I about had a heart attack when I learned that Jim Keller was my man Jordan Peterson’s brother-in-law… these are the greatest minds in our time.. 100 years form now these guy’s will be remembered as great men..
I’ say the odds are, as good a Mason’s odds get. That being said. Jordan is a rare breed. Very few speak against thing’s that oath creates. The punishment is death. Now you might see why, Peterson is valued by the herd, and hated by chattel. He has the power to uproot the whole SS. “Shit Show” I’m personally still pondering motive here. Calculated, or honest attempt at redemption? The left hasn’t showed me anything I don’t like in the man. God Bless.
This guy is a legend. Hes the reason AMD is dominant now. He created the beginning of what became Apples M1 chips too. If you want to know what stocks to buy pay attention to who hires Jim. The dude helped develop x86 and is now developing the future of the next thing in CPU tech RISC-V focused on machine learning and efficiency. He's literally one of the most revolutionary figures of our time.
@@suedenim5821 I knew about him because of AMDs Zen processors which I was reading about in 2016. Because it was interesting that AMD was taking its edge back. Not because of this. Don't assume.
As a software developer I was giddy when I saw this interview pop up .... I've been following Jim's career for the past 15-20 years and he's been part of some brilliant innovations
Did you know he is friends and family with Peterson? I seem to remember Peterson sometimes talking about his computer engineer friend. But seems like him beign Keller is quite a surprise. Like, one of the very very few THE computer engineers today, the AMD Athlon guy, processor that made the 2nd of 2 central processor companies in the the history of the solar system, is married to Jordan Peterson family. Completly bananas, seems to me.
maybe....lol...it takes years to learn what this guy taught in this small technological lecture with peterson , i dont believe everyone has the brain capacity to understand all that stuff he was talking about in its minute detail. Not eveyrone has a technical mind to even comprehend half the stuff he was saying, theres complex math in there ontop of that, measurements and he even said hteres things that wold be to complex to really explain simply lol. Like he made computing sound probably more complex than it even is. He really neded to start with electricity going from the power point to the power supply and how that electricity powers all the bits of a computer, how it travels along a motherboard and then go from there. What he explained is probably 2-5 year degree compressed into a Peterson sound bite. He probably should of started off with the power, then motherboard and how information travels through that, then harddrives for storage, then ram then the CPU that processes all the information. I think he almost made it sound more complicated than it is lol
@@nyranstanton203 he's an absolute beast, my comment was about learning the true nature of humility as pride made me stupid in the past. I guess stupid is a spectrum, but not pretending to be smart is a good starting place.
@@Brittanyem most people( i barely grasped how he was explaining it, he almost made it sound to complex, thats another skill, to be able to explain something extremely complicated and make it sound simple , when its not) wouldnt even be able to comprehend what hes even saying and it would literally sound like jibberish.
@@nyranstanton203 I believe nondualistic thinking is a skill that not everyone has developed. And then beyond that, he uses endless reference points to weave his points together, it's really remarkable.
Goodness I was discussing this very thing this morning With my daughter. Reminding her that staying on a doomed path is a choice and worrying about what might happen was a waste of time because any action was better than guaranteed failure
As a retired engineer (defense, not commercial), I was overwhelmed by a tsunami of deja vu for so many of Jim's insights, having experienced so many of the situations he describes. In many large companies captured by bureaucracy it is VERY difficult to weed out deadwood, especially as a direct team lead which I was several times. When you rated someone subpar, sometimes they reacted like you had run over their dog. Higher management MUST back up team leads in such a situation, which sadly they often do not. I would have LOVED to work for Jim, as many of the functional and project management I worked for were technically clueless. When this is the case, an enormous amount of time and effort is spent communicating not only with customers, but even more with layers of clueless management. Only in the defense industry is this possible, because time wasted thereby would have bankrupted most commercial endeavors. There were numerous exceptions to this, and working on those projects was so enjoyable it felt like a real letdown when the programs successfully concluded. Just as Jim related.
I think that's the familiar narrative: engineers vs management bureaucracy. But his point was that engineers are bureaucratic in their own way too. And rightfully so because you've spent time investing in technical processes, technologies, and designs. But we may have been building towards the wrong thing. I worked at both apple and Tesla and his description is both true and insightful. The only force that can conteract aggregate move to order is the CEO and jobs and musk are famously chaotic. Jim too evidently but at a smaller amplitude. But he saw the need. I am only seeing it now fully
As an electrical engineer of 15+ years, I think this was one of the most fascinating talks Jordan has done. I’ve written a lot of firmware code over the years for various microprocessors/microcontrollers, and it’s pretty cool to know that Jim is at least partially responsible for how these x86 derivatives operate.
In a long career as a software engineer turned technical manager, I connected with this interview in so many ways. I relived my own personal experiences listening to Mr. Keller. I felt his frustration with all of the BS he had to cut through to deliver on his goals, but I supposed his story is more common than I had imagined. I too worked with teams of people much smarter than me and the only thing I had was my integrity and philosophy from my sports captain days - to galvanize the team, using each player in the right role to win the big game against our fiercest competition and to deliver a product that I would personally use. I was myself. I went with what I knew well and it seemed to fit. My teams bought in and to my surprise let me lead. And we were very successful. It was the hardest, but most rewarding experience of my life. Thanks for this interview.
As a former tech employee I've witnessed so much bad management due to the promotion of engineers to be people managers. Just because they're smart and good IC's doesn't mean they can manage people. Having a sports background is way more valuable to managing a team successfully than engineering knowledge.
I can't believe Dr. Peterson has Jim Keller on! One of the clearest thinkers discussing life with one of the bravest. Fantastic. For anyone that enjoyed this, check out Jim Keller on Lex Fridman's podcast - so good.
Jim holds a special place in my heart since I started designing microprocessors for TI in the late 70's and was in the semiconductor world for 30 years. I could relate so much to this interview since I also moved from engineering to management but veered into marketing, and general management. Jim imparts lots of wisdom on managing managers in a fast technical environment. Thanks for the interview Jordan!
I’m only 21, what business do I have listening to 2 grey haired men discuss computing?…. Chasing knowledge from people with 30+ years more knowledge than I, is priceless & I love each & every one of these random 2+ hour podcasts where I’m just soaking in information. I know I’ll come back to this video months later & I’ll discover things I missed in this one & change my form of reference. Thank you both so much For this
The fact that at your age you recognize this tells me you will achieve great success as long as you can implement what you learn and be a person of action. Good for you man.
