16 Year Old Destroys Opponent's Knee Grappling - Doctor Explains
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ต.ค. 2022
- 16 year old grappling phenom Pat Shahgholi used a brutal heel hook to defeat his opponent at the recent Eddie Bravo Invitational. Was it too dangerous and what could have happened to someone's knee in this submission?
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Should heel hooks be banned in all competition or was this just a one off bad case?
Rousinar palhares is known for this move if you want to see more applications of this move. He was banned for holding too long
Heel hooks are banned in some competitions. Personally, I don't believe they should be banned. Rather the grappler who applies the move, should use caution and be penalized for harming their opponent. You can apply a heel hook and make a competitor tap, without using the type of force that will destroy the limb.
No, definitely not. This kid has zero self-control, and it seems to me that he applies these techniques in this manner because he was taught them at a point where he lacks the maturity to use them. Put him on the mat with Gordon Ryan, and he'll learn some respect for ripping knees like that.
Yes they should be allowed BUT for a certain age restrictions. I roll with a lot of men and the younger ones have less self control than the older men. I think if you are 20 or 21+, then sure.
That was a lack of self control/training. Every submission has the risk of permanent damage.
This is not the first time this kid has done this. He also showed little to 0 empathy after he inflicted this injury into his opponent. BJJ and MMA focuses heavily on respect and this kid clearly has none. Hopefully someone speaks to him about his uncouth actions.
Like a District Attorney?
@@sladewilson9741 like a coach, trainer, or whoever his mentor figure is in the gym.
Speak? Really?! How bout justice
Here is Pat Shahgoli tearing an opponents knee last year. Little to no care shown from this clip. th-cam.com/video/4fCBK3lsC6Y/w-d-xo.html
Dude, no one can incute respect or empathy in a 16 year old kid. From the way he acts, he might be the kind of guy to be in this just so he can practice violence without being criminally charged
The fact that this kid quickly released him to go right into victory pose shoes you that was the endgame for him. He was going for a knee break. To him, that's how you win. Like going for the knockout.
Kid is ruining lives
Which is garbage etiquette. Anyone who trains jujitsu knows there’s a level of respect we have for each other. Your opponent is not your enemy. This kid choosing to rip his opponents leg like that and possibly end his career on purpose, is a total pos move. He’s painted a pointless target on his head and he’s too young to comprehend what goes around comes around. He’s gonna meet his match one day and they’ll show him the same respect he showed this guy. And no one will have an ounce of sympathy for him. If that were me and my jujitsu career was over because of this kid, fuck that, I’d even the score and shoot him in the damn knee cap 🤷🏼♂️ Little fucking punk.
Exactly
Yeah it really does "shoe" 😂😂😂😂😂
He won
I was taking some Jiu-Jitsu classes for a while and I remember the time when our coach started teaching us about leg locks, heel hooks, kneebars, etc. He put a LOT of emphasis on how easily you can mess somebody's leg up with something as simple as a heel hook and stressed to us that you do NOT need to apply much pressure do serious damage. He even went as far as to tell us "Don't wait until you feel pain to tap, by that point it's usually too late" (this, of course, pertains to practice). The 16-year-old went way too hard IMO, and did not need to apply so much torque and force when applying the lock.
Yeah, leg locks and heel hooks have a very thin line between tapping out vs mangling a joint. Its a dangerous game. In practice it’s easy to wreck your training partner accidentally, in competition you gotta avoid that position, or tap early to avoid injury. It’s a thin line, I don’t know that the kid deserves too much negative attention. It’s not like a choke at all
@@SUPADUDE4070 I agree with tapping early to avoid further harm, but I still put alot of blame on the 16yo. He was in deep on that heel hook and then forcefully torqued on it. That's where I have an issue, that forceful torque was completely unnecessary.
I feel he likes the violence of the sport the speed of his technique was far
To exercise for the control he had of the position i bet he new he had already won and planed to make the opponent pay
@@CasualGamerJay I saw him hit this same sub at the EBI invitational, he didn't hurt the opponent that time because he tapped quick. if this were practice i'd agree with you, but this EBI one of the biggest stages in grappling rn. the kid is definitely jacked on adrenaline fighting a guy with tons of experience. He's a rookie and a kid. he deserves some slack
its EBI. The 16 year old didn't "go too hard" this isn't an in the gym roll
He's going to gain a reputation of intentionally hurting people and it will lead to his career ending super fast (if he goes that far). He needlessly is putting a target on his back and it will lead to him also receiving a significant injury (possibly multiple times).
He'll eventually run up against a superior grappler that will teach him a lesson. Hopefully he learns his lesson when they do.
The first time he finds someone better than him, he may be made to pay, but I honestly doubt it because most of those high end grapplers have so much honor, they will allow him the chance to tap that he doesn't give his opponents. Most BJJ and MMA competitors aren't lookng to end someone's career and give them a life-long limp.
I would think everyone will refuse to go up against him and that will end his career. Bad reputation to have.
@@paleojournee7864 no they wont because they are not scared like you guys. stay at open mat dont compete
@@KevinDeVriesbjj People hate cheaters and dirty fighters. People will stop rolling with him if he continuously does this no matter how good or bad they are
For those don’t know this is considered the most dangerous move in Jiu Jitsu. You apply it SLOWLY. Even at the highest level. What make this move really dangerous is that it’s life altering and if applied even slowly can cause a lot of damage to someone who doesn’t know about it as it doesn’t cause immediate pain.
I watched this event live and this kid is incredibly sloppy. He won’t find opponents if he keeps doing this.
*You didn't actually watch this event or any other BJJ event. Because if you did you you would know that your statement is untrue.*
First- The guy that didn't tap is a 3rd degree black belt.
Second- After that submission the crowd cheered loudly.
Third- Just in this event there were at least 50+ heel hook attempts
Fourth- This is *not* the most dangerous move in BJJ.
Fifth- Everyone wants to roll with him, he is a phenom. People travel to his gym from all over the world.
@@changeminds2736 So this phenom is about to have a long successful career?
