Stuzman has now removed the rust from my brain on the real operation of these sensors. This plus Scanner Danners explanations has made me an expert. Thanks for this video
This is the best I've seen on how to explain how the crankshaft position sensor works you should make more videos of how the other sensors work that would be great
Hi Stusman, I tried learn through many videos which has animation and high level presentation material but I couldn't able to understand. You made me well understand of the internal components of the hall effect sensor of the automotive, pull down and pull up circuit and its function. I am so thankful for your video. Please update many videos as your are a good teacher with well knowledge of the subject.
Terry, I have been a long.time follower but every time I rewatch you or Matt or Scannerdanner everything starts to fall into place. I am teaching myself and your explanations are excellent. I am a retired aircraft mechanic but am finding the automotive electrical side of automotive maintenance extremely interesting and I am doing everything to put it all together and learn the systems. But you are so correct when you say you need to know how something works before you can fix it. Thanks much Artie 👍👍👍
Thank you Artie for the comment and Matt does a great explanation with his electrical tutorials on his TH-cam channel and paid channel. I've found over the years, that if you have an interest in learning a topic, it will all fall in place, but may seem intimidating in the beginning. Don't give up because learning new stuff takes time, but when it all clicks in place, it's a really great feeling. I get a great feeling when I'm explaining a topic to someone and I can see when the light bulb goes off in their head and then they get excited about understanding the subject. Thanks again Artie for the comment and if there is a topic or something that you want to know more about, let me know. Have a great weekend coming up! Terry
Excellent presentation! I've been in the electronics industry for most of my life and this is one of the simplest, clearest, direct presentations about Hall sensors that I've ever watched...Thanks for taking the time to make this presentation!
Outstanding video, I wish my college professor would have explained transistors like you have. Would have saved me tons of time studying. Keep up the great work it's very appreciated.
Best explanation. I was struggling to understand this concept. And you break it down so simple. The pull down process is all about pulling down to ground. Thank you
Thank you Jado and glad to hear the explanation was simple to understand! And you are exactly correctly that the pull-down process is switching a load to ground. When switching loads such as an ignition coil, the NPN transistor is placed in the ground side of the circuit and a PNP transistor is placed on the positive B+ side of the circuit.
Thank you for these videos. I was a tech for many years, and I was always amazed at how few people actually understood how everything works together. I was always too curious to not try to figure something out that was a mystery to me. Through the years, I was certified by all of the big three, as well as an ASE Master Tech. You have a great tallent for explaining complicated systems easily. Great videos. Leon
Thank you very much Leon, and quite a compliment coming from a person who's been a technician for many years. As you've already mentioned, not a lot of people out there want to know how things work, but it's the key to being a good troubleshooter. I believe that most people want to just change a part on an educated guess and hope for the best. Of course, you, I and others are a small bunch of people who are interested in the way things work and want to diagnose the system to find the problem. That's where the fun to me is. Glad you took the time to watch the video and for submitting a comment. Take care Leon and don't work too hard. Terry
Thank you so much this was by far the best explanation of pull up and pull down design circuits. I been doing bypass tests with test light before but your presentation puts new light to my future diagnostics. Thank you again sir.
ramon ruzic You're quite welcome Ramon and glad to hear that the video helped you to understand pull up and pull down circuits a little better. I noticed in quite a few of your videos that you use a test light for pull up and pull down circuits and it is quite acceptable to troubleshoot. You've also got some great videos on your channel for learning also. Keep up the good work Ramon! 👍👍
The more you look for a hysteresis effect in nature, the more you find it. But I haven't thought of it's application in electronics in many decades. Thanks for walking me into a room that I haven't visited in decades.
What makes this explanation different from all others I've seen, is that it COMBINES the mechanical and physical construction AND electronic and magnetic principles of a Hall Sensor WITH the way it works to generate the Crank Sensor output in automotive terms, and how the Sensor output signal and the computer digital Logic circuitry work together. and how the Engine computer (and/or Ignition computer) use the signal. THANK YOU for doing this. Very much appreciated. I had a rough idea about how these items worked, but you have added a great deal of detail to my overall understanding. I knew the output of the CKP was a square or pulse wave, and vaguely understood the usage of the combined 3x/18x (for GM anyway) for Cam/Crank/Spark correlation. The clarification of pull up/pull down principles and terminology helps me. Paul Danner uses those terms in every lesson and I was never exactly sure which meant which. Just ran across your site tonight. I've heard Schrodinger (Matt) mention you several times. I look forward to viewing many of your other videos. If you feel like it sometime, perhaps you could talk about the Hall sensor usage on Chryslers. I have a 1999 Sebring 2.5L Jxi convertible. There is not actually a magnet that is separate from the sensor. In other words, the sensor is not pointed at a magnet. The "windows" are on one of the rotating parts inside the bell housing. The sensor is cylindrical, pointing toward where the window / interruptor passes by, similar to a prox sensor. Perhaps the magnetic field is generated by the sensor, then reflected back toward it, when the solid portion of the "ring" goes by, but the magnetic flux just goes off into free space when the "open" space in the ring goes by? In terms of failure mode of the CKP sensor on the Chrysler's (which is too damn often if you ask me); I've noticed that on old sensors that have been in place for many years, the Hall sensor becomes partially "magnetized". The sensor will pull a 6 inch metal rule to the end surface. Perhaps this residual magnetization near the sensing surface is what causes the sensor to no longer be functional? In other words, maybe the "window" portion of the Schmidt trigger does not see clear sharply defined edge transitions, so the "signal" the trigger is using is floating around in no man's land? I'm just speculating, but would be interested in your observations. I'm an obsessive learner, and eternally curious, so not only do I want to advance my diagnostic skills to the level of always being able to identify which part is bad, but I ALSO am always curious in HOW it failed. In other words, what the exact Failure Mode of the part itself is. Also, if you could post a clarification explaining HOW MUCH of the drawing you used of the circuit is INSIDE the Hall effect sensor case, and how much is OUTSIDE (typically). Is the Op-Amp inside the sensor? (I would think it would be, due to noise issues). Is the Schmidt inside the sensor casing, or is that typically inside the computer / ignition module? If the failure of a Hall Effect sensor such as I mentioned above is not due to the gradual magnetization of the sensor, then it must be due to the failure of one of the semiconductor elements inside the sensor. I'm just wondering which of those two causes is most likely (if you know). These baby's can cost over a hundred dollars. I had a failure on my car which I kind of narrowed down to either the CKP or the Cam sensor or the ignition coil. Turned out it was the coil. If I had a scope I could have seen it quickly, instead of the dozens of hours I spent solving it (actually I didn't solve it, had to eventually have it towed to my mechanic, and they solved it, and identified the coil was bad). But that was after I spent $100 for a new Crank Sensor. The coil pri and sec resistance were within spec, but it just didn't develop enough output. An internal short under stress, I assume. Thanks for your work sir.
Holy moly Douglas...Looks like you really want to learn all about things and how they work. That's a good thing and I commend you on taking the time to learn about different devices and how they operate. Yes, I'm good friends with Matt and he's doing good things on his channel similar to what I'm doing. I guess the only difference is that I'll show the bolts and nuts aspects along with the diagnostics. And he likes to focus on the diagnostic part. We've even discussed electrical stuff on cars through private videos. He's a good fellow and you can learn a lot from him. Yes, I'm familiar with Paul Danner and his channel and he does pretty good stuff too. I think a lot of his lectures is probably over a lot of people out there where a lot of assumption is that you probably already know this. Glad to hear that the pull-up and pull-down explanations that I gave was clear to you. I'm not familiar with the crank sensors on Chrysler products, but since it's a Hall-Effect sensor, it shouldn't work any different from any others out there. Hall-Effect sensors will typically have three wires, one B+, a ground and the sensor output. I would assume that you have the same setup. Sorry, don't have any wiring diagrams to look at for your particular vehicle. Sorry Douglas as mentioned, not familiar with the Chrysler products. Yes, it's always a good thing to find out why did the part fail. Sometimes that can be challenging as it may point back to design issues. I do elaborate on things that I find in the videos of what I believe caused the failure. And how to improve on the repairs so that we don't see it again. Well, at least for a long time afterwards. As for what's outside and what's inside the Hall-Effect sensor, pretty much everything is inside. This will include the Hall-sensing element, op-amp, the Schmitt trigger and the output transistor. Most people don't talk about the internals of devices because you can't get to the inside anyway. But I think its a good thing to know at least what's going on inside the sensor instead of treating it like some magic 'black box'. As for the sensor becoming magnetized, I don't see that being a problem. But the sensor having a magnet means it could attract metallic shavings, etc. and this could disrupt the signal. A lot of times if you inspect the sensor and see shavings, a good cleaning to remove this debris could restore the crank sensor waveform. For the most part, I believe they fail due to the harsh conditions of the environment and heat. Heat is the number one failure of electronics. And Douglas I commend you to spend several hours, (maybe days) on looking into your car repair when you had a coil failure. Although you didn't fix the problem, your diligence in trying to find the issue is enough to say that you have the character and desire to learn more about these systems. A scope would be a big plus when you're troubleshooting electronics. They will tell you yes or no if the electronics is working correctly. And then you can move on to some other system to verify its operation. In other words, it takes the guess work out of diagnostics. And I guess that you know now about coil primary and secondary specs is not an absolute to yes/no condition of the windings. A coil can have a shorted turn or two and an ohmmeter will never let you know. It will read fine. But when you push some current down the winding, the short will show up using a scope with an amp probe. Scopes nowadays are getting cheaper and cheaper and you may want to consider getting one when your budget allows it.
Hello Sir.. Thank you taking time in making this video. It explains in detail about Hall Effect Sensor working. I always wanted understand in depth about how the sensor works internally and how it's signal is read by the ECU. Now after going through your video I have very good understanding of the complete system. If you have time, my request you to make video on Ignition coil internal schematics along with how ECU is controlling it. Additional request you to please make some videos on Electric Vehicles as well. Once again I sincerely thank you for putting efforts into making this video.
Terry, these vids just keep getting better and better ! I love the way you explained the internal workings of the sensor's circuits and what they do. Like I read in one of your responses to, I think it was Douglas Lee, that understanding how these sensors and systems works eliminates the theory that there are these magical black boxes under the hood ! LOL ! Making these types of vids are really great !
Yes, in reality the electrons flow from negative to positive and is called electron flow. In troubleshooting, some folks will mention conventional current flow which is from positive to negative. It really doesn't matter which way you want to look at it when troubleshooting. I tend to use conventional current flow when troubleshooting. When I'm analyzing transistors, etc. at the atomic level, it's easier to use electron flow. Hope that helps!
