Thanks David, for another video episode featuring the traditional side-by-side game gun. I've owned a 12 bore 1968 Webley & Scott model 700 with 28" barrels since my youth, and fifty years later, with proper care and maintenance by English gunsmiths over that time, it still performs flawlessly. For some time, I admired the rounded-action Italian Bertuzzi Orione and Abbiatico & Salvinelli Avantis guns - especially in 28 and 20 bore, but could never afford one. Then, I discovered the new AyA #4 Round Action. Apparently AyA designed this model to compete with best quality Italian rounded-action boxlocks, albeit at a more competitive price point. With full coverage coin finished hand engraving, stunning wood, stocked to my dimensions, articulated front trigger, meticulous fit and finish, wonderful balance at the hinge pin, and weighing six pounds with 28" barrels proofed for high-performance steel shot, my new #4 rounded-action is not only 'future proof' and handsome, but wonderful to handle and shoot too. I can carry it for walked-up shooting over my English setter's points with zero fatigue. I've shot at least a thousand rounds of 24 oz. target loads at my local clays course, and that AyA has been the epitome of reliability. So, "why kill a beautiful bird with an ugly gun?" Do it with style - a SxS game gun!
Nice video, love the effort to keep SxS history alive. I have both new (CZ sharptail & Beretta Parallelo) and vintage (90yr + B Halliday 16g & Browning BSS 12g). The moderns are fun to shoot but the old classics just handle so much better, less recoil and easier to swing. The moderns feel like O/U with the barrels rotated but the vintage just so different to handle on a walk up day here in America . Keep the videos coming! Hope to see you visit America for some content in 2025
I own 5 side by sides. a C.G. Bonehill 10 bore " Hammer gun" with 32 inch barrels made in Birmingham circa 1875. A Fox Sterlingworth made 1911 in 12 bore. A Fox 16 bore and a Borgeshi 12 bore " Hammer gun " made 1964 and lastly a Remington 1894 12 bore " Live Pidgeon gun. I hunt with all of them from upland to waterfowl. They are all splendid and still bring home game every hunting season.
I grew up shooting side by sides, I shoot mostly with a W.W. Greener Empire Model 30” boxlock with Greener side safety, and Prince of wales stock. Also have a AYA yeoman with beaver tail forend, prince of wales stock, 28” barrels and a Baikal side by side 16 bore with 26.5” barrels, pistol grip 😄. I love side by sides, have a Beretta semi auto which I never use!!
I have a lesser known Spanish gun hand made in 1964. It is a 6 1/2 lb 12 gauge Francisco Anitua. It is a field grade gun but still has the nice touches of engraved screw heads and tasteful engraving. I paid $150 for it 35 years ago and I won't ever sell it. I learned the hard way that it was not made to shoot heavy loads, but it is still perfect for those fast flying grouse.
👍 Very good comparisons of these shotguns. I have 4 side-by-sides. 1 new modern CZ (20 gauge), 1 second-hand market modern AyA (12 gauge), 1 Italian replica of an 19th Century American Coach Gun (12 gauge), and 1 Italian made replica of an 18th Century flintlock (20 gauge). All serve me well depending upon my mood and task. But, I agree with you, if I could only keep 1 it would most likely be the AyA. The CZ would be a close second choice. I really do enjoy your videos - very informative.
Hi David, so glad I found your channel. I have been shooting game with an old Italian SXS for a few years now, before that I shot Down the line with a Perazzi. Anyhow, thanks for showing me what I have been doing wrong for so long. I have been practicing my NEW mount since I found your channel on Monday and will be putting it to use tomorrow for the first time. Cheek, Cheek, Cheek.
A second hand AyA Number 2 is the best value gun on the market. I like my English guns and using the low price that is current to search out particular makes for my collection.
Yes the AYA is excellent value, you can find nice SXS Beretta's around also, but if you can find a nice Winchester model 21 then you have a winner also.
I’ve just purchased a WW Greener Empire to enjoy learning to shoot a traditional gun for game and simulated field. I think well made traditional gun is better than the modern plastic and aluminium
Webley and Scott produced a lot of 700 series boxlocks in the white for a lot of other provincial makers, also produced them with H&H on, after Holland and Holland purchased the company. The AYA's are quality guns, and to be fair, always marketed as such, I always much preferred the number 1 to the 2, just more pleasing on the eye, gold washed locks etc. I shoot more and more walked up, as such I don't need or want an ejector, hence I shoot a number 3, same as 4 without the ejector, sadly dropped from their line up years ago, a very nice gun, that has given me no grief.