He really is. As genius as he is, he has a very direct way of speaking that us normies can process easily. He doesn't speak on some esoteric level trying to sound smart, he just really wants people to understand what he's saying.
These are the videos and interviews that I am most excited for, where we have the privilege of seeing someone very knowledgeable in their field of expertise condense down decades of experience into a 1-2 hour conversation. Liquid gold.
@@metalted6128 it's just default intuition to assume it's solid (we don't often see gold in its liquid state in our environment), the burden of explaining is not on me, my position is the default one, also what is a simple minded question, questions don't have minds, and if you are referring to the mind of the questioner then you are making some big assumptions you probably shouldn't make
This is probably my favorite video JP has posted in a long time. I went to school for psychology and ended up working as a manufacturing engineer my whole life so far, so this one really hit home with me. Awesome conversation.
great interview. As a non technical person, I appreciate Dr Petersons questions and perspectives. It helps me really understand exactly what is meant by computer engineering and how computers really work.
Thanks I remember first watching Jim Keller on Fridman's podcast and was impressed by his intelligence and wisdom. Some other interviews I was impressed with was Jony Ive who was the Chief Design Officer of Apple from 1997 - 2019. And also Jeff Bezos. Who taught me to use a pretty useful thought experiment when making important life decisions. When he was deciding between leaving his career vs starting Amazon: "I was trying to wrap my head around how to think about this, and I think the best way for me to think about it was to project myself forward to the age of 80 and say, "Look, when I'm 80 years old, I want to have minimized the number of regrets that I have." I don't want to be 80 years old, in a quiet moment of reflection, thinking back over my life and cataloging a bunch of major regrets, and I think that our biggest regrets, in most cases, are acts of omission, its paths not taken, and they haunt us. We wonder what could have happened, and so that's the frame of mind that I put myself in, and once I did that, once I thought about it that way, it was immediately obvious to me. I knew that when I'm 80, I would never regret trying this thing that I was super excited about. There would be a hundred percent chance of regret if I didn't try and basically a zero percent chance of regret if I tried and failed, so I think that's a useful metric for any important life decision."
I was a physicist. We dreamed of things that might be possible given the right conditions and we witnessed miracles we scant understood. Engineers made our most impobable dreams come true!
Funny how different brains and modes of thinking work. I was able to follow Jim's explanation of computer, and the application of engineering pretty fluently (being an engineer myself). When I hear JP speaks so articulately, especially how he weaves abstract ideas together so eloquently and decompose it to practical daily applications, I didn't think i could ever write or speak that well but I started following Jordan's suggestion on "being precise in your speech" about 3 years ago and it changed my whole perspective on the power of speech and writing. Thank you Dr.Jordan Peterson!
At my current age and circumstance, I no longer work on complex technical problems (I'm almost 77 years old, I have health problems which reduce my available energy for planning complex things, and I no longer have the kind of equipment which allows me to do complex investigations in reasonable time.) But for many years, during the late 20th century I was a computer consultant, designing and implementing software solutions for general business desiderata. So, I'm lying here in bed II sleep a lot nowadays,) listening to this video and just enjoying the hell out of it. Your brother-in-law's work experience is in many (but not all) senses the same as mine. The jobs I was offered were short, (paid more, companies don't care so much about how much they pay for short projects, since the pain isn't going to last very long,), and types of projects I had performed successfully previously, or projects which no one had performed previously, but I didn't get jobs which many people know how to do, but I didn't. Learning curves tend to be expensive, and paying for a learning curve when it is unnecessary is foolish. Mr. Keller seems to be a person I'd like to know, (as are you, by the way,) I hope you all would consider that a compliment, it is intended as such.
Computer science and Jordan Peterson = heaven. Also, great topic! Staying on a doomed path is a choice, worrying about what might happen is a waste of time because any action is better than guaranteed failure.
I had to stop the last podcast Dr Peterson had with Joe Rogan when Dr Peterson shared his brother in law is Jim freakin Keller. What a family, man. It blew my mind they’re related.
Fascinating talk, I love Jim Keller. He really distills complex ideas into their simple axioms. I'd love some book recommendations from him on the management front.
Check out his interview last year on TechTechPotato. I recall he talks a little bit about that. When he took on that management role he read many books back to back to prepare himself, and was surprised to learn that none of his peers had done the same.
Watched this partial interview on DailyWire but came to YT to continue. Happy to see the accolades for Mr. Keller from you all more acquainted with his work.
This is the guest I was waiting for ever since I realised he was your brother in law. Even requested it once or twice in the comments. Two briljant minds! Keep up the good work.
Wow, the best podcast I have ever seen. Absolute must listen for anyone in the tech / programming / engineering field. I wished they went into the philosophy of AI, as Peterson stated on Rogan that Jim Keller mentioned to him that AI is a bigger innovation than the internet. I hope a part 2 going into what AI is and could be and what humans and their brains are gets a deep dive discussion soon, if Jim is allowed to talk about it :)
Yay! Back to the old format! So much better!! The feel of this is more authentic and less distracting than the “higher quality” of the new stuff. That was too sleek. This is perfect.
This guy is amazing. I didn’t even see this podcast when it came out. Knowing a thing or two about computers, really allows me to understand the magnitude of what this man has accomplished. He kind of glosses over it, but the 2P architecture he helped create is literally what powers basically the entire internet today. Amazing.
I'm such a big fan of Jim Keller! I wish he did more interviews. I loved the ones he did with Lex Fridman. It's neat to finally see Jordan and Jim do one together! Though, that means we spent a lot of time in freshman/sophomore level CS stuff. Never the less, some real pearls came out of this! 👍
I had always hoped Dr P would interview Sir Keller. Clearly a solid leader on top of a technical revolutionary. It will take weeks to fully unplack but his contrast of technical vs non technical with the layers of unwinding was dead on. It takes an amazing amount of experience in engineering and a tight focus on goals, with no BS leaders. Once those are gone - teams lead propper flourish. Is it any wonder why most technical projects either fail or come up short of expectations and turn into death marches or worse political death marches. If boardrooms knew their IT hosed half their budget on non productive bickering, controlling messages and only managing up - maybe more shops would be better to work in.
