Crosley Genesis: The origin & evolution of cheap record players, 1984 to present
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Tracing the history of today's cheap record player mechanisms, including the company who first manufactured them and the inventor whose patents they are based on.
***UPDATE: I found another patent from Mr. Dennis that EXACTLY matches the 1988 mechanism I showed in the video, including the unusually rapid auto-return feature: freepatentsonl...
#crosley #victrola #turntables
*UPDATE:* I found another patent from Mr. Dennis that *exactly* matches the 1988 mechanism I showed in the video, including the unusually rapid auto-return feature: freepatentsonline.com/4788676.pdf
I have to say I don't know how you do this VERY GOOD DETECTIVE WORK!!!! I am still flabbergasted on how you found this info I loved this so much I seen it 6 times so far I love history and this is good history JRo
I am very pleased that you feed the audio directly and do not record the speakers as some fancy audiophile channels do...
Thank you for your research Kevin - getting more knowledgeable every day! I've been following you for 11+ years, and have seen your evolution and improvement as a TH-camr - while I'm largely above these cheap turntable mechanisms, it is very interesting and informative to see their evolution and origins.
Tremendous knowledge, dry humor, zero b.s. Vwestlife, you are a treasure.
We must protect him at all cost!
yes
@@shoppinglions9056 Is that your affiliate link?
@@shoppinglions9056 Sneaky.
@@shoppinglions9056 Oh come on. Don't give me that pretend-ignorance. You knew what you were doing. You were trying to make money on the back of someone else's video, by being the first out the gate with an affiliate link to grab those Amazon affiliate dollars for yourself.
And apparently someone with mod powers agrees with me that that's not the done thing, because it seems your affiliate link comment has now been deleted.
I find it fascinating that the same man who invented budget record changers invented budget CD changers 20 years later!
Yeah that one shocked me too!
And my mom's Sony (that was pretty much like the TEAC here), I'm quite sure had both! The 5-CD changer was on the bottom and bulged out of the rest of the system :)
Only thing left are the speakers that are surprisingly good (but only when placed well in the room). Also surprisingly they were made in Germany...
The Glaser-Steers GS-77 wasn't originally a budget record changer, it was fairly expensive. They made a simpler model GS-400 which didn't have the platter atopping during the change cycle or the automatic speed selector, but it wasn't a budget changer either, it was still more costly than the very popular V-M 1200.
General Electric took over Glaser-Steers in 1963 and further simplified the design for use in their portable record players, then came out with a totally new design in 1965.
I had a suitcase Crosley and you know it was never a GREAT player, but it also didn't mess up my records and what it lacked in quality it allowed me the space to dip my feet into the world of vinyl collecting to know if I wanted to make a more worthy investment. These days I have a much more advanced (though still fairly "mid range") setup and I wouldn't have spent that money without exploring the scene with the Crosley first, and I think that's worth it.
This is what I tell people when they're always giving crap to newcomers into vinyl world. We need the cheap little dink to let us know if this is something real to us. Then, we can explore the world and spend time and money when we are hooked! I know that's what I did. :)
I’m here after watching Techmoans video 👍
That cheap and nasty mechanism.and screechy ceramic cartridge. They were around for ages as stated in the video. Audiophiles also avoided them back in those days it seems.
@@robredz for some reason i have always had a love for the ceramic cartridge (that's what i was brought up with and all i could afford, use to try and go for a Sonitone 9TAHC, they were slightly better) , (i use a magnetic on my main deck now ) but it dose amazes me that you can make them sound pretty good, most of the problems with modern players, why they sound so crap is that these these decks have a rubbish amp in them, a ceramic cartridge needs a good 2M Ohm load to approximate the RIAA equalization or massive attenuation and a phono preamp. but like you said still never 'Audiophiles' quality. Considering most people used to have 'Hi-FI' systems with 'full range' single speakers with no more than a 2W output, a magnetic cartridge would not have made much difference.
@@priddystrains5660 Yes the Sonotone was alsoused in many DJ decks as were rugged and didn't sound too bad, a really good sounding Ceramic was the Decca Deram, but they had a low output voltage for a Ceramic, howeverin times gone by the 2 Watt hifi, the audiophile might be a Leak valbve amp with 10 watts a channel fed into Tannoy dual concentrics that wouldn't take more than 20 watts, but would fill a dancehall big beasts like Tannoy Westminster's.
@@robredz Agree completely, the Decca Deram was a good ceramic, I had a friend who had one, who would continuously rip into me about my Sonotone's...... On the note of the Tannoy's i once had a set i used when i first started DJing in pubs (they were wood but painted them black to make them look 'professional' ha) , used to use a couple of Garrard SP25 decks, they were built to last back then, when they said 20W they meant 20W not like some speakers or amps today, '100W' is almost like 10W with a good old amp and speakers :). I once brought one of them moden cheap 'suitcase' players about £30, said on the specification 5W RMS per channel (never believed it ) , on taking it apart the IC used in the amp is from the 80s for walkman casset playes no more than 500mW per channel. Always wondered how they get away with saying things like that, then i realised the built in speekers have 5W rms stamped on them :)
Techmoan can get a bit toxic..
So the main reason why record players with this kind of mechanism usually sound so bad is the impedance mismatch, since they don't have a pre-amp designed for a ceramic cartridge.
Yup, and that design flaw has a long history, too. My sister had a 1992 Sanyo stereo system and its record player sounded horribly tinny because they didn't properly match the impedance, even back then.
@@vwestlife Then why don't just make a full job instead of a half job, match the impedance once in the construction and then produce thousands of players that sound decent for years?
@@timweber4318 lazyness and greeding for money maybe?
Those aren’t pre amps. The output of a ceramic is near line level, it doesn’t need true preampfification.
