now. That IS clever. A glue chuck, who woulda' thought. When I change to my alternate identity as a wood woodworker, I have used the glue technique for years: the workpiece, a piece of brown paper then a plate for screws to hold all to the faceplate of the lathe. A sharp knife splits the finished work from the holding plate and some sandpaper to clean it up. Never thought of it for metal work. Kurt, you are the expert. keep teaching the rest of us...
In the factory, we had a 30 ton press that would walk away from the assembly line from vibration. We glued it to the floor with super glue. 5 years later when we moved it, parts of the floor came up where we glued the foot.
Great technic Keith. Thanks for showing us how to do that. CA glue is a great product, I use it all the time in my shop, but I've never used it to hold a metal part in the lathe. I'm a luthier and and there are countless tricks you can use it for on instrument repairs, every thing from joining parts together to finish and binding repairs also, you can mix it with baking soda and it makes a solid hard plastic like material, comes in handy for repairing worn out bridge pin holes in a bridgeplate. Good video
I am learning a lot from your videos. I had a hard time hearing you in the beginning but a friend told me how to add a graphic eq to my chrome browser so Now I can filter out much of the noise from the milling and concentrate on your narration. I don't have any machining tools but I have wood working tools and What I want to do is use machining methods to make prototypes of parts I want to be machined without the expensive metals. I hope that watching your videos and others will make me understand the processes better without having to buy the expensive tools. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
"Free material, even better". That's not being 'cheap' Keith, that's being frugal. I remember my Grandad saying; "Look after the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves". Really enjoyed this video of a "glue chuck"! Cheers.
I have never used the glue chuck on the metal lathe before. I have used it many times on the wood lathe. When I was in high school taking wood shop my shop teacher taught it to me. We always glued the blank to the wood waste stock with wood glue and several layers of paper. The paper made for a very nice parting point that could easily be split off with a wood chisel. Then you only needed to do a little sanding on the bottom of the bowl to remove the remaining paper and glue. CA glue works great for filling cracks and voids when wood working. I have used it for years. Definitely going to keep this trick in the back of my mind for future reference. Thanks! Mike
@@VintageMachinery Turning and milling metals and plastics. I don't do woodwor really,, but the glue chuck works great for some things, just have to keel tool pressure low.
+Amateur Redneck Workshop Thanks - it is nice to have friends who will help me out for sure. If I were drilling these by hand, I would probably only make the two main plates that I need rather than the whole set.
+Ian Butler It is not always easy, particularly when I am really busy with my "real job" or on the road for several weeks in a row. Fortunately, I was able to get several videos shot and edited over my Christmas break that I will be releasing over the next few weeks as I am getting back into a pretty busy season at work.....
Excellent video. I have also made indexing plates but in quite a different way. I needed some gears for a lathe so I used the original gears that would eventually wear out, made a device to indicate each tooth, punched the locations required on my blank then drilled them out. It was very time consuming to make the plate but it worked out beautifully. I like the glue chuck method, that will come in handy in the future. Thank you very much for the video. Being an old machinist I appreciate your work. Thumbs up. Take care.
I started watching last night and wouldn't you know it... I took a computer nap. Finished up this morning and was amazed at the glue chuck! Great idea but be sure you don't get it between your fingers; "You'll shoot your eye out!" Greg
Jeez man, I wanted to see the vintage method of drilling a dividing plate, so I sat through all that prep machining only for you to mail them off for CNC? That’s a half hour I’ll never get back!
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Didn't make dividing plates, but some very large spacer "washers". I tack welded the 4 together on the rims, bored the centre hole to size after drilling, then drilled the other 4 holes through everything. Put the stack back on the lathe with an arbor through the centre of the stack and machined the outer diameter taking the weld tacks off at the same time. Then used the arbor to face them off to the dia of the arbor. Finally held them by the outer dia in the chuck and faced off what was left of the boss. Funny how you can remember some jobs from 40 years ago, but can't remember what you had for breakfast.
Hi Keith, as usually i enjoyed your movie on an early weekend morning with a good and large cup of coffee. I will defiantly get me some super glue for my little home workshop. You have once again expanded my view on a new tool and on its endless uses :-) Thanks again and keep the movies coming. All the best from snowy Denmark, Jan
+jusb1066 Thanks. It would be nice to just buy some but they are pretty hard to find and probably pretty expensive if you do find them. One of the nice things about having a machine shop is you can make things like this!
Very nice presentation. I have considered making my own indexing plates. One of the things that worries me is the stress that may or may not be present in the original steel blanks. I've had too many pieces of steel warp when I turned them down to make them thinner. Have resigned myself to always annealing strange pieces of steel in a heat treating furnace before attempting to make a seriously precise tool. Cold rolled is in special need of annealing.
You could've speeded up the turning to diameter, by making a shouldered arbor, with a washer and locking nut (and mounting the plates two at a time, un-machined faces together), which would've allowed you to take far heavier cuts, and reserved the glue chuck for the facing.
A good project that a lot of people have a need for (including me for by B&S). The larger quantity superglue bottles available from FastCap (sold at Rockler) is really nice to have around. The kit with the different types of glue, activators and de-bonder is the way to go.
+Jack Hoying When I was doing a lot of wood turning, I had lots of big bottles of CA glue in different types (thin, med and thick) as well as activator and de-bonder. With my shop having been more or less packed up the past four of five years, all of my CA glue had dried up, hence the stuff I bought at Lowes. I need to restock my CA glue assortment.....
I would have gone ahead and put the 3 holes in and just mounted them on an arbor to do the turning and facing, especially with several to do. My Newall DRO has a bolt pattern function that would make putting the holes in the plates a pretty easy affair since all you have to do is provide a diameter and number of holes and it calculates all the positions for you. Doesn't the DRO on your Wells have a hole pattern function? Still easier to let the CNC do it but I bet you could do them pretty fast using the DRO too.
+bcbloc02 I considered doing the mounting holes, but the whole purpose of the glue chuck was to do the facing operation and not so much the outside diameter (which I was also using the center to apply pressure to everything making it also a friction chuck). If you mount the plate with bolts, you would have to face off the bolt heads to get the plate to the proper thickness.
Good job Keith.....one of those jobs that has 100 different ways to do it.....the biggest help would have been to use Kilroy's Val-Cut trepanning tool. I have had one on my list for some time, but cannot find anyone to mis-name it on Ebay so that I can afford it! I did find a 10" mag chuck which would have worked good! In the end.....all the same result!
+Jim Liechty Yeah, everybody keeps asking me why I did not use a terpanning tool. Because I don't have one and this little job would not justify buying one! As you say, in the end, it does not really matter how you skin the cat as long as you skin the cat....
+Joss Fitzsimons I have not had as much success with hot glue - super glue is much stronger. I have use double stick tape with success. You can also use loctite instead of super glue - it too is reversible with heat.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org...Right....CNC is great...you have a lot of stuff going on, not a lot of time....but nice to know you could make the plates the old=school way if you had to....
Keith, I learned another trick from watching your video . . . the glue chuck. That's a clever and very functional idea. As always, thanks so much for sharing your work and explaining what's going on. I'm not one for CNC, but in this case, I think you are spot on by removing the "human element" from the equation. Hopefully, there won't be much problem programming the CNC machine. Never have worked with a CNC, I have no idea what is involved in programming one. Good luck with the finished plates! Thanks again! Have a good one! Dave
+Swarf Rat I am no expert when it comes to CNC but basically my friend drew up the different hole patterns in AutoCad and was able to convert the drawing to a program to use on the mill. That is probably over simplified but I don't think that it took much effort.
nice job keith. i have used the glue technique in the past with success but as you mentioned ,heat is your enemy and turning a disk that size without tailstock pressure would scare me. with so many disks to do i think i would have made a mandrel that would have allowed me to bolt the disks. that would allow for much more aggressive turning and also serve to hold the disks on a rotary table or cnc mill. its good to have friends with cnc equipment.