Yes, I guess you could say that. Think of it this way. On a battery there is a negative and positive post. The negative side has electrons and the positive side has electrons. The negative side just has MORE electrons and the positive side has LESS electrons thereby giving it a more positive charge on that side with respect to the negative post. Keep in mind that the positive post is still negative, but just less negative. The excess electrons on the negative side wants to get to the more positive side to stabilize. So, let this continue and the battery is dead because there are an equal number of electrons on each side. So, electrons having a negative charge will always flow to a more positive charge. And of course positive is a relative term meaning less electrons to what you're referencing it to. In our case, the negative post of the battery. Was all that clear as mud? :)
Thank You. I might also surf around and see if I can find any more info on what is inside the Chrysler style Hall Effect Sensor. I'll let you know if I learn anything significant. MAYBE there is a magnet "behind" the windows and vanes on my engine, but I did not think there was. I might be wrong. I'll look into that. Thanks for all your replies. I look forward very much to looking at some of the other work you've put up. Regarding the Sun scope.......I met "my" mechanic in about 1977, when I was driving a taxi. He ran a "speed" shop, and he built race cars and engines, along with doing regular retail mechanic work. He was, and is, a genius with engines and vehicles. He became known as a specialist in recurving distributors for perrformance, and also in tuning Holley carbs. In the racing community, that was a great skill, because it was difficult, and not many people could do it well. I've taken every one of my cars to him ever since. Unfortunately, he has become seriously ill recently, and probably will not be returning to the business, although the shop where he has most recently worked has excellent people, so I still have a reliable resource for repairs that I can't do myself. But I think once I get my own Pico and AutoEngenuity or similar scanner, I'll be seriously dangerous! He used his big Sun scope all day, every day. I still remember being amazed the first time I saw it. Beautiful. I hear that there are still a few kicking around, some in excellent condition, although most of the gas analyzers don't work anymore, and the parts are impossible to find, from what I hear. It's too bad that Snap bought them out. I do understand the memory of digital scopes, but I wasn't thinking about it when I wrote my comment about why nobody uses the big Sun's anymore. I agree that a Pico with a nearly infinite memory is an awesome tool. Thanks again. -Douglas
There you go Douglas...do a little research and see what you can find out. When you run across something, be sure to let me know. Curious minds like yours and mine need to know. If it's a hall-effect sensor, there's got to be a magnet somewhere, (all that I've seen are inside the sensor), but who knows maybe there's some crazy design of Chrysler's that's behind the interrupter. And yes, when you get a scanner and scope, there won't be any stopping you at that point. You'll be light years ahead of most garages out there. In fact, Pico has come out with a new two and four channel scope that has just increased their memory, has isolated inputs, increased their input voltage to 200V and a few other features. Mmmmm, very nice...check it out here www.picoauto.com/vehicle-diagnostics-news.html
Solution; I think now, after reading your response below, that I very much misunderstood what you were saying in the video. I thought you were saying that with a crank sensor, that there would be a separate discrete magnet or magnetized area that would pass BY the sensor, activating it. I didn't realize you were saying there would be a magnet INSIDE the sensor [which is exactly what I was theorizing, but maybe didn't explain well]. I have confirmed after a couple hours of research tonight that yes, indeed, SOME (not sure if all) CPS have a magnet INSIDE the sensor, and that the actual "hall region" location (the semiconductor material that is the Hall sensor proper) is IN BETWEEN that magnet and the surface of the metal object that passes by the sensor (such as teeth on a flex plate or harmonic balancer). Also, that it IS the change in "reflected" flux, that the sensor see's. Maybe not "reflected", but as least "changed" by the introduction of ferrous material getting very close to the end of the sensor. I read several articles focusing on the Chrysler sensor design, but after further reading realized it was typical. The best technical article I found is here: www.electronics-tutorials.ws/electromagnetism/hall-effect.html SO, we're agreed! Glad to get that one put to bed.
Glad to hear that you got it all figured out. Feels good to get something figured out doesn't it? Anyway, got to hurry to work so I'll have to look at the article later. Take care...
Thanks a lot--I now understand what is going on in the sensor circuit and KNOW how to test it unlike other tutorials that emphasize memorization which leads back to forgetting. Do you know a good book where I can continue to study Automotive circuits in this detail? All of the automotive books I have never really expalin. By the way the video you had about EBCM lead me to remove my EBCM on my Lesabre open it up and solder the corroded points reintall the EBCM and now fo over a year no codes and no dash lights!
Hi Aaron! Glad to hear that you found the video helpful! Unfortunately, most automotive text books don't go into detail about how the individual circuits work. My best advice is to find books on electronics that will cover the details in how circuits work.
Yes, you're right and I've thought about that since I've done this video. Working on other videos now of showing theory and the practical side but not on sensors at the moment. Thanks for the comment!
So where is this magnet placed exactly, Is it inside the sensor? which is being interrupted by a ferrous reluctor wheel, Or the reluctor wheel it self is maganetic, or it depends? and how exactly does the reluctor wheel teeth effect the hall chip voltage? and THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO EXPLAIN TO US.
The magnet is located 90 degrees across from the hall-effect sensor and is located within the sensor. As the teeth of a gear swings by the sensor, the magnetic flux from the magnet is disrupted which creates a voltage across the hall sensor. Hope that helps.
The confusion resulted from you saying that the interrupter ring blocks the magnetic field, which won't be plausible if the magnet and the hall chip where in one piece. Also if the interrupter ring was external to the Hall sensor I will assume it will only alter the hall voltage and not erase it completely -e.i only dropping it below 2v or such- also the excess electrons that will make the switching current for the transistor are as a result of the 5v regionally supplied to the hall chip right? Sorry for asking some elaborate question and Thanks a lot again.
Good video. I have seen 2 wire Hall Effects also, I guess its an internal 12-5v regulator in those? Seems no difference in testing but can be confused for a VRS. Thanks!
Hi SpelFocus. For those two wire sensors that you're referring to, those are called magneto-resistive type. These sensors are two wire and they produce a square wave signal like the hall-effect sensors, but it's based on the resistance change due to a magnetic field. On these type of sensors, the supply voltage and signal output wire are the same. In other words, the signal rides on top of the supply voltage. That's why there's only two wires on these. Thanks for your thoughts Spel...
Hey, I hope you and your family had a Great Christmas, and have a happy New Years. I had a question. Eric O just did a Vid on a Chevy 6.0L, I dont know if you had a chance to see the video yet. But it was a no start, no rpm signal, no spark or Injector Pulse. So... Of course next step was check the Crank Signal. He Scoped the Signal and got a squarewave that rised to 8.7v's to falled to 1.67v. He almost missed it, because (he saw a sqaurewave , lol). He replaced the sensor and it fixed the truck and now the signal was 12v to 0v. I think a Pull up design. Now I was wondering, is a Bad Sensor the only Possible cause for this problem , or could there be problems somewhere else in the circuit. Like a Bad Ground, Or ???.
+Dana Buss Hi Dana and the family is doing pretty good watching the Panthers and Falcons football game. For the most part, a crank signal is the most likely culprit. But as you've mentioned, the power and grounds should always be checked and if they're good and the output isn't up to snuff, then you'll change the sensor. And one of the key things to check is to make sure the signal will rise to the supply voltage and get pulled down to near 0V. Thanks for the question and you and your family have a happy New Year also.
+Dana Buss Hey Cyril..I was wondering how you were doing and hope the family is doing good. Also wishing you and Happy Holidays too. Still looking forward to some of those videos (smiling...). Take care Cyril.
I am having trouble getting my head around a grounded block somehow having a "+" plug that creates a path to the other leg of the transformer. If I think of it as an isolated circuit I am fine but it is all attached to a giant conductor that is connected directly to the battery ground. What am I not grasping?? I have been wrestling this for some time and the clarity of your videos makes me think you can solve my dilemma.
When you look at the transformer + and -, think of this that one side will be more positive or negative with respect to the other side. Let's say that you're looking at the + side at some specific time. At that very instant of time, the other side will be less positive or more negative than the other side, (both mean the same thing). Okay, let's follow some current out of the transformer using the negative side. Electrons leave the negative side, travels to the top of a plug, goes down the center electrode and jumps the gap. Now, the side electrode is connected to the engine block which has you've mentioned, is grounded back to the battery. The electrons couldn't carry less about this because the current started from the transformer and they want to get back home. So, the engine block is only used to carry the electrons to get over to the other plug, but this time the spark is going to come from the side electrode, jump to the center electrode leaving out of the top of the spark plug and returning back to the other side of the transformer. So, even though the block is grounded, the electrons don't care about it being at battery negative. The only thing they want to do is get back to where they started from which is the secondary side of the transformer. Electrons will always leave the source and their job is to get back to that source. So, even though the battery is a source too, the electrons to fire the plug didn't directly come from the battery. Think of the secondary side of the transformer as the source. Hope all that makes sense David.
Well done. Trying to digest latest ATS video; Honda Pilot CKP fail. BT explains that CKP trigger wheel bacame magnetized and is causing intermittent surge and stall. Very interesting case study. If you have a chance to watch it, would live to hear your thoughts.
I believe that Bernie Thompson is the most knowledgeable technician in automotive repair. Whenever he comes out with a video, I always watch them. And of course, his last video has a lot of interesting information in it. Going back to the days of when I serviced color TVs which had CRTs, picture tubes would become magnetized with the early generations. Of course, with the later generations of TVs, there was a degaussing circuit in them that automatically demagnetized the picture tube when the power switch was turned on. I made my own degaussing coil which was made up of several hundred turns of magnet wire wound into a circle about 12" in diameter. Bernie is correct that you always move the coil and slowly pull it out to lessen the effect of the magnetic field. The only difference that I would do is to have a switch on the coil. The procedure would be the same, slowly moving the coil over the teeth and at the same time moving the coil slowly outward. Once the coil has been pulled away from the teeth by several inches, turn the coil 90 degrees to the teeth and then turn off the switch. By turning the coil 90 degrees, the magnetic field will be at its weakness and would minimize any chance of remagnetizing the teeth. It was a great video for sure.
@@stuzman52: Thank you for reply. Your hall sensor video was top notch; you obviously love navigating the deepest rabbit holes. Coincidentally, i repair CRT monitors in old arcade machines, so I'm very familiar with degaussing as well. I love BT's videos; a man that navigates rabbit holes second to none. In BT"s latest video, he states that the trigger wheel became magnetized sufficiently to cause intermittent surge and stall; FACINATING. I've never heard of this before. Have you? I would think that the magetic field being emitted from the trigger wheel would need to be nearly equivalent to the field of the biasing magnet in the hall sensor to have an effect sufficient to cross a threshold in the Schmitt trigger. Yes? Adding to my confusion, the scope pattern of CKP ahead of SURGE events looks normal; only when vehicle dies do we see a square wave that pulled down only HALF WAY, which defies the rules of the Schmitt trigger. Bizarre. And wouldn't the biasing magnet in the hall sensor try to magnetize spots on trigger wheel every time the vehicle sits overnight? This case study is really intriguing, but a few dots did not connect for me. What's your take?
@@hightttech I've never heard of this before, but with the ground cable in the wrong long location, it would be quite feasible to see how the entire crankshaft and teeth would become magnetized. The magnetic field emanating from the trigger wheel wouldn't have to match the field strength of the magnet inside the sensor for the signal to be disrupted. Let's say that the magnet inside the sensor has the north pole pointing to the reluctor teeth. And when the reluctor teeth got magnetized, it was polarized with a south pole. The net effect of these two fields reacting would be less intensity, but the sensor could still erratically work. I believe this was the scenario with Bernie. If the teeth had been polarized with a north pole, these two fields would reinforce and the net effect would be stronger, possibly that the sensor would not even switch. This is just my thoughts and I don't know for sure. My thoughts are the individual pulse widths were changing. Bernie did show this by using the cursors on one pulse width throughout the waveform. As mentioned, I believe the pulse width on all the pulses were varying. One commenter mentioned about using the frequency function to show how the frequency would be varying. This is another way to confirm the widths were varying. Also, with two interactive fields, one from the sensor and the other from the teeth, the sensor would be having a delayed time of the transistor switching which we saw in the changing of the pulse width of the injectors. As for the transistor not switching when the engine slowing down, my thoughts are that the teeth are passing through a magnetic field from the sensor which gets disrupted by the teeth. Obviously, the sensor seemed to work somewhat okay when the engine was idling at it's normal speed. This is what causes the switching of the transistor; the disruption of the magnetic field from the sensor. As the engine slows down, the electronics in the sensor has more of an issue with the magnetic field from the teeth and the interaction of the magnetic field from the teeth. It's just that the schmitt trigger didn't see the threshold of voltage to make the final switch to ground. So, as the engine slowed down, there was more of an issue between the magnetic field of the teeth and the sensor. Keep in mind, these are just my thoughts, but I believe this is most likely what was happening in Bernie's video. Oh, why doesn't the magnet in the sensor magnetize the teeth? To some degree, it does, but the magnetism is so small that it's not going to effect the sensor because of the distance from the magnet to the teeth. Seems like you're doing some deep thoughts on the subject and that's a great thing, as I like to try and dissect issues also. Have a great day!
