The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It’s not that Kurt composed Live Through This, but likely influenced it in subtle ways. Maybe even advised Courtney at times. As 2 singer songwriters in a relationship, that’s bound to happen. Corgan’s influence on Celebrity Skin, on the other hand, is super obvious and not a secret.
When I used to pay attention and care about this stuff, I saw a video of a producer saying Nirvana recorded the live through this album before hole did.
@@dumpsterdollx…and then tried to downplay the extent of his contributions and by his own admissions didn’t give him credit on the songs he did write. Eric E claimed he wrote the music on Malibu. Sounds like classic Corgan to me including how the verse is sung and even the lyrics.
How do you figure? The album Live Through This was already complete as were all the songs on it when he died, they changed the song Rockstar to Olympia for obvious reasons and her next album wasn't until years later and written with Billy Corgan. You think Kurt wrote Celebrity Skin about waking up in his dress and makeup?
@@marcen12 Exactly. It's infuriating, in the 90s people loved kicking her when she was down and today it's the same but by children on the internet who haven't even got a clue and weren't even born into years after he died. After everything she's already endured, it's sick. The woman is incredible. I met her a few times in the early 80s and she is just captivating. The moment she walks into a room all attention is on her. I suppose that's a blessing a curse, half the people admire her, the other half want to cause her pain. I love her.
Don't underestimate the role of Kristin Pfaff from Minneapolis or the fact that the album was produced by Sean Slade and Paul Q. Kolderie and mixed by Scott Litt and J Mascis. You should at least know the latter and perhaps also take a look at the reference lists of the other two. Pablo Honey? Ghost wrote? Yeah, Zeitgeist!
Billy had a major role in Celebrity Skin but Courtney still denied he had major involvement. She struggles to give anyone credit for anything. Her parents,her trust fund,any significant others, her former band mates. And then at the slightest criticism she deflects with someone just hating her due to being an anti feminist… as if she is infallible because she’s a female. Next do a video of the many inconsistencies of Courtney Love… then one thing will be clear… why no one can believe Courtney Love
Hard to say. So many bands at that time would cop elements of the big successful bands of that era. I was in a band then (actually played a show with hole), and after Soundgarden became influential all of a sudden everyone (ourselves included) were dropping down to D. After Alice In Chains? Spooky harmonies became a thing. Dont get me started with all the marble mouth singers that came out because of Eddie Vedder. And With Love literally sharing a bed with Cobain? id be surprised if his influence didn’t rub off on her! But I also think he probably did help her as well. Probably a bit of both influence and help.
If Billy helped her write music im pretty sure she got help from kurt as well right she hasn’t made anything that stood out I don’t believe she ever will or could 🎶✌🏽
The album had 12 songs and he collaborated on 5. For example, Hole wrote Celebrity Skin and when Billy heard it, he suggested the addition of the opening riff (something that gave him co-writing credits). Without Hole, the song wouldn't exist at all. The same with Dying (Hole's demo is onIine). That's not writing "most" of the album
I’m 43 soon to be 44 I have loved Nirvana since I was a kid. I am a fan of Cortney Love too. I remember seeing Hole at Lalapoolooza in 1995. Courtney Love was saying bad things about Bikini kill. Right after talking bad about Bikini Kill Courtney Love said something like “Let’s play that song that we wrote with Kurt!” She seemed to have said to her bandmates. Then they went into a song. I don’t remember what song it was. I love Hole though. So maybe they both influenced each other.
@@insertnamehere4419 Good for you my friend! I don’t expect everyone to listen to the same music and artists. Not the end of the world because you don’t like Nirvana. Thanks for sharing
Not ONE mention of her ACTUAL first album Pretty on the inside - Only ignorant people say Live through this is the first album. Prettyt On the Inside was a good album in it's own right, dirtier and grungier, but it shows clearly that Courtney and Hole were not ripping off Kurt - they had their own thing going and it was pretty good. Certainly live through this had Kurt influence, and they were a couple so surely he gave her pointers and maybe collabed a little but, but Hole had their sound before Kurt. This album is just more focused and polished.
@@willaerley7140 Kurt helped, sure. he even sang background vocals in a couple of songs from Live Through This. But people are like "He wrote everything." without proof.
Not necessarily, some songwriters have a streak and then run out of steam. Plus there's all kinds of reasons why songwriters become inactive, she did a fourth Hole record with a new band when no-one from the original band wanted to work with her anymore, when that predictably imploded she did a solo record. Her best work is clearly the stuff when she had good people around her helping her make the best of her songwriting, but there's no doubt in my mind that she's a very talented songwriter and the soul in her songs is hers.
@@timothymcnaughton531 the soul in her singing is hers but the soul in the style of music on those big albums certainly isn't. She clearly had a lot of help and seriously sponged off of others, would have to be pretty blind not to see that, along with basically burning every bridge she ever had is very telling as well, you basically admit no one wanting to work with her ever again. She was always very desperate for fame and clearly a very selfish person, constantly downplaying others influences and overplaying her own.
@@tmorelli1982 and is that you explaining to me why I have no idea too? lol She might have had some skills lyrically but she clearly relied on others for all the instrumentals and the actual tone of the songs. Show me some interviews or comments of hers where she credits the help of other band members or Billy's contributions on Celebrity Skin? All I see is her downplaying others and trying to take credit for stuff. Another classic example too where the vocalist gets a lot of attention and fame while other contributors and band members are non existent.
I remember reading an interview with Kurt or watching an interview where he states whenever he comes up with a riff at home Courtney jumps on it & says can I have that? And Kurt sheepishly says he replies go ahead take it. Then he further stated he will even hide in a closet to play guitar & work on coming up with riffs where she can’t necessarily hear him for fear she‘ll ask to take whatever new he is working.
There was a movie or something or an interview where he was talking about writing songs and she was in the background saying ooh can i have that i remember something like that
@@ladnercr1 I remember that interview too. How Kurt was hiding in a closet strumming riffs when the closet door bursts open and Courtney saying "that's amazing! I want to use that!!!'
