poncho. It's airy, much lighter, and you sweat a lot less. And a hiking umbrella.
Ive bought gortex everytime ive bought motorbike jackets, its never let me down, its breathable when its sunny and hot and its waterproof when its when, its pretty much exactly what i need for journeys on my motorbike
Wool for warmth, oilskin to keep you dry. There's a reason that's what farmers wear.
True. Never seen trawler men wearing Goretex either.
Pretty much exactly what I came to say. Except for times when I need to keep weight way down, I'd rather go with an oilskin jacket. I'm just as sweaty with it as with Goretex, but I'm drier in the rain.
Farmers don't care about the weight tho
@@poison_your_mind true but alot of people could just lose on kg of bodyfat so they can carry a oilcloth instead or become farmer strong and then carry
Watch deadliest catch if you want to see how to stay dry in the worst weather, not much goretex there !!!!!
In the army, people made gortex and gortex covers to be the be all end all best piece of gear. My first time downrange on fort Carson and it stormed like crazy.... Commander was like "make sure you've got your gortex cover on your sleeping bag". Sure thing buddy... As an hour later the whole unit woke up soaked in their bags
I wear a goretex jacket and pants for resort skiing. They have been 100% waterproof even during all day wet snow, with falling, sitting on the snow etc, until the seams go or they delaminate. For resort skiing, in a gondola/bubble or a mountain restaurant, you can see the steam coming out through the jacket, and you don't have to keep farting around with the front zip, pit zips or taking the jacket off. Similarly if it stops snowing, the moisture underneath comes out. So waterproof AND breathable is useful if it sometimes stops raining or snowing on you. I get that this is a hiking channel, but think it's worth a mention that the situation is different for skiing. ps all that stuff about needing a humidity gradient between inside and outside applies also if you're wearing just a pair of shorts or a wicking baselayer. Sweat will not evaporate when the humidity is high.
My goretex gear has been going strong since 2006. No maitenance.
Used it for reffing soccer wheb in running miles and its cold windy and raining.
Can confirm that it doesnt breath as well as i would want to, but i didnt expect it to under my test conditions.
I love love love my gear to this day after 18 years of ownership.
I used to have a North Face goretex jacket that I loved. But because I paid attention in high school physics I never expected it to ‘breathe’. If it’s humid enough to rain it’s too humid for perspiration to evaporate. It’s why Biloxi is sweaty hell in the summer even with your shirt off. What I liked about it was it was windproof, and waterproof, so I did not get drenched in rain, nor chilled in a breeze, and it could be stuffed into its own pocket to fit inside a pack.
Gave up on goretex boots years ago. Oh and pit zips are the bomb!
Good reminder to have an umbrella in the Summer.
Thank you. Some real science. There is also a temperature gradient from skin through any insulation to the inner jacket surface. As moist air moves through the insulation to the surface, it cools and loses capacity to hold water vapour. So the water condenses out into droplets which cannot pass through the
GoreTex and soaks the interior. I’m always wet wearing the stuff.
One of the main reasons I buy GoreTex gear is general durability. Sure, they might wet out if the DWR coating is not performing well. But man, I’ve never seen an outer material with such phenomenal resistance to chafe/pilling. The idea of a jacket with no outer layer is cool, but I do love the peace of mind knowing that a crash on skis or an errant stick isn’t immediately chafing or puncturing the underlying membrane. I have one Patagonia GoreTex jacket that is over 20 years old and looks like it was made yesterday. I have tried a few other brands who used GoreTex “competitors” (looking at you Trew) and the outer fabric almost never held up as well.
DWR your gtx as often as reasonable, prepare for some extra condensate in the rain, and throw in a small cheap and light poncho if you really suspect heavy rain in the forecast. Or just don’t go, because wet tents and packs just suck.
Regardless of whether you want to buy or own a goretex jacket, the information regarding how to remain dry is valuable.
You need airflow between you and the waterproof layer, to prevent water saturated air lamination. This then prevents you getting wet from your sweat.
