Capacitors have different characteristics / capacity at different frequencies. That was the most likely cause for the different readings I was having at 100 kHz. I'm about to release a tutorial that covers this soon.
Thank you for your careful attention to detail, your humility and a well produced video. You are an excellent reviewer. I have been searching for a good new or used but inexpensive LCR meter. I have watched several reviews on LCR meters and your video was very helpful in my decision making process. I was impressed with the 5308 until 39:22 where I saw the drastic drop from 10uf to 2.55uf @100 KHZ while ESR was compared to the Atlas. Xc for 10uf @100KHz= 0.159 ohms - a large load on the test signal. Perhaps the test signal driver is overloaded. I noted that as test frequency was increased, test signal drive level decreased as your scope showed and apparent capacitor value dropped - seems normal. I have no quarrel with the 100KHz test signal but perhaps more attention should have been paid to test signal drive capacity. I would be interested in knowing what the battery current draw is while measuring 10uf@100KHz. I chose a BK 879B which Dave Jones - eevblog reviewed.
"But what the device should do is simply have a graphical display and sweep across the full frequency range and plot is as a graph." - Good point, I'm looking into getting hold of a device that might have this capability once in the US.
In home audio tuning you find that caps can behave wildly over a wide range of freq. Often you might try 5 or 6 different brands of cap's or materials to tun the audio response. Sometimes we use a "composite" cap setup where we will take a film cap of 20% to 30% of the electrolytic cap's value. When the freq. get's above the lytic caps comfort zone the signal will automatically choose a different path and will go to the film cap. I think the above reading reflect what we see with audio freq. in lytic caps. Electrlytic caps are very freq. dependant in terms of charteristics.
Hello Tom, thanks very much for your support and comments, they certainly are appreciated. I've made a not about the BK 279b and will add it to the list. Cheers, Martin.
I just had one of these meters delivered via amazon. It was advertised with the power adapter but supplied without. I called aidetek and the woman on the phone said they are not supplied any longer with the psu. She also said a number of users had connected to an external supply and damaged their meters. I was told "The manufacturer does not recommend the use of any external supply" aidetek said they would refund $10 to compensate me for the power adapter. Not what I really wanted but better th
Jesper, That's fine, there will always be times when I'm "flying by the seat of my pants", especially with kit that is new to me. I cater for the amateur / hobbyist / enthusiast and for the most part I think there is value in these videos even if it means I'm learning along the way. But...I appreciate you posting your point of view. Cheers, Martin.
I like this ,its so much out of your range . Its a capacitive reactance meter . Xc. similar thing to ESR but in AC circuits . Now please send it to me i can review it properly :)
I think you did a good job bringing these questions to light. But you almost answered your own question @ 12:05, regarding the drop in cap value at higher frequency. I haven't read all the comments yet, so forgive me if this has been answered, but what you are dealing with Martin is Capacitive Reactance vs frequency.
As far as I know Peak ESR (like all these cheap meters) measures ESR and capacitance separately, while the Mastech measures the capacitance at the frequency you set to determine the ESR. The capacitors you use are not exactly designed to work at 100 kHz, they're not designed to be low ESR, so it's not surprising that at 100 kHz they're capacitance drops. A proper ESR test should be done with low esr capacitors, Panasonic FM, FR , Nichicon HM,HN,HZ .. United Chemi Con KZE, KY etc etc
A wonderful detailed video. I would love to see someone to add a HP 4274a to the comparison test to really see if it is worth the money . and space . Lol
As Jontoffy has said, a characterisation of the PSU problem would be of interest, particularly whether the nature of the problem is regulation, noise or a completely different issue. = = = Martin, Of interest, would you consider adding a serial number to your blogs? That would allow viewers to follow the sequence at a much later date. A letter after the number would allow you to also categorise your videos whilst allowing viewers to follow a sequence of tutorials, reviews etc. = = = Good show!