But they still add a lot of rumble, wow (very noticable in piano music) and an unacceptable amount of tracking weight. A good turntable applies 1,25 - 1,75 grams of weight. These things do 5 - 7 grams. That they already existed back in the 1980's doesn't mean they don't harm or wear down your records. They did back then, and they still do.
If you want to verify the history of this mechanism, a great place to look is the Radio Shack catalogs. They seem to have been using BSR mechanisms on their budget turntables all along, and you can see when they switch from the older style BSR mechanism (the 70s style record changers with the start/stop lever in the corner, usually with a silver bulls-eye pattern on top) to the newer cost reduced version you had from 1984. There was also an in-between version for awhile.
The 1982 catalog exclusively has the older 70s style BSR design for budget models, and more bespoke designs up the range. No hint of the newer mech yet.
The 1983 catalog is slightly more interesting. The cheaper all-in-one tables (Clarinete 104, Clarinete 90, etc) still use the 70s BSR mech, same for the very cheapest standalone LAB-59, but the slightly more expensive LAB-75 and LAB-77 use a changer that looks like it's an in-between of the older design and the 1984 design. It borrows some elements, like the flusher style off/play switch from the older BSR, but has a minimalist footprint more similar to the newer model. It uses more fake chrome than the 1984 design but less than the older units. I think this might be a missing link in crappy turntable evolution.
1984 soldiers on with the same lineup on the lower end, so nothing of note here.
1985 replaces the LAB-75 and 77 with the LAB-79 and 85 changers. These look exactly like your 1984 style BSR, but configured to be a changer. They also included a platter mat. I did read somewhere that this was a BSR table rebadged as a Realistic product, so it seems that the 1984 BSR variant was also available as a changer. The 70s style BSR table was finally bumped off of the standalone LAB tables, making the new BSR the new bottom end, but it remained on some of the all-in-one Clarinete tables. Notably, the very cheapest Clarinete, the 116, has your non-changer 1984 BSR turntable mech at last.
Given that they probably started manufacturing these a little before release, this date lines up, and these machines most likely first hit the market in '85.
1986 was mostly the same. By this point only one model was left with the 70s style BSR mech, the Clarinete-115. Some of the others like the 114 had more cut back designs reminiscent of the older model but without a changer. The slimmer profile, cheaper Clarinetes had the newer '84 non-changer variant.
1987: Realistic still marketed the changer style of the '84 variant, consolidated to just one table, the LAB-89, and somehow the 70s style BSR limped on in the highest end Clarinete. (I had no idea changers were still around this far into the 80s.)
1988: The LAB-89 changer is till there. The 70s style BSR is finally killed off in the Clarinete series, and it looks like they actually regressed to an even cheaper looking table for a bit. Notably, this time it recognizably has a red Chuo Denchi cartridge.
1989: That plucky LAB-89 changer is still holding on, and I must know if it survived into the 90s. The Clarinete series is reduced to one lonely model, the 122, which has the "even cheaper than BSR" mechanism with Chuo Denchi cart.
1990: The LAB-89 makes it one more year! Changers officially made it to the 90s, though I wonder how many actually sold. Maybe they had so much stock left over that they kept them in the catalog until they finally sold out, who knows. The Clarinete holds on with one last model, the 124, which has a mech that looks much closer to the 1988 style you have, but still slightly different; the table and tonearm are separated.
Finally, in 1991 Radio Shack stops marketing changers for good. Only a handful of sad looking black plastic turntables remain. By 1993 there's only two left and they're getting shoved farther back in the catalog with tinier pics. It's down to a single lonely table in 1997 until the Realistic line was finally killed off, but they kept marketing budget tables even after this under the RCA badge. But at this point we're well into the age of Crosley tables.
I haven't had a turntable since the 80s even though I have a LOT of vinyl albums from the 70s in varying states of wear. When a newlywed in 92, my bride, bless her heart, bought me a Radio Shack turntable for Christmas. With skepticism, I put an album on and put the stylus in the track. The tracking weight must have been about a half a pound. It was torture letting it even go half way through the first song of my precious album, and that was it. It's still sitting in the storage room. One day maybe, I'll buy a good turntable, but honestly I don't see it. I listen to CDs exclusively and most of my vinyl that I would still listen to has been replaced with a CD version.
I want to get a Crosley Cruiser and play Dark Side of the Moon five times in a row to spite Michael Fremer
OUTSTANDING!
Does playing a fresh Boston album six times or more on a Cruiser count? The album is still fine by the way.
Yes I agree I don't like Michael Fremer he is the audiofool I used to be cause of people like him they don't make great automatic TT's like I remember
Michael Fremer is not completely wrong. Each time you play a record the groove stretches out of shape a little. Back in the 70's and 80's the rule Hi-Fi boffins like me went by was never play a record more than once in 24 hours so the vinyl had time to return to shape. We also went to great lengths to use cartridges that tracked well under 2 grams in order to minimise record wear, with top of the line cartridges from companies such as Empire, Stanton and Sure tracking between 3/4 to 1& 1/4 grams.
@@macxpert3588 Not everyone can afford those kinds of setups. I can't afford it. I own 2 Technics TTs, both outfitted with AT95E P-mounts. There's no way I can afford to replace those when the time comes. For that reason I don't use those TTs often but the Cruise I own I can afford to use. Diamond styluses are only $8 average for three replacements. And I'm speaking from personal experience...regardless of what others think or believe my Crosley Cruiser is not and has not damaged my records whether old or new. My first TT was an all in one Panasonic, 1980's model, and tracked a bit heavier than my Cruiser. Those records played fine, no damage, all the years I grew up. As long as you keep the vinyl and stylus clean and well maintained there is nothing to worry about.
Some detective work went into this one.
I know the factories(s) where the units are made. I was there a few times in the last years. They are all in Guangdong province in South China. I live there.
