To be clear: the ultimate goal is to leave the tossing arm up the RIGHT amount. "Longer" isn't a magic fix for hitting the net and can actually get in the way of an athletic swing. If you'd like to spend time with me on the court shoot me an email: ian@essentialtennis.com. Thanks for watching 🙂
The point that's missed here is that holding your tossing up right up until the moment you start accelerating into the service motion proper very definitely is a good idea. Ironically, the guy in the video isn't actually extending enough despite hold what extension he achieves too long! Obviously, if you keep it raised as you try to strike the ball, that is a terrible idea. But for most players, the problem actually worth highlighting is the opposite: that they're not achieving enough upward extension of their tossing arm before they go after the ball. The guy in the video's problem I suspect is pretty if not highly unusual. I would think if you video'ed 100 decent amateurs you'd find plenty who aren't extending enough, but very few doing this weird thing with hold the arm up too long.
He could hold the L arm with his hand at the sternum instead of letting it swing down to his side. Yes, some pros tuck it lower and Murray looks like he swings it down by the L side, but Murray actually tucks the arm with his hand near the sternum and then as he lands he swings it down by the L side for balance. He is doing the Murray thing with the arm tucked across the lower chest and then lets it swing down. A good drill is to hold it with elbow tucked by side and forearm across lower chest with hand near sternum. This might improve his balance and simplify the rotation. Worth mentioning is the stopping of the L arm across the chest acts as a brake for the core rotation. When you brake/stop rotation, the hitting arm speeds up. Nearly all baseball pitchers tuck the off arm near the body to stop rotation and speed up the pitching arm. It is good throwing mechanics.
Hehe, I've had lessons and some coaching before, but I'm mostly self-taught through reading articles back in the day and through videos like yours. I know from experience that when I'm consistently hitting my serve into the net it's almost always because I'm not keeping my chin up and watching the ball as I hit it. But you're right, I've realized that concentrating on arm/hand positions is generally bad, particularly during play. It leads to mechanics getting out of sync. Particularly during play, you should really just concentrate on balance, rhythm and looseness while serving. That's been my experience. ;)
I find your video is 100% correct on a flat and slice serve but on a kick serve I have found holding it up longer than the other serves helps a great deal in keeping sideways but thats probably because the swing path takes a little longer that the other two. It is certainly very easy to over rotate too early by bring the arm down too early and letting fall by the side out the back, so as you have said before video analysis is key!!
Thanks Ian! I was listening to your podcast of the same title and decided I needed to see it! I’m at my rain retreat without my tripod (no!!) Thanks Jeff
Great video! I was looking for exactly this. I’ve watched my own serve back so many times and only just now realized this was one of the major issues. Seems so obvious now
Good video Ian! Even if you don't have the specific issue with the tossing arm that your student had, it's still a good reminder of the 'shot-putt'/'cartwheel' rotation you want with your arms and body on the serve!
Excellent analysis and fix. I've never seen a video specifically on the tossing arm staying up too long. Looking forward to trying these exercises out and being more aware! And videotaping my serve.
Should you physically drop your tossing arm down as you begin racket drop as a few teaching pros have said or is it suppose to come natural like the racket drop in which you are suppose to avoid your hands leading the way ?
One day recently my opponent shared a video of our match, and I saw myself doing this. I couldn't believe it! I wasn't trying to keep my tossing arm up. Rather, I think I was trying to hit "up" on the ball - but all of me was staying up. Thanks Ian, helpful video and tips to fix.
Hi Ian W. great video, I am very guilty of this problem but I have yet to fix it myself. My latest idea is pretend like I am swimming, so that as the legs push off the wall (ground for tennis serve) once in "trophy position", the tossing arm will come down like a swimmer in freestyle swimming. I've tried other ideas for kinesthetic feedback and proprioceptive awareness, this is the only one that is remotely reproducible for me since I have swam in the past. I just wanted to share in case you encounter a student struggling and feel this might help them.