Have a look at my reply to @jonofly regarding the PSU. You make a very good point about indexing videos....as I did not start out doing this I left it (besides T4D's). I did however realise the value of this and did it form the start on my VBlogMag channel... To compensate I do have playlists (see channel home page) of the tutorials and reviews to group them together. Thanks for your input.
Martin, perhaps you could compare a BK 279b with the Mastech. The BK seems to be a nice meter with similar capabilities and in a similar price point. I appreciate your willingness to explore issues and equipment without being overly concerned about being criticized for not having all the answers. This is what I call “real-world” testing that hobbyist like myself tune into your channel for. THANKS, Tom
You mean BK 879b LCR meter? It now costs anywhere between €380 to €450 in the EU nowadays. The 880 iteration which measures up to 100Kz is twice that now. Mastech can still be got for around €250...
Capacitor value and inductance change with frecuency as does reactance. A cap can act as an inductor at certain frecuencies and inductors a cap at others.
I don't want to calculate now but at 100kHz it has to charge and discharge the capacitor 100,000 times a second so at 10uF it should be around 10A charge/discharge current.
+tuxontour nope . It doesnt charge the caps , that kind of measurement would suck up the battery real fast . It doesn't measure capacitance at all. It measures capacities reactance , that measurement is frequency dependent.
I have a power supply in the process of making, will buy a 7812 tomorrow for it to provide regulation. Also have a nice 10uF polyester foil cap to test with. It must be specified to at least 100kHz, as it was used in a anti theft unit and passed the full output current of the coil. Hopefully it will be here before end of the week.......
Indeed...but John of jwrelectro has already posted an interesting look inside the PSU...if time allows I will try the same....but at the moment I'm also working on building my own PSU and hope to gain some knowledge (and fun!) there. I don't have eight 1.2 NiMh batteries but I have just used my variable PSU to check...and at 9.6 volts (8 x1.2) the battery level is on the 2nd / last bar and it powers off with a low battery warning at around 8.5 volts...so I would say no... Thanks for your post!
i got one of these .although the meter its self is good i found that the cables to both the kelvin and smd probes were so short that they were almost unusable .this is rather silly in my opinion ..i have modified the rectangular connector by inserting 4x bnc connectors .then simply purchased two decent sets of gineric probes at 80 cm legnth .
Have you been able to determine the reason of the odd readings for some capacitors at 100KHz, like the ones you addressed during the review and at the end of the review ? Does the Atlas give you appropriate readings, (since its frequency is 100Khz) ? Despite the fair amount of features that device has, if we can't trust its readings, it rather defeat the purpose, doesn't it ?
The Atlas does two different tests. High freq for ESR and something else for capacitance. The Mastech does both at the freq specified and at that high frequency the cap is failing. That is a major flaw in the Atlas. It just goes to show, there's more to a cap working than ESR.
I can't agree more, but it sounds like a superb design project - well beyond me, but it doesn't stop me thinking about it - It would be interesting to know what a commercial item to characterise capacitors in this fashion would cost. It just sounds relatively doable by burning up a few brain cells rather than lots of dollar$. I'll have to have a wee think about that, but don't hold your breath . . . Picaxe, Arduino, Megamite or Rasberry P i
although if the peak actually measures at 100kHz I'm at a loss to explain the difference. It's interesting to note that this seems like an area that isn't well mapped out even by big manufacturers and large imprecision is simply the norm.