@@changeminds2736 it's probably the most dangerous move that is allowed in competition. Dangerous in the senae that there is very little noticeable pain initially, and the potential kind of damage it causes.
He wont find opponents because he is a spectacular athlete and deserves all the praise coming his way!
@@changeminds2736 maybe Rousimar Palhares should travel to this phenom’s gym…
I'm not pro, but had a teacher teach me some of the basics of Jui Jitsu and you're supposed to give your opponent a chance to tap. Especially because they know how dangerous and how quickly they can break something. There's still sportsmanship in these sports, you don't just go directly to ruining someone's career.
you’re supposed to? said who tho? it’s a fight not a roll in the gym
@@damnson6556 this ain't the streets dude
IMO he had time to tap you usually can tell when someone is better then you in that 50/50 position and when you need to get out
@@damnson6556 didn’t go into that move thinking let me make him tap out, she went straight for it and that’s someone else’s career, don’t be so close minded.
@@mosstwig3591 you’re right cause if you win you get paid which is why he put the correct breaking mechanics
This crosses the boundary from “sport” to “assault”.
Granted a 4th degree black belt should know better than playing 50/50 with any leg locker even if he's a white belt
Problem is there are too many idiots that think this is fighting and not a sport. They think they are warriors instead of athletes and winning is all that matters. The lack of sportsmanship will grow. Just look at the responses you’ve gotten for proof.
No it doesn't. You sound ridiculous.
@Ernie Strother could you?
@Ernie Strother could you grapple him in real life it's pretty much different than vid games
The submission is not the issue, but the application of it. This guy had no regard for his partner. He gripped it and ripped it. The way he got up after ripping it shows he planned on breaking it from the get go. No time for his opponent to tap at all. Disgraceful.
He will find someone who will hurt him
He wasn't a partner, and this wasn't consensual training. This is a competitive match at EBI, one of the biggest BJJ competitions in the United States. They were both going for the kill, because that's what they voluntarily agreed upon by taking part. You have never competed in BJJ.
@@Nothingz3dge As someone who's competed in high level Taekwondo, respect is always #1 no matter what. Not trying to go in to kill or be killed. It's a competition, not a lion trying to eat you. Not taking away from your point that they were both in the competition willingly but c'mon this isn't fucking Bloodsport. If you're in any martial art to try and maim your opponent, you shouldn't be a practitioner simple as that.
@@Nothingz3dge I guarantee that person will get what's coming to him, and I can't wait to see his reaction when he gets humbled, and most likely forced to retire....if I was him I'd retire now, he already fked his future in these sports
He had time, he just didn't recognize it.
This Scares me so much as a grappler.
Guys like this convince me not to compete. Could you imagine him in a Naga tournament not knowing anything about him and he does this.
@@nerdobject5351 if you compete at the level that allows heel hooks you better be confident in your defense and awareness. otherwise sign up for the beginner level cause it’s super dangerous
We play BJJ because it's relatively safe.
If you take the safety away it just becomes a really gay fight.
Might as well play MMA and sniff a little less crotch
@@damnson6556 I mean everyone else can get the tap on heel hooks without intentionally hurting them
@@genghiskhalabeeb1906 gianni grippo kade ruotolo jacob couch have all popped ppls knees before by ripping a heel hook. it happens it’s part of the competition game. you gotta be ready to tap early
His lack of compassion is a weakness.
Have grappled for a while. Competition is way different than rolling in your home gym. It's super dangerous because of situations like this can easily happen. You know if you have someone in a spot where you can really duck something up. You gradually apply more force to get the tap. In a competition you might get this guy that doesn't care if you get hurt and will apply maximum force to whatever. Then you are having surgery for a $14 gold medal 🤷
Correction. $50,000
@@pranavgainz4180 I meant in general terms.. but IMO still 50k isn't worth that injury..and he obviously didn't win. Everyone has the risk/reward valued differently
facts. you sign waivers for a reason
@Mr Amechi no quite literally it’s absolutely not
@Mr Amechi tell me you’ve never participated in combat sports without telling me energy
I’m sure someone will return the favor to that guy. There’s always someone that’s a bit more savage.
Paul Harris should
@@EmbddedJiuSage You mean Rousimar Pularhes?
@@Quocalimar whoosh
@@iamdamo ya got me. I'm still confused
@@Quocalimar Paul Harris = Palhares
The lack of discipline and respect is absolutely disgusting. Classless and completely lacking morality with no regards to the impact of his actions. I never wish injury upon anyone in SPORT but some lessons are best learned the hard way kid.
Have you tried telling him?
100% agreed Dr. Sutterer. Thank you for posting this video and I truly hope this video or at min the information contained makes its way to this competitor. Hopefully we can all continue to train, learn, and compete against one another in the safest manner for all those who practice allowing the sport to grow and evolve. If we can continue to keep all participants safe and healthy enough to train regularly BJJ will continue to become even more effective in real world self defense situations. Save ripping opponents limbs off for the criminals not the competitors.
True skill is restraint 🙏✌️ hope this man recovers !
True skill is knowing when to tap.
@@howardroark3670 tf are you even talking about stupid? Idk if you actually watched the video but he didn't even have time to tap before he ripped his heel.
@@howardroark3670 you mean within the fraction of a second between him getting the heel and cranking his knee in half?
@@Luccimatic As soon as the heel hook is in the black belt should have tapped. He knew better but let his ego get in the way of good judgement. He paid the price. Hopefully the blackbelt learned from this experience & taps when he should next time.
@@BIG_DQNG He had time. He chose not to tap in time. He let his ego get in the way of good judgement & paid the price. If he's smart he will learn from this experience & tap when he is supposed to next time.
I had a spat with him on Instagram, he said he’ll leg lock me. I said I can roll for 3 hour straight, with no breaks, no water, without getting a heart attack. 😂
He can try to leg lock you if he doesn't get punched and kicked in the face before trying to grab the leg.
@@tigermike74 It's gonna be hilarious when someone drops 250 lbs on his knee, and fucking shatters it, he'll never try this shit again.