+larry sperling I was using tail stock pressure for the diameter cutting, the only part I relied on the glue chuck was the facing operation, which really would be difficult to do with bolts holding it in place.
Since you (and I) like old-time stuff, it might interest you to know that old-time clock/watchmakers used glue chucks. They used shellac instead of superglue (not yet invented), works exactly like superglue but not as strong. I think using coolant was a very good idea. Thing to remember is that it is not instantaneous except maybe on a hot day. I allow 20 minutes to set.
+Juan Rivero Yes, clock makers have used the technique for centuries and machinist in general have used it for all kinds of jobs as well for many years. A lot of people use Titeloc instead of Superglue.
That was awesome i seen Tom use double sided tap once. but Super glue.. i would never of though it would work. cool tip i hope to try it one day. Thanks for sharing.
+one4stevo I like Superglue better than double stick tape as the tape tends to be a bit thick and has come cushion to it. I think you get more accurate results from glue as you have a more solid connection. You can also use Loctite.
Nice job Keith! I have used a boring bar with a slitting bit I ground to cut large disks like that so I would not have to cut so much down on the diameter.
+John McRae I gave something like that serious consideration but I did not have the right cutter to do it and just really did not want to grind a special HSS tool just for six parts. Maybe a bit lazy on my part but I think I got it done faster. The ones I did off camera went a lot faster because I played with the speed of the lathe and really sped things up.
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Nice job Keith, fun to watch man. Never seen a "glue chuck" on this size but worked out fine. I hope that you will show us the finished product, with maybe some photos during the CNC operations in progress.
I really wanted to see how you drilled all the holes. I was pretty disappointed that you just sent it out to have it done. The glue chuck was something I haven’t seen before though so I still gave you a thumbs up.
Thanks for the video. I guess there are many ways that you could have done the job but your method was novel. Part of the reason that I watch your videos is to learn different ways to work and you certainly achieve that
+John Linquist Thanks - there is nearly always more than one way to attack a problem. I like to watch other machinist to see how they go about solving things - and I usually pick up a few tips along the way!
another excellent video Keith, a few more very handy little tricks to make those difficult machining jobs that bit easier . Chris at Clickspring makes some incredible stuff , his attention to detail is amazing .
I'm older than dirt and I have never seen that done before darned clever. btw Eastman Kodak invented super glue and there was originally no solvent caused a lot of trips to the emergency room, now they use it to glue cuts back together.
+Richard Haisley I did not know the Kodak connection. I did know about the ER usage - my daughter had a cut glued back together when she was a young child.
Hi,thanks for this and all the other great videos.Chris (clickspring) can´t do that, when he works on brass, but working on thin steel plates, a magnetic chuck is also a possible way to hold those parts.
+Udo Willkomm A magnetic chuck would be an awesome thing to have. Unfortunately, I don't! But, it would be another way of getting this work holding done.
Hi Keith Nice job and a little tricky setup, I think ... if the "top" of your jaws is running true you could just open the jaws to a little under the size of the finished diameter and use dobble sided tape to hold the blank to the jaws and just use a center punch and a live center to press the blank against the jaws - I've used this method severel times - a little fasster and just as safe, I think.
+Keld Sørensen I use a "friction chuck" all the time. I think that what you are describing could have also gotten the job done. It just was not the order of steps I really wanted to do things in.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org I think it could have been much faster - but we all have our favorites - long to see how you "divide" the holes - teach us ;-))
Hello Keith, Again an interesting video and that trick with the glue chuck and see how strong that superglue can be. When I restored the hallway here in my house I used also a kind of superglue in stead of nails. We call it montagekit from Bison and is also a sort of superglue for different materials. Anyway, I curious to see the final 6 plates but I agree that it is to time consuming to make those holes all by hand. So a good choice to let them make by that friend with the CNC machine. Many greetings from Roel !
I have a cincinnati dividing head with all the plates but if I needed one for occasional use I think I would print one on my 3d printer. It would nt hold up too well but for a home shop would probably be fine. Even if the holes were off a few thousandths , most dividing heads are 40:1 so they make divisions 40 times more accurate than the plate itself.
Faster method- stack all 6 discs together and tack weld them together in 3 places around the OD. Set the stack on the mill and drill and bore the center hole to size, then drill your 3 bolt pattern. Make a stepped arbor with one OD big enough to drill and tap the 3 holes to match the 3 holes in the plates and a smaller OD to match the bore. Now bolt the whole stack to the arbor centered on the smaller OD and chuck the larger OD in the lathe. Turn the entire stack to the proper OD and that will cut away your tack welds. Now you have 6 plates bored, drilled and turned to the right size. Now use a spider to space your plates out beyond the chuck jaws and face each side.
Had you considered making three double-sided plates instead of the six separate ones? Pete Lyle's videos on indexing plates brought this to my mind! Really enjoy your videos!!
Hi Keith, Glue chucking is common in wood turning, and they include a sheet of paper between workpiece and chuck, which is the weak point. Could you do the same with metal? You could also use something like thin cork, which is an excellent material for things like a clutch, mount that to the chuck piece then apply pressure. CNC certainly is the way to go for drilling the holes. Doing it by hand would be agonizing, and you can guarantee if you made a mistake it would be close to the finish. ☹
+TheNorthkiters Yup, me too. clickspring was the one showing a superglue arbor the first time for me. Interesting to see it works with this size of material as well.
I think that the k&t was the one, I've done Brown and Sharp and Cincinnati also, that had precision spindle bearings which come in matched pairs 2 in a box.unfortunately they were two different sizes so I had an odd pair left over.
+782sirbrian Most of my glue chuck experience has also been on the wood lathe but I have also used it on the metal lathe in the past. It is a handy way to hold difficult parts to!
Interesting project. I was wondering though if it wouldn't have been better to put in the three screw holes into the dividing plate before turning them down to size. That way you could avoid the glue and just screw them onto the jig. On the first pass you'd just cut the screw heads down to thickness along with the plate.
+Wobblycogs Workshop I really wanted the drill the mounting holes and the index holes in the same setup, but what you describe could have also been used.
You had to take a lot off the OD. I would have layed the original plate on the blank and drawn a line arround it and then used the metal bandsaw to get the most off. But it does not matter if time is not a option. You got the job done in in a nice way. Thanks for the video..
+Rob Gerrits Yes, bandsawing would have saved some time. My problem was the blade I have on my metal cutting band saw is too wide to make that tight of a diameter. I need to order a thinner blade for jobs like this but I did not have it on hand and did not want to wait for one to be shipped. Making do with what I had!
I understand why you took slow cuts so not to heat it up, curious as I would have tried one thing different so would there have been a good reason not to do it "my way"?? If I was turning an 8" disk into a 6" disk I would have taken small cuts on the face (at a just over 6") then had an 8" washer with a 6" hole in the center for use with another project... I realize like you say thier are many ways to do the same project, I just wnat to know if there was a good reason not to do it my way...???
Another good job Keith, if a little tedious. I'll bet there is a complete set on that well-known auction site for a Dollar by the time you get them back, but that's always the way.
+Gordon McMillan; Save your money, having searched many times on that most exasperating of auction sites, ( Greedy Bay ) there really are NO used sets and rarely do you find even one or two plates to fit a specific make Div Hd, If and when they do appear people want $25.00 @ and UP for them, easily many times their true worth .
+Gordon McMillan I have been watching eBay pretty much ever since I got that dividing head hoping that a plate or two would show up at a decent price. While there have been many dividing head plates for sale, I have not seen one that is right for my K&T Model H dividing head. You are probably right about some showing up cheap right after I make a set, but I have run out of time to wait it out and will just make a complete set and be done with it.
