#inbreeding
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มี.ค. 2021
- #inbreeding,#linebreeding,#outcrossing,#InbreedingCoefficient #Homozygotes #Heterozygotes,#germanshepherddaily #gsdofinstagram #germanshepherds #germanshepherdlife #vongonthaus #germanshepherdnation #gsd #germanshepherdpuppy #germanshepherdsonline #germanshepherdonline #germanshepherdlove #dog #germanshepherdlovers #germanshepherd #gsdlove #gsdpuppy #germanshepherddogs #germanshepherdcentral #germanshepherdofinstagram #germanshepherdlover #germanshepherd_corner #dogsofinstagram #germanshepherdsofinstagram #germanshepherdsdaily #germanshepherdworld #germanshepherdmix #gsdofig #germanshepherddog #germanshepherdpuppies #germanshepherdsofig #gsdstagram #populationgenetics #Kinship #Inbreeding #VonGontaHaus #Genetics #phenotype #genotype #narrowSenseHeritability #broadSenseHeritability #breeding #selection #traits #breedingValue #population #estimatedBreedingValues #Prepotency #pedigree #DNA #quantitativeTrait #populationGenetics #pureLine #selectiveBreeding #artificialSelection #phenotypicTraits #breeds #animalBreeding
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CONTACT INFO:
EMAIL: VonGontaHaus@gmail.com
PHONE: +1 (413) 679-7994
website: vongontahaus.com
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Intro video:
• #inbreeding and #lineb...
Part1:
• #LineBreeding and Inbr...
Part2:
• #linebreeding Breedin...
Part3:
• #linebreeding Breedin...
Part4:
• #linebreeding Breedin...
COI calculator:
www.nabssar.org/coi_calculato...
Further Reading:
If you are interested in learning more about these subjects, consult the following books:
Abnormalities of Companion Animals: Analysis of Heritability
C.W. Foley, J.F. Lasley, and G.D. Osweiler, Iowa State University Press, Ames, Iowa. 1979.
Genetics for Dog Breeders
F.B. Hutt, W.H. Freeman Co, San Francisco, California. 1979.
Veterinary Genetics
F. W. Nicholas, Clarendon Press, Oxford England. 1987.
Genetics for Dog Breeders
R. Robinson, Pergamon Press, Oxford England. 1990.
Genetics of the Dog (equally applicable to cats & other animals)
M.B. Willis, Howell Book House, New York, New York. 1989.
reference websites:
www.instituteofcaninebiology....
bloodlines.net/highflyer/coef...
davidcavill.wordpress.com/a-b...
more reference websites:
www.siriusdog.com/bell.htm
www.flash.net/~dby/practicalge...
netpets.com/dogs/reference/gen...
bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/I...
www.vin.com/apputil/content/d...
_______________________________________
CONTACT INFO:
EMAIL: VonGontaHaus@gmail.com
PHONE: +1 (413) 679-7994
website: vongontahaus.com
________________________________________
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This was a very informative presentation; sharing true insight on the inner working of inbreeding/line breeding. Successfully line breeding of the GSD is a true art; in weighing the both the positives & negatives before doing a breeding. Prioritizing health & temperament, of the litter, as 2 key breeding objectives; makes the decision making process that much easier. As a breeder, in regard to line breeding ; I've never taken foreseeable risks when breeding dogs. I like to stay in the 4th & 5th generation; yes, playing it safe.
thank you
This video has lots info n awesome explained..This man is smart n must read alot ..thanks for info sir
My pleasure
Thank you for sharing the information Alex. Watched it several times. Very interesting in deed and very well explained.
thank you
An excellent video, we learnt a lot because it was so well and easily explained.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you
Great info.thanks
thank you
Thank you!
Excellent explanation sir
Thanks for liking
Bb-x-Bb equals possibilities of any of the following
BB or bb or another Bb same as the parents. It looks like you are doing a lot of the same study I did years ago.
One of my buddies brought a daughter out of Harley Vom Fox back and bred it back to him twice now. The litters we're both phenomenal. I got two females from the last litter. They are still very much different from each other. I am currently raising them and will add them into the breeding program when they get old enough. The whole litter was very big strong puppies. Strong nerve and strong defense as well as very intelligent. They are female versions of him.