Whats his ig?
Even the slightest turn of the leg locks can break or tear someone’s knee this kid out here completely ripping peoples legs is crazy he’s debilitating people for life , word goes around quick in the bjj community trust he will get humbled soon enough
Yep, what goes around comes around. Also, his body type doesn't do so well in the higher levels.
Has that happened yet?
He'll come across somebody that he does not want to fuck with and get annihilated.
This is why I will never do BJJ.
One wrong sparring partner and you get a debilitating life long injury.
Hey Brian, Thanks for your content, i always find it super interesting. I was wondering whether you also could explain some of the healing procedures to those injuries, how it gets repaired in operations and the kind of training afterwards. Im not sure thats feasible, nor whether it is commercially viable, but yeah... i think that would be great :)
There is a reason why, under most rule sets, heel hooks are not allowed for teens and not allowed until black belt. You need experience and maturity to be able to do them in a controlled way that gives your opponent time to tap.
If you have the correct positioning (both the keg entanglement and the grips) it takes very little pressure to get the submission.
ehh, in 10 years this kid could be like Palhares. There's no "maturity test" (or hell, psychological tests to make sure competitors aren't sociopaths) and merely being 18, or 20 years old or w/e is not an adequate test imo.
Great breakdown. This gave me a deeper understanding of the mechanic of heel hooks.
I'm just confused, my old training camp called heel hooks jamming your heels into the others groans when you have their back, and separating the Thigh Bone from it's Socket in the Hips. I trained with an Asian Master an Aikido Master but mostly with his son doing MMA, starting before UFC...
@@randyross5630 I’m pretty sure what you’ve described is a “toe hold” Not a heel hook.
The inside heel hook from the saddle position is the most devastating submission (excluding the lateral vascular restraint and tracheal crush) in submission grappling.
The saddle controls your opponent’s knee line in a flexed knee position, making it very difficult to disengage.
1 cm of rotational force on the flexed knee is enough to devastate the knee.
Tough to watch.
They were in 50/50 but yeah... really dangerous regardless
@@cavbaron3634
Thanks.
I couldn’t see the initial set up from that clip length and angle, i.e. saddle, 411, 50/50.
That was brutal man.
I usually tap as soon as someone has control of my heel, but I only do it because a lot of people are dirty or just careless. But it should not be like that, I have a couple of good partners whom I trust and with them it is possible to work a bit more on heel hooks.
I never want to see these moves being banned but there is a need for some rules around these, there's a couple already but it's not enough to me. Not allowing whithe belts to use em is fine but it still allows careless people to earn their right to ruin someone's knee when they are promoted to blue belt. I do not know what should be done, but we need to deal with this.
Yea like there is a check mate. Knee is controlled, check, bite on the heel, TAP
In combat sports, respect is a huge thing. If he doesn’t learn real quick that you need to give a chance for a tap, you’re opponents will refuse to fight or will wreck you if given the chance.
connor mcgreggor would disagree.
@@yaboi-km2qn He's only won one fight by submission, and the majority of his losses comes from him tapping out. You picked a terrible example, meathead.
When i became a Paramedic the first thing the instructor said was "Now you have the ability to kill someone!" (because paramedics can administer powerful cardiac meds, sedatives etc.). And with that comes great responsibility!" The same with grappling. I tell my son that the grappling skills I show him come with great responsibility because you can kill or seriously injure someone with these techniques. You give your opponent time to tap ESPECIALLY with this technique. The goal of submission fighting is to end a fight without serious injury by giving your opponent a chance to tap out.
Not in competition.
I would agree but its competition
Guys. 95 percent of people in BJJ gyms AND COMPETITIONS are fathers mothers with jobs and a life. Also this kid is know for doing this RIPPING instead of submitting. Comments like this prove you know nothing of true injury and responsibility. It’s called submission grappling! That implies restraint esp on a heel hook.
@@saintbenitz6291 even in UFC, fighters don't get to that extreme they let the chance to tap
@@mrexpose2790 and that’s why no one will remember their name
Thank you for raising awareness about this subject.
Sounds like this kid needs to be taught a lesson!
He needs his baws toed
Kid has to learn the Golden Rule. Throw him on the other side of that and that’ll be a real quick learning experience. I wonder what kind of repercussions he might get
He’s done this more than once and doesn’t show any remorse. He’s cranking on it because of a lack of skill and control. He’s gonna run into a wall soon and I hope they show the same restraint he shows others
I'm sure he and his parents would cry child abuse if he was on the receiving end.
@@agh9224 Don't worry bro, he'll truly understand when someone purposely shatters his acl, and rips his fucking tendons, and ligaments
I'm glad to see EBI is getting some love it's the best submission only tournament out there in my opinion also he'll hugs have been prevalent for the last 6 years since the den of her death squad debuted everyone's doing them it's not going anywhere
Excellent explanation, Dr!
Khabib : "Careful, careful."
Control your hips.
Bingo
I am a black belt and love your breakdowns of these techniques / injuries. Leglocks are amazing but are scary when these things happen.
I find it very Interesting to hear the anatomy of the knee and the pressure a heel hook causes, Lachlan Giles also speaks wisdom when it comes to the knee and grappling.
Great vid! keep it up.
Totally agree 💯. The best in the sport in leg locks gives time for their opponent to tap.
Dr how does it feel to be out here saving lives and TH-cam at the same time?? Inspiring. 🙏
This is how u cause life-altering injuries - as in - the person will not only have to retire, but they’ll potentially never be able to walk, run, exercise, or sleep the same ever again…
Yea that knee will never be the same. There is always a jerk or maniac out there that will push it too far and intentionally cripple people. I would argue that the move should just be banned to avoid something like this happening again. That move can only cause severe injuries.
im no expert but that should be illegal. Not the move, but the intention of it. Nobody heel hooks like that in the UFC. And they have way more on the line than these two bozos.