I have 6 x 12 gauge shotguns, 3 of which are side by sides. One of which was given to me by my English Grand father when I was 12 in 1964 & have used it for years. The gun was made in1916 in London & was sold by Agnew & sons 79 Exeter St London but they had guns made for them so I dont know who made it, It Is a very modern gun for Its age with lots of engraving, Indervidual ejection & solid steel barrels. my latest S.B.S is an Akar Churchill with 30" barrels & 5 chokes, a nice gun & the other S.B.S I have is my bush basher a 28'barrel, Boito.
Problem with all modern SxS is to high in the comb, no offset. Sure they can be used by all, but fit very few well. Made for people with no necks and narrow between the eyes. I guess fine if your used to a modern O/U, but if you are a upland hunter they just don't come up right for 90% of us. Nothing worse than shooting a shotgun that you have to jam your cheek into the stock, and contort your neck to get a decent sight picture. This is where many old English guns excel.
Started shooting SXS a few years ago. I'm going to say I now prefer them over O/U and AL guns. I have in my stable 2 Parkers, 2 L.C Smiths, a Fox and Weatherby. I'm looking at getting at least one proper British built gun, one on my list is a Cogswell 20 bore hammer gun that's Nitro proofed.
I am a very proud owner of a WW Greener made somewhere around the turn of the century. Still use it, mainly for called foxes. Pleasant to shoot with 28gram loads, a bit brutal with 32 gram. I will not use any heavier. Problem is it's such a beautiful old gun I feel bad using it, I sure don't be rough with it. I probably don't deserve it.
“Keep it in the cabinet….”. Not blxxdy likely! They were made to used and mine get used all the time. Beautifully built and dynamic unlike the awkward lumps that are most modern O/U’s.
Best video yet really interesting well done David. I'd like to try a sxs I think if was to buy one I'd go modern just because of the steal shot and I think a bit more familiar so might help shooting it
I applaud you for your championing of the side by side gun - they are what gentlemen shoot with. Other than that, much of what you say is claptrap. Early SxS guns were most commonly 30" barrels because it was a carry over from black powder muzzle loaders. Shorter barrels came later. Many many top quality English guns have gone to America already and we are left with very slim pickings nowadays. Even now good examples go because their use here is out of fashion. It's too late to get something nice for little money, you are very likely to end up with a clapped out liability. English boxlocks may still be had inexpensively. The first gun has a semi pistol grip stock, not a POW. As for AYA's.. they have had problems with their hammers not being properly hardened and consequently mushrooming and I find them barrel heavy. Some are OK but they aren't great.
Brilliant video David! I could not agree more about English guns coming back in favour. The English 'feel' cannot be bettered, and quality will always show through.
Funny I would have said that the most common English gun is 30". I have only been shooting for 18 months -20 months the last 6 of which has been 100% sxs so am always looking at forums on lines gun sales and auction sites. My 1909 Greener is 30, my 56 William Powell pigeon gun is 30 and 90%+ of the English guns for sale are 30. The Spanish seem to like 28's. My two German SxS's are 30 too.
I was going to say the same. My 1909 London made box lock ejector SxS is a 30 inch barrel and the stock is quite high in the comb pretty much matching modern standards also for length of pull. I have the cert. of origin on it so I know it was not altered, other than a rubber butt pad installed along the way. Now those into the Churchill style of shooting or those getting grouse guns made usually went for the shorter barrels of 25 to 27 inch. The place I see those really low in the comb stocks is in pre 1890 or so hammer guns.
Yes I agree, when the breech loading 12-bore became common in the1860s the barrel length was predominantly 30" up until around 1910. After this you get more of a mixture of 30", 28", 26" and 25".
Now steel cartridges for 65mm guns are available shooters will come back to English made guns. If older guns could be re-barreled at a reasonable cost many old guns could be saved, this work could be done in Italy or Turkey. I have seen some good scores at sporting with a s/s, don't bury your head on the comb as said. All my field shooting is done with my Boswell, Bland & BSA still going at 100yrs old.
I was happy to have been able to recently pick up a beautiful near mint pre war Birmingham box lock for basically the cost of a cheap mossberg 500. Why you guys are dumping these fabulous old works of art is baffling to us on the better side of the pond. 😁👍🏼
Been shooting around 16 months and have never shot with a Browning or Beretta. I have used a mates Yildiz Pro and enjoy shooting ATA Supersport. So my question is, if I spend £1000s more on a gun would that improve my enjoyment? Is there a serious argument over the reliability of the ATAs or Yildiz?