That's an absolutely beautiful sine wave, considering it's artificially generated from a DC supply. The circuitry in there would be good for use in a pure sine wave inverter.
another correction of myself :) they might measure at different voltages.. 250mV does seem rather low at 100kHz. since electrolytic capacitors are chemical that might matter a lot but I'm just speculating.
hi, excuse me but my low level of english does not allow you to understand, would you recommend this LCR or not? I would need to evaluate, esr of the capacitors to calculate the value of the inductances. I was looking for a quality instrument at a moderate price :)
I would also guess that the device capable of testing at different frequencies is the one best able to spot drop in capacitance over frequency. Seems fairly obvious :) But what the device should do is simply have a graphical display and sweep across the full frequency range and plot is as a graph. It could also sweep a voltage range.
couple of points more come to mind: you can test motor inductance with LCR meter. A good LCR meter might also test for saturation in iron core inductors. saturation is the max current where the iron inductance still remains. above that you just get aircore inductance. the mastech seems oversized for what it does and maybe it isn't all that good at what it does. and returning to a past general point; a costly multimeter (>150$) should do it all. oscillo, LCR, graphing. LCR meters shouldn't exist
Измерителем индуктивности можно фазировать трансформаторы и асинхронные трехфазные электродвигатели. У мне прибор по проще MLC500 вот th-cam.com/video/3agjTs3jh_I/w-d-xo.html
It seems to me better way to troubleshoot caps in circuit is with the atlas ESR 70 Plus. It's non polarized, works faster, doesn't show nonsense in case you leave in auto mode, is way smaller and takes less space on the table. If would be nice if you could test the mastech vs. PEAKTECH-2170 same mete but different brand, is smaller and perhaps does not have the same quirks as the mastech one.
To me it looks like Atlas is testing ESR @ 100 kHz, but not the capacitance. Maybe it using 100 or 1000 Hz for C? I believe that Mastech is correct at 100 kHz, at those frequencies it is normal that some capacitors are starting to loose capacitance and gain inductance.
Get yourself ESR Micro 4.1s meter and compared them? perhaps the stated specifications are not true on the ESR Micro 4.1s? The ESR Micro 4.1s meter is 2x cheaper than peak and is suppose to have better range then peak.
Jesper, I disagree with you. There is great value in the kind of issues Martin faces when dealing with kit in this value range with his experience level. These are real world issues a hobbyist faces every day when trying to make decisions in buying equipment. Instead of being a “party-pooper”, why not share your great knowledge with us. Perhaps commenting on what went wrong with some of the measurements, thus increasing the value of these videos and helping us all benefit from your comments.
hehe, it certainly looks guilty. two points to that, the precision is higher than the usual user would need I figure. and then it could be done per pennies. even though it's ridiculously overpriced they might lend you one for review.
Capacitors will never be spot-on of their rated value, if you want to do a proper review, another proper LCR should be brought into the comparison. Stop with all the "Few counts out" during capacitor comparison, you need a proper LCR to check the caps and DMMs dont count no matter how high precision it is and the peak ESR meter isn't the right one to compare for the MS5308 either
Honestly, I find no value in a "deep" video like this, as long as you don't know what you are talking about.. I'd recommend you to go back to your level of knowledge, save the videos about more advanced stuff until you've actually gained enough knowledge of this stuff. I hate being a party-pooper but I gotta tell you.
10 years later and your comment stood the test of time as being absolute nonsense. I got good info from the video AND the comments. Seems the thing you overlooked the most in your self righteous small head was the community portion of TH-cam. Next time, do better.
Thanks for your video and your interest in MASTECH products.
Capacitors have different characteristics / capacity at different frequencies. That was the most likely cause for the different readings I was having at 100 kHz. I'm about to release a tutorial that covers this soon.
I have an LCR meter I purchased back in the late 1980's; the Elenco 1801. For years I've used it at work. It's still fully operational & works great!
Thank you for your careful attention to detail, your humility and a well produced video. You are an excellent reviewer. I have been searching for a good new or used but inexpensive LCR meter. I have watched several reviews on LCR meters and your video was very helpful in my decision making process. I was impressed with the 5308 until 39:22 where I saw the drastic drop from 10uf to 2.55uf @100 KHZ while ESR was compared to the Atlas. Xc for 10uf @100KHz= 0.159 ohms - a large load on the test signal. Perhaps the test signal driver is overloaded. I noted that as test frequency was increased, test signal drive level decreased as your scope showed and apparent capacitor value dropped - seems normal. I have no quarrel with the 100KHz test signal but perhaps more attention should have been paid to test signal drive capacity. I would be interested in knowing what the battery current draw is while measuring 10uf@100KHz. I chose a BK 879B which Dave Jones - eevblog reviewed.