Exactly! I think this kid should be banned apparently its not his first time doing it to someone
Remember they permanently banned this bjj guy housimar phalhares? This guys dirty by pretending not to hear the tap or referee stoppage so he can do a lot of damage to his opponents leg n knee. He is perma ban and labelled dangerous athlete in the ufc
lol cause ufc fighters are doing it wrong. this kid understands the *breaking mechanics* and ufc fighters don’t
@@damnson6556 actually the kids technique is not great lol. He cranks to compensate for lack of technique and control. But yeah, unfortunately he does have the breaking mechanics down in the most literal sense
@@damnson6556 yeah you're right people like gilbert burns just don't understand the mechanics of BJJ. They just aren't as skilled as this fat 16 year old blue belt to be able to crank a heel hook with all your weight.
Very nice video... Thank you. I train I TAP as soon as the trap is on with my voice... Well said having control to control makes a master the best for being able to not create damage... Nice video
At a bjj school I visited for about 2 months, leg attacks seemed encouraged to white belts. I didn’t think this was a good idea since anyone rolling with a white belt can understand why. Anyway, I saw a wb injure another wb with something like that and eventually the student was kicked out because of his behavior. I think the school needed to reassess their approach to teaching wb leg locks. As most beginners focus on the win instead of shaping their technique.
I am most certainly not a fighting expert or medical but I like to learn a lot about both of these fields and I think pretty much all submissions other than choking ones are very dangerous because, at any moment a submission is attempted you could snap a whole bunch of different things on the other fighter if you pull hard enough
That’s why you train, the first thing you learn is how to protect yourself. The problem is there are killers and dreamers and when they meet it’s not good.
It's a move that should be taught for real life situations. My opinions on competition are a bit mixed. Im not the biggest guy and this move has saved me from getting destroyed on the matt but because of how damaging it can be, I leave it as a last resort.
Very gruesome, and excellent presentation.
Phenom: People like Gordon Ryan or Craig Jones who are elite world level leg attackers, but almost always give the opponent time to tap after they establish control of the heel. If you don't tap, they they will proceed in destroying the leg.
Aggro kid good at leglocks: Grabs whatever is out there and tries to take it home as the trophy. He reminds me a bit of Ruosimar Palhares in that he doesn't give opponents even a split second to tap.
palhares wouldnt let go after the tap, thats what got him in trouble, this kid didnt do that
@@joeallan3706 But same as Palhares he showed no restraint in injuring his opponent.
@@JLewis1979 you mean he went for the sub full on? thats the point i thought. he followed the rules, didnt hold the sub longer then he had to. all on the up and up imo
@@joeallan3706 He followed the rules, just not the etiquette of giving your opponent a chance to tap before seriously injuring them.
@@joeallan3706 He didn't go for a submission; he went for an injury. There's a difference.
Idk if it should be banned cus I know nothing about BJJ. What I can say is it’s a dick move to torque a submission before your opponent has an opportunity to tap out.
Man what's wrong with that dude. Who does that
Teenagers
And Rousimar P.
A Mfer who doesn't care.
winners
@@damnson6556 right.
I don’t know how to explain this other than other competitors don’t do this. Once it’s sunk in, they give a chance to tap at least because they aren’t trying to ruin careers. If they don’t tap, then they pull all the way which is understandable. Grappling isn’t a fight like MMA, which is a sport and a fight. Grappling is a sport, there’s no need for this.
His name is pat shagahogli people think he’s a bad BJJ competitor and will brake people on purpose
Why would anyone try and give their opponent a fair opportunity to tap in a highly competitive contest
Because it’s how you win. The only way someone should be injured in tournament play is if they refuse to tap. Trying to cause injury in a tournament is total bs
More medical breakdowns of jiu jitsu please!!!
His application is the truly dangerous part. Any submission if gripped and ripped like that will cause severe injury. That is the purpose of submission; either submit or you will get injured. His attitude implies he intended to injure. He didn’t give a chance for submission, he ripped and stood up knowing that he ended his opponent in that moment. Imagine if he did this on a neck crank.
So when I roll, I do no leg locks. I can’t risk some guy yanking my ankle when I have work the next day. I don’t do competitions and won’t. An injury like this scares me, but I do think more people should try BJJ. This may scare some people off though.
I agree. Leglocks are so dangerous if BJJ/grappling isn't your main income. An average family man can't afford to be out of work for 6 months+ if they have a job that involves labor or a lot of walking.
I once popped my knee out trying to scramble under someone for the heel hook.
Heel hooks are fine as long as you train with people who don't put it on.
I actually don't even know how to finish a heel hook. Never learned. I just hold them tight.
@@isupportthecurrentthing.1514 Well that's simply flawed training. Either don't train them at all or train them properly. How can you train a heel hook if you don't know how to finish it? Even though I don't roll with leg attacks, I have trained the techniques and escapes in slow motion during very controlled technique training (Not rolling, simple demonstration of the technique with no force at all.) so if all else fails I at least know the basic escapes and how to finish it myself. You can train every technique without actually putting yourself or your partner in danger. (Except explosive techniques like flying triangles/armbars, etc.) That doesn't mean you have to use that technique while live rolling.
@@JLewis1979 I assume I just pull and twist , right ?
@@isupportthecurrentthing.1514 There's a lot more involved than just that, such as different leg placements, defending your own legs in the process, whether it's an outside or inside heel hook, or even a straight anklelock. I'm not qualified to be a teacher, so I won't give specific technique advice, but there are good BJJ dojos and even great instructionals that could do a much better job than I ever could with mere typed words being just a hobby grappler myself.
You can see the look in his face as Shahgholi is starting to apply the heel hook. He was actually tapping as Shahgholi continued to follow through with the move.
The biggest issue I see here is a young man who isn't focused on the well being of his opponents. I am NOT saying Shahgholi is being malicious in nature. Being focused on protecting a fellow competitor is just a skill that takes building upon and this young man hasn't learned that skill yet. In this footage here, he is clearly controlling the situation, his opponent has no where to go. He could have taken this much slower than he did.