The outer metal ring has a fuction. Normally it goes a little bit stronger around the plastic platter. The metal ring keeps the plastic platter in shape to reduce the altitude stroke (hopefully I use the right word, I am a native German...). This is working very well. If you want to know more you can ask me. The man who produces the cheap needles became very rich. He lives in a big villa. The smaller record players (suit case and so on, with the smaller platter) uses lower voltage. I made the suggestion years ago that run with a 5V USB power supply. In before the smaller units uses 9V. It seems they are all run with 5V now.
a german, living in china, speaking english, on a youtube video made by a man in the US. a true Mr Worldwide, lol
_"The metal ring keeps the plastic platter in shape to reduce the altitude stroke"_
Sounds kind of like the metal ring serves as reinforcement to help prevent the plastic platter from warping.
I used to live there and I'm so glad I don't anymore.
I have vivid memories of playing my parents records on their all-in-one Amstrad stereo back in the late 80s/early 90s that had a plastic turntable/orange cartridge just like these. If its cheap/affordable and works, that's enough for most people.
Have to admit, these videos are way more useful for people getting into records than the videos of audiophiles claiming you need to spend $1000 on a cartridge made by nude virgins, and $3000 on a turntable and stereo or you'll never enjoy your records (which is utter rubbish.) The truth is the majority of people would be happy listening with a cheaper turntable and stylus, like the ones shown in this video.
And if 6 grams of tracking force bugs you, I'd be willing to bet money that most of the used albums on the market today were generally played on turntables with higher tracking force back in the day, and sound perfectly fine today. A lot of tube records players and old changers tracked at 6+ grams. Vinyl is a lot tougher of a format than some people on the internet think. The blemishes in records are what make them attractive. It's not a format for people wanting crystal clear reproduction that sounds the same every time, digital formats are much better suited at that.
Yeah. I’ve had the same turntable which tracks at 5.5 grams for a little over a year, and have used it at least once or twice a day. All my records sound fine still.
Meanwhile the audiophile is preaching about his $2,000 turntable with 8,500 records in the background that he's never listened to.
“Nude Virgins”?!!! Bruh I’m laughing like crazy over that comment.😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 you just made my day
I remember back in the 80', we used to put a coint on the pickup lifter to add more weight, And it didn't ruin the record's
Don't forget that you also can't enjoy music if the platter mat isn't made from Unicorn hide, all the cables aren't diamond encrusted, gold plated platinum, and if you didn't insulate the player by placing it on a 2.27356 inches slab of African Blackwood with brass, air suspended feet.
Luckily i've got an LP60X for christmas 😅
Nice!
I had an LP60, but I could never really get the timing right on it, so I grabbed an LP120USB (or whatever the model is) with the quartz locked direct drive. It makes a world of difference, but it is pricey in comparison.
Its a great tt I bought 1 in 2011 and after a year i thought more expensive tt's are better, well, i can tell u from my experince, after buying $400 Dennon dp 300f and now $ 1.3k music hall 7.3. Sound difference is not that big ( if any).
I own the Sony version of it, the PS-LX250H. I had one for almost 20 years, and it finally broke. I found another one used for $40. Very good unit for the money.
just don't post that on r/turntables
The only thing these cheap turntables ruined was the idea that vinyl sounded better. But it sparked my desire to get a proper setup for a much better sound experience. I say they're a decent intro turntable with the right expectations.
BSR is a very unfavorable name here in Berlin.
It stands for "Berliner Stadtreinigung". The garbage collection service.
I guess it's just a coincidence.
Does the garbage man do that bad of a job in Berlin?
@@shuttlethefox6042 No, they do a good job....
@@ChristianKoehler77 Then why would it be an unfavorable name???
Getting all up in the history. You're like the New Jersey Techmoan. 🤣
Michael Fremer has some decent album recommendations, but since his turntable costs more than my car (and the pre-amp); and the amps and speakers more than my house... suffice to say he's a bit out of touch with affordable gear.
I prefer the music first audiophile concept. If I can enjoy my music on a piece of equipment, I don't care if it's 'cheap'. Cheap can sound good with the proper pairings and knowing the limitations of your equipment.
For some people it's just a "name game" and bragging. If something SOUNDS good, It's good. END of story. I have $45 "in the ear" Bluetooth Sonys that SOUND better (with my music, Largely Classic Rock, Blues and Jazz..) than the "Beats by Dre" version (similar price, BTW). But because of the NAME, the "Beats" have more "cred"...WHAH?!? IDC about STATUS, I Care about SOUND.
@@idkanymore3382 Absolutely correct on Sony's wired cans. (I'm not making this up) I have a pair of wired Sonys that I got I bought at friggin FAMILY DOLLAR for $8 that are every bit a match for my TASCAM TH-03s that were THREE TIMES the price, LOL. -The Sony's are a *bit* better at the low end, And the Tascams are a *bit* better at the high end, But over all Same... For $8!!
You can buy a vastly superior turntable, that has a tonearm counterweight for less than £200 or $200 brand new. Alternatively, you could buy a second hand one for half that amount. Are you really telling me that is unaffordable to the majority of people?
@@qsxdr7 The OP didn't imply that you should get a Crosley. He said that he put music first, not price. I agree. I have a vintage Dual 510 that I bought in the 80s for about $50. No need to spend $1,000 for a decent turntable.
@@idkanymore3382 worse than the Beats are Apple's new Airpod Max or whatever the hell they're named. $600 and to put them to sleep in the battery saver mode, you've got to carry that silly 'bra' tote.
. Thank you again for the subtitles. You have already a very good speech, easy to understand and a pleasing voice. But the subtitles helps me to get those words I'm still not able to understand by just hearing it 👍👍👍👍😀
I never heard anyone not from Jersey find the accent pleasing. lol.