Why not start by drilling the centre hole smaller than required then mount plate on an arbor using a bolt and washer (washer still smaller diameter than required hole). Face off the front and turn the outside diameter. Flip the piece and mount in 3-jaw chuck on outside diameter before finally facing off the reverse to correct thickness and finally boring the hole to size.
+John Vickers Lots of ways to skin this cat but the biggest issue is being to face the opposite side without cutting into anything that is used to mount the piece with.
+Keith Rucker This isn't an issue with this method. I can't remember the dimension but, say the final hole diameter required is 1.75", the arbor mounting hole could be 1.25" and the mounting washer 1.5". You can then machine all of the face to the OD of the washer. The unmachined boss will the be lost when it is eventually bored out to 1.75".
The guy who sold me the divider unit also put in something like thirty plates he made. Sort of makes me wonder why there aren't more people who make their own instead of buying, perhaps the complexity of the job in respect to the precision is keeping people out?? Either way, really cool project, goes in the fave directory. :)
I just ran to the lathe and did a surface cut with the boring bar, i don't know if it's the mass of the whole assebly (holder plus bar)or just something about the particular setup of a boring bar, but the cut is very smooth. That's a neat trick there.
Bet that 1 1/2" drill got hot at the end of the cut! Ahh yes - immediately thought of "Clickspring" regarding the glue chuck - something I really must try. Great project Keith -- some pretty critical drilling needed after you got disks to size - if not a pretty slow job done by hand. Ahh - CNC - now there's the way to go :)
+ChrisB257 The drill was not hot when it was all done. Slow down the RPM's and take a lighter cut and it is not all that bad. I actually got the first two plates drilled out on the CNC mill today. I was not there when he cut them, but he told me the first plate took about 20 min to drill and the second about 7 min (the second one had less holes than the first). He will do the other plates for me in a few weeks but I got the main two that I needed right away!
Tack weld the six plates together in three places, chuck them up together and drill and bore all at once. Put them on an arbor and turn all of the od's together.
+Bison Workshop There are some people out there that just don't like me and give me a thumbs down on everything that I do - they probably don't even watch the video. Who knows why, it is just the way it is. I stopped loosing sleep over it a long time ago.
i cant hardly believe i dont have a thumbs down by now. i havent got even one yet. people hate me because i dont take their crap and in most cases because the are jealus of me
Keith, I wonder would it be faster if you had left a slight extra thickness on the disk to turn it clean instead of all the cleanup that you had to do later?
Instead of using a CNC, most mills with a dro have the bolt circle program. very quick. If no DRO, you can just use the manual bolt circle method with mill dials. Much slower than the DRO, likely takes as much time as a RT. Of do away with the plates entirely, and mount a stepper motor, drive etc. and make it Digital. As I did.
Wow! As a total non-machinist, I saw almost every step of this process a different way, going something like: smaller central hole, custom arbor, massive o.d. reduction using something like a parting tool, precision o.d., face side 1, flip, face side 2, remove arbor and rechuck outside, bore center hold to precision dimension. You don't need to tell me how many ways this is wrong - it's just what I thought in my head. My real questions is, did you consider remaking plate 2 while you were at it? The more I watch, the more I envy you your patience.
+Don Halley Don, there is no doubt that this problem in machining could have been tacked many different ways and as long as the end results were the same it really does not matter how you got there.
+Don Halley There's nothing wrong with your choice of the order of operations - especially when working with stock that is too large to fit in a chuck. I had to make some thin disks some few years back, which fortunately did not need to be faced off. I started with square blanks of sheet, drilled center holes, bolted up the stack, and then chucked on the bolt to turn down a defined OD. You will find that there often is no need to be too particular about the order of operations in machining, and anyway, you will want to work with what you have in the way of tools due to cost and/or schedule. So long as you think your process through, and work carefully, you most likely will get what you want in the end. Afterwards, you can do the review and see if things could have gone better... for some jobs, that is critical, for others it is a matter of: "Well, I *could* gone at that from the other direction, but I wouldn't gain anything in the end..." Solving these puzzles is more than half of the fun of machining! Regards, Eric
+Peter W. Meek I actually did consider that but did not want to have to grind the cutter out of HSS. If I had a few more to do, I think it would have been worth the extra effort.
I have a 20+ pound miscellany of ground HSS bits (most on both ends) that I have aquired over the years. I can always find one that is close to what I need at the moment. It's a matter of a minute or two to modify something to fit the current project. I filmed sorting the collection out by size. I'll include it in some future Erratic Gallimaufry.
@@VintageMachinery Surely grinding one trepanning bit would take less time than machining down the radius of even one of those discs, much less six of them... Well, it's your time I guess.
I would have just flipped the part after doing the first facing to face the other side then drilled and tapped the center of the aluminium and clamped it with a thick washer and bolt to turn the outside diameter.
+Damo Floyd Not quite that easy. Because I could not face all the way to the edge of the part without getting into the jaws of my chuck, you could not flip the part around and have the machined face up against the back of the chuck.
+Robert Kutz I have used tons of CA in wood turning as well. But it can be used with metal as long as you are careful not to take too big of a cut or build up too much heat. It has limitations but is a nice trick to use for some jobs.
I did it years ago without a DRO, CAD or spreadsheet in machinists school and you said you let your buddy do it on his CNC. I was just a little peeved that you implied you were going to show people how to DIY then sent it out. No hard feelings. I was peeved back then when the instructor was teaching how to use a dividing head and he said we could throw away the remainder and when I questioned him he said the error would never be enough to surpass a clearance hole. Then on the exam he gave us an example with something like 1999 holes. I worked it out both ways and they were about three holes off. Never got any extra marks. Some teachers don't appreciate being shown up, even in private.
+NGinuity I have to give Clickspring some credit for this for sure, but I have used glue chucks many times before I saw him doing it. The Clickspring channel is a very good channel though for good - he has lots of good ideas and some great video work!
Thanks for the video Keith. Recently I made a set of plates to convert my rotary table into a dividing head. I borrowed a conversion kit from a friend & copied it all. Only three plates but still the best part of 600 holes to drill! very tedious but also satisfying project. Cleaning up all those 2.6mm holes was the worst part. Any chance of a video of the cnc job.
+Ron Cartwright Pretty good chance you will see a video of the CNC work - either on my channel or on Mike Wiggins TH-cam channel (The Back Yard Machine Shop). Although, he is using the CNC mill where he works rather than the manual machines in his back yard....
Really nice, thanks. I'm sure there's a good reason behind this - but why is trepanning not used more? Is it just that it's hard to get the right support geometry for the cutter?
+Allan Stirling have to admit that I have never really used any trepanning cutters. Mainly because most of my work is for one-off parts and it is hard to justify a dedicated cutter for a particular diameter for just a few pieces. For production work, I think it would be a great option but it usually just does make sense to buy or make a dedicated cutter like that for just a few pieces.
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Thanks for the explanation, it's about what I had assumed. Getting the job done is way more important than increasing your collection of "one off" tools to sift through.
well Keith I understand the CNC thing but I would like to see you do one of them the old fashion way for those of us people that don't have access to CNC
Eastman 910 I think was the number. A company that I was working for was drive pinning nameplates 2 drops of glue replaced 4 drilled holes and 4 drive pins. btw have you been inside of the k&t dividing head, I rebuilt one years ago.
+Richard Haisley No, I have not been inside the dividing head. I stopped taking apart things that were working fine many years ago! Should I ever need to go in there, will be looking up this comment again...
Hi Keith, I've been watching your video for about a year and I really appreciate them and the work you put into them. I was wondering if you could do an addendum video where you push the glue chuck to its breaking point to see how much force you can actually apply to it?
+Michael Jurisic That would be interesting. I will see if I can work something like that in at some point - play around with some different cut depths and see where it breaks.