Billy corgan wrote a lot of stuff. His chord progression and vocal lines are very obvious. Ironically the first album pretty on the inside was great which was Eric 's music and Courtney 's words.
Guys do you know that there are bootleg versions of violet as early as November 1991 or even earlier. At that point kurt and Courtney just literally started seeing each other. I doubt he would ghost write for her after a couple weeks of intermittent dating.
Yes, I can back you up on that, I noticed the same. It's not that I want to defend courtney but it's not because she's dark that she can't have talent...
@@nicholaskruger9460 yes but we were talking about kurt writing Courtney’s songs, so pretty on the inside got nothing to do with what we’re talking about in the video because kurt wasn’t in the pic when poti was written. I wrote my comment to those that keep believing that kurt wrote live through this. He may have helped or influenced it for sure but there’s proof that Courtney had some songs before she started dating kurt but the ppl that say otherwise are just not informed
It’s no coincidence that Live Through This sounded like Nirvana and Celebrity Skin sounded like Smashing Pumpkins. The difference is Billy Corgan could never allow himself to go uncredited
@@notsure1135 if you look hard enough you can start seeing billy riffs everywhere, it's called bias. especially if you're saying that about the whole album.
@lippi2171 it's a bit sad the video is about an era in which authenticity was everything, and it's obviously narrated by AI (if not composed by it) with seemingly no editorial attention to what it's saying. I turned it off five minutes in.
@@JP-ve7or didn't watch it either. It's obviously AI yeah. The channel used to be good and informative, but they switched to weird uncanny valley material
Some of those songs were written before she even knew Kurt. She had songs & a album before she dated Billy & Kurt & she had songs after Kurt's death as well. Kurt was on backing vocals on LTT Whoop de f**kin do. This was no secret.
I would have to say they both were in each other’s music writing because in a interview Kurt says how he liked to listen to Courtney’s music while she was making it and Courtney did that same so I feel that would have influenced both to make hole sound a bit like nirvana and for Nirvana to get more good with lyrics
no lol Kurt definitely didn't need courtney that's a fact he wrote nevermind before they even started dating and he was just flattering her in that interview since she was his girl it's pretty obvious that she has little songwriting talent otherwise she would've had a lot more hits before meeting Kurt and after his death
Who wrote that song shown on Hit So Hard ? I believe it's called Stinkin' of You. It seems it was a melody of Vourtney's, I love that riff. If she wrote that then I can believe she has some potential to have written most of her own stuff
Singing the whole song Asking for it? He sang in a few snippets?? Also pretty on the inside was recorded and made before she met Kurt. Courtney Love was the muse for In Utero and helped Kurt write music on In Utero.. Always belittling a musician because of sexism and her persona.
Well, there's one little fact that most people miss. Courtney can't play the guitar, at all, not one note. She has admitted this, even saying a couple years ago that she was taking lessons to finally learn how to play the guitar. I love her vocals and lyrics, but she is unable to write music.
I don’t like Courtney but I do admit. She has a wonderful voice but the rest like the guitar lyrics are meh not sure about that part- but this is just me personally lol
So many things pointing to Kurt writing songs on this album. The cord progressions, lyrics & quite-loud dynamics on many of the songs, the fact that Billy Corgan wrote their next album, and the fact that nowhere in the liner notes was Kurt mentioned or thanked even though it's a fact he sang backup vocals on at least one of the album's songs. Plus, Courtney is such a leech-fraud in general.
Most singers don’t write all of their songs. Big bands like the Beatles or Fleetwood Mac not only had at least 3 of the band members writing lyrics, but they also contributed to music composition. I don’t think a song like Fleetwood Mac’s « Dreams » would have been as good if only Stevie would have written it, yet it is her song. Collaborative art makes it difficult to know when one’s influence stops and another starts because people with bounce off of each other with ideas. Courtney Love was not the best song writer or music composer with Hole’s first album « Pretty on the Inside ». Though there is wonderful potential in the lyrics with « Teenage Whore » or « Good Sister / Bad sister ». With those songs, one car hear how they could be influenced the Nirvana way or the Smashing Pumpking way. I believe that Hole with Courtney Love as a major influence did write the lyrics, gave the themes, the ambiance. Did she write all the music? That I have more doubts. Probably the band was able to put a general structure, and they then had help from an editor / producer to go in the direction they wanted. But to state that just because Live Through This sounds like Nirvana is completely forgetting the times and the releases there were in those days… Everyone wanted to sound like Nirvana. The difference with Nirvana and Hole is that the themese evocked by Hole are personal to Love’s life, and to being a woman, and they are more concrete thoughts that Cobain’s poetics.
Patty Shimmel (Hole's drummer) wrote in her book that Courtney worked best with producers who took her ideas and reworked them into melodic songs. Courtney didn't do well alone. Patty lived with Courtney and Kurt and had no reason to hide the truth. If Kurt wrote Hole's songs, Patty would have known.
If you know anything about Billy Corgan and have listened extensivley to his demos, then you cannot come to any other conclusion than he wrote Malibu! The chord progression, vocal phrasing and everything else has his hallmarks all over it. When Jools Holland on his show Later.. asked Courtney what the song was about her exact words were 'I don't know' - that's because she didn't write it!
Billy Corgan is properly credited on Malibu as is Eric Erlandson. She claims he only helped with the composition and arrangement though. I don't really think it is that important to debate it when someone is properly credited. It was a collaboration that he is getting royalties for.
@@JetWindTV The scope of his input has been debated though even by Corgan himself! Love at the time of its release played down his input. I remember reading that Eric claimed he came up with the chord sequence. I call BS on that as the verse chord structure and melody has all the hallmarks of Corgan’s sound. The official title at the time for Corgan’s input was that he was just at the recording sessions as a consultant. He was clearly more than that. Corgan has actually said he wrote most of the album, even the songs he isn’t credited on!