The closest I did was 3-3 (same grandfather) in same litter and the closest I plan to do is a 2-3, using the so called "Bracket's Formula". The coefficient of relationship in a 2-3 is 37.5% (but a grandfather back to his own grand daughter, which is a 1-3, the coefficient of relationship is 62.5%. A father bred to his own daughter is as COR of 75%. By contrast, using COI instead of COR, Using Hardman's equation, not Wright's he coefficient of inheritance, as opposed to relationship, for a uncle to niece mating is 9.63% and first cousins is 6.25%, and grandfather to granddaughter is 12.5%. People don't realize the COI and COR are to be understood differently and that COR shows just how close the relationship actually is. I think COR is making things clearer in most people's minds. I did genetic testing using Embark and both were of excellent type before doing the 2-3. You are a very knowledgeable breeder, but for most people, such breeding to "set type" is not recommended unless people know the lines and several generations of those lines before attempting things like this. :)
I breed show chickens, we can inbreed, and we do get poor offspring as well as good offspring. The thing that makes it easy for us is that the poor birds go into the freezer, where as with dogs, it would not be socially proper to eat the poor offspring.
You can do with bird genetics things you can't do with mammal genetics. You want to skip a generation or two if possible.
@@VonGontaHaus Well yes chickens can tolerate more inbreeding but that does not mean it is good in it's self. You need a good reason to inbreed like intensifying a particular trait. But if you have poor birds, then to inbreed them is to intensify the poor traits. So in the beginning it is best to have a wider genetic base for a number of generations and breed lots of birds, pick out the good ones and you can breed those a little closer. I have had good luck with half sibs for a cross or two and then out again. I have 3 lines and about every 4 or 5 years, I bring in new blood from a breeder who has the same main line as me. Just watch your birds because vigour is so important.
Upcoming litter puppy announcements:
th-cam.com/video/8UPhLqRS06I/w-d-xo.html
I'm into racing pigeons and I was wondering what your thoughts are on scatter breeding? For example, packing as many unrelated winners/champions into a pedigree by breeding winners to winners over a period of time. Is this a good method to reproduce more winners or more hybrid vigour?
And the traits we're breeding for are birds that can fly against headwinds and win at the 350 mile race.
Mammal genetics don't allow for the exact same methods as bird genetics. We can't do with mammals what we do with birds, it's too risky. I don't know if the genetics of birds and dogs work similarly but in general concepts, it should be indeed similar. I would say that scatter breeding, is what most people do. They try to keep the COI in a pedigree as low as possible, fearing genetic diseases without truly understanding that if done correctly, line breeding has created some of the best and most beautiful breeds of horses, dogs, birds, and other animals on the planet. Without line breeding, there would be no breeds! Many dogs are bred to the "hot champion" of the moment. People feel that by breeding champion to champion they will get good results. What they forget is training is part of the equation and training doesn't genetically pass, only innate characteristics pass. You can never achieve any genetic goal and improve the breed, any breed for that matter, without having common ancestors on top and bottom of pedigree. It's just not possible. If there is not genetic relationship between both parents, you have no characteristics you can safely inherit and pass along.
@@VonGontaHaus very interesting! From what I've seen most of the race winners are mostly crosses. You'll get some line breds but it's very rare to see inbreds being competitive at all. I know in Europe they don't practice much inbreeding unless they're selling to the the US cause that is popular here. Europeans are more focused on breeding the best to the best and they're racing against 10,000+ birds a week.
@@00dreamer00 a cross would be impossible if there were no "lines" to cross with. In other words, you have to have two lines in order to outcross, otherwise, what are you outcrossing? You are describing a concept called "nicking the line" by outcrossing and sometimes, it works very well.
In 28:20, you need to back breeding to the 1st dog/rott for 7/8 correct?
a 7/8th dog is the product of a father to daughter breeding, and breeding the outcome, which is the grand-daughter of the sire, back to her own grandfather (which is also her father). That is one way to do it. The other way to do it, is to breed half siblings from a common male to each other, and then breed the outcome of the F1 generation to produce an F2 generation, and then that outcome, back to the great grandfather (at this point). This is explained in this video:
th-cam.com/video/QpNYbVQ1bsM/w-d-xo.html. This results in an animal at 50%+25%+12.5%=87.5%, or a so called 7/8th dog. This is NOT recommended for dogs that are already pure blooded, because the chance for genetic diseases by doubling up recessive genes is very, very high, although such an animal, if bred to any other ,non related animal, would be highly pre-potent and pass itself no matter what it is bred to. These techniques are only used in creating new breeds, and not to be used with existing breeds. You might wind up with a completely sterile animal, so be very careful, as sterility goes up as inbreeding goes up. It can also be used to create what is called "Seed stock" in herd of cattle and you create a bull for that herd in this manner. This video explains the alternative method: th-cam.com/video/QpNYbVQ1bsM/w-d-xo.html. Please click like and subscribe for more videos.
please watch this video: th-cam.com/video/BH2IwDTF2dk/w-d-xo.html
this is video 3 in the series that explains how to create a line: th-cam.com/video/v-yU0nXU-xc/w-d-xo.html
When breeding brother and sister together doesn’t that bring health issues like cancer and things if you at the point of pre potency when a dog can throw his phenotype?