Here in the UK almost every turntable I encountered during the 70s was a BSR. My very first record player was a Fidelity stereo with a BSR deck just like this. I loved it. It played my records fine and was within the financial reach of my parents. Thank you BSR.
Fascinating! Informative! Educational! This made me take another look with a different perspective at all these cheaply made turntables with a ceramic cartridge. Though I do still think the genuine Chuo Denshi cartridge made in Japan sounds better than the clone from China, the sound quality you were able to get from each of these iterations was very pleasing!
I know next to nothing about turntables and thoroughly enjoyed the video. Great work.
While these cheap turntables won't destroy records, they do cause severe damage after 100 playbacks. It all comes down to physics. A sharp needle vs soft vinyl. More tracking force and less than optimal shape of the tip = more damage over time.
Check out the great video by jimboblivesforever. He actually tried it.
So no, the "audiophiles" are not wrong, but they often exaggerate the problem.
Every time I see that clip of Michael Fremer, I die a little inside lol.
Love the video as always, didn't know these mechanisms went back that far. You learn something new every day.
The 1984 mechanism is trying so hard to look high end.
It's trying to look 1984-high-end ;)
And strangely enough, it still sounds the best out of all those demonstrated! It was using a better cartridge with the Tetrad... cleaner and more accurate bass and treble than the Japanese/Chinese clone had - untill the last example of the 202 version which sounded pretty decent; but not as good as the '84 model....
Even though in 1984 it was very far from 'high end'!! At least it was better 'low end'... ;-)
BSR actually started making mini players in the late 1960s, only back then, they were auto changers with BSR's own SC 12A ceramic cartridge, They moved to Tetrad in the late 1970s. Radiotvphononut has a few. One was featured in a recent video where he compares it to a modern Crosley.
@@dougbrowning82 : BSR continued through the 70s with the BSR SC-12M cartridge in the music-centre all-in-one systems that were made by folks like Ferguson, Thorn, Fidelity, etc, and into the early 1980s...
These Ferguson Music centres were my teen age years when I really started getting into music, and I loved them....
Those BSR decks; built to a budget, still performed well, and sounded great!
That BSR SC-12M cartridge sound has a place in my heart... and the stereo separation from a decent ceramic cartridge sounds dramatically wider than with a magnetic cartridge!
@@stevesstuff1450 I actually thought the 1984 model sounded the worst, with the treble being more recessed. I thought the 1988 version sounded superior, the 2002 sounded the worst, and the 2020 sounding comparable to the '84 and '88 models.
This was so helpful! I was able to find the speed adjustment “screws” on my Soundesign turntable b/c it was playing the records too slow and it would play 45’s but I cleaned the contacts on the switch and does now! By the way, your advice on turning a meh sapphire into a wow diamond was also super helpful!
Got an Ion turntable with that mechanism and adding a banpa cartridge (per your video) really classes up the sound. I also do the old-school trick of glueing a few coins off the back to lower the tracking force. The only thing I can't solve is needle talk. Some of my cheapies are so noisy I can listen to an album in a quiet room without the amp plugged in.
“So they made the whole DAMN PLATTER the strobe marks”
A sudden burst of passion! Excellent and entertaining video sir! Awesome 😎
I always thought that was cool
@@bradygiltz5160 It's not like this video came out 10 years ago, lol!
Wouldn't the speed change with the added weight of the record making the marks on the platter inaccurate?
This is the second time I've seen that Michael Fremer clip and it doesn't get any less melodramatic
He made it seem like a cheap turntable would murder your family & burn your house down, while also stealing your hopes and dreams. 🤣
Sure, if I could listen to his stereo system instead of mine, I would. The problem is, his stereo is worth multiples of my house! He's got Wilson speakers, like $200K in monoblock amps, etc. I think his tone arm and cartridge was something nuts - like $15k when he did a room tour. Those items are a far cry from what most of us can afford, or even aspire to.
If you're enjoying your music on a thrift store setup, I'm happy for you. Whatever helps you experience and enjoy the music is all that really matters. Recently I recommended a cheap $30 pair of wireless earbuds on Facebook, because for the money, they sound great and if all you have is those and a phone - you can still have a good listening experience. 😁👍
I have yet to see a cheap record player destroy vinyl like it’s peeling a potato
I have never really bought into the whole “cheap modern needles will destroy your records within a few plays”. My two biggest gripes with these newer players is that the motor speeds often are either be too fast or slow … or there is too much flutter. On the “vintage look” players, what gets me is that makers like Crosley go to such extremes reproducing the cases to look genuinely like a 50-80 year old machine; only to open them up to be met with a black plastic turntable that look like 1990!
Hey man, I have been watching your videos for a long time now and I have noticed a big jump in quality. You have always had interesting videos, but it so nice to see how far you've come. Keep it up!
Vinyl records weren't designed to be used a million times, but surely these 6+ gram tracking force players won't do it any good.
The JVC L-E5 I use myself has a 1.3 gram tracking force.
It does matter.
Everything else, like plastic parts VS metal parts, stylus or the circuitry has no effect on the record. The stylus will damage the groove no matter what.
You want a unlimited play medium, go with a CD, or better, just data off a memory storage device which can be copied forever.
Vinyl wasn't reinvented because it's cheap, better sounding or somehow superior. It's fun and is supposed to be fun.
So if someone has fun with a Crosley, then let them have fun.
You want audio quality, you don't get vinyl records, but FLAC files on a Class A amplifier.
It is fun, that's pretty much why I play records, that and I'm old so I have several thousand from before the dawn of time.
Flac is a great audio file. I have hundreds (or thousands?) of vinyl downloads that I got from this Russian site called RU tracker. The notes on these files are pretty amazing. The people played their vinyl on VPI scoutmaster turntables ( a cheap scoutmaster is about 15k) FLAC rules the audio roost. Toodles👋
Any bounce on this vid today from Techmoan's discussion of this mechanism?