@@ronaldjohnson1474 Ronald, out of interest, what was the 1st bolt action shotgun? I owned one quite a while ago. You will come across the Marlin Goose guns quite often in the UK, all other makes and models in comparison are quite rare.
@@beeboop1726 I am getting 2 of our SxS's opened to 1/4:1/2 so we can shoot standard steel at one particular ground we go to. My go to clay gun is getting opened up to 3/8:5/8 but most of our grounds at the moment take lead.
@@scottbrooks7978 good idea Scott, I got a cheap AYA yeoman opened up 2 years ago from 1/2 and full to 1/4 and 3/8, I still haven’t had to use steel yet but I am prepared now.
@@beeboop1726 I am going to hold off on my English guns for the momnet and keep them original as long as positible. The Greener is a gun my ggrandfather bought new and I have just bought the William Powell. The Greener is 1/2:3/4 and shoots really well as it is - though even just using subsonic rounds the poor thing got a bit of a fright and now has a loose top rib. It hadn;t been shot for more than 50 years before I put a slab of cartridges through it. It was checked before I fired a shot too. I haven't shot the William Powell yet and thats full:full. I currently shoot an average of just over 60% at clay comps all over the place shooting a Simson 35/70 full:full with Trust 28g 1295fps loads so the tight chokes don't worry me. I am hoping to crack 70 with the 3/8:5/6 chokes though :)
A decently made AYA is attractive, but dreaming is about a true english gun. The latter versions from Turkey are completely no go for me. An Italian budget gun? No, I don’t think so.
Thanks David, for another video episode featuring the traditional side-by-side game gun. I've owned a 12 bore 1968 Webley & Scott model 700 with 28" barrels since my youth, and fifty years later, with proper care and maintenance by English gunsmiths over that time, it still performs flawlessly. For some time, I admired the rounded-action Italian Bertuzzi Orione and Abbiatico & Salvinelli Avantis guns - especially in 28 and 20 bore, but could never afford one. Then, I discovered the new AyA #4 Round Action. Apparently AyA designed this model to compete with best quality Italian rounded-action boxlocks, albeit at a more competitive price point. With full coverage coin finished hand engraving, stunning wood, stocked to my dimensions, articulated front trigger, meticulous fit and finish, wonderful balance at the hinge pin, and weighing six pounds with 28" barrels proofed for high-performance steel shot, my new #4 rounded-action is not only 'future proof' and handsome, but wonderful to handle and shoot too. I can carry it for walked-up shooting over my English setter's points with zero fatigue. I've shot at least a thousand rounds of 24 oz. target loads at my local clays course, and that AyA has been the epitome of reliability. So, "why kill a beautiful bird with an ugly gun?" Do it with style - a SxS game gun!
Nice video, love the effort to keep SxS history alive. I have both new (CZ sharptail & Beretta Parallelo) and vintage (90yr + B Halliday 16g & Browning BSS 12g). The moderns are fun to shoot but the old classics just handle so much better, less recoil and easier to swing. The moderns feel like O/U with the barrels rotated but the vintage just so different to handle on a walk up day here in America . Keep the videos coming! Hope to see you visit America for some content in 2025
I own 5 side by sides. a C.G. Bonehill 10 bore " Hammer gun" with 32 inch barrels made in Birmingham circa 1875. A Fox Sterlingworth made 1911 in 12 bore. A Fox 16 bore and a Borgeshi 12 bore " Hammer gun " made 1964 and lastly a Remington 1894 12 bore " Live Pidgeon gun. I hunt with all of them from upland to waterfowl. They are all splendid and still bring home game every hunting season.
I grew up shooting side by sides, I shoot mostly with a W.W. Greener Empire Model 30” boxlock with Greener side safety, and Prince of wales stock. Also have a AYA yeoman with beaver tail forend, prince of wales stock, 28” barrels and a Baikal side by side 16 bore with 26.5” barrels, pistol grip 😄. I love side by sides, have a Beretta semi auto which I never use!!
I have a lesser known Spanish gun hand made in 1964. It is a 6 1/2 lb 12 gauge Francisco Anitua. It is a field grade gun but still has the nice touches of engraved screw heads and tasteful engraving. I paid $150 for it 35 years ago and I won't ever sell it. I learned the hard way that it was not made to shoot heavy loads, but it is still perfect for those fast flying grouse.