I’m impressed. Old school approach, condensed and aggregated knowledge. I’d like to add one thing that is so devastating to the Arc/Eng ethos, especially in the ICT: lack of mentors (not a teacher, you could learn on your own - but the unspoken ability to adapt to work with a style/rite). Thank you a lot for this video, it’s going to be very important for lots of people. P.S. Thank you a lot for the K7, still good memories back then with Gentoo Linux compilation on them :)
Mentorship is extremely difficult in engineering, and a high performing engineer is wasted mentoring somebody whose potential is low, sadly. Engineering organizations are really really tough.
@@microcolonel That’s the point - it should not be a high performer - it should be a master in the craft. When performance is a key factor - where is the beauty of a concept, how so called “managers” are able to measure creativity without a meaning?
Jesus Jordan. You’ve talked about this guy for years… Why did we have to wait so long? Some of the most applicable information I’ve ever heard. Currently build my business in Appliance Repair and it’s changed the way I’m looking at it completely. Thank you for getting around to it, great conversation.
Excellent management insight by Mr. Keller. It is apparent he has put a lot of mental energy into becoming a superior product focused leader. People do not give the skill that is the result of this kind of analysis and effort on effective management enough credit.
I am so glad to listen to this. It brought back memory of my microprocessor class in college and the use of registers etc. It was so refreshing to hear Jim Keller talking.. its just GEEK.. solid GEEK.. and I love it. and to find that they are related .. its a dynamic duo of intelligentsia.
Alexa proposed this podcast to me totally randomly, and I loved it, it was amazing! As a hardware, SoC and chip designer myself, it was painful to listen to Jim explaining technical stuff for Jordan but still thoroughly enjoyable. He's had such an amazing career, I'm kind of jealous. Nice talk guys! thanks!
Always enjoy listening to Jim. As a Mechanical Engineer, I have a great amount of respect for his work. Something he said pretty early on in this that struck me, is that engineering is more than just the aptitude to do the work. I worked in a large F500 company in a principal position for a little over a decade taking a rotational group of interns under-wing each year trying to teach them the trade. All of them had the intelligence, which was evident in their degrees but what many lacked was the creativity. That's not something that can be taught; you tend to have it or you don't. The ones that do, typically move on to design engineering positions with the rest moving into managing product lines and/or climbing the management chain. Engineering teaches a unique skill-set that I wish a lot of other people would latch onto in terms of critical thinking. It's built into much of the discipline and good core skills will allows one to step back and evaluate any kind of situation in a logical manner. We need more engineers.. computer programmers, etc... people with all the rungs attached on their logic ladders...
Love this interview... fascinating to hear Jim Keller talk about how to innovate and when to abandon projects... I could listen to Jim tell stories for hours.
This is a superb study on what makes some companies successful and others fail, especially in the tech field. As an executive (now retired) of a tech company I learned that keeping marginal people on the front lines is quickly disastrous to the success of he enterprise. I also observed that the main reason that government oversight fails is that they can’t fire anyone, not even the deadest of the dead wood. One of the major reason the aerospace industry in the US has sunk into such bastions of mediocrity is that every major company is riddled with live-in bureaucrats who require every step of the development/design/build process be approved by them. And when a product disaster manifests itself (Boeing comes to mind), the bureaucrats and their small contractor minions, who live in the plants and are up to their eyeballs in “gov approvals”, are not only not held accountable, but are actually put in charge of the fix. Geniuses like Keller would never tolerate and certainly would not be successful in the US aerospace industry. I predict he would fire them all if he could.
I could listen to Jim all day. He’s exceptionally conscious and clear. Something about his word choice leaves me feeling smarter without feeling I’ve had to critically listen.
If you want to understand computers better I recommend Richard Feynman's lecture on Computer Science. It's one of the best lectures (about anything) I found on youtube.
Is there anyone in this family who HASN"T changed the world?? The stuff Jim's worked on genuinely blows my mind, some of the most important developments in the very gear I work with day and night for the past quarter of a century. Hearing his insights and how describes them gives form to so many things I've observed in my own career and indeed expands them vertically well beyond my own career abstraction layers. I guess you have to have followed the industry for a long time to properly understand the sheer importance of what Jim's worked on but needless to say - it's hard to overstate how important this stuff has been.
I also graduated with a BS in computer engineering, also got my first job at Harris (I think that's what he said, lousy sound quality), and also focused on designing microprocessor architecture. That level of coincidence already gave me chills. Also, I am ALWAYS interested ot hear someone explain the concepts I already know to a layman. It's a hard thing to do. Emphasizing the layers of abstraction is crucial. I would've included a cursory explanation of how transistors are arranged to be logic gates, and that all arithmetic operations are just adding combined with logical operations, but that may have required a whiteboard. Anyway Keller did a great job! Thanks again for another stimulating interview :)
Even the things I was intimately familiar with were interesting to listen to, based solely on how James chose to explain them. How cool to have that guy as a brother-in-law.
This was a great conversation. I am a computer engineer and hobby in psychology, so the combination hit my sweet spot. Just about more than anything Jordan has done. And I have watched almost everything.
Really nice explanation of the difference between engineering vs. fundamental research / physics (some people opining that there should not be physicists who get money to research with unclear goals, but they should all just be engineers working on immediately obviously useful stuff, to not waste money, need to hear that...)
God what a pleasure it is listening to super intelligent people like Peter Teal and Jim. Thank you for stopping the AMD Bulldozen processors and thank you for sharing your wisdom with the world!
Jim may have known my brother whom I loved with all my heart. Harry Donald Nelson was AMD’s staff patent attorney and won a lawsuit against Intel to gain 2nd source status for their 386 chip. He passed early this year. Decorated naval officer from the VietNam war. I’d be honored if Don left a mark on Jim’s life.
I'm a computer engineer and I have a masters in Computer Science. I was gonna comment on an ealry remark of this video, then I head how Mr. Jim Keller headed a team of 10k people on Intel and I retrieved my fingers from the keyboard. The internet is a vicious and lustful place that arises the ego, but you sir are most definetly a refenrece for us Computer Scientits. Show us the way. And to Jordan Peterson thanks for tackling computer science issues, because we are very close to the year of the singularity (it was predicted to be 2025 when I was an undergrad, perhaps more iminent now) and people are not really focusing on the repercussions that will emmerge as consequence to this event. Anyways, really like you channel, keep it up.