Do you know that based on data/actual video evidence? Or are you assuming that based on how many times you've heard people say to keep the left arm up longer?
@@EssentialTennis Based on what I’ve seen over the years. First of all you don’t see many rec players who lift the tossing arm up to vertical to the ground and they bring it down too early. Then I watch Roscoe Tanner’s serve and he doesn’t, either. I don’t know who/what to believe anymore!😳😄
hey Ian, I've seen some variance in top level pros in terms of how much they drop their non-hitting elbow. Some players like Shapovalov have a dramatic arm swing back motion whereas other plays like Federer have a more subtle elbow drop motion. Is this something that is player unique and naturally developed (such as how a player reaches the trophy position), or is one style strictly better than the other?
That's a great question, Squid. The "swing the arm back" motion is definitely a small % of pro players, I'm only aware of a couple. For that reason I have a hard time believing there's a significant benefit to doing it that way.....otherwise more of the best servers would. It's probably a stylistic thing, but I haven't seen any definitive evidence either way.
I'm impressed your student does't fall over with those two arms in the air and bending body. Looks like a mistake most people arent athletic enough to make.
I just went through my normal service motion and just reaching up with my racket naturally brings my tossing arm down. You'd have to actually try to force your tossing arm to stay up against the force of rotation. How does that even happen...
Do you have a video for kids? Please make a video for kids how to handle/receive/return very powerful balls. Like adult kind of powerful ball :) At age 8-12 the size and weight of kids is very different and skilled tennis players sometimes can't handle huge blows from large kids that learned to use the body weight well. Some 11 year olds these days have weight of 18 year olds and when facing small kid, the game turns to be quite one sided...and painful...
Aside from wanting the bigger muscles of your core to start the motion, doing it with the tossing arm would lead to a rushed motion that wouldn't use energy as efficiently.
@@Einar2008not saying the power shouldn’t be coming from big muscles. Just pointing out it’s more intuitive to use arm to trigger the seesaw motion. You can also see in Roger’s slow motion that his left arm started first before his body moved (albeit a few mini seconds only).
@@Einar2008you can also see in Carlos forehand in this clip where his left arm clears out before his chest logo moves. His forehand power obviously from his core and legs but it’s his left arm triggers the chain event.
I hear where you're coming from.....but over the years I've become so allergic to focusing on the hands/arms DOING things for the swing. Focus on the body. Keep the arms relaxed. Good things happen. Focus on the arms: who knows.
I cannot agree with you more Ian.. This is an outstanding video. That bit of keep your arm up always irritated me. I would note that two days ago though, a Rick Macci video popped up and he said... Keep the arm up etc.. but it is so obvious that Federer, Sampras Isner Ivanicevic are not holding that arm up to when the racket hits it.. Great job. Also... you had him tuck his left arm into his body at the end of the serve.. that was what Sampras did. It's not completely necessary as you look at other pro serves.. but it is interesting he did that.
To be clear: the ultimate goal is to leave the tossing arm up the RIGHT amount. "Longer" isn't a magic fix for hitting the net and can actually get in the way of an athletic swing. If you'd like to spend time with me on the court shoot me an email: ian@essentialtennis.com. Thanks for watching 🙂
The point that's missed here is that holding your tossing up right up until the moment you start accelerating into the service motion proper very definitely is a good idea. Ironically, the guy in the video isn't actually extending enough despite hold what extension he achieves too long! Obviously, if you keep it raised as you try to strike the ball, that is a terrible idea. But for most players, the problem actually worth highlighting is the opposite: that they're not achieving enough upward extension of their tossing arm before they go after the ball. The guy in the video's problem I suspect is pretty if not highly unusual. I would think if you video'ed 100 decent amateurs you'd find plenty who aren't extending enough, but very few doing this weird thing with hold the arm up too long.