If you are new to breeding, I don't advocate ANY form of inbreeding or line breeding. If you breed dogs with a propensity for heart disease, or cancer, to each other, even if you were not inbreeding, if you breed dogs with genetic predisposition to diseases, you will in fact, get diseases! The inbreeding didn't cause the diseases. You must choose the healthiest animals possible. I'm not advocating full brother to full sister mating. Half sibling mating, another form of inbreeding, is also too tight in my opinion. A 2-3 breeding can create pre-potency. (half uncle to niece). In other words, it's a grandchild of the same dog on one side, and a child of that very same dog on the other side. Genetic testing has to be done and only very good specimens need to be chosen. A dog of same phenotype to same phenotype can be bred without inbreeding as well. You can get a consistent litter by breeding phenotype alone, without genotype. For example, you breed two dogs that are black together that have heavy bone structure: same phenotype. This gives the illusion of a consistent litter, because both parents already start off looking similar, but this will not be a passable characteristic beyond that first litter. By contrast, let's say you start off with similar looking dogs that have a common grandfather, and you breed them together. Now you have both in play, phenotype and genotype. Pre-potency means that the allele pairs are doubled up in one parent (usually the father) and when he is bred to a completely unrelated female, even though technically both parents are 50%/50% of each child, the parent that has tight inbreeding, or loose inbreeding, his characteristics will outpower his partner and the puppies will look more like him, than like her. In other words, you pair an inbred dog or a line bred dog, to a dog with an open pedigree, his genes have been "concentrated" and thus, have a stronger influence over a non-inbred dog. That is what pre-potency means.
But you are not just breeding pedigrees. You must selection test the dogs involved. So because some puppy is a grandchild of famous dog X, and another puppy is great-grand-child of famous dog X, and I pair them together, hoping to produce some qualities as dog X, guess what? If they themselves don't have his qualities, he will not be reproduced despite being a grandfather on both sides!
. For the 3 most common line breeding strategies (which is a milder version of inbreeding, please see this video:)
th-cam.com/video/BH2IwDTF2dk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Eg69nMN7yVZyW2U8
Please read this article for The formula I describe:
breedingbetterdogs.com/article/brackets-formula#:~:text=The%20formula%20Brackett%20preferred%20concentrated%20genes%20in%20a,sire%20and%20the%20dam%27s%20side%20of%20the%20pedigree
@@VonGontaHaus Thank you for sharing you knowledge with me on this.
Hi if a full brother and sister bred together. Are the pups 75% the sire of the siblings? Is that correct? Thanks
The COI for full brother to sister is 25%. This is a 2-2 breeding. Half sibling the COI is 12.5%. Mother to son or Father to Daughter it's also 25%. (this is 1-2 or 2-1) breeding. Please don't confuse COI with COR. No, you should not do such a breeding with an established breed. The goal of this video is NOT to justify inbreeding. It is simply for educational purpose on genetics involved.
@@VonGontaHaus what I mean is do the inbred pups share 75% relationship with each grandparent lol
@@thomasmccready2581 If you breed grandparent to grand child the COI is 12.5%. This is a 3-1 breeding or a 1-3 breeding. No, pups don't share 75% of each grandparent in any circumstance.
@@VonGontaHaus sorry for the confusion..I meant how much dna do the brother sister off spring share with the grandfather. Its okay..iam sure iam melting your head...haha..that's what I meant.
@@foupstersite2375 In answer to your question, there is no reason to breed full brother to full sister. For what possible reason? Absolutely no reason for it. You should NEVER breed this close. If you do any kind of inbreeding or line breeding, you must be very, very clear of what you're doing and why you're doing it. Just to do something simply because you can is not a good justification. You are asking for diseases and trouble. When you are line breeding (not inbreeding) your goal is to increase the genes of a champion dog in the pedigree. If you breed full siblings, you are increasing both set of parents and doubling up on all genes, good and bad. This means serious health bills for your puppy buyers and short lives. If you are breeding to create a new breed, not an existing breed, please check out this other video. Hope this helps.
th-cam.com/video/QpNYbVQ1bsM/w-d-xo.html
this is video3 in the series that shows the 3 systems that can be used to create a line of dogs: th-cam.com/video/BH2IwDTF2dk/w-d-xo.html
Please set me straight ! Four relevant Rottweilers ! Rottweiler A is the father of Male Rotty B and of Female Rotty C . Rottweiler B and C have different unrelated Rotty Mothers . If Rottweiler B and C ( half siblings) have a pup . Is it true that pup will be 87.5 percent of Rottweiler A ( Grand father) , as far as genes are concerned. Coming from a 12.5 percent inbreeding coefficient ? Rottweiler A is phenomenal specimen that we’d like to replicate ? Do you recommend going ahead with this breeding ?