Interesting that there is no analysis of their first album, Pretty on the Inside. It didn’t exactly have much in terms of hooks, perhaps that’s what she struggled with the most.
courtney's actually got the potential for her music but the problem is her characteristics ofc held her back. if she wasnt anything like this, id bet she woudlnt be competing against, rather competing with modern hiphop music today. its sad to see people who still refuse to budge regardless.
I dont believe that, but i do believe she stole kurts lyrcs from his writings after he died. The lyrics from the song "celebrity skin" just sounds straight out of kurts lyric book
and yo you should do your next video about how the drummer for Nirvana actually wrote all the songs for the singer of the Foo Fighters.. yo thats a true conspiracy
Well that’s obviously not true because in order to cope with Kurt’s death Dave wrote and recorded the first album in a very short period of time! (Idk how much) but yeah…
I gotta say, there's a difference between someone influencing a song/album by introducing subject matter, or even being a muse VS. literally writing songs for the album. Those are not the same thing. So, comparing CL's influence to In Utero to Kurt's alleged influence on Live Through This are two very different things. People have no problem with her writing songs for/about Kurt; but they feel misled when it seems like Kurt's alleged songwriting contribution was not acknowledged. Maybe that's how he wanted it, anyway. Or maybe his contribution was minimal - I don't know. But those things are not comparable is my point.
I believe he helped and influenced in the album put word choices here and there but that’s all I don’t think he wrote the WHOLE album but that’s my personal opinion
Tracy is the right answer. Mary was an obsessed fan who Iied to him from the start. Anyone would have made the same choice: stick with the girl who had been friends with his drummer for years and had been on tour with his band, and dump the girl he'd known only for a few weeks who Iied and wasn't close with anyone he knew. I don't blame him for choosing Courtney over Mary, but I do for getting rid of Tracy.
@@revminTphresh I think you're thinking of Tobi Vale from Bikini Kill. Tracy was Kurt's first girlfriend before he had any success. Nevermind was written when Kurt was with Tobi, with much of it reflecting his relationship with her.
When the whole Napster thing blew up, Courtney wrote a very comprehensive and brilliant article on the controversy and how the record industry works. It was so brilliant that the first thing people ask was "Who wrote it for you Courtney???" Many, and myself included, think she got somebody to write that article for her.
Well, "Violet" was performed in many older Hole shows - before they really hooked up. Also, I really feel like people putting Kurt as the writer of all these songs does definitely disregard the contributions that Kristen, Patti, and Eric put into the band. People will have their say, but it just seems people won't dig deep before making these accusations..
If Craig said that then he contridicted himself somewhat because if Courtney heavily influenced In Utero, then it stands to reason Kurt heavily influenced Live Through This, particularly that album, because its the stand out record in Hole's discography.
Everyone involved. There were a lot of cooks in that broth. They all affected + enabled + disabled each other, in such a way that unique albums were borne.
It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to figure out a Courtney has absolutely zero talent. If she wouldn’t have hitched her box car to the Cobain train at best she would be a footnote in the history of music . Also let’s not forget that Hole as of today over 30 years later Hope has only sold 10% record sales compared to Nirvana. It’s a shame he didn’t stay with Tracy Marander.
I always say that hole is like the underdog to Nirvana like the sister band of Nirvana and I mean they had been married together and had the same taste
Everyone knows that Corgan wrote Celebrity skin and she stole You lnow you're right from Kurt. As for Live through this, just listen to Pretty on the inside which is a horrendous mess of random noise from start to finish. No chance she wrote live through this without serious help from someone.
Everyone has influence on each other. To say your married to a musician who writes music, and be with them for two years and say it doesn't Influence you would be a lie. It's not Kurt or Courtney where lead guitarists or something. No they where from the gritty underground,and came to the forefront when rock songwriting evolved back to something more basic,yet rocked, yet had complex melody in the music at times. I don't like Courtney but I can't take anything away from her on that front.sure maybe she sucks at writing,but maybe Kurt did as well until he met her. We just don't really know. We don't know a lot about how the songs came to be,and how long or short it took to hammer certain things out. Kurt definitely was a revisionist and had ideas sitting around for years that got demo'd than just sat. That's part of his greatness, is that scatterbrain approach to having all these bits and pieces of paper and riffs and drawings and paintings and writings and poetry and absurd bullshlt just scattered around his living space. Sometimes a song could be easily written and be done, but much like Ozzy with black Sabbath or john Lennon, there are versions of things where lyrics and melodies where tried in different ways and even sometimes the 'final' version wasn't so final. I bet if Kurt lived on he'd have changed lyrics or parts to songs they continually play Just to keep things fresh. Or certain songs would be dropped for years before randomly popping back up in the set.the scattered approach is definitely way more interesting than say a band like Metallica, who just plays it the same for 40 years, and maybe only changes the last few notes at the end for live feel so it isn't as abrupt or bland as the album ending
She definitely had help and won't acknowledge the people who helped her but she did have the talent and guts to chase a dream of forming a band and getting herself out there. I'm not the biggest fan of hers but at least she tried to do something that most only dream of.
The real genius behind the hole tunes sounds like it was mostly a group of or at least multiple people who were closer to regular than genius talented sure i dont think it took a genius to write a hole tune
They both dipped in that hole. That in itself is worse than her spreading for chorus and chord progression. It's obvious. Her album was filled with demos of Kurt.
He never wrote it. Where is the proof? It's a baseless rumor. All the band members straight up say the only thing he did WAS sing on a couple of tracks. It was confirmed that Corgan wrote five songs so WHERE do they say Kurt wrote LTT?
@@marcen12 Indeed, his role was only indirect, since he and Kristen Pfaff were talking on the phone for hours on multiple occasions, and surely they bounced ideas off each other. Again, that's very indirect; much of the music is the result of Kristen's classical training.
@@scottcharney1091 And also, she had an unintended hand with In Utero since the lyrics were a lot more direct than Nevermind. I never hear anyone talk about THAT.