Its the equivalency of being bit by a baby rattlesnake versus an adult rattlesnake. The baby delivers a greater portion of poison because it doesn't know how to control its flow of venom. Shahgholi is like a baby rattlesnake, he only knows how to rip these heel hooks, making him super dangerous.
He’s not focusing on the welfare of his opponents, yet isn’t malicious.. 😂
You train to break limbs. The person who is grappling must tap
Hey! Can you review Daniel Bellinger’s eye injury? Please 🤲🏽 love your channel!
Hey Doc, I smacked my knee cap on the pavement last week when I endo'd my bicycle. Have you done any videos on blunt force to the patella? Bc holy hell it sucks! (I'm sure a tight quad didn't help)
Same, I walked mine into a trailer hitch when I was a small child. Ive had a swollen larger knee since
This is an example of someone using large amounts of force in place of good technique. No one whos a prolific leg locker performs heel hooks like this.
I'll start off by saying I know nothing about the MMA community but I imagine there is a certain level of respect and restraint exercised and given to your opponent. Intentionally trying to injure someone so severely sounds like a great way to get caught outside the ring if you know what I mean.
Coming from a 12 year BJJ guy. if I see this guy in a gym somewhere(I travel a lot), I am breaking something of his. No respect for him whatsoever
@@jasonsharpe9963 Yes and step over him after you do it.
@@jasonsharpe9963 because he ripped a submission? Against someone in a tournament that had 50k on the line?
@@justincarter1217 tournament or not. You don’t purposely rip someone’s knee out of place. That type of demeanor has no place in this sport. He will find someone that will break him…hopefully. If not, he’s going to be on the wrong end of a gun if he continues.
I’m assuming you don’t train, not compete in BJJ?
Edit: AHH sorry didn’t see your profile picture. I’m going to assume you are a blue belt? Probably 2-3 years into the sport? If so, I don’t mean to be ‘that guy’ but, you still have a long way to go.
Leg locks are more dangerous than mostly every other submission in the game; Especially heel hooks.
Even if it is for money, or fame, or both. You do not yank into a heel hook with all of your might like he does.
And if you do, you will find that many BJJ guys take it personal and will see to it that you are held responsible.
In some places, like on the US, that means an ass whooping.
In places like São Paulo, Colombia, Russia, many Eastern European countries; this will get you killed.
This kid is lucky he lives and trains in the US.
@@jasonsharpe9963 best comment ever. This kid is lucky. Even 50 years ago he would be a TARRRRRGEEEET. In every country in the world. America is soft so I guess he has some protection, and he better not ever do that in those places you mentioned.
Wow so much detail in this video. I was searching for my LCL lol
I hurt my knee playing basketball 12 days ago, it happened while i was running. Since then my knee is starting to feel much better than before but i still have little swelling under my knee cap, I don’t know what caused the injury(didnt go doctor) But is that a good sign that it is going to heal and that it wasn’t anything serious? as in a torn ligament or something in that nature?
The problem with heel hooks is that part of making the move sucessful is that you kinda need to commit to it fast. Especially since the grappling meta today is so centered around leg locks/leg entanglements so people know their way around the leg lock game. But it's also a move that is so dangerous, especially when done fast.
Yes guys at the professional won’t tap a move if it’s applied slowly. That’s just the nature of competition. They push themselves to limit and hold out in submissions far longer than a normal hobbyist would so I think telling guys to go slow and give time to tap at a high level competition isn’t going to resonate with those competitors. If it’s truely too dangerous then perhaps it should just be banned in wider competition.
This is the reason the kani basami and full Nelson and standing waki gatame are banned techniques it’s not that they can’t be done safely but it’s the problems that arise when an opponent refuses to yield which leads to the person applying to do it harder and faster since they have less control to apply it in a controlled manner.
What’s ironic is that we often chide traditional and non sparring martial arts about moves that are “too dangerous” but that’s exactly what these moves are. There are techniques out there that are very dangerous to apply safely and in a controlled manner and once they are removed from competition they usually become lost to the art if it’s a sport focused art. You can’t really have it both ways with the high level competition and the dangerous techniques.
@@holdenmuganda97 couldn't agree more, the Kani basami is another great example. No way you can do that slow to another high level opponent who is resisting
There is a reason that leg submissions are so frowned upon in the grappling community. It is frustratingly easy to do major damage without much effort, and the fact that we can call him a 16 year old phenom but he doesn't understand that already is disgusting.
Are you a grappler? Is it wrong to consider him a phenom? Idk the line between danger and skill in this case. Not critical of your comment, I’m genuinely asking since I’m not in the community
@@BrianSuttererMD even in the Marine Corps leg locks were forbidden when grappling. The technique was trained but forbidden unless in an actual fight. The kid is a jackass and menace not a phenom
@@BrianSuttererMD I think the problem is his fast rise without understanding the sportsmanship behind it all
@@BrianSuttererMD @Brian Sutterer MD I wouldn't call myself an avid grappler, but I have some understanding of the sports goings on. It's not wrong to call him a phenom in a technical sense, he does understand what he is doing practically.
There is always some assumption of risk in BJJ because of the way the sport tends to isolate joints and move them in ways that could conceivably cause damage. Longtime practitioners will tell you, though, that there are unwritten rules that exist. Leg submissions are considered especially dangerous, and are not typically allowed to be used by anyone below a certain level of belt in practice settings.
"Phenomenal" in my mind, is an overall term, and refers to a level of understanding that most others cannot meet. Not understanding how dangerous those submissions can be, or not understanding why you should be careful in applying them, is an indication that this teenager is not ready to be competing at the level he is currently at.
It's not that he isn't skilled, it's that his overall ability doesn't mesh with the expectations of his competition.
@@BrianSuttererMD as a bjj guy he isn't a phenom really and this event had 50k on the line, an insane amt for these level of grapplers. He ripped the inside heel hook which doesn't require a lot of technique, he didn't engage his hips even (which usually is the breaking mechanism), but he was going for the 50k. It is almost more on the guy who got injured for not tapping quicker or defending in a more meaningful way than hand fighting.