I would have tack welded the six disks together then mounted them in the four jaw chuck and bored the id. Then drilled the the three holes mounting holes. I would have then separated them and face one face of each disk. I would then counter bore the holes from the rough side to the correct depth (measuring from the finished face). I would have then made an arbor to use to turn the OD and face off to the correct thickness. The screws would be also faced but you would then use the same screws to face off the other five.
I'm in the same situation with my dividing head and was really hoping you'd show how to drill the holes. I plan on using the dividing head to make its own plates. I wrote a program to generate a pdf template that I can transfer the holes to some 1/4" ply by hand using the drill press. Then I'll use the wood plate to transfer the holes to the metal plate. I figure with a 40:1 reduction the final plate will be close enough even if the wood template is off a bit. It should be ~1:1600 error on the final part.
+aallwwkk I do exactly what you plan to do, except no plywood involved. I wrote a program (in PostScript) to generate a full-size template. I glue that to the blank with contact cement. I use an optical center punch to center-punch the holes. Then step-drill to final size. It is very tedious to centerpunch all the holes, but the optical centerpunch is very accurate. Since I built my own dividing head with an oddball worm ratio there is no way I can use commercial plates. So far it has worked.
+aallwwkk As long as you can keep holes on the circle very accurately, I think that what you describe will work fine. When I made that plate many years ago, we used a rotary table to make sure we were always on the same circle, but I agree that a tiny error in the angle of any particular hole will not matter - as long as you error is not multiplied from one hole to another.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org thanks for the reply. how accurate do you think it need to be? say the holes were off 0.015". with a 1:40 ratio the final plate would be off 0.0004" and then the final transfer to the work from the plate would be off 0.00001". even if the hole was off .25" that's only 0.006" on the final plate and 0.0002" on the work. seems like you could just get in the general area is have it work unless I'm missing something?
Sigh. There are several ways to make dividing plates without CNC.or a DRO. One way is to use a broken bandsaw blade, which you wrap around a wooden circle sized to acommodate the number of teeth you need. Another way is to get CAD to make you a full-size template. Centerpunch and drill. It is nice to know that any error you make will be reduced by the worm ratio, So a 0.1 mm error will actually be (for a 40:1 worm) a .0025 mm error -- neglibile.
I've seen these techniques thanks to Clickspring as well. What I didn't understand is why you shaved the edge of the plate instead of dividing the outer edge off with a slow plunge cut into the face. You could have then cleaned the edge up as normal. Just wondering...maybe you were worried that the amount of force on the face plate would break the glue free? Not sure...just wondering. I bet that could have saved you a ton of time.
+WreckDiver99 The problem with a trepanning cut is that you really need to have a cutter for the specific diameter you are cutting. I could have hand ground one out of HSS, which would have taken about as long as it took me to just turn them down or I could have spent a bunch of money on a tool that I would have likely never used again. If this had been a production job of many, many parts, it would make more sense. And it was a good opportunity to show off the "glue chuck"!
Maybe I'm not clear on my terminology....why not take a dividing tool and plunge it into the face approximately 100 thousanths away from final OD and part an outer ring off. Wouldn't that have saved multiple edge passes, and therefore quite a bit of time? After that first trim you could have then done 2 or 3 final trims to get to your final OD. I'm not sure of the terminology as I have never operated a lathe and am trying to learn. I've seen ClickSpring do exactly what I'm attempting to describe here (and apparently failing miserably). LOL.
hi kieth I'm a new hobby machinist and I'm doing some gear cutting with my 40:1 dividing head on my mill. but I don't have all the plates to compleat a set so I would like to make the ones I don't have. I understand what you said about dividing the number of holes you want into 360 and using the rotary table no problem there but what I don't get is how do I dertermine what the pin hole diameter is for each ring of holes having 5 or 6 rings of holes on a plate? some heads up on this would be great kieth. keep the vids coming kieth really enjoy your channel.
Could you not have used a center compression chuck? Kinda like a Dremel tool where you put the disk in the chuck and tighten the bolt in the center to compress the center to fit the hole in your disk.
Today, I have one Model H Dividing Head with 5 disk. I want to know if it is possible to make a gear wifh 127 teeth. For me it's possible because I can make a 120 divisions. But with the additionnal crank I think it's possible to make 127 but do you have a process for that
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now. That IS clever. A glue chuck, who woulda' thought. When I change to my alternate identity as a wood woodworker, I have used the glue technique for years: the workpiece, a piece of brown paper then a plate for screws to hold all to the faceplate of the lathe. A sharp knife splits the finished work from the holding plate and some sandpaper to clean it up. Never thought of it for metal work. Kurt, you are the expert. keep teaching the rest of us...
In the factory, we had a 30 ton press that would walk away from the assembly line from vibration. We glued it to the floor with super glue. 5 years later when we moved it, parts of the floor came up where we glued the foot.
Great technic Keith. Thanks for showing us how to do that. CA glue is a great product, I use it all the time in my shop, but I've never used it to hold a metal part in the lathe. I'm a luthier and and there are countless tricks you can use it for on instrument repairs, every thing from joining parts together to finish and binding repairs also, you can mix it with baking soda and it makes a solid hard plastic like material, comes in handy for repairing worn out bridge pin holes in a bridgeplate. Good video
+Chuck Tipton I do a good bit of wood turning and CA glue is used for so many things over there. But it also has its uses in metal work!
I am learning a lot from your videos. I had a hard time hearing you in the beginning but a friend told me how to add a graphic eq to my chrome browser so Now I can filter out much of the noise from the milling and concentrate on your narration. I don't have any machining tools but I have wood working tools and What I want to do is use machining methods to make prototypes of parts I want to be machined without the expensive metals. I hope that watching your videos and others will make me understand the processes better without having to buy the expensive tools. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
As an EE with enormous respect for craftsmen, I find this description of making dividing plates fascinating. I wouldn't know where to start.
Thanks Keith,
I enjoyed watching this video and seeing the way you were able to get this project underway.
+Ed Texley Thanks Ed, it was my take on how to do it. One could have gone about this project in a million different ways and had the same end results.
"Free material, even better". That's not being 'cheap' Keith, that's being frugal.
I remember my Grandad saying; "Look after the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves".
Really enjoyed this video of a "glue chuck"! Cheers.
Keith, I really like the glue chuck method.Very creative. I plan to use that in the future.Thank you for your time in making of the videos. Brian
+Brian Hostak Thanks for taking the time to watch Brian!
I watched the whole thing to find out how you did the holes, only to find out you gave it to a CNC?.. DAMN YOU!!
I have never used the glue chuck on the metal lathe before. I have used it many times on the wood lathe. When I was in high school taking wood shop my shop teacher taught it to me. We always glued the blank to the wood waste stock with wood glue and several layers of paper. The paper made for a very nice parting point that could easily be split off with a wood chisel. Then you only needed to do a little sanding on the bottom of the bowl to remove the remaining paper and glue. CA glue works great for filling cracks and voids when wood working. I have used it for years. Definitely going to keep this trick in the back of my mind for future reference.
Thanks!
Mike
+Junk Mikes World Like you, I have used the glue chuck many times for wood turning, but also a few times before for metal work.
@@VintageMachinery Turning and milling metals and plastics. I don't do woodwor really,, but the glue chuck works great for some things, just have to keel tool pressure low.
The glue chuck worked very well. It is good you have a friend with a CNC machine to get the rest done. Great video as usual. Thanks for shariing.
+Amateur Redneck Workshop Thanks - it is nice to have friends who will help me out for sure. If I were drilling these by hand, I would probably only make the two main plates that I need rather than the whole set.
I've used glue chucks on the wood lathe for years (hot glue usually) but never though of using it on metal. Another tool in the armoury! Thanks Keith
+Peter Fletcher I too first use a glue chuck on the wood lathe. It is amazing how many tricks you can use on both types of machines!
The “Glue Chuck” was awesome. Great Job.
Keith,
I have no idea how you manage to produce one or two professional quality videos per week, but I am glad you do.