Yes, I agree that heat and vibration are probably the failure mode for the CKP sensor. The question about the Chrysler sensor was basically: how can the sensor work if it is not looking at a magnet? The "windows" and "blades" ride about .5 mm from the end of the sensor. But there is no magnet behind them. So, somehow, the sensor is reading some variation in magnetic flux, but I am theorizing that the flux has to be generated by the sensor itself, and then "reflected back". Any thoughts on that? I'm surprised that you have also found shops without ignition scopes. I thought my experience was a fluke. SIX shops, and none had an ignition scope? Sheesh. Do you remember the HUGE Sun scopes back in the 70's, that had a blindingly bright CRT that was like 15 inches high? I think they must have used some kind of "xenon" or something to create the trace, they were so bright. It's amazing nobody uses those anymore. I wish I had one of THOSE babies! For myself, yes, I will get a scope and a scanner when I have the money. My aspirations are a Picoscope and AutoEngenuity. I do have a traditional analog labscope=B+K 60 Meg 2 channel. I have not used it on my car yet, but am looking forward to getting a clamp for the secondary wires and seeing what they look like on the CRT. since it's the usual 8x10cm, I might not be able to look at six firings at once, but I can probably look at a couple at a time. I just found out Pico has a very basic scope for under $200, so that is encouraging.
Most of the stuff I've done Douglas has been with GM and Ford. But hall-effect sensors has to be sensing the magnetic field which is from a magnet. So, I guess the question would be, where is the magnet located? It has to be somewhere within the sensor. As for the magnetic field being redirected back is a new one for me. I've never heard of any such sensor. Tell you what Douglas, let me review some of Paul Danner's videos on Chryslers as it seems he put some videos up on crank sensors. And with his diagrams, I might be able to theorize something up for you. Oh yes, I remember the Sun scopes very well. My dad was an automotive mechanic for 45 years and when I went to the shop to visit him, I can remember that big thing sitting in the corner. I really don't think they used the thing that much. Well, at least I never saw them using it when I visited. The reason they don't use them anymore is because of being analog. Let's say you saw a glitch on a waveform and you say to yourself, "I would like to go back and see that." Sorry, it's gone forever because those scopes and analog scopes today don't have any memory to store waveforms. Another reason is that they didn't have long time bases that scopes have today. And that's where you've got to be careful in picking out a scope. You also need to look at the record length to see how much data it can store. So, a scope with lots of memory is a good thing which means long time bases. You can't go wrong with a Picoscope as that's the scope of all scopes. As you may know, I have a Picoscope with four channels. And Picoscope has lots of memory to give you those long time bases. In fact, I've got three other scopes and when I have an issue at work, (electrical engineer with automated industrial equipment), I'll bring it in to look at high speed communications signals on PLC's, bus channels, drive controllers, etc. If you want to see what some of the guys are doing out there with their PicoScopes, take a look at this channel www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl. If you buy your scope from them, you'll be getting a full subscription free to the other areas of 'secret stuff' known to those members. There you will learn how to analyze waveforms and from that you'll be making a diagnosis. As for your scope that you've got, go ahead and play with it. You can still use it to look at signals, but keep in mind that you won't be able to save anything for future reference. But don't let that stop you, you can always learn from what you got. Take care Doug...
The fundamental of all modern electronics, the core, the real working principles is straight foreward. Ready? The so called 7 logic gates. You read that right. You can read it one more time. In fact is just two logic gates and the other 5 come from the first two. 1. And Gate. 2. Or Gate. Which translates and refers to, either series or parallel circuit. End of the story. And this man is right. Most folks are strangely parts changers, even the experts. Mother nature designed us to learn quickly by means of copy catting. And it is a good thing otherwise the system will collapse in no time. Learn to follow instruction first. But if you want to actually learn, you do that on your own time. Class dismissed.
Yes, that is correct Frank! Disconnect the connector from the sensor and measure the voltage on the signal wire going back to the PCM. If the voltage is high, this would be a pull-down design and if the voltage is low, this would be a pull-up design. You could do a test of the circuit back to the PCM by using a test light. If the signal voltage is high, you could pull the circuit down by having a test light connected to ground. You could monitor the scan tool PID for a response. If the signal voltage is low, you can pull the circuit voltage up by having a test light connected to B+. Again, you can monitor the scan tool PID for a response.
I have problem in my car " Honda City 2006" , i took my car to the Honda company, they told me that i should change the crank sensor + 4 Plug Coil+ all spark plug + body valve control, i have question: if i change the crank sensor , the coils and the spark plug without changing the body valve control, the problem can come back again?
Hi Rabih. It's hard to say that changing all of those things will fix your problem. Who's to say they have the diagnostics right. And why would you say that all of the other stuff is probably bad, basing it on their diagnostics, yet you don't want to change the body valve control assuming that it may be good. There's probably a misinterpretation in the English as I don't know what a body valve control is? What does it control Rabih?
I should have read all the comments BEFORE I posted my own- I did just the reverse. First, Rahib's "body valve" is probably a "valve body" in the transmission. But assuming the shop that told him to replace that, along with some ignition parts is competent and honest, then he probably has two unrelated problems, a secondary ignition problem and a shifting problem. But putting in four coils and four plugs AND a crank sensor sounds to me like they are throwing a bunch of parts at it hoping to get lucky. But any Trans problem would be a separate issue. My Chrysler Sebring has what you are calling a valve body, but Chrysler calls it a "solenoid pack". Yep, it has three electric solenoids (extremely delicate internal parts in that thing) and it does the shifting (or at least is involved). Incidentally, on my Chrysler the pos voltage to the Crank sensor is an 8 volt supply. Next, this video and part 4 are NOT too long, in my personal opinion. Paul Danner and Schrodinger also say that sometimes, that maybe their video's are too long. I say ABSOLUTELY NOT! They are what they are, and however much time it takes to explain something down to whatever level of detail is needed, is how long it takes. I say DON'T try to shorten something just to shorten it. If splitting something in two is easier or makes sense, then that's fine. But don't think that they are too long (I haven't watched any of your others yet-If I think they are too long I'll let you know). To: Steve Rob -- We have many, many shops here who don't know what they are doing, probably the majority. In the story below that I mentioned about my ignition coil saga, I first took it to a shop nearby that I was told had a good rep. After 4 days I called to see what they had discovered, and they still didn't know what was wrong. Very long story very short, turns out they didn't even have an ignition scope!!!!! How can you run a garage without an ignition scope? The lesson I learned was to always take my car to the same people I've used for thirty years, even though the tow can be very expensive (but not as expensive as having my car sit at a shop for 4 days that can't even look at a secondary ignition pattern!! Thanks everybody.
Hi Douglas, yes, lots of comments on most of the videos on this channel. I suspected that with Rahib, he has a valve body issue inside the transmission. And you're right that parts shouldn't be thrown at a car in the hopes that it fixes it. You see what I mean Douglas; another perfect example of where a system is not known, and then throw parts at it. And it's not just the DIY guy. It's everywhere, even at dealerships and garages. But to learn systems, takes time, a special breed of people, (yes, it's not for everybody) and the character to want to do a good job. As for the length of the videos, I've debated with this issue for months. I know that a lot of viewers have ADS with short attention spans. How can I create a video that's entertaining and talk about complicated electronic systems in about three minutes? Sure, I can create a three minute video, but what will you learn? Oh I don't, maybe how to change an air filter, how to do an oil change, how to change your spark plugs, (oh, that would be one plug), not time for the others. So, I said to myself, that my niche of people out there would be a small breed, just like on Matt's channel where he talks about that 2%. So, I've decided to just talk enough in detail to cover a system fully and if one is interested in how electrics work, they'll watch. Otherwise, they won't and that's fine with me too. So, I'm not concerned about the length of the videos anymore. And how can a shop run a garage without an ignition scope. Well Douglas, that's the norm. I've been out there to several shops in our area just to see what they got. I went out to different places acting as I was looking for a new shop to repair my vehicles. Not that these places were going to work on my stuff! Anyway, I went to six and all of them didn't have a scope and didn't feel like it was necessary. Why we can read the codes and it will tell us what we need to do? So, there you go, that's a lot of the thinking in garages. I'm not saying that there aren't good garages out there, and there are, but you'll have to really look to find a good one. Take care Douglas and I appreciate your thoughts and for dropping by. Terry
yes, this is possible. You could use a hall-effect sensor along with a microcontroller and an lcd display along with some programming. Here is one example of that. The only difference is that this guy is using a reed switch. The effect would be same with the hall-effect as the processor is counting pulses. www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Bike-Speedometer/
I am sorry for my late reply, the part name it is from the company, i want post photo to show but i couldnt, here the part number 27200-PWR-013 for my honda city 2006, maybe can help to know what is the part which i mean.. and thanks a lot for help
I disconnected crankshaft position sensor and checked ECU side wires with multimeter. All 3 wires read GROUND (0V) from battery positive lead. So it means my ECU is bad? It's diesel so engine still runs, but very rough idle.
hooperwille Not sure what you're asking hoopervwille. It sounds like you've already diagnosed it. But more than likely, your ECU is not bad. You're saying that you've got 0V on all three wires measured from battery positive. Why not use the battery negative as your reference? What is the supply voltage supposed to be for the crank sensor? B+, 5VDC, etc. If you don't have that as you're saying, you may want to check another sensor to see if you have the supply voltage there. And if you don't, then maybe you have a shorted sensor pulling the voltage down, a supply voltage shorted to ground, etc. But if you're sure the ECU is bad, then it sounds like you need to change it out.
stuzman52 Sorry, I think I mixed up my previous statement. All 3 wires read 0V measuring from battery negative terminal and -12V from positive lead so it means they're direct path to ground. I have this intermittent situation when you start the car cold it works fine couple minutes then starts to idle rough. I confirmed this is Crankshaft sensor by disconnecting it before rough idle and symptoms are the same. After watching Your video I see that at least 1 wire should have some positive voltage for the sensor to work correctly. I think I need to probe into wires before starting the car and check voltages when all is working good and wait to see what happens.
hooperwille On the hall-effect sensor, you will have three wires as you mentioned. A ground, the B+ and the signal. And you say there is 0V on all three wires. Did you disconnect the connector to see if the B+ comes up? If you don't have the supply voltage and ground, then the signal is not going to work either. You may want to check for that. And not sure how the engine would run without the crank sensor, unless it's using the cam sensor for piston location.
stuzman52 Replaced crankshaft position sensor and all is good now. I found that heat was the problem. When original sensor got warm it stopped sending signal and car started shaking at idle. When I took sensor out and left 5 minutes in the air to cool and then put it again, car worked fine again for a few minutes until sensor heated again and shaking repeated. As I said since its diesel, you can start it even without CPS but wiring is really odd. I rechecked voltages with sensor removed and supply voltage is only 0.15V. Not sure how it can operate at such low voltage.
hooperwille Not sure either how it operates at that low voltage. But you've got it fixed now and thanks for the feedback which can help others out there.