Brilliant idea...noted and I will get that together once settled in. Really appreciate your input...thanks!
Very well explained the different ways of measuring and these results also occur when using the DE-5000 meter under the different frequencies.
"But what the device should do is simply have a graphical display and sweep across the full frequency range and plot is as a graph." - Good point, I'm looking into getting hold of a device that might have this capability once in the US.
In home audio tuning you find that caps can behave wildly over a wide range of freq. Often you might try 5 or 6 different brands of cap's or materials to tun the audio response. Sometimes we use a "composite" cap setup where we will take a film cap of 20% to 30% of the electrolytic cap's value. When the freq. get's above the lytic caps comfort zone the signal will automatically choose a different path and will go to the film cap. I think the above reading reflect what we see with audio freq. in lytic caps. Electrlytic caps are very freq. dependant in terms of charteristics.
Hello Tom, thanks very much for your support and comments, they certainly are appreciated. I've made a not about the BK 279b and will add it to the list.
Cheers, Martin.
I just had one of these meters delivered via amazon. It was advertised with the power adapter but supplied without.
I called aidetek and the woman on the phone said they are not supplied any longer with the psu. She also said a number of users had connected to an external supply and damaged their meters. I was told "The manufacturer does not recommend the use of any external supply" aidetek said they would refund $10 to compensate me for the power adapter. Not what I really wanted but better th
Jesper,
That's fine, there will always be times when I'm "flying by the seat of my pants", especially with kit that is new to me. I cater for the amateur / hobbyist / enthusiast and for the most part I think there is value in these videos even if it means I'm learning along the way.
But...I appreciate you posting your point of view.
Cheers, Martin.
Thanks, handy input, I appreciate the feedback. Cheers,
Martin.
I like this ,its so much out of your range . Its a capacitive reactance meter . Xc. similar thing to ESR but in AC circuits . Now please send it to me i can review it properly :)
Thanks for the input Dennis...noted.
I think you did a good job bringing these questions to light. But you almost answered your own question @ 12:05, regarding the drop in cap value at higher frequency.
I haven't read all the comments yet, so forgive me if this has been answered, but what you are dealing with Martin is Capacitive Reactance vs frequency.
As far as I know Peak ESR (like all these cheap meters) measures ESR and capacitance separately, while the Mastech measures the capacitance at the frequency you set to determine the ESR.
The capacitors you use are not exactly designed to work at 100 kHz, they're not designed to be low ESR, so it's not surprising that at 100 kHz they're capacitance drops.
A proper ESR test should be done with low esr capacitors, Panasonic FM, FR , Nichicon HM,HN,HZ .. United Chemi Con KZE, KY etc etc
Mate you are the first person , who is shortening new bought capacitors :) Anyway nice video .
A wonderful detailed video. I would love to see someone to add a HP 4274a to the comparison test to really see if it is worth the money . and space . Lol
It does do ESR in circuit as I recall but readings not as accurate as out of circuit testing.
As Jontoffy has said, a characterisation of the PSU problem would be of interest, particularly whether the nature of the problem is regulation, noise or a completely different issue.
= = =
Martin, Of interest, would you consider adding a serial number to your blogs? That would allow viewers to follow the sequence at a much later date. A letter after the number would allow you to also categorise your videos whilst allowing viewers to follow a sequence of tutorials, reviews etc.
= = =
Good show!
Have a look at my reply to @jonofly regarding the PSU.
You make a very good point about indexing videos....as I did not start out doing this I left it (besides T4D's). I did however realise the value of this and did it form the start on my VBlogMag channel...
To compensate I do have playlists (see channel home page) of the tutorials and reviews to group them together.
Thanks for your input.