Leg locks to me are no different than any other joint submission. If applied slowly and correctly, they’re just as safe as anything else. I’ve seen terrible damage caused by people ripping kimuras, arm bars, and even wrist locks. Any submission is dangerous, but it’s also the name of the game. There is usually that respect for your opponent to give them the time to tap, and then there’s the competitors that have every intention of getting the break. Generally the guys who intend on getting the break and not afford an opportunity for their opponent to tap get a bad reputation and it gets harder and harder for them to get matches. Unfortunately no one really knew who this kid was before the qualifiers and had no idea that’s the type of competitor he is. I hope he changes, but is still willing to get the break AFTER affording opportunity for the tap. It’s a fine line to walk.
Hey Doc, id love for you to touch on the Luke Kwon (golfer) Epidural hematoma video he just posted. I'd love to know more about brain bleeds.
There is a reason why Leg locks are banned in many tournaments, this is why. Usually the minimum amount of “skill” needed is a brown or black belt. If you don’t do it properly in a nondestructive manner this happens.
Can you do a video on Giants TE Daniel Bellinger? Got poked in the face mask and somehow broke his eye socket, and his septum.
Same
Although I feel he doesn’t have the footage to go by. It’ll have to wait for a medical report.
What is this program you are using to show the bones? Could you send the name or the link?
To avoid injury is it always better to keep knee fully extended? Like in muay thai or nfl better to be fully extended?
I’ve been training for sometime. This is what you do when you can’t properly execute a controlled heel hook and rely on your explosiveness to finish it rather than controlling and locking the entire limb and letting your opponent feel the breaking pressure. When you do it correctly your opponent is entirely locked down and you have full control of their lower half and any pressure applied is enough to tap. I don’t want to say Pat is malicious here, just poorly executed and relying on muscle over technique. It’s unfortunate and a really bad look on the sport.
When training with someone like Gordon and Nicky Rod in the past, there was never a need to rip the heel like that. You just feel the level of control and the breaking pressure with ample time to tap. Even at the highest level of comp (ADCC) you will not see this type of spaz behavior.
That is definitely malicious explosiveness has no place in submissions im all for snappin arms or legs if they dont tap when given the opportunity but to just rip a sub straight to the snap is ridiculous id have filled that kid with lead in the parking lot lol
Get this dude in a boxing ring and show him a lesson.
When I trained catch, we loved heel hooks. But we were strictly warned to apply it slowly because it’s so fast that it can damage before the opponent even realizes it’s locked in.
Just curious but anyone know what happened with Pat Shahgholi's opponent in this video? What exactly was the damage done to his knee, ankle, fibula/tibula, etc.? I'm not really familiar with the MMA/BJJ community so I don't know how much info is shared about injuries and recovery, but I'm just curious to know how extensive the damage was and if this guy will ever be able to compete again. Tried googling it, but all I got was info about the incident itself and nothing about what happened after.
No info I could find either but this move in particular can and will rip the tendons and ligaments in the knee apart. I'm talking complete ACL MCL and LCL tearing.
@@zleggitt1989 Thanks for the response! And that makes sense; I kind of got a Shaun Livingston's-knee-injury vibe from watching the clip, but I'm not sure how appropriate that comparison is. But I do hope this guy gets all the help he needs to fix his leg.
Thank you for showing some love to BJJ/grappling!
I don’t even wanna watch the video it will just upset me but I’m just here to say to any new martial artists, have respect for the people willing to go head to head with you
It frustrates me greatly to see
jesus christ😪 thanks for the breakdown doc that one looked painful even for you😂
Ken Shamrock did this on a guy and I’ve never seen someone scream so loud in a fight.
Think they should only be allowed in black belt high level competition. Letting any purple belt start grabbing those a lot of egos are going to get people hurt. Also if someone has an inside heel hook, just tap and give it up. That’s a seriously dangerous position even without that much torque on it.
Heel hooks are tricky because it doesn't actually hurt until it's too late.
Nah man heel hooks def hurt as soon as the knee is locked and you can’t spin you can feel your ligament being strained. But you are right as if you tap after a heel hook and something hurts then something is probably torn lol
@@matthewferoz17 not at all, ive injured myself twice in heel hooks and i legit didn’t feel any pain both times
@@mustifn5940 That's crazy man, thats why I tap as soon as I get put in one lol fuck heel slippin
Jiu-Jitsu blue belt here. As someone who does leg locks frequently, this was hard to watch. It is well known to be safe with applying heel hooks like this, and watching this was very frustrating. You have to give your opponent the chance to tap
Bro this is a competition. And I know of pat. I’ve trained with him. That kid is a thoroughbred killer. Born to take limbs home. He doesn’t play a soft man’s game. In your gym everyone’s just learning. In competition, it’s kill. And the slightest time you give a good black belt to slip his heel and your heel hook is gone. If this bothers people I’d recommend watch baseball instead. Pat might be a blue belt right now, but that kid has brown/black belt level submission grappling. He’s leagues and leagues and leagues better than your average blue belt. This kids gonna be a pro. You will see him at ADCC in a couple years it would not surprise me.
Give them a chance to tap in training, not in competition/fight. How do you get to blue belt without knowing this?
Obviously in competition, the speed of any submission is going to be faster than in the training room. With any submission though, if you have enough control, you don’t need to go from 0 to 100 right away. When I’ve competed, I apply submissions quickly, but I don’t feel the need to immediately break their limbs. Just my thoughts on the issue
@@aaronunderwood3545 The fat kid is so good at BJJ he has to use brute force and the full weight of his breasts in lieu of technique. I don’t understand how people can post this trite mouthbreather shit online with their real names. This is a real Aaron take buddy hopefully you grow up some day bud.