The permanent magnet with its magnetic field interacts with the magnetic field of the current passing through the hall element. This interaction causes the free electrons of the semiconductor hall element to move to one side of the hall element. Electrons leaving one side of the hall element leaves a more positive voltage and where the electrons moves to creates a more negative voltage. The voltage measured across the element is called the hall voltage which is then amplified to the point of driving an output transistor. Hope that helps!
Sure... You'll have to connect up the voltage supply for the sensor as indicated from the automotive wiring diagram. While monitoring the output signal with a voltmeter, pass a piece of metal such as a piece of steel in front of the sensor. You should see the voltage go up or down as the metal is passed by the sensor.
Wow - a transistor is basically 2 diodes that share one end so is it possible to test the transistor with a DMM on diode check or does it have to be isolated to check . I guess the main check is testing the crank sensor first but if you do not have voltage and do not know if its a npn or pnp is when you have to see if the wire and transistor is operating correctly. For the last 5 years, week after week I have had hundreds of customers at my friends parts store where I help out buying electronic parts that can not be returned put on their cars where maybe 1 in 10 fix their problems. Plenty of these customers are garages phoning in the orders on the chance the code they just read will fix the condition. I do not believe any garage except OEM dealerships within a 10 mile radius of our parts store could understand what scannerdanner is teaching. It is sad to see a lic. garage in the same plaza as us does not know how to use an oscilloscope - I asked them why and their response was if we need to use one we just farm out the job to the dealership and charge the customer. This garage is slowly loosing its customers to the dealerships and plenty more that refuse to keep up to the training needed. Its amazing how different our two country's are when it comes to entrepreneurship - I have asked the local garage owners and it seems there are not mobile diagnostic techs driving around like scannerdanner does to do what they do not know how to do. Speechless!!.
Hi Steve. Yes, you can think of the transistor as two diodes back to back. But that doesn't mean that you can take two diodes, wire them together and now you've got a transistor. I'm sure you already know that. Yes, you can check a transistor with the diode function and the test would should up like a diode check. There would be six checks. One is between the emitter and base where you get your voltage drop, switch the leads, now it's open. Same olds true between the base and collector. Between the emitter and collector, it should be high both ways. Sometimes you'll get a voltage reading and a high reading between the emitter and collector and this is normal too, depending on the power rating of the transistor. Since you know the polarities needed to turn on say the emitter-base junction, you can determine the type of transistor, NPN or PNP. Most checks that I do on transistors would be done while their is circuit voltage on them, and from that you can usually determine if the transistor is bad or if there is a biasing circuit problem. Then you can make resistance checks. And I would try in the circuit first to see if the resistance readings are what I expect. Usually, when a junction opens or shorts, (shorts more between emitter and collector), you'll know it even in the circuit. All of this now is relating to where you can get access to the component(s) like other equipment and the crank sensor wouldn't really apply here. The only thing that you can check with voltage on this sensor is the voltage drop across the emitter and collector. And when we look at the signal output voltage from the sensor, that's exactly what we're doing, the voltage across the EC junction. I realize that a lot of people out there don't have scopes, but you can check a crank sensor with a DVOM and you don't need to know whether the transistor is NPN or PNP. I'll have to show the procedure for that probably in the last video of this series for the DIY. Or maybe, I can talk you into it Steve, (smiling). Now let's say the car cranks, but doesn't start and you suspect the crank sensor. First, I would see if there is a DC voltage coming out of the sensor while the engine is being turned over. If you have a min/max feature on the voltmeter, you can take advantage of that to see what your min and max values are. And if you don't have that feature, doesn't matter. Just see that you're getting a voltage out of the signal wire. If you don't, check the supply voltage to the sensor. If you got the supply voltage to the sensor and no signal, then it's time to go to the sensor itself or there could be an issue with the signal wire, connector, etc. If you want to see the slow voltage transitions, you can turn the crank slowly and watch the signal voltage go to peak voltage and then to zero voltage. This way you'll know that the sensor is pulling the voltage all the way to ground or to the source voltage. This would eliminate any resistance issues in the sensor itself and the wiring. Of course, keep in mind that sensors can fail in a hot soak condition and may just check fine if they're not heated enough. When you talk about garages and dealerships, the same is true everywhere, even in the US. There are good garages out there and there are some that use a scanner and voltmeter for their electrical tools. Heck, some even just use a code reader. I'll give you an example. A few years ago, when I was getting new tires, I was talking to two mechanics in the garage about fuel injectors. Now keep in mind that both of these guys were ASE certified. I played dumb and asked them how does a fuel injector work and how would you check one. Neither one could tell me how they worked, and their way of checking a fuel injector to confirm that it was okay was by listening to it with a screwdriver. So, it's everywhere Steve. By the way, I know this video got a little long, but I wanted to cover everything about the crank sensor, how it works, testing it with a test light, etc. and was wondering what your thoughts were about it. If you think it was way too much info or too long, I'll have to cut back on the info in the future videos. Take care Steve!
Well Terry you can never have too much HP and of course you can never have too many tools and toys but the most expensive and powerful tool in such short supply is knowledge , I would say its impossible to have too much information. It all comes down to what you do with it. There is nobody else on TH-cam spending the time but you and not cutting corners doing this. I quite enjoy the series but some people just like grits by themselves where I just crave for the fat back with molasses - fried turnip greens and onion with biscuits and whole heaping of sausage gravy too. LOL
Steve Rob LOL, you're a crazy guy Steve and that's a good metaphor. I was seriously thinking about deleting this video and breaking it up into two parts, but like you said, if people want to know the stuff, they'll watch it. If not, they won't. I've got one more "teaching" video to do with the ICM and PCM, but to save time on the wiring diagram, I'll draw that one up in AutoCAD and go from there. I could have had all the drawings already drawn, but I felt that to present a complete drawing would overwhelm some people and they might get distracted. So, I figured if I draw the diagrams, step-by-step, it would be easier for people to follow along. Anyway, I'm going to try a complete drawing next to save time and we'll see how that works out. Because the last thing I want to do is waste people's time. Take care Steve and I appreciate your comments.
thanks terry. can,t get any better than this.i have 2Qs.first .how can I know if it is PULL UP or PULL DOWN circuit.second can I do this test on cam senssor
+ali batebi For the NPN type transistor, the ground side of the circuit is being switched. For the PNP transistor, you'll be switching the positive side. Sometimes you'll see pull-up and pull-down referred to as sinking and sourcing respectively. Most of the time you'll find these terms used in an industrial environment. Yes, you can use this on cam sensors also. To verify pull-up or pull-down design, unplug the connector to the sensor. Then check the signal voltage. If the voltage is positive, it's a pull-down design. If it's near ground voltage, then it's a pull-up design. Do a search on 'scannerdanner' as he has a lot of examples of pull-down and pull-up examples of where he shows how to check these types of designs on crank and cam sensors.
An excellent video. I've removed the crankshaft sensor from my car and I need to test it. I can use a bench supply to provide the +12V and a 5V reference to the signal/reference pin. The crankshaft sensor with pin numbers (left to right): 1, 2, 3. If I connect a multimeter between pins 2 (negative lead) and 3 (positive lead), I measure about 7M ohms. Does that sound about right? This diagram shows what I have: www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e46-316i-lim/wiring-functional-info/power-train/engine-control-me9/engine-speed-recording/crankshaft-sensor/hCVEZvo Would this mean that pin 1 is +12V, pin2 is the referance/signal, and pin 3 is ground? Is this a pull-down type sensor and are my assumptions about the pins correct? Thanks.
Looking at the diagram, pin 1 would be your +12V, pin 2 would be the signal, which would be a square wave signal and would be either 12VDC or 5VDC depending on your car, and pin 3 would be ground. You are correct with your assumption. If you look at the diagram, you can see that pin 2 of the CKP sensor is going to a NPN transistor inside the PCM. So, when the crank signal goes low, and when the base signal on the transistor is high, the transistor will turn on. Here is a link that may help further. www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/BMW-3-Series-E46/106-FUEL-Camshaft_Sensor_Testing/106-FUEL-Camshaft_Sensor_Testing.htm
@@stuzman52 Thanks for getting back to me. Much appreciated. Thanks for the link - that's a very good article. I measured the voltages on Pins 1, 2 and 3 on the connector (no sensor connected), with the ignition on and got the following: +11.8V between Pins 1 and 3 +10.8V between Pins 2 and 3 That tells me that Pin 2 as the signal/reference pin is not +5V but close to +12V. When I turn the ignition off, all the pins register 0V. I connected a crankshaft sensor to the car, brought a large spanner next to it and nothing happened to the voltage on Pin 2 i.e. the +10.8V stayed fixed. From what I read online, bringing a metal object next to the sensor should cause that voltage to drop to 0V. That could be pointing to a bad crankshaft sensor or something else is going on.
How Hilarious When checking voltages on the sensor, it’s best to check them with the connector installed. This way the signal voltage will get pulled up or down depending on where the reluctor on the harmonic balancer is located in relation to the sensor.. With the ignition in the on position, slowly turn the engine and you should see the signal voltage go up and down.
@@stuzman52 Thanks for the reply. Is the method of removing the sensor and bringing a metal object to it not ikely to work i.e. it must have the reluctor go by it?
How Hilarious with the sensor removed, a piece of metal should activate it. Not sure why it’s not working for you. Although turning the engine by hand should activate the sensor, keep in mind that this isn’t a 100% conclusive test. The sensor signal could drop out while the engine is running. An oscilloscope would make the call if the sensor is working correctly. A voltmeter is too slow to see dropouts. Oh, and this sensor would be a pull down design.
I am sorry for my late reply, the part name it is from the company, i want post photo to show but i couldnt, here the part number 27200-PWR-013 for my honda city 2006, maybe can help to know what is the part which i mean.. and thanks a lot for help
Hi Rabih. The part number indicates that it's a valve body with three linear solenoids on it. My guess is that these solenoids are use for the shifting of the gears using pulse width modulation since they are linear solenoids. That would be located inside of the transmission.
Stuzman has now removed the rust from my brain on the real operation of these sensors. This plus Scanner Danners explanations has made me an expert. Thanks for this video
You're quite welcome Kalinda!
This is the best I've seen on how to explain how the crankshaft position sensor works you should make more videos of how the other sensors work that would be great
pallo Thank you very much pallo!
Hi Stusman, I tried learn through many videos which has animation and high level presentation material but I couldn't able to understand. You made me well understand of the internal components of the hall effect sensor of the automotive, pull down and pull up circuit and its function. I am so thankful for your video. Please update many videos as your are a good teacher with well knowledge of the subject.
Thank you sselvam G for the kind words and glad to hear that you found the video helpful!
Terry, I have been a long.time follower but every time I rewatch you or Matt or Scannerdanner everything starts to fall into place. I am teaching myself and your explanations are excellent. I am a retired aircraft mechanic but am finding the automotive electrical side of automotive maintenance extremely interesting and I am doing everything to put it all together and learn the systems. But you are so correct when you say you need to know how something works before you can fix it. Thanks much Artie 👍👍👍
Thank you Artie for the comment and Matt does a great explanation with his electrical tutorials on his TH-cam channel and paid channel. I've found over the years, that if you have an interest in learning a topic, it will all fall in place, but may seem intimidating in the beginning. Don't give up because learning new stuff takes time, but when it all clicks in place, it's a really great feeling. I get a great feeling when I'm explaining a topic to someone and I can see when the light bulb goes off in their head and then they get excited about understanding the subject. Thanks again Artie for the comment and if there is a topic or something that you want to know more about, let me know. Have a great weekend coming up! Terry
@@stuzman52 Thank you for the support.👍
Excellent presentation! I've been in the electronics industry for most of my life and this is one of the simplest, clearest, direct presentations about Hall sensors that I've ever watched...Thanks for taking the time to make this presentation!