Thanks.
+Ian Butler It is not always easy, particularly when I am really busy with my "real job" or on the road for several weeks in a row. Fortunately, I was able to get several videos shot and edited over my Christmas break that I will be releasing over the next few weeks as I am getting back into a pretty busy season at work.....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org %
Excellent video. I have also made indexing plates but in quite a different way. I needed some gears for a lathe so I used the original gears that would eventually wear out, made a device to indicate each tooth, punched the locations required on my blank then drilled them out. It was very time consuming to make the plate but it worked out beautifully. I like the glue chuck method, that will come in handy in the future. Thank you very much for the video. Being an old machinist I appreciate your work. Thumbs up. Take care.
That works!
I started watching last night and wouldn't you know it... I took a computer nap. Finished up this morning and was amazed at the glue chuck! Great idea but be sure you don't get it between your fingers; "You'll shoot your eye out!" Greg
+Charles Compton I keep some solvent for CA glue in the shop because I have had my fingers stuck together more than once!
Wonderful job, really a joy to watch you work Keith. 👍👍😀
Keith, I like this new trick, the presser plate great stuff! I learn something new every time, thanks again great job!
Jeez man, I wanted to see the vintage method of drilling a dividing plate, so I sat through all that prep machining only for you to mail them off for CNC? That’s a half hour I’ll never get back!
I was fifteen minutes in , thanks for telling me . I owe you fifteen minutes .
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@Jude Reece Instablaster =)
@Adonis Trevor thanks for your reply. I found the site through google and Im in the hacking process atm.
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Thank you so much you saved my ass!
Didn't make dividing plates, but some very large spacer "washers". I tack welded the 4 together on the rims, bored the centre hole to size after drilling, then drilled the other 4 holes through everything. Put the stack back on the lathe with an arbor through the centre of the stack and machined the outer diameter taking the weld tacks off at the same time. Then used the arbor to face them off to the dia of the arbor. Finally held them by the outer dia in the chuck and faced off what was left of the boss. Funny how you can remember some jobs from 40 years ago, but can't remember what you had for breakfast.
Hi Keith, as usually i enjoyed your movie on an early weekend morning with a good and large cup of coffee. I will defiantly get me some super glue for my little home workshop. You have once again expanded my view on a new tool and on its endless uses :-) Thanks again and keep the movies coming. All the best from snowy Denmark, Jan
+Jan K Jensen Thanks Jan - glad to share some new tricks with you guys!
Nice video, always interesting to see extra tooling made, certainly makes a nicer video than just buying it, thanks Keith, and nice to see you again!
+jusb1066 Thanks. It would be nice to just buy some but they are pretty hard to find and probably pretty expensive if you do find them. One of the nice things about having a machine shop is you can make things like this!
Very nice presentation. I have considered making my own indexing plates. One of the things that worries me is the stress that may or may not be present in the original steel blanks. I've had too many pieces of steel warp when I turned them down to make them thinner. Have resigned myself to always annealing strange pieces of steel in a heat treating furnace before attempting to make a seriously precise tool. Cold rolled is in special need of annealing.
You could've speeded up the turning to diameter, by making a shouldered arbor, with a washer and locking nut (and mounting the plates two at a time, un-machined faces together), which would've allowed you to take far heavier cuts, and reserved the glue chuck for the facing.
A good project that a lot of people have a need for (including me for by B&S). The larger quantity superglue bottles available from FastCap (sold at Rockler) is really nice to have around. The kit with the different types of glue, activators and de-bonder is the way to go.
+Jack Hoying When I was doing a lot of wood turning, I had lots of big bottles of CA glue in different types (thin, med and thick) as well as activator and de-bonder. With my shop having been more or less packed up the past four of five years, all of my CA glue had dried up, hence the stuff I bought at Lowes. I need to restock my CA glue assortment.....
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Yes, the glues definitely have a shelf life.
I would have gone ahead and put the 3 holes in and just mounted them on an arbor to do the turning and facing, especially with several to do. My Newall DRO has a bolt pattern function that would make putting the holes in the plates a pretty easy affair since all you have to do is provide a diameter and number of holes and it calculates all the positions for you. Doesn't the DRO on your Wells have a hole pattern function? Still easier to let the CNC do it but I bet you could do them pretty fast using the DRO too.
+bcbloc02 I considered doing the mounting holes, but the whole purpose of the glue chuck was to do the facing operation and not so much the outside diameter (which I was also using the center to apply pressure to everything making it also a friction chuck). If you mount the plate with bolts, you would have to face off the bolt heads to get the plate to the proper thickness.
Good job Keith.....one of those jobs that has 100 different ways to do it.....the biggest help would have been to use Kilroy's Val-Cut trepanning tool. I have had one on my list for some time, but cannot find anyone to mis-name it on Ebay so that I can afford it! I did find a 10" mag chuck which would have worked good! In the end.....all the same result!
+Jim Liechty Yeah, everybody keeps asking me why I did not use a terpanning tool. Because I don't have one and this little job would not justify buying one! As you say, in the end, it does not really matter how you skin the cat as long as you skin the cat....
I use hot melt glue for this work. But for thin plate I've used double sided adhesive tape and it worked perfectly.
+Joss Fitzsimons I have not had as much success with hot glue - super glue is much stronger. I have use double stick tape with success. You can also use loctite instead of super glue - it too is reversible with heat.
..Glue chuck...Excellent...CNC for the holes....Excellent....nice to see you don't always do things the 'hard way'......
I like to work as easy as I can....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org...Right....CNC is great...you have a lot of stuff going on, not a lot of time....but nice to know you could make the plates the old=school way if you had to....
Keith,
I learned another trick from watching your video . . . the glue chuck. That's a clever and very functional idea. As always, thanks so much for sharing your work and explaining what's going on. I'm not one for CNC, but in this case, I think you are spot on by removing the "human element" from the equation. Hopefully, there won't be much problem programming the CNC machine. Never have worked with a CNC, I have no idea what is involved in programming one. Good luck with the finished plates! Thanks again!
Have a good one!
Dave
+Swarf Rat I am no expert when it comes to CNC but basically my friend drew up the different hole patterns in AutoCad and was able to convert the drawing to a program to use on the mill. That is probably over simplified but I don't think that it took much effort.
The glue chuck trick is great! Thanks for sharing that.
+jjs4x My pleasure!
nice job keith. i have used the glue technique in the past with success but as you mentioned ,heat is your enemy and turning a disk that size without tailstock pressure would scare me. with so many disks to do i think i would have made a mandrel that would have allowed me to bolt the disks. that would allow for much more aggressive turning and also serve to hold the disks on a rotary table or cnc mill. its good to have friends with cnc equipment.
+larry sperling I was using tail stock pressure for the diameter cutting, the only part I relied on the glue chuck was the facing operation, which really would be difficult to do with bolts holding it in place.
Since you (and I) like old-time stuff, it might interest you to know that old-time clock/watchmakers used glue chucks. They used shellac instead of superglue (not yet invented), works exactly like superglue but not as strong. I think using coolant was a very good idea. Thing to remember is that it is not instantaneous except maybe on a hot day. I allow 20 minutes to set.
+Juan Rivero Yes, clock makers have used the technique for centuries and machinist in general have used it for all kinds of jobs as well for many years. A lot of people use Titeloc instead of Superglue.
That was awesome i seen Tom use double sided tap once. but Super glue.. i would never of though it would work. cool tip i hope to try it one day. Thanks for sharing.
+one4stevo I like Superglue better than double stick tape as the tape tends to be a bit thick and has come cushion to it. I think you get more accurate results from glue as you have a more solid connection. You can also use Loctite.
Thanks Keith, I learned something here. Glad your filmed this.
+Skeeter Holeman And I am glad that you took the time to watch and comment. Thank you!