No video needed but what is your take on the Daniel Bellinger injury? How long is it likely to take for recovery
This man is a straight up menace
The position is called 50/50. They both have a heal hook from there. Not the first time I've seen this happen. Heal hooks have just become legal in ibjjf nogi competitions for brown and blackbelt adult competitors a couple years ago. Before that they were totally banned. In a lot of other tournaments they have been legal for a while. Ripping the submission is a mixed bag. On one hand you are injuring your opponent who might have a job, family and kids to feed. On the other hand if you don't you might not get the submission. I've given people time to tap only for them to wiggle out. Typically if it's an important tournament I just rip it and let go as soon as I here or feel a tap. If I'm beating up an old guy at a local match I'll never rip anything and just win by points. Part of the sport but yeah the guy seems like a d-bag. The bigger no no is the fact that the guy probably verbally tapped and the guy kept moving and holding the lock.
You are watering it down. This isn’t a bruise that will heal in a week that causes a slight limp. It’s a permanent injury that will never heal completely. That’s why we have rules in most sports that attempt to remove the possibility for permanent injuries. With your mentality I would say it’s better to just ban the move entirely so somebody doesn’t end up crippled because you think it’s more important to win a competition
@@strafer8764 it's just a brutal sport man. Look at this video th-cam.com/video/IvCeSK5guUM/w-d-xo.html Craig jones pops the guys knee in the first minute and the guy refuses to tap. He pops it again and the guy won't tap. Craig literally has to talk to him down and convince him to stop. Many world titles have been won because people choose to let their own arms break and won by points. Heel hooks are dangerous because you don't feel the pain much before the break. It's the responsibility of the athlete to tap. Like I said I'm more mad as the guy not because he cranked the knee but because he obvious didn't respect the tap. If you scream in pain it's a verbal tap. I partially toor my mcl because I tried to move my body in a strange way to take the back. I continued fighting and got on the podium because of it. It was a three month recovery but well worth it. The high level athletes don't need people protecting them they choose to put themselves in those situations. It all just comes down to respecting the tap. If we want to protect athletes from injuries we should just ban football. It causes more injuries and deaths than anything else. 8-10 high schoolers die every year. One of are teenagers has been doing bjj all his life and after one season of football he's already sustained a major sholder injury. Heal hooks and all bjj it pretty safe.
Geez that 16 year old kid is brutal. I get wanting to submit his opponent, but nearly breaking their ankle is too dangerous he should've just lock it it until the opponent gave up instead of nearly breaking the ankle unless the opponent was showing reliance which in that case props to them on being resilient
That is what the fighter is SUPPOSED to do.
Fuck the ankle that dudes knee is literally shredded
@@sladewilson9741 Sportsmanship is giving the opponent a chance to tap. That's why you see people tap quickly when in an arm bar because they know they can get out of it. The other guy knew he couldn't get out and would have tapped if given the chance. If they don't tap then you know what to do. Ruining someone's career isn't the first goal.
@@AnthonyMcNeil it’s a fight cry about it
idiot above me^
This wasn't his training partner this was his opponent. In a $50K match. We rarely see doctors telling boxers, "oh you punched him too hard in the head, or "you didn't give your opponent a chance to duck the punch." And Jiu Jitsu is far less violent sport with far less life threatening injuries. At this level his opponent knew the submission was on, and ALSO at this level your opponents WILL NOT TAP to a slow submissions. They will try everything to fight out of it. If you follow the sport you will see competitors get their entire foot or arm ripped off before they tap. Pat executed this move perfectly during a professional competition. He has never and would never do this during a roll in class with his partners, or ANY other instances besides a competition. You should watch more of his matches where the adults try to hurt him, and grow more and more frustrated when they can't. They disrespect him and his Jiu Jitsu because they look at his size and his age and believe he can't submit them. And NONE of them are complaining, they know his game and what they signed up for, and this guy in particular STILL decided to play legs with Pat, and not tap early. Everyone knows you DONT go 50/50 with Pat. You can discuss the injury but if you don't know about the sport, compete at this level, and have insight to leg locks, then most of this is mute. You didn't show after the match his sportsmanship and how he thanked his opponent. If you have never competed you wont understand the adrenaline rush you get when it's finally over. So yeah he raised his hands in excitement -mostly relief. Fighters do it all the time, and then go back and check on their OPPONENTS. It's not Pats job to protect his opponent; it is his opponent's job and the ref. He executed this submission well and IMMEDIATELY let it go once he got the tap. He didn't even wait for the ref to tell him to let go, which is what you are SUPPOSED to do in competitions. So again if you don't know the sport...then we especially shouldn't be villafying the 16 YEAR OLD KID 🤷🏾♀️
Kid had 0 regard for his opponent he just woke up and chose violence
Heel hooks are why I stopped BJJ
I was considering getting back into martial arts and starting bjj after my ACL tore for a second time last year. I considered bjj because i dont risk the concussive force of a leg kick rupturing the ACL again... i think I'll pass now
do boxing, relatively harmless on most of the body (except brain damage, but if you find a gym where you can do lighter sparring and where people aren't dicks, you're fine)
Risk of injury in bjj is actually quite low. There are always exceptions and there is always complete a holes like this kid. I've been doing bjj for about 2 years and have been injured only once on a white belt mistake of my own. We train leg locks and emphasize how dangerous they can be and how little effort it takes to destroy someone's knees. This kid either has had terrible coaching or just plain doesn't care about hurting people. If I was his coach I would kick him out of my school and I know most instructors that would and would not tolerate this at all. If you look up high level ju jitsu and leg locks you can see that once the submission is locked in, the tap is either instant or very little pressure is applied to get the tap.
@@zleggitt1989 even still, I've had repeat knee injuries. 2 ACL tears and 3 meniscus tears all in the same knee. If there's a small risk for you it's probably bigger for myself. Didn't consider that until watching this video
@@zleggitt1989 I personally have had neck/back issues from a can opener, no knee injuries bc I tap whenever I lose control of their hands in a leg entanglement (even if people think I'm tapping too early, I don't care, I need my legs to make a living). I bet spine and knee problems are the most common from grappling
Absolute disaster. As someone who grapples on a regular basis this gets me really mad. I once had a similar situation when I got locked in an armbar and the guy was way too fast and too much in his zone that he responded to my double tap (universal sign to submit) when my elbow was already hyperextended.