My parents had that same Panasonic model. It got a lot of use.
Ignore that reply, I think its a scammer.
BSR produced changers used to be everywhere in the 70's - and they were never well regarded. Here we have BSR's non-changer legacy: still everywhere and still not well regarded! Thanks for this; a refreshing change from the mostly mindless Crosley/Victrola/etc reviews found on TH-cam.
Well... I got a Magnavox turntable with Bluetooth which uses this kind of mechanism... oh look how they massacred the Magnavox!
As an European, I know what you mean, but don't feel you: by the time the brand was marketed over here like 30 yr ago it was China junk already. It was Philips' budget brand by then (and Philips itself was already churning out cheapo plasticky stuff in their lower price range, so go figure).
@@BilisNegra A lot of Philips stuff today is just rebranded Panasonic, and it usually has a lot of Funai parts inside.
My magnovox tv is good
18:13 Yo dawg we heard you liked strobe marks.
A turn table design that is both used and scorned around the world that was designed by a guy in OKC? Very interesting indeed!
Ignore that reply, I think its a scammer.
It's like with the recent cassette mechanisms that are all the same today.
Those are based on a unit by Tanashin, a Japanese company. Though a simple design, it can work well when done right. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of knockoffs of them, and they are most certainly NOT done right.
Tanashin has been around since the 80's though.
But at least turntable and record player manufacturers aren't limited to the one cheap mechanism, unlike with new cassettes now.
@@michaelturner4457 unless you have vintage high quality decks...which in my case i have a few.
That TEAC system you showed had many variants. It was very popular in the UK under names BUSH and goodmans, sold through Argos catalogue shop. My family had three.
I used to work for BSR (Birmingham Sound Reproducers) making turntables at their factory in East Kilbride, Scotland in the 1970's.
Those were solidly made decks as I recall
BSR was a British company, formed as Birmingham Sound Reproducers in 1908. It was responsible from the 1950s onwards for the decks in the iconic British Dansette brand of record players, so BSR decks brought rock and roll to the receptive ears of British teenagers - along with the other main brand Garrard. Inevitably production disappeared to the far east in the 1980s, the remnants eventually being taken over by Emerson. Source - Wikipedia.
It's ludicrous that they even make turntables for tens of thousands of dollars. A Technics for $20K, a Clearaudio Master Innovation for $28K...the Vyger Indian Signature IV is priced at $65,000 USD. I haven't bought an album since the 80s but I remember the hardest part was getting one that wasn't outright warped, or cupped, or had a wave in it. They ALL had something wrong with them and you had to pick your battles with the record store, which led me to keeping quite a few records with a slight wave in them. Then, no matter how clean you kept them with that little felt disc cleaner and fluid, you'd get snaps, crackle and pops, just from household dust (microscopic rocks) floating around and landing in the grooves. When CDs came out, though the sound was as clear as a bell, I too somehow perceived the difference in sound. I told someone that, I just don't enjoy my music like I used to, what could it be? I guess I got over that, but music still doesn't do it for me like it used to when I was young and listened to albums, all other things being equal.
The turntable looks like the hull of the Enterprise
Ignore that reply, I think its a scammer.
'they realized people were complaining about the bad visibility of the strobe marks.. *so they made the whole damned platter the strobe marks*' one of my favorite quotes of all time
Your videos are great... always learn something new.
So the Crosley Cruiser is indeed the modern equivalent of a cheapo BSR changer. Even has its DNA!
This is the best video you've ever made,those 1980's players bring back memories of Sears and K-Mart stereos.
Recently picked up a Soundesign turntable which has a later version of the BSR mechanism, looks closer to the 1988 version but without the tab on the bottom left has BSR branding but the speed selection is done mechanically and the lever is right by the cue lever and the 45rpm spindle is still built in. Mine has an ROC calendar year of 74, which would be 1985.
The 1984 sounds the best. I was fascinated by this as I had a BSR based record player in my Hitachi all in one as young music buff from the mid to late 70's
I love your turntable/record player videos. Wishing you a very Happy New Year.
Im here from a comment on Techmoan's video!
Capetronic AFAIK was at least at one point a division of BSR. I know they made more than turntables and did contract manufacturing for lots of companies.
Yes, I found some references to Capetronic being owned by BSR.
I remember they also had a brand called ADC, who specialized in graphic equalizers and phono cartridges - they were more high-end though, they sold the crap under the BSR name and the better stuff under ADC.
If anyone is wondering what happened to BSR they changed their name to ASTEC and manufactured computer parts. www.cbronline.com/news/astec_bsr_reckons_rationalisation_will_feed_through_in_1991/
Just about every British Designed home computer made in the 1980s had an Astec RF modulator. IN BBC computers they made the PSU as well. I recall reading at the time that BSR was the company behind the name.
It's a shame they do not make these BSR"a anymore I grew up with these TT's I did not appreciate them at the time I went by what audiophiles said that these automatics were sub par. older I have gotten that I sometimes think of my young days and started watching videos on how to repair these TT's if you take a good look at them the way they function is almost like watching a fine time piece especially the earlier Bar's from early 60'&70's the platter was metal and platter had rubber on top , and watching how they go down onto record precisely is fascinating I always loved these automatic TT's just did not know it till I fixed 2 of them from early 70's these were built like tanks the last one I fixed had a magnetic cart and an adjustable counter weight which I did not know they made them till I bought this one. I think they do a fairly good job at placing stylus onto record with out missing been using manuals for several years getting tired of trying to carefully place needle down and getting up just as record finishes ,I do not see what damage they can do to a record JRo
@@jro7075 BSR started making record changers in 1951. They had the Monarch series, which included the Magidisk intermix automatic record size indexing system. In the late 1960s, they switched to the McDonald series, with manual size selection, but gaining auto repeat play. Monarch was the name of the street where the factory was located in Birmingham, and McDonald was the founder's name. Their biggest competitor at the time was Swindon based Gerrard, which was originally a clock maker. BSR was also in the home automation business. making remote controlled outlets and light switches that could be controlled from a central console. Hackers figured out how to produce the control codes on an Apple II computer, and home automation was born. The Dansette record players, produced in London, were designed around BSR Monarch changers.