Victor Bigea Thank you very much Victor for the kind comment! 😀
Outstanding video, I wish my college professor would have explained transistors like you have. Would have saved me tons of time studying. Keep up the great work it's very appreciated.
+Fausto Gonzalez Glad to hear Fausto that the video was easy to understand. And always glad to help and thanks for the comment.
Best explanation. I was struggling to understand this concept. And you break it down so simple. The pull down process is all about pulling down to ground. Thank you
Thank you Jado and glad to hear the explanation was simple to understand! And you are exactly correctly that the pull-down process is switching a load to ground. When switching loads such as an ignition coil, the NPN transistor is placed in the ground side of the circuit and a PNP transistor is placed on the positive B+ side of the circuit.
Thank you for these videos. I was a tech for many years, and I was always amazed at how few people actually understood how everything works together. I was always too curious to not try to figure something out that was a mystery to me. Through the years, I was certified by all of the big three, as well as an ASE Master Tech.
You have a great tallent for explaining complicated systems easily. Great videos.
Leon
Thank you very much Leon, and quite a compliment coming from a person who's been a technician for many years. As you've already mentioned, not a lot of people out there want to know how things work, but it's the key to being a good troubleshooter. I believe that most people want to just change a part on an educated guess and hope for the best. Of course, you, I and others are a small bunch of people who are interested in the way things work and want to diagnose the system to find the problem. That's where the fun to me is. Glad you took the time to watch the video and for submitting a comment. Take care Leon and don't work too hard. Terry
Thank you so much this was by far the best explanation of pull up and pull down design circuits. I been doing bypass tests with test light before but your presentation puts new light to my future diagnostics. Thank you again sir.
ramon ruzic You're quite welcome Ramon and glad to hear that the video helped you to understand pull up and pull down circuits a little better. I noticed in quite a few of your videos that you use a test light for pull up and pull down circuits and it is quite acceptable to troubleshoot. You've also got some great videos on your channel for learning also. Keep up the good work Ramon! 👍👍
The more you look for a hysteresis effect in nature, the more you find it. But I haven't thought of it's application in electronics in many decades. Thanks for walking me into a room that I haven't visited in decades.
No problem Dave, glad to help and you're right about hysteresis being in nature. Take care Dave...
This really helped me understand everything I wanted to know about Hall sensors, and then some.
Glad to hear the video(s) helped out Italion. Happy holidays!
What makes this explanation different from all others I've seen, is that it COMBINES the mechanical and physical construction AND electronic and magnetic principles of a Hall Sensor WITH the way it works to generate the Crank Sensor output in automotive terms, and how the Sensor output signal and the computer digital Logic circuitry work together. and how the Engine computer (and/or Ignition computer) use the signal. THANK YOU for doing this. Very much appreciated.
I had a rough idea about how these items worked, but you have added a great deal of detail to my overall understanding. I knew the output of the CKP was a square or pulse wave, and vaguely understood the usage of the combined 3x/18x (for GM anyway) for Cam/Crank/Spark correlation.
The clarification of pull up/pull down principles and terminology helps me. Paul Danner uses those terms in every lesson and I was never exactly sure which meant which.
Just ran across your site tonight. I've heard Schrodinger (Matt) mention you several times. I look forward to viewing many of your other videos.
If you feel like it sometime, perhaps you could talk about the Hall sensor usage on Chryslers. I have a 1999 Sebring 2.5L Jxi convertible. There is not actually a magnet that is separate from the sensor. In other words, the sensor is not pointed at a magnet. The "windows" are on one of the rotating parts inside the bell housing. The sensor is cylindrical, pointing toward where the window / interruptor passes by, similar to a prox sensor. Perhaps the magnetic field is generated by the sensor, then reflected back toward it, when the solid portion of the "ring" goes by, but the magnetic flux just goes off into free space when the "open" space in the ring goes by?
In terms of failure mode of the CKP sensor on the Chrysler's (which is too damn often if you ask me); I've noticed that on old sensors that have been in place for many years, the Hall sensor becomes partially "magnetized". The sensor will pull a 6 inch metal rule to the end surface. Perhaps this residual magnetization near the sensing surface is what causes the sensor to no longer be functional? In other words, maybe the "window" portion of the Schmidt trigger does not see clear sharply defined edge transitions, so the "signal" the trigger is using is floating around in no man's land? I'm just speculating, but would be interested in your observations.
I'm an obsessive learner, and eternally curious, so not only do I want to advance my diagnostic skills to the level of always being able to identify which part is bad, but I ALSO am always curious in HOW it failed. In other words, what the exact Failure Mode of the part itself is.
Also, if you could post a clarification explaining HOW MUCH of the drawing you used of the circuit is INSIDE the Hall effect sensor case, and how much is OUTSIDE (typically). Is the Op-Amp inside the sensor? (I would think it would be, due to noise issues). Is the Schmidt inside the sensor casing, or is that typically inside the computer / ignition module?
If the failure of a Hall Effect sensor such as I mentioned above is not due to the gradual magnetization of the sensor, then it must be due to the failure of one of the semiconductor elements inside the sensor. I'm just wondering which of those two causes is most likely (if you know). These baby's can cost over a hundred dollars.
I had a failure on my car which I kind of narrowed down to either the CKP or the Cam sensor or the ignition coil. Turned out it was the coil. If I had a scope I could have seen it quickly, instead of the dozens of hours I spent solving it (actually I didn't solve it, had to eventually have it towed to my mechanic, and they solved it, and identified the coil was bad). But that was after I spent $100 for a new Crank Sensor. The coil pri and sec resistance were within spec, but it just didn't develop enough output. An internal short under stress, I assume.
Thanks for your work sir.
Holy moly Douglas...Looks like you really want to learn all about things and how they work. That's a good thing and I commend you on taking the time to learn about different devices and how they operate. Yes, I'm good friends with Matt and he's doing good things on his channel similar to what I'm doing. I guess the only difference is that I'll show the bolts and nuts aspects along with the diagnostics. And he likes to focus on the diagnostic part. We've even discussed electrical stuff on cars through private videos. He's a good fellow and you can learn a lot from him.
Yes, I'm familiar with Paul Danner and his channel and he does pretty good stuff too. I think a lot of his lectures is probably over a lot of people out there where a lot of assumption is that you probably already know this. Glad to hear that the pull-up and pull-down explanations that I gave was clear to you.
I'm not familiar with the crank sensors on Chrysler products, but since it's a Hall-Effect sensor, it shouldn't work any different from any others out there. Hall-Effect sensors will typically have three wires, one B+, a ground and the sensor output. I would assume that you have the same setup. Sorry, don't have any wiring diagrams to look at for your particular vehicle. Sorry Douglas as mentioned, not familiar with the Chrysler products.
Yes, it's always a good thing to find out why did the part fail. Sometimes that can be challenging as it may point back to design issues. I do elaborate on things that I find in the videos of what I believe caused the failure. And how to improve on the repairs so that we don't see it again. Well, at least for a long time afterwards.
As for what's outside and what's inside the Hall-Effect sensor, pretty much everything is inside. This will include the Hall-sensing element, op-amp, the Schmitt trigger and the output transistor. Most people don't talk about the internals of devices because you can't get to the inside anyway. But I think its a good thing to know at least what's going on inside the sensor instead of treating it like some magic 'black box'. As for the sensor becoming magnetized, I don't see that being a problem. But the sensor having a magnet means it could attract metallic shavings, etc. and this could disrupt the signal. A lot of times if you inspect the sensor and see shavings, a good cleaning to remove this debris could restore the crank sensor waveform. For the most part, I believe they fail due to the harsh conditions of the environment and heat. Heat is the number one failure of electronics.
And Douglas I commend you to spend several hours, (maybe days) on looking into your car repair when you had a coil failure. Although you didn't fix the problem, your diligence in trying to find the issue is enough to say that you have the character and desire to learn more about these systems. A scope would be a big plus when you're troubleshooting electronics. They will tell you yes or no if the electronics is working correctly. And then you can move on to some other system to verify its operation. In other words, it takes the guess work out of diagnostics. And I guess that you know now about coil primary and secondary specs is not an absolute to yes/no condition of the windings. A coil can have a shorted turn or two and an ohmmeter will never let you know. It will read fine. But when you push some current down the winding, the short will show up using a scope with an amp probe. Scopes nowadays are getting cheaper and cheaper and you may want to consider getting one when your budget allows it.
Excelente explicación de cómo son utilizados los NPN y PNP transistores , now I know about the pull up and down design .thank you Sir for sharing
Glad to hear that you liked the videos.
Hello Sir..
Thank you taking time in making this video. It explains in detail about Hall Effect Sensor working. I always wanted understand in depth about how the sensor works internally and how it's signal is read by the ECU. Now after going through your video I have very good understanding of the complete system. If you have time, my request you to make video on Ignition coil internal schematics along with how ECU is controlling it. Additional request you to please make some videos on Electric Vehicles as well.
Once again I sincerely thank you for putting efforts into making this video.
Thank you for the comment Srinivas and for watching the video. If I get some time, I'll try to do some follow-up videos. Have a great day!
Terry, these vids just keep getting better and better ! I love the way you explained the internal workings of the sensor's circuits and what they do. Like I read in one of your responses to, I think it was Douglas Lee, that understanding how these sensors and systems works eliminates the theory that there are these magical black boxes under the hood ! LOL ! Making these types of vids are really great !
+Billy R Thank you Billy; I appreciate it and glad you like the videos.
yes !
Yes, in reality the electrons flow from negative to positive and is called electron flow. In troubleshooting, some folks will mention conventional current flow which is from positive to negative. It really doesn't matter which way you want to look at it when troubleshooting. I tend to use conventional current flow when troubleshooting. When I'm analyzing transistors, etc. at the atomic level, it's easier to use electron flow. Hope that helps!
Yes, everything is reference to ground.
Yes, I guess you could say that. Think of it this way. On a battery there is a negative and positive post. The negative side has electrons and the positive side has electrons. The negative side just has MORE electrons and the positive side has LESS electrons thereby giving it a more positive charge on that side with respect to the negative post. Keep in mind that the positive post is still negative, but just less negative. The excess electrons on the negative side wants to get to the more positive side to stabilize. So, let this continue and the battery is dead because there are an equal number of electrons on each side. So, electrons having a negative charge will always flow to a more positive charge. And of course positive is a relative term meaning less electrons to what you're referencing it to. In our case, the negative post of the battery. Was all that clear as mud? :)
Thank You.
I might also surf around and see if I can find any more info on what is inside the Chrysler style Hall Effect Sensor. I'll let you know if I learn anything significant.
MAYBE there is a magnet "behind" the windows and vanes on my engine, but I did not think there was. I might be wrong. I'll look into that.
Thanks for all your replies. I look forward very much to looking at some of the other work you've put up.
Regarding the Sun scope.......I met "my" mechanic in about 1977, when I was driving a taxi. He ran a "speed" shop, and he built race cars and engines, along with doing regular retail mechanic work. He was, and is, a genius with engines and vehicles. He became known as a specialist in recurving distributors for perrformance, and also in tuning Holley carbs. In the racing community, that was a great skill, because it was difficult, and not many people could do it well.