The point wasn't missed: 6:14
He could hold the L arm with his hand at the sternum instead of letting it swing down to his side. Yes, some pros tuck it lower and Murray looks like he swings it down by the L side, but Murray actually tucks the arm with his hand near the sternum and then as he lands he swings it down by the L side for balance. He is doing the Murray thing with the arm tucked across the lower chest and then lets it swing down. A good drill is to hold it with elbow tucked by side and forearm across lower chest with hand near sternum. This might improve his balance and simplify the rotation. Worth mentioning is the stopping of the L arm across the chest acts as a brake for the core rotation. When you brake/stop rotation, the hitting arm speeds up. Nearly all baseball pitchers tuck the off arm near the body to stop rotation and speed up the pitching arm. It is good throwing mechanics.
Hehe, I've had lessons and some coaching before, but I'm mostly self-taught through reading articles back in the day and through videos like yours. I know from experience that when I'm consistently hitting my serve into the net it's almost always because I'm not keeping my chin up and watching the ball as I hit it. But you're right, I've realized that concentrating on arm/hand positions is generally bad, particularly during play. It leads to mechanics getting out of sync. Particularly during play, you should really just concentrate on balance, rhythm and looseness while serving. That's been my experience. ;)
Go back through the pro examples in this video and see how many of them are watching the ball hit the racquet 😬
I find your video is 100% correct on a flat and slice serve but on a kick serve I have found holding it up longer than the other serves helps a great deal in keeping sideways but thats probably because the swing path takes a little longer that the other two. It is certainly very easy to over rotate too early by bring the arm down too early and letting fall by the side out the back, so as you have said before video analysis is key!!
Ian heard your podcast on this and your verbal explanation was amazing. I could picture everything you were saying.
Thanks Ian! I was listening to your podcast of the same title and decided I needed to see it!
I’m at my rain retreat without my tripod (no!!)
Thanks
Jeff
Great video! I was looking for exactly this. I’ve watched my own serve back so many times and only just now realized this was one of the major issues. Seems so obvious now
Glad I could help!
Good video Ian! Even if you don't have the specific issue with the tossing arm that your student had, it's still a good reminder of the 'shot-putt'/'cartwheel' rotation you want with your arms and body on the serve!
Thanks for watching.
Excellent analysis and fix. I've never seen a video specifically on the tossing arm staying up too long. Looking forward to trying these exercises out and being more aware! And videotaping my serve.
You'll learn so much recording yourself!
Should you physically drop your tossing arm down as you begin racket drop as a few teaching pros have said or is it suppose to come natural like the racket drop in which you are suppose to avoid your hands leading the way ?
One day recently my opponent shared a video of our match, and I saw myself doing this. I couldn't believe it! I wasn't trying to keep my tossing arm up. Rather, I think I was trying to hit "up" on the ball - but all of me was staying up. Thanks Ian, helpful video and tips to fix.
So glad you figured it out!
Hi Ian W. great video, I am very guilty of this problem but I have yet to fix it myself. My latest idea is pretend like I am swimming, so that as the legs push off the wall (ground for tennis serve) once in "trophy position", the tossing arm will come down like a swimmer in freestyle swimming. I've tried other ideas for kinesthetic feedback and proprioceptive awareness, this is the only one that is remotely reproducible for me since I have swam in the past. I just wanted to share in case you encounter a student struggling and feel this might help them.
Love the swimming idea!
Fantastic work Ian! When I saw the video title I thought... WHAT! Then I realised! Too long can certainly hinder the serve. You're a legend. 🎾🔥
Thanks for watching!
Hey, love how you work with the video materials - what app are you using?
i have this issue working on it
But Ian, your student is the world record holder in keeping the tossing arm up as long as possible. The majority of rec players do the opposite.
Do you know that based on data/actual video evidence? Or are you assuming that based on how many times you've heard people say to keep the left arm up longer?