I've said it once and I'll say it again. In a weird way your videos are like therapy. ESPECIALLY in these messed up times of 2020.
Wow that is VERY TRUE ,after a hard day at work or listening to depressing news I like to watch VWestlife It can take me away from worrying about things I wish I could control but cannot JRo
@@jro7075 Yeah........ Life was GREAT when we had our cassettes and Walkman's. NOW look at us!! 😆 Our phones took over EVERYTHING. Eliminated so much we used to love. CRAZY TIMES. ⏲️
I saw the Picture on Twitter :). I have a Victroa cruiser but now have a Sharp RP-113 from a Salvation Army thrift store.
Ignore that reply, I think its a scammer.
@@marionharrisfan2988 are you new? I was going to get a Vornado and new battery.
The thing about these turntable mechanisms is that they have an authentic “vinyl sound”. From the cheapest Crosley or Victrola unit to turntables from quality brands like TEAC, you are going to hear a crisp and crackly reproduction of your records. This is normal and very common, especially in affordable turntables. Some people love the crackles and pops that vinyl offers because it seems more retro, while hardcore audiophiles like Vinyl Eyezzz recommend you buy a $450 Fluance turntable with several $100 amplifiers. Not all of us can afford that. Turntables like a Fluance, Denon, and the most expensive Audio Technica, all come with an even sturdier, higher quality needle than the red plastic ones found on the affordable turntables. People who compare vinyl to digitally remastered music, have remastered the music themselves (For The Record has explained this about his audio setup in a video of his) on their high end pre amps.
I love my records and want them to sound good, but I don’t need them to sound THAT good. I currently am happy with my $290 TEAC turntable.
The Fluance is probably made by the same company that makes the Denon and Teac turntables. The Fluance brand has been for years associated with home theater speakers. It's owned by a Niagara Falls based marketing company called Circus World Displays, who also sells under the Citizen, Electrohome, First Alert, and other brands. And, BTW, they do sell those plastic Chinese players, as Citizen and Electrohome.
I believe I have a nearly identical Onkyo turntable, looking online. I'm very happy with it.
@@dougbrowning82 Yahorng Electric is the OEM that makes current Fluance, Teac and Akai turntables. Denon (except for the VL12 Prime) and most Audio Technica turntables are made by Hanpin Electron.
@@OldMusicOnVinyl1 Yahorg Electric is based in Taiwan. They make turntables, mixers, blenders, choppers, coffee makers, deep fryers, food processors, and juice extractors. Hanpin Electron, also from Taiwan, makes audio equipment, musical instruments, and business machines.
@@dougbrowning82 Yahorng is so fascinating. I just unintentionally learned about their kitchen products by looking up _their_ turntable patents, in a similar effort to trace the lineage of certain turntables by companies such as Numark. Yahorng has several factories making turntables: one in Taiwan, one in mainland China, and another in Malaysia.
All roads lead back to BSR.
How true (a former teenage owner of a 1981 Radio Shack BSR system!)
It was BSR, the one that made those cheap record changers. I had my Fisher turntable that had a cheap BSR changer until I replaced it with my Magnavox Collaro Micromatic which was a later production from 1967 that I pulled out of a portable stereo record player since it was in poor shape, and it still works after cleaning and lubricating. BSR was the brand for cheap record changers that were known for being stuck or frozen due to old grease, and it needs a lot of cleaning. The Magnavox Collaro changers are way better.
@@Musicradio77Network
It fits, then, that Crosley was able to get a BSR designed record changer in their Stack-o-Matic record players a few years ago. The changer they used was virtually an exact duplicate of the 'classic' BSR design of the 1970s; parts were even interchangeable. The only difference was they altered the drive a bit; the Stacko used a DC motor and belt drive, where the older changers were idler drive with AC motors.
@@xaenon The GE Wildcat record also had a changer that it wasn’t BSR or Glaser Steers, it was the GE name. They did the same for “Swingmate” as well and the tonearm that has a GE logo emblem on top. That was made in the 1970’s when GE started to make record players that are cheap at the time.
@@Musicradio77Network I almost misread that as Fisher Price :-)
Here in the UK BSR supplied the deck for the Fidelity HF42, which from about 1975 to it being discontinued was the cheapest new record player on the market th-cam.com/video/QOunAaZ8XNk/w-d-xo.html In real terms it was still a lot more than a Crosley though. £14 in 1976 which adjusted for inflation was £101 in 2019.
I'm no fan of basic tuntables, not one bit. That said, I appreciate that you don't speak ill of anyone who does, unlike so many other channels I've seen out there. Great work as usual!
Great video!!! I still wish they would update the design and add back in the 45 adapter and a spring .... this is a old tiered design....
Great find! And amazing to see the connection between a single man and millions of cheap record players.
I have an RCA-branded version of that little Radio Shack amp. The switchable magnetic/ceramic phono input makes those perfect for testing turntables,
My first ever "HiFi" system was an Amstrad branded all in one designed to look like a separates system I got for Christmas in around 1983/1984, it even came built into a cabinet with a glass door and record storage underneath. It had almost exactly the same mechanism as the BSR one but was branded Amstrad rather than BSR. I still have albums I played on that system back then and they still sound fine today on decent turntables because I have always looked after my records.
At least you don't have to pay $250 for a cartridge like my B&O Beogram from the 70s (hand me down from my dad) with these mechanisms!
A lot of people avoid B&O decks for that very reason... the proprietary cartridges.