I've taken every one of my cars to him ever since. Unfortunately, he has become seriously ill recently, and probably will not be returning to the business, although the shop where he has most recently worked has excellent people, so I still have a reliable resource for repairs that I can't do myself. But I think once I get my own Pico and AutoEngenuity or similar scanner, I'll be seriously dangerous!
He used his big Sun scope all day, every day. I still remember being amazed the first time I saw it. Beautiful. I hear that there are still a few kicking around, some in excellent condition, although most of the gas analyzers don't work anymore, and the parts are impossible to find, from what I hear. It's too bad that Snap bought them out.
I do understand the memory of digital scopes, but I wasn't thinking about it when I wrote my comment about why nobody uses the big Sun's anymore. I agree that a Pico with a nearly infinite memory is an awesome tool.
Thanks again. -Douglas
There you go Douglas...do a little research and see what you can find out. When you run across something, be sure to let me know. Curious minds like yours and mine need to know. If it's a hall-effect sensor, there's got to be a magnet somewhere, (all that I've seen are inside the sensor), but who knows maybe there's some crazy design of Chrysler's that's behind the interrupter.
And yes, when you get a scanner and scope, there won't be any stopping you at that point. You'll be light years ahead of most garages out there. In fact, Pico has come out with a new two and four channel scope that has just increased their memory, has isolated inputs, increased their input voltage to 200V and a few other features. Mmmmm, very nice...check it out here www.picoauto.com/vehicle-diagnostics-news.html
Thanks sir very good demonstration
Thank you very much Khan!
Solution; I think now, after reading your response below, that I very much misunderstood what you were saying in the video. I thought you were saying that with a crank sensor, that there would be a separate discrete magnet or magnetized area that would pass BY the sensor, activating it. I didn't realize you were saying there would be a magnet INSIDE the sensor [which is exactly what I was theorizing, but maybe didn't explain well].
I have confirmed after a couple hours of research tonight that yes, indeed, SOME (not sure if all) CPS have a magnet INSIDE the sensor, and that the actual "hall region" location (the semiconductor material that is the Hall sensor proper) is IN BETWEEN that magnet and the surface of the metal object that passes by the sensor (such as teeth on a flex plate or harmonic balancer). Also, that it IS the change in "reflected" flux, that the sensor see's. Maybe not "reflected", but as least "changed" by the introduction of ferrous material getting very close to the end of the sensor.
I read several articles focusing on the Chrysler sensor design, but after further reading realized it was typical.
The best technical article I found is here:
www.electronics-tutorials.ws/electromagnetism/hall-effect.html
SO, we're agreed!
Glad to get that one put to bed.
Glad to hear that you got it all figured out. Feels good to get something figured out doesn't it? Anyway, got to hurry to work so I'll have to look at the article later. Take care...
Que buena explicacion. Me recuerda a mi profesor de electronica Diamar Getz en Meridian Junior College 1984
¡Muchas gracias amigo mío y me alegra saber que le gustó el video!
Thanks a lot--I now understand what is going on in the sensor circuit and KNOW how to test it unlike other tutorials that emphasize memorization which leads back to forgetting. Do you know a good book where I can continue to study Automotive circuits in this detail? All of the automotive books I have never really expalin. By the way the video you had about EBCM lead me to remove my EBCM on my Lesabre open it up and solder the corroded points reintall the EBCM and now fo over a year no codes and no dash lights!
Hi Aaron! Glad to hear that you found the video helpful! Unfortunately, most automotive text books don't go into detail about how the individual circuits work. My best advice is to find books on electronics that will cover the details in how circuits work.
excellente explanation.
Thanks Paul for your comment.
Absolutely fantastic. Only one thing I would have done is do a example with physical sensors and conectors besides the drawn diagram
Yes, you're right and I've thought about that since I've done this video. Working on other videos now of showing theory and the practical side but not on sensors at the moment. Thanks for the comment!
Do you have any experience with Megsquirt
Sorry, I do not...
So where is this magnet placed exactly, Is it inside the sensor? which is being interrupted by a ferrous reluctor wheel, Or the reluctor wheel it self is maganetic, or it depends?
and how exactly does the reluctor wheel teeth effect the hall chip voltage?
and THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO EXPLAIN TO US.
The magnet is located 90 degrees across from the hall-effect sensor and is located within the sensor. As the teeth of a gear swings by the sensor, the magnetic flux from the magnet is disrupted which creates a voltage across the hall sensor. Hope that helps.
The confusion resulted from you saying that the interrupter ring blocks the magnetic field, which won't be plausible if the magnet and the hall chip where in one piece.
Also if the interrupter ring was external to the Hall sensor I will assume it will only alter the hall voltage and not erase it completely -e.i only dropping it below 2v or such-
also the excess electrons that will make the switching current for the transistor are as a result of the 5v regionally supplied to the hall chip right?
Sorry for asking some elaborate question and Thanks a lot again.
Good video. I have seen 2 wire Hall Effects also, I guess its an internal 12-5v regulator in those? Seems no difference in testing but can be confused for a VRS.
Thanks!
Hi SpelFocus. For those two wire sensors that you're referring to, those are called magneto-resistive type. These sensors are two wire and they produce a square wave signal like the hall-effect sensors, but it's based on the resistance change due to a magnetic field. On these type of sensors, the supply voltage and signal output wire are the same. In other words, the signal rides on top of the supply voltage. That's why there's only two wires on these. Thanks for your thoughts Spel...
thank you very very much
You're welcomed!
Wow excellent
Thank you gfly. If you like the detail, there's more to come in the later videos in this series.
Hey, I hope you and your family had a Great Christmas, and have a happy New Years. I had a question. Eric O just did a Vid on a Chevy 6.0L, I dont know if you had a chance to see the video yet. But it was a no start, no rpm signal, no spark or Injector Pulse. So... Of course next step was check the Crank Signal. He Scoped the Signal and got a squarewave that rised to 8.7v's to falled to 1.67v. He almost missed it, because (he saw a sqaurewave , lol). He replaced the sensor and it fixed the truck and now the signal was 12v to 0v. I think a Pull up design. Now I was wondering, is a Bad Sensor the only Possible cause for this problem , or could there be problems somewhere else in the circuit. Like a Bad Ground, Or ???.
+Dana Buss Hi Dana and the family is doing pretty good watching the Panthers and Falcons football game. For the most part, a crank signal is the most likely culprit. But as you've mentioned, the power and grounds should always be checked and if they're good and the output isn't up to snuff, then you'll change the sensor. And one of the key things to check is to make sure the signal will rise to the supply voltage and get pulled down to near 0V. Thanks for the question and you and your family have a happy New Year also.
O Im sorry, Its Cyril, LOL. My sister was over for the holidays and I sent you a message not knowing she was logged in. LOL. Thanks
+Dana Buss Hey Cyril..I was wondering how you were doing and hope the family is doing good. Also wishing you and Happy Holidays too. Still looking forward to some of those videos (smiling...). Take care Cyril.
I am having trouble getting my head around a grounded block somehow having a "+" plug that creates a path to the other leg of the transformer. If I think of it as an isolated circuit I am fine but it is all attached to a giant conductor that is connected directly to the battery ground. What am I not grasping?? I have been wrestling this for some time and the clarity of your videos makes me think you can solve my dilemma.
When you look at the transformer + and -, think of this that one side will be more positive or negative with respect to the other side. Let's say that you're looking at the + side at some specific time. At that very instant of time, the other side will be less positive or more negative than the other side, (both mean the same thing). Okay, let's follow some current out of the transformer using the negative side. Electrons leave the negative side, travels to the top of a plug, goes down the center electrode and jumps the gap. Now, the side electrode is connected to the engine block which has you've mentioned, is grounded back to the battery. The electrons couldn't carry less about this because the current started from the transformer and they want to get back home. So, the engine block is only used to carry the electrons to get over to the other plug, but this time the spark is going to come from the side electrode, jump to the center electrode leaving out of the top of the spark plug and returning back to the other side of the transformer. So, even though the block is grounded, the electrons don't care about it being at battery negative. The only thing they want to do is get back to where they started from which is the secondary side of the transformer. Electrons will always leave the source and their job is to get back to that source. So, even though the battery is a source too, the electrons to fire the plug didn't directly come from the battery. Think of the secondary side of the transformer as the source.
Hope all that makes sense David.
stuzman52 Got it . Many thanks. The block is a fat part of the conductor with only (1) + end, the transformer.
David Brink That's it David, perfect! Couldn't have said it better!!!!
Well done. Trying to digest latest ATS video; Honda Pilot CKP fail. BT explains that CKP trigger wheel bacame magnetized and is causing intermittent surge and stall. Very interesting case study. If you have a chance to watch it, would live to hear your thoughts.
I believe that Bernie Thompson is the most knowledgeable technician in automotive repair. Whenever he comes out with a video, I always watch them. And of course, his last video has a lot of interesting information in it. Going back to the days of when I serviced color TVs which had CRTs, picture tubes would become magnetized with the early generations. Of course, with the later generations of TVs, there was a degaussing circuit in them that automatically demagnetized the picture tube when the power switch was turned on. I made my own degaussing coil which was made up of several hundred turns of magnet wire wound into a circle about 12" in diameter. Bernie is correct that you always move the coil and slowly pull it out to lessen the effect of the magnetic field. The only difference that I would do is to have a switch on the coil. The procedure would be the same, slowly moving the coil over the teeth and at the same time moving the coil slowly outward. Once the coil has been pulled away from the teeth by several inches, turn the coil 90 degrees to the teeth and then turn off the switch. By turning the coil 90 degrees, the magnetic field will be at its weakness and would minimize any chance of remagnetizing the teeth. It was a great video for sure.
@@stuzman52: Thank you for reply. Your hall sensor video was top notch; you obviously love navigating the deepest rabbit holes. Coincidentally, i repair CRT monitors in old arcade machines, so I'm very familiar with degaussing as well. I love BT's videos; a man that navigates rabbit holes second to none. In BT"s latest video, he states that the trigger wheel became magnetized sufficiently to cause intermittent surge and stall; FACINATING. I've never heard of this before. Have you? I would think that the magetic field being emitted from the trigger wheel would need to be nearly equivalent to the field of the biasing magnet in the hall sensor to have an effect sufficient to cross a threshold in the Schmitt trigger. Yes? Adding to my confusion, the scope pattern of CKP ahead of SURGE events looks normal; only when vehicle dies do we see a square wave that pulled down only HALF WAY, which defies the rules of the Schmitt trigger. Bizarre. And wouldn't the biasing magnet in the hall sensor try to magnetize spots on trigger wheel every time the vehicle sits overnight? This case study is really intriguing, but a few dots did not connect for me. What's your take?