Nice job Keith! I have used a boring bar with a slitting bit I ground to cut large disks like that so I would not have to cut so much down on the diameter.
+John McRae I gave something like that serious consideration but I did not have the right cutter to do it and just really did not want to grind a special HSS tool just for six parts. Maybe a bit lazy on my part but I think I got it done faster. The ones I did off camera went a lot faster because I played with the speed of the lathe and really sped things up.
Your way might be better anyway with the glue chuck. Keep up the good work, looking forward to the finishing touches on the foundry furnace
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Nice job Keith, fun to watch man.
Never seen a "glue chuck" on this size but worked out fine.
I hope that you will show us the finished product, with maybe some photos during the CNC operations in progress.
+Jan Visser Stay tuned....
Whew! A lot of work, but well worth it. I have a use for the "glue chuck" in mind. Thank you.
+Roy Lucas No problem. You can also use Loctite, it is also reversible with heat.
I really wanted to see how you drilled all the holes. I was pretty disappointed that you just sent it out to have it done. The glue chuck was something I haven’t seen before though so I still gave you a thumbs up.
This should be a very interesting series, thank's Keith
+Phil's Projects Thanks Phil!
Good show Keith, your right that's a lot of holes to dial in and drill. Thanks for the video
+Tom Bellus Got the first two plates back this weekend - they look great! More on that in a future video....
Thanks for the video. I guess there are many ways that you could have done the job but your method was novel. Part of the reason that I watch your videos is to learn different ways to work and you certainly achieve that
+John Linquist Thanks - there is nearly always more than one way to attack a problem. I like to watch other machinist to see how they go about solving things - and I usually pick up a few tips along the way!
another excellent video Keith, a few more very handy little tricks to make those difficult machining jobs that bit easier .
Chris at Clickspring makes some incredible stuff , his attention to detail is amazing .
+Lynton Rodda I highly recommend the Clickspring channel. If nothing else, his camera work is amazing!
I'm older than dirt and I have never seen that done before darned clever. btw Eastman Kodak invented super glue and there was originally no solvent caused a lot of trips to the emergency room, now they use it to glue cuts back together.
+Richard Haisley I did not know the Kodak connection. I did know about the ER usage - my daughter had a cut glued back together when she was a young child.
that method worked very well Keith .. Thumbs up man !
+ShawnMrFixit Thanks Shawn - nothing earth shattering, glue chucks are used more than people might think, but you don't see them talked about much.
Hi,thanks for this and all the other great videos.Chris (clickspring) can´t do that, when he works on brass, but working on thin steel plates, a magnetic chuck is also a possible way to hold those parts.
+Udo Willkomm A magnetic chuck would be an awesome thing to have. Unfortunately, I don't! But, it would be another way of getting this work holding done.
Hi Keith
Nice job and a little tricky setup, I think ... if the "top" of your jaws is running true you could just open the jaws to a little under the size of the finished diameter and use dobble sided tape to hold the blank to the jaws and just use a center punch and a live center to press the blank against the jaws - I've used this method severel times - a little fasster and just as safe, I think.
+Keld Sørensen I use a "friction chuck" all the time. I think that what you are describing could have also gotten the job done. It just was not the order of steps I really wanted to do things in.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org
I think it could have been much faster - but we all have our favorites - long to see how you "divide" the holes - teach us ;-))
Hello Keith,
Again an interesting video and that trick with the glue chuck and see how strong that superglue can be. When I restored the hallway here in my house I used also a kind of superglue in stead of nails. We call it montagekit from Bison and is also a sort of superglue for different materials.
Anyway, I curious to see the final 6 plates but I agree that it is to time consuming to make those holes all by hand. So a good choice to let them make by that friend with the CNC machine.
Many greetings from Roel !
+RoelTyros Thanks - I got two of the plates back today and they look great. I will try and show them in an upcoming video....
I do enjoy your videos. also lean something new every time.
Thanks
+kc8bdr Thank you!
I have a cincinnati dividing head with all the plates but if I needed one for occasional use I think I would print one on my 3d printer. It would nt hold up too well but for a home shop would probably be fine. Even if the holes were off a few thousandths , most dividing heads are 40:1 so they make divisions 40 times more accurate than the plate itself.
Wow great video Keith. Learned a lot!
+MattsMotorz Thanks!
Faster method- stack all 6 discs together and tack weld them together in 3 places around the OD. Set the stack on the mill and drill and bore the center hole to size, then drill your 3 bolt pattern. Make a stepped arbor with one OD big enough to drill and tap the 3 holes to match the 3 holes in the plates and a smaller OD to match the bore. Now bolt the whole stack to the arbor centered on the smaller OD and chuck the larger OD in the lathe. Turn the entire stack to the proper OD and that will cut away your tack welds. Now you have 6 plates bored, drilled and turned to the right size. Now use a spider to space your plates out beyond the chuck jaws and face each side.
Had you considered making three double-sided plates instead of the six separate ones? Pete Lyle's videos on indexing plates brought this to my mind! Really enjoy your videos!!
What a neat trick, thank you for sharing it. I well have to remember that one, ( GLUE CHUCK ).
+Great North Woods Hillbilly It is a good trick to have up your sleeve!
Hi Keith,
Glue chucking is common in wood turning, and they include a sheet of paper between workpiece and chuck, which is the weak point. Could you do the same with metal?
You could also use something like thin cork, which is an excellent material for things like a clutch, mount that to the chuck piece then apply pressure.
CNC certainly is the way to go for drilling the holes. Doing it by hand would be agonizing, and you can guarantee if you made a mistake it would be close to the finish. ☹
fun to see more people use the superglue arbor. Seems to be used quite a lot, I also saw it on clickspring..
+TheNorthkiters Superglue is a wonderful thing!
+TheNorthkiters Yup, me too. clickspring was the one showing a superglue arbor the first time for me. Interesting to see it works with this size of material as well.
G'day Keith very good job, using the old grey matter helps, I learnt a lot form the vid thank you John
+John Kinnane Thanks!
Enjoyed...very good discussion/instruction...
+outsidescrewball Thanks Chuck - glad to have you along for the ride!
I think that the k&t was the one, I've done Brown and Sharp and Cincinnati also, that had precision spindle bearings which come in matched pairs 2 in a box.unfortunately they were two different sizes so I had an odd pair left over.
Interesting Keith, I use a glue chuck on my wood lathe often. I enjoy watching your videos thanks for sharing.
Regards Brian
+782sirbrian Most of my glue chuck experience has also been on the wood lathe but I have also used it on the metal lathe in the past. It is a handy way to hold difficult parts to!
Interesting project. I was wondering though if it wouldn't have been better to put in the three screw holes into the dividing plate before turning them down to size. That way you could avoid the glue and just screw them onto the jig. On the first pass you'd just cut the screw heads down to thickness along with the plate.
+Wobblycogs Workshop I really wanted the drill the mounting holes and the index holes in the same setup, but what you describe could have also been used.
Keith nice video , waiting to see the dividing head job.
+Mike Nixon Coming soon - just need some time in the shop...
You had to take a lot off the OD. I would have layed the original plate on the blank and drawn a line arround it and then used the metal bandsaw to get the most off. But it does not matter if time is not a option. You got the job done in in a nice way.
Thanks for the video..
+Rob Gerrits Yes, bandsawing would have saved some time. My problem was the blade I have on my metal cutting band saw is too wide to make that tight of a diameter. I need to order a thinner blade for jobs like this but I did not have it on hand and did not want to wait for one to be shipped. Making do with what I had!
Keith, in the next video, can you show us the set up and the math for the rotary table please? Always learn from your videos! Thanks
+JC S Lots of people are asking for something like that so I will see if I can at least discuss it in an upcoming video.
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org thank you!