So a fully waterproof layer with ventilation is best in any condition.
Goretex seems to be good when it's super dry outside. But if it's wet it's not as good, but still usable if it has ventilation.
But is goretex worth it considering the environmental impact, likely not.
The moment I heard these things don’t dissolve in nature, I stopped and sold my all plastic clothes. Then turned to life lasting natural garments. Now I’m super happy with my waxed jackets and Ventile jackets.
That and the PFAS cancer chemicals they're made of aren't compatible with excretion, so literally the only way to reduce the amount of them in your blood stream is to give birth to a baby, who in turn takes away some bio mass including some of the PFAS. Possibly the worst gift you could give a new life.
Waxed jackets are the bomb in everyday life. Maybe not hanging out on an icicle. On the other hand, if you want to get into the virtue of materials, cotton is supposed to be as bad as it gets.
I appreciate the amount of thought and time you take to test - keep up the great work
Here in Ireland it is constantly high humidity for most of the year, with temps usually ranging from -3 to -4 C to 20 to 25 C. I am yet to find a definitive "waterproof" that will keep rain out and allow moisture to escape. However, I am finding some success using a Poncho during summer (sil nylon and plenty of "breathing" holes!) and am trying a Paramo jacket during cooler months. The Paramo is interesting as it doesn't use a membrane and relies on a "pump liner" to force water/vapour from the inside to the outside using your body heat. It also adds a Nikwax (water based) DWR to the outer fabric. Only used for a few weeks so far, but it appears promising for the way I hike and how "hot" I run when hiking.
I’ve just about worn out my Paramo jacket from 5 years of year round use summer and winter in Scotland. Best jacket I’ve ever had. Walking, cycling, hiking. Warm in winter, not too hot in summer. Would definitely buy another one. And it doesn’t make rustling noises like a standard waterproof jacket.
I live in donegal and have many goretex jackets , find them to be useless here . I wear a brand called hilltrek, single ventile for summer and double ventile for winter . I spend basically my entire life outside . breathable and extremely durable
@@ian-o2c hey Ian, thanks for the reply, I have looked at the ventile fabrics in the past, including hilltrek, it's interesting as a concept also, (although buy once, cry once pricing category) and if paramo doesn't work for me, is a road I may go down myself.
@@austingavins9181 if you order it from republic of Ireland and get it delivered it to Northern Ireland, hilltrek dont charge you the vat . this helps a lot with the price
I still have my 1st Paramo from 2001 (or 2002) - I'd love to replace it, but it ain't broke yet!
I cycle commute everyday rain, hail or shine. I gave up years ago trying to stay dry on rainy days. A thin shell jacket to cut the wind chill and a nice warm merino base layer works great. I do get wet when it rains hard but I stay warm and love the feeling of the rain. I do enjoy the warm shower when I arrive though!
I grew up in a hurricane zone and realized this yrs ago. My favorite rain jacket is a waterproof non-goretex one with pit zips from Mountain Hardware. The best part is any phones or other electronics stay dry in the pockets. I even use it sometimes in winter in the Midwest while shoveling snow. I just put it over either a synthetic puffy jacket or fleece.
Well, it is not always raining, is it? Sometimes it is cold and then I sweat. And if I wear Gore-Tex that sweat is actually ventilated out, while the jacket is keeping me warm.
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Literally any buffer layer will keep you warmer then. And dry.
Great video. Big effort and well explained.
This is why I go hiking with an umbrella rather than waterproof equipment
That would never work in the windy UK
My arms feel tired just hearing you say that. Lol….no way I’m holding an umbrella for hours
Most people who hike any distance with an umbrella for rain or intense sun rig a way to attach it to their backpack. Ones made specifically for backpacking weigh less than 8 oz. @@redesignedlife777
Thank you, this explains why I get wet while wearing a Goretex raincoat when it is raining. Not what you want when it's raining, you definitely want to stay dry.