@@scottcharney1091 On Nevermind, the lyrics were a bit more vague and contradictory. Sure, there were clear moments like on Polly and In Bloom, but a lot of the time, the lyrics on that album were somewhat contradictory at times. When In Utero came out, the songwriting changed because Love's own lyrics on Hole's albums were a LOT more direct. So, in a way, In Utero is full of In Bloom songs if they were raw, angrier and intense, while still having hooks. It's if Nirvana looked at Hole's first album and said "We could do that in our own way."
Even the very first time I listened to "Live Through This" (kickass album, no matter what), I suspected that Kurt had at least a major role in the writing, specially "Gutless", which sounds like a straight-up Nirvana song.
That reminds me of the story between elliott smith and jennifer chiba, everything goes down at the point elliott helped her to edit her band’s album. Same story but different 😅
My anxiety peaks everytime the narrator says "live" through this.
Same 😄
Not anxiety, more like annoyance and anger.
Yep
Yes totally, AI voice over for yeah
AI bot voice. Duh.
It’s never as simple as what people think.
Ha, simple sentence says everything
But you are.
Your side, my side and the truth...
gotta go listen to Warheads now.
I had no idea Hole played You Know You’re Right unplugged back in 95. She definitely wanted to use that one
she said it was Kurt's last song and that they didn't do it well but it was their tribute to him. She never played it again.
@@julesvan I want those people who write lies to get famous to people can write lies about them.
THAT!? Was the surprise to me n this vid
She also changed lyrics in the song to give it a different connotation
@@marcen12 That's very lyrical. I'm gonna steal that and get rich.. I swear I'll give you a cut.
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It’s not that Kurt composed Live Through This, but likely influenced it in subtle ways. Maybe even advised Courtney at times. As 2 singer songwriters in a relationship, that’s bound to happen. Corgan’s influence on Celebrity Skin, on the other hand, is super obvious and not a secret.
When I used to pay attention and care about this stuff, I saw a video of a producer saying Nirvana recorded the live through this album before hole did.
@@jaymann7893complete and utter BS. Grow up and go back to bed.
Billy Corgan definitely wrote “Malibu”; it’s got all of his guitar-isms all throughout
@@dumpsterdollx…and then tried to downplay the extent of his contributions and by his own admissions didn’t give him credit on the songs he did write. Eric E claimed he wrote the music on Malibu. Sounds like classic Corgan to me including how the verse is sung and even the lyrics.
True.
the only song I like of hers ironically - definitely agree it's not hers
You mean do I believe Courtney Love used demos Kurt was working on before he passed away? ABSOLUTELY
Frrrr
How do you figure? The album Live Through This was already complete as were all the songs on it when he died, they changed the song Rockstar to Olympia for obvious reasons and her next album wasn't until years later and written with Billy Corgan. You think Kurt wrote Celebrity Skin about waking up in his dress and makeup?
@@jimjames4348 Some people don't like Courtney so they downplay all her accomplishments by saying someone else did it.
@@marcen12 Exactly. It's infuriating, in the 90s people loved kicking her when she was down and today it's the same but by children on the internet who haven't even got a clue and weren't even born into years after he died. After everything she's already endured, it's sick. The woman is incredible. I met her a few times in the early 80s and she is just captivating. The moment she walks into a room all attention is on her. I suppose that's a blessing a curse, half the people admire her, the other half want to cause her pain. I love her.
@@jimjames4348 I kind of want the people who hate Love and downplay her talents to get popular and see how THAT feels.
Oh my God even her Unplugged has the same ambient and decorations as Nirvana's!
They all did.
At times it did feel like they were like "if you like kurt Cobain we have a female version of him now....
Don't underestimate the role of Kristin Pfaff from Minneapolis or the fact that the album was produced by Sean Slade and Paul Q. Kolderie and mixed by Scott Litt and J Mascis. You should at least know the latter and perhaps also take a look at the reference lists of the other two. Pablo Honey? Ghost wrote? Yeah, Zeitgeist!
Kurt and Billy were heavily involved. End of Story.
Pretty much.
I'm just gonna dismiss everything I heard in this video and add "End of Story" to my statement. That'll be a compelling argument.
Kurt wrote easily amused.
billy contributed to celebrity skin NOT live through this
Not when her band was more famous than Nirvana in the beginning and before they were a couple
lol
Billy had a major role in Celebrity Skin but Courtney still denied he had major involvement. She struggles to give anyone credit for anything. Her parents,her trust fund,any significant others, her former band mates. And then at the slightest criticism she deflects with someone just hating her due to being an anti feminist… as if she is infallible because she’s a female. Next do a video of the many inconsistencies of Courtney Love… then one thing will be clear… why no one can believe Courtney Love
Fr
She talks about how he wrote the main riff. Pay attention.
Even if this is true, why should any of us care? What is this? Gossip Tube?
Wow. Incredibly inaccurate, biased and spiteful, almost to the point of psychological warfare. You really hate her!
she would likely have gone further if she just accepted crediting others openly.
Hard to say. So many bands at that time would cop elements of the big successful bands of that era. I was in a band then (actually played a show with hole), and after Soundgarden became influential all of a sudden everyone (ourselves included) were dropping down to D. After Alice In Chains? Spooky harmonies became a thing. Dont get me started with all the marble mouth singers that came out because of Eddie Vedder. And With Love literally sharing a bed with Cobain? id be surprised if his influence didn’t rub off on her! But I also think he probably did help her as well. Probably a bit of both influence and help.
Those sounds were around way before Nirvava or Pearl Jam .. like in 1984
If Billy helped her write music im pretty sure she got help from kurt as well right she hasn’t made anything that stood out I don’t believe she ever will or could 🎶✌🏽
Yeah
Might not be true, but Billy definitely wrote most of Celebrity Skin.
Is this voice AI?
That's not a secret though.
@@Lukelykethere was no AI in the 90's genius.
The album had 12 songs and he collaborated on 5. For example, Hole wrote Celebrity Skin and when Billy heard it, he suggested the addition of the opening riff (something that gave him co-writing credits). Without Hole, the song wouldn't exist at all. The same with Dying (Hole's demo is onIine). That's not writing "most" of the album
They meant AI narrating the video, genius.