@@hightttech I've never heard of this before, but with the ground cable in the wrong long location, it would be quite feasible to see how the entire crankshaft and teeth would become magnetized. The magnetic field emanating from the trigger wheel wouldn't have to match the field strength of the magnet inside the sensor for the signal to be disrupted. Let's say that the magnet inside the sensor has the north pole pointing to the reluctor teeth. And when the reluctor teeth got magnetized, it was polarized with a south pole. The net effect of these two fields reacting would be less intensity, but the sensor could still erratically work. I believe this was the scenario with Bernie. If the teeth had been polarized with a north pole, these two fields would reinforce and the net effect would be stronger, possibly that the sensor would not even switch. This is just my thoughts and I don't know for sure. My thoughts are the individual pulse widths were changing. Bernie did show this by using the cursors on one pulse width throughout the waveform. As mentioned, I believe the pulse width on all the pulses were varying. One commenter mentioned about using the frequency function to show how the frequency would be varying. This is another way to confirm the widths were varying. Also, with two interactive fields, one from the sensor and the other from the teeth, the sensor would be having a delayed time of the transistor switching which we saw in the changing of the pulse width of the injectors. As for the transistor not switching when the engine slowing down, my thoughts are that the teeth are passing through a magnetic field from the sensor which gets disrupted by the teeth. Obviously, the sensor seemed to work somewhat okay when the engine was idling at it's normal speed. This is what causes the switching of the transistor; the disruption of the magnetic field from the sensor. As the engine slows down, the electronics in the sensor has more of an issue with the magnetic field from the teeth and the interaction of the magnetic field from the teeth. It's just that the schmitt trigger didn't see the threshold of voltage to make the final switch to ground. So, as the engine slowed down, there was more of an issue between the magnetic field of the teeth and the sensor. Keep in mind, these are just my thoughts, but I believe this is most likely what was happening in Bernie's video. Oh, why doesn't the magnet in the sensor magnetize the teeth? To some degree, it does, but the magnetism is so small that it's not going to effect the sensor because of the distance from the magnet to the teeth. Seems like you're doing some deep thoughts on the subject and that's a great thing, as I like to try and dissect issues also. Have a great day!
@@stuzman52: Thank you for your thoughts. Checking the frequency of the CKP definitely might expose inconsistencies. Cheers
@@hightttech You're welcome and have a great day!
Yes, I agree that heat and vibration are probably the failure mode for the CKP sensor.
The question about the Chrysler sensor was basically: how can the sensor work if it is not looking at a magnet? The "windows" and "blades" ride about .5 mm from the end of the sensor. But there is no magnet behind them. So, somehow, the sensor is reading some variation in magnetic flux, but I am theorizing that the flux has to be generated by the sensor itself, and then "reflected back". Any thoughts on that?
I'm surprised that you have also found shops without ignition scopes. I thought my experience was a fluke. SIX shops, and none had an ignition scope? Sheesh. Do you remember the HUGE Sun scopes back in the 70's, that had a blindingly bright CRT that was like 15 inches high? I think they must have used some kind of "xenon" or something to create the trace, they were so bright. It's amazing nobody uses those anymore. I wish I had one of THOSE babies!
For myself, yes, I will get a scope and a scanner when I have the money. My aspirations are a Picoscope and AutoEngenuity. I do have a traditional analog labscope=B+K 60 Meg 2 channel. I have not used it on my car yet, but am looking forward to getting a clamp for the secondary wires and seeing what they look like on the CRT. since it's the usual 8x10cm, I might not be able to look at six firings at once, but I can probably look at a couple at a time. I just found out Pico has a very basic scope for under $200, so that is encouraging.
Most of the stuff I've done Douglas has been with GM and Ford. But hall-effect sensors has to be sensing the magnetic field which is from a magnet. So, I guess the question would be, where is the magnet located? It has to be somewhere within the sensor. As for the magnetic field being redirected back is a new one for me. I've never heard of any such sensor. Tell you what Douglas, let me review some of Paul Danner's videos on Chryslers as it seems he put some videos up on crank sensors. And with his diagrams, I might be able to theorize something up for you.
Oh yes, I remember the Sun scopes very well. My dad was an automotive mechanic for 45 years and when I went to the shop to visit him, I can remember that big thing sitting in the corner. I really don't think they used the thing that much. Well, at least I never saw them using it when I visited. The reason they don't use them anymore is because of being analog. Let's say you saw a glitch on a waveform and you say to yourself, "I would like to go back and see that." Sorry, it's gone forever because those scopes and analog scopes today don't have any memory to store waveforms. Another reason is that they didn't have long time bases that scopes have today. And that's where you've got to be careful in picking out a scope. You also need to look at the record length to see how much data it can store. So, a scope with lots of memory is a good thing which means long time bases.
You can't go wrong with a Picoscope as that's the scope of all scopes. As you may know, I have a Picoscope with four channels. And Picoscope has lots of memory to give you those long time bases. In fact, I've got three other scopes and when I have an issue at work, (electrical engineer with automated industrial equipment), I'll bring it in to look at high speed communications signals on PLC's, bus channels, drive controllers, etc. If you want to see what some of the guys are doing out there with their PicoScopes, take a look at this channel www.autonerdz.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl.
If you buy your scope from them, you'll be getting a full subscription free to the other areas of 'secret stuff' known to those members. There you will learn how to analyze waveforms and from that you'll be making a diagnosis.
As for your scope that you've got, go ahead and play with it. You can still use it to look at signals, but keep in mind that you won't be able to save anything for future reference. But don't let that stop you, you can always learn from what you got. Take care Doug...
The fundamental of all modern electronics, the core, the real working principles is straight foreward. Ready?
The so called 7 logic gates.
You read that right. You can read it one more time. In fact is just two logic gates and the other 5 come from the first two. 1. And Gate. 2. Or Gate. Which translates and refers to, either series or parallel circuit. End of the story.
And this man is right. Most folks are strangely parts changers, even the experts. Mother nature designed us to learn quickly by means of copy catting. And it is a good thing otherwise the system will collapse in no time. Learn to follow instruction first. But if you want to actually learn, you do that on your own time. Class dismissed.
So basically, it is possible to determine if the HE crank sensor is pull-up design or a pull-down?
Yes, that is correct Frank! Disconnect the connector from the sensor and measure the voltage on the signal wire going back to the PCM. If the voltage is high, this would be a pull-down design and if the voltage is low, this would be a pull-up design. You could do a test of the circuit back to the PCM by using a test light. If the signal voltage is high, you could pull the circuit down by having a test light connected to ground. You could monitor the scan tool PID for a response. If the signal voltage is low, you can pull the circuit voltage up by having a test light connected to B+. Again, you can monitor the scan tool PID for a response.
@@stuzman52 Thank you very much!
I have problem in my car " Honda City 2006" , i took my car to the Honda company, they told me that i should change the crank sensor + 4 Plug Coil+ all spark plug + body valve control,
i have question: if i change the crank sensor , the coils and the spark plug without changing the body valve control, the problem can come back again?
Hi Rabih. It's hard to say that changing all of those things will fix your problem. Who's to say they have the diagnostics right. And why would you say that all of the other stuff is probably bad, basing it on their diagnostics, yet you don't want to change the body valve control assuming that it may be good. There's probably a misinterpretation in the English as I don't know what a body valve control is? What does it control Rabih?
Thanks a lot for your helo
good job👍
Thank you!
I should have read all the comments BEFORE I posted my own- I did just the reverse.
First, Rahib's "body valve" is probably a "valve body" in the transmission. But assuming the shop that told him to replace that, along with some ignition parts is competent and honest, then he probably has two unrelated problems, a secondary ignition problem and a shifting problem.
But putting in four coils and four plugs AND a crank sensor sounds to me like they are throwing a bunch of parts at it hoping to get lucky. But any Trans problem would be a separate issue.
My Chrysler Sebring has what you are calling a valve body, but Chrysler calls it a "solenoid pack". Yep, it has three electric solenoids (extremely delicate internal parts in that thing) and it does the shifting (or at least is involved).
Incidentally, on my Chrysler the pos voltage to the Crank sensor is an 8 volt supply.
Next, this video and part 4 are NOT too long, in my personal opinion. Paul Danner and Schrodinger also say that sometimes, that maybe their video's are too long. I say ABSOLUTELY NOT! They are what they are, and however much time it takes to explain something down to whatever level of detail is needed, is how long it takes. I say DON'T try to shorten something just to shorten it. If splitting something in two is easier or makes sense, then that's fine. But don't think that they are too long (I haven't watched any of your others yet-If I think they are too long I'll let you know).
To: Steve Rob -- We have many, many shops here who don't know what they are doing, probably the majority. In the story below that I mentioned about my ignition coil saga, I first took it to a shop nearby that I was told had a good rep. After 4 days I called to see what they had discovered, and they still didn't know what was wrong. Very long story very short, turns out they didn't even have an ignition scope!!!!! How can you run a garage without an ignition scope? The lesson I learned was to always take my car to the same people I've used for thirty years, even though the tow can be very expensive (but not as expensive as having my car sit at a shop for 4 days that can't even look at a secondary ignition pattern!!
Thanks everybody.
Hi Douglas, yes, lots of comments on most of the videos on this channel. I suspected that with Rahib, he has a valve body issue inside the transmission. And you're right that parts shouldn't be thrown at a car in the hopes that it fixes it. You see what I mean Douglas; another perfect example of where a system is not known, and then throw parts at it. And it's not just the DIY guy. It's everywhere, even at dealerships and garages. But to learn systems, takes time, a special breed of people, (yes, it's not for everybody) and the character to want to do a good job.
As for the length of the videos, I've debated with this issue for months. I know that a lot of viewers have ADS with short attention spans. How can I create a video that's entertaining and talk about complicated electronic systems in about three minutes? Sure, I can create a three minute video, but what will you learn? Oh I don't, maybe how to change an air filter, how to do an oil change, how to change your spark plugs, (oh, that would be one plug), not time for the others. So, I said to myself, that my niche of people out there would be a small breed, just like on Matt's channel where he talks about that 2%. So, I've decided to just talk enough in detail to cover a system fully and if one is interested in how electrics work, they'll watch. Otherwise, they won't and that's fine with me too. So, I'm not concerned about the length of the videos anymore.
And how can a shop run a garage without an ignition scope. Well Douglas, that's the norm. I've been out there to several shops in our area just to see what they got. I went out to different places acting as I was looking for a new shop to repair my vehicles. Not that these places were going to work on my stuff! Anyway, I went to six and all of them didn't have a scope and didn't feel like it was necessary. Why we can read the codes and it will tell us what we need to do? So, there you go, that's a lot of the thinking in garages. I'm not saying that there aren't good garages out there, and there are, but you'll have to really look to find a good one.
Take care Douglas and I appreciate your thoughts and for dropping by.
Terry
Hi. I want to use hall-effect sensor(magnetic) on a back wheel (bicycle) to measure the speed of the bicycle. Is it possible? THank you
yes, this is possible. You could use a hall-effect sensor along with a microcontroller and an lcd display along with some programming. Here is one example of that. The only difference is that this guy is using a reed switch. The effect would be same with the hall-effect as the processor is counting pulses. www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Bike-Speedometer/
I am sorry for my late reply, the part name it is from the company, i want post photo to show but i couldnt, here the part number 27200-PWR-013 for my honda city 2006, maybe can help to know what is the part which i mean.. and thanks a lot for help
I disconnected crankshaft position sensor and checked ECU side wires with multimeter. All 3 wires read GROUND (0V) from battery positive lead. So it means my ECU is bad? It's diesel so engine still runs, but very rough idle.
hooperwille Not sure what you're asking hoopervwille. It sounds like you've already diagnosed it. But more than likely, your ECU is not bad. You're saying that you've got 0V on all three wires measured from battery positive. Why not use the battery negative as your reference? What is the supply voltage supposed to be for the crank sensor? B+, 5VDC, etc. If you don't have that as you're saying, you may want to check another sensor to see if you have the supply voltage there. And if you don't, then maybe you have a shorted sensor pulling the voltage down, a supply voltage shorted to ground, etc. But if you're sure the ECU is bad, then it sounds like you need to change it out.
stuzman52 Sorry, I think I mixed up my previous statement. All 3 wires read 0V measuring from battery negative terminal and -12V from positive lead so it means they're direct path to ground. I have this intermittent situation when you start the car cold it works fine couple minutes then starts to idle rough. I confirmed this is Crankshaft sensor by disconnecting it before rough idle and symptoms are the same. After watching Your video I see that at least 1 wire should have some positive voltage for the sensor to work correctly. I think I need to probe into wires before starting the car and check voltages when all is working good and wait to see what happens.
hooperwille On the hall-effect sensor, you will have three wires as you mentioned. A ground, the B+ and the signal. And you say there is 0V on all three wires. Did you disconnect the connector to see if the B+ comes up? If you don't have the supply voltage and ground, then the signal is not going to work either. You may want to check for that. And not sure how the engine would run without the crank sensor, unless it's using the cam sensor for piston location.
stuzman52 Replaced crankshaft position sensor and all is good now. I found that heat was the problem. When original sensor got warm it stopped sending signal and car started shaking at idle. When I took sensor out and left 5 minutes in the air to cool and then put it again, car worked fine again for a few minutes until sensor heated again and shaking repeated.