Martin, perhaps you could compare a BK 279b with the Mastech. The BK seems to be a nice meter with similar capabilities and in a similar price point. I appreciate your willingness to explore issues and equipment without being overly concerned about being criticized for not having all the answers. This is what I call “real-world” testing that hobbyist like myself tune into your channel for. THANKS, Tom
You mean BK 879b LCR meter? It now costs anywhere between €380 to €450 in the EU nowadays. The 880 iteration which measures up to 100Kz is twice that now. Mastech can still be got for around €250...
Good idea...I'm going to give that a bash!
Capacitor value and inductance change with frecuency as does reactance. A cap can act as an inductor at certain frecuencies and inductors a cap at others.
He literally said that in the video.
I don't want to calculate now but at 100kHz it has to charge and discharge the capacitor 100,000 times a second so at 10uF it should be around 10A charge/discharge current.
+tuxontour nope . It doesnt charge the caps , that kind of measurement would suck up the battery real fast . It doesn't measure capacitance at all. It measures capacities reactance , that measurement is frequency dependent.
Thanks, appreciate you input.
Thanks, input noted and appreciated.
Interesting that it says to not apply *less* than 30 volts. An amazing meter, but how did nobody catch that?
😆Yes, it says ''Do not supply voltages (30V it would be more correct.
Capacitors...transistors...valves...op amps... still a lot more to do once I've gain a little more knowledge myself. :)
I have a power supply in the process of making, will buy a 7812 tomorrow for it to provide regulation. Also have a nice 10uF polyester foil cap to test with. It must be specified to at least 100kHz, as it was used in a anti theft unit and passed the full output current of the coil. Hopefully it will be here before end of the week.......
Indeed...but John of jwrelectro has already posted an interesting look inside the PSU...if time allows I will try the same....but at the moment I'm also working on building my own PSU and hope to gain some knowledge (and fun!) there.
I don't have eight 1.2 NiMh batteries but I have just used my variable PSU to check...and at 9.6 volts (8 x1.2) the battery level is on the 2nd / last bar and it powers off with a low battery warning at around 8.5 volts...so I would say no...
Thanks for your post!
i got one of these .although the meter its self is good i found that the cables to both the kelvin and smd probes were so short that they were almost unusable .this is rather silly in my opinion ..i have modified the rectangular connector by inserting 4x bnc connectors .then simply purchased two decent sets of gineric probes at 80 cm legnth .
Have you been able to determine the reason of the odd readings for some capacitors at 100KHz, like the ones you addressed during the review and at the end of the review ? Does the Atlas give you appropriate readings, (since its frequency is 100Khz) ? Despite the fair amount of features that device has, if we can't trust its readings, it rather defeat the purpose, doesn't it ?
The Atlas does two different tests. High freq for ESR and something else for capacitance. The Mastech does both at the freq specified and at that high frequency the cap is failing. That is a major flaw in the Atlas. It just goes to show, there's more to a cap working than ESR.
I can't agree more, but it sounds like a superb design project - well beyond me, but it doesn't stop me thinking about it - It would be interesting to know what a commercial item to characterise capacitors in this fashion would cost. It just sounds relatively doable by burning up a few brain cells rather than lots of dollar$.
I'll have to have a wee think about that, but don't hold your breath . . . Picaxe, Arduino, Megamite or Rasberry P
i
Peak Atlas only measures ESR at 100kHz. Capacitance is measured using DC pulses
Sir which one is better mastech5308 or unit t ut612.
although if the peak actually measures at 100kHz I'm at a loss to explain the difference.
It's interesting to note that this seems like an area that isn't well mapped out even by big manufacturers and large imprecision is simply the norm.
The video or the device?
That's an absolutely beautiful sine wave, considering it's artificially generated from a DC supply.
The circuitry in there would be good for use in a pure sine wave inverter.
Aaaah...thanks!
I did... ;-) I should shown that so folks could see it.