@@EssentialTennis
Based on what I’ve seen over the years. First of all you don’t see many rec players who lift the tossing arm up to vertical to the ground and they bring it down too early. Then I watch Roscoe Tanner’s serve and he doesn’t, either. I don’t know who/what to believe anymore!😳😄
Ian that’s brilliant. 👏👏
hey Ian, I've seen some variance in top level pros in terms of how much they drop their non-hitting elbow. Some players like Shapovalov have a dramatic arm swing back motion whereas other plays like Federer have a more subtle elbow drop motion. Is this something that is player unique and naturally developed (such as how a player reaches the trophy position), or is one style strictly better than the other?
That's a great question, Squid. The "swing the arm back" motion is definitely a small % of pro players, I'm only aware of a couple. For that reason I have a hard time believing there's a significant benefit to doing it that way.....otherwise more of the best servers would. It's probably a stylistic thing, but I haven't seen any definitive evidence either way.
Great progressions and results! This will be super helpful for me. Thank you Ian!
Happy to help!
Well done Ian! (I rarely say that in tennis videos)
Thanks! 😃
Ian’s tossing arm during his serve looks exactly like his student’s before the correction. Interested to see if he uses his own advice.
I do all kinds of things wrong in my game, that's why I'm only a 4.5 player.
@@EssentialTennis Never stop improving. We appreciate all of the content you produce for your channels.
I'm a professional coach, that's where my time/effort is going. Game improvement is way on the back burner at the moment.
I'm impressed your student does't fall over with those two arms in the air and bending body. Looks like a mistake most people arent athletic enough to make.
He's super strong! It's pretty incredible he was able to hit such a strong serve that way.
this is indeed super interesting, thank you!
You're very welcome.
Simply amazing! :)
Cheers!
I just went through my normal service motion and just reaching up with my racket naturally brings my tossing arm down. You'd have to actually try to force your tossing arm to stay up against the force of rotation. How does that even happen...
Tennis players do a million different "unnatural" things every day. Glad the left arm coming down is natural for you 😊
Foot fault every time on a 4.0??
Do you have a video for kids? Please make a video for kids how to handle/receive/return very powerful balls. Like adult kind of powerful ball :) At age 8-12 the size and weight of kids is very different and skilled tennis players sometimes can't handle huge blows from large kids that learned to use the body weight well. Some 11 year olds these days have weight of 18 year olds and when facing small kid, the game turns to be quite one sided...and painful...
Why not use the left arm to trigger the seesaw motion?
Aside from wanting the bigger muscles of your core to start the motion, doing it with the tossing arm would lead to a rushed motion that wouldn't use energy as efficiently.
Because the dog should wag the tail....not the tail wag the dog.
@@Einar2008not saying the power shouldn’t be coming from big muscles. Just pointing out it’s more intuitive to use arm to trigger the seesaw motion. You can also see in Roger’s slow motion that his left arm started first before his body moved (albeit a few mini seconds only).
@@Einar2008you can also see in Carlos forehand in this clip where his left arm clears out before his chest logo moves. His forehand power obviously from his core and legs but it’s his left arm triggers the chain event.
I hear where you're coming from.....but over the years I've become so allergic to focusing on the hands/arms DOING things for the swing. Focus on the body. Keep the arms relaxed. Good things happen. Focus on the arms: who knows.
Ben! 🎉
Tossing arm becomes a biomechanical break for the upper body, as the serving arm whips through...
I use OnForm
Nice
I cannot agree with you more Ian.. This is an outstanding video. That bit of keep your arm up always irritated me. I would note that two days ago though, a Rick Macci video popped up and he said... Keep the arm up etc.. but it is so obvious that Federer, Sampras Isner Ivanicevic are not holding that arm up to when the racket hits it.. Great job. Also... you had him tuck his left arm into his body at the end of the serve.. that was what Sampras did. It's not completely necessary as you look at other pro serves.. but it is interesting he did that.
Oops....sorry Rick 😆. Appreciate the comments!
Fix his foot fault...
He foot faults?
@@EssentialTennis His foot did go over the line at the begging of his first two serves.