The Yildiz Elegant A3 Side by Side is an absolute winner
👍 Very good comparisons of these shotguns. I have 4 side-by-sides. 1 new modern CZ (20 gauge), 1 second-hand market modern AyA (12 gauge), 1 Italian replica of an 19th Century American Coach Gun (12 gauge), and 1 Italian made replica of an 18th Century flintlock (20 gauge). All serve me well depending upon my mood and task. But, I agree with you, if I could only keep 1 it would most likely be the AyA. The CZ would be a close second choice.
I really do enjoy your videos - very informative.
I LOVE my AYA’s - the are just so nice to shot and perfect for Quick action in the thick forrest!!
Looks great and handles perfect for me!! 💪🏻
Hi David, so glad I found your channel. I have been shooting game with an old Italian SXS for a few years now, before that I shot Down the line with a Perazzi. Anyhow, thanks for showing me what I have been doing wrong for so long. I have been practicing my NEW mount since I found your channel on Monday and will be putting it to use tomorrow for the first time. Cheek, Cheek, Cheek.
A second hand AyA Number 2 is the best value gun on the market. I like my English guns and using the low price that is current to search out particular makes for my collection.
Great video. Been looking forward to this.
Yes the AYA is excellent value, you can find nice SXS Beretta's around also, but if you can find a nice Winchester model 21 then you have a winner also.
I’ve just purchased a WW Greener Empire to enjoy learning to shoot a traditional gun for game and simulated field. I think well made traditional gun is better than the modern plastic and aluminium
Webley and Scott produced a lot of 700 series boxlocks in the white for a lot of other provincial makers, also produced them with H&H on, after Holland and Holland purchased the company.
The AYA's are quality guns, and to be fair, always marketed as such, I always much preferred the number 1 to the 2, just more pleasing on the eye, gold washed locks etc.
I shoot more and more walked up, as such I don't need or want an ejector, hence I shoot a number 3, same as 4 without the ejector, sadly dropped from their line up years ago, a very nice gun, that has given me no grief.
I have 6 x 12 gauge shotguns, 3 of which are side by sides. One of which was given to me by my English Grand father when I was 12 in 1964 & have used it for years. The gun was made in1916 in London & was sold by Agnew & sons 79 Exeter St London but they had guns made for them so I dont know who made it, It Is a very modern gun for Its age with lots of engraving, Indervidual ejection & solid steel barrels. my latest S.B.S is an Akar Churchill with 30" barrels & 5 chokes, a nice gun & the other S.B.S I have is my bush basher a 28'barrel, Boito.
Problem with all modern SxS is to high in the comb, no offset. Sure they can be used by all, but fit very few well. Made for people with no necks and narrow between the eyes. I guess fine if your used to a modern O/U, but if you are a upland hunter they just don't come up right for 90% of us. Nothing worse than shooting a shotgun that you have to jam your cheek into the stock, and contort your neck to get a decent sight picture. This is where many old English guns excel.
Started shooting SXS a few years ago. I'm going to say I now prefer them over O/U and AL guns. I have in my stable 2 Parkers, 2 L.C Smiths, a Fox and Weatherby. I'm looking at getting at least one proper British built gun, one on my list is a Cogswell 20 bore hammer gun that's Nitro proofed.
I am a very proud owner of a WW Greener made somewhere around the turn of the century. Still use it, mainly for called foxes. Pleasant to shoot with 28gram loads, a bit brutal with 32 gram. I will not use any heavier. Problem is it's such a beautiful old gun I feel bad using it, I sure don't be rough with it. I probably don't deserve it.
Great video again. Yes sbs all the way. Aya no2👌
I’ve a W&S700 which I got for a very reasonable price over 10yrs ago but I doubt it’ll climb much in value especially with the proposed lead ban
“Keep it in the cabinet….”. Not blxxdy likely! They were made to used and mine get used all the time. Beautifully built and dynamic unlike the awkward lumps that are most modern O/U’s.
Best video yet really interesting well done David. I'd like to try a sxs I think if was to buy one I'd go modern just because of the steal shot and I think a bit more familiar so might help shooting it
I applaud you for your championing of the side by side gun - they are what gentlemen shoot with. Other than that, much of what you say is claptrap. Early SxS guns were most commonly 30" barrels because it was a carry over from black powder muzzle loaders. Shorter barrels came later. Many many top quality English guns have gone to America already and we are left with very slim pickings nowadays. Even now good examples go because their use here is out of fashion. It's too late to get something nice for little money, you are very likely to end up with a clapped out liability. English boxlocks may still be had inexpensively. The first gun has a semi pistol grip stock, not a POW. As for AYA's.. they have had problems with their hammers not being properly hardened and consequently mushrooming and I find them barrel heavy. Some are OK but they aren't great.