First of all, you are describing an established breed, not creating a new breed, so breeding this close is simply not required in any fashion. I seriously advise you against this method. In general, you should stride to reduce the coefficient of inbreeding, not to increase it. This is healthier for the breed as a whole. However, in answering your question in general, for educational purposes, half siblings have a 50% Coefficient of relationship and a 12.5% Coefficient of inbreeding. Please note how coefficient of relationship and inbreeding are different numbers. You must understand COR vs COI so that the numbers make sense.
For example: Grandfather to grand daughter is a 62.5% coefficient of relationship, but a 12.5% coefficient of inbreeding. So with a grandfather to grand-daugther mating, it's one line being re-enforced, the male line, while the female line is being diminished. Half siblinlgs brings two fresh lines in, from two different momma dogs. A father to daughter mating is 75% coefficient of relationship, but 25% coefficient of inbreeding. An 87.5% dog is the result of a father-to-daugther mating and the daugther of such a mating bred back to her grandfather who is also her great grandfather. So as father, he is 50%. As grandfather, he is 25% and as great grandfather he is 12.5%, so that 50%+25%=12.5%=87.5%. In other words, an 87.5% dog is greater than grandfather bred to his own grand-daugther, which is already a very powerful inbreeding and it's already far too close. The other way to do it is half sibling marriage, which is the F1 generation, with one male bred to three different unrelated females. The output of this F1 mating is then mated to each other, to produce an F2 output of half sibling marriage, and the F2 generation crossed back to great grandfather. This is called back breeding. You need 6 to 8 years to accomplish this method, assuming you are ethical and don't breed the female dog before 2 years of age. The F1 and F2 method is a bit safer in terms of maintaining hybrid vigor, but I still advise against it. The closest mating I advise, that both maintains hybrid vigor and can "set type" is a 2-3 mating of uncle to niece. This creates a 37.5% COR and a 9.63% COI. It's the tried and true "let the father of the sire be the grandsire of the dam. Please read this article:
breedingbetterdogs.com/article/brackets-formula#:~:text=The%20formula%20Brackett%20preferred%20concentrated%20genes%20in%20a,sire%20and%20the%20dam%27s%20side%20of%20the%20pedigree
Please look at the 33:50 mark in the video. So in short, Rotti-B is half brother of his sister, Rotti-C? Correct? If I understood you correctly, don't breed half siblings B+C together. Instead, breed the female puppy, Rotti-C, to an unrelated male from a different line. Keep a daughter out of this mating and breed that daughter at 2 years of age, to Rotti-B who is her uncle. In other words, it's the daughter of the half sister bred to her half brother, not the half sister herself. So the common ancestor, Rotti-A is father on the one side, and grandfather on the female side. This is 2-3 as shown in the video. Don't go closer than this.
@@VonGontaHaus I’m ecstatic !!! Thank you so much for responding and setting me straight. You directly answered the question
@@VonGontaHaus I just read the article about breeding better dogs . As someone who loves the Rottweiler breed, I’d never want to do anything to the detriment of the breed . A very sincere thank you 🙏
please watch this in full: th-cam.com/video/BH2IwDTF2dk/w-d-xo.html
Inbreeding is when linebreeding doesn't work....
Linebreeding works, but there are few things to think about that most don't,
First of all, doubling up names on paper is not what linebreeding is, if i want to truly line-breed, I would have to select children of the dog I want to line-breed on, that carry the genetic characteristics and/or qualities of the parent I want to line-breed on to begin with, from there every step of the process depends on the qualities passed on to the next generation, and the qualities of the mating partners chosen, to simplify, if I want to line-breed on black dog as a quality, i wont select offspring for breeding that is not black( i know colors reproduce more complicated than that, but its example). In other words, simply sharing a common grandfather or great grandfather on both sides is not enough. The dogs chosen might have a common ancestor in the 3rd or 4th, or 5th generation, but they must be selection tested as having the characteristics like that dog, not just simply be grandkids of that dog.
Secondly, most of today's line-Breedings on paper are by accident, with stupid idea of outcrossing is better, and constantly outcrossing and avoiding line breeding at any and all cost, and even the more stupid idea of breeding everything in heat to a famous male, the situation has ocured that it is almost impossible not to double up names in a pedigree to a certain level. It's called the "popular sire syndrome".
breedingbetterdogs.com/article/brackets-formula#:~:text=The%20formula%20Brackett%20preferred%20concentrated%20genes%20in%20a,sire%20and%20the%20dam%27s%20side%20of%20the%20pedigree