I’m 43 soon to be 44 I have loved Nirvana since I was a kid. I am a fan of Cortney Love too. I remember seeing Hole at Lalapoolooza in 1995. Courtney Love was saying bad things about Bikini kill. Right after talking bad about Bikini Kill Courtney Love said something like “Let’s play that song that we wrote with Kurt!” She seemed to have said to her bandmates. Then they went into a song. I don’t remember what song it was. I love Hole though. So maybe they both influenced each other.
"since" you were a kid? I loved them when I was a kid...then I grew up.
@@insertnamehere4419 Good for you my friend! I don’t expect everyone to listen to the same music and artists. Not the end of the world because you don’t like Nirvana. Thanks for sharing
@@insertnamehere4419I still love nirvana lol but not hole- 😅
@insertnamehere4419 Who cares you don't listen to nirvana anymore , yeah only you care
Who ever wrote it.... Live through this is a very good album. Enjoy it! ❤️☀️🤗
Thnx to kurdt
Kurt wrote it. Courtney had good voice on it.
Not ONE mention of her ACTUAL first album Pretty on the inside - Only ignorant people say Live through this is the first album. Prettyt On the Inside was a good album in it's own right, dirtier and grungier, but it shows clearly that Courtney and Hole were not ripping off Kurt - they had their own thing going and it was pretty good. Certainly live through this had Kurt influence, and they were a couple so surely he gave her pointers and maybe collabed a little but, but Hole had their sound before Kurt. This album is just more focused and polished.
Was looking for this comment. My then gf, now wife, had the cassette in 92 . It’s a very good raw album. Teenage whore is classic.
I agree with this completely. I don't know why people say Kurt wrote everything, like they can prove it. But they can't.
@@marcen12Kurt definitely helped. Watch his interview in Brazil. He admits how much he enjoyed listening to her music and making suggestions.
@@willaerley7140 Kurt helped, sure. he even sang background vocals in a couple of songs from Live Through This. But people are like "He wrote everything." without proof.
So much of LTT's music and overall sound came from Kristen Pfaff. RIP, and Justice for Kristen!
He definitely wrote it as Billy did with celebrity skin. If Cortney has any song writing ability she have a lot more albums
spot on
Not necessarily, some songwriters have a streak and then run out of steam. Plus there's all kinds of reasons why songwriters become inactive, she did a fourth Hole record with a new band when no-one from the original band wanted to work with her anymore, when that predictably imploded she did a solo record. Her best work is clearly the stuff when she had good people around her helping her make the best of her songwriting, but there's no doubt in my mind that she's a very talented songwriter and the soul in her songs is hers.
@@timothymcnaughton531 the soul in her singing is hers but the soul in the style of music on those big albums certainly isn't. She clearly had a lot of help and seriously sponged off of others, would have to be pretty blind not to see that, along with basically burning every bridge she ever had is very telling as well, you basically admit no one wanting to work with her ever again. She was always very desperate for fame and clearly a very selfish person, constantly downplaying others influences and overplaying her own.
You definitely have no idea what you're talking about
@@tmorelli1982 and is that you explaining to me why I have no idea too? lol She might have had some skills lyrically but she clearly relied on others for all the instrumentals and the actual tone of the songs. Show me some interviews or comments of hers where she credits the help of other band members or Billy's contributions on Celebrity Skin? All I see is her downplaying others and trying to take credit for stuff. Another classic example too where the vocalist gets a lot of attention and fame while other contributors and band members are non existent.
I remember reading an interview with Kurt or watching an interview where he states whenever he comes up with a riff at home Courtney jumps on it & says can I have that? And Kurt sheepishly says he replies go ahead take it. Then he further stated he will even hide in a closet to play guitar & work on coming up with riffs where she can’t necessarily hear him for fear she‘ll ask to take whatever new he is working.
He never said that. Fake news
@@maseratimitch2024 he did say that. i remember that interview as well. 'fake news' is lame AF btw.
@@ladnercr1you are right. I read this in a biography. CL would terrorize Kurt and scream at him to write riffs, etc for her.
There was a movie or something or an interview where he was talking about writing songs and she was in the background saying ooh can i have that i remember something like that
@@ladnercr1 I remember that interview too. How Kurt was hiding in a closet strumming riffs when the closet door bursts open and Courtney saying "that's amazing! I want to use that!!!'
If you listen to isolated tracks from her shows, she can’t even play her instrument. So how did she do it herself…
FRR
DAYUM i didn’t even know that
So true 😂
Complete BS.
@@VioIetRamirez ...because the OP made it up
Im sure Kurt and Billy Corgan wrote allot of her songs.
Billy corgan wrote a lot of stuff. His chord progression and vocal lines are very obvious. Ironically the first album pretty on the inside was great which was Eric 's music and Courtney 's words.
You would be wrong
'Doll Parts' is a funny & sad song. That whole album is great.
Doll parts is beautiful
Guys do you know that there are bootleg versions of violet as early as November 1991 or even earlier. At that point kurt and Courtney just literally started seeing each other. I doubt he would ghost write for her after a couple weeks of intermittent dating.
Yes, I can back you up on that, I noticed the same. It's not that I want to defend courtney but it's not because she's dark that she can't have talent...
Before that is pretty on the inside
@@nicholaskruger9460 yes but we were talking about kurt writing Courtney’s songs, so pretty on the inside got nothing to do with what we’re talking about in the video because kurt wasn’t in the pic when poti was written. I wrote my comment to those that keep believing that kurt wrote live through this. He may have helped or influenced it for sure but there’s proof that Courtney had some songs before she started dating kurt but the ppl that say otherwise are just not informed
It’s no coincidence that Live Through This sounded like Nirvana and Celebrity Skin sounded like Smashing Pumpkins.
The difference is Billy Corgan could never allow himself to go uncredited
She had an album before LTT. Pretty on the Inside before she knew Kurt & Billy.
Miss World is a Pumpkins song, sung by a murderer…
"Celebrity Skin sounded like Smashing Pumpkins."
me if I hadn listened to celebrity skin and the SP discography before
@@croay but it does sound like a Billy riff.