Omg what!!! How crazy these two worlds collide like this. I’m a huge Jordan Peterson fan and a Jim Keller fan and now I find out he’s his brother-in-law??? 😂
25:59 Jordan thank you for interviewing Jim. As a point of improvement: I have noticed that sometimes you cut people off in long distance interviews. Long pauses are awkward but it is less frustrating than listening closely trying to hear the end of what the person being interviewed is saying, over your interruption. A very minor complaint, mostly thank you for doing this.
Jim was actually great - he asserted his space in the convo. if Jim had something to say, he would not back down from saying it ‘till the end. Jordan had to wait his turn.
Long interview, but well worth the time. His explanation of AI reminds me of a paper I wrote back in 1970 called the Law of Knowledge. But computers back then (even IBMs) weren't fast enough or powerful enough to use the "Law" I explained in my paper.
Holy s~~~! This is possibly the most important interview one could watch for anyone trying to understand how corporations work. It combines application of every single book I've ever read on the subject. It includes direct observations of pure giants and how tragedy breeds success. How pruning is a requirement for growth. How order and creatives can find a balance. This was stunning.
1:23:50 That is actually a remarkably good summary for someone who doesn't know anything about computers. How you then get from logical operations and mathematical operations like "or" and "subtract" to "on and off" is actually not that complicated at all. It's just a bunch of electrons racing across an obstacle course made up of wires and transistors laid out in patterns with predictable outcomes by architects like Mr Keller. The ones and zeroes in the memory don't actually mean anything to the computer; you could feed a video signal from the memory into a sound device and it would sound like random garbage, even though that same video signal would produce a perfectly coherent picture when fed into a display. The voltage on/off sequences only mean something because they create patterns that we recognise. All the electrons do is follow the laws of physics, which mostly means they're trying to stay as far apart from each other as possible. They don't think, they don't decide, they just act according to very simple and predictable rules which us humans have arranged into patterns which are analogous to simple logical operations.
Wow. So much great information, so interesting. I used to think I was pretty stupid for not knowing and understanding the basics of how a computer works, but after listening to Mr. Keller's incredible basic breakdown...I know I am!
Please don't discount yourself my friend,you can learn anything you choose, it might take some twists and turns ,we aren't all Elon Musk and even he falls and starts again💫
@JordanBPeterson @JimKeller thanks for the interview. If you are someone like me interested in computer architecture and working for one. This video is like a gold. I am learning about RISCV and following testorrent, if AI is the future then hardware is the proteins which builds it. I learnt about the 10^-40 hay \O/ and how good tech person turning intro a manager can change the way teams working in the Chip industry.
17:00, 23:00, 26:30, 32:32, 38:20, 43:18, 1:02:00- how computer works,1:25:10 - abstraction layer of computer, 1:34:55 - designing a GPU for every pixel 1:44:12 - managerial role or technical person 2:05:03 - the truth right there💯 2:07:05 💯
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Thanks, Jordan! You straight-up 100, bro.
Interview The Critical Drinker, aka Will Jordan.
i understand that the interview has to have a structure, but im pissed at jp for stopping jim keller in his responses
Damn you’re looking good JP.
I about had a heart attack when I learned that Jim Keller was my man Jordan Peterson’s brother-in-law… these are the greatest minds in our time.. 100 years form now these guy’s will be remembered as great men..
Just unreal! Two of my favorite people in ONE podcast and they are related?! 😯 Did. Not. Know!
I agree. It made me thought I was living in a simulation
I hope it's sooner than that,I might not be here.🤣👍☯️
@@sinsemilla9876 probably the worst outlook on humanity ive ever seen."lets wait. They still might fail later."
Yeah, imagine what are the odds for that.
keller is a legend in the computation and chip world, what were the odds that he and jbp are related
It's genuinely incredible. It must be God's work.
🤯
ikr? I was shocked
Brilliant minds allign; it’s often the way of the world
I’ say the odds are, as good a Mason’s odds get.
That being said. Jordan is a rare breed. Very few speak against thing’s that oath creates.
The punishment is death. Now you might see why, Peterson is valued by the herd, and hated by chattel. He has the power to uproot the whole SS. “Shit Show”
I’m personally still pondering motive here. Calculated, or honest attempt at redemption? The left hasn’t showed me anything I don’t like in the man.
God Bless.
This guy is a legend. Hes the reason AMD is dominant now. He created the beginning of what became Apples M1 chips too. If you want to know what stocks to buy pay attention to who hires Jim. The dude helped develop x86 and is now developing the future of the next thing in CPU tech RISC-V focused on machine learning and efficiency. He's literally one of the most revolutionary figures of our time.
Do you have any sources?
@@k4piii sounds pretty easy to Google tbh
probably c3ai
Like you knew who he was or thought about him in any way, shape or form before today 😏
@@suedenim5821 I knew about him because of AMDs Zen processors which I was reading about in 2016. Because it was interesting that AMD was taking its edge back. Not because of this. Don't assume.
As a software developer I was giddy when I saw this interview pop up .... I've been following Jim's career for the past 15-20 years and he's been part of some brilliant innovations
Did you know he is friends and family with Peterson? I seem to remember Peterson sometimes talking about his computer engineer friend. But seems like him beign Keller is quite a surprise. Like, one of the very very few THE computer engineers today, the AMD Athlon guy, processor that made the 2nd of 2 central processor companies in the the history of the solar system, is married to Jordan Peterson family. Completly bananas, seems to me.
@@Tenebrousable The smart getting smarter!
That was a real surprise for me to know that he is part of his family!
following? so like stalking?
"If you admit you're stupid, sometimes you don't have to stay that way."
Lesson of the day.. or a lifetime 👌
maybe....lol...it takes years to learn what this guy taught in this small technological lecture with peterson , i dont believe everyone has the brain capacity to understand all that stuff he was talking about in its minute detail. Not eveyrone has a technical mind to even comprehend half the stuff he was saying, theres complex math in there ontop of that, measurements and he even said hteres things that wold be to complex to really explain simply lol. Like he made computing sound probably more complex than it even is. He really neded to start with electricity going from the power point to the power supply and how that electricity powers all the bits of a computer, how it travels along a motherboard and then go from there. What he explained is probably 2-5 year degree compressed into a Peterson sound bite. He probably should of started off with the power, then motherboard and how information travels through that, then harddrives for storage, then ram then the CPU that processes all the information. I think he almost made it sound more complicated than it is lol
@@nyranstanton203 he's an absolute beast, my comment was about learning the true nature of humility as pride made me stupid in the past. I guess stupid is a spectrum, but not pretending to be smart is a good starting place.