I have a very interesting variant of of this mechanism up in my attic right now. It is most similar to the 1984 version but marked Capetronic on the bottom. It actually has a magnetic cartridge on it and a built in pre-amp. Dates to around 1988-1989 and is basically new in box. When I tried it had a lot of wow and flutter so probably needs a new belt. Anyhow what makes it interesting is it’s a full changer. Has a bizarre looking spindle. It’s a Realistic Lab 89 if you want to look it up. Anyhow I was just going to throw it out at some point, but if you’re interested and would pay the shipping cost I’d give it to you. If not no big deal. Just thought I would mention it.
Send me an e-mail via the "for business inquiries" link on the About page of my TH-cam channel. I'd be interested in doing a video about that model.
I had one from the Soundesign branded Montgomery Ward line, roughly 1983! The only thing I hated was the fricking automatic turn off, no lift and return.
Only a few 3 on 1 audio system that uses those crap record players had the impedance adaptor for a ceramic cartridge, so usually you listen a totally lack of bass and a shouting mid-highs, what you show with your Realistic phono preamp is how "potentially" that trash so called cartridge should, not how it came out in every single equipment.
is it my imagination or did the 1988 version sound the best at the end there?
It was also my impression that the '88 version sounded the best, though hearing it a step removed from the 2020 version made it difficult to discern. I definitely think the 2002 mechanism sounded the worst.
Very interesting video. I've got here in the UK a Philips midi system from 1988 with this type of turntable. I was really easy to track down a replacement diamond stylus for it, and it sounds great.
Check out techmoan’s rant of this mechanism: th-cam.com/video/AXV8tXrPOR4/w-d-xo.html
The Tetrad cartridge sounded the best. Those Chuo-Denshi (and clones) cartridges have always had a hollow tone with that scratchy trebly high end like we heard in the video, especially with the all-plastic stylus. I once had a mid-80's Fisher combo that had an all-black variation on the 1984 mechanism but with the Chuo-Denshi cart rather than the Tetrad. I've had several other players over the years from the early 90's through 2010's that use that same cart, and they all sound exactly the same.
Once again another fine VWestlife video to end my 3 day weekend.
Who would have thought that cheap turntables and entry level cassette decks would have such interesting histories. It should come as no surprise that my first stereo (Soundesign) had pretty much the same mechanism. My first record player was a Fisher Price, I wonder how it compared...
This is absolutely fascinating. Great video! 😁
Very interesting!
I think that the 1984 one gave the most pleasing audio quality.
Piezo Pick-Up Cartridges don't really lend themselves to being used with Solid State Amplifiers and some cheaper Midi Systems have been sold with poor matching and sound tinny as a result when playing Records.
Improving these is not difficult however as all you need to do is to add a Resistor of about a couple of Megohms in series with the Cartridge output and add a One Transistor Amplifier Stage after that to make up for the loss of amplitude across the Matching Resistor and there you are.
You will have to do it twice for stereo equipment of course but the improvement is worth the time,effort and money.
lol@midi systems
I love when people try to sound knowledgeable.
@@denizenofclownworld4853 It is an improvement which I have proved in practice.
Do you have any better ideas?
@@michaelrobertson575 ...and comes a response to a statement I never made.
What about ditching the Crosleys and get a ELP LASER Turntable form Japan only costs $16,000-00
Very cheap!
Actually, believe it or not, at one point the Japanese division of BSR owned the patents to the ELP laser turntable!
Okay, is it just me, or was the 1984 one actually pretty decent?
In James Dennis’ defence, I suspect he designed his to be cheap, but still reasonable, not the modern cost reduced, reduced, reduced ones we have today.
I, umm, think you missed the point of the video. The modern ones are virtually identical to the 80s ones.
@@CptJistuce but not exactly. This video also shows the chops and changes that have occurred since the original design, thus making them (even) worse.
@@CptJistuce also, take another look at those original patent designs.
@@MrLurchsThings The patent does cover some features not implemented in these turntables, such as auto-start and the ability to automatically play a record twice. (I'm not sure why anyone would want that!) And as I showed, the new 2020 mechanism actually has some improvements over the previous iterations (except for the heavier tracking force), and I think it's the best-sounding of all of them. (The 1984 mechanism also sounds good but has audible motor noise.)
@@vwestlife, the bearings in that 1984 motor may be dried out, so to speak. Probably didn't have that great of lubricant in the bearings to begin with.
I skipped this, and got an Audio Technica AT-LPGO-BT (AT-LP60XBT), with an aluminum platter.
looked over at the used crosley I bought a while back, and yup, it has that exact mechanism.
I recognized that Panasonic one as soon as I saw it, because it's the exact same system I have in my bedroom right now.
I've been binging your turntable videos for the whole day and I just ran out, so this video couldn't have appeared at a better time!
These cheesy BSR mechanisms go even further back to the 70's at least, I had a "Soundesign" t-table with one but it had the old overly narrow ceramic cartridge design with the needle you could flip from LP to 78 etc. - I tried buying a better needle for it to help the sound but it still had a thin tinny sound no matter whether it was plugged into phono or line outputs. Mine had an idler wheel design that rumbled like a sherman tank.
more power Vwestlife! we need your very informative audio reviews. i enjoy watching your videos its really very informative. keep it up.
The thing about those cheap turntables, is not only the sound quality, but also there isn't much fun to it, just plug and play, no tracking force regulation, no anti skating etc. You get it powered, you place a record down, place the needle on it and it's done, shape of the headshells arm where you can grab it is also off, so manually putting down/picking up the needle is rather hard and can result in scratching the records
Loved seeing what looks like a Tandy 1000 TX in the background. Had one of those for years, was my first "PC Compatible." Great box.
Thanks. I'd love to get a 1000TX, but the one I have now is a 1000SX.