@@notsure1135 if you look hard enough you can start seeing billy riffs everywhere, it's called bias. especially if you're saying that about the whole album.
It’s live through this, not live through this! 😆
AI BS
It's a bit sad that it's an entire video about about the said album and they couldn't get the name right, AI or not...
@lippi2171 it's a bit sad the video is about an era in which authenticity was everything, and it's obviously narrated by AI (if not composed by it) with seemingly no editorial attention to what it's saying. I turned it off five minutes in.
@@JP-ve7or didn't watch it either. It's obviously AI yeah. The channel used to be good and informative, but they switched to weird uncanny valley material
huh?
The woman is a vampire in so many ways
Centuries ago, she would've been burnt
FRR
TRANSGENDER
TRANSGENDER
@@gracielamago4170
- or Transpecies
In my high school clique we all thought he wrote those songs. It wasn’t a secret.
I was 17 at a different high school. So did we.
Some of those songs were written before she even knew Kurt. She had songs & a album before she dated Billy & Kurt & she had songs after Kurt's death as well. Kurt was on backing vocals on LTT Whoop de f**kin do. This was no secret.
@@Somethingwicked1xcalm down Courtney
@@lieutenantdan2217 lol not Courtney just saying she wrote music before Kurt.
@@Somethingwicked1x considering your coherent response... I believe you
In short, no .. when he was visiting the studio he wasn't even familiar with the material (per Sean Slade and Paul Kolderie)
0:51 Dave gives he thoughts,, "I don't know"! Some thoughts on it.
Doll parts? I mean come on. Kurt was obsessed with dolls
and she literally wrote it as an homage to him. she’s not stupid, lmaooo
He probably helped her melodies on that album, Billy definitely wrote for her tho I think we can all agree on that
She's the Nancy Spungen of the 90s. Don't try to change my mind.
Kind of a mix between Nancy & Sid.. I definitely think that's exactly what she was going for too
Yup only this time sid died first 💯
I agree with this
Courney Love is the human embodiment of a half-smoked Virginia Slim. It was gross to begin with, but now it's nothing but pure bitterness and tar.
LOL
I would have to say they both were in each other’s music writing because in a interview Kurt says how he liked to listen to Courtney’s music while she was making it and Courtney did that same so I feel that would have influenced both to make hole sound a bit like nirvana and for Nirvana to get more good with lyrics
no lol Kurt definitely didn't need courtney that's a fact he wrote nevermind before they even started dating and he was just flattering her in that interview since she was his girl it's pretty obvious that she has little songwriting talent otherwise she would've had a lot more hits before meeting Kurt and after his death
Celebrity skin was a great album. I don’t care who wrote. That whole album slapped.
Kurt Cobain obviously had major input on the album.
I really like your channel and your approach to these topics, very mature, fair, diplomatic and sane.
What about their Pretty On The Inside album? Live Through This was not the first Hole LP. Omitting that kinda compromises your whole criticism here. 💯
Who wrote that song shown on Hit So Hard ? I believe it's called Stinkin' of You. It seems it was a melody of Vourtney's, I love that riff. If she wrote that then I can believe she has some potential to have written most of her own stuff
Singing the whole song Asking for it? He sang in a few snippets?? Also pretty on the inside was recorded and made before she met Kurt. Courtney Love was the muse for In Utero and helped Kurt write music on In Utero.. Always belittling a musician because of sexism and her persona.
Please what's the name of the background song you used man. Yet another great vid I've watched.
Courtney helping Kurt write In Utero😂. The overstatement of the year thats for sure!
Influence is diff than actually writing Melodie’s. Which she had no part of
@@neonbible08she did help write utero she shared her journal with him to help him write poems
It sounds nothing like Kurt would write.
Disagree. It sounds nothing like anything he would USE. Write and throw away? Pretty good chance.
100% agree
Stone Temple Pilots has a song called "Too Cool Queenie", which is clearly about Courtney Love.
Stone Temple Pilots Kravitz a lot of their songs.
@@rbruggeman7722what?
That song rules. That WHOLE album is so good haha. Can't stand cl
I really think big bang baby is about kurt killing himself
In Utero is anything but "an attempt at commercial."
What's that song playing through this video and really audible at the end of the vid
Your AI voice-over pronounced Live Through This Wrong.
Holes first album was “pretty on the inside” it came out in 91. For the record it was less melodic more screaming.
Well, there's one little fact that most people miss. Courtney can't play the guitar, at all, not one note. She has admitted this, even saying a couple years ago that she was taking lessons to finally learn how to play the guitar.
I love her vocals and lyrics, but she is unable to write music.
I don’t like Courtney but I do admit. She has a wonderful voice but the rest like the guitar lyrics are meh not sure about that part- but this is just me personally lol
So many things pointing to Kurt writing songs on this album. The cord progressions, lyrics & quite-loud dynamics on many of the songs, the fact that Billy Corgan wrote their next album, and the fact that nowhere in the liner notes was Kurt mentioned or thanked even though it's a fact he sang backup vocals on at least one of the album's songs. Plus, Courtney is such a leech-fraud in general.
Most singers don’t write all of their songs. Big bands like the Beatles or Fleetwood Mac not only had at least 3 of the band members writing lyrics, but they also contributed to music composition. I don’t think a song like Fleetwood Mac’s « Dreams » would have been as good if only Stevie would have written it, yet it is her song. Collaborative art makes it difficult to know when one’s influence stops and another starts because people with bounce off of each other with ideas.
Courtney Love was not the best song writer or music composer with Hole’s first album « Pretty on the Inside ». Though there is wonderful potential in the lyrics with « Teenage Whore » or « Good Sister / Bad sister ». With those songs, one car hear how they could be influenced the Nirvana way or the Smashing Pumpking way.
I believe that Hole with Courtney Love as a major influence did write the lyrics, gave the themes, the ambiance. Did she write all the music? That I have more doubts. Probably the band was able to put a general structure, and they then had help from an editor / producer to go in the direction they wanted.