@@Brittanyem most people( i barely grasped how he was explaining it, he almost made it sound to complex, thats another skill, to be able to explain something extremely complicated and make it sound simple , when its not) wouldnt even be able to comprehend what hes even saying and it would literally sound like jibberish.
@@nyranstanton203 I believe nondualistic thinking is a skill that not everyone has developed. And then beyond that, he uses endless reference points to weave his points together, it's really remarkable.
Goodness I was discussing this very thing this morning With my daughter. Reminding her that staying on a doomed path is a choice and worrying about what might happen was a waste of time because any action was better than guaranteed failure
Exactly. Logic and basic deduction. The war isn't over until we surrender.
Yes yes yes. I’d have loved to have been told that when I was younger. Though some of us are very stubborn and we think we can avoid failure 🙏
Unless your change results in a failure with even greater negative consequences.
Tell her that mights 😊live in chicken houses.
That's a good lesson to remember
As a retired engineer (defense, not commercial), I was overwhelmed by a tsunami of deja vu for so many of Jim's insights, having experienced so many of the situations he describes. In many large companies captured by bureaucracy it is VERY difficult to weed out deadwood, especially as a direct team lead which I was several times. When you rated someone subpar, sometimes they reacted like you had run over their dog. Higher management MUST back up team leads in such a situation, which sadly they often do not.
I would have LOVED to work for Jim, as many of the functional and project management I worked for were technically clueless. When this is the case, an enormous amount of time and effort is spent communicating not only with customers, but even more with layers of clueless management. Only in the defense industry is this possible, because time wasted thereby would have bankrupted most commercial endeavors. There were numerous exceptions to this, and working on those projects was so enjoyable it felt like a real letdown when the programs successfully concluded. Just as Jim related.
I swear if ww3 ever gets started it won't be a matter of who's got the best weapons, it'll be like who's government is more incompetent
You would have loved to work for Jim...until he fired you? :-)
I think that's the familiar narrative: engineers vs management bureaucracy. But his point was that engineers are bureaucratic in their own way too. And rightfully so because you've spent time investing in technical processes, technologies, and designs. But we may have been building towards the wrong thing. I worked at both apple and Tesla and his description is both true and insightful. The only force that can conteract aggregate move to order is the CEO and jobs and musk are famously chaotic. Jim too evidently but at a smaller amplitude. But he saw the need. I am only seeing it now fully
As an electrical engineer of 15+ years, I think this was one of the most fascinating talks Jordan has done. I’ve written a lot of firmware code over the years for various microprocessors/microcontrollers, and it’s pretty cool to know that Jim is at least partially responsible for how these x86 derivatives operate.
Check out lex Friedman’s podcasts with Keller. That stuff is like crack if you’re into Computers like this
Computer science and Dr. Peterson? Am I in heaven?😂🙌
😹😹😹 same
@@modernexistence4206 If so, then Christopher Hitchens is probably watching aswell. :)
In a long career as a software engineer turned technical manager, I connected with this interview in so many ways. I relived my own personal experiences listening to Mr. Keller. I felt his frustration with all of the BS he had to cut through to deliver on his goals, but I supposed his story is more common than I had imagined. I too worked with teams of people much smarter than me and the only thing I had was my integrity and philosophy from my sports captain days - to galvanize the team, using each player in the right role to win the big game against our fiercest competition and to deliver a product that I would personally use. I was myself. I went with what I knew well and it seemed to fit. My teams bought in and to my surprise let me lead. And we were very successful. It was the hardest, but most rewarding experience of my life. Thanks for this interview.
As a former tech employee I've witnessed so much bad management due to the promotion of engineers to be people managers. Just because they're smart and good IC's doesn't mean they can manage people. Having a sports background is way more valuable to managing a team successfully than engineering knowledge.
That’s awesome
Hands down, one of the best interviews that Dr. Peterson has done so far.
Except for the terrible audio
Nah
agreed on the audio problem ... hard to understand Jim a few times there. No excuses this far into his podcasting.
Daily Wire should give Peterson the funds to provide an incentive for guests to appear in person.
Geesh… people just can’t help themselves but to complain
I can't believe Dr. Peterson has Jim Keller on! One of the clearest thinkers discussing life with one of the bravest. Fantastic. For anyone that enjoyed this, check out Jim Keller on Lex Fridman's podcast - so good.
Peterson and Keller are related ;)
@@JohnDoe-nq5pk not exactly.. Keller is Peterson's brother in-law. not what I'd define as 'related'
@@pricardo333 Yes, he mayn't be his blood relation, but he is related to JP through his marriage to JP's sister. I'd hate to be in your family
@@pricardo333 related by law, YES, by blood No!
So that means yes they are related.
Jim holds a special place in my heart since I started designing microprocessors for TI in the late 70's and was in the semiconductor world for 30 years. I could relate so much to this interview since I also moved from engineering to management but veered into marketing, and general management. Jim imparts lots of wisdom on managing managers in a fast technical environment. Thanks for the interview Jordan!
I love my TI Nspire, the 84 was OK for a while too
I’m only 21, what business do I have listening to 2 grey haired men discuss computing?…. Chasing knowledge from people with 30+ years more knowledge than I, is priceless & I love each & every one of these random 2+ hour podcasts where I’m just soaking in information. I know I’ll come back to this video months later & I’ll discover things I missed in this one & change my form of reference. Thank you both so much For this
The fact that at your age you recognize this tells me you will achieve great success as long as you can implement what you learn and be a person of action. Good for you man.
Immediate like for Jim Keller! Extremely inspirational dude and no bs professional
He really is. As genius as he is, he has a very direct way of speaking that us normies can process easily. He doesn't speak on some esoteric level trying to sound smart, he just really wants people to understand what he's saying.
These are the videos and interviews that I am most excited for, where we have the privilege of seeing someone very knowledgeable in their field of expertise condense down decades of experience into a 1-2 hour conversation. Liquid gold.
Why is it liquid?
@@goawqebt6931 a solid gold nugget?
@@shadrackman1234 it can be just gold
@@goawqebt6931 it could be liquid, ask yourself why solid?
You can answer your own simple minded question yourself!!