I understand why you took slow cuts so not to heat it up, curious as I would have tried one thing different so would there have been a good reason not to do it "my way"?? If I was turning an 8" disk into a 6" disk I would have taken small cuts on the face (at a just over 6") then had an 8" washer with a 6" hole in the center for use with another project... I realize like you say thier are many ways to do the same project, I just wnat to know if there was a good reason not to do it my way...???
great video thanks for teaching an old dog a new trick
+Jerry Schram Very Handy for sure!
Another good job Keith, if a little tedious.
I'll bet there is a complete set on that well-known auction site for a Dollar by the time you get them back, but that's always the way.
+Gordon McMillan; Save your money, having searched many times on that most exasperating of auction sites, ( Greedy Bay ) there really are NO used sets and rarely do you find even one or two plates to fit a specific make Div Hd, If and when they do appear people want $25.00 @ and UP for them, easily many times their true worth .
+Gordon McMillan I have been watching eBay pretty much ever since I got that dividing head hoping that a plate or two would show up at a decent price. While there have been many dividing head plates for sale, I have not seen one that is right for my K&T Model H dividing head. You are probably right about some showing up cheap right after I make a set, but I have run out of time to wait it out and will just make a complete set and be done with it.
Why not start by drilling the centre hole smaller than required then mount plate on an arbor using a bolt and washer (washer still smaller diameter than required hole). Face off the front and turn the outside diameter. Flip the piece and mount in 3-jaw chuck on outside diameter before finally facing off the reverse to correct thickness and finally boring the hole to size.
+John Vickers Lots of ways to skin this cat but the biggest issue is being to face the opposite side without cutting into anything that is used to mount the piece with.
+Keith Rucker This isn't an issue with this method. I can't remember the dimension but, say the final hole diameter required is 1.75", the arbor mounting hole could be 1.25" and the mounting washer 1.5". You can then machine all of the face to the OD of the washer. The unmachined boss will the be lost when it is eventually bored out to 1.75".
The guy who sold me the divider unit also put in something like thirty plates he made. Sort of makes me wonder why there aren't more people who make their own instead of buying, perhaps the complexity of the job in respect to the precision is keeping people out??
Either way, really cool project, goes in the fave directory. :)
I just ran to the lathe and did a surface cut with the boring bar, i don't know if it's the mass of the whole assebly (holder plus bar)or just something about the particular setup of a boring bar, but the cut is very smooth. That's a neat trick there.
+aserta Thanks - I wonder why he needed so many plates. Was this for direct indexing rather than compound indexing?
Bet that 1 1/2" drill got hot at the end of the cut!
Ahh yes - immediately thought of "Clickspring" regarding the glue chuck - something I really must try.
Great project Keith -- some pretty critical drilling needed after you got disks to size - if not a pretty slow job done by hand.
Ahh - CNC - now there's the way to go :)
+ChrisB257 The drill was not hot when it was all done. Slow down the RPM's and take a lighter cut and it is not all that bad. I actually got the first two plates drilled out on the CNC mill today. I was not there when he cut them, but he told me the first plate took about 20 min to drill and the second about 7 min (the second one had less holes than the first). He will do the other plates for me in a few weeks but I got the main two that I needed right away!
👍 well done Kieth
Tack weld the six plates together in three places, chuck them up together and drill and bore all at once. Put them on an arbor and turn all of the od's together.
+Richard Haisley That would work!
good job keith. i had considered making a bunch of these also but got too lazy lol. i just bought a plate kit for the dividing head i built.
+Bison Workshop i would give just about anything just to know the thinking or reasoning behind the 10 thumbs down.
+Bison Workshop i just noticed i hadnt subscribed to you. i have you in my other channel and i must have missed you on this channel
+Bison Workshop There are some people out there that just don't like me and give me a thumbs down on everything that I do - they probably don't even watch the video. Who knows why, it is just the way it is. I stopped loosing sleep over it a long time ago.
i cant hardly believe i dont have a thumbs down by now. i havent got even one yet. people hate me because i dont take their crap and in most cases because the are jealus of me
Acetone is good for removing CA glue residue.
Keith, I wonder would it be faster if you had left a slight extra thickness on the disk to turn it clean instead of all the cleanup that you had to do later?
Instead of using a CNC, most mills with a dro have the bolt circle program. very quick. If no DRO, you can just use the manual bolt circle method with mill dials. Much slower than the DRO, likely takes as much time as a RT.
Of do away with the plates entirely, and mount a stepper motor, drive etc. and make it Digital. As I did.
Wow! As a total non-machinist, I saw almost every step of this process a different way, going something like: smaller central hole, custom arbor, massive o.d. reduction using something like a parting tool, precision o.d., face side 1, flip, face side 2, remove arbor and rechuck outside, bore center hold to precision dimension. You don't need to tell me how many ways this is wrong - it's just what I thought in my head. My real questions is, did you consider remaking plate 2 while you were at it? The more I watch, the more I envy you your patience.
+Don Halley Don, there is no doubt that this problem in machining could have been tacked many different ways and as long as the end results were the same it really does not matter how you got there.
+Don Halley There's nothing wrong with your choice of the order of operations - especially when working with stock that is too large to fit in a chuck.
I had to make some thin disks some few years back, which fortunately did not need to be faced off.
I started with square blanks of sheet, drilled center holes, bolted up the stack, and then chucked on the bolt to turn down a defined OD.
You will find that there often is no need to be too particular about the order of operations in machining, and anyway, you will want to work with what you have in the way of tools due to cost and/or schedule.
So long as you think your process through, and work carefully, you most likely will get what you want in the end.
Afterwards, you can do the review and see if things could have gone better... for some jobs, that is critical, for others it is a matter of: "Well, I *could* gone at that from the other direction, but I wouldn't gain anything in the end..."
Solving these puzzles is more than half of the fun of machining!
Regards,
Eric
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org
Put three machinists in a room with a project,
get seven ways to do it.😄
+NeoLASE At a minimum...
+NeoLASE At a minimum...
re glue chuck as a watch and clockmaker i use shalack instead of superglue as it melts at a lowish temp and will desolve in metholated spirots
Job well done Keith! As for heat isn't aluminum a great heat sucker? Your setup was the perfect heat sink for your part....
+Duncan “DunMac” Mac I should have mentioned that, but that was part of the reason why I used a big chuck of aluminum - as a heat sink!
This was great to see, as I recall asking some time ago if you had ever made one. :)
+John Strange Glad that you enjoyed!
Did you consider making a face-grooving tool bit? Who knows? A set of six rings might be useful in some future project.
+Peter W. Meek I actually did consider that but did not want to have to grind the cutter out of HSS. If I had a few more to do, I think it would have been worth the extra effort.
I have a 20+ pound miscellany of ground HSS bits (most on both ends) that I have aquired over the years. I can always find one that is close to what I need at the moment. It's a matter of a minute or two to modify something to fit the current project. I filmed sorting the collection out by size. I'll include it in some future Erratic Gallimaufry.
@@VintageMachinery Surely grinding one trepanning bit would take less time than machining down the radius of even one of those discs, much less six of them... Well, it's your time I guess.
I would have just flipped the part after doing the first facing to face the other side then drilled and tapped the center of the aluminium and clamped it with a thick washer and bolt to turn the outside diameter.
+Damo Floyd Not quite that easy. Because I could not face all the way to the edge of the part without getting into the jaws of my chuck, you could not flip the part around and have the machined face up against the back of the chuck.
keith i use ca. glue in woodturning never though it would work with metal,great tip. bob
+Robert Kutz I have used tons of CA in wood turning as well. But it can be used with metal as long as you are careful not to take too big of a cut or build up too much heat. It has limitations but is a nice trick to use for some jobs.
I would have liked to see the method for calculating the hole positions for a milling machine...
+GordieGii There are some web sites out there that will do the math for you. I have not used the because I have the DRO to do it for me!