I'm looking at in-circuit esr testing for caps will this lcr meter do the same job as the atlas? As I'd prefer to buy one tool for all things.
another correction of myself :) they might measure at different voltages..
250mV does seem rather low at 100kHz. since electrolytic capacitors are chemical that might matter a lot but I'm just speculating.
hi, excuse me but my low level of english does not allow you to understand, would you recommend this LCR or not? I would need to evaluate, esr of the capacitors to calculate the value of the inductances.
I was looking for a quality instrument at a moderate price :)
I would also guess that the device capable of testing at different frequencies is the one best able to spot drop in capacitance over frequency. Seems fairly obvious :)
But what the device should do is simply have a graphical display and sweep across the full frequency range and plot is as a graph.
It could also sweep a voltage range.
Have a look at the Gwinstek LCR-8000G Series....but not the price...
couple of points more come to mind:
you can test motor inductance with LCR meter.
A good LCR meter might also test for saturation in iron core inductors. saturation is the max current where the iron inductance still remains. above that you just get aircore inductance.
the mastech seems oversized for what it does and maybe it isn't all that good at what it does.
and returning to a past general point; a costly multimeter (>150$) should do it all. oscillo, LCR, graphing.
LCR meters shouldn't exist
Измерителем индуктивности можно фазировать трансформаторы и асинхронные трехфазные электродвигатели. У мне прибор по проще MLC500 вот th-cam.com/video/3agjTs3jh_I/w-d-xo.html
It seems to me better way to troubleshoot caps in circuit is with the atlas ESR 70 Plus. It's non polarized, works faster, doesn't show nonsense in case you leave in auto mode, is way smaller and takes less space on the table.
If would be nice if you could test the mastech vs. PEAKTECH-2170 same mete but different brand, is smaller and perhaps does not have the same quirks as the mastech one.
Did you cut that power supply? You kept it nicely out of shot lol
To me it looks like Atlas is testing ESR @ 100 kHz, but not the capacitance. Maybe it using 100 or 1000 Hz for C? I believe that Mastech is correct at 100 kHz, at those frequencies it is normal that some capacitors are starting to loose capacitance and gain inductance.
Get yourself ESR Micro 4.1s meter and compared them? perhaps the
stated specifications are not true on the ESR Micro 4.1s?
The ESR Micro 4.1s meter is 2x cheaper than peak and is suppose to have better range then peak.
Jesper, I disagree with you. There is great value in the kind of issues Martin faces when dealing with kit in this value range with his experience level. These are real world issues a hobbyist faces every day when trying to make decisions in buying equipment. Instead of being a “party-pooper”, why not share your great knowledge with us. Perhaps commenting on what went wrong with some of the measurements, thus increasing the value of these videos and helping us all benefit from your comments.
what is bar graph for?
hehe, it certainly looks guilty. two points to that, the precision is higher than the usual user would need I figure. and then it could be done per pennies.
even though it's ridiculously overpriced they might lend you one for review.
But better than nothing....
End of my last message was cut short.
Thumbs down 'man' ! Thumbs up for Martin !
30:26 /agilent Fake Hold
Better than nothing...
100khz on big cap duuhhh
Capacitors will never be spot-on of their rated value, if you want to do a proper review, another proper LCR should be brought into the comparison.
Stop with all the "Few counts out" during capacitor comparison, you need a proper LCR to check the caps and DMMs dont count no matter how high precision it is and the peak ESR meter isn't the right one to compare for the MS5308 either
Honestly, I find no value in a "deep" video like this, as long as you don't know what you are talking about..
I'd recommend you to go back to your level of knowledge, save the videos about more advanced stuff until you've actually gained enough knowledge of this stuff.
I hate being a party-pooper but I gotta tell you.
10 years later and your comment stood the test of time as being absolute nonsense. I got good info from the video AND the comments. Seems the thing you overlooked the most in your self righteous small head was the community portion of TH-cam.
Next time, do better.