Best of luck to you!
@@metalted6128 it's just default intuition to assume it's solid (we don't often see gold in its liquid state in our environment), the burden of explaining is not on me, my position is the default one, also what is a simple minded question, questions don't have minds, and if you are referring to the mind of the questioner then you are making some big assumptions you probably shouldn't make
It is remarkable how elegantly can Jim Keller explain complicated and very special concepts.
Jordan asked all the right questions on topics alien to him, to bring out the best . That’s commendable.
Just discussed it with my son who wants to become computer engineer trying to explain what it means!!! Huge help for young people
This is probably my favorite video JP has posted in a long time. I went to school for psychology and ended up working as a manufacturing engineer my whole life so far, so this one really hit home with me. Awesome conversation.
great interview.
As a non technical person, I appreciate Dr Petersons questions and perspectives. It helps me really understand exactly what is meant by computer engineering and how computers really work.
As a fpga architecture engineer, it's a nice interview. The balance between structure and creativity is the exact reason i love my job! 💯
Thanks I remember first watching Jim Keller on Fridman's podcast and was impressed by his intelligence and wisdom.
Some other interviews I was impressed with was Jony Ive who was the Chief Design Officer of Apple from 1997 - 2019.
And also Jeff Bezos. Who taught me to use a pretty useful thought experiment when making important life decisions. When he was deciding between leaving his career vs starting Amazon:
"I was trying to wrap my head around how to think about this, and I think the best way for me to think about it was to project myself forward to the age of 80 and say, "Look, when I'm 80 years old, I want to have minimized the number of regrets that I have." I don't want to be 80 years old, in a quiet moment of reflection, thinking back over my life and cataloging a bunch of major regrets, and I think that our biggest regrets, in most cases, are acts of omission, its paths not taken, and they haunt us. We wonder what could have happened, and so that's the frame of mind that I put myself in, and once I did that, once I thought about it that way, it was immediately obvious to me. I knew that when I'm 80, I would never regret trying this thing that I was super excited about. There would be a hundred percent chance of regret if I didn't try and basically a zero percent chance of regret if I tried and failed, so I think that's a useful metric for any important life decision."
Terrific insight, I couldn't copy it so I screenshot it. Thank you.
Very interesting to see two geniuses in completely different fields have such a fascinating conversation
I was a physicist. We dreamed of things that might be possible given the right conditions and we witnessed miracles we scant understood. Engineers made our most impobable dreams come true!
Precisely. Arthur C Clarke’s 3rd law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
@@topdog5252 So you're saying magic exists?? That explains a lot...
Funny how different brains and modes of thinking work. I was able to follow Jim's explanation of computer, and the application of engineering pretty fluently (being an engineer myself). When I hear JP speaks so articulately, especially how he weaves abstract ideas together so eloquently and decompose it to practical daily applications, I didn't think i could ever write or speak that well but I started following Jordan's suggestion on "being precise in your speech" about 3 years ago and it changed my whole perspective on the power of speech and writing. Thank you Dr.Jordan Peterson!
Jim Keller is my favourite podcast guest. Wise and thinks in a way I can immediately relate too.
At my current age and circumstance, I no longer work on complex technical problems (I'm almost 77 years old, I have health problems which reduce my available energy for planning complex things, and I no longer have the kind of equipment which allows me to do complex investigations in reasonable time.) But for many years, during the late 20th century I was a computer consultant, designing and implementing software solutions for general business desiderata.
So, I'm lying here in bed II sleep a lot nowadays,) listening to this video and just enjoying the hell out of it. Your brother-in-law's work experience is in many (but not all) senses the same as mine. The jobs I was offered were short, (paid more, companies don't care so much about how much they pay for short projects, since the pain isn't going to last very long,), and types of projects I had performed successfully previously, or projects which no one had performed previously, but I didn't get jobs which many people know how to do, but I didn't. Learning curves tend to be expensive, and paying for a learning curve when it is unnecessary is foolish.
Mr. Keller seems to be a person I'd like to know, (as are you, by the way,) I hope you all would consider that a compliment, it is intended as such.
Computer science and Jordan Peterson = heaven.
Also, great topic! Staying on a doomed path is a choice, worrying about what might happen is a waste of time because any action is better than guaranteed failure.
Best engineer in the world.
In a peculiar twist of space time in our simulation, Jim is also a brother-in-law of Jordan Peterson.
Veneficia
The rate of quality classes on Peterson University is hard to keep up with but we all love a challenge
Wow what a unbelievably prestigious guest to have on. Great land!
I love hearing from guys like this. Very well rounded, real practical human being. A guy that isn't all theory but practice too.
Jim Keller is my engineering icon. Papa Keller as I refer to him.
I had to stop the last podcast Dr Peterson had with Joe Rogan when Dr Peterson shared his brother in law is Jim freakin Keller. What a family, man. It blew my mind they’re related.
Fascinating talk, I love Jim Keller. He really distills complex ideas into their simple axioms. I'd love some book recommendations from him on the management front.
Check out his interview last year on TechTechPotato. I recall he talks a little bit about that. When he took on that management role he read many books back to back to prepare himself, and was surprised to learn that none of his peers had done the same.
Watched this partial interview on DailyWire but came to YT to continue. Happy to see the accolades for Mr. Keller from you all more acquainted with his work.
This is the guest I was waiting for ever since I realised he was your brother in law. Even requested it once or twice in the comments.
Two briljant minds! Keep up the good work.
Have the pleasure of seeing Jim speak in person several times. Excellent mind.
Wow, the best podcast I have ever seen. Absolute must listen for anyone in the tech / programming / engineering field. I wished they went into the philosophy of AI, as Peterson stated on Rogan that Jim Keller mentioned to him that AI is a bigger innovation than the internet. I hope a part 2 going into what AI is and could be and what humans and their brains are gets a deep dive discussion soon, if Jim is allowed to talk about it :)
I wish I had this guy as my manager about 30 years ago. So many people I have worked for loved the problem - not the solution.
Yay! Back to the old format! So much better!! The feel of this is more authentic and less distracting than the “higher quality” of the new stuff. That was too sleek. This is perfect.
This guy is amazing. I didn’t even see this podcast when it came out. Knowing a thing or two about computers, really allows me to understand the magnitude of what this man has accomplished. He kind of glosses over it, but the 2P architecture he helped create is literally what powers basically the entire internet today. Amazing.