As I said since its diesel, you can start it even without CPS but wiring is really odd. I rechecked voltages with sensor removed and supply voltage is only 0.15V. Not sure how it can operate at such low voltage.
hooperwille Not sure either how it operates at that low voltage. But you've got it fixed now and thanks for the feedback which can help others out there.
what is the use of permanent magnet in a hall effect crank shaft position sensor????
please reply
The permanent magnet with its magnetic field interacts with the magnetic field of the current passing through the hall element. This interaction causes the free electrons of the semiconductor hall element to move to one side of the hall element. Electrons leaving one side of the hall element leaves a more positive voltage and where the electrons moves to creates a more negative voltage. The voltage measured across the element is called the hall voltage which is then amplified to the point of driving an output transistor. Hope that helps!
Is there a way to bench test one of these sensors?
Sure... You'll have to connect up the voltage supply for the sensor as indicated from the automotive wiring diagram. While monitoring the output signal with a voltmeter, pass a piece of metal such as a piece of steel in front of the sensor. You should see the voltage go up or down as the metal is passed by the sensor.
Wow - a transistor is basically 2 diodes that share one end so is it possible to test the transistor with a DMM on diode check or does it have to be isolated to check . I guess the main check is testing the crank sensor first but if you do not have voltage and do not know if its a npn or pnp is when you have to see if the wire and transistor is operating correctly. For the last 5 years, week after week I have had hundreds of customers at my friends parts store where I help out buying electronic parts that can not be returned put on their cars where maybe 1 in 10 fix their problems. Plenty of these customers are garages phoning in the orders on the chance the code they just read will fix the condition. I do not believe any garage except OEM dealerships within a 10 mile radius of our parts store could understand what scannerdanner is teaching. It is sad to see a lic. garage in the same plaza as us does not know how to use an oscilloscope - I asked them why and their response was if we need to use one we just farm out the job to the dealership and charge the customer. This garage is slowly loosing its customers to the dealerships and plenty more that refuse to keep up to the training needed. Its amazing how different our two country's are when it comes to entrepreneurship - I have asked the local garage owners and it seems there are not mobile diagnostic techs driving around like scannerdanner does to do what they do not know how to do. Speechless!!.
Hi Steve. Yes, you can think of the transistor as two diodes back to back. But that doesn't mean that you can take two diodes, wire them together and now you've got a transistor. I'm sure you already know that. Yes, you can check a transistor with the diode function and the test would should up like a diode check. There would be six checks. One is between the emitter and base where you get your voltage drop, switch the leads, now it's open. Same olds true between the base and collector. Between the emitter and collector, it should be high both ways. Sometimes you'll get a voltage reading and a high reading between the emitter and collector and this is normal too, depending on the power rating of the transistor. Since you know the polarities needed to turn on say the emitter-base junction, you can determine the type of transistor, NPN or PNP. Most checks that I do on transistors would be done while their is circuit voltage on them, and from that you can usually determine if the transistor is bad or if there is a biasing circuit problem. Then you can make resistance checks. And I would try in the circuit first to see if the resistance readings are what I expect. Usually, when a junction opens or shorts, (shorts more between emitter and collector), you'll know it even in the circuit. All of this now is relating to where you can get access to the component(s) like other equipment and the crank sensor wouldn't really apply here. The only thing that you can check with voltage on this sensor is the voltage drop across the emitter and collector. And when we look at the signal output voltage from the sensor, that's exactly what we're doing, the voltage across the EC junction.
I realize that a lot of people out there don't have scopes, but you can check a crank sensor with a DVOM and you don't need to know whether the transistor is NPN or PNP. I'll have to show the procedure for that probably in the last video of this series for the DIY. Or maybe, I can talk you into it Steve, (smiling). Now let's say the car cranks, but doesn't start and you suspect the crank sensor. First, I would see if there is a DC voltage coming out of the sensor while the engine is being turned over. If you have a min/max feature on the voltmeter, you can take advantage of that to see what your min and max values are. And if you don't have that feature, doesn't matter. Just see that you're getting a voltage out of the signal wire. If you don't, check the supply voltage to the sensor. If you got the supply voltage to the sensor and no signal, then it's time to go to the sensor itself or there could be an issue with the signal wire, connector, etc. If you want to see the slow voltage transitions, you can turn the crank slowly and watch the signal voltage go to peak voltage and then to zero voltage. This way you'll know that the sensor is pulling the voltage all the way to ground or to the source voltage. This would eliminate any resistance issues in the sensor itself and the wiring. Of course, keep in mind that sensors can fail in a hot soak condition and may just check fine if they're not heated enough.
When you talk about garages and dealerships, the same is true everywhere, even in the US. There are good garages out there and there are some that use a scanner and voltmeter for their electrical tools. Heck, some even just use a code reader. I'll give you an example. A few years ago, when I was getting new tires, I was talking to two mechanics in the garage about fuel injectors. Now keep in mind that both of these guys were ASE certified. I played dumb and asked them how does a fuel injector work and how would you check one. Neither one could tell me how they worked, and their way of checking a fuel injector to confirm that it was okay was by listening to it with a screwdriver. So, it's everywhere Steve.
By the way, I know this video got a little long, but I wanted to cover everything about the crank sensor, how it works, testing it with a test light, etc. and was wondering what your thoughts were about it. If you think it was way too much info or too long, I'll have to cut back on the info in the future videos. Take care Steve!
Well Terry you can never have too much HP and of course you can never have too many tools and toys but the most expensive and powerful tool in such short supply is knowledge , I would say its impossible to have too much information. It all comes down to what you do with it. There is nobody else on TH-cam spending the time but you and not cutting corners doing this. I quite enjoy the series but some people just like grits by themselves where I just crave for the fat back with molasses - fried turnip greens and onion with biscuits and whole heaping of sausage gravy too. LOL
Steve Rob LOL, you're a crazy guy Steve and that's a good metaphor. I was seriously thinking about deleting this video and breaking it up into two parts, but like you said, if people want to know the stuff, they'll watch it. If not, they won't. I've got one more "teaching" video to do with the ICM and PCM, but to save time on the wiring diagram, I'll draw that one up in AutoCAD and go from there. I could have had all the drawings already drawn, but I felt that to present a complete drawing would overwhelm some people and they might get distracted. So, I figured if I draw the diagrams, step-by-step, it would be easier for people to follow along. Anyway, I'm going to try a complete drawing next to save time and we'll see how that works out. Because the last thing I want to do is waste people's time. Take care Steve and I appreciate your comments.
thanks terry. can,t get any better than this.i have 2Qs.first .how can I know if it is PULL UP or PULL DOWN circuit.second can I do this test on cam senssor
+ali batebi For the NPN type transistor, the ground side of the circuit is being switched. For the PNP transistor, you'll be switching the positive side. Sometimes you'll see pull-up and pull-down referred to as sinking and sourcing respectively. Most of the time you'll find these terms used in an industrial environment. Yes, you can use this on cam sensors also. To verify pull-up or pull-down design, unplug the connector to the sensor. Then check the signal voltage. If the voltage is positive, it's a pull-down design. If it's near ground voltage, then it's a pull-up design. Do a search on 'scannerdanner' as he has a lot of examples of pull-down and pull-up examples of where he shows how to check these types of designs on crank and cam sensors.
Honda City or Jazz Transmission Triple Linear Solenoid 27200-PWR-013
I need help with my car
An excellent video. I've removed the crankshaft sensor from my car and I need to test it. I can use a bench supply to provide the +12V and a 5V reference to the signal/reference pin.
The crankshaft sensor with pin numbers (left to right): 1, 2, 3. If I connect a multimeter between pins 2 (negative lead) and 3 (positive lead), I measure about 7M ohms. Does that sound about right?
This diagram shows what I have: www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e46-316i-lim/wiring-functional-info/power-train/engine-control-me9/engine-speed-recording/crankshaft-sensor/hCVEZvo
Would this mean that pin 1 is +12V, pin2 is the referance/signal, and pin 3 is ground? Is this a pull-down type sensor and are my assumptions about the pins correct?
Thanks.
Looking at the diagram, pin 1 would be your +12V, pin 2 would be the signal, which would be a square wave signal and would be either 12VDC or 5VDC depending on your car, and pin 3 would be ground. You are correct with your assumption. If you look at the diagram, you can see that pin 2 of the CKP sensor is going to a NPN transistor inside the PCM. So, when the crank signal goes low, and when the base signal on the transistor is high, the transistor will turn on. Here is a link that may help further. www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/BMW-3-Series-E46/106-FUEL-Camshaft_Sensor_Testing/106-FUEL-Camshaft_Sensor_Testing.htm
@@stuzman52 Thanks for getting back to me. Much appreciated. Thanks for the link - that's a very good article.
I measured the voltages on Pins 1, 2 and 3 on the connector (no sensor connected), with the ignition on and got the following:
+11.8V between Pins 1 and 3
+10.8V between Pins 2 and 3
That tells me that Pin 2 as the signal/reference pin is not +5V but close to +12V. When I turn the ignition off, all the pins register 0V.
I connected a crankshaft sensor to the car, brought a large spanner next to it and nothing happened to the voltage on Pin 2 i.e. the +10.8V stayed fixed. From what I read online, bringing a metal object next to the sensor should cause that voltage to drop to 0V. That could be pointing to a bad crankshaft sensor or something else is going on.
How Hilarious When checking voltages on the sensor, it’s best to check them with the connector installed. This way the signal voltage will get pulled up or down depending on where the reluctor on the harmonic balancer is located in relation to the sensor.. With the ignition in the on position, slowly turn the engine and you should see the signal voltage go up and down.
@@stuzman52 Thanks for the reply. Is the method of removing the sensor and bringing a metal object to it not ikely to work i.e. it must have the reluctor go by it?
How Hilarious with the sensor removed, a piece of metal should activate it. Not sure why it’s not working for you. Although turning the engine by hand should activate the sensor, keep in mind that this isn’t a 100% conclusive test. The sensor signal could drop out while the engine is running. An oscilloscope would make the call if the sensor is working correctly. A voltmeter is too slow to see dropouts. Oh, and this sensor would be a pull down design.
Thanks a lot for your helo
I am sorry for my late reply, the part name it is from the company, i want post photo to show but i couldnt, here the part number 27200-PWR-013 for my honda city 2006, maybe can help to know what is the part which i mean.. and thanks a lot for help
Hi Rabih. The part number indicates that it's a valve body with three linear solenoids on it. My guess is that these solenoids are use for the shifting of the gears using pulse width modulation since they are linear solenoids. That would be located inside of the transmission.
Honda City or Jazz Transmission Triple Linear Solenoid 27200-PWR-013