I did it years ago without a DRO, CAD or spreadsheet in machinists school and you said you let your buddy do it on his CNC. I was just a little peeved that you implied you were going to show people how to DIY then sent it out. No hard feelings. I was peeved back then when the instructor was teaching how to use a dividing head and he said we could throw away the remainder and when I questioned him he said the error would never be enough to surpass a clearance hole. Then on the exam he gave us an example with something like 1999 holes. I worked it out both ways and they were about three holes off. Never got any extra marks. Some teachers don't appreciate being shown up, even in private.
I was wondering if the glue arbor was inspired by a Clickspring viewing. He's got some neat gear and methods.
+NGinuity I have to give Clickspring some credit for this for sure, but I have used glue chucks many times before I saw him doing it. The Clickspring channel is a very good channel though for good - he has lots of good ideas and some great video work!
Thanks for the video Keith. Recently I made a set of plates to convert my rotary table into a dividing head. I borrowed a conversion kit from a friend & copied it all. Only three plates but still the best part of 600 holes to drill! very tedious but also satisfying project. Cleaning up all those 2.6mm holes was the worst part. Any chance of a video of the cnc job.
+Ron Cartwright Pretty good chance you will see a video of the CNC work - either on my channel or on Mike Wiggins TH-cam channel (The Back Yard Machine Shop). Although, he is using the CNC mill where he works rather than the manual machines in his back yard....
Really nice, thanks. I'm sure there's a good reason behind this - but why is trepanning not used more? Is it just that it's hard to get the right support geometry for the cutter?
+Allan Stirling have to admit that I have never really used any trepanning cutters. Mainly because most of my work is for one-off parts and it is hard to justify a dedicated cutter for a particular diameter for just a few pieces. For production work, I think it would be a great option but it usually just does make sense to buy or make a dedicated cutter like that for just a few pieces.
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org Thanks for the explanation, it's about what I had assumed. Getting the job done is way more important than increasing your collection of "one off" tools to sift through.
+Allan Stirling Can't quite see how drilling a hole in Keiths skull would help but each to their own I guess ;)
well Keith I understand the CNC thing but I would like to see you do one of them the old fashion way for those of us people that don't have access to CNC
+Bill Nebergall I will keep that in mind should I have the opportunity to make one by hand one day.
I have done the Mr Pete version of making a dial
that's why I was interested in this
Myford uses glue a lot so when you said glue chuck i though along of what methods he used in previous videos.
Eastman 910 I think was the number. A company that I was working for was drive pinning nameplates 2 drops of glue replaced 4 drilled holes and 4 drive pins. btw have you been inside of the k&t dividing head, I rebuilt one years ago.
+Richard Haisley No, I have not been inside the dividing head. I stopped taking apart things that were working fine many years ago! Should I ever need to go in there, will be looking up this comment again...
Hi Keith, I've been watching your video for about a year and I really appreciate them and the work you put into them. I was wondering if you could do an addendum video where you push the glue chuck to its breaking point to see how much force you can actually apply to it?
+Michael Jurisic That would be interesting. I will see if I can work something like that in at some point - play around with some different cut depths and see where it breaks.
Looks good Keith. With no CNC buddies close I'd wind up drilling them myself...but thats the fun part right? LOL
Colin
+CompEdgeX You have a strange sense of fun there Colin..... ;-)
I would have tack welded the six disks together then mounted them in the four jaw chuck and bored the id. Then drilled the the three holes mounting holes. I would have then separated them and face one face of each disk. I would then counter bore the holes from the rough side to the correct depth (measuring from the finished face). I would have then made an arbor to use to turn the OD and face off to the correct thickness. The screws would be also faced but you would then use the same screws to face off the other five.
+Tom Jervis Many ways to skin a cat!
+Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org
Yes. There's the right way 'safe' and then there's your way! Lol.
I'm in the same situation with my dividing head and was really hoping you'd show how to drill the holes.
I plan on using the dividing head to make its own plates. I wrote a program to generate a pdf template that I can transfer the holes to some 1/4" ply by hand using the drill press. Then I'll use the wood plate to transfer the holes to the metal plate. I figure with a 40:1 reduction the final plate will be close enough even if the wood template is off a bit. It should be ~1:1600 error on the final part.
+aallwwkk I do exactly what you plan to do, except no plywood involved. I wrote a program (in PostScript) to generate a full-size template. I glue that to the blank with contact cement. I use an optical center punch to center-punch the holes. Then step-drill to final size. It is very tedious to centerpunch all the holes, but the optical centerpunch is very accurate. Since I built my own dividing head with an oddball worm ratio there is no way I can use commercial plates. So far it has worked.
+aallwwkk As long as you can keep holes on the circle very accurately, I think that what you describe will work fine. When I made that plate many years ago, we used a rotary table to make sure we were always on the same circle, but I agree that a tiny error in the angle of any particular hole will not matter - as long as you error is not multiplied from one hole to another.
Exactly. That is why I use my Veritas optical center punch (and a lot of care) to make my plates. As you said, tedious.
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org thanks for the reply. how accurate do you think it need to be? say the holes were off 0.015". with a 1:40 ratio the final plate would be off 0.0004" and then the final transfer to the work from the plate would be off 0.00001". even if the hole was off .25" that's only 0.006" on the final plate and 0.0002" on the work. seems like you could just get in the general area is have it work unless I'm missing something?
Sigh. There are several ways to make dividing plates without CNC.or a DRO. One way is to use a broken bandsaw blade, which you wrap around a wooden circle sized to acommodate the number of teeth you need. Another way is to get CAD to make you a full-size template. Centerpunch and drill. It is nice to know that any error you make will be reduced by the worm ratio, So a 0.1 mm error will actually be (for a 40:1 worm) a .0025 mm error -- neglibile.
Thanks for sharing !
I've seen these techniques thanks to Clickspring as well. What I didn't understand is why you shaved the edge of the plate instead of dividing the outer edge off with a slow plunge cut into the face. You could have then cleaned the edge up as normal. Just wondering...maybe you were worried that the amount of force on the face plate would break the glue free? Not sure...just wondering. I bet that could have saved you a ton of time.
+WreckDiver99 The problem with a trepanning cut is that you really need to have a cutter for the specific diameter you are cutting. I could have hand ground one out of HSS, which would have taken about as long as it took me to just turn them down or I could have spent a bunch of money on a tool that I would have likely never used again. If this had been a production job of many, many parts, it would make more sense. And it was a good opportunity to show off the "glue chuck"!
Maybe I'm not clear on my terminology....why not take a dividing tool and plunge it into the face approximately 100 thousanths away from final OD and part an outer ring off. Wouldn't that have saved multiple edge passes, and therefore quite a bit of time? After that first trim you could have then done 2 or 3 final trims to get to your final OD. I'm not sure of the terminology as I have never operated a lathe and am trying to learn. I've seen ClickSpring do exactly what I'm attempting to describe here (and apparently failing miserably). LOL.
hi kieth I'm a new hobby machinist and I'm doing some gear cutting with my 40:1 dividing head on my mill. but I don't have all the plates to compleat a set so I would like to make the ones I don't have. I understand what you said about dividing the number of holes you want into 360 and using the rotary table no problem there but what I don't get is how do I dertermine what the pin hole diameter is for each ring of holes having 5 or 6 rings of holes on a plate? some heads up on this would be great kieth. keep the vids coming kieth really enjoy your channel.
+Jamie Buckley The diameter of each ring is totally irrelevant - it does not matter what that is.
Could you not have used a center compression chuck? Kinda like a Dremel tool where you put the disk in the chuck and tighten the bolt in the center to compress the center to fit the hole in your disk.
Nice job!
+phooesnax Thank you!
Today, I have one Model H Dividing Head with 5 disk. I want to know if it is possible to make a gear wifh 127 teeth. For me it's possible because I can make a 120 divisions. But with the additionnal crank I think it's possible to make 127 but do you have a process for that