One of your top five, Dr. Peterson. Of course, I’m an Engineer, so there may be *some* small possibility of bias.
Well Done.
I'm such a big fan of Jim Keller! I wish he did more interviews. I loved the ones he did with Lex Fridman. It's neat to finally see Jordan and Jim do one together! Though, that means we spent a lot of time in freshman/sophomore level CS stuff. Never the less, some real pearls came out of this! 👍
I had always hoped Dr P would interview Sir Keller. Clearly a solid leader on top of a technical revolutionary. It will take weeks to fully unplack but his contrast of technical vs non technical with the layers of unwinding was dead on. It takes an amazing amount of experience in engineering and a tight focus on goals, with no BS leaders. Once those are gone - teams lead propper flourish.
Is it any wonder why most technical projects either fail or come up short of expectations and turn into death marches or worse political death marches. If boardrooms knew their IT hosed half their budget on non productive bickering, controlling messages and only managing up - maybe more shops would be better to work in.
I’m impressed. Old school approach, condensed and aggregated knowledge. I’d like to add one thing that is so devastating to the Arc/Eng ethos, especially in the ICT: lack of mentors (not a teacher, you could learn on your own - but the unspoken ability to adapt to work with a style/rite). Thank you a lot for this video, it’s going to be very important for lots of people. P.S. Thank you a lot for the K7, still good memories back then with Gentoo Linux compilation on them :)
Mentorship is extremely difficult in engineering, and a high performing engineer is wasted mentoring somebody whose potential is low, sadly. Engineering organizations are really really tough.
@@microcolonel That’s the point - it should not be a high performer - it should be a master in the craft. When performance is a key factor - where is the beauty of a concept, how so called “managers” are able to measure creativity without a meaning?
i have heard jim keller on multiple interviews and cannot help but feel him as a brother and hold a love for him as such
This interview takes me back to the fascination I had with how electronics worked while studying electrical engineering
Jesus Jordan. You’ve talked about this guy for years… Why did we have to wait so long? Some of the most applicable information I’ve ever heard. Currently build my business in Appliance Repair and it’s changed the way I’m looking at it completely. Thank you for getting around to it, great conversation.
Excellent management insight by Mr. Keller. It is apparent he has put a lot of mental energy into becoming a superior product focused leader. People do not give the skill that is the result of this kind of analysis and effort on effective management enough credit.
This is my favourite discussion that you have posted.
Please have Jim on again in the future.
🙏
Holy shit I never expected such collaboration podcasts between two titans
I've been wanting Lex to do another interview with Jim, but in some ways this is even better!
Yeah we need a poem about love.
I am so glad to listen to this. It brought back memory of my microprocessor class in college and the use of registers etc. It was so refreshing to hear Jim Keller talking.. its just GEEK.. solid GEEK.. and I love it. and to find that they are related .. its a dynamic duo of intelligentsia.
Yeah they don’t much let us see the registers anymore! Except on embedded uPs!
Alexa proposed this podcast to me totally randomly, and I loved it, it was amazing!
As a hardware, SoC and chip designer myself, it was painful to listen to Jim explaining technical stuff for Jordan but still thoroughly enjoyable.
He's had such an amazing career, I'm kind of jealous.
Nice talk guys! thanks!
Painfull also having Jordan cut him off to steer the conversation his way. Rogan wouldn't have done that.
Always enjoy listening to Jim. As a Mechanical Engineer, I have a great amount of respect for his work. Something he said pretty early on in this that struck me, is that engineering is more than just the aptitude to do the work. I worked in a large F500 company in a principal position for a little over a decade taking a rotational group of interns under-wing each year trying to teach them the trade. All of them had the intelligence, which was evident in their degrees but what many lacked was the creativity. That's not something that can be taught; you tend to have it or you don't. The ones that do, typically move on to design engineering positions with the rest moving into managing product lines and/or climbing the management chain.
Engineering teaches a unique skill-set that I wish a lot of other people would latch onto in terms of critical thinking. It's built into much of the discipline and good core skills will allows one to step back and evaluate any kind of situation in a logical manner. We need more engineers.. computer programmers, etc... people with all the rungs attached on their logic ladders...
Jim is absolutely right about engineering, takes all types to accompleace things
Love this interview... fascinating to hear Jim Keller talk about how to innovate and when to abandon projects... I could listen to Jim tell stories for hours.
The amount of amazing people of all sorts that I’ve been introduced to through this podcast. Who would have thought. THANK YOU
Jim Keller....I didn't expect this. He's a legend. I'm an admirer of the work of both of them.
Thanks for asking about “what is a computation”. Loved that
This is a superb study on what makes some companies successful and others fail, especially in the tech field. As an executive (now retired) of a tech company I learned that keeping marginal people on the front lines is quickly disastrous to the success of he enterprise. I also observed that the main reason that government oversight fails is that they can’t fire anyone, not even the deadest of the dead wood. One of the major reason the aerospace industry in the US has sunk into such bastions of mediocrity is that every major company is riddled with live-in bureaucrats who require every step of the development/design/build process be approved by them. And when a product disaster manifests itself (Boeing comes to mind), the bureaucrats and their small contractor minions, who live in the plants and are up to their eyeballs in “gov approvals”, are not only not held accountable, but are actually put in charge of the fix. Geniuses like Keller would never tolerate and certainly would not be successful in the US aerospace industry. I predict he would fire them all if he could.
Good to see you Dr. as always. Keep the faith.
I could listen to Jim all day. He’s exceptionally conscious and clear. Something about his word choice leaves me feeling smarter without feeling I’ve had to critically listen.
If you want to understand computers better I recommend Richard Feynman's lecture on Computer Science. It's one of the best lectures (about anything) I found on youtube.
love his analogy between memory fetches and archival clerks / librarians.
Thank you both of you for doing this. Tremendous help in understanding towards several problems i will face in the future.
This was a phenomenal episode, I was hanging on to every word. Please have Jim on the show again!
Is there anyone in this family who HASN"T changed the world?? The stuff Jim's worked on genuinely blows my mind, some of the most important developments in the very gear I work with day and night for the past quarter of a century. Hearing his insights and how describes them gives form to so many things I've observed in my own career and indeed expands them vertically well beyond my own career abstraction layers.
I guess you have to have followed the industry for a long time to properly understand the sheer importance of what Jim's worked on but needless to say - it's hard to overstate how important this stuff has been.