Just played a record I got Xmas 1975 and it still sounds great. So much for all the hammer it took on the BSR decks back in the day 🤣
Didn't know Pioneer used a carousel cd player, thought they stuck to their load upside down cartridge mech.
Excellent video cheers 🍻🎄
I always used "spiders" in my 45's. Less of a "problem" when using someone else's turntable, if they couldn't find their adapters. LOL.
Spiders have wrecked records when left in place. Put your record away with the spider in place and it will pop out and fall inside the sleeve and scratch your fave pop hit
@@psychedelicjim7093 I never left them in. but always had a "ziplock" bag of them, LOL.
After they switched to interchangeable spindles, people would always lose their single play LP spindle, and they were stuck with the stacker anyway.
Very interesting to see the ceramic cartridge as such having this manufactor initiated comeback.
It have these "build-in features" of first delivering an almost line level output and secondly attenuating the output as the frequency goes up, eliminating the need for a RIAA preamp. The end result might not correspond perfectly with RIAA and may very well be several dB off, but then again it's good enough for non-critical everyday listening purposes.
I'd love to see a test of a brand new, high quality pressing of some record played on audiophile grade equipment, with a blindfolded audiophile as the listener, and then play a copy of the same record that has been played 100 times, normally (no intentional abuse or misuse) on a Crosley, and see if they could actually, legitimately tell that there was any difference. The arguments on here about "6 grams will absolutely ruin a record" and "i looked at a track on a record that had been played to death on a heavy radio station cartridge" etc dont mean a single thing if you cant discerne a loss in sound quality without first doing a math equation and reading 3 years worth of r/vinyl posts. And don't even reply saying I DID THIS ITS REAL because I know none of you have ever done it. Not defending Crosleys, they're crap. I'd never own one. But I also play my records occasionally on old battery powered portable record players, and when they're back at home on my real turntable I'd never know they were now "completely destroyed and unplayable" or whatever. Just enjoy your music and hobby in whatever way is accessible to you, and stop being scared that your one of a trillion copies of your hit fleetwood mac record or whatever priceless artifact of 1976 is...still fine for all intents and purposes. Great video as usual.
I will make an exception for styrene 45s though. Those things get groove damage if you look at them funny.
@@buttguy as someone who is about to replace one for the 3rd time I concur
I will tell you… I started out with a crosley that was gifted to my mom. I bought some records, played them countless times. Then upgraded to a vintage elac idler wheel turntable, played them countless times again. Finally upgraded to a vintage denon direct drive automatic. The records most played on the crosley sound the most “used”. Yes I still enjoy them and spin them from time to time. The elac did also degrade them (because of non-adjustable cartridge position and anti-skate) but not as much as the crosley. Of course music is music and will always be enjoyable, but to me there is no doubt that records, especially ones with “quiet” passages will suffer to some degree. I will not deny that my current turntable still damages them, such is the way of the medium, and our hearing is “subjective” enough anyway. But I will argue that records that I have played restlessly on the elac sound much worse than the ones I bought when I already had the denon, and the ones I have since the crosley have even MORE playback noise.
I believe someone must not overthink such joyful aspects of life like music, in order to get full enjoyment, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say my older “well worn” records sound noticeable worse. Which is not a terrible thing per se, but since records are already very expensive, spending 4-5x the retail price of a new record on a decent used deck will make them enjoyable for longer.
This
It all adds up now. It also explains the later Stack-O-Matic record changers of the mid-2000s.
In addition to low-cost stereo systems under their own brand. Capetronic was also an OEM for other companies, including the famous Brother Domino II stereo (as well as my Brother Impact 33 which I sold a while ago). It makes sense that they would acquire BSR's patents for their record changers and record players. Before that acquisition, they tended to use BSR record changers (and when Glenburn was around, they used Glenburn). They also made the chassis for low-cost tabletop and freestanding console stereos.
Makes me wonder if they changed their name during the 2000s, since I can't find much info on Capetronic nowadays.
This video made my day. Thank you.
My grandparents Phillips stereo system, which they bought brand new in 1988 uses the second design, and they played their records nearly every day until they died about 2 years ago. Can confirm it doesn't destroy the records.
my cheap turntable mechanism sounds pretty decent connecting it to a pre-amp that has a ceramic cartridge selection
Loved this video. Good research. I learned a lot.
Frank
I wonder if Marty could have predicted that we would still have cheap record players in the future haha
Why do these cheap hoverboards suck on water so badly?
Because they are made by Chuo Denshi with the same basic design for 35 years.
Wow! Great history lesson, man! Crazy to think this record player mechanism has been around for over 30 years.
I got so much from viewing this very interesting.
I guess I'll be heckled off the stage for having a Technics SL1200 MKII turntable. However music is to enjoyed on whatever system you have. Cheers.
It's worth mentioning that your videos are of professional quality with regards to editing, in my opinion!
I know some old German brand called "Schneider" using it in some stereo systems. They mostly did very cheap lower end systems, so it's no surprise. Any higher end German manufacturer would have used those DUAL record players.
As opposed to a SINGLE record player, DUAL record players offer high speed dubbing....
... I'll see myself out now.
My mom had a Schneider Midi System (had nothing to do with the Midid interface). All components went wrong after a few years in some way, except the speakers. I actually use those as part of my hifi system because they re quite decent unlike the rest of the stereo system.
@@andreasu.3546 With one touch soft control? :D
@@timweber4318 Yes that's not very unlikely
@@DaXande135 The 45 rpm setting will copy an LP in only 73 % of the time!
This has been boh fascinating and informative. Thaknks, and Happy Holidays to you.
That BSR version is the same as on my Sear all in one stereo system in 1987
I've come across a few cheap, all-in-one stereos from the 90s that feature these turntable mechanisms. I'm surprised I didn't notice their resemblance to cheap contemporary units until you pointed them out!