I was unable to train BJJ for more than half a year because of it. People like that should be put in their place and humbled, if you ask me. This has nothing to do with sport and/ or competition anymore - simply brutish. He should definitely be banned.
Thank you doc for poiting this out.
I hope it will reach a lot of people, especially of the grappling world.
Should serve as a prime example in any gym how NOT to behave.
Might as well be a white belt with disrespect like that and shows his immaturity too. There was one guy that was around 17 that I used to roll w/ and he tried wrenching my shoulder twice two separate times with an Americana and I got super pissed at him. I quit rolling with him after that because there's no reason to forcefully go for a joint submission. It takes hardly any real pressure when applying a joint submission like a heel hook or shoulder lock which is why they are so effective.
You nailed it and agree 110% that I hope someone is coaching him better in how to handle these types of things better with respect for his opponents and their livelihood that he could potentially be destroying.
Cool story bro
I’d love to hear the thoughts of a competitor. An actual competitor… this is in fact a legal move or no? If it is legal are there rules governing the application of it? Was this a one time bang bang type of situation? It happened very fast by my very untrained eye. We don’t want to see people get injured but is this a calculated risk when competing? It looks brutal but I’m not sure if I should be outraged like everyone else in the comments.
This move is called a heel hook and it is legal under most no gi rule sets for purple belts and above. Generally, it is considered courteous and sportsmanlike to slowly apply submissions. However, there is no rule in any organization which says that you must apply a submission in a way that will not injure your opponent. A rule like that, in fact, cannot exist because all submissions are meant to hurt your opponent in some way if they do not submit in time.
Yeah, it's legal in even lower level competitions for purple belt and up adults. I've competed in masters (old man) divisions where they were allowed, but you didn't see them much.
16 yr olds are NOT allowed to -- for this very reason. They don't have the maturity. No control, no sense of consequences.
Check out this year's ADCC finals match between Gordon Ryan and Nick Rodriguez. All control, no crank, no injury. Nick knew when to tap and Gordon gave him time to do it.
@@bsenka bro you’re speaking on young men, that COMPETE. You realize this 16 year old young man is competing against grown ass black belts that been training in some cases longer than he’s been alive? Please chill with this soft shit. You just compared a 16 year old kid competing at black belt to gordon Ryan. Are you mentally deficient?
I’m a purple belt competed for awhile. This kid didn’t do a DAMN thing wrong. Our soft ass society just isn’t prepared for any of the ugly of life. Nobody likes seeing a dude get injured… but these boys ain’t playing paddy cake. These guys are modern day unarmed assassins. Don’t let any of these soy dieting untrained soft peoole speak negatively on patty’s name. Put some respecccc on it.
@@aaronunderwood3545 I didn't 'compare' them, I specifically said there was a big difference between them -- that huge difference is the reason this move is generally not allowed for lower level competitors and for teenagers. A wild kid with no control can easily seriously injure people, while mature, experienced high-level competitors hardly ever do.
You may not like it, but Pat Shagholi is what peak athletic performance looks like
Great video.
Looks pretty malicious to me. This kid has done this enough to know how far you can go, and he just blew right past it and didn't seem phased at all. The honor system ain't what it used to be.
Kids a psycho
The child’s family should pay ALL this man’s medical bills
Fully agree and stil that knee will never be the same so a life time ban on top of that.
This injury is life long so they should be responsible for his lifelong care and rehab. This kid had no regard to safety or the opponent's life. Absolutely disgusting.
That hair is ‘too dangerous’ for society💯🤣🤣
Heel hooks are known to be a more dangerous move than most most. Once we fell to his back he should have slowly rotated, giving his opponent the chance to tap.
BJJ has finally arrived to Dr. Sutterer’s channel! He’s competing at the professional level for a substantial cash prize. At the highest level or any sport you do not take it easy. If this were a regional competition (as some say he’s done similar at) then I’d say went too hard. If you’re at the highest level then prepare for this type of aggression.
The only rational take.
Yup.
Fuck yeah! we should allow testicle twisting, biting, and eye gouging as well!
Boxing and MMA don't allow eye gouging, strikes to the back of the head, soccer kicks, and knee blows to the head when the opponent is downed. Rousimar Palhares got kicked out of the UFC for hanging on to heel hooks for too long, multiple times. This is not a gladiatorial pit where losers get eaten by lions or crippled for the rest of their lives. Good luck finding new champions if this becomes the norm because they will be in wheelchairs.
@@Harrison13foxOEF I mean you could try that on a Brazilian Jiu jutsu practitioner and see how that goes for you.
I checked this kid's Instagram profile and he's joking about this whole situation. He is provoking, like "this is what happens when you roll with me 🔥" and the fans are laughing about it and hyping him for doing this shit.
It's really sad to see how stupid some teenagers are
No hespect
What’s his name?
@@FEFSPORTS it's in the description
And he’s taking the piss on his social media out of ruining someone’s leg
This kind of thing happens frequently. Shagholi did nothing wrong here. He had submitted 6 other high level black belts with this heel hook coming into this tournament, you’d think his opponents would’ve been careful of it, but each and every one sits right into 50/50 and doesn’t tap early enough. At a competition at this high of a level and this amount of competition, this is perfectly acceptable. Everyone has to practice their own self preservation in this sport. Respect was shown by Pat before, after, and during his matches to each opponent, and they didn’t respect his danger back.
What kind of a brain dead take is this? There was 0 chance to tap. You’re implying that the opponent should have immediately tapped the moment he entered 50/50, since there was no chance to tap thereafter. The kid was reckless and should be instant,y banned from all grappling competition
@@kickboxing3728 you ever watch the best leg lockers in high level comp? They don’t crank legs because the tap comes out the second their hands lock. Look at Gordon Ryan’s matches from adcc. This kid is a top level leg locker, that tap didn’t come at the lock, and in comps like these if you sub slow or give the time to tap, people of that level are already escaping. That’s how the game is up there
FACTS
@@kickboxing3728 opponent should’ve tapped the second his legs were separated and his heel was caught