As a computer engineer and a fan of JP this was an extremely enjoyable listen.
I also graduated with a BS in computer engineering, also got my first job at Harris (I think that's what he said, lousy sound quality), and also focused on designing microprocessor architecture. That level of coincidence already gave me chills.
Also, I am ALWAYS interested ot hear someone explain the concepts I already know to a layman. It's a hard thing to do. Emphasizing the layers of abstraction is crucial. I would've included a cursory explanation of how transistors are arranged to be logic gates, and that all arithmetic operations are just adding combined with logical operations, but that may have required a whiteboard. Anyway Keller did a great job! Thanks again for another stimulating interview :)
Sounded to me that his first job (fresh off the beach) was at Digital (DEC).
Even the things I was intimately familiar with were interesting to listen to, based solely on how James chose to explain them. How cool to have that guy as a brother-in-law.
This was a great conversation. I am a computer engineer and hobby in psychology, so the combination hit my sweet spot. Just about more than anything Jordan has done. And I have watched almost everything.
Really nice explanation of the difference between engineering vs. fundamental research / physics (some people opining that there should not be physicists who get money to research with unclear goals, but they should all just be engineers working on immediately obviously useful stuff, to not waste money, need to hear that...)
Be re no b no bro uynn
I'm glad people with brains like Jim Keller's exist.
God what a pleasure it is listening to super intelligent people like Peter Teal and Jim. Thank you for stopping the AMD Bulldozen processors and thank you for sharing your wisdom with the world!
Not sure how I missed it. So much wisdom. Don't be a problem lover, be a problem solver!
Jim may have known my brother whom I loved with all my heart. Harry Donald Nelson was AMD’s staff patent attorney and won a lawsuit against Intel to gain 2nd source status for their 386 chip. He passed early this year. Decorated naval officer from the VietNam war. I’d be honored if Don left a mark on Jim’s life.
I'm a computer engineer and I have a masters in Computer Science. I was gonna comment on an ealry remark of this video, then I head how Mr. Jim Keller headed a team of 10k people on Intel and I retrieved my fingers from the keyboard.
The internet is a vicious and lustful place that arises the ego, but you sir are most definetly a refenrece for us Computer Scientits. Show us the way.
And to Jordan Peterson thanks for tackling computer science issues, because we are very close to the year of the singularity (it was predicted to be 2025 when I was an undergrad, perhaps more iminent now) and people are not really focusing on the repercussions that will emmerge as consequence to this event.
Anyways, really like you channel, keep it up.
This is an amazing podcast. Will finish this tonight!
I postpined things just to finish watching.
completely agree with him about engineering. engineering education is about learning how to think and the disciple home your analytical tools
Omg what!!! How crazy these two worlds collide like this. I’m a huge Jordan Peterson fan and a Jim Keller fan and now I find out he’s his brother-in-law??? 😂
Dr. Peterson doing the Lord's work.
25:59 Jordan thank you for interviewing Jim. As a point of improvement: I have noticed that sometimes you cut people off in long distance interviews. Long pauses are awkward but it is less frustrating than listening closely trying to hear the end of what the person being interviewed is saying, over your interruption. A very minor complaint, mostly thank you for doing this.
Again at 1:01
Jim was actually great - he asserted his space in the convo.
if Jim had something to say, he would not back down from saying it ‘till the end.
Jordan had to wait his turn.
Rogan has addressed this point in explaining his preference for in person interviews and wearing headsets.
Loved Jim's talks with Lex. Really cool to see him here with Jordan!
JP you lost me on the 2nd set of numbers but I will listen along faithfully and learn 💕
This interview is a gift to us engineers
Long interview, but well worth the time. His explanation of AI reminds me of a paper I wrote back in 1970 called the Law of Knowledge. But computers back then (even IBMs) weren't fast enough or powerful enough to use the "Law" I explained in my paper.
Holy s~~~! This is possibly the most important interview one could watch for anyone trying to understand how corporations work. It combines application of every single book I've ever read on the subject. It includes direct observations of pure giants and how tragedy breeds success. How pruning is a requirement for growth. How order and creatives can find a balance. This was stunning.
As an engineer, its called "analysis paralysis".
This was one of the best interviews I’ve listened to in awhile! Great episode, Dr. Peterson!
1:23:50 That is actually a remarkably good summary for someone who doesn't know anything about computers. How you then get from logical operations and mathematical operations like "or" and "subtract" to "on and off" is actually not that complicated at all. It's just a bunch of electrons racing across an obstacle course made up of wires and transistors laid out in patterns with predictable outcomes by architects like Mr Keller. The ones and zeroes in the memory don't actually mean anything to the computer; you could feed a video signal from the memory into a sound device and it would sound like random garbage, even though that same video signal would produce a perfectly coherent picture when fed into a display. The voltage on/off sequences only mean something because they create patterns that we recognise. All the electrons do is follow the laws of physics, which mostly means they're trying to stay as far apart from each other as possible. They don't think, they don't decide, they just act according to very simple and predictable rules which us humans have arranged into patterns which are analogous to simple logical operations.
Wow. So much great information, so interesting. I used to think I was pretty stupid for not knowing and understanding the basics of how a computer works, but after listening to Mr. Keller's incredible basic breakdown...I know I am!
Please don't discount yourself my friend,you can learn anything you choose, it might take some twists and turns ,we aren't all Elon Musk and even he falls and starts again💫
Amazing stuff! Thank you so much for the insight. Pity the sound wasn't so good.
@JordanBPeterson @JimKeller thanks for the interview.
If you are someone like me interested in computer architecture and working for one. This video is like a gold. I am learning about RISCV and following testorrent, if AI is the future then hardware is the proteins which builds it. I learnt about the 10^-40 hay \O/ and how good tech person turning intro a manager can change the way teams working in the Chip industry.
outstanding as always!
17:00, 23:00, 26:30, 32:32, 38:20, 43:18, 1:02:00- how computer works,1:25:10 - abstraction layer of computer, 1:34:55 - designing a GPU for every pixel
1:44:12 - managerial role or technical person
2:05:03 - the truth right there💯
2:07:05 💯
I'm a Sr Software Engineer and I still found super entertaining what Jordan thought was a stupid question. I'm glad he asked it.
First heard jim twice on lex, he is awesome, such a straightforward clean way of thinking about the world.