I can't afford a English side by side but I love my AYA double trigger straight stock 20 Bore
If you can't afford the 'Big guys', AYA are outstanding! I won't part with mine.
Brilliant video David! I could not agree more about English guns coming back in favour. The English 'feel' cannot be bettered, and quality will always show through.
Funny I would have said that the most common English gun is 30". I have only been shooting for 18 months -20 months the last 6 of which has been 100% sxs so am always looking at forums on lines gun sales and auction sites. My 1909 Greener is 30, my 56 William Powell pigeon gun is 30 and 90%+ of the English guns for sale are 30. The Spanish seem to like 28's. My two German SxS's are 30 too.
I was going to say the same. My 1909 London made box lock ejector SxS is a 30 inch barrel and the stock is quite high in the comb pretty much matching modern standards also for length of pull. I have the cert. of origin on it so I know it was not altered, other than a rubber butt pad installed along the way. Now those into the Churchill style of shooting or those getting grouse guns made usually went for the shorter barrels of 25 to 27 inch. The place I see those really low in the comb stocks is in pre 1890 or so hammer guns.
Yes I agree, when the breech loading 12-bore became common in the1860s the barrel length was predominantly 30" up until around 1910. After this you get more of a mixture of 30", 28", 26" and 25".
Best for value is fabarm classis 12
I can't see the value of the older gun increasing if they are unable to shoot shell given the looming ban on lead.
Now steel cartridges for 65mm guns are available shooters will come back to English made guns.
If older guns could be re-barreled at a reasonable cost many old guns could be saved, this work could be
done in Italy or Turkey.
I have seen some good scores at sporting with a s/s, don't bury your head on the comb as said.
All my field shooting is done with my Boswell, Bland & BSA still going at 100yrs old.
Can't beat an AHFox Sterlingworth
I was happy to have been able to recently pick up a beautiful near mint pre war Birmingham box lock for basically the cost of a cheap mossberg 500. Why you guys are dumping these fabulous old works of art is baffling to us on the better side of the pond. 😁👍🏼
Been shooting around 16 months and have never shot with a Browning or Beretta. I have used a mates Yildiz Pro and enjoy shooting ATA Supersport. So my question is, if I spend £1000s more on a gun would that improve my enjoyment? Is there a serious argument over the reliability of the ATAs or Yildiz?
What is the right cost for second hand webley and lang in good condition
What about the c z bob, white and sharp tail
Probably the AYA.
Would have a side by side no problem. 👍🏻👍🏻
History:
Forgetting Brownings semi automatic shotgun in 1898 👍
@@beeboop1726 Absolutely right, but the inertia gun wasn't patented until 1900. And, the first O/U wasn't until 1923.
@@beeboop1726 Corrections noted, thanks.
@@ronaldjohnson1474 Ronald, out of interest, what was the 1st bolt action shotgun? I owned one quite a while ago. You will come across the Marlin Goose guns quite often in the UK, all other makes and models in comparison are quite rare.
The problem being in 20 years time when we all have to use steel you won't be able to use English guns
That is simply incorrect, you can use standard steel as long as the gun is still in proof. You just need to have chokes no tighter than 1/2.
@@beeboop1726 I am getting 2 of our SxS's opened to 1/4:1/2 so we can shoot standard steel at one particular ground we go to. My go to clay gun is getting opened up to 3/8:5/8 but most of our grounds at the moment take lead.
@@scottbrooks7978 good idea Scott, I got a cheap AYA yeoman opened up 2 years ago from 1/2 and full to 1/4 and 3/8, I still haven’t had to use steel yet but I am prepared now.
@@beeboop1726 I am going to hold off on my English guns for the momnet and keep them original as long as positible. The Greener is a gun my ggrandfather bought new and I have just bought the William Powell. The Greener is 1/2:3/4 and shoots really well as it is - though even just using subsonic rounds the poor thing got a bit of a fright and now has a loose top rib. It hadn;t been shot for more than 50 years before I put a slab of cartridges through it. It was checked before I fired a shot too. I haven't shot the William Powell yet and thats full:full. I currently shoot an average of just over 60% at clay comps all over the place shooting a Simson 35/70 full:full with Trust 28g 1295fps loads so the tight chokes don't worry me. I am hoping to crack 70 with the 3/8:5/6 chokes though :)
Oh yes you will!
Or a aya yeoman for like £100
A decently made AYA is attractive, but dreaming is about a true english gun.
The latter versions from Turkey are completely no go for me.
An Italian budget gun? No, I don’t think so.