But to state that just because Live Through This sounds like Nirvana is completely forgetting the times and the releases there were in those days… Everyone wanted to sound like Nirvana.
The difference with Nirvana and Hole is that the themese evocked by Hole are personal to Love’s life, and to being a woman, and they are more concrete thoughts that Cobain’s poetics.
Patty Shimmel (Hole's drummer) wrote in her book that Courtney worked best with producers who took her ideas and reworked them into melodic songs. Courtney didn't do well alone. Patty lived with Courtney and Kurt and had no reason to hide the truth. If Kurt wrote Hole's songs, Patty would have known.
If you know anything about Billy Corgan and have listened extensivley to his demos, then you cannot come to any other conclusion than he wrote Malibu! The chord progression, vocal phrasing and everything else has his hallmarks all over it. When Jools Holland on his show Later.. asked Courtney what the song was about her exact words were 'I don't know' - that's because she didn't write it!
Billy Corgan is properly credited on Malibu as is Eric Erlandson. She claims he only helped with the composition and arrangement though. I don't really think it is that important to debate it when someone is properly credited. It was a collaboration that he is getting royalties for.
@@JetWindTV The scope of his input has been debated though even by Corgan himself! Love at the time of its release played down his input. I remember reading that Eric claimed he came up with the chord sequence. I call BS on that as the verse chord structure and melody has all the hallmarks of Corgan’s sound. The official title at the time for Corgan’s input was that he was just at the recording sessions as a consultant. He was clearly more than that. Corgan has actually said he wrote most of the album, even the songs he isn’t credited on!
Interesting that there is no analysis of their first album, Pretty on the Inside. It didn’t exactly have much in terms of hooks, perhaps that’s what she struggled with the most.
courtney's actually got the potential for her music but the problem is her characteristics ofc held her back. if she wasnt anything like this, id bet she woudlnt be competing against, rather competing with modern hiphop music today. its sad to see people who still refuse to budge regardless.
I don't think she even makes music anymore at this point.
Hole was way popular in the 90’s before Nirvana but they fell off all of a sudden
I have long suspected that Kurk ghost wrote at least some of Hole's songs.
I dont believe that, but i do believe she stole kurts lyrcs from his writings after he died. The lyrics from the song "celebrity skin" just sounds straight out of kurts lyric book
and yo you should do your next video about how the drummer for Nirvana actually wrote all the songs for the singer of the Foo Fighters.. yo thats a true conspiracy
Well that’s obviously not true because in order to cope with Kurt’s death Dave wrote and recorded the first album in a very short period of time! (Idk how much) but yeah…
@@m4ke_yourself Ya exactly Dave the drummer for Nirvana wrote all the songs for the singer of the foo fighters 😱🤯
Dude it's plain as day, Kurt's influence all over live through this.
I gotta say, there's a difference between someone influencing a song/album by introducing subject matter, or even being a muse VS. literally writing songs for the album.
Those are not the same thing. So, comparing CL's influence to In Utero to Kurt's alleged influence on Live Through This are two very different things.
People have no problem with her writing songs for/about Kurt; but they feel misled when it seems like Kurt's alleged songwriting contribution was not acknowledged.
Maybe that's how he wanted it, anyway. Or maybe his contribution was minimal - I don't know.
But those things are not comparable is my point.
I believe he helped and influenced in the album put word choices here and there but that’s all I don’t think he wrote the WHOLE album but that’s my personal opinion
Kurt should have stayed with Mary. He'd still be alive today.
Tracy is the right answer. Mary was an obsessed fan who Iied to him from the start. Anyone would have made the same choice: stick with the girl who had been friends with his drummer for years and had been on tour with his band, and dump the girl he'd known only for a few weeks who Iied and wasn't close with anyone he knew. I don't blame him for choosing Courtney over Mary, but I do for getting rid of Tracy.
@@julesvan i think tracy dropped kurt because he wanted a monogamous relationship and she didnt.
@@revminTphresh I think you're thinking of Tobi Vale from Bikini Kill. Tracy was Kurt's first girlfriend before he had any success. Nevermind was written when Kurt was with Tobi, with much of it reflecting his relationship with her.
Mary was a teetotaler. That relationship would have never worked out.
Not true he was using heroin. Nobody lives a long life on that crap
Oh wow, I always heard that Doll Parts was written Kurt.
When the whole Napster thing blew up, Courtney wrote a very comprehensive and brilliant article on the controversy and how the record industry works. It was so brilliant that the first thing people ask was "Who wrote it for you Courtney???" Many, and myself included, think she got somebody to write that article for her.
Well, "Violet" was performed in many older Hole shows - before they really hooked up. Also, I really feel like people putting Kurt as the writer of all these songs does definitely disregard the contributions that Kristen, Patti, and Eric put into the band. People will have their say, but it just seems people won't dig deep before making these accusations..
Hole was a band, it wasn't just Courtney. Eric, Patti, and Kristen were equally talented musicians and writers.
I’ve been saying this since 1994. It was the only thing I could think about the day Kurt’s death was announced.
Being influenced and straight up writing material is a whole different thing
Re: photo and script at 6:49, it was definitely Tower Records in 1991, not Virgin.
Its weird she was in the sid and nancy movie then she became nancy. Trippy
You can talk and talk all you want, the facts show that Courtney is mainly a hack.
Who knows you can't believe anything she says,Billy said he did help Courtney,she can't put down music on paper
If Craig said that then he contridicted himself somewhat because if Courtney heavily influenced In Utero, then it stands to reason Kurt heavily influenced Live Through This, particularly that album, because its the stand out record in Hole's discography.
The only stand out record in Hole’s discography.
Everyone involved. There were a lot of cooks in that broth. They all affected + enabled + disabled each other, in such a way that unique albums were borne.
It's not "Live Through This" as in performing "live". It's live as in being alive...
It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to figure out a Courtney has absolutely zero talent. If she wouldn’t have hitched her box car to the Cobain train at best she would be a footnote in the history of music . Also let’s not forget that Hole as of today over 30 years later Hope has only sold 10% record sales compared to Nirvana. It’s a shame he didn’t stay with Tracy Marander.
Too much to say she had no talent. Pretty on the Inside is a good album.
@@Hilaire_Balrog Love has talent. The people who hate her think that she's talentless, despite the fact that they can't do the same.
@@marcen12yeah she’s a hell of an actress
@@buddingvenus81 She really is good in Moon on the Moon.
A lot of her songs sound very similar to Kurt's. Makes ya wonder.🤔
That whole scene was similar
So if duh
To be fair everyone was trying to sound like Nirvana around that time
@@peytonlong5573
You must be deaf
No way
Was not a thing
@@natandjai yes it was lol several rip off nirvana type bands
I always say that hole is like the underdog to Nirvana like the sister band of Nirvana and I mean they had been married together and had the same taste
Everyone knows that Corgan wrote Celebrity skin and she stole You lnow you're right from Kurt. As for Live through this, just listen to Pretty on the inside which is a horrendous mess of random noise from start to finish. No chance she wrote live through this without serious help from someone.
Love is disgusting smh..kurt should have hooked up with Kristen.👍🏻
Her first album.
PRETTY ON THE INSIDE.
I loved that album. That had nothing to do with kurt cause they didn’t hang out yet.
Courtney was boss on all but she needed Kurt's 10 seconds of input per song at least. Ltt is a good album, enjoyed for ehat it is
Pretty on the Inside have great songs and lyrics and she wasn't with Kurt.
I thought this when live through this was released
If Kurt had written it, it would be a hell of lot better.
Credit in the Straight world is a cover of Young Marble Giants.
What’s the song on the outro?
It wouldn't surprise me since Billy Corgan helped her write Celebrity Skin.
daamn what's music in background on intro?
Everyone has influence on each other. To say your married to a musician who writes music, and be with them for two years and say it doesn't Influence you would be a lie. It's not Kurt or Courtney where lead guitarists or something. No they where from the gritty underground,and came to the forefront when rock songwriting evolved back to something more basic,yet rocked, yet had complex melody in the music at times. I don't like Courtney but I can't take anything away from her on that front.sure maybe she sucks at writing,but maybe Kurt did as well until he met her. We just don't really know. We don't know a lot about how the songs came to be,and how long or short it took to hammer certain things out. Kurt definitely was a revisionist and had ideas sitting around for years that got demo'd than just sat. That's part of his greatness, is that scatterbrain approach to having all these bits and pieces of paper and riffs and drawings and paintings and writings and poetry and absurd bullshlt just scattered around his living space. Sometimes a song could be easily written and be done, but much like Ozzy with black Sabbath or john Lennon, there are versions of things where lyrics and melodies where tried in different ways and even sometimes the 'final' version wasn't so final. I bet if Kurt lived on he'd have changed lyrics or parts to songs they continually play Just to keep things fresh. Or certain songs would be dropped for years before randomly popping back up in the set.the scattered approach is definitely way more interesting than say a band like Metallica, who just plays it the same for 40 years, and maybe only changes the last few notes at the end for live feel so it isn't as abrupt or bland as the album ending
She definitely had help and won't acknowledge the people who helped her but she did have the talent and guts to chase a dream of forming a band and getting herself out there.
I'm not the biggest fan of hers but at least she tried to do something that most only dream of.
It’s always the ignorant ones, the untalented ones that have the biggest confidence.
I dont think she chased anything. She was installed. Her fame was planned. She did her job well.
The real genius behind the hole tunes sounds like it was mostly a group of or at least multiple people who were closer to regular than genius talented sure i dont think it took a genius to write a hole tune
Is the voiceover an A.I? Inconsistent pronunciation of Live.
It was Billy Corgan riff on the song Celebrity Skin. She admitted that on Howard Stern ahow.
They both dipped in that hole. That in itself is worse than her spreading for chorus and chord progression. It's obvious. Her album was filled with demos of Kurt.
In any case how many of us have written multiple albums? Not me [yet] we live in dreams...
Always felt this during that time
Yes. Cobain wrote most of "Live through This" and Corgan wrote most of "Celebrity Skin."
He never wrote it. Where is the proof? It's a baseless rumor. All the band members straight up say the only thing he did WAS sing on a couple of tracks. It was confirmed that Corgan wrote five songs so WHERE do they say Kurt wrote LTT?
@@marcen12 Indeed, his role was only indirect, since he and Kristen Pfaff were talking on the phone for hours on multiple occasions, and surely they bounced ideas off each other. Again, that's very indirect; much of the music is the result of Kristen's classical training.
@@scottcharney1091 And also, she had an unintended hand with In Utero since the lyrics were a lot more direct than Nevermind. I never hear anyone talk about THAT.
@@marcen12 Can you elaborate on that?
@@scottcharney1091 On Nevermind, the lyrics were a bit more vague and contradictory. Sure, there were clear moments like on Polly and In Bloom, but a lot of the time, the lyrics on that album were somewhat contradictory at times. When In Utero came out, the songwriting changed because Love's own lyrics on Hole's albums were a LOT more direct. So, in a way, In Utero is full of In Bloom songs if they were raw, angrier and intense, while still having hooks. It's if Nirvana looked at Hole's first album and said "We could do that in our own way."
She had a great voice and performed awesome live, can’t fake that at least.
Even the very first time I listened to "Live Through This" (kickass album, no matter what), I suspected that Kurt had at least a major role in the writing, specially "Gutless", which sounds like a straight-up Nirvana song.
But who ever heard about Hole before Nirvana and Nevermind!
Hole was number 1 at the indie chart in the UK before Nevermind was released, so the British did know.
I had . I also heard of Nirvana before Nevermind. It’s an album called Bleach.
Hole was more popular than Nirvana in the 90’s
That reminds me of the story between elliott smith and jennifer chiba, everything goes down at the point elliott helped her to edit her band’s album.
Same story but different 😅
@3:14 If you are implying that isn't a good backing harmony to the main vocal line, I disagree.
Why wouldn't he, that was his wife, makes a lot of sense.